How to Build Yourself a Brand-New Life Container with John Kim | Transcript

21.10.05

This transcript is from a live online event, hosted on the hiitide app during Real Love Ready’s Online Learning Summit “Building a Blueprint for Better Relationships”. It was hosted and recorded on Zoom.

Robin Ducharme | Well, I'm going to get started—I know there's some technical issues happening right now. But we're going to fix this. 

My name is Robin Ducharme, and I'm the founder of Real Love Ready, and I'm so incredibly happy to be introducing John Kim, our speaker for tonight. This is our third Online Learning Summit with hiitide. And really, we're all here to learn how to be better at love. I really feel like this is one of the most important things in our life is our relationships. We're gonna be learning together and growing together. 

To start us off, I want to express gratitude to the Coast Salish people, who are the original caretakers of the land that I live and work and play on. 

Welcome, John Kim, so happy to have you. I think, if you're okay, you're not frozen anymore. I was gonna say you might be but it's okay. John is a licensed therapist and author of best selling books: I used to be a miserable f*ck and single on purpose, he pioneered the online life coaching movement eight years ago, after going through a divorce, he started a blog and host a podcast (which I love) called the angry therapist, and quickly built a devoted following of fans who loved the frank and authentic insights that he freely shared on social media. He pulled the curtain back and showed himself practicing transparency and sharing his story, something therapists are taught not to do. He's changing the temperature of self help, by coming with you instead of at you. 

So I'm going to give you the floor john, as you're going to show us and teach us how to build a brand new life container. And then we'll go through Q & A. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. 

John Kim | Sorry, I don't know what's going on: why the universe is doing this, but um, I think the safest thing to do is use my phone because I've got full Wi-Fi. I don't know if it's zoom. But um, I apologize. I keep freezing. Can you hear me? Okay? All right, perfect. Okay, let's, uh, man, let's get the mic. Am I rolling?  

Cool. Let me take a deep breath real quick. And if you're, if you're watching, do it with me. And I want to kind of set the intention. What is the feeling that you want? Yes, there's going to be lessons and knowledge and stories. But what's the feeling that you want when this is over? So in the chat, if you can just type one feeling or a statement. What is it that you want to be left with? I think it's so important to trace feelings. You know, I think it's so important—. Empowered. Yes, absolutely. I want to leave this experience feeling that there's something greater than me happening. That's what that's what I want. What do you want? Let me look at the chat real quick. empowered, peaceful and invigorated. Yeah, absolutely. 

So I'm going to teach you today how to build yourself a brand new life container. And this is something that I created. When I was at the lowest point in my life, about 13 years ago, I went through a divorce. And as you can see, behind me, there's a book called I used to be a miserable F. And it's a true story. I used to live outside-in instead of inside-out. My divorce left me with a shattered heart and starting life all over again. I went to become a therapist, and it was the catalyst to a rebirth. 

And so, there's a few things happening: one, my own, you know, journey in building a better relationship with myself, and then the universe drew me into nonprofit and I had a lot of resistance. I was helping teenagers, which I didn't want to do because I felt like “I have a Master's now”. I felt like a school counselor; “Why am I—you know—wearing khakis and taking kids to the grocery store? But it was where I learned this concept, which is all about a safe space, right? It was the motto of TC. And that dates back to the 1800s, where if you provide a safe space, in this case (it was addicts) then growth can be organic. You know that without the safe space, that giant container cracking. It’s gonna start your growth. And so when I learned that, I thought: “Oh, man, I wonder if that is also the case with us? Like, can we build ourselves a brand new container.” And so I took that concept of going through a broken heart. And I took concepts from therapy school, put it all together. 

That's how I came up with this whole building yourself a brand new container. So what is it? The concept is very simple, the execution not so much, but we're going to go through a giant piece of it. 

It's my favorite part. And I hope that it's going to be effective. If you know in your life and you build yourself a brand new container. So we all have a living space called a container. That's what I call it. And you could have cracks in your container, right? So the obvious crack is if you're in an abusive relationship. That's a big crack, it's going to stunt your growth, but also, it's going to stunt the growth of your partner. It's up to you to decide what your cracks are. So, you know, being in a job that you hate, that could be a crack, right? There could be hairline cracks, there could be you know, giant cracks. And the good news did, you could build yourself a brand new container. 

And so that's kind of what I did. So the very first step in building yourself a brand new container is pulling from your solid-self. After my divorce, I got two tattoos. Right here it says “solid” and right here says “pseudo”. We all have a solid side of ourselves and a pseudo side. And the example I like to use is the movie Fight Club. 

If you haven't seen Fight Club, this is a spoiler alert, because I’m giving away the ending to prove this point. But the movie is ultimately about inner conflict. Right? You have Brad Pitt, you have Edward Norton. Put in the chat if you've seen the movie: which person is pseudo—meaning a false version of themselves seeking approval validation? And which person, which character, is solid— meaning your authentic self. So let me look at a chat here if you've seen Fight Club, who is sudo and who is solid? Payten says “I love this movie”. Yes. Sylvie says, “Brad Pitt is solid”. Yes, he is solid. I have a man crush on Brad Pitt so that comes out. 

They're easily framed, but people mistake that, because they think that, because Brad Pitt is starting fight clubs, that he's, you know, the villain. But no, it's Edward Norton, who starts the movie. Unsure. No passion, no sense of purpose, not able to sleep, buying IKEA furniture, all that stuff. He collides with himself, which is Brad Pitt. And of course, there's first resistance and pushback. And then once he starts to listen to that part of himself, what happens? The character arc, right? He finds movements, and I know they're doing bad things in the movie, but he finds a movement, he finds his voice, he finds love, he becomes a leader. And so I like to use this movie as an example because I think there's a Brad Pitt and an Edward Norton in us. 

Most of my 20s and half of my 30s. I was in my pseudo self, which puts a giant crack in your container. So I was exchanging my truth for membership. I was seeking approval, validation. I grew up in Hollywood, I was a struggling screenwriter. And I was a floating leaf and I was very hollow. Once I was chopped at the knees, I got my divorce and had to start life all over again. I said to myself, okay, nothing now, like I had no money, I had no friends. My whole life was my wife at the time. You know, she was the sun that I would revolve around. And once that sun set, I didn't have a life anymore. I didn't have a sense of self. And so I said: “Okay, what if I started to actually pull for myself? What if I started to listen to the faint whisper that we usually ignore? I wonder what would happen and I had nothing to lose.”

So I started doing that. And what I realized was: we, because of society, commercials, advertising, you know, parents, blueprints, or whatever, we listen to the thundering voice that isn't our truth. And that cracks our container. So I started to listen to Me. And I started saying, what would make me happy? What do I want? One of the things I did after my divorce was: I bought a motorcycle. See? They're at six now. And it connected me to the part of me in the 80s that I locked away. And so the first concept is this idea of pulling from yourself itself. 

So, if you as you're listening to this, ask yourself, what that looks like. Because we have different parts of our lives, at work, in our relationships, in our friendships with our family? Are you functioning in your own self? Or are you pseudo? 

So for example, like at work: do you not raise your hand when you have an idea? Are you scared to speak in your relationship? Pseudo means doing life around your partner, not telling your partner how you feel, pushing your feelings down, or doing life at your partner, meaning, you know, controlling, grabbing, manipulating, you know, all of that. 

Being solid means to be vulnerable. Being solid means to do life with your partner, to show yourself to communicate. You know? So, ask yourself in your relationships, are you pseudo or solid? If you are pulling from your pseudo self, in a lot of areas in your life, you have a cracking container. That's gonna stunt your growth. 

And so, the first step to build a brand new container is to ask yourself, what does it look like for me to start pulling from my solid self? In action and behavior? What would it look like for me to pull from myself and stuff at work? In my relationship, in my friendships with my family, and executing that right, is going to start building yourself a safer space, you're creating soil for growth. So that's the first big lesson: it’s to pull from your pseudo self. 

Before I move on to the next one, I want to look in the chat and to see if you guys have any questions about that concept: pseudo or solid. Living inside out instead of outside in. And that was the lesson. Of course, I know it sounds scary, it is scary. And it takes practice. But it's life changing. I'm telling you. In hiitide, if you want to research and read more about it, you can, I expand on it there. 

The next lesson is—actually, it's my favorite—and it's this idea of unlocking your code. So I believe that as we grow up, we disconnect to parts of ourselves, right? And we lock those parts into a hope chest. So many of us had to grow up fast, many of us had to take care of siblings. Many of us were, you know, chasing the corner office, or the picket fence, or whatever it is. And we slowly started to disconnect with ourselves. So I asked my clients a lot. When did you feel the most alive? I'm not a big fan of the word happy. I think “happy” can be plastic and a bumper sticker. But when do you feel the most alive? 

For me, it was the 80s—it was a windbreaker, fat laces, cardboard, boombox, spinning on my head after school, and my dad coming home telling me: “this is not why we came to America”. But I remember hitting flow states and losing track of time, and I didn't care about anything, and I was super present. So it doesn't mean, as a 48 year old, to start breakdancing again, although it could. It means what does it look like for me to connect to that 12 year old? What does that look like in action? And when I was going through my rebirth, I came across this thing called “CrossFit”. And what attracted me to CrossFit was all the gymnastic movements—the muscle ups and the burpees, the handstand push-ups and all that, because when I was doing those things, it connected me to that kid in the 80s that was breakdancing. Right? So there was a reunion there. 

And so I think self-betterment is sometimes more about a reunion than anything else. To build a brand new container, you have to open up that hope chest; connect to the part of you that you have disconnected with. So my question to you is: in the last, I don't know, 5, 10 years, maybe 15—what part of you have you disconnected with? Because of whatever, because you started paying taxes or you got that job, or whatever, you got married, maybe children, maybe you started putting other people first, I don't know. But there was a disconnection, most likely. And if there was, that means there's a crack in your container. What does it look like today to open up that hope chest and connect to the part of you that you have disconnected with? Before I move on to the last lesson, just check the chat. Any thoughts about unlocking your code? Any questions? 

Soo says: “I disconnected with my absolute boldness”. Yes, absolutely. Then the question is, what does it look like to reconnect to your boldness, drop into your body? And ask yourself what that feels like, you know, tracing, that feeling is going to equal that connection. 

The last piece of building yourself a brand new container—

She says surfing and dancing. Yes, surfing. Absolutely. And that could definitely be filed under boldness, connecting to yourself. And also feeling more alive. 

The last piece of building yourself a brand new container has to do with returning things that are not yours to own. So I tell my clients, sometimes we carry things that are not ours to own, and we need to return them—like boring shoes. What are you carrying that doesn't belong to you? And it could be, you know, the example—that's kind of a simple example, classic example—is: if you find yourself tracing someone else's blueprints. Right? Like, if my mom, because she hates that I have a motorcycle—which is, you know, that's fair, because they're dangerous, I get it. But if I were to sell my motorcycle, which connects me to parts of me, which makes me unlock my code and produces joy makes me feel alive, if I was to sell my motorcycle, I would be carrying my mom's fear. By hearing my mom and understanding I’m being empathetic. But at the same time, living my own life and continuing to ride is me giving back my mom was not mine to own, which is her fear. 

What are you carrying that is not yours to own? That it becomes stones in your shoe, making you walk funny. Maybe your ex’s anger? Are you carrying old definitions that have developed from previous love experiences? Right? Maybe what you're carrying is something that doesn't belong to someone else, but actually belongs to an old version of you. Maybe what you're carrying, are old definitions that you've been holding on to that are no longer on is to you. Right? And so, if that's the case, there's cracks in your container. So what are you carrying that you need to return? 

Then the second question is, what does that look like? Does that mean sending your parents to voicemail? Does that mean having a conversation with an ex? Does that mean forgiving someone? Returning things that we carry that don't belong to us anymore, that's gonna help with your container. 

These three things: Pulling from your solid self—your authentic self, listening to that faint whisper, because it usually is very soft, because we don't listen to it right, instead of the thundering voice that is lined with “shoulds”; unlocking your code connecting to that part of you that you've disconnected with; and then returning, what is not yours to own anymore. Those three things will build you a safer container. 

And if you practice this daily—and this is what I did: for about six years, just you know, listening to self-betterment, audio tapes and driving my motorcycle, and dating, and this whole idea of finding yourself. I would practice these things every day. And what I realized was: if you can provide that safe space for yourself, when you find someone who you want to invest in, you're bringing so much more to the table. Because now you're bringing someone with a safe space. You're bringing not only you, but this thing that you've built, and you can imagine it like a force field. That's going to promote your growth. And then when you bring that to the table, you're also going to help promote the growth of your relationship and your partner. Right? 

So when you have two people with safe containers, that builds a healthy relationship, and with those safe containers comes boundaries. You know, I'm speaking of relationships. One of the images that I saw about 10 years ago that just landed for me—

I just blogged a lot about love and relationships. I used to think love meant, if I go down, you go down with me, right? Because that sounds sexy, and it's romantic. And I realized, that's not love. Love is if you go down, I'll give you my hand, not my life—

And the image I saw in a magazine, and I think it was for yogurt, was two people. And they were like in this ad. So they, you know, they've come a long way. And they were in separate bathtubs overlooking the Grand Canyon, connected by holding each other's hands outside of the bathtub, facing in the same direction. And they're kind of looking down into the world, like they've, you know, done a lot together. And I was like, oh, man, I saw it. And I stopped and ripped that paper out and I put it in my back pocket. Because it was a reminder to me that this is what healthy looks like. 

Because most people think that love looks like two people facing each other sitting on top of each other in the jacuzzi right. Now, obviously, that's, that's a lot more sexy. But it's also a measurement of possible codependency and other things that make your container crack. So if you work on building yourself a brand new container, it's that bathtub, and if your partner works on building himself a brand new container, that's their pet tub, and you guys bring that to the table. And now your relationship has legs, right and together, the container, the relationship is more safe. 

I know I went very fast, because we have a limited amount of time. But I also wanted to put this kind of into a shot glass, because that's what I do, right? Take dense concepts and bring it to street level. 

So how did that land for you? What's coming up for you? What are your thoughts when it comes to all this stuff? Love, relationships, containers? If you have questions, I do have a lot of questions on my computer, as well. But I wanted to get to people who are live in the room first. 

Q&A

Robin Ducharme | So please put your questions for John in the chat! And I do have—I mean there—there were at least 25 questions that came to us andI I've got about eight that I can ask just right now, but obviously the ones that are coming through live, John—yeah, you can of course answer those too.

John Kim | Yeah, let's do it. Um, let me see here in the chat. So says: “I love it. I realized I need to get out of my Korean mom's approval for my wildlife and writing.” 

Man, that sounds like me. Yeah. And so, you're seeking your mom's approval. Your Korean mom's approval is definitely a cracking of your container. It's preventing you from pulling from your solid self, right? So seeking someone else's approval and validation, exchanging your truth for that kind of membership, is going to mean that in that space, you're more pseudo. So my question to you is, what would it look like to not seek approval and validation from your mom? What would that look like in action and behavior? And then that execution of that is what's going to help you build yourself a brand new container.

Robin Ducharme  | So John, can I—can I go through a few of the questions that were coming through this week from? 

John Kim | Yes, of course.

Robin Ducharme  | Okay. So the first one is: “I was left pretty abruptly several months ago. And I'm now trying to move forward and want to do some introspection before diving into any new relationships. But I struggle with pattern recognition. And we didn't have any huge arguments really where I could gather feedback from my partner. I'm also not great at pattern recognition, so how do I move forward and try to unpack the black box without that kind of information? Or are there any questions I should be asking myself?”

John Kim | Yes, absolutely. And I will give you a few. And, I would start with what didn't work for you and your last relationship, what didn't work for you? What are some patterns that keep happening in all your relationships, right? So not just the last one that you were in, but what keeps happening that you notice? And when—when I say what keeps happening, I'm not talking about what your partner is doing because it's easy to blame. What do you find yourself doing? How are you approaching things? How are you in these spaces? And what's the common thread in that right? How you think, how you behave, how you engage? And then how much of what didn't work is your piece? Like, what's your contribution to the exploration? 

I think taking ownership is a huge piece of learning and growing and evolving. And if you don't own, you're just gonna go through a lot of pain, right? So I think after every breakup, there's so much rich soil for growth. But only if you review the black box. Only if you go back. And you look at things from, you know, from a distance, so you're not in it again. But you have enough distance where you can not judge it, but observe and learn and grow from it. And also, did you pull from yourself or someone else, you know, in that relationship? Were you doing life at or around your partner? Or were you doing life with? So those would be my questions. I know that was a lot.

Robin Ducharme | Shannon, just put a question in the chat. “Do you think you could have that conversation about safe containers with the person you're getting to know or dating? Or would you say it's more about your own self discovery and finding another that has done the same work?”

John Kim | Um, you should definitely have that conversation with whoever you're dating or, you know, investing in. I mean, probably not on the first date, right? But that's what produces relationship glue. And this is what I mean when I say do life with someone not at or around. These are conversations that you have in your head, you should be doing it with your partner, and your partner should be sharing as well. And that's what builds trust. And you guys are on the same journey. 

So yeah, a lot of times people in relationships feel like they should be, you know, just talking to a therapist or doing this stuff on their own. And it's such an opportunity to use this conversation or this dialogue to share with your partner. So you guys are producing relationship trust. Thank you.

Robin Ducharme | I love that actually—relationship glue, which is trust, yes. Next question is: “I've been alone for a while. Like, I haven't ever been in a serious long term relationship, I know that I have a problem where I'm able to be vulnerable with other people, especially in romantic situations. And I don't know how to cultivate that kind of vulnerability, I read that it is impossible to get over this rejection sensitivity.”

John Kim | Yeah, vulnerability isn't an option. Meaning to not be vulnerable. Because vulnerability is soil. It's foundational. I don't think you could build any relationship, whether we're talking about intimate or, you know, friendship, without vulnerability. Because then you're building on sand, right?

So when I talk about your solid self, you can't be solid without being vulnerable. If you're hiding, you're going to be pseudo. So to truly show yourself, is terrifying, I know. And also, it's not something that we learn in school, it's something that requires practice, it's easier to hide and show, you know, different parts of ourselves that we're used to showing, but to show all of us right, to show ourselves in a full, transparent and courageous way, that kind of vulnerability. That's what creates soil to build a safe container. 

So knowing that you need to be more vulnerable is where you start, which seems like you know, and now that you know that. What does that vulnerability look like? And it doesn't just have to be with your romantic partner, you could take the shallow end of the pool, meaning you could do baby steps, right? You don't have to jump off the diving board. Pick someone that you trust, like a friend or someone that you're actually able to be a little bit vulnerable with, and then lean into it and see how comfortable you feel with that. Right? So exercising your vulnerability with people that you know, don't terrify you, and then building on that kind of like it's a muscle.

Robin Ducharme | That's fantastic advice. I love that. Of course, you can start with people that you know, and trust and love. Right, right. Like I need to be more vulnerable right now. Can I— can we talk? You may or may not have enough to say that. Right? You're right.

John Kim | Yeah, and I think a lot of people are like, well, I need to be vulnerable, but I haven't found anyone. I'm just by myself. I'm gonna wait in sight. So you're gonna put pause on life. Like Robin, you said you can be vulnerable right now and you should be you know? Yeah, yeah.

Robin Ducharme | Okay. Next question is: “How do I disconnect from my identity as a partner in a relationship? I don't necessarily think my ex was the ‘one that got away’, but I can’t help feeling like I don't know who I am if I'm not in that relationship specifically. I was a partner, an aunt, and a sister-in-law. And I've had to go pretty much no contact with all those relationships. How do I move on from being a part of a family to being essentially alone?”

John Kim | Yeah, this, this reminds me of myself. See the “Single On Purpose?” the yellow poster behind me? I wrote that book because it doesn't stay single forever, right? I think we can lose our identity in relationships. And we do it all the time. And so, when you are single again, the soil is rich for you to connect to yourself. So this is where you try to build a better relationship with you. I spent a lot of time by myself in diners. Trying to like you know, that whole thing—“love yourself”—I think it's a little overplayed, it doesn't stick. But I love the idea of liking yourself. Because like, earned love is a choice. 

And so I started to ask myself, what does it look like for me to like myself? What does that look like in action? What does that look like in thought in you know, whatever behavior? And so I spent a lot of time with me, getting to know me. And so I think the way to connect to you and release old identities is to establish a new relationship with yourself by exploring, by discovering, you know, what do you like? What makes you laugh? What? Whatever, you know? And so it kind of is like that, that whole dating yourself concept? Do you like yourself? What does it take for you to start building that?

Robin Ducharme | Can you expand on what you just said about, like, that “like earned in love is a choice”.

John Kim | Yeah. Because we love—we love people that we don't really necessarily like, right? 

So I mean, a good example is family. Like, we love people, because we love them because it's, you know, blood or you know, whatever. But would we be friends with them? Do we like them? There are many people that we don't like, it's earned. Because you can't fake liking you either. Like someone, you know, because you connect to that person, or you respect that person, admire that person, whatever. You could love someone that you don't like, we do it all the time.

So when it comes to our relationship with ourselves, there's a—there's a lot of this, you know, self love, self love. And you see memes you know, all over the internet. But it's a deeper cut. If you ask yourself, do I like myself? And what is it going to take for me to like myself? Right? And so I think that is, so that I think it’s a—it's a richer journey than this decision to just love.

Robin Ducharme | Okay! So good, John. I like that. The next question is: “I'm in a relationship, how do I convince my partner that there's value in analyzing our negative patterns, or make them see that I don't necessarily want to change them when I'm trying to get our relationship to work better. I love them and we've built this life and family, but I'm learning things that can be improved, and my partner doesn't want to hear it, because they just think, you know, bring up too much negative stuff.”

John Kim | Yeah, this is so common. And I hate to say it, but we can't force people to change or think differently. And I think the best way to do this is a one, you have to express yourself, meaning you're important to me, I want to build this relationship, I value our family. And here are my rows of revelations. Here are some things I've learned about us or me and you and patterns, I think creating that dialogue, and that self expression is a must. And then after that, it's on them, you know? And I think the best way to convince someone to change is for you to change yourself, and then to witness that. So whether we're talking about changing your body or changing, you know, yourself internally, them noticing, changing you, I think is going to get them to change—not telling them that they need to change, if that makes sense.

Robin Ducharme | You talked about this during our week in your curriculum. We were listening to one of your podcasts, or it could be just me listening, but you do say that, you know, as a therapist, they're there. Like you're seeing one person, let's say a partner sent them right. You need to go get some help. I'm okay here, but you need to go get some help for us, for us as a couple. But that note is not necessarily like it takes two people to be in a relationship. Yeah, it needs to want, like you said, to change.

John Kim | You know, if you're only 50% of any relationship. And so even if—even if that one person did change and they were perfect, and no one's perfect, what about the other half of the relationship? What about the other half of the coin? You know, so you, you can change the dynamic, I think by changing yourself. But I think it takes both pistons pumping, to effectively change your relationship.

Robin Ducharme | Yeah! The next question is: “I am a strong and powerful woman and love meeting self assured, grounded men and women. How can I attract other strong empowered partners who are not intimidated by me? Or lean upon my strengths?” 

John Kim | Yeah, and Robin, you might be able to relate to this. Women who are, you know, strong, powerful. This is a real thing. I think a lot of times that can be intimidating. You know, and so I wouldn't change who I am. Because someone is intimidated by me, I would use that as a filter. And whoever isn't the person for you—whoever it is. They’ll kind of go through the strainer and down the river, and it's okay to let them go. Because that relationship is gonna be lopsided. So you being a strong and powerful woman—that's a strainer. That's gonna save you a lot of time. I wouldn't, like, water myself down, or be less than to make someone else feel more than. 

Robin Ducharme  | Definitely not. Yeah. I love that. Use that as a filter.

John Kim | Strainer, a strainer. Yeah, and you know—you know, like, back in the day, you put dirt in the strainer, and then you shake it, and then the nuggets of gold stay. And then you're panning for gold. Yeah. Yeah, and also, gold's hard to find. So you know, dating apps and shit like that—be patient. 

Because when you do find the nuggets of gold, it's going to be worth it. 

Robin Ducharme | That is really—that's great. Next question is: “How do you recommend that people identify patterns and figure out what to change? When the black box of a breakup includes a lot of shame and anger? I want to move on and not dwell on what went wrong, not again. But I don't want to repeat the same mistakes.”

John Kim | I talked a lot about the black box, examining the black box so you know why the plane went down. But I do want to say: when you're ready. And this is the answer, you can do it. 

When you're still emotionally charged. If your fingers are stained red from the Cheetos, and watching Netflix and knocking off the couch. Like, if you're in that space, you're not in a place to examine the black box. Because it is going to be lined with a lot of feelings, shame, guilt, and all the things that are going to keep you on the couch. So when you're up and running; when you are building a life, you have momentum, and you feel, like, okay, now it's time you want to learn and grow. You’re able to create some distance, then you go examine the black box. 

And when you examine it, you ask yourself, what was my piece in this? Not “Oh, he or she did this” or “they cheated”. Because if it becomes a blame game, you're really not getting a lot out of it. So what was your piece in it? And then taking ownership, you know, when you're ready. So I would do it when there's distance.

Robin Ducharme | Yeah. The Cheeto dust! 

John Kim | Do it when your— when your fingers are clean. Yeah.

Robin Ducharme | “What do you do if you want to create a relationship agreement with someone?” And I want to say, John, I love your relationship agreement idea! Something that I haven't done with my husband yet, but we have certain things that we have agreements on, but I'm working—. But I think this is what this question is alluding to, right? So the question is: “What do you want to do if you want to create a membership agreement with someone, but they're not interested? My partner says they don't want a legalistic contract. And they want things in our relationship to be natural instead.” And so I would like, I think, the question is twofold. It's like, okay, you know, you understand where this person's coming from. But I also wonder, like, what is the approach to actually having a good, like, how do you what is the best approach to having relationship agreement? 

John Kim | You know, I never meant to, I never meant for it to be, like, taken literally you know. I think it's a great exercise to create a relationship agreement because what would be on that agreement, because what's what you're going to do is you're going to think about what's important to you and your non negotiables, right? What didn't work last time and what you're not willing to negotiate? 

So I think it's a great exercise for both people to do it. I don't think you actually make an agreement and make someone sign it. That's no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it. I don't know if that's what—what he or she is talking about. But I do think you do it together as an exercise. And I think instead of you pushing this agreement to your partner, I think you ask your partner, hey, hypothetically, if there was a relationship agreement based on your story, and everything that you've learned, what would be on that? 

I'm very curious, you know, so it's not like a, it's not like a review or an evaluation. It's more about, like: What do you want? Where do we overlap? How can I support your needs? And vice versa? And talking about your future together? Where do you see that? 

Yeah, yeah. I do think that, I do think agreement is important, because a lot of times we get into relationships, because we have butterflies in there's chemistry or the sex is amazing and all of that is great and important, but that doesn't create the legs of a relationship. I mean, especially a marriage. It's like: what do we agree upon? That is foundational. So we're building on a solid structure not on sand.

Robin Ducharme |  Yeah, yeah.

John Kim | And that's not just one conversation, obviously. Oh, yeah. That's not that's not one conversation. That's spread out through I think, years, you know.

Robin Ducharme | Next question is: I tend to date people who are very different from me. Sometimes it feels like a good thing because we bring new things to the table or make up for each other's weaknesses. But sometimes I get frustrated and wish we had more in common. Is it true that opposites attract? Or should I be looking for someone more like me? 

John Kim | I love this question. I love this question because I think people are obsessed with a checklist or finding their type and I think there's no stretch in that. Yes, you could be attracted to someone who's like you, and I've experienced a lot of experiences where they're just like me with the same humor, and same taste and music and all that. 

But also, I'm in a relationship now where we're so different, you know? We speak different love languages and I almost bounced a few times because I thought we were too different. But once I swam past the breakers, I realized, there's beauty in the contrast, like, you can actually develop and fall in love with someone, because they're so different, you know? And I think that because we have ideas of what love should look like, or what someone should do, or how they should look or act.

We don't, we're too narrow, we don't give ourselves the space to explore. I used to be like that, I used to have a type and if you didn't fall into that type, and you were kind of excused. Excused in the sense that, like, I, I’d just dismiss that.

And I think love is about expanding, right? And that's very narrow. So, I also talk a lot of creating new love experiences. And so in this relationship that I'm in now, I consciously said, “We're so different, and let me challenge myself to see the beauty in that difference, and if I can, that means that I'm stretching myself in my heart and who I am. And that's where I want to go—that's who I want to be.”

Robin Ducharme | Seeking beauty in contrast.

John Kim | Seeking beauty in the contrast, absolutely.

Robin Ducharme | Anybody through the chat has more questions, I'll ask them otherwise, I'm going to keep going from this list, which these are excellent questions. I'm so happy about this.

What can I do to communicate to the people in my life that I am intentionally in a season of singlehood? Everyone is trying to encourage me to date or acting like I must be unhappy without a partner? Sure to buy them all a copy of your book, what can I say?

John Kim | It's um, it's telling and it's sad that it's your single people who think that you're something's wrong with you, or you're not happy?

You know, Barbie never needed Ken. She just needed that, that pink Corvette, you know?

And it's like, also, when you get a divorce, you know, people assume it's like—when you get a divorce, the first thing they say is “I'm sorry”. You know, and it's, it's okay, if they're sorry that you're sad. But for some people, divorce and expired relationships lead to freedom, lead to rebirth, it was the greatest catalog, the categories catalysts to their evolution. 

So yeah, I'm sorry that you are being judged in the world that we live in. And I don't think you owe anyone an explanation because you're single, you know? 

I think if—if people say something like, “Oh, you know, you're single,” or they have this kind of energy of thinking that you're not happy, because you are, I don't think there needs to be an announcement. You show them by how you live, you show them by your energy, you show them by what you're doing, and I think a lot of people who are in relationships where they're unhappy, may try to tear you down because they wish they were you. Or they wish they did that, you know, before this relationship. And so they'll—it's a lot of projection, you know, “I hope you find someone” or whatever it is, patronizing all that. They're looking out the window of their own prison, wishing they were free, you know, so there's a lot of that.

Robin Ducharme | Wow.

John Kim | The next question is, do you have any advice on how to let go, let things go in relationships. These relationships are ones I want to maintain with people I love, and I logically know, it's healthy to let go of past hurts and move forward. But sometimes, even though my head knows that it's hard to get my heart to follow along, yeah, I think the answer to this is forgiveness. And I think people are mistaken about forgiveness in that. It starts with the decision, but like grieving, it's a process, it's a daily choice. Some days, it's gonna be hard to forgive someone and some days it's gonna be easy, like when you choose to love someone, some days, it's hard, some days it's easy.

Forgiveness is what it takes to let things go and also forgiving yourself.

You know, it's not just about forgiving your ex, but forgiving yourself for the choices that you made or, you know, the people you picked or whatever, whatever happened. Actively forgiving yourself daily, I think releases. Because it's not a light switch, right, and so forgiving people that you have loved and forgiving yourself daily to let go is I think, you know, yeah, I think that's, that's a huge part of going through a breakup and rebuilding yourself.

Robin Ducharme | Really, I think that is just fantastic. Just the concept that forgiveness, of course it's a process, but we don't really think of it that way. Right? 

You're saying, “I can't, I can't forgive that specific thing or that,” but it's, you know, I think just like focusing on that. Just making it, like you said, a daily breathing in and out of it, right? Or, you know, some sort of practice. Because, you hang on to things that are just gonna be damaging to yourself, right? 

John Kim | Yes. And also, when things are good, actively forgiving. 

So, there are things that happen every day, do you know the dirty socks on the floor? Or the fifth time I told him to clean up, you know, after he shaves. Like there are little things that happen throughout the day, and, you know, it’s death by 1000, paper cuts, right? 

A lot of times, nothing big happened to a relationship, but there's been drift because of all these little things that are bothering you. Because you're not choosing to forgive, you know. So forgiveness, it's, it's one of the primary colors. And if you're not used to painting with forgiveness, it's going to be hard to build any relationship. So yeah, it's mandatory, it's prescribed, forgiving daily, even when things are good. If you're in a relationship now, every day shaking that etch-a-sketch, and not going to bed angry and waking up, you know, choosing fill up. 

Robin Ducharme | Yeah. Forgiveness is a primary color. [laughter]. There's gonna be all these quotes, we're going to be like—John! 

John Kim | Robin, don't steal my shit, I work alone! 

Robin Ducharme | I'm not gonna, we're not doing anything, you're gonna get all the credit, trust me, I’m not a thief. “What do you do when the relationship expires? And then you do the introspection. And then you don't know where to go from there in terms of your relationships? How do you know when you're ready to start again? And if there isn't a benchmark? How do you determine your own benchmark?”

John Kim | Yeah, I don't know if there is a benchmark, you know, and I don't know if there's like, okay, you did this, and you're done. And now you're ready for this? You know, I think it's cumulative. I think it's up and down. Sometimes it's two steps back, and then one step forward.

I think as long as you're on a path, with the intention to create a new love experience, to be a better version of yourself, and learn from what was. That's all there is, you know. I don't think there's this color by numbers. When it comes to breakups, and finding yourself and all that, I think we put too much pressure. And I think we compare ourselves with other people going through the same thing.

So yeah, my answer is to be kinder to yourself and to throw away timelines. The worst thing to do is, and this happens all the time, is comparing your exploration and where you're at in your life with your ex. Following them on social and being like, “Oh, they just got married, and now they have a kid and they have a dog. And where am I at? I'm still single.” I think all that's a trap. So, we all have our own, our own journeys, and we're going to heal on our own time. It varies and don't engage in timelines or comparisons, you know.

Robin Ducharme | We have time for a few more questions and ask them through the chat. The next question is: “How do I not compare myself? To the idea I have of them?”—Oh, well, this is actually very funny—you just, you just answered that question with the last question. 

John Kim | Killed two birds! 

Robin Ducharm | So I think we just really—as hard as that is to do, we just don't want to be comparing ourselves or our lives or our journeys with somebody else's. Right?

John Kim | It's a, it’s a it's a it's a trap. It's quicksand. Yeah, and we all do it, you know, I'm guilty of it as well. Right. So you got to cut the cord, unfollow.

Robin Ducharme | Absolutely! You don't want to be seeing what's going on with it. Like that's just gonna be causing you harm. There's no need to see it. Right? So this is one of the last questions I have from the questions that came through. But if there's any other questions in the chat, I'll ask them. So this question is: “I get the idea of dating or romancing yourself. But for me, what I like most about having a partner to do things for me, is that someone else is thinking about me, and I don't have to put it all in the effort myself. How do I take care of myself, or create happy moments when I kind of hate the idea that I'm the one who has to do it?”

John Kim | Yeah, I don't want to, you know—I have an idea, but Robin, I just want to hear from you. What do you think of this?

Robin Ducharm | Well, you're my thought is, is that: this is putting too much onus on somebody else to give you happiness. 

John Kim | Yeah. 

Robin Ducharme | And really, actually, this time, that you used to talk about how, in singlehood, it's this: there's this fertile soil, right? This is your time to dig deep, and get to know yourself and start liking yourself for doing all these things that you've talked about throughout the week, and right now tonight. 

Yeah, it's like, how can you give yourself the happiness that you are seeking from someone else? 

John Kim | I want to steal your answer, — yeah, that's, I love it. And that would be mine, too. But I also want to piggyback off that and say: Imagine what you're bringing to the table if you have this ability. 

So, if you have the ability to make yourself happy, if you have the ability to romance yourself, take care of yourself, build a life by yourself. When you decide to do life with someone else, you're bringing so much to the table, right? You're bringing self-sufficiency, you're bringing self love, you're bringing a whole complete person with a life.

If you don't know how to do this, you don't practice it, and you get into a relationship, there's a chance, there's going to be a lot of dependency on the other person, a lot of pressure. “I need you, I need you to make me happy. I need you to romance me, where's my poems? Where's my dinner?” And then it's not fair to the other person, and of course, you're coming into that relationship lopsided. So that's where I kind of want to like, that's what I want to use for leverage, is when you find someone who deserves you. Imagine what you're bringing to the table? 

Robin Ducharme | Mm hmm. I really like that. 

John Kim | Well, thank you. 

Robin Ducharme | Payten has our last question before we close for the night: “Where do you stand on the importance of your family loving the person you're dating? And vice versa? Obviously a complex question, but I'm wondering if our parents sometimes have an expired definition of who we are, and hold the person we are with to that expectation. But the shoe doesn't fit anymore. How can we navigate this?” That's interesting, right? Like, what if your family doesn't like your partner?

John Kim | Yeah. And it happens all the time. Yeah, I think at the end of the day, I mean, it's like my little motorcycle analogy. If you allow other people to make decisions, big decisions, like who you want to love, you're not living your life, you know, you're you're you're living someone else's life. 

So what I like to say is: you gotta make decisions that are honest to you. If you always make decisions that are honest to you at the time, there won't be regret, you know? It might have been a bad decision, but you could at least know that it was truthful to you. 

And so if you start making decisions based on parents, friends, society, whatever, they're not the one that's loving this person you are. And, and I do also agree that you should take their opinions into consideration, like I don't think that we should just ignore our family or friends all that yet. 

Yeah, um, you should definitely hear them out, and because it's all probably coming from love, but at the end of the day, it's your life, your heart, your choice to love someone. It's all on you. And if your soul and your heart and your body feels like this is the right person, then it's the right person.

Robin Ducharme | Definitely, yeah. I really like that. Well, I we—we're running out of time.

I wanted to just ask John, please tell us what you are most passionate about now, and what you're working on, and I know you've got a lot going on with your podcast, your TAT Lab and you're—maybe just share a little bit. 

John Kim | Yeah, I am. I'm still super passionate about singlehood, and changing the temperature of how we date, you know, with swipe culture and we turn into baseball cards, very toxic and ghosting and all that. But I just set up another book called “It's Not Me, It's You” and it's my first relationship book. So again, I'm talking about loving relationships and you know, also sharing a lot of my shortcomings, and I also champion therapists and coaches and experts to show themselves as well.

Because I don't think we're cardboard cutouts. We shouldn't be on a soapbox. We should be sharing stories, listening to people and sharing our own stories. So I love pulling the curtain back. 

Robin Ducharme | And you're I think you're just so fantastic at it, and I know how candid you are. And it's really grounded. It's very, you know, it comes from a very real place, and it's action. We can all take action in simple ways, right? But power. 

John Kim | Yeah, yeah. And I hope that whether you're watching this, or you're here live now, you think about your life container and that space and know that you have the power to create a new container, one that's going to promote your growth, not stunt your growth. And you are always looking for new and different love experiences. So you're not tracing the past. 

Well, Robin, thank you for, for executing this, and I apologize for all the technical difficulties that happened when we started. 

Robin Ducharme | Well, it's been my absolute pleasure. I'm going to close with a little closing blessing, which is what I do with each keynote, and it's all actually with your thoughts. And so really, from what we've been learning all week from you: 

May we not hide.

May we stand in our truth, knowing that we may risk not being liked.

May we pull the curtain back and truly show ourselves to others.

May we nourish the relationship we have with ourselves, loving ourselves more completely allows us to love others in a deeper, healthier way. 

May we be vigilant investigators of our inner selves by continually reflecting on our patterns, and readjusting our behavior in an effort to be the best version of ourselves. 

And may we continuously do things that make us feel alive.

I think tonight I really, I just feel much more invigorated because of listening to you, John, I'm serious. 

John Kim | Oh, thank you. I feel the same, and thank you for creating the space and creating this dialogue. Thank you so much. 

Robin Ducharme | Thank you for joining us, everyone.

John Kim | Alright guys. Bye.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Anna Lafreniere