Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 4 Episode 5 with Casey Tanner | Transcript

22.06.23

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today I had an enlightening conversation with certified sex therapist Casey Tanner. Casey is the creator of the Instagram page Queer Sex Therapy. She is a global thought leader in Millennial and Gen Z, gender and sexuality. After coming out as queer at a college that expressly forbid homosexual behavior, Casey made it her mission to disrupt barriers to authenticity. I am very grateful for the important work Casey is doing as a therapist, and an educator around sexual and gender diversity. I asked Casey to help us understand more about the LGBTQIA plus terminology. Expand on different sexual orientations and gender identities. And also answer your relationship questions. I learned so much today. And I hope that you do to enjoy Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love. Hello, our friends, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm so happy to be joined by Casey Tanner. I've been waiting for this interview Casey and I'm just so happy to have you. For those of you that don't know Casey, Casey is the host and creator of Queer Sex Therapy. She's a certified sex therapist. And I'm just so excited to have you and learn more about all the great work you're doing.

Casey Tanner | It's just been on the calendar for a long time. And I feel like doing recording this on June 1, the first day of Pride Month feels very timely for this conversation.

Robin Ducharme | It is the first day of Pride Month. So I knew that and I'm sorry, I didn't recognize that right away. I knew it. But it's so. So what So what will be happening this month for you like with work and personally? Yes.

Casey Tanner | Well, it is. Yeah, on a personal level, this is my 10 year anniversary of being out as queer and my 10 year anniversary of Pride. And the way that I celebrate Pride has changed so much over the course of that 10 years. So I'm in a place now where I like Pride is you know, keeping my pride Right. Like it's not what it used to be almost. And part of that is because yes, this is a big month for me professionally, doing a lot having a lot of conversations like this, which means a little bit of less time for some of the stuff I did in my 20s. But yeah, it's it's just a time of year that really feels like an exception for the queer community. There's more energy, more recognition, more of the right questionsbeing asked.

Robin Ducharme | I just love it. Yeah. So you just said it's been 10 years since you yourself came out as queer. And I think today, what I wanted to do is start out let's just start out with your background and, and how you got into becoming a sex queer sex therapist. And the journey that led you to where you're at. Now I'm fascinated when I when I when I'm learning about you. And when I'm reading your bio, I just want to like, learn as much as they can about how you got here. You said, Wow, it's so fascinating to me, Casey, because you, you were in a career, you were on a pursuit of becoming an evangelical ministry leader. So what does that, how did you? And then and then you do you do say that you had a mental health crisis? And you really, that changed the course of your path? So can you go into your about your, like your upbringing and how this how you ridden this path? And where are you right now?

Casey Tanner | Right? I know how do you get from point A to point B when point A is an evangelical youth pastor and Point B is is the queer sex therapist? Yeah, and the the mental health crisis is all part of that. So I was I was at Wheaton College, a conservative Christian school, we're actually it's not even permitted to be queer. And I was, you know, threatened with expulsion for when I came out as queer. It was around that time that I was dealing with anxiety, depression, a very severe eating disorder. And I'm talking like, severe to the point where I was in and out of psychiatric hospitals for about five years. And at that point, I didn't want to be anything. When I grew up, I actually didn't want to grow up at all I was, I was at that dire of a place. And it was actually during one of my psychiatric hospitalizations where I was in a really dangerous psychiatric facility and found my life actually being threatened in that facility by somebody else. That in that moment, I realized oh my gosh, I I want to survive. If I don't, I don't want to die, I want to be here otherwise I wouldn't be fighting back against this. And it was in that moment I kid you not that I was hit upside the head with this truth about myself that I was attracted to women and that I that I was queer. And at the time, I had no idea how those things were connected. Why in the world with this, you know, life saving realisation be paired with this insight about my sexuality, life and sexuality didn't really seem to go together for me at that point. And from there, I set out on what's been now a, you know, 10 year path of trying to answer that question, how is sexuality tied up with our aliveness and our live intimace, and helping clients to figure out the same because we know that so many people that are unable and unsafe to be authentic and their sexualities come face to face with not wanting to live anymore. And so we know that those two things are connected. And so my journey of becoming a sex therapist has been to help people connect those dots, so that they can live authentically expansively. And love the people that they love.

Robin | Oh my goodness, that is just so beautiful. It really, really is. So you say you love to Wheaton College? Or did you?

Casey | Yes. So I, well, that was my, my senior year. So I made it through, I got out of there. And then I went to grad school, then I, you know, was part of starting up a couple of different therapy practices, became a clinical director at a sex therapy practice, went to University of Michigan for my certified sex therapist, my certification. And then during the pandemic, my work started blowing up on social media. And I was getting hundreds of client requests a month, and I as a solo practitioner, at that point, couldn't fulfill them. And I thought, okay, this, there's clearly such a need for this work, and not enough people that are accessible and doing it. So I created my practice the expansive group, we now serve over 1000 queer clients, specifically around sex therapy and identity work every year. And so now I am, I am less doing sort of the frontline work of seeing clients doing a lot of training and teaching.

Robin | That's incredible. And I love the name, the Expansive Group. I really, really do.

Casey | Yeah, I when I was thinking of a word, I'm like, this just really says it all.

Robin | It really, really does. So I don't you also in your career, tell me also you you do education with businesses and corporations and brands, brand awareness. And yes, so what does that look like?

Casey | Yeah. So I think that for ever, or at least for you know, for the last century, when brands are marketing, and even marketing internally to the people that work for them, their marketing, thinking about their target audiences being divided in half a group of women and a group of men. And we know that gender and our understanding of gender has shifted drastically. It's not that trans people are new, but we are newly learning how to talk about it. And suddenly, you know, the target audience that these companies are looking at a much more gender expansive audience, and they don't know how to speak to that audience. What does it mean, for example, to I mean, you know, I've worked with a lot of brands, even clothing brands, what does it mean to market to a generation of consumers that no longer wants to try on women's pants versus men's pants? How do you have conversations about that? So that's one one level, and then I think other companies that are like, Hey, I just want to build a better relationship with the queer community? How can we not just talk the talk, but walk the walk? What does it look like to establish trust with queer and trans people? Because we know that the number of people identifying in those ways, it's just exponentially growing. And that's the future. That's the future of our world. And obviously, companies,

Robin | It is the future of our world? So I'm just so happy to have you, Casey. Because I thought about this conversation, and I'm like, how am I going to approach this? I feel I feel like I don't like I'm not well educated. Like, I feel like I'm such a sponge I'm supposed to learn. But I don't have all the right information. I know I don't. Because if somebody asked me this question, what is this? I'd be like, I don't know. I can't tell you, I'll find out. But like, that's kind of my approach. So it's like, I like many approaches from like, just like bare bones. I'm gonna, like don't know. And I want to ask you the questions, because I know that there's a lot of people in my position like that don't know. So let's just, yeah, let's learn together well.

Casey | And I love that approach. Because I think that when I first came out, I would get really frustrated by people that didn't just know. And what I've realized over time is this language, this understanding, it's a privilege that not everybody has access to. And even the people who want it don't necessarily know how to find it. And so my approach and I was like, yes, ask the questions, no bad questions, no shame around questions, because it's a privilege to have this knowledge and be able to share it with people.

Robin | Okay, well, I so appreciate being patient with so, so tell me um, In the LGBTQIA plus. Am I saying that correctly? Just right there?

Casey | I mean, I read the order doesn't matter but LGBTI…

Robin | that's always changing as well. You know, as time goes on.

Casey | Yeah, letters get added. So yes, it's not even that complicated. We

Robin | Can we go through just what that is. Okay. And where to use it. You know how to use it?

Casey | Yes. Okay. Yeah.So lesbian, gay, let me I'm gonna have to do to my head, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, intersex, asexual, and plus, sometimes people interchange ally ship with a sexuality as well. As Go ahead. Yeah. Well, and when to use it. I mean, I think that often it's used when people are trying too often it's used in the phrase, the LGBTQIA plus community, people are essentially trying to refer as inclusively as possible to people who are not straight and or not cisgender. And it's an it's interesting and nuanced. Because I think that if you ask people within the quote, unquote, community, I think, you know, we often have justice much different about our lives and the way we approach relationships as we do similarities. So sometimes I think it is frustrating to constantly be grouped with people. Like for example, I'm not intersex. I know very little about the intersex experience. But when people talk about the LGBTQIA plus community, I'm being grouped in to that as if we have something in common and we don't necessarily have anything in common. So I think on one hand, it is inclusive, it's one of the most inclusive ways we have to talk about the community. And important to hold that when you put all those letters together. You don't get a monolith you don't get people who all share this experiences.

Robin | So what is that you just called the I intersex what does that mean?

Casey | Yeah, so intersex. Yeah, so intersex describes the biological variations and chromosomes, hormones and genitalia, variations that cross that exist across to humans. So when we're born, we are assigned sex at birth, right? Most of us are assigned either an F or an M, female or male, but there's actually this, this large range of other biological sexes that people can be assigned at birth based off of hormones, genitalia. And so folks may be diagnosed with an intersex condition other folks talk about it as an intersex identity. It is not an illness, it is not a disease, it is a normal variation in the human body. And because it exists outside of our normal expectations around gender, it has been grouped into the LGBTQ plus community LGBTQIA plus community, and and many intersex folks do identify as queer and are queer. So it's complicated. It's there's layers too.

Robin | Okay, so the A is asexual. Yes. And so that, yeah, what does that mean? Exactly? That means that you're not you're not identifying? Yeah, as Can you please explain it?

Casey | I know, I know. And you know what I think I think people are really hesitant to even try because they're afraid to make mistakes. So I appreciate you trying. So even within a there's a spectrum called we call it the asexual spectrum, or the ace spectrum. So this could be anybody that experiences sexuality differently. From the way we were taught that people quote unquote, should experience sexuality. This might mean that they have a consistently lower libido or sex drive, it could be that sometimes they have absolutely no sex drive at all, or maybe they never experience sexual desire across their lives. Now, not to be confused with people who don't have sex. A lot of people who identify as asexual still choose to have sex for a number of reasons, because we know that a lot of people have sex for reasons outside sexual desire, whether that's connection with a partner, pleasure, or just boredom, right? So asexual people are also not a monolith show up across a spectrum of ways of engaging in sexuality.

Robin | Okay, so the word queer is encompassing it, is it? Okay, because you're saying, okay, just explain that to us, please, Casey?

Casey | Yeah, so this is a word that is obviously evolved a lot. It's a word that was, you know, straight up a slur 20, 30 years ago, and a word that's been reclaimed by the community. And now is a word that anybody can use to describe the community. People define it differently. I usually define it as meaning outside of heteronormativity and outside of what's called cisgender normativity. So outside of traditional expectations around sexuality and gender, if you identify in that way, you are queer. And some people you know, some people, especially on the older generation, still kind of veer away from that word, and that's fine. There's a million other ways that we can talk about it. But right now, it seems like queer is is the most popular all encompassing word to talk about this community.

Robin | So if you're, to the same thing with gay, right, if you're going to be using you can use the word is that right? Do you use the words interchangeably, queer, gay?

Casey | you can use them interchangeably I think there will be some people who identify as gay that don't love the word queer and some people that identify as queer that don't love the word gay. You know, it's just one of those things that it either feels authentic or doesn't but yes, gay is also it's fairly all encompassing, I wouldn't use the word gay to describe an intersex person unless they describe themselves that way. Again, whenever we're talking about labels, the safest, most affirming thing to do is just listen to how somebody talks about themselves. And then exactly language back.

Robin | So in your practice, you do you deal with a lot? Do you deal with clients? You do, right? Because you've got this large group now with your group of therapists, and you're dealing with a lot of clients who are trying to figure out what their sexual orientation is.

Casey | Yeah, we have a number of clients that come saying, you know, I think I'm attracted to the same gender, I don't know, what does that mean? How do I find safety in the world as somebody with this kind of attraction. And we also have a ton of clients that have been out and queer and proud for decades that just want to see a therapist that they know can speak their language, and that they know isn't going to make them as the client educate the therapist. So huge variety of where people are in that identity development journey, when they come see our clinicians.

Robin | So you've already used the word cis cisgender. Okay, so this. Yeah, and this isn't new. I would say even in just my understanding, just hearing it in the last like few years, like maybe three for like two or three years, let's just say. So can you explain that, please, because some people don't know what that means?

Casey | Absolutely. So cisgender is congruent between the sex that you were assigned at birth and the gender identity that you have today. So for example, if you were assigned female at birth, and you identify as a woman, you are cisgender, because those are for lack of a better word matching, right? But if you were assigned female at birth, and today identify as a man, that would be somebody that's transgender, or somebody whose gender identity does not align with that sex.

Robin | Exactly. So does not and so they're not What about non binary? So that would be ok, yes, yes. What is that, because that is somebody that it was assigned to a sex at birth, but they do not want to identify as either.

Casey | Yes, so so, again, a huge spectrum within folks with non binary identities. You have folks that feel like they don't identify with any gender, folks who feel gender fluid, they may identify with one gender, one point in their lives, and another gender and another, folks that reject the binary altogether and say, I'm somewhere I am. And if the binaries here, I'm in outerspace, I don't even I don't relate to the binary. So that would be Yeah, anyone that doesn't identify as a cisgender man, or cisgender woman or trans man or trans woman could consider themselves non binary.

Robin | Oh, my goodness, a lot of terms are their terms. But this is why I wanted to do like, just to talk to you about all this, because I think it's really important, just, you know, to increase awareness, and we have to know each other, and how do you how else do you do that? Like, I don't, I don't want to offend? And, you know, I just, I want to know, as much as I can, so that we have that open understanding, right? Okay, so gender identities, there's just, there's different gender identity terms that are being used a gender by gender, we just talked about cisgender. So this is this is what it comes down to, right is like, because it seems that things are just growing and expanding. Oh, like with terminology. Right? So what you're saying is, if if, if somebody's in any question, not knowing what to say, you're just gonna, would you be okay, asking somebody? I are not asking somebody, but it's just that you like you said, you're just listening for it to understand how they're identifying with themselves. The other person.

Casey | I think, I think that generally, it's okay to ask somebody their pronouns. So here's, here's how to think about these questions. What do you need to know, in order to be affirming versus what is education that you might be able to get elsewhere? So the reason why I lead often with asking pronouns is that's information that I need in order to talk to somebody in a way that is respectful and affirming towards them. Do I need to know when they came out as trans. Do I need to know about their medical transition? Do I need to know what being trans means to them? No, I don't need to know any of that in order to talk to them and be affirming to them. And now if I have a close relationship with somebody and they want to share that part of themselves with me wonderful, but I tend to lean into only the questions that I need to know, in order to make sure that I'm not causing harm. I think sometimes we approach folks who are not cisgender as if they're scientific specimens when they are, they are human beings with the right to privacy. And I think get being mindful that, you know, there are other places we can learn about surgery, there are other places we can learn about trans identities besides the one trans person you might have in your life, right? That's not the place for it. So just yeah, and I know, that's not what you were suggesting. But I think pronouns are a great a great way and a low risk way to open up.

Robin | Okay, so please tell us how would somebody present their pronouns like I'm, I'm so why would I? Why would I? Because I know she/her right. But why is it that I'm saying two?

Casey | Yes. Why is it that you're saying two different pronouns? Yes. I mean, what you're really saying there is...

Robin | Either one, I'm good. I'm good with she or her.

Casey | We're going to get into a grammatical lesson. [laughs] Yes. Right. She is the third person with like, they're just different tenses to talk about your gender. Right. So yeah, exactly. It's basically you're handing them the language so that they have an easier time.

Robin | So what would be an example of pronouns that would, that would identify somebody differently? Like, you're going to mean so that you can have? Exactly that's how they want to be called?

Casey | Exactly. Right. They/them, yep. A lot of people who use they then prefer they them or, you know, they that is right for them, because it, it doesn't make them right fit themselves into one of those.

Robin | I love it. I remember when this when this when I first met, you know, I've got family members that are transgender, and you know, and they're just learning more and more about this. And my nieces partner was they/them, and it takes a little bit right to get into that. Just not saying she is it's they them and now, I got this, I got this. But I, they have a lot of grace for him. Right. And because I'm just like, okay.

Casey | Yeah, you know, it. I mean, you're right, like, this is something that has been learned, and it has been drilled into our brains. And I do think some people are like, great, I'm an ally, I'm gonna start saying pay them tomorrow. And it's like, as you've discovered, it's actually not that easy. And when I was first learning how to integrate them pronouns into my everyday life, because I will just use they them pronouns for anybody who's pronouns, I don't know, because that is the safest way to approach anybody knowing their gender. I just practiced, I practice at home by myself, I practice with YouTube videos, I practice in places where I knew I wasn't hurt anybody. And doesn't mean I didn't make mistakes. And people didn't have to be patient with me as well. But I do think to do this, to do this. Well, you actually have to practice and even practice when you're not around people.

Robin | Yes. I really like that. Is it just approaching everybody. Anybody that you don't know what they them, I think that's so good. Great. It's great.

Casey | Yeah, I mean, why not? Right? Why make the assumption.

Robin | Exactly, so I want to talk about the different types of relationships because this is, obviously let's talk love we talk about relationships. So I just want to learn more and more about this. So tell us about like polyamory, for instance. And I wanted to get into just how what you're seeing with swinging and how does that work? Like because I just add open relationships monogamish another term we're learning about is monogamish. So I just like want to get into these things.

Casey | The fun part let's do it. Yeah, I mean, I'll back up big picture right like really there's there's two main categories of relationship we talked about monogamous relationships and non monogamous relationships, non monogamous relationship non monogamy is an umbrella term for any relationship that isn't monogamous. So polyamory is one type of relationship under the non monogamous umbrella swinging another type of relationship style under the umbrella monogamish could be, you know, somewhere in between those two umbrellas. But yeah, I mean, I think what we're talking about more and more and acknowledging is that it's it's an unrealistic expectation that one person could meet every could meet every single one of your needs. Now, that doesn't mean everybody should be on monogamous. It doesn't mean that non monogamy is better than monogamy. But it means whether you're non monogamous or not, we should be having more conversations about the reality that we need other people in our lives because our asking our partners to meet every single one of our needs to share every one of our hobbies to love all of the same foods, whatever is an expectation that is harmed relationships, it's harmed marriages it's it's unrealistic. I think non monogamy and polyamory take that a step further by saying, okay, not only are we going to get our emotional needs met elsewhere, but we may also get some of our romantic needs met elsewhere, we may get some of our sexual needs met elsewhere. And there's a spectrum of what that might look like. So polyamory, for example, involves relationships romantic and or sexual relationships. with other people, whereas non monogamy might mean a casual sexual relationship that doesn't happen more than once, or a swinging relationship where there is no romantic component. So if we think about it, and less as monogamy versus non monogamy, and we think about it, as each one of us comes to our relationships with a massive set of needs to get met. And each of us can decide how much of those needs we get met in our partnerships, and how much of those needs we get met in our friendships, and how many of those needs we might get met in other partnerships, if we decide to open a relationship,

Robin | I think what I have really opened up to in the last, you know, the years doing doing this and meeting people and talk about relationships all day long, is my openness to more and more of this, right, because we're so you know, talk about religion, and everything, you know, and just how we're raised in society is like, this is the only way to go. And if you're outside of that, it's like, you're, it's not good at all, let's not even talk about it, and you're a bad person. And there's just all this negativity around it. But this is,

Casey | Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I think these conversations can feel can feel threatening. And I don't mean that, you know, I think some people interpret them as threatening to society, but I mean, threatening on a nervous system level, that can be scary. What does it mean that we're considering that having multiple people that you love at the same time is valid when my whole life I've taught that that makes me infidelity. Like, it makes me a cheater. And it's still possible to, you know, to be to cheat within non monogamy and polyamory, I want to make it really clear, these are still relationship contracts with boundaries and containers that help make those relationships.

Robin | And that's what you are helping people do, right? Can you see I mean, you're dealing with people that maybe they're not with a partner, or they are with a partner, and they're trying to navigate, let's say one, or both want to do this, but they don't know how to do it properly.

Casey | Right, exactly. Right. It's so much it's learning and it's so much unlearning, how do I how do I cope with jealousy? When it inevitably shows up? As I open my relationship? How do I stay in alignment with my values? When I feel enraged about something my partner is doing, even though I've agreed to it? And so tough conversations, whether monogamous or not, these are tough conversations. And yes, this is this is kind of a special I have.

Robin | So what do you see? To be the main difference in relation to understanding sexuality with like older generations versus younger generations? Because you said like, this is only getting bigger and more expansive. And people are way more open and your community is growing? So tell us about that. What are you like? Yeah, in the 10 years, you've been doing this? What are you seeing? And? Yeah,

Casey | Yeah, I think that 10 years ago, 20 years ago, the expectation was that people were straight until proven queer people were says until proven trans, we were assuming across the board, what people were, and if they weren't those things, they had to, quote unquote, come out, they had to tell us, they had to transition, they had to change or maybe even uproot their lives in certain ways. That was the norm, you know, a decade plus ago. Now what we're seeing is that because of the information that we're raising, you know, that millennials, and especially Gen Z had been raised within that the starting point is no longer assume straight assume trance, the starting point is, we don't know you until you, Yes, you are. So you might not even have to come out, because we're not assuming that you're straight. And we're not asking a girl if she has any boyfriends at school, we're asking them, Do you study at school? And we're changing the questions that we're asking. So that people don't have these like societally shaped arbitrary identities that they don't then have to like burst out of later in life, they can actually just grow into them more safely and authentically. And of course, very different, right? We know, in certain states like this, this is very muscular, much at risk. There are laws against this, right, depending on your race, like obviously, black trans kids are more at risk than white trans kids. So so I'm very much speaking globally about the trend, but of course, there are still pockets where it's very much unsafe to to live this way authentically.

Robin | I think you're right about how our generation how we're raising our kids differently. I mean, I've got two daughters, and they're teenagers and ever since. Well, I can remember. I you know, I've just said to them, well, they're like, just talking about like, who you attracted to, right. Oh, boys, or girls, hey, whatever, and, you know, no judgment. I really don't like I'm just like, whatever makes you happy.

Casey | Right, well, and I bet that was pretty. asked those questions.

Robin | Okay, so we've got time for some of our community questions. Can we dive into these community questions, Casey? Yeah. I'm okay. So we had a few few community questions come in, and we're going to go through them on IG, but we had extra. So I thought I'm going to take some time. So the first one is, what is the best way to ask your new partner about their close relationship with their ex?

Casey | Yeah, tough question. I think that sometimes we try to figure out the right question to ask somebody when actually, we're the ones that have information. Based on this question. It sounds like the person asking it has some information about how they feel about this person's relationship, their partner's relationship with their ex, it sounds like there's some discomfort, right? They don't know what's going on. They're feeling curious. Something is bringing up some insecurity. Instead of trying to find the right question, I really encourage this person to actually offer the information they already have, and then open the door. So the information they have is, hey, I've noticed you have this relationship with your ex. And I noticed that, you know, I feel dysregulated around that, or it brings up some insecurities in me. I wanted to share that with you get your thoughts? How do you see this relationship? Where do you see it? Where do you see it in the future? Because I think sometimes we're trying to like wiggle our way in with a question that's going to get us that info, when actually I think there's something this person might might share with their partner to start this conversation off with honesty and authenticity. And that doesn't mean that, you know, that doesn't mean that you may not have 1000 questions after that, but start with what you know, and you know, how the relationship makes you feel? Share that.

Robin | It's all about going within.

Casey | Exactly. I think sometimes we ask questions as a way of deflecting from that questions aren't bad, but I think if you're going to ask this person to show up and be honest and vulnerable, where can you start with your own honesty and honesty and vulnerability around?

Robin | Yes. The next question is, how do I communicate my anxiety and fear to a new partner about having sex with her for the first time? This will be my very first experience having sex with another woman.

Casey | Yeah, and how much sense it makes that you would feel?

Robin | Yeah, how do I do?

Casey | Right? What do I how do I move my body? When is it gonna be like, and this is?

Robin | The first time I was thinking about having a boy like, you know, like,

Casey | Yes, exactly. So why would it be different? In fact, not only not only is it not different, it's actually in some ways worse, because we don't have that model for us. We didn't, we didn't get the sex education that taught us this and the way that straight people did, I actually think the way that they frame this question is quite as really perfect way to bring it to this new person, I, hey, this is my first time I'm anxious. And if it's also true, that you're excited, or you're turned on, I would encourage you to also share the nuances of that, right. I think sometimes when we go to somebody, and we just share the anxious part of us, then we might accidentally communicate that we don't want to do it, or that we're hesitant about doing it. So if you if you show up and you say, Okay, I got this anxious part of me, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm worried I'm gonna do it wrong. I also have this excited part of me because I'm really into you. And I kind of imagined no matter what happens, it's going to be fun, right? If we can kind of give that balanced information. I think that's impactful. But oh my gosh, I mean, I'm, I have a massive queer community. We have this conversation all the time. Anyone that is scared away by you expressing anxiety about this is giving you great information about whether or not they're a person that

Robin | Yes, great point, I wouldn't feel safe, right? If you're just saying, Oh, that Oh, no, this may not be the right person.

Casey | But you know, is it allowed? Absolutely right. It's like, it's like whether it's the first time I still have anxiety about having sex with my, my fiance. So you have to be able to talk about these things. And it's a really important red flag if that's not possible.

Robin | Oh, it's just it's also really sweet just to be like, Oh my God, what do I do? I would be like, I feel the same way.

Casey | Like, let's commiserate about this.

Robin | Okay, so this I'm sure you've you've been coaching people on this when my partner wants to open our relationship. I'm considering this as I want to be with him. But I also feel unequipped and uneducated on how this can be possible in a healthy way. Can you talk about the pros and cons of open versus monogamous, and which? Well, which one is your is the is the ideal and why, but really, oh, no, who knows? right until you actually try it?

Casey | Yeah, no, no, there's no, right. There's no ideal and I think yeah, I think that sometimes we have this idea that non monogamy is the more evolved way of being in a relationship and I firmly believe there are ways to be toxic within monogamy and there are ways to be toxic within non monogamy. I think what this person is flagging, which is an education gap is the place to begin. There's a lot of questions that this person needs to answer before they would be ready to make a decision about this. And I think a mistake that people make is saying let's open it up and try it out. Let's explore, boy. See how it feels and, and, exactly, you've got to create a container for it, you've got to play out some of the hypotheticals that can happen. While you're still more regulated, while you're still centered and loving each other. And I would I encourage people considering this to even go as far as to allow themselves to fantasize and play these things out, sit down, fantasize, your partner comes home walks through the door, they've been on a date with somebody else, they've had sex with that person, what comes up for you as it's almost like an imaginal exposure that we can do in advance to learn about the ways our nervous systems would respond to non monogamy. Now, if you if you think, Oh, my gosh, I'm panicking, I'd be so jealous. That doesn't necessarily mean you're not a candidate for non monogamy, it means okay, there's a lot of nervous system work to do before you're going to be in a place where that feels safe. And sometimes, you know, it does get to a point where you've talked, talked it to death, and you do start to learn by doing pros and cons? That's a really good question. I think there's less factual pros and cons. And more just pros and cons for different couples and different people who are considering this. If you're somebody that gets bored, sexually or bored romantically, and you find yourself fantasizing about other people and curious about what it would be like to act on it. Obviously, that's a pro and the column of non monogamy because you have the permission to then explore, if you're somebody that gets really, really activated by jealousy, if even your partner hanging out with somebody of the quote unquote, opposite gender gets your blood boiling, and not in a good way, that's gonna be a column for non monogamy rights. Right? So So even without trying it, we can pull on the information we have either through sort of imagining it, and looking at small examples of non monogamy in our current relationship, whether that's in our in close friendships, or even if you don't, if you get really upset, because your, your partner gives a lot of time to their mom or their family, even that can be information about what it would feel like for you to be in a non monogamous relationship where you're sharing, you're sharing a certain amount of intimacy that you were taught to expect, only happens between partners, with other people or other partners. So there are ways to ask these questions before

Robin | I could imagine, you know, one of one of my fears would be and I'm sure this is a fear that some people would feel Yeah, it's like, if, if I open up my relationship, and my partner, like, literally falls in love with that person and says, like, I'm out. That's that can happen. Right? You must see that.

Casey | Yes, yeah. Yes, it can happen. And, you know, this is what I'll say to that. Your partner can fall in love with somebody else.

Robin | Good. That's true. Or not.

Casey | Yeah. Right. And we, we tell ourselves that monogamy protects us from that. But we know fact research tells us that it doesn't. That being said, I do think that being nonmonogamous if you're going into what the headspace of, you're using it to research whether or not you want to stay in your current relationship, that isn't ethical non monogamy, that's something different. And and that needs to be a conversation because that you can't create a safe container. If you're opening the relationship as as a way of researching Should I leave my partner, no one's going to be able to, to communicate well within that dynamic.

Robin | It's a really good point ethical, non monogamy.

Casey | Yeah, right. That's why we call it ethical non monogamy. Because just like monogamy there used to do it.

Robin | Well, what about if you've got one partner? That's just like, I really want to do this, the other partner says, No. Well, then you're really at a crossroads, aren't you?

Casey | Yeah. Yes, yes, this is a really challenging, unsolvable issue. And I do think that when people take the leap before they're ready, there has serious harm that can happen. I don't, I don't believe that you should always default to monogamy in that case, because that doesn't also seem fair or acknowledging the other partner. But I do think it's knowing if you, if you pressure a partner into doing this, you are setting yourself up for failure in your experience of non monogamy and the relationship will very likely end as a result of that. And then you have to weigh the cost benefit analysis. Would I rather? You know, Would I rather have them join me in this even though they don't want it knowing I might lose the relationship we currently have? Or can I find can I find joy and pleasure in the relationship we currently have? And honestly, no judgment, whatever the answer to that is, but this is not something that that ever goes well. If somebody is pressured into it.

Robin | Yeah. Wow. Well, I'm just so grateful that you came on our show today, Casey, and I really did learn a lot.

Casey | Such good questions. No, I mean, honestly, I really appreciate it. I do a lot of queer podcasts. And we don't talk about these questions sometimes. And I think a lot of listeners are like, wait a second, you're, you're skipping past language that I don't even know what it means. So I appreciate you kind of taking the time pausing and being like wait a second are listening to me not know that word. And there's, there's no shame in that. I didn't know that word five years ago.

Robin | Right, we are.

Casey | We're all learning.

Robin | So tell us about your podcast. Tell us what else you're working on. I mean, I know your community is growing exponentially. And where else people can just continue learning with you.

Casey | Yeah, so obviously my Instagram it's free sex education every day at Queer Sex Therapy, my therapy practices at the Expensive Group. My podcast is at Sexfreed pod. It's myself, my co host, Camille, and we are constantly just answering listeners questions about all of the things that we've talked about today. And I'm also I'm working on publishing my book right now.

Robin | Oh, my gosh, I was hoping you're gonna say that, Casey. Yeah.

Casey | I know. Well, I know I'll be in touch when that's coming out. And we can we can have more conversations, read it. But it's all about developing a more secure relationship with sexuality and more expansive relationship with sexuality.

Robin | Well, I look forward to reading it. And we'll actually have to have you back on to talk about it because that's one of my that's what we'll see you on Instagram Live. And thank you again.

Casey | I'll see you in a few minutes. Of course!

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com To become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com. We read everything you sent. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, and stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening. Take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey