Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 4 Episode 10 with Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy | Transcript
27.07.23
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Robin Ducharme | Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today I am talking to Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy. Dr. Lauren is a licensed psychologist and certified sex therapist. We dive into her new book that she co-authored with Dr. Jennifer Vencill called Desire: An Inclusive Guide To Navigating Libido Differences In Relationships. Dr. Lauren talks about one of the main reasons people come to her for sex therapy, because they have differences in libido. She explains how much of the time it's not just about one person who has high libido versus the other that has low libido. Rather, it's learning the difference between how each person's desire is cultivated. It could be that one person has predominant style of spontaneous desire, whereas the other is responsive desire. Her book is so educational and informative and full of ways that we can improve our sex lives. I hope our conversation gives you new insights and ideas for adding more pleasure into your own life. Because really, who doesn't want more of that? Enjoy.
Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love
Hello and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm so happy to be joined by Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy. Lauren, thank you for being with us.
Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy | Oh, thank you so much for having me here.
Robin Ducharme | I am going to introduce you. I know you are a licensed psychologist. And you are a sex therapist. And the author of this new book, which I'm going to hold up for those of you that are watching this, it's called Desire: An Inclusive Guide To Navigating Libido Differences In Relationships. And you co-wrote this book with Dr. Jennifer Vencill. Did I pronounce her name correctly?
Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy | Vencill.
Robin Ducharme | Yeah. It's fantastic. Lauren, I'm just so happy to have you. And we're going to talk all about sex, which is Yay.
Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy | Thank you so much, one of my favorite subjects to talk about.
Robin | Oh, mine, too. You know, we talk about relationships every week on the podcast. And every once in a while. We'll talk about sex. And like, who doesn't love to talk about sex?
Dr. Lauren | Most people. [both laugh]
Robin | Yes. No, that's hilarious, Lauren. You know, it's funny. I said that out loud that I thought in the back of my head. Actually, a lot of people don't like to talk about it. But I think we do with our friends. But maybe not with our partners.
Dr. Lauren | Right? Yeah, exactly. They like this, like, they'll listen to podcast. But it's so different to talk to your own sexual partner about things that you want or don't like, or that's a whole other can of worms.
Robin | Yes. And so that's why I think this is why we do what we do. Because I, I mean, I'm, I'm a 45 year old woman, and I think now I can honestly say how important sex is to me. I, you know, if I, if I was talking if you were talking to my 30 year old self, or I don't think I would have been in that place. But I want to talk about it, I want to learn about it. I want to know more, I want to understand myself more so that I can have more pleasurable sex. So that's, that's why we're talking about this today.
Dr. Lauren | I love that. And I also love how it highlights for you, Robin as it does tend to be true for so many people that there are seasons of life, where maybe this is more significant or more of a priority other times where it's not as high on the priority list. And that's absolutely common among sort of an entire lifespan and among the life of a relationship.
Robin | Yeah. So tell us how you became, what led you to become a sex therapist, and then we'll talk about why you and Jennifer decided to write this book, which I loved your book. So we'll dive in.
Dr. Lauren | Thank you so much. You know, it's such a common question I get asked and I always am, you know, trying to work on some sort of interesting story to put to it. But you know, the answer is that I knew when I was in the ninth grade that I wanted to be a therapist. And actually specifically a psychologist. Yeah, I think, you know, my, my teacher, Mr. Botnick, in ninth grade, took a class that, you know, had you take, basically a personality test, I think with some, like different colors, I think it was a color test. And it came out with all of these different, you know, professions, and it was part of a life skills class. And one of the things that came up was psychologist and at 14, I didn't know what that was. So it came with this computer program back on, like, really old ancient Macs at the time. And you look it up, and it's it told me what a psychologist was. And I was like, That's it. That's what I'm going to be. And then over the next few years as a young teen, sort of noticing how many questions I had about sex, how nobody was talking about sex, how there was so little education and information about it. I was just really curious. And then I realized at some point that I could put these two things together that I could be a therapist, a psychologist, and I could specialize in sexuality. Yes. So it just I don't know, it just sort of took off at a young age.
Robin | I think that's just so awesome. And so you are Canadian.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, Canadian and talking to you will bring out my accent. Really? Yeah.
Robin | Yeah. It's funny. I don't even think I've got an accent. But okay, that's great. I didn't realize, you were telling us. Yeah, yep. Yeah. Okay, and then. So now you're in Minnesota.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah. Right. Yep.
Robin | So tell us about what motivated you and Jennifer Vencill to write this book desire.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, yeah. You know, we were, we were friends, we came from the same Postdoctoral training program here at the University of Minnesota. We went out to dinner one night, and, and I said to Jen, you know, desire concerns, desire, discrepancies, low libido, these are the concerns that people come in to see us with, you know, every day of the week. And what we noticed is that most of the books that are written about this are aimed at cisgender women. And, and that's, that's perfectly fine. That's a demographic that deserves to have, you know, books written for them and information out there. But we kept finding that there wasn't a good book to refer our clients to, that was inclusive of sort of all genders, so including, you know, sis men, including trans non binary folks. And so, originally, we set out to write a book about low libido, that was inclusive of all genders. And so it was going to be a low libido book. And that's how it started. It didn't end up being a low libido book, it ended up sort of shifting along the writing process. When we originally pitched the book, to sell to a publisher, it was a low libido book that was inclusive. And we started to realize that, you know, when we talk to folks about low libido, it's almost like I'm hard pressed to even think of a situation where somebody's come to see me, who wasn't in a partnership coming in with that concern. And so we started to really think on it. And it's like, it's more the discrepancy around desire in the relationship that people are coming in with, rather than just an individual saying, my libido is low, and I'm distressed about it.
Robin | So that is what exact so people are coming into the office with this concern, and you're undercut you're uncovering the collective, which is, it's not so much an individual, oftentimes, it's the relational. There's a relationship, but big relational component.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, it's a dynamic between two people, because or two or more people, because you could have you could be the, you know, quote, unquote, lower libido partner with this partnership. And then let's say there's a breakup, you start a new relationship that could completely change in the next partnership. So with that, it's not an individual thing, then that's a between people thing.
Robin | Yes. And so, I love that. The other you know, I learned so much from reading your book, because there is so much sex education. You are talking about gender and gender identity and how and in the fluidity, you know, that we're, we're in now when our collective understanding that we're using the right terms, so there's a lot of education. Thank you for that. And then there's, you know, understanding our bodies understanding ourselves, there was just it's such, like I said, whenever we first started talking, I was like, This is gonna be my new sex Bible, because I read it, and I got so much out of it. But I know I'm going to be turning back to it over and over again, for this, this, you know, reference points and exercises, there's, there's a lot of prompts, there's questions to ask, there's, I was journaling, to your encourage, you're encouraging people, obviously, as you're reading the book, to reflect on yourself, and your partner, asking yourself these questions. And there's just so much, so much to know. And that's okay. as we as we get older, we change or we change, our sexual desire changes, our health changes, our bodies change. And so it's just this progression. I think that's just awesome.
Dr. Lauren | Thank you so much. I'm honored to hear that it's a Bible kind of book for someone that's, that was our hope, and writing this as it becomes sort of a go to on the topic, you know, for, you know, both the topic of desire and also desire differences in partnerships. Because that specifically, is, you know, not as often written about the, you know, the between partners kind of aspect. But, yeah, I think there's, there's so much that we talk about one on one or two on one and in our sessions. And we keep being reminded, you know, after 10 years of talking about sort of the same concepts, you start to think that everybody knows the things that you're talking about, and we're reminded constantly, this stuff is not out there. It's not as you know, no, it's certainly it's common for us, because we talk about it all the time. But over and over, there's so much sort of foundational information about like how your body works, that there's more than one type of desire, that desire differences are to be expected. And I think sometimes we forget, you know, very for brief moments, because we're reminded constantly, that that is new information for so many people, because where would you have learned that?
Robin | Right? So you, you often like in your office, one of the biggest things you're hearing people say is I have lost interest in sex. Right?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah. Yeah.
Robin | And you say, despite popular narratives, to the contrary, this is not just an individual problem, but a relational difference. So you're helping people navigate their desire differences. And the one thing that I was like, ah, so it's just so many learnings learned. We're gonna go through quite a few, but you just have to read the book, because there's no way we're gonna get through us in one episode. But yeah, say sex is not a drive.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah.
Robin | So let's talk about that. Because that's just something that people like your sex drive. Well, let's be more accurate about this. Like, yeah, just the terminology, we have to get clear on right.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, when we talk about that, and, you know, a social media space, there's a lot of people who will push back. Yes, it is, of course, it is. Because I feel driven because I feel this is natural, it's human. And then, you know, the argument that you know, as a species to survive, we need to procreate. Well, that just speaks to the times where you're having procreative sex.
Robin | Right
Dr. Lauren | How about all the other times, yes, which is the majority. So then maybe you have sex, you know, a couple of times a few times until a prank, and then what happens after that. So a drive in the way that we understand Dr. Theory, a drive is something that you do to keep you as, as an individual system alive, that if you don't tend to it after a certain amount of time, you won't survive. So they're things like food, and water, and sleep. You know, those are the big ones. You can only go so long without those things, because you before you as an individual system, will no longer be here. Yeah, sex doesn't operate that way.
Robin | Yeah. So people maybe argue that but that
Dr. Lauren | They'll argue it.
Robin | Yeah.
Dr. Lauren | And that's where I very seldom do this, but I'll pull an expert card every once in a while. This is what we know about drive theory. And there's another word for what you're describing. And it doesn't mean that people don't feel this strong desire, or a strong motivation. There's another framework to understand that it's called an incentive motivation system. And what that means is you have to have a good reason to seek it out. There has to be something intrinsically interesting about that for you as an individual in order to be motivated and interested,
Robin | Right. So this was you share a lot of great stories with your clients in the book. And this is about the motivation. And this is why it's understanding your motivators for wanting sex, right, understanding your partners. And those also are so fluid and large, like spanning, like,
Dr. Lauren | Yeah
Robin | My motivator right now could be different today than tomorrow, or the next day. Right? Y
Dr. Lauren | Yeah.
Robin | But the key to wanting to come back to it over and over again, is satisfaction.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah. Yeah, right. The problem that I see happen a lot for partners, is if one partner, let's say in a couple because most of the folks I see are in couples, not always. But let's say in a dyad of two, if one partner has a really high motivation for sex is often interested has more spontaneous desire, the other one doesn't feel some of those things, and maybe has a different sort of interest. What happens for the you know, quote, unquote, lower libido partner. And I put that in quotes, because it's, it depends on what we're measuring that you know, based off of, but for the lower libido partner, what tends to happen in some partnerships is they'll start having sex for the other person's real pleasure and benefit. And in and of itself, that's not it's not a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with that. But if over time, that's really your only motivator is just to satisfy your partner. And there's nothing really that you're getting out of it that satisfying. It's not going to sustain you over a long term.
Robin | Well, you're just going to be I've heard this before, right? I've had friends say that, to me. It's like the only like, it's all for him. And it just get it over with and then well, wow, okay, if that is your sex life, that's pretty sad. But it's also like, how is like you said, it's just, that's not yours, that you're not satisfying yourself? Doing that other person?
Dr. Lauren | No. And again, sometimes, that's a perfect time.
Robin | Oh, yeah. Sometimes great.
Dr. Lauren | My, my partner wants to be close this way, and I'm up for it. Great. But if it's, if it's consistently that way, over time, it starts to become too one sided.
Robin | Right? Yeah. So let's talk about this the different types of desire, because this was a good a great learning. So the difference between spontaneous, right, yeah, and which is what we're seeing, tell us about spontaneous desire. And obviously, this is what we're, we're we grew up on, we grow, that we're still seeing it in the movies. And like you pointed out, it's like, these are new relationships often, right? It's like the hot and heavy and each other is what has sex.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah. Yeah, spontaneous desire, for many of us is the only desire we've ever seen depicted in the media. And it's the only type of desire that we know. And that's, I think, because I think the media plays a huge role in that, right, like with movies, and it's shows, it's showing you a snapshot of the getting to know you phase, the honeymoon phase, when things are, you know, hot and heavy and exciting. And spontaneous desire for sex is higher at that point. And so spontaneous desire is basically this sense of, you know, desire that just sort of emerges, be there rather quickly, or sort of out of the blue, where it's not something that you feel like you have to work at or conjure, but it sort of emerges. And Emily Nagurski has a great definition for this. It's desire that emerges in anticipation of pleasure. So it's the desire first, and then going to seek out something sexual Getting aroused going from there. So that's a bit about spontaneous desire, and it just totally valid way to have desire.
Robin | Right. But most of you say a lot of people and I don't know, what would you say about this, Lauren, would you say that most people have responsive desire or just okay, so let's talk about that. The other type of desire, which a lot of people have, which is misunderstood,
Dr. Lauren | Yes.
Robin | People don't even know this about themselves is that they may have responsive desire. Can you talk about that?
Dr. Lauren
Yes. So going back to Emily Nagurski, the author of the book Come As You Are, a fabulous book for those who haven't read it yet, she talks about responsive desire is desire that emerges in response to pleasure. So the pleasure is maybe already happening, the arousal is already on board, that desire kind of comes along the way. So it means that, you know, day to day, you might not have a sexual thought you might, it may never occur to you. But maybe let's say your partner comes over, it's a relatively good time, you're not in the middle of something, they start maybe, you know, touching or caressing, or you're lying in bed together, and you're talking, and suddenly something feels good, you have a little skin to skin contact, it's like, oh, this is kind of nice. And maybe I am a bit motivated to seek out more. So that's responsive desire. And there's different, there's different data on this. I think it's about 50-50 in the general population, because there's some suggestion that, you know, for women responsive desires, like 75% of women 25%, of men, that spontaneous is more than, you know, 75%. But there are some newer studies that suggest that across gender, any partner is sort of equally likely to be the higher or lower libido partner that it really isn't gender dependent. Right. And so I'm inclined to sort of extrapolate from that and say, it's about half and half. Yes, or so it seems.
Robin | So the one thing that I was really interested to read was that, you know, when people are coming to see you, as a sex therapist, they're coming in, and some of them a lot of them are saying, like, I feel like there's something wrong with me, I'm broken. Right?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah.
Robin | And they want to change themselves. So that they want that to be have spontaneous desire, because they think I like my partner is able to just get turned on and like want sex right away and can do it and be like, I'm into this, whereas I'm not I'm not that way. And that's what you're doing you're helping them understand their bodies and their and how they function which is innate, might they probably are responsive is that if that's the way their bodies are?
Dr. Lauren | More often than not, that's the case. And you know, what's the common scenario is the lower libido partner, reaching out seeking out services for sex therapy or support, seeing themselves as the problem and maybe even having their partner view it as such as well that the lower libido partner is the problem. And the goal is often whether it's you know, conscious or subconscious, the goal is often when they seek out services to make the lower libido partners desire match, the higher libido partner, we use the higher libido partner, then as a barometer for what's what's like, good, or what's sufficient or what's satisfying. And that really does a disservice to both. Yes, because what it's saying is, one person has the right amount of desire, and one person has the wrong amount of desire. When there's really no, there's no set point for how much desire you should have. The amount of desire, the amount of sex that you should be having is the one that's right, for everybody involved.
Robin | Absolutely. So you have there's four things like so if there was 50%, let's just say 50% of the population that has responsive desire, that's something that's very important for us to recognize. Right? I mean, would you say that, if like most people, when they're entering into a new relationship, you naturally would have more spontaneous desire, like the like, would that be true? Even though like over time, you might be more responsive?
Dr. Lauren | Yes, it's most often the case.
Robin | Right? And that's actually something to recognize because if your desire changes after you've been together for a year or two years, and now you're like thinking, Oh, I've got a low libido, but maybe that's not it. Right? Maybe you need the you the the, all the ingredients, or getting your body ready for that desire.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, yeah. What happens a lot is for people who have more of a responsive desire style, they will take on more of a spontaneous style. or it'll look more spontaneous at the beginning of a relationship. Yes, that's about trying to so you've got like maybe two or more people who are more spontaneous, and it looks that way, and it sort of adds up well, and then the person who's maybe style is more predominantly responsive. After the honeymoon period, the first six months to two years, it goes back to responsive, which is maybe where its setpoint is, and when we're not taught to expect that, and when we look at spontaneous as the measure of what's normal or okay, then the responsive desire is a. unsettling when that eventually happens, because you're not anticipating it, and it catches you off guard. But then b. the narrative that like, something's wrong, because you changed and it's not the way it used to be. It's very then easy to look to that person and say, something's off with you.
Robin | Yeah. Yeah. So how are you helping clients, with ways to get into a place where they are, there's a lot in the book, it's not just like, I know, it's just not one answer. But if you can help them recognize, okay, it sounds to me, like you've got spontaneous desire as your predominant desire. And it sounds to me like yours is responsive. How do you work with them to come to this place that lets you can work together? It's understanding, right?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, yeah, the first, the first part is putting names to that. And normalizing that, these are two equally valid ways to experience desire that one is not better than or worse than the other. And sometimes even just that information alone can help people feel more settled in their dynamic because there are so many times in which this more spontaneous leaning partner might take it personally, that the person who's more responsive is not demonstrating a more spontaneous style. And it can sort of touch on tender parts of us with a narrative that says you don't find me attractive anymore, you're not as interested in me, you don't want me. When they hear that there's a different style of desire and that it just has a different operating system that can really help to quiet and ease back some of those, you know, the narrative that the insecure feelings that come up along the way with Wait a minute, what happened?
Robin | Yes. So in the book, you talk about something that is called a sexual staircase. Can you just talk to us? What is the sexual staircase? And how you're, you know, you're helping coach people and couples around just like, we have to get off the sexual staircase. And, and it's an ingrained belief on how we are supposed to operate right in the bedroom when it comes to sex. So tell me what, tell us about that?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, yeah, it's, um, the concept of the staircase is just giving a visual image to what most sex therapists talk about is a typical sexual script. And a typical sexual script, again, you know, having some Hollywood influence or having, you know, sort of a dominant cultural narrative that sex when I say the word, sex, or like, go have sex, or we had sex, you have an image in your mind of what that means that it started here, that it progressed to there, and that it culminated in this. And the typical sort of landscape for that is something around like kissing, and then some touching. And then there's usually genitals and, you know, introduced and then, you know, maybe, or maybe not oral sex, it's tends to center penetration. And the end goal and the end point is orgasm. And that's a standard typical sexual script. And it's got a hierarchy, and it's got, you know, a very set sort of linear progression. And most people when I show them this image of a staircase with those, you know, elements on the step they go, oh, yeah, you know, that that sex that's familiar, right?
Robin | Yes.
Dr. Lauren | The challenge with the staircase is it tends to be you know, pretty fixed, in terms of like, this goes before this and this goes before that. It's got a hierarchical element to it that says that this counts is real sex and this counts as, you know, foreplay or doesn't count as sex. And it it shows preference to orgasms and penetratasion, so for folks, and there are many folks, where that's not the be all end all for them, or that's not their most pleasurable thing to do with a partner. It's basically got this sort of sense that that's, you know, deficient or there's something defective about that, like, you should be placing these things at the top of the staircase. And that's really what sexes is for and all about.
Robin | Right
Dr. Lauren | There are many people for whom the staircase works well. And that's okay. And that's just fine. But the more rigidly we adhere to one script for sex, the less sex we're likely to have over time.
Robin | Wow, so and that your book, you talk a lot about just, you're helping people do because I think, you know, there's, there's this whole section about understanding what gives you pleasure. And we may not even have really thought a lot about well, so there's body mapping under getting even getting to know your body and understanding your pleasure points. What makes pleasure, not just sexual, like,
Dr. Lauren | Right
Robin | The importance of pleasure and what that looks like for you and understanding that your partner,
Dr. Lauren | Right.
Robin | And this makes me think of a story that you tell around one couple. And I think it was Rivkah and Chame. I think.
Dr. Lauren | Hymn.
Robin | I’m sorry. I did not know how to pronounce that name.
Dr. Lauren | Perfect. That's okay. It's a Hebrew word.
Robin | Yes. Beautiful. Yeah. It's a beautiful pronunciation. And I don't know if this is a woman and a man?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah
Robin | Rivka wants to have sex once a week and penetrative sex. And I am once a month, and he wants his predominant pleasure of desire is oral sex.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah.
Robin | And it's like, so he was bending to her, and wanting Okay, so you want it once a week, and you want to have penetrative sex. So that's what we're doing. But they're coming to your office, and his desire is not being met. And the way that so that speaks to, first of all, like the frequency and the sexual staircase on like, actually, what and so and if and over time, you can see how this you can see how in a couple of dynamic this can happen in so many ways, with with many couples, it's like, if you bend to be to do what your partner wants all the time, and you're not getting what you want. That's it's just not at the satisfaction that you're not
Dr. Lauren | Interesting anymore. No,
Robin | Right? Yeah,
Dr. Lauren | We talked about like, just take it out of sex for a minute. We talk about like movies. You know, if every time you go to sit down for movie night, your partner's, like my choice, and my choices, you know, maybe sometimes it's good for you. But maybe sometimes it's stuff that you would just not prefer. Or even sometimes, you know, something that you would really not choose to engage in at all. And if every time is like movie night means you choose the movie, I never get to choose the movie. I don't get to experience what it's like to choose the movie and do you know, watch something that really is enjoyable for m,e, how long before you opt out a movie night?
Robin | Right, right. Oh my gosh, I really liked that. I like the comparison. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.
Dr. Lauren | It makes sense then that the person who's like I don't like movies, and then dig into it.
Robin | I just don't like movies. Because, right? And then it turns into this whole thing. I don't like movies. I don't like to have sex, I don't to?
Dr. Lauren | Do you not like movies? Or do you not like, or prefer certain genres? Or maybe, you know, sitting down and watching a two hour movie from start to finish is too much. Maybe we watch it in phases. Maybe not. Everything doesn't have to be this sort of all or none. So when we start to tease out and dig into, like, Do you really not like movies? And some people will say yeah, and we'll tease it out. And they'll say, Yeah, I'm not into movies. And that that's fine. Yes, more often than not, it's I don't like the way that I have experienced movies.
Robin | Right? So if you have, there's prompts in here to look at what is it? Like what are your sexual desires? What are your fantasies? How, what is it that gives you the greatest pleasure? And there is an invitation obviously, to share this if you're with a partner with somebody with your partner. And you have this concept called Don't Yuck, your don't yuck someone's yum. Yeah. So yeah. Can you talk to us about that?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, I wish we could take ownership for that language. I like it. None of us know, I don't know if anyone knows where it originates. But it's it's a saying in the sexual health community that we don't yuk someone's yum. And what that means is that we really want to create a safe space for people to say what they like, without demeaning that, and without judging that, because somebody could like something, let's say your partner shares a fantasy or something that they would be interested in doing. We can hold space for two things. One, I'm not willing or interested in doing that with you. But I can I accept and hear about that interest, I can just know that that's something that would be interesting to you. And I can validate that and just say, I hear you, it sounds like that would be really appealing to you, and I get it. So, you know, we want to be really tender about that, because something that can happen unintentionally, is if we have a sort of ick reaction, when a partner is sharing something vulnerable, particularly around a sexual interest or preference or fantasy. Sometimes the experience of feeling judged around that can generalize out. And so I've seen just one or two comments made between partners, years and decades ago, that have lasted for years and decades, because it, the sting of that was so strong in the moment, the feeling of, you know, shame or judgment. And sometimes people have a hard time getting over it. And so we just want to be mindful of how we talk about these things. Because sharing a desire of fantasy and interest. It's vulnerable, and it's tender.
Robin | Absolutely. You know, when you've got, there's such a great section in your book that goes through different individual ways that we are affected, our sexual lives are affected. You talk about stress, you talk about shame, trauma. And then we just go through a few things like this, Lauren,
Dr. Lauren | Certainly
Robin | How, how stress, obviously has a huge impact on your desire. Yeah, right. Yeah. And why and why is that?
Dr. Lauren | Stress can have, you know, an effect on people differently. It's really interesting, actually, because there was a time, I might have believed early on in my career, that stress impacted people negatively in terms of their sexual desire, or sexual, you know, makeup. And, you know, over the years, and with a better understanding of our nervous systems, and the differences between us and how things work, there's so much individual variation. And it's interesting that stress for some people completely depletes any interest in sex, it's the last thing on their mind, and they're unwilling to engage. And that's, that's fair, you know, that some people are just like, I can't get in this headspace, I can't think about it. You know, it really hits the brakes for me. And so, you know, we really need to honor that. You know, for some folks, there's just certain times where it's just it's a non starter. And part of that can be because their mind is really distracted thinking about a zillion other things. And so it's really hard to be present for intimate connection, or to even really receive the pleasure in the moment if your mind is, you know, everywhere else. For some people, it's their body is going into a stress response. And so they feel more like shut down and numb, and just not as open to, you know, sexual contact and needing to be sort of protective. And maybe it's seeking more solitude or alone time to sort of recalibrate and regulate. There are other folks for whom stress revs on the gas pedal towards sex, that they're so much more interested in seeking out sex. And for those people, it's often because sex can be regulating in and of itself, that they can go
Robin | Release?
Dr. Lauren | It's a release, it can, you know, you can feel numb, and then with sacks and physical contact, it can help sort of animate your system get you back into, you know, a baseline that you can work with. And so, it's really just individual differences, and it's hard to sort of know, you know, is there a particular rhyme or reason why for one person, it's motivating and for one person, it's the opposite. I don't know that we have any answer to that,
Robin | Right.
Dr. Lauren | But it's important to know which one might be more true for you.
Robin | Yes. So there is a big piece about shame, and how, like you just talked about right there, like shame can obviously affect your sex life so much like, for instance, you're sharing with your partner, and you feel so shamed by sharing your fantasy. And that can you can carry that for years, right?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, yeah.
Robin | And you do share a story about a client who your work who you had worked with, who when she was growing up, he was told and within her culture, I think it was her mom or grandma, I can't remember I said to her, you know, sex is not pleasurable, like as a woman. That's not why we have sex.
Dr. Lauren | Right
Robin | You know, it's, it's for you, this body is just for procreation, your body is just for procreation. You're not supposed to have sex is not what women are. It's like, against your, yourself, your body. Right?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah.
Robin | And so she didn't really understand that until she was with a partner, and kept turning away from him when he was wanting to enjoy sex. And
Dr. Lauren | Yeah
Robin | That was a great learning for her. But like, wow, I could see that, how if you grew up thinking those things,
Dr. Lauren | That the imprint of some of those early messages can just, you know, stay with us for such a long time. And unfortunately, sometimes in especially our younger formative years, those messages can be, you know, they can run so deep, that it can take sometimes a real sort of intentional process to unlearn something that's no longer serving us or even harming us. And so, unpacking sexual shame is often a process that takes some time. And that takes connection community, it's it's hard to chip away at sexual shame by yourself, it helps to have you know, a partner, or a therapist or podcasts to listen to that just you hear other humans talking about it in a really different way than how it was maybe introduced to you at a younger age.
Robin | Right. So that when you do encounter that or even just people like I'd be interested to learn, are you having this, you must be having discussions, because you talk about in the book about pleasure. During your office? Are you talking, are you actually talking to people about just understanding that, do people, do people have shame around pleasure? That's one question I have because I like I'm not one of those people. But I do think that it's like this thing in our society that is underrated.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, yeah.
Robin | Not, yeah. Great. Yeah. Pleasure, sorry. Well, the importance of pleasure.
Dr. Lauren | It's seen as unproductive by some people, it's seen as something you have to earn, it's seen as something that is inappropriate for some people, depending on the culture you grew up in. There's also other systems at play that diminish our, our sense of pleasure, our relationship to pleasure. So you've got things like sexual shame around sexual pleasure, specifically, you've got diet culture that says, don't eat too much of this or that, which usually the things they're saying, don't eat too much tastes really good and are pleasurable.
Robin | Yes.
Dr. Lauren | You've got a hustle culture that says, work hard, play hard, but the emphasis is more, at least, you know, in the world, we see more of the work hard side and not as much as the play hard side and
Robin | As much as the fun. Yeah, right. Right.
Dr. Lauren | Right. So yeah, people can struggle with just general concept of pleasure, because I don't think we get a lot of permission culturally, societally to just, you know, find that enjoy that savor that explore that.
Robin | Yep. So there in the book, on page, I put I, I've got this book is full of dog ears. So I wanted to just talk about the ways that you're helping people navigate their differences in desire and getting the spark back and right. One of the things that I really liked your concept around intimacy dates, rather than we've all a lot of us have heard of scheduling sex and how I believe that, you know, prioritizing your sex life is very important in a relationship. So booking it in your calendar. I think it's a great idea. But you took it you take it further into something called intimacy dates. I thought this was great. So can you talk to us about that?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, absolutely. You know, you hear this concept. I mean, people don't love or I'll say many people, I get a lot of pushback around scheduling sex. Because the setpoint is spontaneity, right? Spontaneous sex shouldn't have to be planned. And
Robin | That actually goes back to what we were just talking about, right, like that is I'm learning that.
Dr. Lauren | That's right.
Robin | Because if your partner is more responsive, you actually probably do have to plan it.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because what happens is, is if, you know, the most common dynamic is that one partner leans more spontaneous, and one partner leans more responsive, and they get together as, as do most partnerships that have some of these differences that kind of balance each other out in some ways. So for the spontaneous desire, you know, style, why would you need to play in that, you know, they don't need to plan it, it's just, it occurs to me, and then I seek you out, and we do that. But for folks who have more predominant responsive styles, that doesn't always work. And that might lead to a really challenging dynamic, where the person who has more spontaneous desire is trying to initiate sex. And the more responsive person is saying no, is saying no, is saying, because it's not a great time, because there's a lot of things that are hitting their brakes that are, you know, just making it hard for them to be, you know, present and available. So, you know, when you plan something, not only does that help, you know, speak to someone with more responsive desire. But it also helps to kind of move some things around, like, let's say, you have a lot of things on your mind a to do list, you have certain preferences for your environment, we can actually do a little bit of navigating and pre planning so that we can set things up. So, you know, maybe we take a couple of things off the to do list, or maybe we set up a less cluttered environment, or you take a shower, you know, not too long before whatever it is that you need to feel more present and you know, ready. But you know, most people have heard about sex dates. And what they mean by that is, let's make time and hop on the staircase, like let's go through, the ba ba ba ba steps. And for some people, that works great, and I want to knock that if that works for you, that's great. I never see those people in my office, they're not in my office, because that's working for them. And, you know, kudos, that's great. But there's a lot of reasons why that doesn't work. And part of what doesn't work is that for the person who may not have their sort of own motivator for sex, where maybe they're doing that more to pleasure a partner. What can happen for that person who tends to be often a more responsive desire type of style, is they start having negative anticipation of the date, they start feeling pressure about that, and the other person, the more spontaneous styles like, I need to have sex. It's exciting. There's in anticipation that's positive. But for the other partner, it's maybe more negative anticipation. There's this buildup of pressure, anxiety stress, that I have to show up on this day and this time, and have my game face on. Right. And that ends up shutting things down. doesn't work well.
Robin | No. And so I liked your ideas. So the intimacy date, it's, it's your opportunity to come together and share intimacy and intimacy is such a big, it's an all-encompassing, it's not just sex
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, yeah.
Robin | So you know, you've got your love the date, menu, intimacy, date menu. So there's just two pages of ideas around here. I'll just say a few. So just kissing, making out, right?
Dr. Lauren | Yeah.
Robin | Full body massage. Why not? Foot massage, back massage. Spooning, cuddling. Obviously, you could have sex, and all of its many of its forms.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah.
Robin | Watching an erotic romantic video together. There's just there's a lot of different ideas here. And I just, it's about coming together and sharing an intimate moment.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, when you can see it, as you know, all of these different options. That tends to help because I liken it to you know, you make a reservation at a restaurant, and you show up, but you don't preorder your meal yet because you don't know how you're going to feel when you sit down at the table at that specific,
Robin | Menu? What would you like to do today, sweetheart?
Dr. Lauren | Exactly. Yes, exactly.
Robin | I like that.
Dr. Lauren | Because essentially what you're saying to people, you know, when you say schedule sex, at least for some people is you're gonna have. And I don't mean it to say that, you know, sex is a three-course meal specifically. And these other things are just appetizers. But if you go with the metaphor for a moment, that it's like saying, you know, you're going to sit down and have this very specific thing. And imagine if you ordered the same meal every time and it was the same weight, no matter how hungry you are, no matter what kind of day you had, no matter, you know, what the weather is, like, no matter the climate of the relationship. And you might be somebody who I am somebody who literally, like, I could eat the same thing all the time, it'd be just very fine with that. But you might be partnered with somebody who says, but I'm not, you know, I need to be able to kind of gauge how I feel how hungry I am, what I feel like, and maybe most of the time, I order the same thing. But once in a while, it's nice to, you know, take a peek around and see what the daily specialists that you know, just kind of do something a little different. So even if you know the staircase works for you, or works for one of you, the majority of the time, you're going to be more likely to have a ritual around intimacy, if you broaden and expand what's available, because think about it this way. Let's say you sit down at the restaurant and one partner says, I'm not hungry at all. Does that mean that we just leave? And the person who's sitting down
Robin | There says it's like I'm hungry? Right? Right, right. I'm gonna spend this time it doesn't mean.
Dr. Lauren | That's right. That's right. What it doesn't mean though, is I have to shove food down my face and force feed myself food,
Robin | Right.
Dr. Lauren | What it does maybe look like is something maybe I'll just have a little nibble on an appetizer. Maybe I'm just gonna sip on some water and keep you company. Maybe, you know, I'm not hungry when I got here. But then as I sit here for a while that I get hungry.
Robin | Yes.
Dr. Lauren | So it's saying there's all these possibilities. And so it's getting creative. You know, one person wants more of a sexual experience, the other person is maybe not there. There are multiple options for how to navigate that. And it goes beyond just that staircase.
Robin | I really like that. You also have something which I thought was so valuable, if you are in a partnership called State of the Union. And this is if sorry, sexual State of the Union. So this is when you are having regular conversations, meetings to talk about your sex life.
Dr. Lauren | Yeah. Yeah.
Robin | You know, it wasn't until I met my husband, that I started really talking about sex with a partner, like just what we both liked, and what oh, wait. And he's like educating me because I'm like, oh, I didn't know that didn't know that. We're like, going to sex shows. I'm like, whoa, never seen that before. Like a little kid in a candy store, like what the heck is going on here. But it was very educational. And I just really appreciated the fact that he was so open, and just then I felt like, Oh, I could talk about this. So I just think talking about it is so important that I think many of us just we talked that's how we started our conversation. Right? Lauren, was just saying how people aren't talking about it.
Dr. Lauren | Right. Right. And then you've got sort of this duality, because there's a lot of sexuality that can be embedded in our media. And at the same time, we're not talking about it openly. We're not experiencing, you know, very comprehensive sex education. So you've got this sort of both, and that there's not a lot of open dialogue about what to expect and what's realistic. And you just get the Hollywood version. I can't remember who it is. I think it's Dr. Laurie Mintz, or Dr. Laurie Bravo that one of my colleagues that I can attribute this to, but it's like learning to drive by watching Fast and the Furious movies. Yeah. Like you're in a nonsexual sphere, that doesn't make any sense. But sometimes in a sexual sphere, because we don't see maybe, you know, depictions outside of, you know, the media, because maybe we're not having some of those conversations at home. That becomes the sort of standard with which we're trying to meet. And it's just not realistic.
Robin | Well, I hope that well, my hope is that so many people listen to this episode, and they read your book, and learn more, so that we can have a more more pleasurable sex life. I mean, I think we all want that. And, and I think you're really helping people with that. So thank you for all the work that you're doing.
Dr. Lauren | Thank you so much. I really appreciate it
Robin | I'm going to close our, I'm going to close a bit of blessing with your words. May we be more flexible, adaptable, open minded, playful and curious when it comes to ours and our partner's sexual selves. And may we honor our innate desire and prioritize pleasure in our lives. So thank you Dr. Lauren.
Robin | Please visit realloveready.com To become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com. We read everything you sent. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, and stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening. Take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.
Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey