Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode #4 with Damona Hoffman | Transcript

22.01.19

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Welcome to the Let's Talk Love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless of relationship status. We will talk about the intimate connections in our lives and the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

For those of you joining us who are single and looking for love, you are in for a treat. I am speaking with relationship expert Damona Hoffman, who is also a certified dating coach. She also happens to be the official dating coach and spokesperson for OKCupid dating site. Damona has been helping singles find love for almost two decades. She knows the ins and outs of in-person and online dating. And I know you will walk away with some very practical and powerful tools to help you find the partner you're looking for. Enjoy. 

Well, today I am so happy to have our guest Damona Hoffman on Let's Talk Love podcast Damona thank you for coming and being with us today.

Damona Hoffman | I am so happy to be here. We had so much fun on Instagram, let's keep the party going!

Robin Ducharme |  Oh my gosh, we had so much fun and you just had just so much amazing information to share with people who are looking for love. So this is gonna be a jam-packed session. I'm gonna introduce you first. Damona is a certified dating coach and relationship expert. Damona has been coaching singles on how to find love online and offline for over 15 years. That's a long time. And she's a regular on-air contributor to the Drew Barrymore show and NBC's Access Daily. Dimona is also OKCupid's official dating coach and spokesperson and we've got a lot to talk about when it comes to online dating. So this is so relevant. She's the creator of the wildly successful Dates and Mates podcast. And how many episodes have you recorded now Damona? 

Damona Hoffman | We have recorded over 400.

Robin Ducharme | Wow.

Damona Hoffman | I just recorded my 400th episode with Dr. Drew of Loveline fame, which was really a big inspiration for me in starting the podcast. So it's kind of a full-circle moment. But we're still going, the circle still flowing! [laughs]

Robin Ducharme | Yeah 400 episodes, and I have not even put a dent in listening. I've listened to a lot of your episodes. But every time I listen, I learn so much. And so I would encourage anybody to follow and go to Dates and Mates podcast and start listening because there is just so much really tangible, real information that you can apply now if you're looking for love. So that's what we're gonna do today, Damona. We're gonna just dive right in.

Damona Hoffman | It's what I love doing. 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah. So, the first thing I wanted to start off with is talking to you about the dating world now. Right? And I mean you started this 15 years ago. First, can you just give us a really quick breakdown on how you started? How did you become a dating coach and relationship expert? How did this fall into your life as a career path?

Damona Hoffman | Quite by accident, of course. [laughs] I don't know if there are any dating experts that are like, "this was my life's goal." But I actually started out working in television and I was working as a casting director, and seeing that there were a lot of mistakes that actors were making that they just didn't know what to do to get noticed by someone in my position and to get their foot in the door. And then when they would get their foot in the door sometimes they were really talented actors, but because of nerves and lack of preparation and so many other things. They would blow it on the audition. And I was online dating at the time. This was a long time ago. When I tell people, I'm like I met my husband online. Gosh, we're coming up on I think it's 18 years it's been. People are like how old are you?

Robin Ducharme | That was the beginning of online dating.

Damona Hoffman | It was the beginning of online dating. I was very young as you can see. But I figured out that a lot of what I was telling actors was applicable to online dating. The dating profile photos were basically a headshot and your first date is basically an audition and so once I was able to make that connection, I ended up meeting my husband and then people came to me for advice on online dating. Either they thought it was something really weird and that it didn't yield results or only brought you scam artists, or weirdos. Or they just hadn't really thought about it as a viable way to meet a partner. So I started initially as a dating profile writer, and I was doing that all the while on the side, while I was going up the chain in television. And about 10 years ago, when I had my daughter, I went back to the job that I once loved, and realized that it wasn't a fit anymore and I really had a passion for helping people in love.

Robin Ducharme | I love that. And so what would you say? I mean, in 15 years, the dating world has changed so much. I mean, obviously, online dating is now the number one way to meet somebody. What would you say are some other huge shifts that you've seen since you've started coaching with singles? 

Damona Hoffman | Oh, man, that's a good question.

Robin Ducharme | A positive ending. I mean, just like putting a couple out there.

Damona Hoffman | It's a big question because I have been doing it for so long. I've seen many iterations. So without giving you a tech history lesson. I would say there were a couple of major shifts in the dating process. First was Tinder and the swipe technology that made online dating accessible to everyone. So the prior, like the first, I don't know, eight years of my online dating career and specifically dating profile writing career, nothing really changed. Like the apps, well they weren't apps then, they were websites. They were the same, your profile was essentially the same. And there were just a few major players that you would go to. And then Tinder came in and disrupted everything, and made it so that online dating was really easy to use. So you could use it on your phone. You weren't using it in your mom's basement anymore. 

Robin | Yeah. 

Damona | You used it with friends, it made it social. It also made it so that you could create a free profile. Remember before you had to pay to be on any dating site. So if you were on match.com, OkCupid, Plenty of Fish, well, Plenty of Fish was free. But back in the day you were paying to play, basically. So you were seeing a higher interest level from most of the people there because everyone was invested. Tinder is a great thing that makes it accessible to everyone. But then we got a lot of variety. We started getting more scammers, we started getting people who were not necessarily interested in a relationship, but we're just looking for hookups, we started getting people who were maybe married, we started getting people who just weren't that invested. Because the barrier for entry was lowered. So it made it more popular. But it also created this need for screening. Which I know we'll probably be talking about a lot today. You needed to add the screening step, which I've always had as a part of my programs but it became even more crucial because you had to see if the person was there for the same reasons that you were. And then of course COVID happened and the pandemic made dating apps, essentially a must do for anyone who is interested in a relationship. So to answer your question, the biggest change that I saw is, that I've seen over the last 15 years, but even just the last two years is that there are just more options, there are more people in the dating marketplace. And the thing that has done is it has impacted the speed of matching, and the communication methods that we are using to get to know someone. And we could do a whole episode on just texting and messaging and the courtship process, but literally, in the last 15 years, everything about courtship has changed and I see it as a tremendous opportunity to learn a new way to communicate because it's not going back to the old way. We're already, we're living in the future right now. 

Robin | Yes and I think that there are still a lot of people who want a fit. If you're looking for a partner, let's say you've been married for 20 years, even 5-10, whatever. And you met your partner in a traditional way, traditional being okay, in a bar, okay? [both laugh]

Damona | Yeah.

Robin | Let's say, or your mom introduced you to this person. I don't even think that's very common anymore. But it's this resistance to the way things are and it's causing some I think anxiety and people are putting up walls like I don't want to meet somebody online. There's privacy. There's, you know, that it's definitely not romantic in some people's eyes. But it is number one, it's just a fact. Like you say this over and over again, online dating is the number one way people are meeting today. So people have to just change the way they're looking at it.

Damona | Sure, sure. And we have to be really careful with the narratives that we repeat to ourselves. We are, just as a society, we are so addicted to stories. We love our stories. And, you know, I love my stories just as much as the next girl. I think that's why I started out in television. I love telling stories and transitioned to helping people in dating because I love helping people write their own story. And I see a lot of attachment still to old stories. Well, this is how it was always done or these are the stories that I watched, this is not how I imagined meeting my partner, I didn't see myself meeting my partner online. I don't know what story I am going to tell my kids, I don't want to tell my family that I met my partner online. I'm speaking to you from the other side, if you are single, and you've said any of these, these things, none of that matters. My kids aren't like, "Oh, can't believe my parents met online." First of all, their entire life is online. So it's weird, things happening in the real world are weird to them, right? They're just happy to be alive, to be alive as humans, okay. [Robin laughs] They're not worried about how we met. And similarly, I think, like, I remember my first online date, well before I met my husband because I did it for years and figured out my system before he came into my life. But on my first online date, my mother, I'm not joking with you, called me sixty-six times, because she thought that I was going to be abducted because I had met someone, a stranger on the internet. I'm like, she became more frantic with every call. Like, "Damona, if you don't call me back in five minutes, I'm sending the police." She did not send the police. I did not get, I did not get murdered, obviously. And it was fine. But maybe seven years later, when I was already a dating coach, she was asking me. She's single, my parents divorced when I was 17. And so she was like, tell me about this online dating, do you think this is a good idea? So we can change, we can adapt, I can't tell you how old my mother is. But I can tell you that if my mother embraced it, that anyone here listening can have an open mind to shift the narratives that they're telling themselves and that shift in narrative will lead to a different experience. 

Robin | Yeah, so you have written, I don't know if it's one of your Dates and Mates podcasts I've listened to or one of the blogs I've read from you. But you go through a list of what you call negative samskaras in dating. And these are just, I just really enjoyed learning about these things that really could stand in your way of success when it comes to dating. And I think if we can go through them and flip them around, right? I mean, we can talk about each one and just how you can avoid these kinds of pitfalls, right? 

Damona | Sure. 

Robin | Can you give us, what so even how you came up with this idea about a samskara? And your definition of that and how this applies to dating?

Damona | Yes, well, in addition to being a dating coach, I also am very, very involved in yoga practice. And so the term samskaras is basically, its patterns. And I relate it to, I guess, psychology and dating coaching. A lot of times, you'll hear this as your neural pathways. These are the patterns that are carved for you that become a habit. And you can have positive habits in samskaras, you can have negative habits. But if you believe, as scientists have proven, that you have neuroplasticity, which means your brain is continually growing and forming new pathways. If you change your behavior, you change your mind and vice versa, you change your mind, you can change your behavior. And therefore, if you have something that you identify as a negative pattern that is a groove that you're stuck in, you must take decisive action to reprogram it. And that starts with just even some of the phrases that we were saying before, I didn't imagine meeting my person online. And if you can change that narrative and catch yourself as you start to go back into that pattern, then the more that you do that and rewrite it with a more positive thought, the more you will notice your attitude and your experience changing alongside that.

Robin | So that is one of the negative samskaras, that somebody can, if they're identifying that they've got one of them is negative self-talk, right? So you have to change your mind and change that into a positive. Having positive mantras such as, it doesn't really matter how I meet my partner, it's the fact that I'm going to focus on meeting that person, and no matter how I meet them, how they come into my life, that's really up to really the choices I make and the actions I take. And right in the end, your goal is to, it's like getting a job, I really don't know how I'm going to get this job, I'm going to try all these different avenues and when I do get it, hey, it's gonna be wonderful. Same thing as meeting your partner.

Damona | And I have my clients really start with visualization. With clarity on who they are, what they're bringing to the table, and who they want to meet. And also, I try to get them in a space of visualizing how it will feel to be with their partner. Because our brains cannot decipher between past, present, and future, our brains don't have a timeline for that. And sure, different memories are stored in different places. But if you visualize your future with this person, first, you're going to recognize when you see that person and you feel that feeling, again, you might not get the packaging, this is why I don't focus on the list of like, must be six feet tall, must make this much money, must live within five-mile radius of my house, or I guess kilometers give me kilometers for the Canadian listeners. [laughs] But when you put those kinds of physical characteristics on it, you might not see it, because those are going to shadow the feeling of it. So I try to put that feeling first and then your brain will recognize that feeling and your brain will picture it. This is why when we visualize, we imagine that it's already happening, we imagine it in the present. When I have my clients, I have them write out a living vision for the future of what it will feel like when you are six months, a year from now, with that person, and I literally have them write out a narrative. I have a lot of different tools that I use to help people get into this space. I have meditation tools and a lot of techniques that basically are doing the same thing. They're rewiring that neural pathway and placing your brain in the space of the imagined reality that will become your actual reality. But we spend so much of our time ruminating on the past or projecting to the future, that a lot of people are not present in the moment. And that's what I try, the state that I try to get people on dates, when they go on dates. So the prep, there's preparation work, but then it's all about, setting aside the preparation, and then moving into your present moment with the person that's sitting across from you on the date. 

Robin | Mmhmm. Being present.

Damona | Or across the screen. 

Robin | Yeah. [laughs]

Damona | On a virtual date. But we'll talk about that later.

Robin | Yeah and actually, so one of the others that I hear so much, and I know you do too, is ghosting. So I mean, this is something that is not uncommon in online dating or in dating in general, right? You maybe have a first date like this, you think things are going great. Next thing you know, that person is nowhere to be found. Zero, no more texting after a while, and just like that's it.

Damona | Thank you for clarifying also that it's not just an online dating problem, because I feel like people want to, a lot of people are frustrated in dating right now and I get it and I'll tell you why. But first, I just want to acknowledge that so many times I hear people placing a lot of their frustration on apps. And I'm not saying this because I'm OkCupid's official spokesperson, I'm saying it because I've been helping people online for, oh my gosh, almost almost two decades, Robin. But a long time and because I've seen it work for me and work for so many of my clients that I think it's dangerous when we put too much power and emphasis on the app. And we all, anytime we're frustrated, we say, "Oh this is a problem with the app." So thank you for clarifying. Ghosting is not an app problem. Ghosting is a people problem. 

Robin | Yes. 

Damona | But going back to your original question of what has changed. The speed of dating has changed, the frequency of dating has changed, the number of opportunities in dating has changed because of dating apps largely. And other and social media, which a lot of times people don't talk about social media being a dating app, which it absolutely can be, even though it's not billed as such. And when we are, when we are having so many conversations, a lot of those connections are not, they're not your person. And that's why we see a rise in ghosting. It's because of the number of connections. It's not because of the app specifically. That said, I'll give a couple of tips because I know people are like, "What do I do about it though Damona?" I understand, I understand the problem, what's the solution? My tip is you have to become a real person, they have to have an investment in meeting you. So if you're getting ghosted, before first dates, make sure you're doing the screening process of having a phone call or a video chat before you meet in person. That is a must do. That has been a part of my program since day one. And that will mitigate a lot of the predate like, just not showing up or retreating from messaging. Also, I'm sure we will talk about texting and the texting trap, which is one of my favorite topics and things to help break people up. There's also too much communication sometimes that happens before the dates or in between the dates that gives you a false sense of connection. So in the first, I would say three dates, which is roughly I have my clients space it out about a week, per date. And I have some people who are listening, they're like, "What, wait, what do you mean, you space it out a week in between dates?" That is how you develop a deeper level of connection, you have to have the time in between to reflect, to miss one another, to think about one another, to build anticipation for the next date. So if you're going on dates with someone, or going on a first date with someone, and then you see them every day, for three days, and then you get this intense emotional bond that you've built, and then you're texting, you're texting every day, you've let all of the air out of the connection. And so then it dissipates faster, you haven't practiced what Dr. Helen Fisher calls "slow love" and you haven't built that connection over time. And that's another thing that can often lead to ghosting because it feels too...

Robin | Intense. 

Damona | It's too intense and the idea of backing away from that person feels too emotionally charged and overwhelming and it causes some people to just shut the door on everything. They just, they just do the slow fade and back away.

Robin | Mhmm. And so what do you think is the solution to that? Like if somebody, because we didn't have a community question about this. You know, I went on three dates with this person, everything seemed to be going great and then all of a sudden, they're gone. So what if you're that person that's been ghosted? Are you just like, "Okay, that wasn't the right thing," even though you thought there was such a great connection after those three dates, even though maybe let's say it was rushed? Are you gonna continue any sort of communication about that? Or just like, "Oh, that person is... they're out. I definitely don't want to waste any more time with that."

Damona | Well, you definitely don't want to waste any more time with that. 

Robin | No.

Damona |  Like people will show you who they are and you've got to believe them the first time, as Maya Angelou says. [laughs]

Robin | Yes. 

Damona | So you know, and I'm sorry, to your community member who had that experience and I know, that's a very common experience. I find that usually, I have a three-date rule. So it's interesting that you said after three dates. I say usually try to get through three dates. If they fit your must-haves, and they don't have... I give my clients three must-haves and one deal-breaker, not a list of 25 things. A list of three must-haves and one deal-breaker. If they fit that and you're curious enough, after the first date to go to the second date, go to the second date, if you're curious enough, after the third, go to the third date, if by the third date, you're not feeling sparks, that is an appropriate time to end it. So I often will see relationships that are not balanced. And when I say not balanced, I mean, you have to have two people who are equally curious about the other person. And it's not something to be taken. This is where it gets dangerous for our ego, for our self-esteem, is when we start to think well what is wrong with me?

Robin | You're taking it personally. 

Damona | Right. Why did they not choose me? What did I do wrong? And I think a little bit of that self study is very helpful in looking at it in terms of patterns, like if you've seen all of your dates and after three dates, all of your relationships end after three dates, that is a pattern. If one person you felt very emotionally invested in, and they ghosted after three dates, that's not necessarily a pattern. But that's something to just put a marker. That's what we do in television when we're editing. We put a marker and we go, "Oh, I'm gonna come back to that." And just get curious about what may have happened. Where clearly in this situation, you had a mismatch of expectations. And Anne Lamott says "Expectations are resentments waiting to happen." Right? 

Robin | Oh, I've never heard that one. That's a good one.

Damona | I didn't make it up. I can't take credit for it. I wish I did. But if you are feeling that resentment or that disappointment, sometimes that's because you didn't clarify your expectation or a lot of times, we assume that the other person's actions mean the same thing that our actions would. If I took that same step, that must mean, if we had sex together, that must mean that we are emotionally bonded, and they see me as someone that they'd like to have a relationship with. And that's not necessarily true. If you haven't clarified, you can't know what's going on in their head.

Robin | Something you've also, I love this word that you've coined, it's obliga swiping. [laughs]

Damona | I also can't take credit for that word. [laughs]

Robin | Oh really? It's great. When I first heard that term come out of your mouth I was like, obliga swiping? What is that?

Damona | I did it as part of my, I have a dating dictionary segment on access daily on NBC. So I did cover obliga swiping last week. Obliga swiping is this feeling that you have to be swiping, like everyone's swiping, and so if you're not there, you're just basically, what are you even doing? 

Robin | Yeah, you're gonna miss the party. 

Damona | But when you're there, you're just doing it out of obligation. Obliga swiping. You're just like, ah, next one, next one. Yes, no, yes, no. I don't want my clients in a place of obliga swiping. And I don't want anyone in your community obliga swiping. If you are not on your app with intention, you should not be on your app at that time. So I have my clients go through cycles, I'll have them cycle through one app, starting with OkCupid of course. I'll have them go through the app to the point where it starts to feel like obliga swiping or it starts to make them feel resentful. I know that's come up when we've had chats before, you know, with the Real Love Ready community. That feeling of just like dread over dating, that's not the strongest place to be dating from, that would be a great time to take a break, reset, set a date on your calendar, this is the day I reinstall my dating app, and then come back to it when you can can do it from place of clarity. 

Robin | Yes. So you have said there is, how long do you recommend you stay on an online dating app before you choose or try another one? And how many apps do you recommend?

Damona | This is a complex question. 

Robin | It is complex.

Damona | It really varies. But here's what I'll say most of the people in my program, if they are, if they are following all the steps, and they've done their preparation, they're practicing with slow love, they're leading with curiosity, I find that most of them are seeing someone exclusively from the app within three months.

Robin | Wow.

Damona | I know. I'm good. I'm that good.

Robin | That is very good. 

Damona | But it is, so much of it, like yes, I'm good but more importantly, my clients are good. Because when they come to me, they are ready to devote themselves to this process. And this is why you know, I say date like it's your job but I don't think you should necessarily be dating all the time. I say if you give it three months of clarity and decisive action, you will see a result. So I can't take credit for those results. That's because my clients committed to the process and committed to making dating their number one or number two priority for three months, not for the rest of their life for a three month period. That said, I will tell you the usual flow that people go through in those three months. Usually will start on the app. It takes a couple weeks for the algorithm to get to know you, to sort of ramp up and show you all of the people that would match for you and you get through. You get this initial burst of like, "[Gasps}, look at all these people online, I didn't know that there were so many matches out there. I'm so excited. I'm so excited! Now I have too many dates. I'm talking to so many people." And you're putting all this energy out. And it's, it's like a mad rush for the first two weeks, two to four weeks. And then you hit what I call the low. And I tell my clients every time, the low is coming, be prepared, be prepared, it's coming. Don't abort the mission, don't freak out. The low is when you get through all of the basically top-ranked matches for you in the app algorithm. And then your, um, your matches that are being shown to you, there are just fewer options, because you've already swiped through most of them. 

Robin | Yeah. 

Damona | So you either need to wait for more people to enter the app, or just be patient, or start searching for that diamond in the rough. And this is why I say really, you should give it three months. Because that person, the chances are that that person that you're looking for is on the app at the exact moment that you're like, "Yes, I'm going to do this." It happens, it's happened to a lot of my clients. I feel like a lot of my clients say that the person they matched with has only met like one other person or hasn't met anyone else on the app, which is unusual. But for some reason, that's just the pattern. You'll get to the lull, and then you have to stick it out through the lull. Now in the pandemic, I found that there was a lot of anxiety coming up through the lull because people were feeling so much isolation, so much loneliness, that the lack of activity really felt like, unsettling to a lot of my clients. So I started recommending they do this cycling technique. So then when they hit the lull on one app, they cycle to another app. Then you go through, you'll see some of the same people but you'll see a lot of new faces and go through that. Then by the time you are done with that cycle, you go back to the first app. I recommend that my clients are on two apps at the same time. But I prefer that they're not on more than two apps at the same time. I prefer for them to cycle, because inevitably, you will, you'll miss messages and the speed of messaging has also increased. So that is something that is really important if you're on the app for you to be present and active on the app. And it just, this is what leads to dating burnout. It's just too much you can't. The average person has five to six apps on their phone. That's too many. 

Robin | Oh, it's way too much to manage and it's overwhelming. And you can't, you have said before, you want to become a master on the app, I think, right? Like because you know it, you know how to communicate, you know, okay, this is the button I press. [laughs] I don't know, I haven't done online dating in quite a while but if you've got five going on how can you possibly be balancing it all?

Damona | Well, and I'll also tell you, you know, I love looking under the hood on my client’s profiles and showing them my, of my deep cuts of like, new ways to search and find matches, because people tend to go in and just do the same thing every single time. And like on Tinder, you don't control the algorithm that much or on Bumble, you know, you open it and these are your matches, but on OKCupid, on Match, on so many of the other apps, I call them the legacy apps or the traditional apps, there are alternative ways to search. Like on OkCupid we have 1000s of matching questions that you can answer, that tell you more about that person. And if you use the desktop version, which most people never do. Most people just open up the app or on it for 15 minutes and close it. You can search, you can do a keyword search based on what people have said in their matching questions. 

Robin | Wow!

Damona | That gets you a whole different queue of people. 

Robin | Yeah. 

Damona | Then if you just wait for the algorithm to match for you. So I have different ways of programming in the backend to get my clients to get that filter wide. You want as many people to come in as possible. Unless you are overwhelmed and you're just like, "I have so many matches. I can't even get through them. I'm so, so busy and tired. I can't." Unless you're at that point, which most of my clients are not. Most of my clients are like, where are all the good matches. They're there. You just have to go a level deeper to find them. And this is just kind of going back to the old ideas about chivalry and everything, you have to remember, when you're on the app, you're dealing with a piece of technology. It doesn't have feelings, it doesn't know your favorite kind of flowers.

Robin | You have to know this technology and I so appreciate our conversation Damona. I can only, I just hope and pray that everybody listening is getting so much out of this because I am. It is technology, you can't take it so personally.

Damona | You can't take it personally.

Robin | But you also have to know what you're dealing with. 

Damona | And you have to spend time digging around in the app. Like, I'm working with a client right now, who I've discovered, like, doesn't really understand how to use OkCupid. And we have so many tools and systems that are there to support you. They had multiple messages that they were just letting sit, people that met their criteria, that they just didn't know how to get into it. They didn't know how to, they got overwhelmed with their likes, they didn't know how to go through their likes. And the thing is, you're programming, you're basically you're creating a negative samskara for the app, because the app is a piece of technology. Think of it in terms of Instagram, for example, like if you engage more on Instagram, with people who comment on your posts, or you comment on other people's posts, or you start, you know, liking pictures. If you start using the app, it will bump you up in the algorithm, you'll be shown to more people, you will see higher likes on your photos, that sort of thing. So I think people can understand it in terms of social media. But when it comes to a dating app, you forget your programming and algorithm. So I do not want to see for any of my clients, a list of matches just sitting there. Like, you know, for people that are on, I have clients that are on Bumble, you have the B-Line that you can pay for. B-Line is everyone who likes you. If your B-Line is just sitting there and you haven't even said no, you're not programming the algorithm. The algorithm doesn't know what to do with that information. 

Robin | Yes. 

Damona | So you've got to tell it who you like. You've got to engage with the people that you like. And you can't just swipe left all the time, because then you're going to get deprioritized in your dating apps matching algorithm. 

Robin | Wow. [laughs] It makes perfect sense but I think if you're new to all this, or even if you're just not great at online dating, you're missing out on a huge opportunity.

Damona | Well, if you say you're not good at online dating, you are missing out on an opportunity, because that's a negative samskara that you need to get rid of. 

Robin | Yes.

Damona | Right.

Robin Ducharme | So what about first date fails?

Damona | What about them?!

Robin | And we did talk about this, you have this, you recommend pre dating. And I think this is so smart. Why would you get, I mean yes, you can, you know, get all ready, be looking beautiful and have your video chat with somebody. But even simpler, is having a phone call with somebody before you get ready to go meet somebody in person.

Damona | Yes. As you know, I'm not very old-fashioned in my dating preferences. But I do like the phone call, Robin.

Robin | Yeah. 

Damona | I think it is a tool that is often overlooked. And during the pandemic, everybody, everybody was video chat dating, right? So as we all were experiencing zoom fatigue, we were getting zoom fatigue in dating apps. And people were like, "I'm just so tired. I'm just gonna sign off the app. I don't know what to do." And I'm like, "Have you thought about doing a phone call?" And they're like, "A what?"

Robin | People are afraid of being on the phone.

Damona | We forgot that that was a tool! That it was a thing. You could do a phone call, and you should. And so I've had that from the beginning of my dating coaching experience. I've had all my clients do a screening phone call. I almost broke the rule when I met my husband. And these are not arbitrary rules. These are because I went through the stuff. I was in the trenches with all of you. Many years ago, I went through this experience and I tested it out for you. And trust me the results are better. I almost skipped it with my husband. But then I got him to do a phone call. After I already said yes to the date. I was like, "Wait, can you call me so I can make sure you're not a serial killer?" And he was like "Okay." As if I would know what a serial killer would sound like on the phone. He'd like be breathing all heavy. [both laugh] 

Robin | But that phone call helped you, it gave you clarity that okay, this actually does still feel good. I do want to meet this person in person.

Damona | It's so much about that feeling I was talking about earlier. Just feeling that vibe of you can get a sense of someone. Can they talk authentically about the things that are in their dating profile? Can they, can they listen well and feed off of what you're saying? And then just keep it short. Like 15 minutes and you'll either be energized by the conversation or depleted by the conversation And if you're energized and intrigued and curious, then you go on the first date. If you are like, "Meh", because a lot of times people will do the screening call and then they're like, "Yeah, I don't know." In my book, an “I don't know” is probably a “no” that you feel out of obligation, you should say yes. Unless you've recognized that you have a pattern of always saying, "No" you should listen to what your body is telling you. Actually my 400th episode with Dr. Drew, he reiterated how, my 400th episode of Dates and Mates with Dr. Drew, he reiterated how he says "The body is a perfect instrument, your body is a perfect instrument, your body will tell you." It's fight or flight, you know. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. If something, you get a rumbly in your tumbly when you talk to them on the phone, probably not your person, and you've got to tune in to listen to that. We spend so much of our time shutting all of that stuff off, shutting off our intuition, and it does us an absolute disservice. We've got to get back in touch with that.

Robin | Yeah and the first date fails. You talk about being, we talked about this being present. One of the quotes that I wrote down that you said is, "One of the biggest things I coach my clients on is being present on a date, fixating on the past and fantasizing about the future with this person in front of us, rather than simply being present at this moment." So part of that is, yes, it's being present, being there listening, engaging, being curious, and being in your body. Right? 

Damona | Yes. At least I'm consistent with my advice, right? [both laugh]

Robin | Yes! Yes! These are simple, yet I think we often forget. 

Damona | Oh, completely. 

Robin | Oh, yeah.

Damona | And this is the thing with dating, and first dates, It's an opportunity to practice. I see dating as a set of learned skills. You know, I said this when we did our Instagram Live together, dating is a set of learning skills and you can practice and get better at them. Just like mindset is a set of learned skills. Like anything that you want to improve, you know, I'm doing a plan with a nutritionist right now and I can see the progress, the incremental change in the way that I make my choices with what I eat. It's different every day because I'm investing in the process. So you could say, well, isn't eating intuitive, like everybody knows how to eat? Sure, sure. Right. 

Robin | I don't think so. [laughs]

Damona | But you can make choices that are not healthy for you. So dating is the same way you, sure, okay, everyone can theoretically talk to someone, make a connection with someone, go on a date but it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing it in integrity with who you are, and what you want. And it is something that you can get better at when you practice the way that you want to do it. So, you know, just a couple first date tips like, don't overstay your welcome. That's, that's my biggest tip. This is the biggest game-changer for my clients over the last 15 years. 

Robin | Have a short first date. 

Damona | An hour, that's all you need. I write for The Washington Post and we did a, I write for this matchmaking column called Date Lab where we set people up on dates. And we did a Valentine's Day event this year. And one of the other writers said that she keeps her online dates to 45 minutes. And I was like [gasps], but I was like, good on you. If you know after 45 minutes, yay or nay! And most times you do, but we stay because we're like, oh, I don't want to be rude or like, well, I don't really feel a vibe but what if it develops. And I find that in that setting, it's not going to develop more. Once you know, get out, leave them wanting more and let it unfold over time. As I said earlier, slow love space it out. But if you could just truncate that first date. And if it's a video date, like honestly, 30/40 minutes is probably good. But if you could truncate that time, first of all, you would conserve your energy. So you wouldn't be feeling as much burnout because you're not spending as much time on dates. And you are letting the energy end feel like it's leaving in the middle. Again, maybe it is but you're leaving the energy on a high point and that is ultimately what your date will remember. And then in terms of just being present on the dates, if you focus on listening, if you focus on wanting to understand more than wanting to like, be impressive or get your point across or, you know,  get that person to say yes to another date. You're more thinking, how can I connect with this human? Is this? Does this human connect with me? And that is, that is worth so much more than, gosh, there's so many people that I feel like our condition, it's not us. It's, you know, our society conditions us to want likes we were talking about it on Instagram earlier. 

Robin |  We're conditioned to be like, I hope I hope that person likes me. 

Damona | Yeah and then I'm like, do you even like them?!

Robin | If you're focusing on that you're not being completely present in yourself. 

Damona | No and so many times you don't even like them. Right? 

Robin | Yeah.

Damona | I think we had a question similar to that, right? [laughs] If you don't, if you don't like them, it doesn't. I mean, and it's not, it's not like, do you like them as a person, you don't like them as a match for you as a possible partner, then, you know, you can't get caught up in who's doing the rejecting who has the last word, who likes who. It's just, it's either a fit or it's not. 

Robin | That's right. 

Damona | And I've been really, for the last year, I've been leaning on this concept of empathetic dating, that I thought was really important to introduce into the dating space, because I felt like there was a lot of apathy, there was a lot of people dating from a place of disappointment in dating and it wasn't making us very nice to one another, it wasn't helping us to understand one another and know that that person is looking for connection in some way, just like you are, and just acknowledging that. If it's not your person, that's okay but the most empathetic thing you can do is to let that person go or to let that person know how you feel.

Robin | Be brave and be honest. 

Damona | It's empathetic to both you and the other person. 

Robin | That's right. So what about another mistake, the set it and forget it profile. So this is something that I think is so key when you're online dating, is to be continuously, it's a live document, you want to be updating your pictures on your profile, because like you said, it's technology you're dealing with, to make sure that your algorithm, you're on the top of the algorithm.

Damona | Yes. Also, you're not the same person that you were a year ago. 

Robin | No you're not. [laughs] I'm getting a little bit to do strategic over here Damona!

Damona | I love it, though! You're right, you're right. It does impact you in the algorithm and if you are updating your profile, like I try to update my clients profiles, like every six weeks, which is frequent, but remember, we're only doing it for nine months. I mean, for six. I'm like, Wait, how long are we doing this ? No, you're pregnant for nine months. 

Robin | Yeah. [both laugh]

Damona | Three months, you're only committing to this process for three months. So you should be testing everything. I'll change out your primary photo, because maybe one photo and I know like some of the apps like on Bumble, it tells you which on Bumble, Hinge, they'll tell you which photos are performing best. 

Robin | Hmm. 

Damona | I kind of like, I love technology but I'm also like, apply a little bit of your own strategy too because they're going to just tell you which ones are getting the most views, and which ones are getting the most likes. But I'm not, remember we're not chasing likes, we're chasing connection. We're seeking connection, we're not chasing anything, we're seeking connection. And if you're getting likes, but you're getting likes from the wrong people, or they're not turning into messages, or they're not turning into dates, it doesn't freakin’ matter. So you need to have a profile that attracts the right kind of dates to you and gets them, as I was saying earlier, in the funnel. Get more options on the table. Then you do the filtering process. But updating your profile in your algorithm, it does impact the algorithm 100%. Like on OkCupid, I'm always telling my clients, if you feel like, "I'm seeing all the same people." Answer more matching questions. They will always be available to you. We'll never run out of matching questions. I've never had a client be like, well, I got to the end of the OKCupid's matching questions. It doesn't happen. There's 1000s of them. So do something, take an action and that will, immediately within two days, you'll see a shift, but also you are not the same. You are always changing. You are always evolving. So many times people will say to me, "Oh, I tried online dating. It didn't work." I say, "How long did you do it for?" "Well, about three weeks and then you know I just didn't really see anybody that I liked or it didn't really turn into any dates." Or they'll say, "I actually met someone, I dated them for six months, but it didn't work out. So online didn't didn't work for me." No, it did work.

Robin | It did work. 

Damona | That person didn't work out. And that's okay. You now have the tools and the knowledge to go back into the pool and find the right person. And then I'll say, "Well, let me see your profile." And inevitably, I'll hear, "Oh, well, these pictures are kind of old. And I didn't really add any new pictures." or "I never take pictures of myself." "Well, you know, because of the pandemic, and I don't have anyone else take pictures." "I don't really have any pictures." "I, you know, I just want to lose 10 more pounds, and then I'm going to take pictures." And it's just, you know, all of these. Let's just call them excuses. Let's call them what they are. Excuses for I don't want to put myself out there because I'm afraid. I'm afraid that I'm going to put effort in and I'm not going to get what I want out. I'm afraid of rejection. I'm afraid of meeting someone like my ex, I'm afraid of, you know, fill in the blank. Listeners at home fill in the blank. And, and usually it is, it is some form of fear that prevents you from taking action.

Robin | So let's talk about texting because this is a huge topic. And you say texting is not a chemistry builder. It's a chemistry blocker. It can be, right? But texting is at the core of our communication challenges. I have a personal story about this.

Damona | Tell me.

Robin | I met my husband Todd on OKCupid.

Damona | Oh, yeah, I forgot about that! 

Robin | I did and our story is similar to what you were saying before about the norm around or you hear this a lot, how somebody is online dating along but I was, so he had been online dating quite a bit over the years. He had different relationships, he had met people through online dating but I had not. He was the first and only person I met online dating. So we were long distance. And so we texted quite a bit in between our seeing each other and our phone calls. But quite a few times it would get us into trouble. Right? 

Damona | I want to hear more. 

Robin | You can't rely on texting for, there are so many traps to texting. 

Damona | Yes. 

Robin | You know, right? 

Damona | Yeah, I call it the texting trap. 

Robin | [laughs] This is a good lesson for all of us.

Damona | I'm like, I want to be all up in your business. I'm like, tell me more, tell me more. But yeah, I've seen it go off the rails for a lot of my clients because it develops Well, there's a couple of reasons. It develops this false sense of intimacy, of I feel like I really know this person. And it creates an image of this person in your head that if you have, if you're spacing it out, and you see them again, you're like, "Oh, they're not as quick and clever in person." And when you have asynchronous communication, meaning it's not happening in real-time necessarily. There's a gap of worry, 

Robin | Yes.

Damona | Of over-analyzing. I don't know if I'm hitting on anything from your story.

Robin | Oh and what I hear, what I've heard so many people say is one or the other person is not a strong texter. And somehow that's construed as being, this isn't a good thing.

Damona | A bad person or it's a bad match. Look, I will also share a personal story. My husband is a terrible texter. But I'll tell you one thing, he sure is consistent, [Robin laughs] he's been consistently a terrible texter ever since I met him. If I was trying to get a romantic connection with my husband over text, I mean, I should have just given up a long time ago, and I actually gave up a long time ago. [Robin laughs] But he's romantic in a different way. He's an excellent communicator in person. He's never been good on the phone. He's never been good over text. So for me, you know, I tell my clients, you need to be clear about how you like to be communicated with to your potential partners. I like the phone, you know, so I asked him to call me. I asked him to call me, this is like, I don't know, a couple months into dating. I said, "Hey, can you, can you call me to check in during the day every once in a while?" And he was like, "Oh, oh, okay. Okay." So he calls me one day at work. And I'm like, "Hey, what's going on?" He goes, "Nothing you told me to check in, I'm checking in." Like super literal. [both laugh]

Robin | But how great is that? I mean, you weren't having great success communicating over text and so he did honor what you're asking him to do. He called you, like, "Here I am." Right?

Damona | And it's just not his thing. But he showed me that he was willing to, to shift his communication. 

Robin | Yeah. 

Damona | To try to meet me where I was at. And ultimately like, look, we have a great relationship with great communication. It doesn't happen over text. That's just not how we communicate. But you know, I'll see with a lot of clients that they get caught up in that early phase of like, "Oh, they're not great at texting." or "They are great at texting, why are they not great in person?" And like, if you're really in a relationship, I don't think that the texting part is as important as we make it. So this is why I try to get past that awkward texting trap as quickly as possible and into the real connection, the synchronous real-time communication. Where it's question, response, comment, you know, comment, reply, and you have that volley and can really feel that connection and communication, and it just can't happen over text. And I can teach you and I do teach my clients and my Dates and Mates listeners, all of the tricks for how you can build that anticipation and that connection over text and tools that you can use that will improve that. But ultimately, it's really about what happens when you are face to face with this person. So don't get caught in the texting trap. It's a road to nowhere.

Robin | And, and just a few tips that I've heard you share, you don't want to be texting, paragraph after paragraph. This is not your opportunity. If you're, you know, if you're new in dating to be going into these stories over text. That's a phone conversation, that's an in-person conversation that needs to be had.

Damona | Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 

Robin | And keeping it brief, right? 

Damona | You do want to keep it brief. And this is a really key point for a lot of people who are not digital natives, who are analog natives. So if you are Gen X or greater, if you're Gen X or greater this is where like, I spend a lot of my time teaching the tool of texting, how to flirt over text, because, you know, I used to just say texting is for information, not conversation, just like don't even do it. But I've had to, as the way we communicate has changed. And now I'm like 90% text communication with most of my friends. As we have changed as a society, the way that we communicate, we all have had to learn a new method of communication, a new tool. And when used effectively it can build connection, it can keep you in touch. And this is actually another big change since I started teaching people about online dating, that we have tools that can make us feel closer to one another even if we're separated. So long-distance relationships used to be like, I don't even know what you're doing. Like, how could it possibly work out? What are you gonna send a letter by carrier pigeon? 

Robin | Yeah. [laughs] 

Damona | But now it's like, okay, you can do video chat. You can text each other gifs you can text each other, you know, with emojis. I'll just give one tip but I don't want to give all my juicy juices away. One tip, just using an emoji at the end of the sentence. Which I know is not for, for analog natives it's like, What? Isn't an emoji for like teenage girls?" No, an emoji is a mood modifier. It gives context to what you're saying. And so this probably happened with you and your husband in the beginning. There's a lot of room for misinterpretation if you don't know the tone that somebody would use, if you don't understand their style of speaking verbally yet, you might misread their written communication.

Robin | I agree. I think there's just too much room, like you said, for misinterpretation with our, our challenge was so much space. He was working in a job where he couldn't answer his phone or even look at his phone during the day in film. And you know, you're interested in this person, you're like, "Oh, I wonder how they're doing." There was just zero communication. And sometimes I would want that, right? And so rather than waiting for a telephone conversation, like you said, all that space, you get a little bit anxious and you have anxiety growing. And you're maybe, I know that I had texted maybe some feelings like I'm feeling this, I'm feeling that. It's just like, that's a telephone conversation or an in-person conversation. Not a text conversation.

Damona | Yeah and then he comes off of work and looks at it and says like, "I don't know what to do with this." 

Robin | Yes. 

Damona | "Am I supposed to text back? Am I supposed to call her? Does she need a hug? I'm not sure what to do. Just tell me what to do." But you know, I have a lot of clients that don't want to get in the texting trap. And then they're like, What am I supposed to say? Because this person just keeps texting me. Or like I got this question on Dates and Mates recently. Like, I keep getting these good morning texts. What am I supposed to do with this?

Robin | Yes. [laughs] What am I supposed to do about this? How did you sleep?

Damona | Yeah. And it's like, if you're not in a relationship with someone, put the kibosh on the good morning texts, it doesn't forward the communication, it doesn't build the connection really. So do it though, in a nice way, not like, "Get out of here with these good morning texts!" It's more just like, "Oh, I love to hear from you. But you know, I'm really busy in the morning. So I'm probably not going to respond, you know, you, you might not hear from me until later in the day." or "I love it when you send me texts after I get off work." or "I love it when we get to talk at the end of the day." And you set up what you want and how you want that person to show up for you, rather than penalizing them for their normal method of communication. And they're probably basing it on like, what has worked for people they've dated in the past. So it's just a new set of rules that you have to articulate. Yeah, setting up your expectations and being clear on what you want. So all these communication tools that we need to use in dating. Look, I know none of this is easy by the way. 

Robin | No.

Damona | This is why I've been in this career for so long. Because these are all skills that are not easy to master and also take a tremendous amount of courage. So I just want to acknowledge anyone listening, that's like, "Yeah, I'm doing that and it's hard." Sure, it is absolutely hard. Connecting with humans is very difficult. It is very difficult. But you owe it to yourself to build this skill. And I find that most of my clients, when they start a program with me, they'll realize, "Oh, I've gotten better at asking for what I need at work too." 

Robin | Yes. 

Damona | "I've been able to communicate better with my family." You know, there are so many ways.

Robin | These are transferable skills. Of course they are. 

Damona | Absolutely. 

Robin | Well, Damona, I can't even believe that our time is up. But I know that you have just so many things that you can offer people that are wanting support and help with their dating life. You've got your profile starter kit. So what, so that you're helping people with creating and their online profile? Is that right?

Damona | Yes, I got so many questions of, I don't know what to put in the profile, I don't know how to write about myself, that I was like, let me just make this really easy for people. So it's plug-and-play profile templates that I've used in the past for clients that literally like, I don't know, have you ever done Mad Libs? Did you ever do that? Mad Libs when you were a kid? So Mad Libs is like you fill in the blank. It's like an adjective, verb..

Robin | Oh yes! Of course.

Damona | So you just fill in the blank in these template profiles with whatever's authentic to you. Or there’s also prompts that will help you to get these stories that we were talking about earlier, out and on the page. I know a lot of people are not natural writers. This is why I got into dating profile writing in the first place. But I want to give you the tools and the prompts to be able to tell your story because your story is authentic to you. And we want to really leave as many threads in that profile that someone can pick up on and, and be inspired to message you about something specific and not just a "Hey." And then I also have a short video tutorial on how to choose the right photos for your dating profile, which is also a really important factor. So as of right now, that is a free bonus at datesandmates.com. It's the profile starter kit, it may become a paid program. 

Robin | Wow!

Damona | So grab it now while supplies last.

Robin | Yes and then you're running your dating accelerating program right now, right?

Damona | Yes, I do the dating accelerator program. That's my signature program. So it's run live just twice a year. So we're right in the thick of it right now for the first half of the year and then our next round will be in September. And we are working on, we have a couple of online programs that are available all the time. If you sign up for the profile starter kit, you'll get to see what's available to you there. And we're working on making the dating accelerator available as a self led course as well. So that's how you can work with me. But you can also get a ton of information just from listening to the Dates and Mates podcast. I've been doing it now every week for nine years. 

Robin | Definitely, there's a library of really so much information if you're looking for ways that you can up your dating game. You just go to Dates and Mates podcast. Thank you so much, Damona. 

Damona | Thank you.

Robin | Every time we tune in and discuss these things I have so much fun and learn so much. And I really hope that our listeners are going to have a lot more success in dating just from listening to you. 

Damona | Thank you so much for having me.

Robin | Thank you Damona and I know we'll talk again soon.

Damona | We better. [laughs]

Robin | Take care.

Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com. We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready podcast is recorded and edited by Anna Lafreniere. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Anna Lafreniere. We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Anna Lafreniere