Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 3 Episode #2 with Kate Anthony | Transcript

22.01.26

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today on Let's Talk Love. I had the pleasure of speaking with Kate Anthony, the host of the Divorce Survival Guide podcast and creator of the online coaching program, Should I Stay or Should I Go? Kate empowers women to find their strength, passion and confidence, even in the most disempowering of circumstances, and helps them move forward with concrete plans set on a foundation, putting their children at the center, not in the middle of all their decisions. Our discussion today is about her divorce survival kit, which offers tools for planning for and navigating through divorce in a loving, conscious and caring way. For hopefully all involved, yourself, your ex, and especially your children, if you have kids. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships and they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love...

Robin Ducharme | Hello everyone and welcome to Let's Talk Love. I'm Robin Ducharme and I am so happy to have our guest today, Kate Anthony, Kate is..

Kate Anthony | Hello, hello.

Robin Ducharme | Hi, Kate!

Kate Anthony | Hi!

Robin | Kate, I know you're in Los Angeles, and you're dealing with this big rainstorm. But anyways, I'm just so happy to have you, I have been following your work for a long time. And we have pointed people in your direction that are either contemplating or going through or have gone through a divorce. And I think that the work that you are doing is is very valuable, and very important in the world. Because yeah, I think a lot of us have gone through or may go through a divorce. I myself am a divorcee, but I have remarried. And I wish I would have actually come upon your work years ago when I was going through a divorce. So I just think, anyways, I just want to just give you kudos for the amazing work you're doing in the world. And let's just dive into what it is you do.

Kate | Great. Thank you.

Robin | So can you tell us, can you please tell us specifically how you become one of the world's experts in surviving through and thriving through divorce?

Kate | Well, step one, step one go through a divorce. And, you know, really one of my sweet spots is around making the decision to stay or go. And that is one of the things that I help women with. And, you know, part of the reason I do that is because, you know, when I was going through this, I was agonizing for years, for years, about whether I should stay or go. And I just, you know, I was looking for a burning bush, I was looking for something to very specifically say, go or stay,

Robin | Yes, like you need a sign, right?

Kate | I needed a sign, I needed to sign and I kept you know, I kept asking people like how do you know when like, This is it? And they were basically like when you know, you'll know. And I was like that's not helpful.

Robin | That's not an answer.

Kate | That's not really an answer, but and I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think many of us get to the point where we're like, you get, I mean, I did when I knew I knew it was a moment, it was like a frying pan upside my head and I was like, Oh, I gotta go. And part of that was because of my son. Part of that was what we're doing here is not the model that I want for my child. And then we, you know, went through a fairly good divorce, you know, all things considered, it was a terrible marriage, but the divorce was okay. And what I've learned over the years, you know, by the way, how do you become How do you do what I do? You know, step one is get a divorce. Step two, is to get trained and certified in all the things.

Robin | Of course.

Kate | Because you can't just be a divorce coach because you've been through a divorce, right? Because then you only know your divorce. You know, step two is is is go to school. Um, but you know, over the years, I have also, unfortunately, become an expert and also certified in domestic violence and identifying, in particular emotional abuse, and coercive control, narcissistic abuse all of those things. Which I never set out to do, but the prevalence of it is, is astonishing.

Robin | Yeah, absolutely.

Kate | You know, so I help women identify those things and then you know, make this terrible decision, and then and then move through it.

Robin | I love the fact that you give people tools, right? That's what Real Love Ready, that's what we aim to do is I mean we can you know, we can bring together the experts and give the information. But if you don't have practical tangible like, you know, sometimes you need step by step or even just like thinking about like, these are the things you have to really think about, for instance, if you're getting a divorce, the bigger picture here and then these are the tools that you can implement. So.

Kate | Right, absolutely.

Robin | So talking about knowing to stay or go. Can we talk about, for instance, something you that you teach about is codependency?

Kate | Yes.

Robin | So how does that figure out if they're codependent if they're in their relationship? Like what would be some sense that you are in a codependent situation?

Kate | If you are a woman in 2023 you are probably codependent. I mean, it's, it's terrible to say but most I think so many more people are and it's not, listen, you know, people are like, Oh, God, that's awful. And I say no, it's not it's, it's great. It's great to identify this. You are not alone. This is so common. It is so prevalent. It's you know, I often say that codependency is a symptom of living in a patriarchy. Women are taught, we are groomed to be codependent. We are groomed to put everyone else's needs before our own. We are groomed, from childhood to be the nurturers and the caretakers and to subjugate ourselves and to you know, ignore our own needs. And at the sort of core of it, those are the symptoms of codependence, right? Is that we put everyone else's needs ahead of our own. We don't really know who we are. We don't really, we don't know what our own needs are. I couldn't tell you what my favorite color was 20 years ago. You know, what do you want to have for dinner? I don't know. What do you want it?

Robin | Wow. Yeah.

Kate | Right, because we just don't We don't think Oh, my knee. I have a self. You know, codependence, I think also at its core is that we have been not taught to, to connect with our capital S self. And so that's sort of, you know, the broad strokes, right. I think that's and I think most women suffer from this codependency. Also Pia Mellody wrote a brilliant book about codependency called, Facing Codependence. And she asserts, and I think she's absolutely right, that all codependency has its roots in childhood trauma. So any abandonment, neglect, or enmeshment, right? If you had a parent that was too involved and too controlling and didn't like, you know, this is my case, where my mom was so controlling that I didn't have there was no space for me to develop a self.

Robin | Yes.

Kate | And then that creates co-dependency. And then out of that comes all sorts of addictions, you know, chemical addictions, process addictions, anxiety disorders, like all of it. But it all stems from this place of not having the safe container to create a sense of capital S self.

Robin | Yes. And I know you do a coaching program, which I really want to go into later on. And you are, you're teaching women, how to identify and create, it's almost like you have to, you have to know what you need to cultivate or understand about yourself. And then, growing into that, right. So you give women the tools for that.

Kate | Absolutely, yes. And, you know, in my Should I Stay or Should I Go program, the very first thing we do is all the work on the self.

Robin | Yes. Yeah.

Kate | Because I don't want the focus on the other person.

Robin | No, it's about yourself.

Kate | Yes, until this is sort of fertilized and nurtured, and because then when you have a really solid sense of self, and you know who you are, and you know what your likes and dislikes are and you know what you stand for in the world. Whether the other person matches that, upholds that, fosters that in you, or celebrates those things in you becomes very obvious. And that's what you want in a partnership.

Robin | Yes. Oh, I really love that. So one of the things I know that you come across, and I think it's just so prevalent is just people staying for the kids. Right?

Kate | Oh yes.

Robin | Well, yes. So what do you say when people tell you they think they need to stay in an unhappy marriage for the sake of the kids, this notion that you'll be creating a broken home? I hate that term.

Kate | Oh yes.

Robin | It's like what the heck!

Kate | It's well, first, like first of all, what is a broken home? Is the, yeah, right? I mean in my world if the home is already broken, like get out.

Robin | Inside the home.

Kate | So that you can, right, it's already broken. So that notion is just it's terrible. It's an awful term. The research however, I can, you know, I can give you my opinions all day long, but the research has shown that divorce does not screw up kids. There are two things that screw up your kids. Staying in a very toxic marriage. Or in a marriage in which it is clear that the two people are not happy, they don't like each other, right? At the end of the day, whatever marriage you have, is the one that your kids will end up replicating for themselves. You are your children's model for relationships. So if you don't want the one that you have for your kids, then you should probably consider, you know, look either change the marriage. But if that's not possible, then perhaps you might need to leave the marriage. It's more complex than that, obviously. But that's, that is the bare bones truth. The other thing that screws up kids is a bitter, nasty, toxic divorce that uses the children as pawns in the middle of the divorce process, right? The things that do, a healthy divorce, in which both parents say, Okay, that didn't work. Now we're going to create something better and, and you know, collaborative, right? That's the best case scenario. However, even if only one parent is the safe parent, is the safe place to land, doesn't have... right, you can be the only one. And it only takes one, it only takes one parent to have your children you know, grow up with a healthy sense of self, self esteem, all of those things. And you know, a lot of people will say that they want to stay because they're trying to, they want to mitigate right? They want to he's toxic or controlling. She's toxic or controlling whatever it is. They're a narcissist. They're abusive. If I stay, I can protect the kids. But what you're actually doing is condoning it.

Robin | Yes, Kate, and I think, you know, you say this. I've heard you say this so many times in different ways. But for instance, if your partner is abusing you, just by proxy, they're abusing the child.

Kate | That's right. That's absolutely right. I hear people say all the time, he's a great dad, but he abuses me. He's but he's a really good dad. He just cheats on me. He's not a good dad. If he's abusing you. He's just not, there's no possible way for that to happen. My friend, Dr. Christine Cucciolo always says that, that abuse, domestic violence and child abuse are not siloed. They are the same thing. So if you are being abused in your marriage, your children are also being abused in the marriage.

Robin | They're witnessing it. They are, they are, all of that. All of that is affecting them.

Kate | Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's affecting their relationship mapping, their relationship imprinting.

Robin | Oh goodness, that is the truth. Yeah.

Kate | And all you have to do probably is go back into your family history and go How did I get here? Right? How did this, how did the relationship mapping that I experienced get me into this marriage? Right. And so you then you can see that like, well, then that's exactly what's gonna happen for your children. So, research has shown that children only need one safe home, even if it's only 50 percent of the time, they need one place where they can go and where they know that they feel safe. They know and you know, and being the safe parent comes with all sorts of things where the kids come home, and they let it all out on you, and you become the punching bag and all of that, right? And your job in that case is to just hold space for the kids. And you know, nurture them be their therapist, they should also have a therapist, but your job in that moment is to really be the safe place for them. And as long as they have that they actually get, you're giving your children the gift of perspective.

Robin | That is so good. Kate, I love that you're giving your kids the gift of perspective. They wouldn't have that if you were together.

Kate | They wouldn't have it. Right? If they were in it all the time, it's the air that they breathe, they don't know the difference. But you provide something different, and they're over there. And they're like, that's so interesting. Over time, they go, Hmm, I feel this way in this house. And I feel this way in this house. I definitely prefer feeling this way. And even if the courts and it's this is a do terrible thing and the injustice of the family law system, that, you know, you probably will have to share custody with an emotional abuser, because the family law system does not recognize coercive control. It is only codified in five states as being a part of in the definition of domestic violence. It is not illegal in any of the 50 states. We're working really hard on that. But the point is that your children, eventually they will, they will know the difference.

Robin | Yes.

Kate | And you know, when they come of age, they may choose. They're allowed to choose when they, you know, get to be a certain age. They're allowed to say actually, I feel more comfortable in this house. This is where I'm gonna stay.

Robin | Yeah. So we as a team because I have a team that works on everything to do with Real Love Ready and Let's Talk Love. And we took your divorce survival kit. We purchased it because I really wanted to see what you are offering everybody. And it is so packed full of really, really incredible tools. And we don't have time to go through them all. But I just thought I would love to go through some of them with you.

Kate | Yeah. Great.

Robin | Because there was a lot of learnings there for me, even though I'm divorced I'm just like Oh, exactly. That would have been like, well, that would have been a good one to follow. Anyways.

Kate | Right. Totally. Yeah.

Robin | So what you say is, which is actually, one of the things I did do with my former husband is we did not hire an attorney right off the bat. And you say don't do that. So why do you advise not to hire an attorney or lawyer right away? Like you might, you might get, like, you might get advice. But not hiring.

Kate | I say have a consultation. Yeah, have a consultation with at least three attorneys. So listen, you want to know what your rights are. But the second you hire an attorney, you are now litigating. Right, like, that's what attorneys do. If you if the goal is to mediate, then put a pause on that, you want to have, if you mediate you want to have you must have a consulting attorney. Because a mediator does not tell you, you know, they're there to essentially mediate negotiations between two people, their job is not to advise either one of you. So they're not going to come to the table and say, Well, you know, you know, I suggest or I recommend, or it would be fair to, that's not their job. So you want to have a consulting attorney on your side so that you actually know what the laws are, you want to know what you're mediating towards. Right? If you have no idea what the laws in your state, say, you should be owed for child support or spousal support, or you might have to pay, right? You don't know what you're meditating, towards. And you could come up with a number and both of you agree, and then like 10, you know, a couple of years later, you're like, wait a minute, I totally screwed myself, right. You don't want that.

Robin | Yes, you need to be educated, you need be empowered.

Kate | Exactly, exactly. So you want to have a consultation with an attorney, but you don't want to hire one off the bat because you are making the biggest legal and financial decisions of your entire life in the middle of the biggest emotional upheaval of your entire life. And that is a terrible combination. And you want to keep those as far away as possible. You want to process as much of the emotional fallout as, as you can in advance of making these legal and financial decisions. It's, it's, you know.

Robin | I really like that idea about separating like, as much as you can because like it's the biggest decisions you're ever gonna make. And, like the emotions are so tied into all of the legal and financial that you have to go through and like, I mean, the separation of your kids and everything. It's just so much.

Kate | Yeah. It's so much. Like, let the dust settle.

Robin | And this is like, really you need a coach or therapist or just download your course. I mean, really, I think it's so important that you just have that other side, the emotional side, like tended to.

Kate | Yes, I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. You have got to let the dust settle. Look. And the thing is that the litigation system is designed to be adversarial. That's, that's the definition, right? And so when you get an attorney, and they're like, Okay, let's go. But you're still reeling from, you know, the discovery of the affair or having been, you know, broken up with or like, whatever it is, you are still emotionally reeling, or they are, they're still in shock. They are, they didn't see it coming. They're blindsided. They're like, wait, and then you're like, Okay, and here's the divorce paper. And here's this and here's this, here's this, they're gonna freak out. As would anybody. So like, give it a minute. Give it a minute. And it's really hard. Especially look 69%, about, of divorces, are initiated by women. There's a lot of reasons for that.

Robin | I didn't realize that that was such a high stat.

Kate | Yep. Yeah, yeah, we're tired. And we reach a breaking point. And 25% of couples, of divorcing couples, only 25% have been in couples therapy. But usually, the woman has been asking for decades, for years and years. I'm not happy, we need to go to therapy, I'm not going to therapy, you need to go to therapy, whatever. And then when we reach our breaking point, and we say I'm done, then they then they want to go to therapy, but it's too late. It's too late at that point. So already, if anyone is ever asking you to go to therapy go. So women are making this decision. And again, men are, you know, often are blindsided by it. And women are like, You shouldn't be blindsided. I've been saying this for ever. They are. They're blocked for whatever reason, whether it's reasonable or not, they are. And if you start the process, they will hire a shark attorney, they they will be they'll be mediating or litigating out of their rage and, and hurt. And nobody wants that. That is the worst thing you can do

Robin | Absolutely. And not only for yourselves and if you've got children, the worst thing that could happen to your kids.

Kate | Yeah, because as soon as you go into court, the people that suffer are the children.

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Robin | Yeah, okay. And so there's a lot in your, your survival kit about if you have children. And I think this is so important that, yes, you're going through this, but obviously your kids like have to be the top priority in this process. And so you talk about minimizing transition for the kids. So you've got some really good tools on what you recommend people do. Just you say, Kate, one thing you say is to start as you need to go on. Yeah. So what does this mean? Because I really like this Kate, because there's some people that will be like, Okay, I'm going to do it, okay, I'm going to go move it to a hotel, or whatever, or go stay on somebody's couch for a couple of weeks or a couple of months. And then I'll figure out my living arrangements as we're trying to juggle the kids and everything else and you're like, No, no, no. I mean obviously, if there's abuse, then that's a different story.

Kate | Right. There are times when that may be necessary, and that's totally fine. And I don't and I don't have any judgment on that. But, you know, God love him. I think about a guy that I dated a few years ago, many years ago. And he had just gotten out of his marriage and he moved into a studio apartment. And he had two small, a three and a five year old. And I was like, What are you doing here? Right and like he got like a pullout couch and the kids were sleeping on that and of course like that's not that is not and he was you know, excited to live his bachelor life downtown LA like all of this stuff, but like that was about him. even that wasn't about his kids. Right? And so he, you know, you want to think about that you don't want to like, like you said, like, bring the kids into a hotel. And then oh, we'll figure it out. And then you right? If it's possible, most people when they separate, end up having to live together for a while.

Robin | Yes.

Kate | Right, whether it's financially, or just decision-making, right? I mean, I lived with my ex husband for six months, before I moved out, because we weren't even sure who was going to move out.

Robin | Well, you have to find a new place. We lived together, my former husband and I lived together for five months. I mean, because you can make a decision but it takes time.

Kate | That's right.

Robin | I had to find a house. I mean. Yeah.

Kate | Yeah. Right. And so rather than moving into a hotel, or moving into an Airbnb, or whatever, yeah, minimize the transitions, like get stuff sorted out behind the scenes, especially if your kids are young, if your kids are older, they kind of are probably more aware of what's going on. But if you've got little kids, right, you're gonna, you're gonna get the place, you're going to set up their room first. Even if you don't have furniture in the rest of the house, you want to make as much of a home for them as possible. And then you want to give them some agency, right, you're going to tell them, you're going to have a conversation with them, which is also how to do that as in that, that kit that you're talking about. And then you're going to, you know, you're going to ask them, let them bring whatever they want to the new house, you're going to like they wherever you can give the children agency is really an important thing. So they don't feel like everything is out of their control.

Robin | Yes. And I, you know, something that I was and I worked with my former husband on this as well. I mean, we really did cooperate and tried, you know, it was all it was about the kids, right?

Kate | Yes, that's right.

Robin | It was like, Okay, we're going to number one because I come from a divorced family. And in my experience, my foundation, my brothers and I, our foundation was completely rocked it was on a regular basis, my parents separated and got back together, separated back together until finally, they got divorced, but I mean, that in itself, like when you don't have your foundation, that's so important for children. And so I said to my ex-partner, I was like, okay, the foundation's most important thing, so I'm gonna get a house, I'm gonna set up their rooms and did exactly what you are recommending. I moved out while they were on a trip with their dad because I didn't want them to be part of the moving process. But you know, I left our original home intact, I just took my very favorite things. You know, like, I didn't want it to be like oh half the stuff is gone. You can't walk into a house and half their stuff is gone. Right?

Kate | No, right, exactly.

Robin | But I did take some of their favorite books and like things that I thought, okay, just to make it feel like home. I just, I just think it's really, that's just so very, very important. And the agency part, it was like, Okay, if you don't love that, that I picked for you, then let's change this. But I think the foundation, keeping the foundation intact. And that has to do with the relationship you have with your former spouse, whether it's good, it has to do with actually the respect piece to just speaking kindly. You talk a lot about that, too.

Kate | Yeah, well, and I think it also has to do with putting the, really putting the kids at the center of everything, right, no matter what your relationship is, no matter how like much like, if you can agree to just put the kids at the center, not the middle to make all decisions through the lens of what's best for your kids, then you're golden. Yes, but if you know, but that's where people, you know, their anger, their jealousy, their whatever. It's all about them and what they want. And then the kids get lost. And as you said their foundation is just completely destroyed.

Robin | Yeah. So this, we've got community questions, and one of our community members is asking this question, "With two separate households rules can be different. With different allowances in homes, it can create unhealthy dynamics between parents and kids. Sometimes kids manipulate situations, and sometimes adults control the outcomes. How do you best recommend lessening the severity of these situations?"

Kate | Okay, well, first of all...

Robin | With different households, it's going to happen, right?

Kate | It's going to happen. And you know, my friend, Christina McGee, who wrote the amazing book, Parenting Apart. Christina says, you know, kids are used to there being different rules in different households they have, there are different rules in each classroom, right? She likens it to like a school, where as if the parents can agree on the overarching principle of parenting, which can also be very difficult, right? That you know, that there is, again a foundation of, you know, values but you go to one classroom and the rules in that classroom are different from another, you know, Mrs. Johnson lets everyone sit on the floor and teaches in a more sort of progressive way when you're going to go to, you know, Mr. Vasquez his room, and it's going to be, you know, desks and chairs and right. And like, kids can make those transitions. That's okay. The idea that kids get different allowances in different houses, I mean, to me, allowance should be something that parents agree on, that should be something that because when one parent gives more than another parent, it can be at a sort of a power play. Right. And, you know, I think in my opinion, allowance should be shared, and it should be agreed upon. My ex, and I, you know, we always, we got our son, the greenlight card, which is a great tool. And you can each put, it's a debit card for kids, and it teaches them about how to manage money and automatic savings and all sorts of stuff. And the parents can add money to it. And they can, they can have an allowance, they can tie it to chores, you can do whatever you want with it, but but one of the things that we do is that every month, my ex, and I put the same amount of money onto our son's card. So if he's not with us, it doesn't matter. Like it was like, you know, trying to remember to have cash and to like, give it to them on a certain date, like it was a nightmare. But once we got this, it was, you know, you can make it automatic. And I think that's a that's a much better tool. But there's different there's other issues at play, when there are these power struggles. And so in that case, what you do is you talk to your kid about it, and you say you don't say like dad's using power, you know, power and control over mom, but you say, you know, Dad has more money, there was a period of time when I was dead broke. You know, my son would be like, can we go to the movies? And I'd be like, No, we absolutely cannot. I didn't have the money and supporting myself, solo, you know, running a household by myself trying to build this business, like there was it was a lot, my ex makes a shit ton of money. And there was a clear difference in our lifestyles and our abilities to do things. And I just had to be honest about it. I would say, you know, honey, things that things are different in you know, Dad makes more money. And, you know, I'm building something, and someday, I hope I promise we'll be able to do things, we'll be able to take vacations, go to the movies, eat out, but right now we can't. And, you know, he learned about life.

Robin | Yes!

Kate | Because some people have more than others, and that's the deal. And he learned about saving. And he learned about like, you know, what it's like to be frugal. Right?

Robin | All of those lessons are just as valuable.

Kate | All of those lessons. Right. And, you know, I grew up in a similar circumstance. And so and my mom, you know, my mom's favorite, well not favorite, but you know, she would always say, well, we can't afford that. We can't afford that. We can't afford that. And I was very, and it was very damaging to me that like, it was a very strange way to say things. And the messaging was was weird, I'll say. And so I was very careful never to say things like that. I mean, I would say, you know, we we can't we can't afford it, if we can't afford it. But it was never the, like overarching theme of our life. If that makes sense.

Robin | Yeah. It does. So Kate, you have something that you call the Children's Bill of Rights in Divorce.

Kate | [laughs] Yeah.

Robin | I was. I love this. But I just really would love for you just share with our audience about what is the Children's Bill of Rights.

Kate | Oh my gosh, you know, I'd have to this is about agency, right. And I and I, I'd have to pull it up to see what I've been put in there, I wrote that thing so long ago, but it's really like, what you're, what are you, what is the scaffolding or the foundation that you're building for your children, your children have a right to be at the center of all of your decisions. They have a right to not feel pulled in two directions. They have a right to have all of their belongings at both houses. Right. And I don't even know again, I don't know what's in there. I can't even remember but it's the but it is the general tone and tenor right. Children deserve certain things that parents need to provide them. It's our job. And it's about safety and security and protection.

Robin | Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think about my children in this in the fact that ever since my accident I divorced, you know, that was 2016. And right now it's 23. So seven years, week by week, my kids, you know, they have their little bins, they still do. And they go back and forth, right every Monday. Yeah. And it's a lot to ask them.

Kate | It's a lot.

Robin | It is so much. And I commend you know, I commend their bravery and just the strength that they've had. I mean, it's not like they have, I believe that that's just something that they have, they have had to go through, and it will make them stronger, as adults or you know, going through life. But it's a lot to ask them. And so anything we can do as co-parents to make that transition and everything else and get and get along, and do everything with them in the top of mind is the best it'll be.

Kate | That's right, it's really important. And listen, you know, there are times when it gets cumbersome. I mean, my son played electric guitar for a while. I mean, he still plays guitar, but he was, we were lugging amps and electric guitars. Like back and forth, and listen, like we live in Los Angeles, but my ex and I, we met and and, you know, our early life was in New York, I grew up in New York, God help us if that had been like a subway situation like it was a lot of shit.

Robin | Oh, my gosh.

Kate | But we, but that's, that's what we did. You know? And I know situations where parents are like, I'm not doing that. It's like, well, who's that about? Who's that for?

Robin | Exactly.

Kate | There was a time my son got really into fashion. And he and he is into fashion. Right? You know, still, but he, he now lives with me full time. He's 17. And he was like, I'm done.

Robin | And I'm sure there's gonna come a time when my kids are like, we don't want to move anymore, which is I just

Kate | Yeah, it's like I want one place. I want one home. I want one home base. I want one roof. But before that happened, he was taking everything out of his closet and putting it in the back of the car, and then picking it all up on the hangers and then putting it in his dad's. And it was that was almost like the heartbreak

Robin | It's almost heartbreaking.

Kate | It was, that was very heartbreaking for me. That he was like, I want all of my clothes. And you know, that was towards the end.

Robin | That is my 16 year old right now. She wants, and actually my 13 year old because she wants to have all of her favorite clothes and all of her favorite clothes. She can't just have duplicates, who has duplicates, right?

Kate | Right. Of course.

Robin | When they were little…

Kate | It doesn't matter when they're little they have pajamas here, pajamas there, that's fine. But you know, this is and this is the point where and by the way, when your kid finally says I'm done, I don't want this anymore. They may choose one place or the other. And I think that we have the obligation to honor that. And if it had been my you know, if he had been like, I want to stay at dad's then like, ouch. But also, you know, okay, okay, this is not about me. This is about you. And then I have to figure out okay, if he's not going to be in my space half of the week, how do I parent in this new paradigm? How do I still stay connected in this new paradigm?

Robin | That is something that I would be very interested to hear. But we'll talk about it another time. So let's talk about this Kate, separating money and building your own credit. How incredibly important that is even during your marriage. Are you kidding me right now?

Kate | Yes during your marriage.

Robin | Yeah. Oh, my gosh, and of course, after you have like, this is in your divorce survival kit. But I mean, how important it is that, and I think so many women lose their credit. And everything is joint. Why? It doesn't have to be. Yes, you can have a joint account, but I just don't understand. And if it is that way, now it's like you need to just create your own account and start building it now.

Kate | That's right. Yeah, if you are... Yeah, if you're you know, if everything first of all, if everything is in your spouse's name, that is a huge red flag of financial abuse. If your name isn't on every single account every single marital joint account then you have almost no financial autonomy and when you, if you choose to leave, you know, you're not going to, you may not have access

Robin | Your home, your car, your...

Kate | Yeah. That's right. Your car, your car is very important. Yep. The car is very important, especially these days when you have cars that are, that have apps attached to them. And so, you know, I had a client who had a Tesla, and it was in her husband's name only, and he was stalking her and abusing her and since since the Tesla was only in his name, only he had, she could not get him off of it. To stop stalking her.

Robin | That's awful.

Kate | I finally had her call Tesla and escalate. And say this is a matter of domestic violence. And, you know, what are you doing with this new technology to protect victims? And they haven't, they haven't figured this out, she finally just sold the car. She was like, Screw it. I'm getting my own car.

Robin | Absolutely.

Kate | But she had the luxury of being able to do that. But, um, yes, financial autonomy is so important. There's a wonderful book by a woman named Leslie Bennetts who I adore and I had her on my podcast sometime last year. And she wrote a book called The Feminine Mistake. And it is all about women giving up and the feminine mistake is giving over financial autonomy and independence, that, you know, taking ourselves out of the workforce, making ourselves financially... and I did that. I was a stay at home mom. And but, you know, the impact of that is so much deeper than just, I've been out of the workforce for a few years. The financial impact of that, and Leslie goes into it in the book, the statistics, and you know, all of that. And it's devastating. It's devastating to women.

Robin | So can we talk about that? Yes. I completely understand that, and I can see how that happens. I've seen it many times around me with people I know. So what do you suggest? Because if you are a stay-at-home, mom, and you're out of the workforce and your spouse is 100% the breadwinner, you're you are the 100% house caregiver and child caretaker. What do you suggest? Because it is, I mean, if you do end up in a divorce situation, and you've been out of the workforce for 15/20 years? So do you suggest that people get a part time job? Or no, I mean, that's a hard one.

Kate | It is a hard one. I do, you know, there are different schools of thought on this, from a legal and sort of financial position, if you're getting divorced, right, and you've been a stay-at-home mom, a lot of people advise, don't get a job until the divorce is settled so that it doesn't impact your settlement. In my opinion, get a job, if it's going to impact your settlement. And it's going to be offset by the money that you are making on your own. Like, it's, it's kind of probably going to be somewhat balanced. So like make the money. Please start making your own money, have your own autonomy, don't you know have your own sense of self and you know, and meaning and purpose in the world beyond motherhood now, and I understand. There are so many women who are like, but motherhood is my meaning and my place in the world. And that is my job. And I get that, but by the way, it ends there is a there's like a, we will always be mothers. But when your kids go off and they start their own life and they're no longer under your care, then who are you? And I know women, you know, a woman's midlife crisis is is often at that point. When the kids are you know, as we have flown the coop and moms are like, Well, who am I now? Yeah, I know, my mother in law talks about this a lot about her depression that she went into a very, very dark place when her boys graduated and left.

Robin | It's like your purpose is gone. Right?

Kate | Right.

Robin | Now what’s my purpose?

Kate | And now what's my purpose? Right and how many men feel or are taught that fatherhood is their purpose? Listen, motherhood absolutely is an enormous part of who I am and my life and my, my joy. But it's not my purpose. Right? It's not and I'm not saying that to be judgmental. I'm really not like I get it. But I think we also have to look at it in the context of like, would a man ever say that? Like, were you conditioned to, to believe that and I know motherhood is very different from fatherhood, especially if you have biological children and they came out of our bodies and all of that. But subjugating ourselves to the institution of motherhood and marriage can leave us like just devastated financially. Um, you know, socio-economically, all of those things. And one of the other things that Leslie Bennetts talks about is how, you know, we live longer than men, right? So we have if we give over all of our financial dependence, like if we are completely financially dependent upon men, and then they die, there are more widows than widowers, right? So like, what's the, what's the plan? When you're like 65, and a widow, but you've never worked. And you're, you know, your financial supporter is now gone.

Robin | What a point to make. Yeah.

Kate | And now you're 65. And you're supposed to go out and work and look for a job? So there's just a lot to consider there, a lot to consider. And, you know, if I had again, like, if I had a girl, I would say, What am I modeling? You know, do I do I want my daughter to be, to aspire to to be a wife and a mother? Or do I want her, you know, to, to have more than that?

Robin | Well, I think that, tell us more, because this is where I do want to end with you telling us about should I stay? Or should I go? This is your course. So it's an online coaching, or how does it work?

Kate | Yeah. Well, there's a couple of a couple programs. So the online program, yes, Should I Stay or Should I Go is an online self paced program, you take yourself through it, all of my online programs, all my programs, also have access to a client only Facebook group, so that it's really you know, you can ask questions, I do a monthly community call, which is great for any of anyone who's ever been a client. And that includes people in my online programs. And those community calls are amazing. You know, people bring amazing questions. And I just sort of did them as like, oh, I'll just add that in as well. And they have become like, the favorite thing of people in these programs. So and so yeah. So Should I Stay? Or Should I Go? is my online program, and I also have a group program that I started, called Grit and Grace. And that's for people at any stage of the game, whether you're trying to decide, or you're, you know, going through it, or you're trying to recover from it. And that's again, like also just so great. I love it. I love it. I was like, I don't know, is this gonna work? And they're loving it, they're getting so much out of it, the accountability. The community aspect, right, because women, we love a community.

Robin | Yes and you do talk about the importance, I think that is it's so important to build your community.

Kate | Yeah, it really is. It really is.

Robin | And that is, that goes for really just navigating life. Because I mean and divorce is so difficult. And I mean, life is just gonna always there's always going to be some sort of huge challenge that we are all facing. But if you have people around you like-minded people that you can turn to and just be like, what's going on? How do you? And having a coach like yourself that can help. I think that is just so, so important.

Kate | Yeah, it really is. And that's, you know, women are all saying, like, I just never, I also never knew how much I needed this community. Now that I hear other women's stories. I realize I'm not alone. And like, wow, the power of, the power of that is really immeasurable. It's priceless.

Robin | Yeah. Well, I am just so incredibly grateful for our time together, Kate, and I, this has been like packed full of, you know, information and guidance that I think a lot of women and some men will resonate with and learn from. So. Thank you for all your time my dear. And I really appreciate you and all the work you're doing.

Kate | Thanks, Robin. Thank you so much. It's so good to talk to you. Thank you.

Robin | You too and we'll see you soon.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey