Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode 109 with Dr. MaryCatherine McDonald | Transcript
10.07.25
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Robin Ducharme | Welcome to Let's Talk Love, the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas and expert insights. Every week, our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships, and they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate, we tackle the big questions, not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host Robin Ducharme, now Let's Talk Love. Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Love today, I'm joined by MC McDonald, Dr McDonald, I love seeing you. Mary Catherine
Dr. MaryCatherine McDonald l Oh thank you.
Robin Ducharme | Thank you for joining us again
Dr. MaryCatherine McDonald l Oh my gosh, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me back. I was thrilled.
Robin Ducharme | The last time I saw you, you were teaching, I'm taking your writing course, and you were teaching one of the weeks
Dr. MaryCatherine McDonald l Yes
Robin | Because you are a seasoned author, and today we are going to be talking about your newest book, The Joy reset, right.
Dr. McDonald l Thank you.
Robin | I loved it. MC,
Dr. McDonald l Oh, thank you. Isn't the cover amazing? I love the cover.
Robin | The cover is, how was th, tell me how this cover was inspired? It is perfect.
Dr. McDonald l It's the amazing creative team at Hachette. They, they just pitched it. That was, like, the first book cover pitch. And I was like, let's do it. Perfect.
Robin | I love it. You know what it reminds me of, It's like, you know what I am okay, you say this. I've heard you say this before, but it's like, you know if somebody says I'm not an artist, I'm terrible. Actually, I think it's in the book.
Dr. McDonald l Yes
Robin | I am that person that says that because, like, if somebody says draw something, I'm like, I'm but guess what? This is how, if somebody says color or draw something, this is what I would do. I would just grab all my little crayons, my and I would just, like, blend the colors and make it pretty.
Dr. McDonald l I love it. It looks like jelly beans to me. That's the other thing.
Robin | Jelly Beans. Yeah.
Dr. McDonald l Yep.
Robin | So MC, you are a research professor and life coach who specializes in the psychology and philosophy of trauma. Your work focuses on thinking critically about how we understand, define and heal from traumatic experiences. And this book, at first glance, I mean, it's called The Joy Reset. And then the subtitle is Six Ways Trauma Steals Happiness and How to Win it Back. And what I so appreciated about your book and about the whole like just how you narrate, I listen to it and I read, that's my favorite thing to do. So thank you for being the voice of your own book, because you share the stories and and there's you say this throughout the book. It's like there's a lot of darkness. This is a dark book about joy. And really, you think, what? How is that even? But I think what I've come to understand, absolutely, in the past, I would say, decade of my life and living it, is that, you know as human beings, like we're so multifaceted, and we have like without knowing it, we just have this amazing ability to hold many things at once.
Dr. McDonald l Oh yeah
Robin | And I think that's what you're because I think our brains and our understanding of our emotions is so limited we need to understand better that you can have you could be absolutely devastated into the darkest place, but also find joy, hope, reverence and how important it is
Dr. McDonald l Yeah, yeah.
Robin | We can learn to do this right, and we can, and that's what your book is really helping us understand what can take, what really does take away our joy, the thieves.
Dr. McDonald l Yes
Robin | Talk about the thieves of joy, so that we can bring more, because we can rewire our brains to be more joy, focused, hope focused, and bringing more awe reverence into our lives, so that we can live through the darkness.
Dr. McDonald l Yes, exactly, that we can survive it. I think that, like it's interesting, I tell there's a there's a whole chapter in the book about my friend Chris, and he called me one day, and I picked up the phone and he said, how's the book going? And I said, you know, well, it's, it's quite dark. He this sounds like sarcastic, but he didn't mean it sarcastically. He's like, well, did you mean to write a dark book about joy?
Robin | About joy
Dr. McDonald l And I said, you know, no, but I wanted to write a true book about joy. And I thhink we get joy wrong when we think that it only exists in these easy, breezy moments when nothing else is going on. Joy is there with you, right there in the dark. And I think if we can see that and understand it and redefine joy in the way that it actually appears, then we can capitalize on it when we need it. Then we can learn to see it instead of just miss it. And that's, you know, that's part of how we rewire our brains to notice it and bring it in and grab hold of it when we need it the most as an anchor,
Robin | Yes, there were so many reminders in this book, and it's um, last week I interviewed Dr Sue Varma about practical optimism. And this week we're talking about joy in like, through the darkness, and how important this is, like MC, you know, we, any of us right now in this world, can look around, go on the news, just, you know, just think about our culture, all the things, and just pull in, like, how much, how much bad there is in the world, and how much, like uncertainty, and it's, it's freaking scary, right?
Dr. McDonald l It's scary. Yeah
Robin | It is so and I don't you know is the world, you know, we can go down that, but it means this is why I think it's so important that we have these tools. And I think that was, this is what your book is offering us is ways that, like, can you explain just how it is that we can really this is, this is actually neuroscience.
Dr. McDonald l Yes.
Robin | This is about changing our brain chemistry. It's our building our muscle in our brains, right, to look and seek and wait for more joy and hope, right?
Dr. McDonald l Yes, oh my gosh, yeah. So there's a lot of neuroscience here. So I can start with the hope circuit and the fear circuit
Robin | Hope Circuit and fear circuit.
Dr. McDonald l And the so the idea is that, you know, we know the fear circuit very well because we're living in it, you know, all the time, right now, right as you mentioned, you can't go to the store, you can't leave your house, you can't open your device without getting some really terrifying bad news. And so what that means is that our fear circuit is active all the time. The mind and the body are connected. The brain and the body are connected. And so when your fear circuit is operating, your body thinks it's in danger and is sending stress signals and stress hormones through your body to cope. And so we are psychologically and physiologically stressed all the time right now. And we think, I mean, a lot of the world is, of course, out of our control. And we think, then if we're living through a stressful time, then that's just it. That's all we have on offer, is more and more stress psychologically in our thoughts and physiologically. But the truth is that there is a counter posed circuit in the brain called the hope circuit. And when I say counter posed, I mean these two circuits cannot be on at the same time, and we know this from the experience of fear, right. When you're in fear mode, you're not in a hopeful place, you're not planning your next vacation, you're not thinking about hoping that your relationship works in the next five years, you are just in survival mode when we intentionally switch on the hope circuit, we, by definition, turn off the fear circuit. And so knowing even just that tiny little bit of neurobiology gives us a whole set of tools to rewire our brain and also reduce the stress in our brains and in our bodies. So if we can commit to little practices that engage the hope circuit, one example that I do every day right now is tiny little joys
Robin | Tiny little joys
Dr. McDonald l Which I can explain in a second, even just spending seven to 10 seconds focused on something joyful, is enough to turn on the fear circuit, set some neural pathways toward positivity and away from stress and anxiety, and that can give your brain and your body a break. So even when we're living in a hopeless time, it's not hopeless for us, if that makes sense. Neurobiologically.
Robin | Something that I was being reminded of is I'm listening to Martha Beck's book called Beyond Anxietyand it's the same thing.
Dr. McDonald l I know it. I know it
Robin | She says, like, our fear is counter opposed to, sorry, anxiety and creativity.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | So it's the same thing, right? And I, you know, I was talking to one of my dearest friends who's also helping me edit my book, and I was telling her, like, like, I want to write this book, but I have no creativity. Like, I don't have an imagination. I am so in my situation right now, and it was, like, a very traumatic divorce, and I'm like, what do I do? Like, I feel like, I'm like, I've got a lot of people that I'm that have work for me and a lot of responsibility, and I'm driving this big tanker, like, that's, I'm envisioning this tanker that's like, on an ocean in the dark. And I'm like, I am I'm at the helm, but I can't see where the hell I'm going. And it's like, it's terrifying
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | And you know what she says? She's like, Robin, anchor down, anchor down.
Dr. McDonald l I love it
Robin | Oh, that's brilliant. I never thought of anchoring down. I'm just trying to navigate in the dark.
Dr. McDonald l Right. And this is the, this is why this is a perfect metaphor. So think about like an anchor, right. You have this whole like, huge tanker, this huge ship, and it feels like it's unstoppable. You couldn't stop it, you couldn't turn it around. But think about like the physicality of an anchor. An anchor is a tiny thing in comparison to the boat.
Robin | Right.
Dr. McDonald l It's a tiny little thing, but commit to dropping it and it lands, it holds the whole thing.
Robin | Right.
Dr. McDonald l And that's the it's funny, because that's actually the metaphor that this book was kind of born on, because that I said something about that at the very end of unbroken, which is the book that got published before this one, at the very end in the Epilog about how, you know, we get the calculus wrong. We think that we need a huge joy if you're going through a hugely traumatic divorce,
Robin | No
Dr. McDonald l You huge, big joy in order to anchor yourself. But then if you think about the metaphor of an anchor, you don't, and it's true, these tiny little joys do become anchoring things. I love that advice, anchor down.
Robin | And you know what I did? Mc is I did anchor down. And I was like, okay, this is what I need to do right now. I need to just stop worrying about not being creative and like all the I like and not like, focusing on just staying put, like sometimes you just don't have to do don't go forward, don't go back. Just stay where you are. And in time, you know what, the light did come, and I was able. I'm very I would say nav my navigation is towards joy, is towards finding positivity is towards it really is,
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | Sometimes you're just, you're in it. You just have to be in it.
Dr. McDonald l Right. And that's, I think, another huge point that I wanted to make sure it came out in this book, is that sometimes your job actually isn't finding joy, sometimes your job isn't having hope, sometimes your job is just holding on
Robin | Right
Dr. McDonald l And that's .okay. We tell people like, do you can't give up hope. You actually you can. And that's, it's an awful moment to be in, but you're not failing if you're giving up hope, and it will find you.
Robin | Yeah. So I really liked the idea of you give ways like, I think we we also misunderstand what joy is. We think it has to be like, you know, falling down on the ground, laughing so hard that you can't, you can't, you know, whatever, like, okay, that is really awesome. Like, I don't know why that happens, but, like, not very much.
Dr. McDonald l Right
Robin | Like, you know, you think about, like, I think about, like, my daughter walking across stage, when she graduated, like, just so full of like, like, just so much full of joy, but that, okay, those are, like, the big, big things that you can imagine. But what you're helping us see is like, joy can come in other ways. Can we talk about that I'm seeing, like, contentment, for instance, right.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah, I think there's a section in the book where I talk about how, like, joy isn't always dressed up in, you know, a gown and sparkles. Sometimes joy is dressed up in sweat pants. Sometimes joy is snuggling on the couch on a Friday night and watching a movie. Sometimes joy is getting in your car after being in a cold restaurant, and it's nice and warm like, you know. Sometimes it's great message from a friend or a meme or a puppy that you saw on Instagram, or the way the light is filtering in. And this, you know, it's interesting, because I've been doing so tiny little joys is a practice that I started in 2020, in the absolute midst of the my own personal darkness, and also darkness in the world obviously, basically, the trick is just that you notice something that gives you joy. You search something. It could be your immediate environment. It could be the last couple of hours. It could hours. It could be the last week. What is something that gave you just a tiny blast of joy? And I've been, I committed this year to doing it every single day on social media, so I'm doing it on Tiktok and Instagram. And this has been a really, really weird, hard year. There have been I've had a lot of like, unexpected, strange, difficult things happen, but I committed to doing this every single day on social media, so I have to do it every single day, and I'm getting a firsthand account. I already knew this, but I didn't know it as deeply that, like this is incredibly grounding. It is incredibly grounding to stop for 10 seconds and just notice something that gives you joy, even if you're having a terrible, awful day, you know, because
Robin | Yes
Dr. McDonald l It doesn't negate that stuff that's happening. It's not meant to joy. Doesn't cancel out pain or sadness or problems, but the fact that it sits next to it is profound. And I don't think that's something we notice.
Robin | Yes, and you say it's beyond, this is beyond what has become like a my you know, gratitude practice, right. Okay, in the morning, you're gonna wake up and write your five things you're grateful for, and right before bed, you're gonna write your grateful list. How is the tiny little joys practice different than what I think has been over people aren't like you could write your list, but then are you really seeing the joy amongst the pain that you're in or right?
Dr. McDonald l Right
Robin | Throughout your day
Dr. McDonald l There's a couple differences. So it sounds like a really similar exercise. I think I personally have never loved gratitude list. It always felt like another thing on my to do list, you know. And I don't know if that's just the way that it got sort of packaged and took off in the world. Gratitude is kind of a heavy word, right. Like, there's a moral aspect to what I'm grateful for that makes it, I think, a little bit more complicated as an emotion. And I think a lot of times, when we sit down and we make a gratitude list, there's like, the list we're making, and then there's a silent statement in the list, and the list is like, I'm grateful for my house, I'm grateful for my friends, I'm grateful for the food that I ate today. I'm grateful for this wonderful conversation I had with Robin. And what I the hidden message is, should feel good about these things. I should be grateful for these things.
Robin | Right. It's like, Look at, look at how, look at how good I have it.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah.
Robin | You know, like, right.
Dr. McDonald l Joy is a little more simple. Joy is, like, I don't have to justify it. I don't have to explain it. And it can be weird. I don't it's not about how I'm trying to get myself to feel. It's how I'm feeling right now without trying. And so.
Robin | Yes, oh, I love that to okay, MC, you give this example, and I have I could relate to this. Okay you talk about when you're at your dad's funeral
Dr. McDonald l Yes.
Robin | And you know, one of the thieves of joy is guilt.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah.
Robin | And, of course, beyond that, it's shame. But I think a lot of us can relate to this. It's like we've lost somebody we love so profoundly and so deeply, and you're feeling guilty for laughing or just feeling any sort of happiness.
Dr. McDonald l Yep
Robin | And you, I love the story you tell. You're like, sitting in the front pew at the church St Mary's, and there the nativity scene was like, right and end of Christmas, after Christmas, and it's like this, they had installed the fake camel, like the lifestyle. And it's like, you know, a part of Jesus story, and it was so freaking hilarious and ridiculous. Like, how could you not laugh?
Dr. McDonald l Right
Robin | Because you're like, I'm sitting in front of a camel, a fake camel into my dad's funeral. It's like, it's hilarious. Like, you everybody's gonna find that funny, but you're thinking, I can't laugh right now,
Dr. McDonald l Right
Robin | This is totally inappropriate, and I'm not allowed to feel joy on the saddest, one of the saddest days of my life.
Dr. McDonald l Right. And what we miss when we go to that guilt is the mercy of that.
Robin | Yeah, can you, can you talk about that like, I'm just how your how, mercy, like, what, like.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you know, for for a little background, my dad, for some reason, thought that. So he died in 2005 so we have to kind of go back in time, technologically and also in terms of what's
Robin | Totally
Dr. McDonald l He thought that like animatronic animals and like making animals, like cartoon animals talk on TV, was like the funniest thing in the world. He thought. He just thought that was absolutely hilarious. And so, you know, he died really suddenly. He didn't have a long illness, and he died on Christmas Day. So we're just really packing this thing in with tragedy. Wow, yeah. And so it's December 28 and we're at, you know, my childhood church, and I'm walking down the aisle, and I'm 24 and I'm like, Well, I guess my father's not going to walk me down the aisle because I'm walking him down, right? And that's so sad, I know, right? And it was just like, so much sadness, you're almost drowning in it. And I couldn't look up because I just was. I could barely even stand. And so I was looking at the ground and just taking one step after the other, until we got to the front of the church. And then I am face to face with a giant plastic camel that's painted so it's like, got lipstick on, basically, yeah, which my father would have thought was the funniest thing in the world, like he would have had to leave church if we were just going for like, a Sunday Mass, you know. So there's, like, a lot of you know, serendipity in that. And totally it's this awful moment, and that, that laughter, that moment of absurdity, was such a break, you know. And it was like you're laughing in this moment of really unspeakable awfulness, and in comes joy, you know. And just like jabs you in the ribs, like here, you know, look at this ridiculous thing. And so there's mercy. That was a break that was like taking a deep breath and all that tragedy. Finally, we have laughter. Still, there is funny things, and in a way, like my dad is still here, right? Like all of these things. But if I turn immediately to guilt, which I did, right? Because that you know, you're you're kind of on display, you're in the church, you're supposed to, there's decorum. You're supposed to act in a certain way. If I, if I turn to that judgment and guilt, the joy just gets swept right out from under me, and I'm back to the darkness. What harm would it have been to laugh for 10 more seconds? You know, I'm not feel the guilt, but just kind of go back gently to the sadness of the day. Yeah,
Robin | I both my dad and my twin passed away very suddenly within two years of each other, and at both of their funerals, it was like there was a lot of laughter, right? Like, and they were both very funny, very light, like, just bright lights in this world. And so it's not surprising that everybody you know was telling stories, and all of that was bringing so much laughter and joy. And I just thought, thank goodness, you know, like, I want to hear that. I want to be in the joy right now. I know this is devastating for all of us, but we just want to be there and right? It's okay, yeah, it's more than okay, right?
Dr. McDonald l The joy isn't going to take away the devastation. It's not a betrayal of the person that you just lost. It's, it's like a and this, I think, is a message we need to take away right now, because I'm seeing guilt a lot, because the world is so dark, and so anytime anyone feels joy, they feel guilty for it, even if they're not in like, one of these situations like we're describing. And I think we need to kind of check ourselves with that, because of what we're saying. Right? You said it's a. Break. You get a moment. It's like, you know, and we need that break in order to sustain through the Marathon of grief,
Robin | Right. Okay, so when you're seeing you're seeing this right now, you're saying there's a lot of guilt with with what's going on, and people feeling guilt with what's going on the world. So how are you helping people reframe that?
Dr. McDonald l It's coming up so much more than I could have anticipated. Because, you know, when you write a book, you don't like, you don't know what the world is going to look like when it comes out, you know, right? So I didn't know things were going to be this dark. This was all written pre election and pre, you know, all this stuff.
Robin | Yeah, still coming. Yeah.
Dr. McDonald l Every day I just, like, so many things just flash in front of my eyes, like all the list of, you know, God, awful things that have been happening and what. So what I'm seeing is kind of interesting. It used to kind of be restricted to situations like you and I are describing, where you're in a grief moment and you're starting to feel happiness again, and then you feel like that's a betrayal of the person who passed away, or it's a betrayal of your family members who aren't doing as well, or whatever. But right now, people will say, even in a private session, they'll say, I got promoted, and they're whispering, you know, I got a promotion, and I'm excited, and it means my finances are going to be okay for the rest of the year. But like, my sister just got laid off, and my partner got their grant funding pulled, and like, I can't I feel really guilty for having a win. And so sometimes it's like someone in your life is not doing okay, and so you feel guilty for the things that are going well for you. Or I just got into a relationship, but this person just got divorced, and I don't feel like I can flaunt it in front of them and, you know, or it's like, I, how can I I live in a privileged life, and I'm having a great day and I'm leaning into joy, how can I do that in good conscience, knowing what's going on in Gaza, or, you know, anywhere else, Pick your you know, area of current tragedy, and I understand that. I think that guilt is an important messenger in many ways, but sometimes it's like sending the message at the wrong time. And I think what I'm trying to remind people is that every moment that you spend in joy, you are contributing to the collective calm. Because we're not just individual nervous systems, we are also a collective nervous system. And so when you are regulating yourself, by definition, you're contributing to collective regulation. When you're dysregulated, you're contributing to dysregulation.
Robin | Wow
Dr. McDonald l And so it's, you know, it's a, it's a tool. It's a it's a rebellious tool, and we need it in order to sustain through this difficult time. It's not something we should or need to feel guilty about.
Robin | Wow. I just really I appreciate that joy is a rebellious tool, and the more that we are in that place, it's like we're adding to the collective calm absolutely, yeah, so you say joy resistance happens when trauma whispers in our ear that these happier emotions are so ridiculous that they're probably not even real. Like, it's like, you, it's like, so joy resistant. It's like we're resisting. So there's the thieves. Can you talk about the thieves MC?
Dr. McDonald l Yes, so the thieves of joy. So, you know, I was, I gave a workshop yesterday, and I the first, like, 20 minutes. I'm like, Look at what joy does to the nervous system, and look at what it does to the body, and look at how it can heal communities and all this stuff. And then I kind of stopped, and I was like, you know, I feel like I'm giving, like, a it's like, the, you know, infomercial for joy
Robin | Yeah. And I would, I would be good at that. I really, we should go on. I like talking about joy
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | There are thieves
Dr. McDonald l Yes. And so then the next question is like, okay, if joy is so great, why aren't we all just leaning into it all the time? And it's because we have these joy thieves. And the joy thieves are well honed adaptations that come from trauma and are trying to protect us from pain. So hyper vigilance is one of the joy thieves. And the idea is that you've learned through experience that you have to be prepared for any outcome at any moment. And so the only way to be in the world is to be hyper vigilant. 24/7 and joy is going to come in and tap on your shoulder, and the hyper vigilance is going to be like, no, no, no. We don't have time for this right now. We don't have space for this. We don't have the luxury of leaning into humor. We are on watch. And so the trick with joy, and I think the reason that it turned out being sort of a dark book about joy, is that we have to get to know the thieves. We need to understand when and why they show up, which, again, is usually in response to trauma. And then we have to figure out how to outsmart them.
Robin | So one of the one of the other joy thieves is emotional numbing,
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | Which, you know, we all do it in some one one, I mean, yeah, right
Dr. McDonald l Yeah.
Robin | Whether it's like laying like, you're just like, I'm not doing this. I don't want to think about I'm just gonna, like, chill with Netflix for five hours. Flicks and numb.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | I mean, alcohol, yep, ice cream, the whole thing,
Dr. McDonald l Oh, my God
Robin | You know, there's just, there's, there's a lot that we could do to emotionally numb. But one of the, you know, yes, one of the lessons here is, like, sometimes, you know, I love this, so John Kim is just like, sometimes you just need to numb.
Dr. McDonald l Like, oh yeah
Robin | You don't stay in the numbing. But that's the thing, is that give yourself some grace. You could be in the numbing for a bit, but, like, it's when you are prolonging, prolonging the numbing, and that's when it's like
Dr. McDonald l Well we do it by accident, right? We make our lives too small by accident. Think about, like, what this is how emotional numbing comes up, and it makes so much sense. And it's important to understand that it is an adaptation, and the adaptation is actually genius. It's just that we, as you say, we don't want to live there when you have your first love and your first breakup. What is the first thing that you think right after the breakup?
Robin | I don't know. Like, you want to talk to the person
Dr. McDonald l True. I want them back, right. But when you were, like, point where you like, really, are just like, oh, this is over. You go to yourself, I am never gonna do this again. It's not worth too much risk. The stakes are too high. Forget it. I'm never going to do this again.
Robin | I don't think that way, but I think a lot of people do, yeah, I'm a die hard lover.
Dr. McDonald l I love it. I love it. And so you, so maybe not you, but most people will go to this place, or maybe you do it with other things, where you get some exposure to something that feels so bad that you're like, I'm gonna opt out. And we think that we're more sophisticated than we are, because we think, like, okay, well, I'm just gonna numb this feeling and I'll just go ahead and feel all the rest of the ones that I want to feel. And the truth is that we're not actually good at that kind of compartmentalization, even though we wish we were. And so you end up numbing whatever you need to numb, but then you also end up numbing all the other stuff. And so if we go away from like the love breakup example, you know, if you're dealing with a ton of anxiety, but you need to function, you have only one choice, which is to figure out how to numb the anxiety. And you might do that by overworking and pushing your emotions down, by drinking, by indulging, by making your life outside of work, really tiny and full of just things that help you disconnect. All of those things are necessary and helpful in survival mode. The problem is, when they become your lifestyle, they start stealing other things away from you,
Robin | Yes, absolute thieves
Dr. McDonald l Yes, yeah and that's the point where you're like, okay. And this will come like clients will will say things like, oh, you know, I this really good thing happened. But like, I can't feel it. It's not landing at all. And it's like, oh, bing, bing, bing. We've got the, you know, with the joy thief here of emotional numbing. How do we fix it? Right. And the answer there is to figure out how to get your nervous system into a place where it feels safe enough to lean into feeling and then, you know, toggling back so that you can feel like your nervous system doesn't get fried. Because I think we sometimes jump to this place of like, okay, well, if I can't feel joy, or I can't feel this thing, I just have to go fully into it, and that usually just ends up being the backfires.
Robin | Yeah. So one of the I just this was one of I love when I like learning from my expert experts, just like I love this. You said, one of the greatest ways for us to build our joy and hope circuits is by being kind to one another. Well, it like, it makes sense
Dr. McDonald l I know
Robin | But like, I love the stories and the examples, right. Like you talk about your first love in the book. Thank you for sharing about Jeremy and how he was in the hospital, you know, for because he was terminally ill, right?
Dr. McDonald l Yep, yep
Robin | And, but he was that guy,
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | That was the light
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | Shining for all the other patients, his buddies, and being like, helping them see the goodness and bringing joy to their lives, and how, like, that is itself. It's like it comes back to you, right. It does. It does. Because if you're bringing light to somebody else and being kind to somebody else, you are going to that is the way the world works
Dr. McDonald l Right, right. It's like you're carrying the torch, and so the light is with you as well. You know, like, and it happens to be one of the ways, one of the most surefire ways, to turn on the hope circuit, which, again, by definition, turns off the fear circuit. But I don't think we do that knowingly, you know. But if you think about, you know, Jeremy was and he was incredible at the time, of course, but then when I look back as an adult, he was a teenager, and he was dying, and he was in the hospital instead of at home and living his normal life like all the rest of us. And what he chose to do with his time was devote it to the other kids in the youth ward and the young adult hall, you know, and making sure that like everyone else was doing okay. And he was like a little therapist to everybody, and it was just endlessly kind. And I again, like, I admired that, of course, at the time, but now looking back, you know, that doesn't square with a lot of the things we think about teenage boys. You know, it's amazing. It's, yeah, it was so is it that that time
Robin | As an example, like so that is one way, though, a very concrete way. Way that we can turn off the fear and turn on the hope circuit is by being kind to one another.
Dr. McDonald l Yep and that's man, do we need that now, right. Like, I think I've been floored by this in the last couple of weeks. I'm not sure if it's getting worse, or I'm noticing more or whatever, but everyone is on the edge of rage all the time
Robin | On the edge of rage
Dr. McDonald l Right? And so, like,
Robin | I don't know, I if you're seeing this, I mean, I want to hear more about that.
Dr. McDonald l I just think, like, and maybe it's here more. Of course, maybe it's here more. But, um, you know, you go to the grocery store. I was at the grocery store the other day, and there's a line, right. And it was like, you know, after word was like, 5:30 there's a line. Everyone's coming home and stopping by the grocery store, but every single person's jaw was clenched, and this woman came around the corner, she hadn't yet seen the line, and she just started yelling as soon as she saw the line about how I can't catch a break. And she was using much more colorful language. And this will happen in the car right like you'll try to be merging, and someone will honk at you and give you the finger, and people are just right at the edge of rage all the time, and and I understand that. I think we are, we are in an extreme, extreme moment in history, and we're scared, and fear is right next to rage. We feel out of control. But what would happen if we all just for 48 hours pushed against that tendency and instead tried to do something nice? Could we let that woman in line ahead of us? Could we let the person go without honking and giving them the finger understanding that people do sometimes need to merge. You know, what would the world look like, and what would we feel like? What would our nervous systems do in response?
Robin | Right. It's like, when we demonstrate the kindness that we want to receive, just like you said, it's adding to the collective giving everybody like we're like, adding to the collective calm, which is what we need more of.
Dr. McDonald l Totally, yeah, but I don't, but maybe that's just here because you're in Canada, right? Is it not.
Robin | The whole country is not calm, but I think I'm not, I'm not coming up against rage every day. Yeah, but yeah. So okay, I wanted to talk also about reverence and awe.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah.
Robin | Oh my goodness, that was a beautiful, like, just beautiful part of the book as well. Reverence can get us out of the ruminating of negative thoughts and hyper vigilance
Dr. McDonald l Yep.
Robin | So you give this example of Frank, who is, I mean, he like he was an inmate for gang related crimes, right?
Dr. McDonald l Yep.
Robin | And you know that that in itself, like the people that you have worked with, people that you help and see, like, you know, the example of Lena, she's in the psych ward. You've got Frank, you actually did a lot of work with people that have been incarcerated, which is, I don't think that's that's not usual. I don't talk to a lot of psychologists and therapists that are working with inmates. So tell us. Tell us about that story around Frank and how, how you helped him be more in a place of like, looking for reverence and awe. Yeah, that was really helping him.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah. You know, the I think that they helped me, that was so I spent two years working pretty much primarily with previously incarcerated gang members, and we were working in a nonprofit that was helping them post incarceration with their reintegration process. And so we're working with social services institutions that were helping them find and keep employment, and we were coaching them through that first year of post incarceration employment. And so, man, that was the most life changing, meaningful work. It's almost ridiculous to wow what I learned from from that time, and I think I tried to make the chapter like that, right. So I was Frank's coach, but he was teaching me, you know. And so basically, one of the things that we we don't think about enough there, there's like a very fine balance in our brains and neurobiology between what's set up and what we can change. So when you live in an environment where you're in danger all the time, you get a set of networks firing in your brain that are telling you that the world is dangerous and you have to be on guard. And so if you think about the life of a gang member, right nobody chooses a gang. You you you join gang because you need
Robin | You have to. You need to
Dr. McDonald l And so, or you're forced to. And so you're setting someone up from the age of like, sometimes seven, for this understanding of the world that everyone is in everyone is, you know, coming to get you, and you are in danger all the time. So your whole brain circuitry is set up that way. And then you go through these life experiences, and you want to live differently. And so I was seeing these guys that were coming out of incarceration, they were wanting to live differently, of course, right? And they've had, sometimes decades of time to think about how, but then they get out in the real world, and those default settings kick into gear. And, you know. That comes through in really problematic ways, because you'll be interfacing with people at work, and you're operating as if they're coming to get you, and they're not. And then, so how are you going to behave out of that? And then what is that going to do for you? You know, not a lot. So the so that's sort of the the scary part, the hopeful part, is that our brains are very, very malleable, far more malleable than we thought. And there are very simple things that you can do that shake up that default setting, like program that's running in your brain and helps you reset and join the world again, essentially, and reverence is one of the things and awe. These are things that can that have the power to reset your brain. And so lots of research on this in different areas. This is the reason why psychedelic medicine works for folks who are dealing with like treatment resistant depression or PTSD. It's because the theory is that the psychedelic experience is so full of awe that it's like hitting a huge reset button on your brain. Now, because of the way the world works and because of people's individual preferences and things like that, we can't all just take psychedelics. So what right? And the exciting thing is that awe and reverence are available to you all the time. That whole entire two year period where I was working with previously incarcerated folks was completely full of awe and reverence for me. And so I could feel myself resetting, you know, when I was working with them and hearing their stories and just being around them. And so I just mirrored that back to Frank in the book, and we did a study on awe. How can you Drench yourself in awe and reverence so that you can reset your default settings essentially, and then kind of live in the world in a different way? Does that make sense? I feel like I'm not
Robin | And he and he took it quite literally, right? So what you're saying is when we deliberately like, when we are seeking to experience, to see the world in, in, in through a lens of awe and wonder and reverence. It is literally, physically rewiring our brain
Dr. McDonald l Yes
Robin | And like, I just think that's incredible. I know, like, I live in the most beautiful place in the world. I say it all the time. I really mean it. Like, I look out at the ocean every day and every morning, and throughout the day, I'm doing dishes, whatever I'm doing, I'm looking at the ocean, and I'm full of awe and reverence.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | Where I live
Dr. McDonald l Yes
Robin | Because it just I can. I'm living it. I feel it. So maybe I'm getting a daily reset many, many times a day.
Dr. McDonald l Oh, I think definitely yeah.
Robin | And so the example of Frank, you were like, Okay, let's do this. And I remember, like, well, in the book, you said, like, you watch across the street, you guys walk to the beach and you and you, like, watch the sunset, yeah, right there. It's like, Yep. Any of us that just take time to watch a sunrise or sunset, right? That can be a daily exercise in, in looking for awe and wonder, because every time I feel it when I watch a sunset or sunrise
Dr. McDonald l Yeah totally, as long as you let yourself be present, right? And I think this is the thing like one of the other things we have to understand about our brains is that we have a built in negativity bias. So we automatically imprint the negative things. We automatically imprint the things that are embarrassing, the things that are dangerous. We have to manually imprint the good stuff. Otherwise we miss it. But when we do, we're actually getting a much clearer, more balanced view of the world than if we just let our negativity bias take over, because the negativity bias is only showing us half and so
Robin | Oh my goodness. So you're saying so we're manually imprinting beauty that we're seeing in the world. And just like, wow. So I wanted to hear more about how you were, how you were shown reverence and awe with, for instance, in the inmates that you were working with, for those you know, you're saying that they were giving you that, you know those experiences just by working with them, is that through their stories of how, like, how much they how the beauty that they were seeing in such dark situations in their lives
Dr. McDonald l Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean Frank, I think this is in the book. Frank told me one morning about, you know, that they were raising doves in the yard. And I thought, like, what? Like that goes against every preconceived notion you have of a gang member in prison. Yes, and there's something about that undoing of like
Robin | Belief systems
Dr. McDonald l And belief system the stereotype, whatever that is just, I mean, even just thinking about that image, right. It gives me awe. The other thing I think that was so remarkable about working with them is that I've worked with individuals who are working on themselves for my whole career.
Robin | Yes, this is your job.
Dr. McDonald l This is my job. I do, and I am constantly in awe and honored by other people's commitment to their own work. And then these guys are like, on, on, you know, multiply that times 1000 they are brave and fearless and totally self aware, open about things that they've done, that they're ashamed of or feel guilty about, and things they want to work on, and how they could show up better for their kids and their partners, and like it's it was
Robin | A huge commitment to their, huge commitment to change
Dr. McDonald l And and a kind of presence that I'd had never seen in in people before, but, yeah, commitment, commitment to change, commitment to sobriety, commitment to not letting the darker powers win, you know. And just like an openness to other people. Because I think when you're working that hard on yourself and you're being so truthful and honest, you're also, by nature, just open to other people's everything you know, and you're there for them, and you're present, and you see what people need. It was just it was amazing. It was amazing work. So yeah, their individual stories, the tragedies that brought them into gang life, the tragedies that brought them out of gang life, their experiences in incarceration, the lack of humanity that we show our citizens and how they rise above it. All of that was inspiring.
Robin | It was inspiring, yeah, what your book and your work like you're getting to see just how human beings like when we are in this space of like wanting to and wanting to be more aware, and wanting to change, wanting to grow and heal and, like, we are very capable, right? And that's like, I think it's just this complete false belief that people can't change. What a lot of shit,
Dr. McDonald l Yes thank you, what a load of shit
Robin | No, really. Like, I know I've changed. We were always changing. Hopefully it's for the better. That's the whole goal here, right?
Dr. McDonald l Right
Robin | But there's just so many ways, and I think that's like, just the tools that you're giving people to like, we can rewire our brains. And I just love this idea about imprinting
Dr. McDonald l Yes.
Robin | And so it's like, if we can, if we can do this over, over and over, and make it such a conscious practice, it's like we're our brains are changing
Dr. McDonald l Yes
Robin | How we're looking at the world is changing
Dr. McDonald l And the way you experience the world is changing. So to give you a silly example, so I got, I got mono earlier this year, which I didn't realize you could get
Robin | Wow. Who were you kissing MC? Back in the day, it was a kissing disease.
Dr. McDonald l I know
Robin | Such false science. I know
Dr. McDonald l It turns out is that it, it stays in your body. So when you get it, you can it can reactivate, which I did not know it's
Robin | Kind of like shingles or something
Dr. McDonald l Yes, exactly. And so, so I got it, but then it led to Bell's Palsy, which is,
Robin | Oh my gosh
Dr. McDonald l On half of your face. And so
Robin | I'm sorry to hear that.
Dr. McDonald l Thank you. It was so intense, and
Robin | No doubt
Dr. McDonald l Great, like it was just weird and but I had committed to being on video once a day. And so I was like, oh my God
Robin | How am I gonna find a tiny little joy in this
Dr. McDonald l Exactly and and like that was painful. It was an awful couple of weeks. I felt like, Elephant Man. It was bad. It was really bad. And having to show up every day on video and find something and for 10 or 30 seconds imprint that good thing was profoundly grounding during that time, and it didn't change anything, right. I was still sick for like, six weeks. My face was paralyzed. Made everything in my life complicated, from brushing your teeth to working to sleeping, like all of these things and the tiny little joys didn't change that or take anything away, but it grounded me and helped me see that those bad things were not the only things we get tricked into thinking and believing that the bad stuff is all there is, and it's just not true.
Robin | It's absolutely not true. And like we talked about in the beginning, when, when the darkness, like, when the sadness, when the grief, when tragedy hits, because it's going to over and over again in our lives. And when you're into darkness, like, you know you can't you're okay, you're in it. It's like, that's gonna happen. So if we could fill, it's like, I think about like, when the Gottman say, like, fill the bank. Like, all the positivity, oh, goodness yes. Because that way, when they're, when they're when the shit hits the fan, which is going to, it's like, we could pull from, we, hopefully we can pull from that, right. Or we know how to get out of it, how we can, like, we could find the sliver of light in the door, yes, when, when it's time
Dr. McDonald l Exactly, yeah
Robin | Right, is that Is that how it works?
Dr. McDonald l That's exactly it. That's and I love the image of the light under the door. I love that. That's exactly it.
Robin | Yeah well, is there shame can we just talk about shame and how what the difference betweenBecause you, you know, you say we, I think a lot of us have heard right, that the guilt and shame, but I've never heard you say, like that, shame is is deadly, right? It's so incredibly, like, can we talk about that and how shame really does is a big, huge thief of joy.
Dr. McDonald l It's the biggest thief. It's sort of like, I try to, I call it like the final boss. You know, if you're playing video games or whatever, it's like, the the you work up. To it. But the other image that I came up with, which is a little bit dark, keeping with the theme of darkness and light, was that shame is guilt metastasized. So if we feel guilty or feeling joy enough, eventually that builds up to this belief that we don't deserve it at all, that we're not worthy of joy and any of the corresponding emotions, hope, gratitude, imagination, creativity, to your point earlier. And so once you find yourself in that position, that's really tricky, because then you don't believe you are worthy of the thing that you need the most. So
Robin | Right. Like something, like something that you talk about, which I think is like, I still really can't wrap my head around it, like, all the way, but if something really good is in your life, yes, some of us, like, if we, if we have deep down inside of us a worth that we don't think we're worthy of that goodness we as human beings will sabotage. And I was like, because I but that would be like, sometimes that is coming from a place of shame.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah. Right. Totally, yes, I have this thing. And, I mean, this is also, like, at the heart of imposter syndrome, right. Like, oh, I have this opportunity to work on this project or have this job, and I don't deserve it. I'm not worthy. They just don't know it. I've been sneaking past everybody, you know. And that's, you know, that's a form of self sabotage, because we're not allowing ourselves the joy of the experience. We're saying, I don't deserve this, and that's so heartbreaking, because we're again, we're missing out, not just on the joy in the moment, but whatever else the opportunity contained and where it was going to send us next, you know. And that's, I think, a tragedy. It comes up a lot with people who have had trauma in their childhood that feels like it has stained them.
Robin | Yes
Dr. McDonald l They carry this feeling that like joy is something for everyone else, but not me.
Robin | Right
Dr. McDonald l And that's again, profoundly not true, but it does lead us to sabotage, because then when something comes into your life that takes that form or makes you feel joyful, you think I'm not entitled to this, so I have to destroy it, or walk away, or, you know, do something that rationally I wouldn't normally want to do. So and it's really sneaky, because it is this underlying belief of not good enough.
Robin | And so if somebody's feeling like, that's, it's a lot, right. And it's like, we don't have time to go into all of the all those things. But I mean, all the things we've talked about is finding the little joys, looking for awe and wonder, being kind, all of all of these things are changing our brain, so that if you are coming up against shame, you know, in something like, I remember when I was going through my divorce, and I was full of shame, debilitating shame, because I felt like, Robin, how could you have done this? How could you have put yourself in this position and your children? And here you go, like you're now, you know, it's just like, yeah, so, like, it was beyond, it was shame, you know
Dr. McDonald l Yep, totally.
Robin | But I was, and I had to, I was in it for a while. Like, you just have to go, sometimes you're in it. You are
Dr. McDonald l Oh, yeah, yeah.
Robin | All the joy in the world was not getting the eye of it for a while
Dr. McDonald l Right
Robin | But I, but somehow, I think it, maybe it was just focusing more and like, somehow I lived through it. I went through it weeks and weeks and weeks of it, and then and then, slowly and surely I was able to get get out of it.
Dr. McDonald l Yeah, yeah. And I think slowly and surely is the thing, you know, we always want the, okay, what's the magic pill? What's the one thing that I can do that will make this go away? And the truth is that the image that I got when you were just explaining that is that you're like, plunged into it, and then you want to immediately get out, but you're deep down in there, and so the only way out is to take one tiny step at a time. And as it turns out, that ends up being safer for our nervous system. So when our nervous systems are operating from a belief standpoint, our nervous system wants to hold on to that belief. So if we start acting in opposition and just hoping that the belief will go away, it usually comes there's like a snapback effect that comes back even stronger. And so all of the tools in the joy reset are sort of built on this model of like giving your nervous system and your in your soul tiny little doses of opposite experience so that you can become used to a world in which you don't have to live in shame, or a world in which you don't have to be hyper vigilant. You can't just snap yourself out of that, if that's how you've been off, and your nervous system is calibrated to that, you know what I mean?
Robin | Right. Yeah. Like you say, like, it's um, you're titrating,
Dr. McDonald l Yes, exactly right.
Robin | All of the exercises that you give in are in your book, are titrating us, like, step by step, like, drop by drop, ounce by ounce. Yes, that's the way we change. It does not, we do not change overnight. And that's like, you know, it's kind of funny in Instagram, we, you know, it's just like, you're looking at everybody's shiny, everything's I just. Like, how did they, how did the business go from here to here? Well, actually, it's been 15 years in the making, exactly. Or, you know, like, we just don't, we're not. That's not the way we're wired. We're not wired to change overnight. But I just love the fact that, you know, if we've got these daily practices, the tiny little joys, all of it does add up.
Dr. McDonald l Yes it does
Robin | And you're going to see change, and it's positive change, so
Dr. McDonald l Absolutely, 100% yes.
Robin | Oh, MC thank you so much for everything, for your time.
Dr. McDonald l It's so lovely talking to you.
Robin | It's always so lovely talking to you. This has been a joy. I was looking forward to this joy.
Dr. McDonald l Thank you.
Robin | I knew it was going to be, I'm going to end our conversation with a blessing
Dr. McDonald l Yeah
Robin | Based on everything that we that I've been learning from you all week, may we seek out joy, and you talk about waiting for joy, you know it'll show up. Sometimes you don't have to do a darn thing. You just wait for it. And remember that joy and hope are our birthright. Joy, light and hope are always possible, even in the darkest times in our lives, may we practice reverence, recognizing the tiny little joys that exist within this awe inspiring world, and may we consciously choose to access our ability to experience joy and hope, knowing they will help us heal, remembering one of the best ways to build our hope circuit is to be kind to one another, and that, I think, is one of the most important responsibilities that we have, is to be kind to ourselves and kind to one another. So kindness, kindness. Thank you MC McDonald
Dr. McDonald l Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's such a joy to be here.
Robin | Thank you so much for being here with us. Let's Talk Love is brought to you by Real Love Ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme. If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com for more resources and tools to boost your relational skills and get better at love. If this podcast has resonated with you, it would mean the world to us if you could take just 30 seconds to do these three things, follow or subscribe, never miss an episode by hitting the follow or subscribe button wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether it's Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite app, this makes sure new episodes show up automatically for you, and it helps us get more visibility so more people can find our show leave a rating and review. Your feedback means everything to us. By leaving a five star rating and a thoughtful review, you're not only showing your support, but also helping others discover the podcast. Share an episode that really spoke to you with someone in your life, whether it's a friend, partner or family member, your recommendation could just be what they need to hear. We at real love ready acknowledge and express gratitude for the Co Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play. And encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded it and continue to steward the land that you live on as well many blessings and much love.