Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 9 Episode 12 with Dr. Sue Varma | Transcript
26.06.25
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Robin Ducharme | Welcome to Let's Talk. Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas and expert insights. Every week, our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships, and they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate, we tackle the big questions, not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host. Robin Ducharme, now let's talk. Love. Hello everyone. Welcome to Let's Talk Love. I'm Robin Ducharme, your host, and today we are going to have an excellent conversation with Dr Sue Varma. Dr Sue, I'm so glad that you were able to be with me today. So thank you very much for your time.
Dr. Sue Varma | Absolutely. It's such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for having me.
Robin Ducharme | We're going to be talking about something that you know I live in my everyday life is optimism. And you have written this amazing book, Dr Sue, I just really want to say how much I loved your book, and I really appreciate your work, and your book is called Practical Optimism. So I'm excited to dive right into that. But first, I just wanted to tell our listeners about you. You are a board-certified psychiatrist in private practice and a clinical assistant professor of psychiatry at New York University. And I wanted to read from the jacket of your book a little bit more about you as the pioneering Medical Director and attending psychiatrist of the World Trade Center Mental Health Program, you played a critical role in supporting civilian and first responder survivors in the aftermath of the tragic events of 911 in your interactions with people from various walks of life, you've witnessed the full spectrum of stress and trauma, from devastation and stagnation to remarkable resilience and growth. And you became intrigued by how some individuals don't just survive but thrive. And you say in your book, flourish. I love that word too, despite facing immense challenges. And you wondered, how can we navigate stress better, by taking control of certain aspects of our lives. And, you know, when I read that, I was like, and you talk about this a lot in your book, around like, these are unprecedented times that we're in, that we're all living in. This world is so full of uncertainty and scary shit going on all around us, like, you know, with the world leaders. I mean, we can go on and on about that, but I think just, you know, when it, when it comes down to it, it's like our foundation as human beings is not stable, the ground we are when we're living on. And so how do we what I really loved about your book, what I really appreciate is the practical part of like, how do we employ, what schools or skills can we bring on board, on our lifeboats, like you say, so that we can cope with what the heck is all the uncertainty, all the stuff that we cannot control in this, in the life, lives that we're living?
Dr. Sue Varma | Yes and thank you so much for what you're saying. And I so appreciate your sentiments, because that's exactly it. And I feel like if someone were to ask me, what are the skills that are needed in, you know, for this, like our youngest generations, to thrive, it really is staying agile, nimble and flexible. You know,
Robin | Flexiable
Dr. Sue Varma | I think, one of the hallmarks of resilience, of practical optimism and, honestly, just good mental health in general. So what that means is like being open to what is happening around you, being receptive if it's something that you want, but really like being able to be flexible with what every day brings, whatever the challenges are like, and being ready and willing to understand and appreciate and accept that challenges are inherently part of life. And I think one of the biggest mistakes that we're making as parents is trying to protect our kids too much and trying to shield them too much. And that comes with its own sort of set of challenges. I think that, you know, when we grow up in the you know, depending on when you grow up, 70s, 80s, 90s, like, you know, parents weren't that involved. And I'm not saying that that is how it should be, but I feel like the pendulum has swung so far in the other direction that we're so scared as parents, we're so anxious, that we're really trying to shield our kids from, you know, the day to day stuff that made us tough, that made us resilient. So it's about finding that happy medium of accepting and understanding and acknowledging that life was never meant to be easy, and while we are definitely experiencing unprecedented challenges. The problem is the pro the challenges are constantly evolving and changing rapidly, especially with AI, and so the demands and the input and the stimulation are coming at us at such a rapid speed, and lot of it is really good, the technology and the advancements that we're making, but our brain was never evolved to process this kind of information at this speed, at this level. So what we're really lacking is community and things and coping skills that would normally sort of buffer us in times of stress. So the stresses are new and challenging, and we don't know what they're bringing, but then we don't also have a strong enough foundation, as you had said, and that really is what practical optimism is about. Is saying we're living in a world that is rapidly changing, and how do we bring ourselves back home? How do we create some semblance of an anchor and a safe base, if you will?
Robin | Yes, and your book is just so full of the skills that we can all learn. That's the thing that was another great learning for me this week while reading your book is around optimism, is like, I believe that I'm naturally optimistic, but I'm like, and I was talking to my my friend about this Kirsten, and when we work on the podcast together, I'm like, was I always an optimist? I can't remember never not being one. But like, how did that come about? And I think that, you know, a lot of it had to do with the modeling I was shown by my dad, for sure, was a total optimist, and I'm thinking, but it's a practice. You can learn how to be an optimist.
Dr. Sue | Yes, yes.
Robin | Can you touch us about what a practical optimist is? What is it, there's a nuance there.
Dr. Sue | Yes, no. And I'm so glad you brought that up. And you know, it's one of the reasons why we never really studied optimism, because we just always thought that it was something that you were, like, inherently either born with, or that you weren't, and that there wasn't much more to it. And if you like, wore a glass half empty, you know, and skewed naturally pessimistic, you're like, well, that's just the way that I am. And it's like, okay, no, let's look at that for a second. And the reality is that not all optimism is good and not all pessimism is bad, right? So like, the extreme optimist is like something, what we call the ostrich effect, of like, burying your head in the sand and then just assuming and hoping wishful thinking that the problem will just disappear, right. So I'll give you an example of that, of like extreme optimism or blind optimism. So let's say the doctor says, you know, we did your annual visit, and the couple of things that I'm maybe a little bit concerned about, you know, please come back and do a follow up with me. Like, just, I'm sure everything's fine, but let's just, you know, be careful. The extreme optimist will hear that as the doctor said, everything is fine. Like, Doctor, you worry too much. Or they'll tell their family members, who are like, how come you never followed up on that? And they'll be like, You worry too much. Doctor said it was fine. You're reading into it. So the extreme optimist either won't make their annual appointment to begin with, because they just think everything is fine, because everything should be fine, everything was fine in the past, or they won't follow up with their doctor's recommendations, that's the extreme. The extreme pessimist, on the other hand, might become paralyzed with that same information, and the doctor said that there's something wrong. Oh, my God, I don't want to follow up. So they have a lot of patients who have health anxiety, and they're really worried about what an annual mammogram or colonoscopy might show. Even in the absence of any negative information, they start to ruminate. They catastrophize the what if the projecting negative things, and they end up becoming passive as a result. So you can see these two extremes don't do anything because one thing's the extreme, everything's fine. Extreme of optimism, extreme of pessimism. Pessimists think that everything won't be fine, and so neither one of them act. And what you want to do is actually marry the best of pessimism, and believe it or not, small doses of pessimism, healthy skepticism is actually good. Pessimists do their research. They're more thorough in their analysis. And you want to marry a little bit of healthy skepticism with action. And so I always say, the optimists build the planes, but the pessimists build the parachutes. And we need both, right. And that's what practical optimism is. It's like, okay, you want to do some skydiving, great, but you need, like, you want to jump off a plane, okay, do it right. We want you to be proactive. We want you to take excitement, adventure and risk, but we also want you to be prepared. So it's a little bit of both, and there is a genetic component, like you had said, like, you know, you mentioned that you're an optimist, and maybe you were born this way. And the interesting thing is that we found out, you know, in about 2011 UCLA researchers found that there is a gene that potentially codes for optimism, and it's the oxytocin receptor gene. So if you were born with it, and about 25% of people you know, are born naturally genetically optimistic, and the rest of us, though, aren't. So that means that three quarters of people are not born optimistic. And so what that told me was, first of all, what does this gene do? And what the gene did was code for skills, you know, like social skills, emotional regulation skills, being proactive, being a good problem solver. And I was like, you know, if these are skills, and skills could be taught, because I was already doing this in therapy with my patients. But then I was like, why is it that we wait for the other shoe to drop? Right. Like most people are not going to enter into therapy, just for the fun of it. They're gonna go when things have broken down. But I was like, let's back up. If these are skills, number one, they're teachable. And number two, all people should have access to them, and they should have access at a very young age. So actually, my publisher was looking at, how do we get this to college students, you know, and Penguin Random House has put this on their website for educational purposes, for colleges to order. How do we get life skills to people younger and younger? So that's really how I look at this, is that some of us are born. Aren't genetically optimistic, the others aren't, and that there's real value to it. And we can talk about, what are the benefits? Because the second question that most people are like, first of all, this sounds very Woo, woo, and not scientific enough. So I'm like, No, there is science, and there's a lot of benefits. So, like, that's the whole other thing. Is, why invest in it, you know? And their head to toe benefit.
Robin | Of course, there is. I, I can't imagine living my life, not as someone that looks for the good and looks for the beauty in life because, you know, I do say it out loud to everybody around me, my children, and just, you know, on a regular basis, like life is so hard, like life is so challenging, we have to look for the goodness in it. And it's almost like looking like the silver lining. There's, there's, there is very like, most of the time there's a silver lining, right?
Dr. Sue | Yes, and it's so, you know, it's so interesting. I love that you say that because it's training your brain. It's so small things of shifting to be like, what is, what is the good part of my day? You know, like, let's say some catastrophe happened, like you had a flat tire and that got you late to your appointment, but then somebody stopped and helped you, you know, so like, you could choose to focus on the fact that your whole day was derailed. You didn't make it to your appointment. Maybe you let people down as a result of the flat tire, but then you also saw the kindness in strangers, and that made you believe in humanity again, right? So, like, it forces your brain to reframe the same negative situation and say, well, what, you know, what came out of this? Or, you know, think of opportunities that maybe didn't work out first, that we really wanted at the time, or relationships, like a first boyfriend, you know, a girlfriend or, you know, and then you're looking back and you're like, Thank God, I dodged a bullet there. You know, whether it was a job or a romantic relationship or even a friendship. So I love that, and I'm curious to hear from you if we have time, like, if you could give me an example in your own life, because I love hearing how people practice optimism. Because even if you're not naturally born this way, it's something you're doing on a regular basis that's helping you be positive.
Robin | Yeah, you're right. I am. I was thinking of the example of I went to my best friends. One of my best friend's mom just passed away, and so I was at a funeral on Wednesday, just two days ago, a celebration of her life. And years ago, my twin passed away, and then two years later, my dad passed away, very suddenly. And what I was remembering on Wednesday during is just how beautiful those days were. You think it's going to be the saddest day? You know this,you know the funeral is the worst day. But actually, it wasn't because I could just see like the love and the stories, all the outpouring of support and care that I was being held in from the people around us that loved my dad and loved my brother, and the same thing went for my best friend's mom. It was like, all the beauty that was being displayed that day that really, that's the way I looked at that day. And I when I talked to Danelle about it, that, you know, I had a chance to speak with her, I was like, how are you doing? She's like, actually, I feel good today, you know, even though you're like, what. It's your mom's funeral. That's what I that's what we're talking about here.
Dr. Sue | Yes, 100% thank you so much for sharing that. First of all, you know when, when people, let's say somebody is watching or listening to what you're saying and they're like, wow, well, Robin is just naturally optimistic. I bet you she's experienced no hardship in life, right. Like, that's what like when I meeting you in person for the like, you know, on the screen for the first time, and you seemed very cheerful a person might, like, erroneously assume that you've never known hardship. And I feel like it is so profound that what you just shared to be like, no, she went through really dark times, and look at how, like, how she can still find meaning and positivity and blessings, you know, like they talk about, like, the glimmer in your day. So, you know, on the note of, like, losing a parent. Like I was on a radio show one time and talking about losing my mom, and this was before the book came out. And I never I'm a very relatively private person. I don't really share a lot about my personal life, and I had never talked publicly about my mom's death. And one of my high school friends who I had lost touch with, like, right after college, she had gotten married, and I think that was the last time I saw her, and we had lost touch for like, 20 years. She'd heard that radio program. She was on her way back home, and she was like, oh my god Sue, like, I wanted to reach out to you. I also lost my mom, and I follow her on social media. We follow each other, and I just thought she had this amazing, fabulous life. She's always partying. She's with, you know, 20 friends and relatives and traveling all over the world. And there was something that then bonded us over that and got us reconnected and became friends like, and a lot of my friendships have somehow started over, I don't know, loss, tragedy, stress, like, you know, they say boot camp, medical school, boarding school, like, stressful situations where you're put, you know, in a position where you're working really hard and maybe isolated from the rest of the world, you actually find commonalities and bonding experience. So I think that's so helpful for people to hear when they think you have a perfect life, to actually hear like, no, I don't these things happen to me, and I'm still happy. So if I can do it, you can do it.
Robin | Yep, none of us have a perfect life. All of us are going to have so much pain, so much tragedy, because we're human beings, and it's how we navigate it, and that's why I really appreciate. I was like, okay, you know, you've got your you've got your pillars, right, of practical optimism, which I think we should go through, the eight pillars.
Dr. Sue | Yeah.
Robin | And I was like, okay, I got that one, good, okay, got that one. Oh, definitely don't have that one. All right, that's where, and that's what I love about learning, is, is like, you don't have this is not about just like, oh my god, this is a big book. How am I going to get through, right. Actually, no, it's like, what are the pieces that you want to take with you, and what can you start doing now, right. And that's what it's all about. That's so empowering. Because if you can, and you have to try, though, you have to take you have to practice this. These are skills that you're not gonna you're not gonna be good at it right away, but the more you practice, the better and the stronger, and it will become like you, you teach about habits. It's like, you know, our lives, we're not successful, just like by waking up one day and being like, I'm an overnight success. There's no such thing, right. But we, we can get better at things, but we have to take action, and that's what you are all about. So
Dr. Sue | Yes
Robin | Let's go through the pillars.
Dr. Sue | Yes, absolutely. Thank you. And you know, in the beginning of the book, I give like, 40 question quiz, and basically each five, each of the five questions like, map onto one particular pillar. So starting with the pillar of purpose, you can get a kind of, like a screen like, a sort of 360 degree assessment of all of us have areas, even if we're naturally predisposed this way to think optimistically. Like even the most optimistic people can be broken down by hardship in life, right. And then you're like, Okay, I feel like I'm restarting over again and like, how do I get back to the person that I used to be, who was like, a relatively positive person? So these pillars, you know, I've put them in a certain order, because for me, purpose, it's the first one. It's the one that guides you, gives you intention, gives you clarity, gives you vision gives you purpose, and meaning gets you out of bed, right, and it helps you discover what do I want to do in life right now? And I always say that your purpose is ever evolving, just as you are. Your purpose yesterday may not be your purpose today, and your purpose today may not be the same as your purpose tomorrow. And that's 100% okay. You may say, okay, you know, I spent the first, you know, 10 or 15 years of my, you know, life when I was married, like raising children, and now it's about me. You know, I talked to a lot of women who are midlife, and they're like, I put my career on hold to raise a family, and now, like, where do I fit into this? And I want to do something I know so many women, starting businesses and podcasts, writing books, speaking like doing amazing things, traveling or whatever, just even taking on a hobby for themselves. So your purpose, and I give people like real, concrete steps, I say, if you can't find your purpose, it's your job to create it. Put the cart before the horse. And that's something a tip from cognitive behavioral therapy called behavioral activation, and it's populating your calendar with activities that give you meaning, pleasure and joy. You know, a lot of people are like, I feel like I'm lonely, like, there's a real loneliness crisis going on in every generation, like, not only the youngest, not only oldest, but midlife, and especially midlife women, parenting can be very isolating for a lot of people. They're like, but I'm always at sports games and I meeting other parents, and that's great, but a lot of times like, we're spending too much time, like shuffling our kids around from place or somehow being in service of other people. So just think back about, how do I reclaim my time, my intention? What do I want to do? And purpose can be big P in life, like, what am I called to do? Or it could literally be purpose in this moment, me and you. What's the purpose of our conversation? What do we want to get out of this? If you're at a meeting, a networking meeting, have a purpose in mind, right? First of all, go to the networking meeting. Like, there's all these cool even if it's in your if it's in your industry, it's an opportunity to meet other people. It's an opportunity to gain inspiration, or perhaps an industry you're interested in. They're now like, more these, like book clubs going on all over the city, silent book clubs that are like, outdoors in the warm weather and just bringing people together who have a shared, common interest. Of, I don't want to be on a screen. I just want to be around other people. Maybe I'll talk to somebody. But being intentional, getting very deliberate and getting very focused on what you want to achieve, whether it's in a day a year or in your lifetime, then the next pillar is processing your emotions. So if purpose is giving you intention and clarity and says, all right, I want to put the ball in motion, right. The next one is about, well, what's going to interfere, you know? So I work with a lot of people who are like, I want to make a change in my life. They come to me at all different levels of motivation, and I said, well, let's examine your emotions, because if you're not managing your emotions, they're going to manage you, and you're not going to be able to accomplish what you want. So a lot of times people are like, I want to do this, but I'm depressed, or I'm anxious, or I'm thinking too much about the future, or I'm comparing myself with other people, or I'm living in regret with the past. So there's a all these emotions that are keeping you paralyzed, that are keeping you stuck, or they're causing medical problems. So the body expresses what the mind cannot right? So if you're having digestive issues or headaches or unexplained, you know, insomnia, bowel problems. A lot of times you'll go from doctor to doctor. The average person will have five medical specialists before they get seen by a therapist, because they're having all these medical symptoms that really come down to, you know, anxiety, depression, or like grief or love, the need for human connection, so figuring out what's happening. And I give people a four step quick plan, you know, like, I'm a big fan of journaling, and there's so many different ways of doing this, and there's a lot of science behind journaling twice a week, 10 to 15 minutes each time. And it could be anything. It could be talking about what happened in your day that's upsetting you. And so I call this four step plan, name it, claim it, tame it and reframe it. So name the antecedent. Like a lot of times, people are going through their day they're so busy they can't even figure out what's pissing them off, and something is right, and you're like, I don't know. I'm mad. I'm clenching my teeth and my shoulders, and I just feel really like, upset or or I'm burying my head in the sand right, avoiding the confrontation with the people in my life, because if I were to tell them how I feel, I'm going to start crying. And then I see that a lot with women, anger ends up manifest, manifesting as like, tearfulness or breakdown because it's so hard for them to express, or they want to express, where they have been and no one's listening to them. So
Robin | We weren't culturally taught how to express our anger. It's like, we can't be angry. You have to be nice
Dr. Sue | Yes, exactly, exactly
Robin | And gentle and kind and all those things
Dr. Sue | Yes, and, you know, and I think we, like, I'm, you know, when you were talking about all the things that are happening in the world, like unfolding, like, literally, in the last, like, 24 to 48 hours, I'm thinking about how women are truly the strongest people that I know, because they hold it together. And they can, really, they can, they're able to see the end in mind, right. There's such wisdom that comes with, okay, I want to maintain this relationship, so I instead of like, pissing the person off, how can I be kind and gentle? So we have remember we were talking about flexibility. I feel like we really are flexible. We're not like, okay, I want to get from point A to point B, and let me do it in the faster way possible. We meander in our conversations, right. My husband makes fun of me like, when we talk, because he's very linear most men are right. They're like, so what's the problem and here's the solution. And I'm like, no, no, I don't need solutions. I want to talk. And they don't understand that concept of venting and releasing and whatever. So anyway, going back to the four step plan, name it. What's the antecedent? Tame it. Right. What are you going to do to calm those feelings down? Claim it. Where in the body are you feeling the tension? And then reframe it. How are you going to put a positive spin? And there's so many ways to put a positive spin. It could be like, you know, what's another way of looking at it? What would I tell a friend in this situation? How would I feel about this five years from now? And sometimes there is no positive spin, right. Like, when I was working with survivors of nine, like, I'm sorry, there's no way I'm going to be able to say like there was anything positive that came out of it. I mean, we saw hope, we saw resilience, we saw community, we saw people coming together in a way that we've never seen before. But no, that was never a situation anybody would have chosen, you know, to get to that point. So I say, you know, if there is something that you're really struggling with, ask yourself, is this a problem to be solved or a truth to be accepted?
Robin | Oh boy, that is good. I really this was the one pillar that I'm like, okay, Robin, this is where you this is where I'm gonna hone in and focus, because I know this is where I like I need to do the work, I'm a very like I ruminate. My mind will go on. And, you know, you call monkey you could call it monkey mind. I've heard of that before, but it's, it's taking control of my mind and being like, because I could like, it's not catastrophizing, but it's like, making up, yeah, a whole bunch of different stories.
Dr. Sue | Yes, yes. What if?
Robin | And it's like, it's like an endless loop, like, it just caught myself this morning. I'm on my way to take my my daughter to school, and I caught myself. That's the thing, though, right like, awareness is so important, because I was aware that I was looping
Dr. Sue | Yes
Robin | And I'm like, Stop
Dr. Sue | Yes.
Robin | Like, I told myself, stop. That's enough. You like, you have been going on autopilot on this story, or whatever this thought pattern is. It's it's been going for, I don't know how long you have to stop it now and take a couple of deep breaths. And then one of the pillars, of course, is presence. So I got present in my seat in, you know, talking to my daughter when she got in the car. And that's it. It's like, there's, there's ways that we that, once we are, once we are starting to practice
Dr. Sue | Yes
Robin | These skills
Dr. Sue | Yes
Robin | It's like we can't interrupt.
Dr. Sue | Yes, totally
Robin | The old habit that my mind is doing, the monkey mind
Dr. Sue | Yes, and I love, and I love, you know, when you're talking about with your daughter coming in the car, like, there's when surrounding yourself with interactions like and people that you love, it forces you to come outside of your own head. So I think that's a really important thing. Like one of the things with the taming, like, it could be a deep breath. It could be meditation, it could be journaling. There's so many ways that you can tame the anxiety, but like distraction, healthy distractions, laughing, you know, of course, if you're not, I'm not suggesting 17 hours on Netflix, but, but if Netflix, or anything, a person a meme, quick social media, sound bite, like something that's funny, cat videos. Like to think about, I think, you know, one thing I want, I always want people to do is, like, take away. What are you going to take away from this conversation? So I would love for people to like as they're listening to this, you know, if they want to pause it to say, like, what am I going to do? What's helpful for me to get out of my own head? How do I break the loop? And, you know, talking to someone that I love, or just focusing on, like, the traffic, you know, like, or the beauty, you know, like I'm driving by if it happens to be, I mean, you're in such a beautiful part of the world that to say, like, where are the trees? You know, with appreciating what's around you in this moment right now?
Robin | Yeah, great. So then you have problem solving
Dr. Sue | Yes, and I give people 25 questions in this book, but basically, like, imagine, if you're, you are your own $1,000 an hour life coach. You know, I just made that number up. But, like, I'm just thinking of these, like, super fancy life coaches that do these, like, big seminars, you know, like, you're spending 10's of 1000's of dollars, and I'm like, that's great, like, because people want in person connection, but it's also very expensive. So like, if you were to, like, be at home, and you're like, I want a fabulous life coach in my own home and be like, interactive, to be like, okay, you know, if some if you're like, in a transition in your life right now, and you're like, I don't know what to do, I kind of gave a sample of, like, what I would do with someone in therapy who's like, I want to change careers. I want to be a photographer. I mean, I made that up. It literally could be anything. And how do you develop the skills? And the whole point of practical optimism is you keep positivity always, you know, infuse, inject positivity into whatever you're doing by saying, I want to hope for the best possible outcome, right. Like, if I want to change careers, I'm not going to sit here and think about the 95 things that can go wrong, right. But I'm going to be practical. I need money. Where am I getting that from? Who's going to support me? Who's going to mentor me? What classes am I going to take? What does a timeline look like? And I'm really big on, like, starting in the end and working your way backwards. So like, if this is a final product, and that's a 10, what's step number nine, number eight, number seven, number six? So write down all of the things that have to go into that, right and and not to overwhelm you. But I think it's really important that you be realistic about the change if you're moving to a different city, like any transition, any change that you want. But I make it very concrete, problem solving, and problem solving is always happening on two levels. One is out there in the world, what steps need to be taken, but also regulating and managing your own emotions, thinking about the fear that's coming up. I want to do this, but am I going to be able to make it? Am I going to survive? So I think as people and people and people always have backup plans, right. That's the realistic planning and wanting and wishing for the best, you know, but also planning for for the worst and everything in between. So what's the best possible outcome, what's the worst possible outcome, and what's the most realistic outcome?
Robin | The other skills that you're and, really, I love, the tools around if you just having a really hard time making decisions. Like, I think in my life, like, I'm a very decisive person. I don't have a hard time making decisions. I really do.
Dr. Sue | That's awesome
Robin | However, there's people, a lot of people that don't, that are not like that, and I know, like, I see it right with people around me, and you give yourself you're saying, give yourself a rule of three right? Give yourself three days, ask no more than three trusted people for input if you're having a really hard time making a decision, narrow the choices to three, right? And then you give yourself three days. And I say, I like, oh, that's smart. I like that.
Dr. Sue | Yeah, I mean, and I say three days, like, you know, a person
Robin | Not with big, big decisions. I mean, you're not gonna be like, okay, should I move to, you know
Dr. Sue | Yes.
Robin | We're not talking about, you know, giving yourself three days to make massive life changes,
Dr. Sue | Totally. Like, it could be three days, three you know, give yourself a time frame, a reasonable, realistic time frame for that level of a decision. So it could be three weeks, it could be three months. But, like, the point just is, it should be something finite that, like, by this day, you know. And you know, they've done a lot of studies on the concept of, like, you know, analysis, you know
Robin | Paralysis
Dr. Sue | Yeah, exactly. And choice fatigue and decision dilemma, and 100% you know, like they there's a study that was looking at a farmer's market, and they had people with two different tables, like one table had 24
Robin | Jam study
Dr. Sue | Yeah, and one had, like, fewer. And the less options you give people, like, the having more options entices people, intrigues people, so you it got more foot traffic. But the table with the less jars of jam had more sales. So, like, back in the day when they had tomato sauce, like, they had three options, you know, I don't know, like raghu, and I don't remember the other ones. But like, you didn't have too many options, and you were more likely to go in there and purchase it and leave, you know? So think about
Robin | This is something that we are learning and coming up against so much with our community that are online dating. It's like this, there is, there's too much. It's almost, well, it's this, this, it's this perception that your choices are endless.
Dr. Sue | Yes
Robin | And it don't worry if you make the wrong choice over here, you can always go to the app and choose somebody new, the grass is going to be greener on it like, it's this idea, like, no worries. It's like, you're not investing.
Dr. Sue | Yes
Robin | The people that actually you you could, could connect with, right? So, yeah, there's a lot of too much choices, not, not always positive
Dr. Sue | And then ask yourself, like, is it quality choice because, sure, in theory, right, there are, if you just look at sheer numbers, there is a lot out there. And you know, to me, that type of thinking is really problematic. You know, this idea that there's always yes, there is always someone else, and you would counsel somebody that like, if they really got hurt or rejected, to be to push them to try again, to go out there and date if they had a bad experience, to say there are other options, but that thinking shouldn't prevent you from investing what's in front of you. And so there is that delicate balance of like, look, if you're not ready to commit, just say it. Because I work with so many patients who are like, I'm so annoyed with this dating situation, the apps, like, and so I say take it offline. Like, what are you interested in? Right. So, like, if you're interested in hiking and cycling and biking and yoga, whatever it is, join those like minded people groups and do things in person. Because you that's a very low stakes and low pressure situation where no one is expecting anything, and you're meeting in a more natural, organic environment where things are unfolding, you know, and you'll see if there's attraction, you'll see if there's common shared interests and values, which there should be because, because you're go seeking the same interests, or people with the same interest. So I think that, like, we're seeing this whole shift, like, you know, when I was single and dating, you know, there the whole app thing was just getting started, right. And then I see like that, like a good 15 years of people like, you know, before, it used to be so taboo, if you ever, God forbid, you admitted that you met your partner online,
Robin | Online
Dr. Sue | Right. And now that is the most common way that most people
Robin | Absolutely
Dr. Sue | Half or more. But now we're seeing a real shift back to the in person. And I want to do that. So I would say, supplement having, having that variety, but also like being very clear, like, what are you looking for, right. And I think that's a whole other conversation we can have, but I think so many people are afraid to ask for clarity early on, oh, I'm going to seem too needy. I'm going to be too demanding, and they don't ask. And so they end up in these situationships endless, right. With undefined, hoping for something more, because one person wants something different or substantial, the other doesn't. So I think there are ways to get at that question without seeming, you know, like overwhelming or creepy, to be like, I just met you why are you asking me? You know, because there's ways to ask very neutrally, like, generally speaking, what brought you to the apps? What are you on them for? What have you been looking for? Are you happy with your experience? What has your experience been? Where do you see this going for you? It doesn't have to be a first day conversation, but at some point in the weeks, as they unfold, if you're not asking these questions or at least taking in the information. Because I think the other thing is, we see what we want to see. Sometimes the evidence is there to suggest that you're not on the same page in terms of what you want. But I feel like a lot of times we turn a blind eye because we want something to work out so badly that we put our blinders on, and information that's not consistent with what we want to see or hear or believe, we tend to ignore. So that's also important to keep in mind.
Robin | Yeah, so one of the pillars of practical optimism is pride. What does that mean? Like, why why would pride be one of the pillars? I'd like yeah, let's dive into this one. Because I yes this is interesting. Yeah.
Dr. Sue | So you know, most people, they think of pride, they think of like egoistic pride. And what I mean is actually just an intrinsic sense of self worth that says, you know, I deserve to take up space simply because I exist period. That my self worth is not based on my productivity or anything else, and it's rooted in self compassion. So that's really what this pillar means. And there's so much evidence. So you know, when it comes to optimism, the evidence shows that people who are optimistic live longer, 10 to 15% longer. They experience exceptional longevity. They're living not only longer but healthier lives, because most women will spend the last decade of their life in poor health, dependent in a nursing home, unfortunately, declining cognitive abilities, like declining muscle mass, declining bone health. So there's no what's the point of living longer if you're not going to be in good health, right? So living longer in good health, 30% less likely to get strokes, 30% less likely to get heart attacks, 40% more likely to get a raise in the next year, more more likely to have longer and stronger friendships from childhood. So the list can go on about the benefits of optimism and the same thing for self compassion. So a 10 Minute self compassion exercise, just the way a 10 Minute brief optimism intervention, can change your entire world. So self compassion looks like, you know, I okay, I screwed up on something. Am I going to beat myself up? No, that's not productive. Am I going to take responsibility for it 100% so that's another thing that I'm seeing. Is a lot of people deflect responsibility, they externalize, they blame others, the whole world.
Robin | So many people do this. It's like, stop it. Yeah, you need, you need, you need to take accountability when you mess up, when you hurt somebody, when you make a mistake, it's okay. We're human
Dr. Sue | Yes, the blame the externalization. And, you know what like, blame often comes from deep, rooted sense of shame, right. Like, I can't tolerate being wrong. God forbid, if I'm wrong, it would mean the world would collapse. So that's something that we have to learn very early on. Like, I think you know, whether it's from our parenting, like we were humiliated or shamed as a kid, or that our parents didn't tolerate imperfection or whatever, any number of causes could get you to where you are, but one question I want people to ask themselves is, how quick are you to say sorry, you know when you've made a mistake? And how do you tend to deal with. Do you avoid? Do you go into denial? Do you become really defensive? And, you know, I'm a big fan of John.,John Gottman's work about, like, the four horsemen of the apocalypse, right. Defensiveness, stonewalling, criticism and contempt.
Robin | And those are the four ways to destroy a relationship.
Dr. Sue | 100 %. Yeah, yeah. And he talks about like, 95% certainty. And I work with a lot of couples, and when I see that, it's really beautiful to see people together, like being able to express themselves, and when the other person can experience empathy for the other person and say, like, I never knew that I was hurting you so much or whatever, but the defensiveness I feel like, you know, we're almost at an impasse, because it's like, if it's so hard for you, this is the person that you love, that you feel the safest with, that you should, in theory, feel the most vulnerable with. But then we put up these walls of, you know, my S, H, I T, don't stink. You know, it's not me, it's you, and that is like the sure fire way to for destruction. So self compassion says we're human. There's a common humanity. I mess up. You mess up. We're all going to take turns messing up, right. So one by one and and let's own it, let's face it, but then also, what am I going to do about it? So a lot of times people think, oh, self compassion is so woo, woo. You're letting people off the hook. Absolutely not. Self Compassion says I messed up. I am human, but I'm not going to spend 75 hours berating myself, because shame, when it's internalized, can be a slippery slope to depression and we and also suicide, right. So when they looked at people who are in the depths of depression, and we don't know which came first, is a chicken or the egg, do they, but shame prone people tend to be people who have depression because they get stuck, stuck in this negative feedback loop. It and it's not just I did did something bad. Shame says
Robin | I am bad
Dr. Sue | Yeah, and that's the difference between shame and guilt, because guilt can be says, I want to take responsibility, but I want to fix it, right. And so then it's a it's a more pro social behavior, because it puts you back out in the game. And it was like, oh my god, I messed up. I feel guilty about this. What can I do to solve it? And it puts you back in the driver's seat. It makes you proactive. It makes you accountable. But then it also puts you ideally in a situation where you maybe ask for forgiveness, or you attempt again to correct your actions, but shame paralyzes you because it's like, oh, I just did something so bad. I want to run, I want to hide. I don't want to face this person. And then you end up losing the relationship altogether, right. And you never got an attempt to correct it and to preserve the relationship if it was something interpersonal. So self compassion, forgive says, let's forgive myself. Let me accept what happened. Let me create space for and tolerate my own imperfections. And when we look at people who are the most unhappy, most depression prone, the most loneliness prone, it's people with very high sense of like, self expectations, perfectionism, neuroticism, and they can't tolerate other people thinking badly of them, and these people end up tending to be more lonely and more depressed. So self compassion is about giving your taking accountability, but also giving yourself a break.
Robin | Yeah, I really like that. So that's pride. I also see it, like, as being, being, like, really proud of the life that you're the choices you're making, yes, like, you know, you have an inner pride
Dr. Sue | Totally, totally
Robin | And, and if, and, you know, if you've done something, like we all do, it's like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna self correction. Or, you know, at least said, Robin, not cool, not good. I'm so okay, like, it is a kind of, like, a correction, right? That I'm back feeling good about myself.
Dr. Sue | Yes, and also that other people are are back and feeling good about you. And that's why I think, like, optimists are so are have so many friends, because they're, like, just so pleasant to be around. They're so pleasant because they're happy, they're positive. They take responsibility. Because even if someone isn't happy or positive, like, you'll still be friends with them. But as long as they're willing to take responsibility, like, if somebody, if a friend, shows up at a lunch date, like 45 minutes late, and imagine they just sit down, don't say anything, and you then they start to order, right. That the simple example, most people would be like, no, I'm pretty sure. But we have people like this in their life, in our lives, like some version of that, maybe not 45 minutes, maybe 20 minutes. Maybe 20 minutes, but they're not calling out the elephant in the room. And you're like, I'm sorry, I can't be friends with you until you acknowledge this
Robin | Right, because that affected this or like, right?
Dr. Sue | Yeah. And it's just awkward, right?
Robin | Okay, so proficiency
Dr. Sue | Yes yeah. So you know, like, there's so many ways to get better at something. And it basically says, this is about self efficacy, and it's like, you need to be an agent of change in your life. You want to accomplish something, and there's so many ways to do it, learning from your own mistakes, learning from the mistakes of other, vicarious learning, learning through mentors. But you know, there's a famous quote by Rumi that says, like, don't be satisfied by the tales of others. Like, go out and create your own adventures. So there's no better way to learn than from your own mistakes. So you know, like this whole idea of like failing quickly, failing forward, like just be proactive and go get the information, get a mentor, get a role model, get a sponsor, get people in your lives, take trainings, take courses, but then act like, I know, I know plenty people who are like, constantly going from one seminar, one training, whatever, and they're spending, like, 1000's of dollars a year learning always, but they're not taking the chances. So just ask yourself, first of all, am I doing learning? Big fan of lifelong learning, but am I supplementing it with action?
Robin | I read somewhere, and maybe it was your book Sue around you know, sometimes if, like, we are, we need take another course, get another degree, did it. It's like, that actually is a form of procrastination
Dr. Sue | Totally
Robin | Because you was that, was that your book?
Dr. Sue | Yeah
Robin | Okay, yeah. I was like, Oh, that actually makes a lot of sense, that
Dr. Sue | Yes, because you're avoiding, yeah, like you're the fear of failure is so high, yeah
Robin | I think that, I think that so many of us are debilitated by fear and not taking the steps. And it's like, well, what's the alternative? You're just in the same place as you were, you know, five years, five years ago, because you actually just didn't take the steps. And fear is, I was talking to one of my best friends about this last week, because I was at a girls trip, and we always just sit and talk about everything to do with life
Dr. Sue | I love that
Robin | And we were talking about fear. And, you know, two of my friends had said this, like, Robin, like you seem fearless, and you're, you know, just, you know, I look at you and I'm like, you have so much courage everything. I'm like, I'm scared a lot, you know, but it's not stopping me, because it's like, I think about where my life is now, and all the things that I've been able to do and try. It's because I did the thing. And even, like, I'm talking to my best friend, Kirsten, about my podcast, I'm like, when I first started this podcast four years ago, I mean, trust me, there was so much fear. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be really fun. This is gonna be bad, right. But I really want to do it. Okay. So then you get all prepared, learn the things you need, and they just go for it. And you know, if I look back, listen back on like, the first two or three episodes, trust me, they were not great at all. But you know, how do you get good at something? You have to keep doing it. You have to practice. You have to show up and do the thing
Dr. Sue | Yes, and then you did it for four years, like, that's amazing, and you're going to keep doing it because you're getting better and better and better. And you know, I love that you say that the field of fear, and do it anyway, because people always ask me, like, if I'm giving a talk in front of in front of a large crowd, they're like, are you nervous? And it's such an interesting question, because it's almost immaterial. I'm sure I am on some level, right. Like you'll do with it, yeah, but it's like the need that I have, like, to communicate this information is so strong, you know, like I'm compelled by it, almost on a force that's outside of myself. So it's like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, sure, I am. And not to mention the weeks of work. Like, if I'm doing a keynote speech like and trying to craft it to that audience, I don't use slides or a teleprompter, so I'm delivering a 60 minute talk that I'm creating from scratch each time. Imagine like a 1 hour monolog where every line is like, you have to know it perfectly, like for delivery of a joke, or comedic timing or whatever, or sad stories or inspirational or leading an exercise, you know. And so there's so much work that goes into it, and the pressure is high, the stakes are high. The audience you know that you're delivering it to like, there's, there's high expectations. So it doesn't mean that preparation, that sacrifice, that hard work didn't go into it, or that there's not anxiety, all of those things. But when you feel so compelled that, like, I must do this, and I would say to people, find out what is what is that for you? Right. Because I think a lot of people in this day and age are getting super caught up on I need to do this, whatever it is, like, oh, I have to have a podcast. I have to be an author. I have to be a speaker.
Robin | No
Dr. Sue | And it's like, show up in the way that you're comfortable if you if you say, I'm good at speaking, but I'm also really nervous. Then you then, then ask yourself, what coaching, what help, what mentorship? What do I need to get out of my own way so that I can deliver the message in the way that I need to? And figure out what that forum or that medium is for you. Like, forget about what you think that you need to be doing right. Somebody may say, I'm more of a newsletter gal, I'm not a podcast person, or I'm not a keynote speaker. Like, that's totally fine. Or it's easier for me to show up on social media, or I hate showing up on social media, fine, you know, like on so, so there's this delicate balance of knowing yourself well enough to be like, like, I'm not a I'm not going to be a 5am hot yoga person ever, right. But that doesn't mean that I'm off the hook for exercising, right. I have to
Robin | Exactly.
Dr. Sue | Yeah
Robin | Yeah, right. I think you made just such a good point there around you because of the way that you have chosen to live your life, decisions you've made around all of this. It's like you named about five of the pillars of being like, all of that went, that goes, that go into, like, for instance, getting on stage and giving that keynote.
Dr. Sue | Yeah
Robin | There was the purpose, the pride, the proficiency, presence, like, I'm like, all of it.
Dr. Sue | Yes
Robin | That's like, that's what we're talking about here.
Dr. Sue | Totally, totally waking up being moved by something, and if you can't find something, you know, if you don't have it, then find it, right. And then there's going to be the anxiety. So that's the that's the purpose, the processing emotions of, like, I feel anxiety, fear, perfectionism, like, is this going to be good? Is the audience going to get like to like it? And getting trapped. And you could easily get trapped, and that's happened to me a million times, right. But the last pillar, which is practicing healthy habits, and that's why there's this arc of purpose, which is vision and the last one is practicing healthy habits, which is execution, right. So both are equally important, the vision but the execution. Don't spend so much time on your vision that you never execute. Or, like we say loud, people procrastinate and they're so stuck in the vision that they never act. So always balance the vision with the action and the execution, you know, and everything all the steps in between. You know, proficiency was about getting out there and doing it. Presence is about being in the moment, finding your oasis, moments not getting caught up in worry, which is anxiety for the future, or regret, which causes depression about the past, or comparisons or fear of missing out in the present. So think of all of the things. These are all traps that keep you away from being in the present, your ruminations, for example. And so presence is about taking back your time in a digital age. It's also about being present because of all the things that are messing with your mind. And then the next pillar is about people. And this is like I always say, I love this African proverb. It says, If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. So, you know, I would love to, even, you know, hear from you about female friendship, because you mentioned this trip, and I'm, you know, and then you mentioned you have a daughter, right. So, like, I imagine it's not easy. What gets you, like, I have to do this girl's trip, because that's so beautiful to me that, like, even though you're a busy professional mom, you still make time for those friendships, because that's
Robin | I do. I do. You know, there's a people are a pillar in my life, and it's like, my closest value is my relationships with the people that I love. And I've got nine best friends that I grew up with. I've got a lot of, a lot of very, very, very close friends. I'm so lucky. But also it's intentional. Yes, so the 10 of us, we go on a girls trip every year, and if one of us can't make it, we know next year there's going to be another one, and the year after that, there's always going to be a girls trip. And so you know that if you miss there's FOMO, if you can't go for some reason, right. Because life happens, but there's always going to be another one. And our friendship, we treat our friendship very well it's, it's like this precious thing that we have to take care of. Like, your friendships don't just happen.
Dr. Sue | No
Robin | You have to keep grow them and take care of them.
Dr. Sue | Yes
Robin | Just like you would your children, like you do, right. You have to take care of your friendships. And so, yeah.
Dr. Sue | I love, I love that just, you know, you you're just telling me that, like, that in alone would tell me, like, okay, there's some optimism, or practical optimism going here. Because what I'm seeing, like, you know, I've been out there now in the circuit of promoting the book, and I've met tons of podcast hosts and tons of, like, really successful people in journalism and in media. And one thing I'm seeing is that the higher up you go, there's a lot of loneliness. You know, there's like, they say that, that saying, like, things are lonely at the top. And I feel like a lot of people have prioritized this hustle culture of I need to be the best, and often it comes at the expense of maintaining relationships. Part of it is like, I think, a secrecy that comes of like, I have to protect my boundaries and my inner space, and I don't like people near, like, there's something going on that I'm noticing, so I love and I that about you, and I really applaud you that you're doing this, because it's not easy. A lot of times people are like, standoffish, that like the more successful. Like, people think that like celebrity or getting to be well known or public figure brings you more. I think it does on some level, people and opportunities, but I think for a lot of people, it can also be very isolating. So to be deliberate and to have optimists have longer and stronger friendships from childhood, right. Because pessimists are along the way, have a lot of times personalized rejection, and somebody did something to them, or someone in the group said something, and they're like, that's it. I'm cutting you off. So I think you need to that's so beautiful, and there's a secret behind it, and I would love to hear more about that someday.
Robin | You know, I I think that I am pretty discerning now in my life on who as close to me, because, as we know, this world is full of like, the way I see it is like there's givers and takers in this world.
Dr. Sue | Yes, totally.
Robin | And there might be a little bit of gray in there, but I don't think so. If I'm surrounded by people that I'm feeling like drained by no, I don't want that anymore. I'm very discerning. And the people that I am choosing to be around, we fill each other up. It's like overflowing. It's like we're feeding each other, we're supporting each other, we're holding each other up. And yeah, so that, then that's how you go further, is by surrounding yourself with with really, really good people.
Dr. Sue | Absolutely, yeah. And you know, in this, in this pillar with people, I talk about how to form meaningful connections on a deep level, but also how to have activity partners, like people always think that, like, if I'm not really close with someone what's the point? Or why the investment? Or what is this superficial nonsense, chit chat? And I say that each of these things have their own place, the micro connections, which are the people you meet on the elevator, on the bus, on the subway and the grocery store line, those interactions, believe it or not, are such an important built in part of your day that we like lost during the pandemic, during the quarantine. Okay, so don't ever give up the small, you know, water cooler conversations. But also, don't forget to go deep as well.
Robin | Right. It's about connecting with fellow human beings throughout your daily life. It's so important. It really, really is. Well, we ran out of time. I told you we're gonna stop like two minutes one minute ago, but we're not. We're going over five minutes. Thank you. Dr. Sue, I really, I wish we could talk for another, you know, hour about this, but I want everybody to read your book, Practical Optimism. I'm going to be passing it on. And that's what I do with my like, my favorite books is
Dr. Sue | I love it.
Robin | You have to read this. This is what I'm working on. And, you know, I love that. Like, when you share,
Dr. Sue | Yeah
Robin | With your reader, and then you could talk about it, like, what do you think about that? And what do you think about this? Because you're gonna that's how we learn together and grow together
Dr. Sue | Totally. You know, there's something there that we didn't get to talk about. But it was like, do you see yourself, what's your decision making style? And are you a satisficer or a maximizer? So Robin, I'm gonna give you a task for your next female, get your next friend, get together, or cocktail party. Is throw that around. What kind of a decision what's your decision making style? Because it's like a fun like party quiz or yeah
Robin | I'm a satisfier.
Dr. Sue | Yeah, that's like
Robin | I think I am, yeah, I Yeah, yeah, I am. I think
Dr. Sue | I love it. And your, your your 10, your 10 Best Friends should have a Practical Optimism, book, book club.
Robin | Yeah, no kidding. You know what we're all optimists. It's we really are
Dr. Sue | It's really rare like and you all like each other still after all these years?
Robin | Absolutely, yeah
Dr. Sue | There's not one person in there that you're like, Yeah, we're gonna, not sure if we want to invite her next year. That's never happened?
Robin | No, no, no, no, no, we'll give her shit if she's she's being a Debbie Downer. We're just sorry for any Debbie's listening. I don't mean it.
Dr. Sue | I love it. So great talking to you.
Robin | I want to close with a blessing with really your sentiments from what I've learned from you this week. Dr. Sue, may we practice the principles of practical optimism so that we can have a secure, level headed sense of self worth, resulting in more confidence in ourselves and our abilities, this will help us unleash our natural strengths and talents and build a life of meaning, purpose, connection and joy, and may we foster a mindset that firmly believes in the limitless, positive potential within oneself and others. So thank you. Dr. Sue Pharma Varma, I'm sorry. I really appreciated our conversation today and learning from you this week. I really did. So thank you.
Dr. Sue | Thank you. Thank you so much for having me
Robin | Thank you so much for being here with us. Let's Talk Love is brought to you by Real Love Ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme. If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com for more resources and tools to boost your relational skills and get better at love if this podcast has resonated with you, it would mean the world to us if you could take just 30 seconds to do these three things. Follow us or subscribe. Never miss an episode by hitting the follow or subscribe button wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether it's Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite app, this makes sure new episodes show up automatically for you, and it helps us get more visibility so more people can find our show. Leave a rating and review. Your feedback means everything to us. By leaving a five star rating and a thoughtful review, you're not only showing your support, but also helping others discover the podcast. Share an episode that really spoke to you with someone in your life, whether it's a friend, partner or family member, your recommendation could just be what they need to hear. We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express gratitude for the Co Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play and encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well many blessings and much love.