Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 6 Episode 7 with Dr. Ramani Durvasula | Transcript

07.03.24

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today on Let's Talk Love, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Dr. Durvasula is a licensed clinical psychologist in Los Angeles. She's a professor of psychology at California State University, and the founder of LUNA education, training and consulting. Today I had the joy of speaking with her about her newest book, It's Not You, Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People. Dr. Ramani educates us on what defines a narcissist, and how so many of us find ourselves unwittingly in relationships with them. What's most important about our discussion is Dr. Ramani has tools and teachings on how to heal from narcissistic abusive relationships. She offers ways to reframe one's journey of healing by honoring your compassion, empathy, strength and resilience. Her work is helping people learn that you are not alone. You can break the cycles of self blame, and reclaim your authentic self. Enjoy.

Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk fresh ideas and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love. Hello, and welcome to this very important episode of Let's Talk Love. I am joined today by Dr. Ramani Durvasula. Dr. Ramani, thank you for joining us again on Let's Talk Love.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula | Thank you. It's so happy to be here.

Robin Ducharme | So I know you we just we just had a little bit your intro before recording. But you you just launched your book last Tuesday,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula | Last Tuesday came out. Yeah.

Robin | So tell us what has what has been the biggest aha moments from readers around around this book? Like what have you, what's the feedback that you've been hearing the people when people have read and

Dr. Ramani | You know, I think that there's a range of readers, there's a group of readers who's just now coming into the space of recognizing their relationship is narcissistic, and basically saying, Thank you, thank you for making us not feel crazy. Thank you for not asking us. Why didn't you try harder? Or why did you stay? Or why didn't you leave or any of that. So I appreciated that feedback. I think others also is appreciated the simple approach of which is you can get lost in the backstory of the narcissist, and they had bad things happen to them, and blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day, that the behavior is unacceptable, and to give yourself permission to say this behavior is unacceptable. And while I might even understand why it's happening, it's unacceptable. And so there's some like if you think it's sometimes just sort of cutting to the sort of simple, these sorts of simple truths. And I think the third piece I've been hearing the most is, thank you for telling us we don't need to leave. Because they often feel a lot of the guidance around people in narcissistic relationships is you got to go or nothing good is gonna happen. And I'm thinking, I would say for most of us, there's at least one narcissistic relationship we can't leave. And so then what you're just helpless and hopeless, and you're just going to live in this terrible kind of sort of subjugated state forever. No. And so I think that that having permission to say, you don't need to leave right away, you just need to know what it is. Because to not know what it is and keep interacting with it is going to hurt you. So I think some people felt very freed by I don't have to go at least not yet. Maybe I will down the road, but not now. And that has also given people permission to say, okay, alright, let me look into this a little bit more rather than I'm not leaving. So this this isn't for me.

Robin | I appreciate that. I think about like you mentioned, you may have a boss that that has a narcissist, you might have a family member.

Dr. Ramani | Yeah.

Robin | You might be co parenting with a narcissist, that relationship is ongoing for the rest of your life.

Dr. Ramani | Yep.

Robin | And you can't leave. There's nothing. There's nothing you can do about that. So you have to figure out how to navigate that. And like you said, there's examples where people are intimate partnership with somebody that is a narcissist. And maybe it's just giving those people the understanding. Like, like you I like I love there were so many aha moments in this book, Dr. Ramani, like one of the things you say is like, you know, this, this idea that we that we can all change. That's a bunch of BS

Dr. Ramani | When it comes to this

Robin | What you write, you've been working with 1000s and 1000s of people who are that are the people that are trying to heal because of the narcissistic abuse.

Dr. Ramani | Correct

Robin | And you have worked of course with people that have narcissistic, that are narcissists and tell us about that, about the fact that in your practice, like you've just the experience you had you, you know that people, most people are not going to change. Yeah, so narcissists, right

Dr. Ramani | So narcissism so we all have a personality, right. And you know how we learn that if, if especially as you get older, one of the most important things you can do for your health is to practice flexibility to do stretching exercises, and all that, because the more flexible we can, it's bone health, it's muscle health, right? The same thing applies in psychology, the more flexible we are, especially our personalities, the more flexible we are, the mentally healthier we are, the more adaptive we are, the more dynamic we are, the more we can, you know, again, we can sort of rise to the occasion and be resilient because certainly as we get older, we need that resilience. Well, with narcissistic folks, they don't have that flexibility, there's an incredible rigidity, that to this personality style, it's very fixed, the healthier the personality, sort of the really, the more prosocial the personality, the more flexible it is being able to make allowances for other people being able to pop back even if there's a disappointment, those are all metrics of mental health. And the more flexible the personality, the more we see that. Well, again, if you narcissism, I guess I'd say as a personality style is like concrete, it is not at all flexible. And that to wit is the greatest issue, which is why it's not amenable to change. In order for us to change, we have to be self reflective, we have to say that what I just said wasn't very cool, or that wasn't good, or I can be better, or there's a there's a different way I can approach this or whatever it may be that that capacity to sort of look inward. Think of what you know, be self aware, be self reflective, even consider other people. All of that contributes to us being able to be responsive in a variety of ways, right? And learn from the other person. Sorry, in narcissistic relationships, that's not the case. They don't they aren't self reflective. And for that reason, they just shift blame on to other people, they don't take responsibility. Where's the call to action to change?

Robin | Exactly. So the first few chapters in the book is the review of really, what are these very common traits. And I want to go through those very briefly. But the most the majority of our conversation, I really Dr. Ramani I want to focus on the healing, because that's really where this book shines. It's like, we could talk all day long about the narcissist person.

Dr. Ramani | And we do.

Robin | Yes, yes. And I do want and I do want to talk about that just to give people an idea about the difference, like, what what are the are those common traits? And you do say there's a spectrum. That was a good, that was a really, that that, to me, was a great learning. And, you know, like, if you talk about other personality, the personality types, right. For, okay, how would we go through that? Oh, there is a spectrum. And what are the traits and then obviously, there's going to be a commonality with some of those traits to that, that form a person that has a personality and narcissistic personality.

Dr. Ramani | Right, so I'll talk about the traits and I'll talk about the spectrum and I'm going to talk about how that spectrum applies to any personality style. So let's talk about what makes up narcissism, right. Variable empathy, entitlement, low empathy, really entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, excessive need for admiration and validation, selfishness or what we call self centeredness, preoccupation with themselves. The belief that either everyone envies them or they envy everyone else, they covet what other people have, it is a very superficial vein. Almost snobby, like very focused on again very surface level characteristics very hollow, no capacity for depth, that lack of self reflective capacity I was talking about, what does this translate to into in terms of behavior, manipulation, gaslighting, it, rage, invalidation, betrayal, lying, blame shifting, future faking, neglect, all of these things, it's an emotionally it creates a very emotionally abusive space. And so that's what narcissism looks like as a personality style, it is on a spectrum. At the milder end, it's almost ridiculous, it is vapid, it is hollow, it is shallow, it is a person who is entirely self absorbed. They are, they have no depth to them, they would not be able to sit and listen to you talk about something serious and be sort of looking at their phone or looking out the window. They just don't have that capacity to hold emotional space. But there's a real emotional immaturity or stunted pneus at the mild level, you go all the way to the severe level you're talking about or the high level, if you will, you're talking about manipulativeness, exploitive, madness, coercion, menace. These are people who might even be physically aggressive, who dominate the other person in the relationship. Obviously, if you're having a relationship with someone in the milder end of the narcissism spectrum, it's going to be very different than with someone at the severe end. But frankly, we've all got a personality. Let me use the example of, of that's one one, we'll have to I'll give you two examples. One could be extrovertion. Right. So if a person is sort of at the milder end of extraversion, there might be someone who, who actually was like an adult like they welcome a night out with friends, they are probably stay in decent touch with people, they like connecting with people, they're certainly not going to feel anxious about going to something, you know, to event or party. And at the extreme end of extraversion, you have someone who literally needs social contact. If they don't, they almost get depressed, and they feel like they're deflated. Like, without people around, it's just It's over. It's almost like their nervous system is overwhelmed. So they'll constantly be seeking out people and if they're not with people, it'll really significantly affect their mood. Agreeableness is another personality style, really what could be argued to be almost the opposite of narcissism. At the mild end of agreeableness, you have someone who's warm and friendly and gets along with other people and does you know, just go to does their thing socially. And as well at the high end of agreeableness, it's not always all good, because a person has to agreeable may exhaust themselves being empathic with other people trying to do things for other people, always putting their needs second, and in that way, there's a real risk for someone who's hyper agreeable to not only get burned out, but really get taken advantage of by someone manipulative. So even you know, and if we talked about somebody who has no agreeableness, well, that's a narcissistic person. When we talk about something, something where inter extraversion is low, well, introversion is not just the absence of extraversion, it's a preference for a style low introverts, people who probably like me, like to write and stay at home. I'm probably though medium introvert, high introverts, actually, really, really will be much more cut off from the world and have very little interest in social activities, all personality styles fall on the spectrum. It's not an either or.

Robin | Right. And I think what, you know, in all this, because I've been following you since, you know, for so long, and you're educating people on the fact that this is not about saying this, this narcissists have like this disorder. Right now it's a personality, it's, this is a personality type. And, like you said, it could be like very mild to super severe, but it's a person, there's personality traits that we can identify with. So, so what like you said before, around when we first started talking, there are like, many people don't realize that they are in a relationship with somebody who has these, this this personality. And, and like you said, when they read your book, they're like, well, oh, my god, like, this is what's been going on. It's not It's and this is why you called your book, It's Not You. Because you think this there's so much there's so much, I have to say like I'm divorcing, a person that absolutely has a lot of narcissistic personality traits. Guaranteed. And the longest time in our relationship, I was like, it is me. I'm not being I'm not being loving enough. I have to look at this in a different way. Or, you know, my anger or my upset on this behavior is is okay, Robin, you're not you're not you're not approaching this in the right way because I keep getting shut down and told like It's you, right?

Dr. Ramani | That's right. Yeah.

Robin | The ability to take responsibility so you do you over time. You know, I'm a very like, this is what you say this is not about weak, dumb people that are getting involved with narcisits people that are narcissists. Absolutely not it's actually the opposite. Yeah, it is the kind people the compassionate people, the most empathetic people and can you can you just explain that please? And then we're gonna go into the healing because the healing is so important. How do we actually heal after this?

Dr. Ramani | So a tricky part of this conversation is everyone asks like do narcissistic people deliberately target really nice agreeable warm people? Actually, not really. They target supply and for every narcissistic person, something slightly different source of supply and a narcissistic supply is that admiration that praise that stuff that props them up. So for one narcissistic person supply might be someone who's very a partner who's very attractive. For another narcissistic person supply might be a partner who's very wealthy. For another narcissistic person supply might be someone who has very high social status, they come from a fancy family or they live in a fancy part of town or they have fancy credentials or when whatever fancy job so it depends on the individual right. So if somebody in some cases a person is narcissistic supply be someone who's willing to have sex with them. So it's always going to vary depending on the narcissistic person. So they're, in essence, one could argue they're attracted to all of us, we all bring something different and so that different may be something that a narcissistic person wants. The bigger question it's not who are they attracted to? And it's not even are we but we're all vulnerable. You know why we're all vulnerable, because by and large, these are charming, charismatic, confident, smart, interesting people, they really, really scrub out their exteriors. So they look good. So we're attracted to attractive people. Right?

Robin | Yes, can I make one point around that please? Dr. Ramani you do say this is like, which which I think this is where I fell in. It's like these the traits, the real, the true narcissistic traits, the personality traits did not come out, really, until I'm going to say, like, 18 to 24 months, like things, and then it's really started showing its ugly head by that point, right. So in the beginning, it is all looking like, really good.

Dr. Ramani | It's wonderful. I mean, you initially, we're all attracted to them. And anyone plays back their narcissistic relationship, we're all attracted to something different. But we were attracted again, nobody's like, hey, look, that person over there looks like they're going to invalidate me, that's my person. Nobody says that. So the attraction part isn't actually nearly as interesting as who gets stuck in these relationships. And the stuck part is where the empathic, agreeable, nice patient forgiving people come in. Because if a person really, really had a sense of like, this is not cool, you might be more likely to call pushback. And if you do, if you do the pushing back early enough in the relationship, the narcissistic person may cut bait, but you just raised a really important point. And then important point is it can take 12, 18, even 24 months to figure out what's going on if it's like red flags, red flags, red flags. And the question frustrates me a little bit, because I think people want to think that there's something I could figure out by the third or fourth date. And while most people who've been in long term narcissistic relationships, and they do the reconstruction will say, yeah, there was some little things in there. But if I were to go back to square one, I still don't think I would have honed in on those things. Because in the midst of all the other good stuff going on, it would have actually felt a little bit odd for me to over focus on that one thing, and most of that stuff is good, these folks can show up as really good for a long time. The problem is when it starts going badly, it starts going really badly, there is no ability to communicate about it. Um, people literally feel crazy. They say like this, they're got, is this got to be me, because the first year of this relationship was fine. So maybe this isn't narcissism, because it took a year or two to show up. I'm telling you now, even a good therapist might take three to six months to figure this out in a patient. So it takes a while because we don't tend to look for personality, we tend to look at behavior, which makes sense, it's the thing we can see, right? And so behaviors, what's in our face. And if someone's doing the things they're sending the text are showing up, we're going to nice dinners, we're having fun, we're having sex, it feels like a good relationship. And on top of that, you're attracted and they're charming and confident. Even if a few, not great things happen. By and large, we're all going to say, well, this is this is fine. Like this is a relationship. No relationship is perfect. That's why this is so sinister. Because you get it and then by one to two years in by then you might be have agreed to get married, you might actually be married, you might have moved in with each other, your friends, your families, all that stuff's interlinked gets a hell of a lot harder to break.

Robin | Oh, you're absolutely right. And something that I have accepted, which is it's super, super sad. And I think I want to go through the stages of grief that that I think that most of us go through when you're breaking up from somebody that has you've lived with and it's just like, it's so the realization acceptance piece is like, I like those he didn't love me. Like, as sad as that is to say, and except I believe it to be true. And I wonder how many people are that you that say that to you Dr. Ramani? Like I really I was I fully loved him and wanted this relationship to work and we had many therapists on board to try to help us none of that was going anywhere. But I really don't think that there was an ability there that I think was love. I think it was all pretty fakie fakie but it was really it was good acting anyway.

Dr. Ramani | So here's where it gets tricky. This is where this conversation this is where it always goes on a boat goes under the rocks and couples therapy. The narcissistic person thought he loved you. He really believes it and he'll probably say it to the grave, I loved you you're not it's not my problem you couldn't see it you know I did love you don't in and you know what? There are a couple of therapists say that he believes he loves you here's the problem. We all have very different definitions of love and how it shows up. For narcissistic folks it tends to be very superficial tends to be a very what I call money in the bank model. I did these five things for you. That's love. And then they don't they do 27 bad things and you're like but they keep coming back to the five by get keep a roof over my head, our heads. That's love, right? So the problem is a definition issue. What I often say to people, let's not even make a fuss about love because that gets into too much philosophical, messy mess. They don't care. I think that that's really what it is. They just don't care and so your your misery, your unhappiness, your discomfort, your whatever emotion you're having, they literally don't care so they can do hurtful things. Because they're just literally not accounting for you in what they do or say it's just not you are almost like not a non-entity. You're not a human being, they don't account for it. So it's the not caring that I think is what destroys people in these relationships. Love is such a tricky word, right? But there was no caring, there was no cherishing. And to me, the caring, cherishing is what matters in a relationship, honestly, more than love.

Robin | I agree. That's an excellent point. So you talk about the stages of grief that are inevitable, when even if you're still living with somebody that's a narcissist. It's just like, can you could you go through that please? And I also wanted to talk about on page 132, you talk about disenfranchised grief.

Dr. Ramani | Yeah, it's okay.

Robin | To understand, let's talk about disenfranchised grief, because that's another big that was aha moment for me to

Dr. Ramani | Grief after a narcissistic relationship is tricky. And yet, it's probably the most universal and painful part and survival process. So once people get it, whoa, okay, I'm in a relationship with a narcissistic person, then you go to the next level radical acceptance, yeah, this is really not going to change. This is going to continue to hurt me. I've got to make decisions accordingly. The next step is grief. Because you've invested so much hope so much belief that this could get better, we'll go to couples therapy, we'll talk it out, well, we'll express more gratitude, we'll have date nights, all the stuff that people are told to do it that is not there's no date night in the world that is going to fix this invalidating mess, right. But so the grief is just overwhelms people. And I would say, you know, there's some yes, there's an architecture there. Certainly, there's a lot of denial and all the other stuff. But I think more than anything, it's the loss of things that because when we think of the stages of grief, we often think of death, right. Someone's dead. So you have to really adjust to something quite permanent, this person isn't coming back. And don't get me wrong. It's an incredibly complex, you know, fallout after someone dies, and everyone has a slightly different but universal experience. The narcissistic person isn't dead. In fact, they might be living their best life. So this is a whole different game. Okay, so now you're dead people don't post to Instagram, let's put it that way. And so now you're walking in a world where you are grieving, not just the loss of the routine, the belief in a future together, the hope for the relationship, the the idea that even you could fix it, you're grieving all this, there's a loss of innocence. There's a loss of trust in yourself, in the world and other people, there's a loss of belief in love, like you are losing tons of things. Now, when it happens like that, when we have grief about things that are not death, that you know, there's folks who have called it disenfranchised grief. Some people have called it like Pauline Boss has called it ambiguous loss. So it's this idea that you lose something, but the world doesn't acknowledge it as a loss. So like you're going through a divorce. I mean, people get divorced. And I pray, I think now we're getting smart to that. And we might even cut people slack in the wake of a divorce to consider that grief. But when people use the word grief, I think some people like I mean, nobody's dead, like you can you can go on and you know, they're still the parents, your children, whatever the role they have is, but they don't understand how many other things that matter to you lost. I mean, when we lose a relationship, we lose routines. If you have kids with this person, you're watching sort of the idea of a family that's together, your kids have to go having to go through all of that, regardless of what it is, when it is not seen as loss when it is not seen as grief or they might have your friends might even say to you, you've been complaining about this marriage for years, you should be thrilled. Come on, get out there start dating again, we would not tend to tell someone that if somebody just died, but when it's a narcissistic relationship ending, some people even get the sense of well, you should be glad. Now this person's gone. All you did was complain. But the grief is monumental because it is this sense of grief of there was nothing I could have done and I really loved this person. I am you some people can feel like I still love this person. And like and as I said, for narcissistic people, either when the relationship ends, they're going to come for you and it's going to be post separation abuse, and they're going to harass you and text you and tell you all terrible things and talk badly about you to other people, or they're just going to snap into a new life like nothing happened or they're going to do both, which is the worst version of this. But for people who say, I don't even know how to get my life going again, I don't know how to stand up again. This did such a number on me to watch the narcissistic person literally a month later saying I finally found my true love. And you're like what? What upside down universe Am I in like you told me I was a love of your life. You This is a new love of your life. It's like a cat like you got a lot of lives here and a lot of loves. But for them, it's this grandiose love bombing, announce it to the world with again, no caring, no sense of how this would affect someone else. Those sorts of experiences keep bringing up the grief.

Robin | Right. And I think another just such a common common experience is the shame.

Dr. Ramani | Yeah, yeah, yeah

Robin | And, and that is that part of grief, it probably is part of the process. But yeah, I was in the shame for so long, you know, just embarrassed. Like, there's this, like, the light part of it of shame. Shame is way deeper. You know, like, how could this have happened? How did I let this happen? And the blame, the shame and the blame, which I think is just it's poison. But I think you have to, I felt like that was where I was at for a very long time. And now I'm over it. I'm over the shame. And the blame, and now it's like, okay, forge forward, Robin. Now, how do you how are we going to do that? So this doesn't happen again. Like, so let's talk about the healing. And then how do we prevent? Like, there has to, because there's there's ways, right? Because I don't want to end up in another relation like, I am a such a loving giving person and I want partnership. But no way do I want to step into that fire again. You know, you have to be very cautious.

Dr. Ramani | Yeah, I mean, so you know, to point about your shame, the shame piece, it's huge. And I do consider it part of the grief process. But I think that the shame is a through line in every narcissistic relationship. Number one, they're projecting their shame onto you. And if you don't know what projection is, we sort of take that on. Number two, the world can judge us harshly, because especially since the narcissistic person can show up in public as so charming. And so well put together. Some people might even think you're lucky to be in this relationship, or wow, you're such a great couple. And now you're thinking oh boy, there's really something wrong with me, then there's the if this person behaved really badly, they cheated on you, or you went back after they cheated on you, or whatever they did, or they treat you poorly in public, something like that, then people feel shame for staying in something that's so dysfunctional. So the shame is all around. And then when people say, oh, maybe your being, you know, maybe you're being unrealistic in your expectations for a relationship, you feel shame, like maybe I'm not trying hard enough. So the shame is everywhere you look, because people in narcissistic relationships are so judged. In fact, they're even told like, oh, you shouldn't be using that term. That's a clinical term. Like, every time people in these relationships turn around they're shamed. And then they're told, Well, if the relationship so bad, why didn't you just leave? So instead of that other person behave badly, like, that's what we should be focusing on? Their behavior was bad. And I'm so sorry, you had to be in this for so long. I really am. That's what it should be, instead of why'd you stay so long. So I think our tendency is to shame survivors too. And that's got to stop. So that takes us now to the healing piece, right. And we talk about healing. So it's a sort of step by step process. It's not as though it's a unitary process. It's not it depends on so many factors, the nature of the relationship, how long it lasted the other people who are affected by the relationship, resources that you have available to you, for example, even being able to access therapy, what will it mean? Like for example, if a kid you have to stay in the narcissistic relationship, are you able to leave the narcissistic relationship? How long have you hesitant going on, a person who had a narcissistic parent or parents who then rolls into a narcissistic adult relationship has a much longer track of healing ahead of them than somebody where it might have been an adult relationship that lasted a certain period of time, I'm not saying one is easier, it's just going to be more you're, you're having a sort of having to excavate to deeper levels of yourself in a way. So it is a process of first of all, radical acceptance. I always say, this process doesn't happen until you drive to this toll booths, you've got to go through radical acceptance. And I'm telling you now that this is not an experience, it's a this is really bleak. I've done the radical acceptance, and this just became a really dark place. Yeah, of course it did. Because the fantasy, we try to maintain the idea that this is healthy, I can make this work. All relationships are hard. There are some good parts, that stuff that trauma bonded stuff. Now I'm trying to clear the decks of that. So now you're sort of hit with the enormity of the fantasy for me, it's gone. I can't have this hope anymore. And that's often what people were sort of running on for the longest time. I said, No, no, no, we're switching this hoping to you. There's no hope for this relationship being healthy. But there is

Robin | Oh I like that

Dr. Ramani | Right. There's hope for you to take yourself back. There's hope for you to find your voice in other areas of your life again, this is very it's not It's Not You. It's very much a book about hope. But for the first time instead of putting our damn hope in the narcissist in the relationship, it's about putting the hope in the survivor.

Robin | Yes. So Like you said, there's the on that healing is ongoing detachment and indifference to them. So you say it's a place of detachment and even indifference towards them. But it is not about being detached and indifferent about what happened to you.

Dr. Ramani | Correct? Correct. And yes, yes. So that's, that's that point I was making is that you something happened to you, and to engage in radical acceptance, to become detached is not to say, oh, nothing happened, I'm fine. It's, this was a bad thing that happened to you, okay. And it's you, in order to survive, you have to disengage, just like we'd be willing to disengage from anything that's toxic. It's something about we still stigmatize people who are estranged from their families, or who who separate from their families at all, we still stigmatize I still think we stigmatize people who are divorced, I really do. I still think there's sort of a couldn't make that work kind of thing. And I say that as a divorced person.

Robin | Oh definitely

Dr. Ramani | So I know what I'm talking about here on this one.

Robin | I'm going through my second I'm like, oh, brother

Dr. Ramani | No, I mean, I can't I've said it many a table where it was sort of like, oh, couldn't make that work. We do it to ourselves. Like, I can't tell you frankly, how many times I've sat around a table, and you see the people and they got their long marriages, and it's all working. And I'm like, you feel that you feel it in your tummy, you feel it. And if it doesn't feel good, right. You know, it's not that I did something with anyone signs up to get married for it to not work, you want it, Well, all of us want to belong to something. And going through a narcissistic relationship and all the madness of it leaves us feeling as though we don't belong to something, especially if it's your family, right. So the disengagement and a lot of the work on healing is disengaging. Even if you physically are still in the relationship, some people for example, don't feel they can distance from a family, some people have to co parent with a narcissistic person, so they're still in each other's worlds, so you can't fully disengage. So you've got to find ways to engage where you're not putting yourself back up on the chopping block, right. You learn it's almost as though there is in even in one of my other books, I'd use this example of like, let's say you had a really, really expensive, I don't know, like little statue or something your house with 1000s of dollars, you would never let a three year old hold it, because the three year olds could drop it. Do the same thing with yourself. You've got a view, you've got to view yourself as this precious object. Don't hand it out to people to hold because the narcissistic people are invariably going to drop it and break it. They already have, don't don't let's just stop doing that they don't get they don't get access to your inner sanctum anymore. They get to hear sort of sports news, weather that's it?

Robin | Good oh, yes. I love that. You know, you talk about reframing, right? You say shaping. It's like the hero's journey, rather than, you know, seeing the beginning of the book, you just you're talking about the hunter and the lion and too many too much of it in society is is, is really just focusing on the hunter, which is the narcissist not the lion who is being hunted. And I love this idea about the healing when we're reframing our healing is shaping the story through the hero's journey. And you say shaping your journey through the hero's journey framework transforms your perception of your healing process from someone who is dragging themselves out of a mess to a person who bravely undertook one hell of a treacherous trip.

Dr. Ramani | Right. That's really what it is.

Robin | I love that.

Dr. Ramani | Yeah. Because I mean, I think that when we look at it, this sort of original construction of that myth, right, it was every myth that's ever been written by human beings has pretty much had the structure, which is a person is called, right, they're called to take something on usually it's a journey, right? In a sort of, like, whatever journey of some kind. And so to usually, it's a good over evil, which is what this is an evil strong word, but good over bad. And so we're called to what calls us I don't know, maybe my book, maybe an argument, maybe a video, we see maybe something we hear a friend going through something calls us to say, this is not okay. Whatever that moment is, it's actually quite different for every survivor, we feel called. And we're going to start this and then we start and you almost need to view it as you got a bag on your back and you're starting to walk down the road and you're starting this journey. And on this process, you're going to encounter demons, which can be those voices in your head that keeps saying you're not enough. This is your fault. You're the problem, you're damaged, you didn't try hard enough. And then you're gonna encounter other enemies, like people saying, Why didn't you try hard enough? I can't believe you don't talk to your mother. What kind of person detaches from their family? You have kids, you should have tried harder. So you have those voices. You're plodding through this journey and but just like in the old myths, where they had to fight them off with arrows and knives and swords, but along the way, you have helpers and they're your fellow travelers. These might be therapists, friends, support groups, even a stranger who gets it. It could be a YouTube video for all I know, but those fellow travelers, they don't stay with you the whole time though. They're with you for a part of it. This is your process. You're coming home to you. And then as a person evolves out of the hero's journey, they return home what ever home is home may simply be their sense of self. But what will happen is when a person heals, you're never the same again. Because you now have what I can only call a superpower, you get this. And once you get this, you do not interact with people the same way ever again. You you're aware of it, you soon see the gaslighting happening. And other people be like, oh, come on, you gotta give them a chance. And once you've been through this, like, no, I don't, I've done I've been there. I've seen this movie before. I am not doing this again, you learned discernment. But the problem is problem I put in quotes, once you come out of this journey, this healing journeys, hero's journey, as it were, you are changed. And because of that, you start to realize that you might have been dealing with one primary narcissistic person, maybe it was a spouse, or whoever it was. And you come out of this, like, wait a minute, there's other people here who were fine with me when I was the stuck half self I when I was in this relationship, but now that I've kind of come into my own, they're not that interested in me, or they're trying to hold me back or keep me down or not listen to me. They were part of the problem, too, not saying they harmed you. But they were allowing that they

Robin | Enabling

Dr. Ramani | They were enabling, they wanted you to stay in that role in a way because it served them. It allowed them to feel good about their own messed up marriages, it allowed them to feel good about the status quo, we all get together and go on vacation every year, they were willing to trade you off for their status quo. They don't want the whole you they don't want the authentic you. And a painful thing for a lot of survivors is that moment you kind of come out the other end of the hero's journey, and you thought, oh, this isn't just about a divorce. This is an overhaul. You know, this is this is different friends, this is interacting with people differently. This is how I spend my time differently. Most people will say their social circles shrunk after this because we're like, I'm not doing that anymore. And people learn discernment when I work with clients their like, yes, this is I'm getting more discerning, like that wasn't cool. And they said, I put up with this stuff from this friend for 30 years. And now I see it for what it is, which always leaves me feeling less than feeling on my back foot. And that's how they kind of kept some power over me. They said, but my, my marriage was so toxic that I didn't notice this. That's what coming out of it. In fact, when I always use the example of the Lord of the Rings, which is, you know, very classic, you know, relatable example of the hero's journey. And at the very end, there's a moment where Frodo who went through the worst of it, right. He comes out and his friends were like, come on back. Come on, let's all go live in that shire together. He's like, yeah, no, I'm not gonna be able to I've been to change by this. And he goes, he has to go off somewhere else, right. And that, that metaphor, to me is absolutely gorgeous. Because that somewhere else doesn't mean you're physically moving. But it does mean that there are shifts in you that you may not snap into your old life. This isn't about healing. And like, I'm just going to pick up with everyone else. You see the world to me. And that's why there are so many people in the world who don't get this. And when they don't get this, I can see like, yeah, it's so sad, because I realized for a lot of folks, the only way they do get it is having been through it. Right. I wish that wasn't the case. But unfortunately, it is.

Robin | Yeah, there's a lot of us that have. So hopefully there's support

Dr. Ramani | Oh yes, oh yes

Robin | From people that are experienced in this that have gone through it. So something you talk about is which is very common, I think with so many of us that go through a breakup is euphoric recall, right. All you can think about is the positives that happened. It's your remembering the good times. It's kind of like when somebody like when somebody dies that you loved so much. You they like you know, turn into ANGEL status immediately. Like you can't, like you're not you're not thinking about the bad and like you know the humaneness of them. It's just all about all the good, good, good, right? You're not thinking about the bad times, or the fights you had with that person, even though, you know, that's relationships.

Dr. Ramani | Yeah, I think but in a healthy relationship. So this is where I'd say though, in a person going through the grief, the death of a person where it was a loving, good relationship, that capacity to hold on to the good stuff actually does help with the process of grief, we don't want to go back and remember the bad stuff we don't need to because we it is it is we will be able to get to the other side of this, it just takes a minute. But in these relationships, we made things seem good when they weren't.

Robin | Exactly. So one of the things you talk about in the healing process is making a list. And I'm telling you how many I made a lot of lists because, you know, we're working through all the with with all these therapists and things weren't getting better. And I'm like, I know, this isn't just in my head. And then I would talk to like my cousin. And she's like, and my friends. So like you need you need to make a list Robin of all these things because I'm like, I'm not journaling. I'm not writing stuff down. And it was very, that is very important. Right. Like write down number one, you say make make three lists. Number one, make a list of all the bad things in the relationship, because you're probably just thinking about all the good because you've been convinced that it's you. Like my my partner kept saying to me, you know, I can't believe you complaining right now. Like look at this life that we have then this beautiful house, look at our beautiful kids and all the family and friends. And I'm going I know I'm a positive person, I'm an optimistic person. Don't tell me how to be grateful, because I'm grateful. But like this isn't right. Right.

Dr. Ramani | Well, so that list called the ick is it's not always an easy one for people. Some people find it to be very destabilizing and very unsettling. But it's so crucial, because of this concept of trauma bonding, where we're so quick to justify the relationship to make it seem better, because that's how we were able to stay in it so long, it allowed us to maintain an attachment with the person writing it down in moments of clarity gives us that sort of like, oh, god, yeah, no, no, they did do that, didn't they? It's a wake up call that sometimes when we're kind of going down the rabbit hole, it's something in like, very tangible, that there it all is. And in it is inexcusable stuff. I mean, I, I had actually done this many, many clients, and I even did it myself. And I was very struck how it ultimately, and I had it on my it would pop up on my computer screen. So there was no way for me to run or hide from it. And I was like, okay, what are you doing, girl? What are you doing? And so, it was, I hate to say it, but it's almost like a picture of you on your worst day. You're like, okay, I don't want to be that again. So it's, but it's more of like being aware. And sometimes I tell people make this ick with people who saw who loved you. And so I thought this relationship was unhealthy. I've done this with many clients of mine, because I'm listening, right? I'm making notes. So I'll say, oh,oh I have about 27 entries for you. And they'll say, and then we'll write them all out. And they'll say thank you, I forgot all of those. And how if we hold all this misery in our minds, we wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning. Our Our minds are very well structured to keep us going. You know, that's what we want to do. We just want to keep the trains running on time. And so all this horrifying stuff, we tend to compartmentalize it, put it in places, we can't find it easily. And so then we can keep this going.

Robin | Oh my gosh. And I love that idea of which is what I was doing, too. It was like I was asking people, you know, I had I had the rose colored glasses on most of the time, I think to keep going like you said, and I didn't I didn't see or I wasn't remembering. I didn't I wasn't doing the recall. And they're reminding me it's like remember this. Remember when this happened? I remember when this happened. I remember I was going holy crap. Like you said the word inexplicable, like these are behaviors that are inexcusable. And it's like, it's not just normal stuff. These are this is really, really bad behavior. Right.

It's bad behavior. And I think what throws because it's not okay to invalidate another person's feelings. It is not okay, when a person has a, it's just sharing a feeling. Just hearing a feeling to keep saying stop complaining, you have a nice house that is like, it's there's no equivalence there, right. And even that one thing by itself may not seem like a big thing. But you combine that with all the other stuff, you don't get to have a feeling you don't get to be yourself. You don't get to have an opinion. You don't get to ask anything of me. You don't get to make a need known. And if you do, I mean, you you're greedy, selfish and entitled, and unappreciative and ungrateful.

Robin | All of that. Yep. Okay, so we make the list. Number two, this is really good. You want to make a list of the normal things you've had to give up.

Dr. Ramani | Yeah, so this is called the biscuits in bed lists are sort of my own personal way, because I sometimes like to eat little tea,

Robin | Biscuits in bed

Dr. Ramani | Leaves a crumbs in the bed. And like, that's a little pleasure, right. It's harder to do if you're in a relationship. But I think that the little things and for people, these are little things, it's a dessert they love to make, but the partner wouldn't eat it, so they would say don't make that, you know, I don't like that it's a TV show you like to watch and you want to be able to watch it without someone making fun of you. It's the fact that you always had to get pizza from the place that you didn't even like in town that you actually don't like going to vacations on beaches because you don't like sand but you'd love to go to one by a lake or in the mountains or something like that. So it's it's being aware of you like cooking with garlic they were against garlic and they would tell you like that's why you have such bad breath all the time. Like they would say these terrible things and just saying I don't like garlic and so you give up all these little things you love, garlic the temperature you liked it thermostat on the pizza place you loved the kind of vacation you want. And before you know you're living a life that doesn't contain any of the things that matter to you. You're really are just in their service. You're living their life as sort of like a bit player in their life and taking those things back and uneven understanding what did I give up? It is it can slowly show you that oh, these things are actually going to be nice to take back. I mean, I've worked with clients who said one of the first things I did and we talked about it was I would did go and make that kind of dessert they didn't like just for the sake of making it because even when they saw the ingredients coming up and I was oh really so you're gonna make The thing I don't like you're a terrible person, blah, blah, blah. So this is a powerful list because we do give up a lot of day to day stuff. And this is the stuff we can pretty easily, slowly start taking back and see how good it feels to really live back in ourselves again, in these tiny little day to day things that are actually really the stuff of life.

Robin | Oh, I agree, though. And the third list is the big things you had to give up. And but what I when I'm going to talk about that, but number two list is the little things, those little things, like you said, are would add up to how we get joy out of life. And right. And it's just like those little little little things, they all add up. So that you are, like you said, are living more to the way they want to live. And so you've given up so much of yourself, little by little, the way that my analogy that I I've kind of used that I really was just like that's what it was, it was kind of like the faucet was drip drip dripping.

Dr. Ramani | Yes.

Robin | And if that faucet would have been plugged from the beginning, that sink would have been overflowing with water. But because it was happening on such a low drip. I wasn't feeling it. I wasn't missing it. But if you're going to collect all those drops,

Dr. Ramani | You which was also slowly accepted, right. You're like, oh, Joe's Pizza, Bobby's Pizza. What difference does it make? Right. You're like, Okay, we're going on vacation, I should be grateful for going on vacation. So many people would love to go to the beach, right. You you come up with these narratives, where there's never any willingness to say, I really want to go to the mountains, that's not a big ask, we go into big vacation, we're lucky yes, we're lucky to go on a vacation every year. But wouldn't it be nice to mix it up. Or even better yet with a narcissist, it's just a beach, it's like you're going to the beach because they want to play golf. It's really doing the vacation, but they want, you know, so that you don't play golf, right. But that last list that big.

Robin | The big thing

Dr. Ramani | The big list, it's my turn list. It's a this is actually a much more painful list. Because when we look back at what you gave up, some people gave up education's, careers, they gave up having children, they gave up living near family members that matter to them, they gave up the I mean, the things that were given up are big things. And so it's my turn, and not all of them may necessarily be able to get taken back in the same way. But I've seen people say, all right, I'm not going to be able to go back and go to med school or something like that. But I actually trained to become an EMT, because I actually wanted to learn some of that stuff. Or I, I you know, I learned how to become a CPR educator or some people went back to school, they became therapists, you know, and they said, ell, I'm not going to may not pursue a PhD, but they'll get they'll get a degree that will allow them to be a therapist, some people go back and finish a college degree, some people start writing a blog. So you know, they wanted to write a book, they said, Alrighta, let me start small. It may not it doesn't mean you're gonna go out tomorrow, to open a bakery. It's not that, but a person might say, you know, my local farmers market, they have like looking at a table for 30 bucks for the day, I'll make 10 of my pies and see how I do. And those little things. I just reached out from some reach heard from someone who said, I said, my gosh, your businesses wonderful person and believe in themselves. Now, like it's, it's really grown into a big deal. Sometimes people just need that little nudge. But it's giving ourselves permission, step by step to take these things back.

Robin | Right. When when I was reflecting on the big things that I was giving up that I like it really when it came down to was like core values that were so different, that I was bending, right. Oh, well, you know, at all the grandiose excuses of why he had to do this this way, or be like that. And it wasn't aligned with who I am and my values and how I want to live my life or how I want to raise my children for God's sakes. It's like, that is a huge thing that I that I was giving up. And just like until, until finally the realization came. It's like, absolutely not.

Dr. Ramani | Yeah no, no, no, no, it's a but it's these are big things. Like you said, values are a big thing. We just heard heard from someone and someone I was speaking to.And they said, you know, one of my core values used to be something that was like empathy or something. And they said, It's so interesting, because my core values have shifted as a function of being in this relationship. But empathy is a core value, I want to bring it back, but it wasn't working in this relationship. So it sort of went down on the list. But this big ticket stuff, sometimes it can bring up a lot of grief, a person might say, I think I did want to be a parent. And by the time they were done with me, they made me feel like I didn't want to be a parent, but I did and some of those things, those clocks can't be turned back on. So it's a there can be again that that third list I always tell people if you don't feel ready for put it down, always come back to it when you're ready. Or maybe take on some of the pieces and not others. Some people will say I never took a trip by myself, and I'll say okay, start small. You know to maybe book yourself a hotel that's like a four hour drive away and drive to and see what it feels like even do that need a few meals out by yourself and then build on that maybe your next trip will be like a group tour so you feel like okay, there's other people around and go see things. And I also tell folks when you do these things on your any of your lists, your biscuits and bed list your it's my turn list is you take a minute to say what does this feel like? Does it feel different without them around? One woman I know for her it was she likes to travel and she wanted as a person want to travel with a partner. The partner would make it miserable, miserable, yell at the taxi driver yell at the gate agent of the airport, yell at the hotel people give me the seat I want. No, she never got the seat she wanted on the airplane. And I said on this time, your first time flying and traveling without you have to pay attention to every moment. What does it feel like to walk through the airport without him yelling at everyone? What did it feel like in a taxi to come out? What because the first one was personal was scared? Oh my gosh, I've never done these things. Well, how am I going? Am I going to know what to do? I said people will help you people are actually decent. They'll show you how to get that boarding pass. And by the time this woman checked in the hotel, she texted me she said this was an entirely different experience. And I've only been here for an hour. Just that process of travel is wretched with a narcissistic person. So just getting away all that negative energy. She said, this is just she's like the trip could end now and I'd be fine.

Robin | Yeah, I think this all just stems back to what you were saying earlier about. Our healing is not linear. It's it's a process. It's a journey. And as much as we don't want to hear those words, because you just want to fix, make the list. And hopefully it gets better. It's just not the way it goes. It is it is a process. And just I love the reframing of just consider yourself the hero. And all these steps are reclaiming yourself. It's like these pieces that you somehow lost along the way. But really, it's about making yourself whole again, which isn't isn't always like it's not a quick fix. But

Dr. Ramani | No way

Robin | These are all, so before we before we end, let's talk about you have like these ways that we can become narcissist resistant. I don't think there's, there's no there's offices all over the place. It's okay. But we can somehow be more discerning like that's like that's you talk a lot about in your book is how do we become more discerning? And how do we become narcissists repellent just a few like ways that we can be is a little bit more cautious and careful. It's aware

Dr. Ramani | Pay attention to how you feel, right? Pay attention how you feel when you're with someone. It is, it seems like such simple advice. But it is amazing how many people say like I did, in the first five minutes of meeting that person, they don't say that their narcissists like something was setting me off. I say honor that. I mean, unless it's any honestly, this is a job interview. Well, that's an eye opener, you may not want to work there. If this is a person you're meeting in a group, you may not want to socialize with them again, you know, pay attention to these feelings because they've actually been quite honed in this relationship. And your body holds this right. Your body holds the years and years and years of invalidation. Its death by 1000 cuts in these relationships. And we hold every one of those 1000 cuts and the memories of those 1000 cuts can be reinvigorated when we're around someone who's acting in a dismissive way or speaking to us in a certain way. You have to trust that it rarely lets you down, every so often, you might catch someone on a bad day and you might, you know, come to judgment on them sooner. If you haven't, you know, maybe pay attention. Or you might even say to someone like I wasn't comfortable with that personal so yeah, it makes sense. Because they're a terrible person. So you know, it's interesting. Their mom died last week. Is that okay? All right. Give me some context, but pay attention. Listen to that stuff yourself. Slow down. We make mistakes in our judgments when we're going quickly. Right. When we're trying to rush a decision when we're trying to make things happen quickly, we're all moving too quickly, right? We're on our phone, we're doing this, we're doing that that and just stay with it. Allow you know what we always say sleep on it. There's some real, that's old school, but there's real wisdom and sleep on it. Because emotions run through us. And we may then feel less reactive but also more resolute like, yeah, no, I didn't enjoy that. I don't need to do that again. Or, okay, you know, I could do it in a different way. But pay attention to those elements. A third thing is you got to have people around you who see you and validate you and are tuned to you. That's gaslight repellent, because if you have even one person who says, I just saw that that was not cool. It pulls you out of the darkness. You're like, thank you. I thought I was losing my mind. It takes one person and now also do you feel sane, but most people in these relationships don't have that. So cultivating those people who see you who get it and we're willing to say to you like I saw that that's not okay or are you okay? Or are you who listen to you who don't make you feel crazy when you're sharing a want or a need? They may not always be able to meet it, but they don't shame you for having it.

Robin | Right. So Dr. Ramani, tell us about your healing program. And I want everybody that's you, everybody has to read this book. It's Not You, I just thought it was so full of wisdom. And like I said, there's there's, you've already written a different book on narcissism. This one has about narcissism, but it's more about the healing, which I think is so so important. So tell us about your monthly healing program also.

Dr. Ramani | So for people want to do a deeper dive above and beyond the book, and certainly principles in the book are always interwoven. We have a monthly healing program, and people who join the program, get every month we have a workshop, it's around a certain theme, we have a question and answer session, people submit questions, and I answer them during the program as well. We have a guided meditation, we have three journal prompts that come out each week that people can work through. And I think sort of the crowning, crown jewel of the whole program is our community platform. So imagine being in a room with all bunch of other people who've been through this to, the one room where people will never tell you that you're crazy, there's something wrong with you, and the support that they give each other in that community platform, which we very carefully moderate. To ensure that no one is behaving out of line, we give you know what I'm saying we were very careful about that. Because we know that we want to we want people to believe that there's a safe protected space. So we really are. I love that part of it. And it's I have to tell you the things, the success stories I've heard from there, because they're doing the work, I'm not gonna pat myself on the back. They're doing the work. They're taking what I'm teaching, and sharing, and validating and bringing it into their life. Some of some folks in the program are in therapy, some are not. Some people are sort of doing it around other, you know, other kinds of complementary like trauma informed therapy they're in, and everyone's had different stories. Some folks these are work relationships. Some of this is parental relationships, some it's a sibling, some it's a friend, some it's a partner, we all everything, probably I'd say probably the leading is probably a partner with close behind that as a parent, but everyone's got different experiences, and you feel less alone. So I really, I love I love working on it. We just had our q&a session yesterday, they're magnificent group of people, they really are.

Robin | I think when we are healing, I've had this experience so many times, healing in community is, is so powerful. Because you're not having to do it, you're not having to carry it all on, you're by yourself. And like you said, So writing, writing these things down getting it out, rather than holding it, and being able to voice and have validation. Like it's just it's beyond words, how incredibly healing that really can be and you don't understand it until you're in it. And you're like, having that support. I'm just so glad that you you hold a space for people to to heal through this. So thank you, Dr. Ramani.

Dr. Ramani | Thank you. So much.

Robin | I'm gonna close with a blessing based on all that we've talked about all that I continue to learn from you. May we have an abundance of self compassion for ourselves and those around us who have been or in a narcissistic relationship. May we understand that there is no schedule the healing. Healing isabout grieving and clearing out space, and in the new space, building a new life, finding your voice and feeling empowered to articulate your needs, wants and hopes, and finally feel safe. And for those of us who are in the healing journey from a narcissistic relationship, may we reframe our experience from one of victimhood, may we honor our inner strength, resilience and empathy, and maybe cultivate these virtues and build healthy nursing relationships going forward.

Dr. Ramani | I love that. Thank you. Thank you. So thank you so much.

Robin | Thank you Dr. Ramai for all your time.

Dr. Ramani | It's my pleasure. My absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me and, and for your willingness to talk about the book and and share it with your community. I really hope it helps people.

Robin | I know it well.

Dr. Ramani | Thank you.

Robin | Thank you so much for listening. Visit realloveready.com to continue learning with us. Please rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the tools and guidance you need to form more loving relationships and create positive change in your life. We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well. Many blessings and much love.