Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 7 Episode 4 with Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh | Transcript

20.06.24

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hello, everyone, and welcome to this exciting episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm Robin Ducharme, and I am very honored and happy to welcome a guest we've had on the show before, but this is we're gonna be talking about Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh's new book, it's called Love by Design and where we have the author with us today. Dr. Sara, thank you for being with me.

Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh | Of course, thank you for having me, again, always lovely to be in conversation with you, Robin.

Robin Ducharme | It really is, I was very excited to receive your new book, because I know the last time we you were on Let's Talk Love. We were talking about how you were writing this book and how you were going to be launching it. I think it was like over a year, it was a year and a half ago when you were first on. And you were in the process. So congratulations, I It's a beautiful, it's amazing. And I would say and I was just so this morning. So I've got a collaborator, one of my best friends, Kirsten, that helps me prepare for our podcast episodes. And we both read the books and listen to the podcasts and get to know our experts. And then we get to collaborate together and talk about our learnings. And it's such a, it's a beautiful process that we have.

Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh | Beautiful

Robin Ducharme | And we were both like, oh, this is this is one of those books that you're going to be turning to over and over again. Because it's so it's full of really practical and I think powerful exercises, and tools that you can use in your life and in your relationships to improve your relationships. I just like the toolkits and the building blocks. So this it's a Bible for relationships. So I can't wait to talk to you about it.

Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh | Thank you. Thank you. So I've been working on this for how many years? Like 16 years specifically.

Robin | Right? It's a culmination of all of all of your work and all of your experience with hundreds and hundreds of 1000s, 1000s of couples probably by now, right?

Dr. Sara | Yes, yes, yes.

Robin | So you are a world renowned social psychologist specializing in sexuality and relationships. And you've worked across more than 40 countries, with individuals and couples. So I like that in itself is incredible. Like you you're working around the world. And so you've got a very, very worldly view on what makes us different with different cultures, but also what makes us so similar in relationships. So I think I think you come to the table with a lot of different skills that a lot of psychologists out there, so tell us it tell us about what led you to, to work in this field and, and the history around about round writing this book.

Dr. Sara | So how much time do we have?

Robin | Whatever you want to share?

Dr. Sara | Sure. So I want to share as much as this, hopefully would be helpful for people out there. You know, with relationships, we don't get manuals,

Robin | No we don't

Dr. Sara | Usually. And we think we know and we think when love strikes, then the rest will follow. And that is the melody of our generation. And, you know, probably generations generations before, but for us specifically because we are not satisfied with just a mediocre relationship, mediocre job, mediocre anything really. So in my quest to find that for myself and my clients, I conducted multiple research with different people, different parts of the world and three specific research that I draw from for this book. One of them was from the theocrats work that showed the pyramid of self awareness. So what are the things that the person personally an individual needs to contribute into a relationship to give it even a chance to survive, let alone thrive? So that's one. The second one was the qualitative research that I've done with 312 people, you know, couples that I work with personally over 10 years. And then the last but not least, was the one that we did with the US representative sample, meaning that if we have different relational orientations, sexual orientations, all of those were considered in the sample of 159 couples that we studied and more than 300 and individuals who self identified as being in thriving relationships. So I was not interested to look at why we fail, because I think we more or less know that by now. But I wanted to know how not only to survive, but also thrive. And then right. And then the result actually surprised me because I always thought because I was trained in England also, I'm from the Middle East, then trained in England and lived in multiple parts of the world. But I'm being trained in the western mentality, my mentality, my understanding of love was kind of cross section of what I was coming from, and also what I was trained in. And we were taught that the base of love, the basic understanding of love that we have comes from the Greek mythology in the west, west, meaning Western Europe and Northern America, meaning that different types of love that we have listed in the Greek mythology. And the surprising fact for me was that I actually found another type of love, a completely novel a new model of love. I was not looking for it. And it just emerged through the data. And I thought, ha, maybe this would be the answer for our love confusion. And this is what I'm offering to the world.

Robin | Yes. I love that it's an emergent and use that word twice in what you're just talking about. And that is what you are teaching is the emergent love model.

Dr. Sara | Yeah.

Robin | And so how did you because I think that word like, to me, it speaks to, like, you know, you think about something emerging from from the ashes of the ground, right? So it's growing, it's coming up. And like you said, our relationships are changing, we are expecting more out of our lives in all aspects. We want more. And so it's about expansion and growth. And, and that is what I think your your teaching is that this is so much about ourselves, but also growing in our relationships.

Dr. Sara | Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things that I had issues with was when couples or individuals for that matter, would come to me and say, well, why do I end up with all of these wrong people? Why do I repeat the pattern? And yes, we go to attachment styles. Yes, we go to Gestalt, and psychodynamic, whatever that is out there. But is that really the answer? You know, they could, you know, we could hope to help them a little bit. But if they don't know where the destination is, what is the framework that they are operating within, they tend to put their efforts where it doesn't really matter. So one thing that I wanted to do was not only to introduce the model of emergent love, meaning that that, hopefully we'll get to that to describe what does that even mean?

Robin | Yes

Dr. Sara | Emergent love. And the other thing was, so now I know, thank you, I changed my paradigm. Now what what do I do on a daily basis? Who do I look for? How do I look for the person? How do I know that this person is my person? How do I keep it, you know, the relationship that I want? And also furthermore, it breaks my heart. When people ask me, do you really think I'm capable of having the love I desire? Like, yeah, everyone deserves to be in the loving relationship they desire. Why not?

Robin | Yes but we're going about it the wrong way. We have to change the paradigm.

Dr. Sara | Yes our Enstein said it, you can solve a problem with the same frame of mind that created it. You have to see the world and you and that's what I'm offering.

Robin | Yes. And so you compare submergent love to emergent love, and so much so many of us are taught the submergent love model. Right.

Dr. Sara | Yes.

Robin | So let's do you want to start there. Like you talked about this in your own marriage Sara. Which you share a lot about your personal story. And I love this, okay, because you talk about your parents marriage and how it was the daily acts, it was how they treated each other on like, moment by moment basis. And the rituals that they partake, partook in. And just it was so it's so much about other things you're talking about in the book. Okay, so you were raised in a house where your parents had a very thriving relationship. And the,

Dr. Sara | They did

Robin | Is that Is that correct?

Dr. Sara | Yes for the most part.

Robin | There's not a fairy tale here. It's, there's a real to real people. But they're a great example. In many ways.

Dr. Sara | They did, yes.

Robin | But then you as a scientist, and a person that is studying this, you are seeing, like, there's a lot of people getting divorced here, like and then steps are not exactly right. It's not 50% Because that's all skewed in many ways. We don't need to get there, go there. But you're like I don't believe in marriage, because why the heck would I sign up for such a ritual that actually fails? 50% of the time, that doesn't seem right, right. So you've got that side of what your belief system is coming from your parents relationship. And then in your in the beginning of your marriage. You talk about how you did have a codependent relationship and how you realized throughout your marriage throughout that this isn't so so what you did have a submergent relationship and then you've now turned it into a an emergent one.

Dr. Sara | Yes, yes. And it still is a daily practice.

Robin | Yes

Dr. Sara | After 20 something years is still a date of practice. So what I've seen in my parents was that they came together based on multiple areas of attraction that they had for one another. But when I asked them, what made the relationship work, or why did you marry him, why did you marry her? He will, uh, well, it was fate. It was just marriages, like a watermelon. You get married, and then you figure that I'm like, that's not right. You work together, you assist each other at nauseam, you spend so much time together, had so many shared experiences and hobbies together shared values together. So how could you just sit there and say this was fate? And the daily practices that they had for one another going out of the way for one another, having each other's back. So why don't we talk about those little things that actually make the huge differences? So that was their marriage. But yes, your point, I was 15 when I decided not to attend any wedding whatsoever. Because I thought, yeah, we go to the wedding, nice clothes, nice pictures, and then give gifts, whatever. And then six months later, six years later, whatever, they fall apart, and for my 15 year old mind, I was thinking if you really honestly, I should have published this in the book. If you look at my pictures in any weddings that they forced me to go to I look like this. I gotta I know what's coming. It's like so naive. But as a person who is trying to learn about relationships, what about me? How am I going to end up to be? So that was not really very appealing. And then when I met my husband now, things were a little bit different. Because I felt like, you know, with all the information that I got, like, for example, I remember I asked the professor of mine that I thought they had a very healthy relationship. He told me that when you were when you saw somebody, and you feel like you can't live without them, that's your person. And how many of us are given those messages? Right?

Robin | Yes, we want that. We're like, we want to find that person that we can't live without. I am actually said that. I like I know. I have like for sure.

Dr. Sara | Yeah. Oh. So it's like it is really and then that opens the door for all sorts of fallacies. Like, for example, we talk about Don't you love me? You should have known that tonight. I wanted salad but not a steak. Don't you love me? No, I didn't know that. I don't know your digestive system doing what is doing tonight? And you know, we might be laughing about it. But I swear to God, these are the things that I hear from my couples.

Robin | Oh, yes.

Dr. Sara | That Don't you love me? You should? Yes, there are certain things that I need to know.

Robin | If you loved me you would do this, yeah.

Dr. Sara | Yeah, while back in I was in an interview, they asked me about a Tiktok phenomenon. For example, if you ask your partner to bring you orange, if he doesn't peel it for you, they don't love you. And I'm sitting here thinking, oh, wow, if I based my marriage based on that I would have divorced my husband, maybe 200 times by now.

Robin | Yes

Dr. Sara | It's not. It's a very interesting just reductionist approach to this, this nuanced, beautiful dance that we are having in a relationship. Yeah. So yeah, the beginning of my relationship when I met my husband, I felt like okay, so we have a lot in common, we can talk we can add very logically, everything and I'm attracted to him. So everything Check, check, check, check, check. So I felt like this submergent love that we are talking about for people who haven't read the book, there are diagrams that I use to bring the message home. So for example, if you think that how many of us grew up with this mentality that two people are living their life doing their own business, and then come together spend time money, resources and attention and the all of those resources, right, and then together and then when you fall in love, then is a very good time for you to go to the next step. Whatever that next step is for you cohabit live together have like to have a baby together, marry whatever your next step is, right. And then then what? If you stay there that will become a cohabitation. In a sense that you will create codependency out of that cohabitation. And then you are going to lose parts of you that you are going to struggle for the rest of your life to find and to patch together again, you forget who you were. Many of my couples who come to me after affair, they've been in those relationships that because they lost themselves so much. They didn't know who they are. So when they saw somebody who saw something in them that resonated, that they lost along the way, they really yearn for finding that piece again. So they broke off and went with them. That's just one example. Right? Yeah. So that from that submergent, here's what I'm offering, the two people come together. So if submergent in is one plus one equals one, how about if we think of it this way, that one plus one equals three. So with the six ingredients that I introduce in the book, if those six ingredients are present, and in constant interaction with each other, then love will be emergent. As the byproduct of a thriving relationship, not the purpose of it, not the goal of it, not the pace of it, none of that a byproduct of it, it's a huge change in the mentality that we have.

Robin | It is. So let's talk about the six ingredients, the six pillars of

Dr. Sara | Sure

Robin | Of emergent love.

Dr. Sara | Sure so one of the reasons I actually call them ingredients is one of the things that I learned over the years and also from the research is, every day and every season in your relationship, you need more or less of these ingredients, all of them, they have to be there. People ask me, can I have this and that? Can I please? No. Non negotiable.

Robin | Yeah, so the, so all of those ingredients have to be there. But there are different proportions at different times?

Dr. Sara | Absolutely. Absolutely. So the first one again, in no particular order, because they need to be there all of them, right? The first one is attraction. Why do you want to be around the other person. And that changes over time, if anybody is listening, and they've been in any kind of relationship, they know that. And all of these things that I talk about in love and relationships, this is the exact principle that I teach in corporate in schools, every parenting courses, anything. So why do you want to be around these people or that person specifically? Right? So that's that, and you change, they change all that. The second one is respect. Respect, if you go to the Latin origin of the word is to see and to see again, meaning that I'm constantly paying attention to you, your priorities, what matters to you. And at the heart of respect is I need to be respectable respect from you. Right? Many people come to me and say, my partner doesn't respect me. And I asked them, are you respectable? They're like, well, what do you mean?

Robin | Right? You give them

Dr. Sara | Everything is reciprocal.

Robin | Oh, it sure is.

Dr. Sara | So that's important, right. So with respect, also, we need to talk about boundaries. A lot of the trendy talk out there talks about boundary as shutting the other person off. This is being passive aggressive people. This is not healthy boundary. Boundary, you know when you do it, right, when you know that you can actually insert your boundaries in loving and firm way. That's healthy boundary lovingly and firmly, if you don't have that you're passive aggressive. So that's that with respect. And then trust. For trust. We have different varieties. As soon as you say trust, the question is who slept with whom? That's just one aspect of it. Right

Robin | Trusting that you're going to say what you're going to do, right? Trusting that you're going to honor you know, just your commitments, and right Trust has so many so many aspects to it.

Dr. Sara | Exactly. Social trust, financial trust, bodily trust. So many things like I have clients who come and say, well, you know, I don't want to, I don't feel close to my partner. And when I go to the depth of it with them, they talk about how everything that they share in the privacy of their couple bubble is shared with the mother in law and tomorrow with a friend and somebody's boss and their children. And so that's a breach of trust.

Robin | Yes.

Dr. Sara | Equally hurtful.

Robin | Yes. Really is.

Dr. Sara | Right. So these are the things right? So with trust comes commitment. And with commitment, what I mean is, what are you committed to wait for it, when you don't feel like it? When you're happy, chappy in love with each other, it's very easy to keep the commitment. What are you committed to when you don't feel like it? So that's a piece that is important.

Robin | So can you kind of example, can you give an example of how that shows up in a relationship where they're not okay, they say I'm committed to you as my partner, but when shit goes down, it They're showing behaviors that are not commitment, like how does that? Can you just give an example of what you see?

Dr. Sara | Yes so we trust, trust, I break it down into two elements, consistency and reliability, right. So if you're consistently showing up, we do your best behavior that shows your commitment. For example, if we are in the worst argument of our lives, you still don't say that you're rubbish, I'm gonna leave you. I'm gonna just not look at you. And you you like the character assassination, you know, so you don't go there. This is this, this is the person that you wake up next to tomorrow. So these are the things that I'm talking about, like the variable, breach of the like assassination of the character, or saying things that you can't really take back. Like in Far East, we have a thing we say, when you spill the water, you can get it back in English, we say when spilled milk, for example, right? So these are the things that you know, when you also, you know, speaking different languages helps, at least for me, because I feel like when you see that there are certain sayings around trust and commitment around that breach of trust, breach of commitment, that are said in different languages and cultures in one way or the other. You know, that that's basic human need. Basic human right.

Robin | Right. Being said in different ways, in different languages across the world. So we

Dr. Sara | Exactly

Robin | That is a basic need.

Dr. Sara | Yes. So like a common common ground right. So that is that trust and commitment. The other one is compassion. Many people, well, the normal human behavior, if you are socially equipped with healthy social status, and social well being of yourself to be able to give to the other is you come to me and say, Sara you know, today, I was actually coming the traffic was terrible. My mind immediately goes to my memory of that incident, if I had it or not, I'm trying to relate. Relating is a very healthy human behavior that we do. Sometimes we over relate to the point that I steal your thunder, I steal your story it becomes mine. Right. Are you had the traffic? Let me tell you about mine last week, right? Hello, hang on there, it was about me, I was coming to, you know, get some winning situation going here. So get some validation or affirmation from you, and you just stole my thunder. So that's over relating. The other thing that I talked about in compassion, and chapter is, a lot of us talk about empathy and compassion, and sympathy, and empathy, all of those Instagram words. But one of the things that is important for people, first of all, to know who is defining these terminologies and the behavior that goes with it, because depending on the discipline that the person comes from, they might define it a little bit differently. For me, I studied the neurobiology of the brain, I study, like how the brain mapping and bring lighting works, when a person is in an empathic phase, or in simpathic phase or in compassion phase. And also in the relational science space, the way that I would like to define it for my clients, is compassion is when I show up for you without making it about me. So if you come to me, and you say you're bleeding, I'm coming and say, oh, does it hurt? Do you need a band aid? How can I show up for you right now? It's not about me, I might be bleeding, but it's not about me, right? Yes. Empathy in these situations is you come and say, I'm bleeding. Oh, my God, you're bleeding. You're bleeding. Oh, my God, you're bleeding. So it becomes my bleeding to the point that nobody gets the band aid. Nobody's helping nobody. And then you have to bleed and also come save me. Right? Because now it's about me.

Robin | You give an example in your book about this doctor Sara where a woman says to her husband, I can no longer come to you with my stuff. My stressors are my worries. Because every time it's like, you take it on, and it's like, and then you're you're hurting. You're oh, it's like, right. And she's like, so there's a lot of ingredients that are getting messed up in here, right? Yes, she no longer coming and disclosing her pain to her partner who, one of her closest people and because she's lost trust in the fact that she can't trust him with her deepest pain, even little pains. Because that's so that that's the empathy compassion piece. It's kind of right so I just the way you're explaining this makes perfect sense.

Dr. Sara | I'm glad, because look, another thing that I know that we are also recording visually, so maybe this can help people as well. Compassion is this I know where I stand, I can click responsibility to hold on to my nervous system and regulate myself while extending a hand to help you. Right? This is compassionate, not coldness. Because some because some people say, Well, this call does not actually cold because in everyday interaction, you want a partner who is responsible for their own nervous system. Otherwise you are this Clombi like a thingy like a submergent in a codependent. Right? So that's important. But empathy is this.

Robin | Let me take some of your load.

Dr. Sara | Exactly and I'm feeling with you, right.

Robin | Yes

Dr. Sara | So I can't really show up with you. I have to also put a caveat here sometimes in the coupledom you need to commiserate. I'm not talking about those incidences, like, for example, I have couples that are very difficult children, or they have they lost a dear one, or there's a health diagnosis that comes in and sometimes we are sinking together. And for those, couples actually have a thing I say soak together so you don't sink together. So I say sit in a bathtub together.

Robin | Love that soak together so you don't sink together, it's good. So you're saying so you're saying in those examples, like let's say that you you do have you there's a diagnosis, okay, somebody is diagnosed in a coupledom in your family with cancer, okay, that's, that's very painful for the person that goes was diagnosed as well as the person that loves them so dearly. So you suggest like doing a physical act like soaking in a bad time together. Or, like cry, cry together as like, I'm feeling like, I'm right here for you. And this is sad for both of us and like so that empathy empathy is not like an it is, it can be a very healthy, healthy emotion. Right?

Dr. Sara | Exactly. But on a daily basis, I would lead I would lead with compassion.

Robin | Exactly this is great, exactly. I get it. Okay.

Dr. Sara | Another area for couples that empathy will work very beautifully is erotic empathy, when they are feeling with each other in that moment in time, not for everybody. But that is the space that you can really freely express and experience, empathy, but in other areas of life on a daily basis, please, I beg of you to go with compassion, because you want to be there for each other, not with each other all the time.

Robin | I just love it. So I really want to I want to give you another just an example from my own life before we go on about this, because

Dr. Sara | Let's go.

Robin | I'm with a man who showed me this exact example in a very compassionate way. And I was expecting empathy. And so if there was a security issue in my home, and I freaked out, like I was like, oh, no, like, I just felt like, oh, like my security in my home was compromised. And I called the security company in and you know, later on and told them, even though I'm still freaking out, angry, anxious about the situation. And he was like, okay, it sounds like you got everything under control. Like, that's great, good. But I was still freaking out. And I was expecting a different reaction, like, just like, and then he said, if you want me, I'm right here, I'll come over and then me. I'm going like, No, I'm fine. But in the meantime, like thinking you know, but he was holding his ground, being there for me in a very compassionate way. But I was expecting everything. So that's a great example of like,

Dr. Sara | Yes. And can I just build on that?

Robin | Yeah.

Dr. Sara | I just was called to a conflict resolution meeting at a company. Do you know what the issue was?

Robin | Security?

Dr. Sara | No. Everyday. There was a woman coming upstairs with a heavy box in the office. A gentleman goes and says, let me help you. And as he's saying it, he grabs the box and carries it. And he was sued by the woman.

Robin | Oh, my. She didn't ask for help.

Dr. Sara | Agist. Exactly. Agist, sexist, all of that. And how could you do that to me, and the man was gobsmacked. He was like, well, that I assumed that I was being loving and caring. I did. You You were out of breath. That's what I thought. So for your partner. Hopefully, we develop these, especially women because we learned not to ask for what we need. Right me included. It's very important for us to also say that no, actually. You know, you're asking me to come by I want to say no, but parts of me says yes. And I can't make a decision. So at least give them something to work with. Because if your partner just shows up at your door, he's pushy love bombing you. He's like, you know, we have all sorts of other things going on,

Robin | You know, what I could have done in that instance, you know, hindsight is 20-20. What I could have done is said, like, you know, what, I really would love for you to come over, and just be with me, you know, because I, it was a hard day, and, but I didn't, I'm the strong, independent one that, you know, decided not to, and then kind of felt a little bit like, but that's not that's not that's not on me for not speaking, and being honest about what I really needed and what I wanted. So there you go.

Dr. Sara | Yeah the other thing is, the world is so confusing, especially for heterosexual couples, as the example that I gave, men really don't know how to show up. And my male clients are so confused. They really don't know what to do, when they are all the way. A lot of their partners cheat, because they disrespect them because they are sissies and they are too emotionally involved, or you know what, that and when they are not, then they are accused of not being present not being they're not reading their mind. So it's a very, it's very tricky business right now. So the conclusion of that, who want to give people some good voice, hopefully, not good, maybe just effective advice is, it's nice to guess for our partners, like, for example, in that bleeding situation, or that security situation that you brought, I really would love to carry the box, I would love to come over to hold you at least the least I can do for you. Would you be okay with that? So these things we can offer? Right? So from both sides, and then from your side, you can say, well, you know what, I'm not sure what you can do. But I I feel like I can use your embrace.

Robin | Aww, I see. You're so loving and honest. It's just so great. Yes. Okay, so the last one, which I think obviously loving behaviors. This is there's so many ways that we show up. So please talk about that.

Dr. Sara | Sure. So the one before that is actually shared vision,

Robin | Of course, shared vision

Dr. Sara | This has different different areas, right, shared visions, and shared vision determines where your priorities are. And then you have to commit to put your seed resources behind those. So you can just say that, I want this and that, oh, yeah, I want that too. And then in real life, you will see that the resources are going somewhere else, actually, are you really sharing this vision with me. And also, shared vision is not just having a baby or traveling or whatnot, there are very specific areas that I introduced in the book like geographical and spiritual, physiological, all of those need to be discussed, so that you have that deep understanding from one another's needs to be able to show up with matters otherwise. But a lot of people say I do so much work on my relationship, why is it not working? I'm doomed. Like no, if we can just attract your resources to this bar, it will work. So that that piece of it. And last but not least, the loving behaviors. My editor actually asked me if the whole book is about love, what is the business of having a chapter on it? So loving behavior, it love manifests through each experiences that we have with it and expressions of it. And the person who perceives and receives it is also very important because my loving behavior might be not perceived or received by you as such. So that's why in chapter three, I'm talking about the individuals like what is your love blueprint? So getting to know yourself, you know, in the relationship?

Robin | Yeah. And you compare this to how you know there is there has been so much about Gary Chapman's book the love languages, right? And how but you're saying because I understand this where a lot of us have read that book and understood we know our love languages. And it's important that we understand our partner's love languages but so it's knowing ours knowing our love blueprint and how we want to you talk about into me first and then into you like intimacy into me I see and then into you I see right I got so much out of this book, Dr. Sara I'm telling you. So it's but it's very important that we know how we want to be loved. And communicate that to our partners and to people we love right? And then understand how do you want to be loved because otherwise, we could be missing like, you know, we're missing each other in the dark like and there's exactly what you're saying. And you have all these couples that say, like, I do so much for my partner, I just don't get it like I do this. I do that I do, like I show up in this way. And here he's going, are they is going? Yeah, but you're missing the point like I those aren't the things that I really need or want from you. I need this.

Dr. Sara | Yes. Yes. And that's where we talk about Golden Rule versus Platinum Rule, golden rule that many of us grew up with do to others as you would like to be done to you. Misleading, right,

Robin | Yeah

Dr. Sara | Well, that's level one, let's put it this way. Level one level two, more complex and more maybe mature way of in the relational space is the platinum rule. Do to others as they want you to do to them. That's important. Because like with the loving behaviors, the way that I define them, is tenderness, through touch and words, is specialness. How do you make the other person feel special? If I want to make you special, I don't just come and say, Robin, maybe you're my Robbie, maybe you are my so something, something there that makes you feel special, nobody else does that it's a nickname. It's a way that I look at you, it's a way that I touch you. So is that a specific specificity. And then the other one for loving behavior is I give you benefit of the doubt, I assume the best.

Robin | That's so important, right.

Dr. Sara | So important.

Robin | Oh yeah

Dr. Sara | Benefit of the doubt. And the other one is, so the tenderness benefit of the doubt. And going out of my way for you. These are the ones that will show that you have this special space in my life. And not like everybody else. That is you know, in my lap, and that is the piece that dies. Over time many people talk about my spark died, my this and that died. These are the things that die first, and then the spark dies, of course,

Robin | Oh my gosh yes, if you were going to talk about the spark. It's like these are all the things that in the beginning of relationship, like the honeymoon phase that people are doing for each other and giving to each other, right? And then by those behaviors are no longer carried. They're not like a daily like, right? Of course it sparks dying. The attractions dying.

Dr. Sara | Absolutely.

Robin | And so it is it is a little things day to day, like just moment by moment that really matter. Like and these are not complicated. Like you're saying, like I love the examples that are just like, these are so easy and tangible. It's like, you wake up in the morning and you look at your partner and you say, Good morning. That's not hard.

Dr. Sara | I swear to god that that baffles me like I have couples that like for example, I do the sessions, right? Or the when I was at the office, I'm starting the session with somebody who didn't or waiting for the other person to arrive from work or you know, they're late to the session. They come they don't even say hello to each other. They just straight look at me, like, would you like to take a second to acknowledge that another human just entered the room? So can you just look up say hello. And from where I'm coming from, to be honest. It's so disrespectful.

Robin | Yes

Dr. Sara | Somebody enters the room. And that's also cultural, I have to say, huge cultural and you know, I talk to younger clients, teenagers, and a lot of them feel unseen. They don't say hello to their parents. They don't get the hello back. They don't say goodnight to one another. So there's no coming together as a family as people who share household with each other. How are we creating the sense of belonging and loving relationships around us? So simple things matter? A lot?

Robin | Yes.

Dr. Sara | That's why those examples in the book.

Robin | Yeah. One of the other great reminders, and I think this is all about a paradigm as well, that we have to remember. And coming out of this submergent model to the emerging model is that we are constantly changing, and how important it is to stay connected and honor that I'm changing as a person, and you're changing as a person. You're not the person that I married, right that people people say that right, like in your office, like I don't know what happened, but the person I married? You're like, of course not like it's been 10,15, 20 years and I'm definitely not the same person that I was those years ago. I'm I'm growing just like you are my beliefs have changed. I mean, I'm now a mother. I wasn't before. Like I've got this career that I wasn't like so there's honoring that in each other.

Dr. Sara | Absolutely. And keeping in touch, there's a whole chapter yes, that I say check in and checkups. That's extremely important. And I give exercises for a daily check in for a weekly check in monthly check in and while check in. So these are the ones that you know when when people look at me that's one of the things that really made me frustrated. When, for example with my husband and I we went somewhere I'd say Oh, you're so lucky. But luck that has nothing to do with this.

Robin | Very intentional.

Dr. Sara | Very intentional, it's hard work.

Robin | Yes.

Dr. Sara | But it's just a matter of, again, people say, oh, you know, natural relationships need to come to us naturally. Or when love is in place, everything follows. Yes. Be loving. That's amazing. But also there are certain things that you need to do. If you want to be fit. Do you just say I love my body? It will follow? No

Robin | Of course not. You're committed. Yep. All those things exercise you work at it. And the same. Yes. So like an example. There's so many great examples. But you and your husband do always oy's and joys, right? Yes. That's a daily thing. And again, this is simple. This is a simple exercise that people can do. And I love I love it even just to do with my kit, my kids, give me your oy's and joys for today. And you start with the oy's like, Oh, these are the really crappy things that happened. It could have been just a minor thing, right? And then what were the joys so and you're getting like, you're, you're like yesterday, I interviewed Topaz Adizes. And he is the writer of the 12 questions. And he, so he asks us all to ask better questions, so that we can have deeper conversations. And I think just having an example of oy's and joys as a ritual in your relationship gives you an opportunity, like just tell me what was the crap and what was the good today? Right?

Dr. Sara | Yes. And did you know that in families that you do that they have lower level of self self harm for the children.

Robin | Wow

Dr. Sara | Lowered because this connection, that lack of sense of belonging, nobody cares, who cares what I'm what I'm going through. And the reason I say oy, first joy. Second, or is something that you know, people think, if they share big experiences is wonderful. But look, even in the same household with me, my husband, and my child, and my, this person, that person, everybody's exposed to different things throughout the day. It's not at 50 years ago, that we watch the same TV show, we had the same language, we had the same cultural literacy, we are all experiencing the world very differently. If we lose those moments of sharing with each other, and please don't make it like a big conversation every night, because that's exhausting. And nobody wants the chore of it. But just the five minutes check in over dinner table, hopefully, if you miss dinner, because of different schedules, you can just come together, and just before bed, just to check in. And oy goes first because brain has the capacity to follow and, uh, you know, continue the processing, with the last thing that you had a conversation with, right. So so when you do oy and then you do joy and you walk away from the experience, you're more likely to stay with the processing of the joyful part, rather than the negative part. And these are the things that will keep us together rather, like a lot of people think couples fall apart because of cheating, or, you know, sleeping with somebody else does not actually, majority of couples fall apart first. So they drift apart, not for that not to happen, you need to check in on a daily basis and weekly basis, in all of those exercises that I give with the topics that matter, you know,

Robin | You have to be continuously connecting you to stay in your connection. And I think that's what I really liked the that the exercise the oy's and joys because it's different than saying, how was your day? That's not specific, like you're not gonna get like I asked my kids that after school. Tell me about your day. That was fine. Well, that was a shitty question. Because I got a real,ly like, it's like the answer is always the same. It's like, like you're making you're doing the same thing. It's like a different results. No wrong, I need to change my approach. So that I'm getting more like, because I want to know, like I'm asked, I'm not just asking, I'm asking out of love, but it's like I'm asking the wrong question. We're in the wrong context here.

Dr. Sara | Right. So you said context, actually, I want to come in if it I know that we might be drilling a little bit. But again, details matter. That for kids, a lot of us as soon as we pick up our kids, we say how was your day, and majority of times they're sitting in the backseat, some people say this is better, because they're not eye to eye with you. I disagree. Because when my child sits beside me, I get a lot out of him. He feels you know, more equitable. So depending on different children. The other thing is right before children go to sleep, when they are relaxed without distraction of the day, that's the best time to get to their head. Just sit by their bed and say hey, let's do our oy and joy. How was how was it for you? Oy joy, and then you're sharing and if they have issues you prompt them with the energy they received during the day or gave and the five senses. Was there something that you saw that brought you joy, and you smell, anything you ate brought you joy. So little by little, little by little dependent, that it doesn't matter. Like what age they are, they will open up and they will have those conversations. And there's also science behind it because the brain is at a capacity that can go deeper. And that time of the day.

Robin | That's beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Okay, before we and we have like, a little bit of time, because I want to get back to the attraction piece. Because there's so many people like that are coming to you. And you can say like, I am just not attracted to this person anymore. It's not even a spark. It's just like, I no like, I've lost it all. Like, what are we going to do? Right? I love them. But I'm totally not attracted to them anymore. Yeah, so how are you, how are you helping people get back to that place is through all of these things, right? Like, this is what we're talking about. It's

Dr. Sara | Yes

Robin | Employing all these six ingredients again, and like, where are you missing the mark?

Dr. Sara | Let's talk about that a little bit, like through that lens of, again, you know, I know that we use the same same terminology that we read elsewhere, like attraction respect, yeah, I know that I know that. But hopefully, these are new definitions that we are offering. When we talk about attraction in the context of emergent love, we're talking about different types of attraction. Unfortunately, our general culture is all about trauma these days. I'm not dismissing anybody's trauma. God knows I had my own share with them. But the thing is, look, when you are only sharing that my father was terrible. My mother was like this nanananana. So this is like a trauma bonding that you have with each other. And from the beginning of the relationship all the way through, right. But how about once in a while share, what are you proud of?

Robin | Yeah

Dr. Sara | The roles in your life that you are very proud of

Robin | So maker, let this was a this is a great one. So you want to make a list of things that you are proud of about yourself and your life. And as your partner, you do that individually and then share. And then you're like, then that person can be like, oh, yeah, like, I'm, yes

Dr. Sara | Yes. And that is the person that you're actually inviting. To go deeper with you into me, I see here are the things that matter to me right now, this moment in time. And into me, you see, then I invite you to see those parts, where a lot of couples who drift apart. When I asked them, I have intake questionnaires. And also I put couples through the RPR relationship panoramic inventory, which is the 360 degree review of a coupledom. It's a validated inventory. So when the inventory comes to me, it's like 28 pages. And I looked through the book is really interesting, sometimes even as simple as the question at the beginning of the, how long have you been together? One person says seven years, one person says eight years. Yeah, that's interesting to me.

Robin | Right

Dr. Sara | What marked the beginning of your relationship from each perspective, right. Or the different perceptions that they have about, so do you respect your partner? Yes. 100%. And then the other person said, there's a question that asks, Are you respected by your partner? 30%? Okay, what is this?

Robin | Where's the gap? Major gap.

Dr. Sara | So exactly. So when we are talking about attraction, it's important. What is it about me, that makes me very special to you? Why do you want to be around me? I hear this so many times in my sessions that do you even like me? Right? Do you even see me? By right?

Robin | And because because you're not, you're missing? You're you're not seeing you're actually wanting me to be that you'll give an example about this couple where, you know, she started as a bartender, and he was, like, heavy into his careers. But he valued the fact that like, she was so fun. And just like, you know, together, they would just be having a blast, right?

Dr. Sara | Yes

Robin | And now in their marriage. I mean, she is in school, getting her master's, and he still, you know, but he's wanting that fun, girl back fun woman. And she's like, that's not where I'm at right now. Like, I don't want to be partying at the bars and hanging out with strangers. I want to be home focused on my career, and my family and friends in our spare time. And that's what's what I'm proud of. And you're not seeing how well I'm doing because I feel good about things. Right. And he wants the old woman back. So

Dr. Sara | Yes

Robin | You've really missed the mark, right?

Dr. Sara | Yes, yes. Or, for example, new parents, they really struggle because they want the old person back. I have so many people in my practice that they they've been together, raise children together and then now they go with somebody else outside the marriage or outside their relationship, which is the younger version of the person that they had. So it shows that sense of loss They are they are experiencing in their relationship and that's painful to witness. So it is important to keep in touch with one another. And also, let me also say something here. If you're listening to us, it doesn't mean that you have to stay and make it work. Sometimes also, you need to accept that you grew apart, you grew to the point that you really don't have much in common. If you look at all of these six ingredients, and you feel like you know what, I have one, but not the rest, or I have this and this and this, but not that, then that becomes a very valid choice for you to say, can I live without it? Right? How am I defining this? So,yeah, it's, but if you really are in a relationship, or looking for a relationship, I really highly recommend that people especially start with the first part of the book book for people who are dating. And also go through all of those nuggets that I give for the examples. And hopefully it will give you some insight as when you go out what to look for. Like, there's so many people who come and say, I was attracted to your, as you mentioned, like life liveliness and, or I was attracted to your finances. And now the guy stopped working. Or finances don't matter to me anymore. Because I've been there done that and traveled the world and nannanana now, you know, I had all the means that it doesn't really matter to me, then I act outgrew my own point of attraction. And these are honest conversations to be had. Yes, with oneself.

Robin | And I really appreciate

Dr. Sara | I'm attracted to?

Robin | Yes I appreciate the rawness of what you shared in the book around what your clients were saying to each other or thinking, oh, those are vulnerable community community had the way they're communicating to each other because they're in your office, because well, they're feeling like, there's a lot of things that we need to fix here. Like otherwise, it's, we're not going down the right road. Or maybe not to get down different roads. So yeah, I just, I loved your book, Dr. Sara, I hope everybody reads it. Love by Design, really, I'm going to I'm going to be turning I'm gonna be I'm talking to my boyfriend about this. And like, because it's like one of those ones you just want to re-open to do like do the exercises together. Because it really you get to know each other on such a deep heart level. And that's really important.

Dr. Sara | That warms my heart. Really that's why I wrote it. Yeah, it's and also on that note, I actually want to tell people something on the website of the book, I put some resources that they can just freely download. It's not a like, I just made worksheets for people that they can just go and get.

Robin | And it's called lovebydesignbook.com.

Dr. Sara | Yes, it's called lovebydesignbook.com.

Robin | Exactly. Okay, great. So we'll make sure you've got your website and getting the resources and they can take the 360 panoramic

Dr. Sara | Relationship panoramic they can take that too

Robin | There's a lot of things on your website. There's so many so many great resources. So we always close with a blessing. And this blessing is for everybody listening. And this is from your words, Dr. Sara. So may we cultivate thriving relationships by choosing daily to act in ways that will strengthen our bonds and always allow ourselves to flourish. May we create and sustain partnerships that are based on a solid foundation of attraction, respect, trust, shared vision, compassion, and being loving. And may we set an intention to take an active role in creating the love we desire and deserve. So thank you Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh

Dr. Sara | Amen. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, thank you Robin

Robin | Such a beautiful time with you. Thank you.

Dr. Sara | Likewise. Thank you