Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 5 Episode 10 with Kate Anthony| Transcript

21.12.23

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today I had a great conversation with divorce coach Kate Anthony. Kate is the host of the Divorce Survival Guide Podcast and the creator of an online coaching program called Should I Stay or Should I Go, she helps 1000s of women make the most difficult decision of their lives. Kate's just released her new book the D Word Making the Ultimate Decision About Your Marriage. Her book provides clarity, peace and answers, women need to make empowered decisions about their marriages, break unhealthy patterns and build the life they truly want. Today we talk about our own experiences of going through divorce and Kate answers some of the many common questions her clients ask her when navigating this often painful and very challenging process. I hope our chat leaves you with some answers you've been seeking, if you yourself are considering or going through a divorce. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love. Hello, Hello friends. Welcome to Let's Talk Love. I'm so excited to be joined by my new friend who I've worked with a number of times and I just love speaking with you and learning from you, Kate Anthony.

Kate Anthony | Thank you so much, Robin. It's so good to see you. And by the way your sweater is for those folks who have not watching not watching. I'm just listening. Robin has the best Christmas sweater on. This is not an ugly Christmas sweater. It's a beautiful Christmas sweater.

Robin Ducharme | Thank you so much. You know what's really funny? Is that it lights up.

Kate Anthony | No. Okay, I'm obsessed

Robin | I was looking for an ugly Christmas sweater. And I really lucked out on this one because I actually really liked my kids. Okay. Thank you so much. I have been diving in and read your book over the past week. And I am so blessed and grateful that I work with one of my best friends who helps me with preparing for our podcasts. And the best part about it is we get to just go through the material together and talk about what we both learned and gained from it and share our own personal stories. We're both divorcees, divorcas

Kate | Divorcees

Robin | I'm going through my second divorce right now.

Kate | Oh Jesus, I'm so sorry, Robin. Yeah.

Robin | I'm in the trenches right now. I'm actually I'm actually through the trench. And now I'm okay.

Kate | Okay.

Robin | I'm, you know, I'm on the almost on the on the flat. That's how I feel

Kate | Okay.

Robin | But I know. Right?

Kate | Listen there is another side. Right. And you know, this, if you've been through it before, like, there is another side. Like you do get there.

Robin | There really is. And I when I was like this all started, I guess in June, now we're in December. And you know, that the hard, the really hard it can be it can be a long time for a lot of people for me the months and months. That felt like a like a lifetime. But I do I know that people that are listening, it could be it could be a longer journey. But you're right. And I think what you're doing what you do, is, is profound. And I want to say Kate, I know you're helping so many so many people get through this incredibly, this increadibly painful process.

Kate | Yeah that's my that's all I want. That's all I want.

Robin | Yeah

Kate | I just want to help people

Robin | You're doing it. You're doing it. Like your new book. So today's the 14th of December, and your new book is coming out on the 28th. So that's only 14 days away.

Kate | 26th

Robin | 26th Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

Kate | Well, 12 day countdown. I know it's crazy

Robin | Okay so your book is called the D Word Making the Ultimate Decision About Your Marriage. Before we dive into this, I want to talk about Well, I think it's so important that we share our stories. Because through our own stories, this is where you know you you've come so far in your own journey in this now because of your learning. And because of all the work you're doing, you are able to help people overcome what you've already overcome. Right?

Kate | Yeah.

Robin | So tell us how did you how did tell us your story? How did you end up being an expert in helping people navigate divorce?

Kate | Yeah, I mean, really, my you know, it's sort of started. As with all of us, usually right with my own divorce. And, you know, what I've learned now is that most people agonize with this should I stay? Or should I go question for an average of four to five years? Like, it's a long time people do not do this. Yeah, this is not like willy nilly. This is not like something that we're just like, on the spur of the moment, like, oh, you know what, I think nobody wants this. Nobody wants to get divorced, nobody, like sets out for this. And so I think it's really, um, you know, I was I struggled with it for years, as well, as most people do. And eventually, I really felt like, there's gotta be a better way, there's got to be a way to cut this, like, nobody needs to suffer for years and years. And so there's got to be a better way to move through this. And, you know, I became a, I became a divorce coach, because, you know, I went through obviously went through my own divorce. And I lucked out, I happened to have had a pretty volatile and terrible and abusive marriage. But I lucked out, in that I divorced somebody who really just was like, okay, let's put our shit aside and focus on our son. You know, and that was truly honestly luck of the draw, I don't think that you can necessarily predict. I mean, I think you can certainly predict when it's gonna go really badly, right? Um, but, you know, it's hard. Like, I have a friend who's getting divorced right now. And I would never have pegged her husband as being as abusive and insane as he's being about the process. And he is being insane. You know, putting up cameras, like, just like, come on, like, No, there's no need for that for like, for what like to watch her do dishes, you know? Right. And Right. Right. So, um, and I would never have Pike's nice. He's like, the nicest guy. So like, was it laid out?

Robin | Yeah, supposedly.

Kate | Right, exactly. And so I think that it's very hard to so anyway, I had this really, you know, by the luck of the draw, I divorced somebody who was willing to put everything aside so that we could then just do this in the best interest of our son. And so a lot of people were asking me how I did it. And I was kind of like, well, we just put our son first, like, it's quite simple, really? Right. Except that what I learned over time, right, as I was, you know, talking to more and more people was that if, you know, what, if only one of you is putting your children at the center, what if the other person's putting them squarely in the middle and using them as pawns? You know, how do you and so, you know, it's been a journey over the last 12 years of, you know, building my business and, and sort of learning more and more and more, and that, you know, I really am, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a learner, I listened to people's stories, I, you know, I keep getting certified in things. I was like, you know, suddenly, domestic violence was like, everywhere, and I was like, Oh, I literally don't know how to support my clients in going through this. And more and more and more and more of them are going through this and what is happening. And so I went and got certified as a domestic violence advocate. As my mother says, maybe I'm victims advocate. Like, I'm not advocating for domestic violence. I think it's weird that we call it a domestic violence advocate, but whatever. So you know, these are this and then I became certified as a high conflict divorce coach, because I was dealing with so many high conflict, divorces, you know, so, I don't know if I've answered your question. How did I get here? I don't know, Robin.

Robin | It's been a been a journey. And I think that that's the other, like, I feel the same way about myself. I'm in this business, this relationship business, and I am a learner. I am like, I don't I don't tout to be an expert in anything really. But I'm just I'm on this journey with the rest of us. And what I love about this, so I was I was so blessed in my first marriage and divorce, to be surrounded by like, incredible people and incredible support, family and friends. You know, we did it very amicably, and very lovingly, we were very deliberate, intentional, but it takes two to tango. I understand that. Uh huh. But but one thing I'm when I was talking to Kirsten, about my best friend about this podcast and getting ready, was the fact that you know, we, we didn't have your book when we went through this the first time.

Kate | Right me neither

Robin | And we have the support of friends, family, and this is this is like, you know, divorce coaching. Right here in one book is like a Bible for Divorce and I think and you do you know, it's full of research. It's full of, you know, experience that you've had with your clients. And I just think it's, it's an excellent, excellent resource for somebody going through this because you're answering a lot of questions. Of course, you're being asked these questions all day long. Right. Okay.

Kate | Yeah right. And every, you know, every chapter is a is, you know, a question that people are asking, right, I tried to really name the chapters, things that, you know, the questions that you're asking, right, like, is it? Is it him? Or is it me? You know, I don't even know who I am anymore. Why are women so unhappy in their marriages? Right? Like, it's just on and on, like, am I being abused? I don't like I feel like I'm going crazy. All of these questions, you know, what, if they're an addict, or mentally ill like, is he a cheater or a sex addict? So I really tried to cover as many of these questions as possible, because, you know, there are recurring themes that I hear over and over and over again. And when you're experiencing it, it's only you, right? And you feel so alone, and you feel crazy, and you feel isolated and right. And what I wanted this book was I wanted someone to open the introduction and open the table of contents and go, Oh, my God. Oh, my God, she has answers for all of these questions. These are the questions that I have that are swirling through my head.

Robin | So are we let's go through some of these, please. Kate's so the first question that you are addressing is, Is it is it me? Or is it him? Right? Is it them? Or is it right? And, you know, I think we're especially women were so hard on ourselves and we internalize right? Where the where there were the caregivers, per se right. Now, it's like, it's for me, it's me, I am. And if you've got that's going like gaslights, you, like, look at the life around you. It's funny, because that was that was the that was what I was getting back when I was, you know, over and over and over again, saying, I'm not happy. We need to work on this. We've got it. We've got how many therapists we've worked with, and always came back to me, it's like, well, Robin, you're not, you know, you got to look at the positives of what's around us. Right? Look at our life. We've got friends, right family, look at our beautiful home. Look at you know, look at the blessings. I'm like, Are you kidding me? Right now? I am that glass half full glass, overflowing Person. Person and I look at life from a positive lens. That is who I am. But it makes me question and is it me? Am I just being some spoiled or unreasonable person to want to? Yes. A healthy relationship? Like I want to have something out of the relationship that I'm not getting a lot.

Kate | Right. That's right. Do I have to do I just have unreasonable expectations? Am I Am I just a miserable person? Right, like all of these things, because very often, if you're in a relationship with someone who is gaslighting, you'd like that. And it's not here it look. If you're, if you're in a marriage, and one person is unhappy, it's an unhappy marriage.

Robin | Yes.

Kate | And if your partner comes to you and says, I'm unhappy, your literal job is to say, Oh, no. What can we do to make this work for both of us, right?

Robin | What can we do? How do we fix this?

Kate | Right? And if the response is, you look at everything we have what's wrong with you? Why can't you just see, you know, all the count your blessings, you know, just be grateful or whatever, you're, you know, your needs are being dismissed. You're being told that what you want and need in your life and relationship don't matter.

Robin | Right.

Kate | And that's, that's, that's,

Robin | You know, and then I'm not looking at, okay, I have to change my mind in order to

Kate | That's not and that's not okay.

Robin | Right.

Kate | That's not ok.

Robin | So, so and so. How do you like, what are some signs you talk about this? It's like, if you are, you know, if you're in like, confused, like that's it like, so tell us tell us how does somebody, like get to this place for okay, actually, I am. I'm not going crazy. Okay, no, no, it's okay for me to be unhappy. And for me to voice that unhappiness. What are some other ways that you help your clients to identify okay, it's not it's not just me.

Kate | Well, so, you know, I think there's, there are a couple of things right first is that we have to do the self work, right? Because we do need to, we do need to know like, oh, do I need to go to therapy for myself? Like, am I just a miserable person? Do I have depression? Or is my marriage making me depressed? Do I have chronic anxiety? Or does am I being gaslighted so much that I'm actually developing an anxiety disorder, you know, all of these things, we have to get in touch with that part of ourselves that knows. And part of the design of an well, the design a large part of the design of an abusive relationship is to disconnect you, from the part of yourself that knows and has the answers for yourself within yourself. Because you've been taught, like you said, I'm not happy, there's something wrong, what's wrong with you, everything's perfect look at the life we have. So then we discount our feelings, we disconnect from our feelings, we begin to dissociate from everything that we actually know to be true. And so the first thing we have to do is get back in touch with that right to like, just try to reground in yourself, and who you are. And then you can start to look at the relationship a little bit more objectively, right, then we can start to look at, okay, what is what is a healthy relationship, if I know my truth, and I know that I'm actually I know my values, I know what matters to me, I know who I am, I know how to set healthy boundaries, all of those things, and this still isn't working.

Robin | And I know how to communicate Kate, that's another one.

Kate | Right? And I know how to communicate how I feel I know to keep it in eye language, and I feel this and right and you're still not being met, right? Then you want to know, then you want to talk about like, okay, so, you know, part of this is that we keep looking at the other person, like, well, he said this, and he's doing this, and, you know, they're making me feel blah, blah, blah. And what I want to do is keep the focus off of the things, all the things that they're doing for a minute, and look at, like, how does this relationship make you feel? Right? How do you feel in this relationship? In a healthy relationship, I have an I have a healthy relationship checklist in the book, in a healthy relationship, you should, you should feel supported. Right, you should feel lifted up, you should feel like your partner is interested in you, as an individual, as a separate being, you should feel that they, you know, foster, you know, they support and foster your relationships with other people. Right, there's all these things that you should feel in a healthy relationship. And if you don't feel those things, then it's possible that the relationship is not healthy, right? You should feel physically safe in your relationship, you should feel that your privacy is safe in your relationship, not because you're hiding anything, but because it's yours. Right, your phone is your phone, your diary is your diary. And your partner should not be up in it without your permission. Because it's yours, not because you're hiding anything, but just because it's yours. Right? Your relationships with friends and family should be supported and encouraged. You know, you should each have sources of emotional nourishment outside of the relationship. And that's, that should be okay. Right? And on and on, and on and on. So, if you don't have, if you don't feel all of these things, then your relationship might be unhealthy. If you you know, on the relationship checklist I have if like, if you answer no to like, a lot of them more than you know, like two thirds or something, then you you're probably in an abusive relationship. And then we can get into that because

Robin | That's it is not.

Kate | It's about power and control, power and control. Always. Yeah, always. And then we can look at what they're doing. Because then it is important to look at their behavior and understand what actually what the behaviors are. Right? What does what do these various forms of abuse look like? The number of women that I talk to every day who don't know that they're being financially abused, because they don't know that they should be entitled to have access to all of the accounts that are in the in the marriage? They don't know. Right?

Robin | And that is just shocking, Kate, it's absolutely shocking. That is still it's still going on and it's so prevalent. And that is

Kate | So prevalent

Robin | That you you advocate which, me too, I mean, you With with all my best friends with all of us, I'm just like, I remember like one of my friends telling me a little while ago that she doesn't have her own account. I'm like, That's bullshit. Are you effing kidding me? We are like you're a 46 year old woman, you don't have your own bank account? What the hell, like you need your credit you need, you need all that you need your own money, period. I don't like I like your state like she's working to. And I'm thinking, why is it not going into her account.

Kate | Oh my God, What?

Robin | You need to be taken, let's just say, and I'm, like, you know, I don't I don't, I don't need to be speaking in then you need this you need that. But it really was just just doing it to protect yourself. And you need to have your own assets. Right? Anything could happen? Yes. And it's like, Absolutely, you need your own money. And so it's just.

Kate | You need your own money, you need your own credit cards, you need like, you need your own credit. So, you know, financial abuse, like 90% of I think it's a good numbers that are in here. But financial abuse. I think accounts for something like 90% of here we go. Financial abuse occurs in 99% of domestic violence cases. Yes, 99. Victims of financial abuse collectively lose a total of 8 million days of paid work each year. 59% of people's credit is negatively impacted by their abuser and 70% of domestic violence victims are forbidden to work by their abusers. Like 99% of domestic violence cases, and that's that includes emotional abuse. Right? Domestic Violence, includes emotional abuse. So it's a really big thing. You know, I love that women who are like, well, he says it's his money. No babe. It's both of your money. If it's if you're married, their marital marital funds. That's it. Yes, it's both of your money.

Robin | Yeah. And, you know.

Kate | Unless you live in a country where it's not, but in most western, you know, cultures, it is.

Robin | And it may take time to untangle that, and, you know, so that you do get your money. But there's, there's, there's strategies. Right, right.

Kate | And, you know, to to the point, if you don't know what accounts that you have, and you don't if your name isn't on all of them, and you actually don't even know what accounts you have or where they are. That's a problem.

Robin | Yes,

Kate | That's a big problem.

Robin | Yeah. And so you are, like, when you're when you're coaching women, predominantly, that are in this situation where they're like, Okay, I've realized I'm in, I'm in a bad situation I need like, there's so many things I don't know, that I need to know. So that's the, that's the other thing. Actually, I just wanted to mention this about just time and timing. Because obviously, if you're in a very unsafe situation, you need to get out like that is your number one priority and get yourself out and get your children out. If you have children. That's, that's an immediate, let's say you're in an unsafe environment, but you do know you need to leave. Okay?

Kate | Yep.

Robin | Your next job is to take this very seriously that you are now you're in research mode, You're a detective mode, you're doing all you can to figure out the answers that you don't have that you don't know yet. You're putting yourself in that position where okay, now I feel confident. Okay, I know this, I know this. Yes, do right. So that's what you're, you're coaching, right?

Kate | Oh, absolutely. And I, you know, talk about it in the book, like, you might, because one of the tools that an abuser certainly will use to control you is, you know, misinformation, right. So they'll say, you know, shocking, but they will say you'll never see your kids again. And unless you have actually been to an attorney, and know that that's complete bullshit. It's, uh, you know, the number of women that I hear say that, like, well, he said, I've never seen my kids again. And I have to say, like, that's, like, literally not how the law works, right? Literally not. So get to know how the law works, right? Learn how it actually works. So that when he says, I'm going to take your kids, you're never gonna see them again. You can go, that's nice, dear. That's just not how it works. What else do you got? Right? Yeah, it's all you're never you're, you know, I'll take you you'll have no money. I'll never give you any money and you're gonna have to leave the house and blah, blah, blah. Okay, again, not how the law works. Yeah. You know, good luck,

Robin | Right.

Kate | I hope that This isn't the way you want to do this, because it's going to cost our children's college funds for you to figure out that this isn't how the law works. So, you know, it's knowledge, you know, knowledge really is power in these circumstances.

Robin | And that's usually where, where you concentrate a lot in your book around. It's getting it's, it's getting back into your power. I know, in my own relationship, it's like, you know, I'm a, I'm a strong, smart woman. And this is not uncommon for us to lose our power. And it's just, it's really happens, it happens. I think about it. It's like this a sink that's trickling water. And over time, you don't really know what's going on. But then you realize, oh, my god, like, and then you're debilitated by fear. So

Kate | Yes

Robin | It's going to take some time, but it is about itself, getting back into self reflection mode, and the other and gaining your power back. And it may not happen overnight, but it will, once you're in that place of awareness first. And then once you know you like once you're in that place, okay, now, it's like, okay, you know, you're just gonna be, like you said, a silent observer.

Kate | Yes, yes. And having that like, really have like, when you have been so disempowered, right, and it happens to all of us, happen to me, happened to you, we've so disempowered, we lose ourselves, we feel like a shell of our former selves and all of the terrible things. And then once you start to, like regain that by learning to reconnect with yourself by, you know, connecting with your intuition and strengthening yourself, and then strengthen yourself with knowledge. And listen, I will tell you, the women that I work with are fucking powerhouses.

Robin | Yes,

Kate | They are literally, they they know the law now. They are financial. They're their own financial analysts and, you know, forensic accountants. They are there. They work with the attorneys so much that they understand the law, they don't strategy, the spreadsheets like they are, and these are many of them had been stay at home moms who felt completely disempowered, who had lost all sense of self, and they are badass is now throughout this through this process. And I think that that is just one of the greatest, greatest thing. It is one of the most amazing things to witness is these women not just coming back into their power, but like going beyond right, stratospherically just boom. You know, and these are women that they didn't know that this is who they could be. Yes. You know, it's beautiful. It's gorgeous.

Robin | Yeah, it really is. So you made this you made a mention of this. The first when we first started talking around the studies, that this was fascinating to me when I read this about unhappy how women are the so sorry, this is based on your interview with Leslie Bennett's right.

Kate | Yes, yeah,

Robin | She's the author of the feminine mistake. And she's so she can tell us about that study, please. Because I was just fascinated when I read that, Kate.

Kate | That the happiness? Who's happiest? Yeah. So they did the study, and it ran and they determined that of like, you know, sis, hetero people. The very, very happiest people in Western society are married men. Then, single women, then single men, and the least happy people on Earth are married women. So you've got married women are the least happy and married men are the most happy, which basically tells you all you need to know about how marriage works for women, and versus men. Right? So women, you know, this is in my chapter. Why are women so exhausted in their marriages, because marriage benefits men on the backs of our labor, whether it's emotional, domestic, physical

Robin | Like the kid’s appointments, who's doing all the travel who's planning for Christmas, who's wrapping all the gifts who's buying all the gifts? I mean, the list the list goes on.

Kate | The list goes on. Exactly. While we're busy doing all of that as even as working women. They are getting ahead in their careers at you know, exponential rates, because because they have the time. And they also PS have three hours more leisure time a week than we do. Why? Because we're doing all the work.

Robin | Right.

Kate | Like how often, you know, Sunday morning they wake up and they go play golf. While we take care of the kids, and we do the laundry, and we clean the house, and we're Baba Baba blah, blah, right? Or they're or they're, you know, they come home from work and they go to the basement and play their video games.

Robin | Yeah. And I think, you know, the other the other thing that I, this book is not just for coaching people through divorce, because I think if you know, the other thing, there are marriages that you know, once identifying a lot of these things. Yeah, it's like, you might be like, Okay, actually, we we need to work on this. And if you've got a partner that's willing to go the distance with you about all these things that you feel unbalanced about, let's just say.

Kate | Yes. Yeah

Robin | Your marriage could possibly be saved. Right. But I think it's

Kate | Yes

Robin | Out that this is what's going on in our society. And it still is. Yes.

Kate | Oh, yes, it is. Absolutely.

Robin | It makes sense to me that the unhappiest population were the married women. It did.

Kate | It makes sense to all married we're all all women who have been married go no shit. Right. And the men are like, What are you talking about? Marriage is great. Yeah, dude. Because of me. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and thank you for saying that. Because, you know, I am not pro divorce.

Robin | No

Kate | I am pro healthy, happy and equitable relationships. And women are not happy in their relationships. And it is not just our job to fix it. It is sweeping the collective. There are two people in this relationship. And if one of them is not happy, it's not a happy marriage. And it's

Robin | Absolutely

Kate | And it's peoples jobs to fix it.

Robin | Yeah. Yeah. So you this is something that you address in the book, big time is about children. Okay. And there is still this this belief. Of course it is is, you know, we can't break up because of the kids.

Kate | Right? Right. Yeah.

Robin | Well I grew up in with my parents who fought nonstop

Kate | Right there you go..

Robin | I can't, you know, I remember them getting back together, like on, you know, maybe, you know, by the seventh time, and like, even every time they get back together, things are good for a couple weeks, and then you know, the shit would hit the fan again. And here we go. Dad's packing his suitcase. We're not sure where he's going. But you think that was good? Absolutely not.

Kate | No, absolutely not.

Robin | But anyways, but you know, and then there's, of course, the families where, you know, you never did witness fighting, because the parents are so that they never fight. So, but maybe they were unhappy behind closed doors. I guess what I would like to know more about because you do talk about this in the book is the research that you that, of course, you're sharing with us around Should I stay for the kids? Right?

Kate | Yeah. The answer is no. For a variety of reasons. Number one, that's a lot of pressure to put on a kid. And I'm not saying that you're saying to your kids are staying together for you. Although that's been said. But they feel it. Listen, kids know everything. If you've ever had a kid, you know, that they know everything. They have bionic ears, and they have bionic intuition. They literally know everything. And so the idea that you're hiding this from them is really naive. These kids are being raised in, you know, in homes that don't feel good. And then they go to you know, Susie's house and their parents are like having a fun together. And they're doing this together. And they're doing that together, right? And even if you're like saddle lighting, your spouse, and you're like, one of them's doing pickup over here, and the other ones doing this, and then on Sunday, I'm gonna take them and then on Saturday, I'm gonna take them and you're not actually spending time together, like, and you're calling that a family. So even if it's not toxic, if it's not happy, the kids either are picking up on it, or they are embedding this as the definition of family and marriage.

Robin | Yes. You’re teaching your children that this is what a healthy relationship looks like. Or this is No,

Kate | That's right.

Robin | We model what our parents.

Kate | That's right. Yeah. If you don't want when I say to my clients, is this what you want for your kids? Do you want your kids to have this marriage? And they're like, Oh, my God, no, and I'm like, okay, then then that's your answer. Because that's not then you're not listening. It might be a short term, you know, I don't want to disrupt their lives or whatever, but you have to look at the like long term effects of children living in dysfunction. So, you know, there were these studies done that said that, you know, children from divorce, there was this one book that was written you years ago, unfortunately, not even that long ago, it came out in 2000, I think, in which this woman did this research and basically was like, you know, all kids from divorce go on to have like long term relationship problems, they become addicts alcoholics, they do worse in school, they have anxiety and depressive disorders, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, it turned out that her like research group was it was not peer reviewed. And her her the subjects of the study were all from the same county, in the same state. Right, and, you know, in the United States, and most of them had domestic violence happening, right. So it was like, This is not a study. This is like a very, like a microcosm of dysfunction. So these kids, were gonna, like, these kids were gonna be messed up, no matter which way you slice it, because they were experiencing toxicity and domestic violence in their lives, whether married or divorced. And so that's the larger research, the bigger research that has been done. And by the way, these are the studies that abusers like to pick up to keep victims in, in their, you know, abusive relationships. Well know the study say that you can't leave me because you know, it's gonna mess up our kids, so you better stay again, knowledge is power. That's not what the research says. That's what one flawed study said. And so what you want, and maybe a few others, but you know, in recent years, the broader data suggests that it's not divorced, that screws up kids, it's toxicity, whether it's in your in a marriage or in a divorce. And

Robin | Yes

Kate | Right. So listen, be, you know, even if you are the only one who's committed, you know, because then the next question that people say is, yeah, but I'm willing to, you know, do the best for my kids and not be toxic, but he says that he's gonna take me to court and drag me through court and do all of these terrible things, right. And you can't control what he's gonna do, you can't control what the other person is going to do. And but what you can do, but by the way, staying in that marriage, under duress, and threat is not, that is not healthy, that's very dangerous for everybody involved. And so you have to understand that if you stay in a toxic relationship, your kids, even if you think you're, you know, in running interference, you're mitigating it, you're, you know, protecting, you're not, you know, what you're doing is you're keeping them in it 100% of the time, and you're exposing them to this toxicity 100% of the time, because most courts certainly in the US really favor 50-50 The likelihood is unless there has been physical violence that you're the spouse will get, you know, it'll be 50-50. So even if you only have them 50% of the time, you are giving them a place that a safe place to land 50% of the time, you're giving their central nervous system, time to decompress. And you're giving them the gift of perspective, so that they understand what the difference is. I feel this way at dad's house, and I feel this way at mom's house. What feels better.

Robin | Right

Kate | And that way you give them you know, the gift of choice in their future. They get to choose when they're, you know, when they're older, what kind of relationship they want. If they're in toxicity all the time, they don't have choice. That is what they'll choose. Because that's what they know. And you're telling them that that that's love.

Robin | Yeah. So tell me, how do you this is you have this as part of the book. How do you tell the kids about the divorce? How do you explain

Kate | Yeah

Robin | To them? Because, yeah,

Kate | Well, there's like it's, it's it's long, right? There's the before there's the there's the actual conference, there's the prep for the conversation, there's the conversation, and then there's like the after the conversation and telling the kids is a really hard, look. It's like it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. Yeah. The hardest thing you'll ever do,

Robin | I remember that and my family. It was it was thankfully I had a partner that was like, we had a day we had a plan. You know, we were, you know, because we were so concerned about how they were going to take it

Kate | Sure, that's That's right.

Robin | Not the case for a lot of people, but you do have some some tips for that. Being honest, you know, but it's not. Yeah

Kate | Not too, but like, you know, appropriately so right. So, I mean, the first thing is that ideally, you want to tell them together. Ideally, you want to get on the same page. Ideally, you want to agree on the narrative. Your kids don't need to know. You know, I hear a lot of people are like, the kids need to know the truth. The kids need to know the truth. What is truth? What is truth? Oh, okay. You know, the kids need to know that you had an affair. Okay. Is that true? Okay, so you want to tell the kids that I had an affair, first of all, like, no. Secondly, why did I have an affair? Was it because I've been emotionally neglected and abused for the last 10 years? And like, verbally abused and all of the things right? So so we're going to talk about like, which truth? Where do where does the truth begin? Where does the truth end what is truth? Right? The narrative is, as much as possible, like, we, we love each other. We just are not in love with each other anymore, or this just doesn't this, you know, it doesn't work for us anymore. We know what we told our son, he was three. So we said mommy and daddy, we have a really hard time getting along. And we and we get along better when we live separately, and we are in two houses. You know, tell them you have to tell your children, it's not their fault, no matter what you have to tell them because children are naturally self centered. Yes, because they have not developed their prefrontal cortex yet they do not have the ability to think outside of themselves, they think the entire world revolves around them. And that's developmentally appropriate. So you got to make sure that they understand that this, this is not the you know, their fault. They didn't cause it, there's nothing they can do about it, they can't control it. And, you know, you really, so ideally, you want to sit down together and have this conversation, but you really want to have a whole bunch of stuff hammered out first. You don't want to leave them hanging like you want to be able to answer their questions. They want to know where they're going to live. So don't have the question when you don't don't have the conversation when you don't know. Well, I'm not really sure, honey, we haven't decided that yet. No. Decide those things before you tell the kids, right? And this might mean that you're sleeping separately into separate bedrooms for a while and you can have the conversation that like, you know what, we're having a little trouble getting along, we need a little bit of a timeout, we're depending on the age of your kids. You know, sometimes people say daddy snores you know, and that's fine. But if children know that it's not because Daddy snores if children know that you're fighting like cats and dogs. Not naming the things that are happening in under their nose is gaslighting them. So you, you want to name the things, you know, you know how mommy and daddy have been fighting a lot lately. I know. You've seen that. And you've heard it, and I'm sorry. So we're gonna sleep in separate bedrooms for right now. Because we want to just we just need a little space, and we need a timeout from each other. And if your kids say, oh my god, does that mean you're getting divorced? You can say don't say like, no, no, no, no, no, no, honey, no, no. Right? Which is, which is most of our impulse, right? But you when you say that, then you make, you know, then you're lying. Because then when you do get divorced, they're gonna be like you said this wasn't happening, right? So you might say this, that's one of the things that we're talking about. And we don't have any answers right now. When we do have answers, I promise you'll be the first to know. Right? Right. You want to agree on a narrative, you know that? Whatever that is, but usually it should involve no blame.

Robin | And I shouldn't blame but you know, you can like you say this over and over again in your work is like reminding everybody all you can do is keep your side of the street squeaky clean. Okay? All

Kate | That's right

Robin | Enjoy yourself. You're you you. Unfortunately you can't control the narrative if it has to be if that other person is not able, right willing to be like, you know, in our in my first it was like it was your Mom's decision. I'm I'm I'm heah it wasn't my choice. And I'm going well, I had no choice. I could not control that narrative, right as much as I wanted to. And I just in my, in my mind and in my heart in my heart, I was like, in time my children are going to, as they get older, they're gonna see like, it's not a blame

Kate | They'll figure it out.

Robin | I wasn't.

Kate | That's right.

Robin | And the other thing, Kate that I wanted to mention about this, because you talked about how the other thing I did want to say is like, once you know, the dust settles and your children when they're living in two different homes, your children are going to start seeing you as a happy, healthy person.

Kate | Uh huh. Right.

Robin | And it's like, and it's like, so that is a very that is that's really good for them.

Kate | Absolutely right. Let's say it's really good for kids to have a happy mom

Robin | Yes, I am happy.

Kate | That's right.

Robin | And they're loving it.

Kate | That's right.

Robin | The other thing that between my first husband and I, we were so determined to do was because I grew up with with divorce and a lot of separation back and forth, back and forth. My parents. What I realized, is like, our foundation, that was what was rocked. Right? Yeah. It's like, it wasn't because my parents it was because there was volatility. It was like our foundation like that we stood on was not stable. And I said to David, my first husband, I was like, this is what we need to do. I know they're going to be two separate homes and as scary as that sounds, as long as they are loved and safe and that we can maintain our love for each other and respect for each other. They're going to feel that safety. And that foundation is not rocky. Right. Of course there's a

Kate | That's right. 100%

Robin | I mean, the foundation is strong.

Kate | That's right. That's right. And that's the most an even if the foundation, only the foundation in your home, right? Because that's all you can control. Right? Even if that is the only strong foundation, they have a solid, safe place to stand in their lives. And, you know, it's it's enough, it is enough. It's not everything. It's not ideal to have chaos and volatility in the other home. I mean, my my kid was raised with that in his dad's house, just tons of volatility and instability and chaos and all of that, you know, and now he lives with me full time. Like, yeah, he figured it out.

Robin | Yep.

Kate | He loves his dad. He has a relationship with his dad. But like, he didn't want to deal with that anymore.

Robin | Yep. So the other the other before we go, because there's so much I wanted to talk to you about photography. I just want I want you buddy, read your book. I really can't I just I love it so much. And I think if you're going through this,

Kate | Thank you

Robin | Such an amazing resource, so I'm very proud.

Kate | Thank you that means the world.

Robin | But one thing I did want to mention, because this is very important. I'm about therapy. I have I've been I've experienced so much marriage therapy, you know, and hey, in my next relationship, it's like, I will continue I'm in my own therapy on a regular basis. Because just so yes, none of us have that ability or that privilege. But if you can,

Kate Anthony

Uh huh, yes.

Robin | But marriage therapy, okay. First of all, the one thing that I would want to say to people is like, not all therapists are, are equal. And you think you're doing the great thing by going to a marriage therapist, but I would encourage people to do their research and ask for you need to be asking around who is really good. Have you had such great success? Because I have some really, really bad therapists and an excellent therapist. And there's of course there's nothing in between. But that's really important.

Kate | Yeah. And but it's so important.

Robin | Yes. And number two,

Kate | So important

Robin | Which you talk about is you are not going to therapy with somebody who is emotionally physically mentally abusing you, you you say abuse is, is not a relationship issue. Nor is it a communication problem. It's an abuser problem. And no amount of couples therapy is going to help this is a really really really good point for

Kate | Yeah, yes it I mean it is I can't drive it home enough. Not only is couples therapy not going to help it will harm you. It will it will harm you because they will use your vulnerabilities against you the vulnerabilities will be exposed in couples therapy first of all there are there are three things that are like contra indicated for couples therapy one is active abuse, one is actually a four things active addiction.

Robin | Yeah.

Kate | And active affair

Robin | Right, right

Kate | I didn't know that my you know, it's like why did it Why did our couples therapy work for everybody else? Oh, because you were fucking everybody around us.

Robin | Still having an affair. It's like you're not here to fix it. If you're still having that affair.

Kate | Right. You're not here to fix You're not here to fix the marriage, you're here to figure out how you can like keep work, you know, playing one over on me. And then the other one is an active agenda, like if you've one person goes in wanting to change the other, right? So a good couples therapist will recognize abuse, and will terminate therapy. I think a therapist who it's an ethical gray line, but I do think a therapist who has a conscience will also pull you aside and say, listen, this is what's actually happening. What you're, what you're experiencing is abuse. This is not what therapists are trained to do, it's an ethical gray line, because they're not supposed to be directive, they're not supposed to be sort of prescriptive, right. Or even like diagnostic, even though like they do it on the paper. They're not gonna like, I mean, whatever. They're not supposed to say those things to you. But, uh, frankly, I think they should, I think it's important for someone to say I do think that your spouse is abusing you. And you may want to, like I can't continue with couples therapy, but you do need to find yourself a good individual therapist. And I've had a lot of clients whose couples therapists have said that and then they've gone on to continue individual work with that therapist, which again, ethical gray line. But I think it's really important to find someone, if they if they look, if someone, if someone fires you, there's a good chance, they've seen something that makes it contraindicated, that they know that they can't work with you. And so you may want to ask them why. Yeah, but you know, you are exposing yourself, you're exposing your vulnerabilities. You're, you're, I have a client who just who said to me that she was in couples therapy for a really long time. And the couples therapist was constantly trying to get him to, like, understand that what he was doing was not okay. And it was years and years and years. And then the his her husband didn't like it. So they went to another therapist, and that therapist was basically like, he's not going to change. So here all how can you mold yourself into being like a better wife for this guy who's not going to change?

Robin | Yes,

Kate | Like what's insanity? Insanity? Please don't do it.

Robin | No. Okay. So your advice? I love this. Your therapists advice, Kate after you went through your divorce. Okay. This is so funny, because I'm like, I'm totally in this place right now. Like I said, but you said that, at the time of it. You said, at the time of my separation, my therapist told me I could consider myself certifiably insane. For the next two years, certifiably insane, she actually said those words. And you said, to find love, and my next live is the love of my life for the next six months. Use it and she's like, certifiably insane.

Kate | Yeah.

Robin | And you know, funny, because I was talking to somebody I'm working with yesterday, and she's she said, this term, I've never heard it before. It's called Post Traumatic Divorce Disorder.

Kate | Yeah, is that yeah,

Robin | That might be a real thing.

Kate | I've heard about that recently. I've never really heard of it either, either. I don't think it's real. But I mean, it's, I mean, it's real. It is real. But you're in it. Right? And that's the certifiably insane part, you basically cannot trust yourself to make big life decisions, right? I mean, like, they, they say, like, if you, you know, when you get sober, they're like, don't make any big changes for the first year, don't. And they also say, don't get into another mentor relationship for the first year. Because it's really, you, you're not thinking with your rational brain. And when you get divorced, I felt like I was making really good decisions. And then I look back on now I look back on them. I was like, oh, my God no, you don't know who you are. You don't right. Like just take a year. Just take a year of look, I mean, some of us like to get out there and have a little fun and lord knows I did and it was really good for me actually. Because, you know, my husband was like, you're not a sexual person. And he like all these things. And I was like, you know,

Robin | Actually, I am just not with you.

Kate | I'm actually a very sexual person, thank you very much. You know, and he's like, you know, whatever, right? And so it's those things are good for you. But the danger is of thinking you're gonna you know, thinking you're in love when you're really suffering from post traumatic divorce disorder.

Robin | And you're lonely or you're No, all the all the things I think I think like I like the idea. Like you said, it's like this, you know, after you get a divorce for that one year, or however long it is taking that time for self love, self care, self exploration, and having

Kate | Healing

Robin | Healing. Yeah, yes. Exact getting yourself back. Yeah, right. All right.

Kate | Yep. Absolutely.

Robin | I want to thank you, Kate. Anthony, it's always a pleasure.

Kate | Thank you Robin thank you so much for having me.

Robin | I'm gonna close our, our little chat with a blessing, which I do with every guest. And it's all based on the learnings that I've gained from you this week. So may we have faith in our resilience and the wisdom to reach out for help from our loved ones and experts in the field, while going through the process of divorce. May we come through divorce with dignity, acting from a loving place for ourselves, our children and our loved ones. And may we view divorce as a fertile ground for self realization and growth, divorce can be an opportunity to connect to our true selves and step into our true power. So thank you, Kate. Anthony.

Kate | I love that so much. Thank you, Robin. Thank you.

Robin | Please visit Realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening. Take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.