Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 9 Episode 9 with Dr. Thema Bryant | Transcript
15.05.25
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Robin Ducharme | Hello everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk Love. We are going to be talking all things love today, and we do on every show. And today we're going to be joined. We are joined by Dr Thema Bryant. Dr Thema, thank you for being with us again.
Dr. Thema Bryant l Thank you so much. I've been looking forward to the conversation, and appreciate you hosting me.
Robin Ducharme | Oh, me too. You know I we the last time you were on Let's Talk Love, we were talking about Homecoming, and how you know your book was homecoming was all about coming into yourself, learning more about yourself, operating more from your heart. And now we this their new your newest book is called Matters of the Heart. It's beautiful.
Dr. Thema Bryant l Thank you so much.
Robin Ducharme | It's, it's called Healing Your Relationship With Yourself and Those You Love. And Dr Thema, um, well, I'm going to just give a little introduction about your background, and then, and then we'll dive in.
Dr. Thema Bryant l Ok sounds good.
Robin l So you are a licensed psychologist. You're also an ordained minister, which I think is is so fascinating and beautiful.
Dr. Thema l Thank you.
Robin l And professor of psychology at Pepperdine University in California, and in 2023 you became the president of the American Psychological Association, advocating for mental health and wellness, locally, nationally and globally. So you've been on the road promoting your beautiful new book. Tell us what led you to to write your book. And also I was, you know, I was just thinking as I was getting ready this morning for this and just wanted to know more about like, your day to day, like, I know, I know, right now you're on your book tour, but what is it that you're doing day to day in your in your work?
Dr. Thema l Yes, absolutely. So I was so excited to I'll say birth Matters of the Heart, because one of the big predictors as a psychologist and a psychology researcher, one of the big predictors for our mental health, is actually relationships, which you know come to comes as no surprise, like if you have secure, loving, nourishing relationships, whether with your family of origin or with your chosen family or friends or with a loving partner, it is what we call a buffer when the stresses of life show up, right, when challenges happen, when I don't feel like I'm having to go through it by myself, or carry it by myself, or just people who care about me and know me. That can be a buffer against despair anxiety. When we go through major life changes of loss, having people to walk that journey with you makes such a huge difference. And on the other side, when we have been affected by unhealthy relationships, whether abusive or some would say toxic or betrayal or abandonment or rejection, that also affects our mental health. So it's one of the questions I get asked the most, whether by therapy clients or in social media where I post about mental health, so I really wanted to address mental health and as it relates to relationships. So in terms of my day to day, I do have a private practice. I see therapy clients. I also spend a large part of my time as a professor at Pepperdine University, so teaching students who are training to become either therapist or psychologist. We have a master's program and a doctoral program. I'm also a mom of two, and my eldest is in her second year of college, a theater major, yeah
Robin l Theater major, nice.
Dr. Thema l And yes, I'm so excited for her, in the fall, she's gonna do the study abroad in Accra, Ghana. And so I'm like, I didn't do study abroad when I was a college student. I think it's such a great opportunity to experience life in another place and then have a large gap. My son is in middle school and is into coding and all things technology.
Robin l Yeah. Oh, that's just awesome. Yeah. I've got, I've got three kids myself, and my oldest is in university, and she's
Dr. Thema l Beautiful.
Robin l And then my youngest is three and a half, so huge gap in my middle. She's 15. But yeah, what a blessing it is to have our children and watch them flourish in their and,
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l So you know, you say your book is for whether you are trying to level up a happy relationship or rebuild trust after an unhappy one, Matters of the Heart will empower you to connect to yourself and to others, heal your heart and thrive in areas, in all areas of your life. And I think that is the gift of your book is that it it covers so many different ways that, you know, there's so much that we can learn and focus on when it comes to our hearts, right?
Dr. Thema l It is
Robin l Yeah, so much of this. And I think it's now, it's only in the last, you know, I've been, you know, we've been running the podcast for, I'm gonna say, three, three and a half years now, and I would say in the last, well, definitely, since the pandemic and beyond, we're talking so much more about, yes, mental health, but also self love, understanding what that really means. What does it mean to tune into your heart and follow your heart and listen to your heart,
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l Right? And how is it that you would explain how mental health and our hearts are so intertwined? How do you because you're teaching psychology as well the university. So yes, I'm interested to hear how, how is that what is that link, and how you can translate that to our listeners?
Dr. Thema l Right. So we want to think holistically, which includes attending to our heart. Sometimes people demonize or pathologize emotions, but emotions are a part of our humanity, and so a part of us understanding ourselves is recognizing what we feel and how we feel, and honoring our humanity to have the full range of emotions. Sometimes, because of family or culture or religion, there can be what we would call like this toxic positivity, where you can only express like gratitude or joy, and there isn't room for our sorrow or our disappointment or common saying when I was growing up that parents would say to children was, fix your face.
Robin l Fix your face.
Dr. Thema l Your face. Yeah, was this message of like, you weren't allowed to have to be bored, you weren't allowed to be upset. And so then we have these adults who are still policing their emotions, and the emotions don't go away. It just means we end up living these censored lives, or we're ashamed of what we feel, or we deny what we feel. And so we can't live an authentic life and a healthy life when we have to lie to ourselves and lie to others. And so tuning into your heart, your heart gives you information, right? And then you can be curious about that information, of like, I don't feel good in this person's presence, right. What is that telling me, or I feel joyful or excited as soon as I see their name on my phone. What is that telling me? So honoring that as a source of important information,
Robin l Absolutly, something you talk about early on in the book is compassion, enhancing our self compassion, and you say, to lay the groundwork, start by asserting that your growth is built on the idea that your love for yourself is necessary. And what does that actually mean? It's like, it's only until recently, I think, and I'm 47 years old, and I'm like, I am really at a place in my life where I'm like, I actually really do love myself, and I can say that with, with, with, with so much truth and honesty.
Dr. Thema l I love that
Robin l Feeling aligned with my actions,
Dr. Thema l Yes, and yes
Robin l And the people I'm surrounded by, and the work I'm doing, you know, who I am as a mother. There's just all the aspects, you know, the shit's gonna hit the fan. Life is life, yeah, but like, I do really do, like, honor and love myself and so, but what does it mean? But I can catch myself when I'm not loving myself.
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l And you say, as you begin to think about ways you may have been harsh with judgmental of or shaming of yourself
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l Like it's how we talk to ourself, right?
Dr. Thema l Right. True. So true it is we can be harsh and judgmental and neglectful of ourselves, right, because sometimes we have gotten the modeling or the message that says that a good person has no needs and takes care of everyone else. This is especially a message we can get as women
Robin l As girls, as women
Dr. Thema l Right caretakers of others, while we are neglecting our own garden. And so, you know, I love you, saying that in this stage of your journey, you actually can say it honestly that you love yourself because I would dare to use words like it's radical, it's revolutionary. It was an act of resistance to get to self love, because we are bombarded with so many messages that tell us that we're not enough. You know, from advertisement, unless you have these products, you're not enough from film and television where, like, the leading lady looks a particular way, and if that's not you, then you can't have, like, good love or a good life. You know, with materialism and consumerism, that if I can't afford these things, then somehow I'm less than and so, you know, we can have compare despair, and it can keep
Robin l Compare despair. I've never heard that before.
Dr. Thema l Yeah, we're especially with social media, we're seeing what I like to call people's curated lives, right? Like people often post their like best moments. You do have some people who post themselves crying, but usually people are posting their best moments. And so, you know, I remember during the pandemic where moms were, like, posting these recipes and these arts and crafts activities with their kids, and I'm like, I'm just trying to make it through the day
Robin l Exactly this is, like, you're just so I remember that exactly. It's like, I did the homeschooling thing for like, I even lasted, like, there was, you know, you got steam, right? For the first three days, four days, I am the worst teacher ever. Okay, I am not a teacher, so like I was a disaster at it. But okay, then I'm like, kids, let's take a run outside that I could help you with. That's about it.
Dr. Thema l So true. So it's like to give ourselves grace, compassion and care. You know, it's like, what am I doing to nourish myself? Because neglecting ourselves is unsustainable. You know, it affects our physical and our mental health, and we're just not at our best when we're running on empty, and many of us are living on like fumes, like perpetually on the break of burnout, and so like shifting to create a lifestyle of love. And I love when you said, not just to say, I love myself, but you use the word action, right? If I didn't ask someone, do you love yourself? And I just watch their actions, do my decisions reflect in honoring of myself?
Robin l Yes, how are you if you were to take an inventory of your life, of your day or your week
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l How are your actions in alignment with self love?
Dr. Thema l That's right
Robin l Wow
Dr. Thema l Yeah.
Robin l Something, something I've also, you know, just and you you reinforce it in the book that I have started implementing way more in my life is, is this idea of just taking time to be quiet, sit and do nothing, or just put on, like, a very gentle playlist. Maybe it's like, you know, I sit and just like, in silence, or like, have a nap, or just like, these are things that like, unless I'm completely exhausted before. I mean, like, why I can no longer function. I'm at my desk. I'm falling asleep. Okay, Robin, you have to lay down for 20 minutes. But now I'm actually doing it, because it's like, this is part of my self care.
Dr. Thema l So good. There's a author, Trisha Hersey, who has a book called The Nap Manifesto. And the nap
Robin l Oh I like that
Dr. Thema l Right.Yes, and it makes such a difference, because our culture teaches us like you have to hustle, you have to grind, even to the point where people are told you need to make your your hobbies into a stream of income, right? If you're doing it, you're not making money off of it and people like, what's wrong with you, and it's late, this is just something that restores me or fulfills me or brings me joy. And so,
Robin l Yes
Dr. Thema l Yeah, being able to be still. But I'll also say to be able to enjoy stillness and silence is the result of healing, because so many of us, a part of our busyness, is not only trying to prove our self worth, but trying to run from the difficult memories and feelings, right? So I one of the things I had to clarify for myself is, am I busy or am I really healed? Right. Because sometimes we're distracted, but we're we have not really tended to the healing of our hearts, and so to slow down and be still means, some of the things I've been running from are going to show up and then for me to face it so I can actually heal and love myself.
Robin l Yeah. So how would you help someone who you know, like, there's one thing you talk about is self compassion. There's two things, right, gratitude and self forgiveness. Yeah, those are keys that you can turn to when you to honor yourself and give yourself more compassion.
Dr. Thema l That's right
Robin l You also talk about self understanding versus self judgment.
Dr. Thema l Right.
Robin l So what happens if you're bombarded by you know, you're just like your past things that you you're just totally regret, and you're just like you've hurt others or yourself and and how do you like, right?
Dr. Thema l Right.
Robin l What? What would be some key, some tools to work you through that so that you
Dr. Thema l Right. Yeah. So what happens is, we're often judging our past self based on what our present self knows, right. So instead, let me look back and see what was my life journey up until that point, right?
Robin l Oh, yeah.
Dr. Thema l Was I feeling? How had I been? So, for example, let's say you ended up in a terrible relationship, right. So you can blame yourself for like, oh, my God, why did I go with this person? Why did I go along? Why did I accept this? Well, if you look far enough back in your journey, you would discover like, why that was acceptable, like, whether it was familiar, because you had been mistreated before, whether it was in loneliness, not having a lot of options. Sometimes when we haven't been attended to, and someone comes along, then they're like, this is like better than nothing. And then you discover, unfortunately, the hard way, that nothing is actually better than that. And so by looking back at my journey, honestly and authentically, I can understand, right. I could understand what 20 year old me was thinking of why this felt like a good option.
Robin l Yes. And you know, when you when you say that, Dr Thema, it makes me think if I was like, if I was sitting in front of, you know, my 18 year old daughter, who's going through, you know, self regret or something like, let's just say, of something that happened to her, like, a year before, or whatever, right? How would I approach her in that,
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l Being a mother that loves her unconditionally.
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l Honey, like, let's just you this is, you know, like the compassion that we can give to others, yeah, we have to turn that on ourselves, and I think that we are so lacking in that, in that ability.
Dr. Thema l Yeah. I think one of the things that helps is sharing our failures
Robin l Sharing our failures. We don't do that enough right right?
Dr. Thema l No. We usually like share our wins, and so it's like when I tell people, oh, yeah, well, now I'm Dr Thema, past president of APA, but I didn't get into every graduate school I applied to. Like, that's never on your resume, right? Your rejections aren't listed. The wins are what's listed. And so realizing that, then it gives people a false impression that they are just winners and losers versus everyone has wins and losses, right? It's like, you know, my doctoral students, at a certain point in the program, they apply for internship, and I had a student who didn't get an internship, and so it was like, devastating. And then the following year, she got an internship at Yale. Now her resume will only say Yale, right. It will never list like that year where all of her classmates went ahead of her and she was left waiting for a year with nothing right. So the same for you know, relationships, when we share our stories, I think it helps people to give themselves grace that every you know, we all have had moments where we wish we'd made a different choice.
Isn't that the truth?
Yeah
Robin l Yep. I really like that. So you have foundations, foundational building blocks for a healthy relationship, and you break it down into seven. And I really like this, right. And I just thought we would go through them, because, I mean, that's what this that's what Let's Talk Love is all about. We're all here to gain tools and skills and and just ways of looking at relationships in in a different way, so that we can have healthy relationships with ourselves and with each other.
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l So the first is self love and self care. That's the first building block to having healthy relationships, is starting with yourself.
Dr. Thema l And we hear that, but people don't always get like the connection
Robin l No
Dr. Thema l But when I'm in a place of fun, if I'm in a place of self neglect, I'm not taking good care of myself, then I will be stressed out and irritable in the relationship. I will be projecting because I'm taking off putting my projecting, my exhaustion, on another person. So when I have not nourished me, I don't show up as my most sensitive self, as my most caring self, and then it's a lot of weight putting on the other person that they are responsible for my joy, that they only are responsible for my peace, and so that's that's heavy to to make someone in charge of some things that we need to give ourselves now they can contribute to it, right? I hope they enhance your joy or enhance your peace, but for us to start with that care for ourselves. The other thing I'm not in a good place of loving myself, it affects my decision making in terms of who I choose and who I'm attracted to, right? So as I heal my heart, my my preferences change, and what I find acceptable and unacceptable changes. So it's a good thing to nourish ourselves as we think about then creating, hopefully nourishing relationships.
Robin l And if you're coming from a place of like, I see it as like, if you're coming from a place of lack.
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l You're going to be attracting you're looking for somebody to fill that ga
Dr. Thema l Right. And some of the people who are attracted to you when you're in your most broken state, as you grow and heal, may resent your healing, right
Robin l Right
Dr. Thema l They liked being the rescuer, right? Or they liked you being a doormat or having no opinions, or you being insecure, and then as you start to heal and have some thoughts of your own, they can, like, reject that.
Robin l Yeah, yeah, really, really, like that. So all be it, number two, which, I mean, it's like, I say it's obvious, but it's love, right. And I think love in itself, it's like, this word is, it can be thrown around, right? But really, love is, like you said, it's, it's a decision, it's a verb. Love is about the actions,.
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l And I there's words of affirmation. Like, for me, love is all those things, right? It's how you're treating somebody, how you're treating yourself, and with your actions, your words, how are you speaking to somebody, like, even like, the bare necessity, which I think is respecting other people, like in how and your tone of voice, like, there's so many things that, what else would you say about the you know that that pillar, a foundation, block of love?
Dr. Thema l It's so important because, as you're naming, is a beautiful thing to express the words, but we Also look for is the truth of it showing up in our actions and our behavior consistently, especially in moments of conflict and moments of stress and moments of difficulty, right? That because I love you, those will be that will be a guardrail, right, that certain lines I won't cross because of my love for you, right certain behaviors or certain words that my love for you would protect me from, even entertaining. And so we want to think about not just Is this a good match because I find them attractive, or it's a good match because I'll be financially stable because they have some resources. But what is my heart in the presence of the person? Because people can feel that, right?
Robin l Oh, my goodness, yes
Dr. Thema l Yeah, yeah, you can feel when you're being tolerated versus when people are genuinely in a place of warm affection toward you, yeah
Robin l Oh my goodness. And you know this, this is all of these. Of course, these are, these are relational, relational building blocks for all relationships. Yes, yes. And that's the thing about your book, Dr Thema is like, this is, this is for our platonic relationships, you know, with our family, our friends, our colleagues, our children, our partners
Dr. Thema l It's true
Robin l Right?
Dr. Thema l Yeah.
Robin l And, you know, and like you said, it's like, there's, there's examples in here of it's so painful, right? If you think about it like you your family of origin, let's just say, and if it's a sibling or a parent and you, it's an unhealthy dynamic between you and this person that you you want to have a healthy relationship with
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l And let's say, in their presence, you're not feeling that love, you're not receiving that love. And it's such a very, it's so difficult, yeah, so what would you do in that situation, like, you say, like, if it's a very, if this is one sided relationship, you really have to look at that and is this in my best interest to continue
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l Being in this relationship, and you have to create boundaries wisely
Dr. Thema l Right. So one of the keys that we talk about in the book is communication. And so, you know, I would initially push back on the idea some people have of assuming the person knows, right? Sometimes we're like, they know, or they should know. We all show up to life differently. Have been exposed to different things, and it may not really be occurring to the person that like this for you is like vital, or that this act is like significant to you. I remember talking to a couple where when the husband came home at the end of the day, he was upset that his wife didn't come to greet him, right? She's doing whatever she's doing and so but for him, it was like, If you cared like and we've been apart for hours, when I walked in, you would be excited to see me?
Robin l Yes, yeah
Dr. Thema l But it was one of those sharings that it was really not on her mind, not because she didn't care. It's just not her norm. She never witnessed that growing up. It just
Robin l She didn't realize it was important to him
Dr. Thema l Yeah, she didn't know that that it was important to him. So there are some times where communication can help. Now, I really see for people, when you do communicate, you then can't condemn people for saying they're just doing it because I asked. Well, they are doing it because you asked.
Robin l You actually asked for that. Yes, right.
Dr. Thema l So especially if we have been a part of co creating relationships that are one sided, right? So if in my friendship circle, I'm always the strong one, I look out for everyone else, I take care of everyone else, and I never express my needs, then I wouldn't recommend, well, let's just cut off all these friends like that. Sometimes. If it's a pattern or a cycle, then I need to shift and give people a chance to show up for me, right? Instead of just saying, everyone's selfish. Well, have you ever let them know your heart, right, or let them know that you needed something, or sometimes when we're struggling, we disappear, so people only see us when we're shiny and put together, right? So, so I would say, if it's a one sided relationship, or it's just not meeting your needs, to first ensure you have communicated the needs. And yes, when we communicate it, it's also the way I communicate it. So that is not just a criticism. So for example, like the difference between saying to someone, you know, you never spend time with me and I'm tired of it. Okay, that's one communication versus, I really love when we spend time together. I wish we could do it more.
Robin l Yes
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l It's a completely different approach. You're saying something very similar
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l And, but it's coming from a place of love and
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l And what you need, expressing your need
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l Or I just, I really miss you, and I want us to spend more time together
Dr. Thema l Right, right. That feels it lands different. It feels different
Robin l Yeah. The other thing you talk about is having realistic expectations, yes, in your relationships, right? And you give a really good example of some a couple that were married for a long time, and Deborah and Jack. And Deborah is, you know, I believe it was like a literary like, Professor or something like, her job was all around writing and expressing and communicating that way. And he was like, this man that, you know, there's just no he didn't like to read like, you know. He just like, I'm not a words guy, right?
Dr. Thema l Yes.
Robin l And so he wanted to have, like, she wanted these long love letters and, like, beautiful cards at anniversaries. And you know, he would give her a card and said, Love you Jack, right? She's just like, what the heck, but, and so knowing that about right? So she would say to him, like, come on. Like, why not? Why can't you just write me a big, long, beautiful letter? And he's like, it's not me, babe, like, that's not me. But I'm sure he's showing her love in other ways, right? And so it's, it's really just, it does come down to communication.
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l But also it's like, you're not there to change someone
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l And that's the other thing, is that we have to see people for who they are, because we want to be seen for who we are.
Dr. Thema l Yes, so true. And you know, that was one of the points I made with the couple, is like, he didn't just start not being into, like, wordy cards, right from the beginning of you all getting to know each other, he's consistently himself. So, you know, you had this fantasy that he was going to become a poet,
Robin l Yeah
Dr. Thema l And so, yeah, deciding like and really seeing people and in a place of acceptance, so not like. If they change these five things, then I will love them. It's like, in their current form is this who you desire? Right to answer that honestly.
Robin l Yes. The other the story you tell a lot of great stories, and one of the stories I appreciated was just around, you know, there might be other people in your life that that are not accepting of the relationship that you have, right, right? I mean, talk about that. There's that one couple that have been together 50 years, neither one of their families were accepting because of religious differences or cultural differences and, and they were like, well, and so they make it, made it work between their families, like he would go visit sometimes if she didn't want to go because she wasn't, and, and vice versa.
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l But in the end, it's just like we choose each other.
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l And this is we want this to work, no matter our differences. That's right, beyond all the other influences they had around them. They really made it work, like, like, five decades in, right?
Dr. Thema l Yes, and it's such an important example, because, you know, some people feel like a force to choose, like, oh, to be with them, then I'd have to give up my family, or to love my family, I have to give up the person. And so being assertive and clear in your priorities and your honoring and also not forcing people to be subjected to places that make them feel unwanted.
Robin l Right. Yeah, so the fifth pillar is grace and forgiveness. And I think we did. We know we did talk about, like, this is really accepting people for who they are, but also the fact that we're gonna continually, always in our lifetime, makes make mistakes
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l And hurt each other. And not like, you know, yeah, but we have to be able to give each other, like, forgiveness
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l We do with our, I think about that with our with ourselves, like, forgive yourself for the mistakes you made. Like, I just, I keep thinking about my children, right? Because, like, they're little, they're growing, but we're always for human beings, we're gonna make mistakes, right,
Dr. Thema l Right. It's so true to be understanding of the fact that usually your friend or your partner has been this other way for the majority of their lives right. So now, what they're trying to do, like to develop a new habit or to shift, it takes effort, effort over time. It can feel awkward at times. So like they're, you know, do I see signs of growth? Do I see consistency with that, even if it's not perfection, but it's improving and increasing. Because, you know, one of the challenges is when we don't acknowledge people's efforts, then they can give up because they feel like it's like, I can't win. So no is to acknowledge the growth while still holding the standard of saying, like, I still don't like, you know, the way you spoke to me, or that this, or that you forgot this thing that's important to me, but I do see that you're working on it, and I need us to keep working on it. Yeah
So what would you say around, like, being, being able to be flexible, because flexibility is the build is one of the building blocks.
Yes, is that, if we're gonna have relationship over time, people are gonna change, right. Sometimes, it's not a matter of like that people are tricking us or deceiving us. It's just, if you're together for years, what people's interests are can change, you know, the way they approach life can change. Their perspective can shift. And so to not be so locked in, to say like, I'm gonna hold us hostage, to like who we were however many years ago, right? It may look different
Robin l You are. I mean, I want to change and grow in this life. Yeah, that's something that I strive for. I don't want to be the same Robin I was five years ago, 10 years like, okay, the core of me, people know, but
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l It's I want to be growing and changing hopefully for the better, right?
Dr. Thema l Yeah we hope it's in the better. We hope it's in the similar direction. But, you know, we have to allow for that, and to see that. And I have this saying I wrote of blessed are the flexible for they shall not be stressed out that surprises are gonna happen. So, like, okay, like, you know, partner got a job offer in another city, or they got laid off, right? Okay, so, like, what's our new normal?
Robin l So now what?
Dr. Thema l Yeah, yeah
Robin l So love the seventh. I think it's so important your building block of co creating joy, you have to have joy. I mean, joy
Dr. Thema l That's right, because then we just start to look at each other as duty or obligation or like a distant roommate. And so, you know, we have to be intentional about planning things that we're going to enjoy together
Robin l Yes, just special time. And it doesn't have to be something extravagant. It's like,
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l Just and something novel, like new experiences
Dr. Thema l That's right. So it doesn't have to be expensive, you know it's just like, what will we enjoy that where you don't always do but we want to make priority to do it.
Robin l Yeah I really like that. So, you know, the one thing I also really like Dr Thema around when keys to a healthy romantic relationship is highlighting the importance of looking for the green flags.
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l We don't actually talk about this a lot when, like, especially the dating talks
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l It's like, what are the red flags? Where are the red flags? The yellow flags? Okay. But you're like, if, what if you were to a focus, I mean, you know, I just think, okay our hearts are always giving us information. Our bodies are okay. I want to listen when I'm in the presence of somebody that I don't know, new you're dating, but you also, if you go in with this attitude of, like, looking for the green flags. That's a can you tell us about that?
Dr. Thema l It's a game changer, because I think especially when people have been disappointed in love, you know, we become so afraid of it happening again that we enter into social situations, or even on these dating apps with all this armor and like, looking for the signs that this person's going to be terrible.
Robin l Right
Dr. Thema l So I don't want to close my eyes to like, if there are issues, sure I want to see them. But when my like frame or my stance is like looking for the bad then I will assume all kinds of things are bad and possible bad signs where I don't even give it a chance to actually have a real conversation, or to meet up with the person, or to see, even if there are places where we have differences, could we still align that this person doesn't have to be my clone for us to enjoy each other, right? And so looking for how does my heart feel in this person's presence? How do they speak to me? Are they they're consistent in following up? They say, you know, I want to go, I want to take you out this weekend. Does that happen? Always getting stood up, noting how they treat other people, so not just you. They may be trying. Impress you, but I see like their kindness, both around the people they talk about, but also my observed interactions with them, also thinking about paying attention to how people talk about past relationships, right? Is there any self awareness, or it's always somebody else's fault, able to recognize their own growth of, you know, again, that relationship I was immature, or, you know, I communicated this way, which didn't really help. And so now I'm really thoughtful about communicating in a different way, so that shows self awareness and self growth
Having self awareness and accountability.
Yes, yeah.
Robin l So important
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l Yeah, the blame game. It's not kind of, it's just very unhealthy.
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l Yeah. You also talk about how safety is so key and so, and I think that, you know, there's a lot to say around safety. It's not, you know, obviously, if you're an abusive relationship, there's no room for, you know. It's just like, you know, whatever you can do you need to get out of that. Like, it's just, there's no other. Yes, everything you can do to get out of an abusive relationship. But how else, if you were to, you know, if somebody was, if you're talking to somebody and you're seeing like, how else can unsafety in a relationship show itself?
Dr. Thema l Yes. So you know, one, a way we often don't think about or recognize, is more like emotional abuse. So we think about like, Is my heart safe with this person? So for example, people who, when you all are in a group, like to make you the butt of the joke, right? So they enjoy humiliating you right? And, you know, and it's supposed to all be a joke, and everyone's laughing, but like, how do you feel? Are you smiling politely because you're embarrassed? Or, you know, do you feel honored by this person? Right? It can also be not feeling emotionally safe if they give you signs that their faithfulness is not sturdy, right? So serial infidelity, flirting with people in and outside of your presence that doesn't feel safe. I've had clients who have body image issues and then the person they're dating knows this and makes comments about their body then, so now you're trying to make love to someone that you're hiding from.
Robin l Right
Dr. Thema l So, yeah, does that your heart doesn't feel safe there.
Robin l And your body sure doesn't either.
Dr. Thema l That's right
Robin l Your whole self
Dr. Thema l Right. Yeah.
Robin l Right
Dr. Thema l Yep. So feeling nourished, honored, respected, cared for, that they consider you in their actions and in their words, then that feels safe. Another one is in terms of emotional safety that I see a lot of is, can you express your concerns without them turning in rage or a big one tactic is the silent treatment, right? So if you share your feelings, are you punished for that? And that's not emotionally safe. What is manipulation is I'm trying to or even they'll make a statement of like, oh, I hate women who complain, and the reason I like you is you don't nag me or complain, right? Which is the hook to say, like, keep your mouth shut and, you know, we won't have a problem. So now, if I actually have a concern, now feeling like it will be a bad thing for me to express myself
Robin l Yep.
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l You know, you give an example in the book that I was I so resonate with, you know, I've been in relationships where I lost my voice, and it's like, how is that even possible? Like, how did Robin lose her voice? You know, because I consider myself to be such a strong, you know, a good, good communicator and but, but if you're with somebody, every time you approach them with something that's very important, you just get shut down like an absolute, like, literal, wall goes up
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l Like, this discussion is a no go.
Dr. Thema l Yeah.
Robin l And it keeps happening over and over and over again. If you just keep hitting that wall
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l Well, it's you're conditioned. You become conditioned
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l You just shut your mouth around it
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l So
Dr. Thema l Yeah.
Robin l And that's just, it happens over time. It happens like, that's the consistent behavior, so I'm not even gonna approach it anymore
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l And that's not, that's one topic, okay, there's another topic that's off off limits, and there's another topic that's off limits. So you think about it, it's like your voice literally gets so then it turns into an act of, like, what I what I was learning from you, is like, what, self betrayal, almost like self self abandonment, self abandonment
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l I'm abandoning my own voice and my own opinions
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l To save this relationship, or, yeah, to keep the peace or something.
Dr. Thema l That's right. And I'm so glad you gave that example, because sometimes we can think that would only happen if someone was art, was quiet or insecure. But no, as you said, it can be subtle and gradual over time, like this, silencing, which is, you know, psychologically you think about, you know, the category one, there's a category of people who are drawn to people who are very much in a shell, and a kind of say, like, easier to control. But then there are also people who are drawn to you as this, like, vivacious person, but then wanting to control, like that, that light, right.
Robin l Oh yes, yeah. Oh my gosh, you're right. Dr, Thema I've never heard it said like that
Dr. Thema l Yes.
Robin l But there was stuff that there was so many ways like, and I could see it in my last two relationships
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l And it's like, how did that happen? Well, yeah, over time, you could reflect and be like, this is how it happened. And it wasn't just this way. It was in this way, this way and this way.
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l And I really, yeah, it's just, I look back and I'm like, gosh darn it, but I'm not, I'm not in it anymore
Dr. Thema l Yes good for you
Robin l But it's being you, but it does really makes you think, like,
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l Being so much more on how important it is to be more self aware
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l Self understanding,
Dr. Thema l Yes, yes. Because this is again, like, do their words line up with their actions, right? Because they're saying they're they adore me. They're so into me, but yet they want to silence me. So, you know, that doesn't match.
Robin l So I also wanted to talk about, I love this you talk about gentleness
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l And how important gentleness is in your relationships
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l And releasing the harsh warrior. Because I'm surrounded by, you know, I was surrounded by strong women, and I've got like, strong, you know, in my family and my friends and like, and I could see myself as my younger, younger self, like when I first started and, and it's just like you're asserting yourself. We're taught to be, like, independent and assert yourself, and, you know, be just as educated as men and all this, right. So it just makes me think of that
Dr. Thema l Yes.
Robin l And I think men too are still raised to be strong, you know, and all this. So it's like this warrior energy and dynamic is still very strong
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l In culture
Dr. Thema l Yes.
Robin l And we're not talking a lot about being gentle.
Dr. Thema l No, no. We're not taught gentleness. We we like often are told to equate gentleness with weakness or with being a victim
Robin l Yes, but it's not
Dr. Thema l Right. So we bring that warrior energy to our relationships, right, being combative or on edge or like looking for the offense, or even approaching, let's say there's a disagreement, and approaching it like there's winners and losers, right? Like I'm
Robin l So common
Dr. Thema l I'm gonna win this and so it, you know, what I like to do, like to say to people, is, you know, I appreciate the experiences in life that cause you to become a warrior, and that those circumstances would have consumed you like if you didn't develop that fight that you have so and there will be times in life where
Robin l You're gonna have to pull out your warrior, right? Oh, yeah
Dr. Thema l Times where things will happen. But the issue is, we don't want to live in that mode where we're perpetually that's exhausting. And you also end up missing out on a lot of good experiences. If I'm fighting everybody all the time.
Robin l Yes
Dr. Thema l Yeah,
Robin l Oh my goodness. So they Yeah, so how do you how do you, how are you showing up
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l In gentleness
Dr. Thema l Right
Robin l Like, how are you teaching that?
Dr. Thema l Yes, yeah. So a part of it, I like to use the phrase sacred pause, right? Because if I'm used to being a warrior and something happens, I don't like, if I respond quickly, I'm going to be in fight mode. Yeah, right, because that's just like what I'm used to. So you know, when somebody says something or something happens, to give myself permission to pause before I respond, to pause, to breathe, to digest, and I would even say, to help people with measuring the level of offense. You know, some people can't do this. When I say, like, on a scale one to 10, some people make everything a 10, not everything's a 10, right? So now you're, like, coming out guns blazing, and they just looked at you wrong
Right measuring the level of offense. I like that.
So I'm gonna let my response match the level of offense. And, like, not everything needs me.
Robin l Not everything even needs a response.
Dr. Thema l Yeah, exactly. I just say some things are not drama worthy, right? Sounds like a lot of dramas take a lot of energy, and, you know, a great example of that is on social media. You know, people will write ridiculous things, so I don't want to let them ruin my day, and I don't want to go get into a back and forth, right? Yeah.
Robin l Yeah, I think that comes with I feel more gentleness and more ease in my life, and sometimes, exactly, I just won't even say anything. Yeah, I just stay silent. What the heck's the point? It's all good, like less things bother me
Dr. Thema l Right. Well, it's connected to you talking about loving yourself, right? Sometimes we're responding intensely because a part of us wonders if it's true, right? You say something insulting, and a part of me feels like you might be right. So I gotta convince you and the world and myself that it's not true. But when I'm clear about me and somebody says something ridiculous, it may be disappointing, it might hurt a bit, but like at my core, I know it's not true. Yeah.
Robin l You know, the more you practice staying in your lane as well, it's like, it's like, that's not, that's their stuff. It's not mine, yes, yeah, my street right now is feeling pretty clean.
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l That's that stuff they're trying to throw at me is not mine
Dr. Thema l Right, right. And I heard this quote. I can't credit it. I'm not sure what's from, but it says something like, sometimes, the closest someone will come to greatness is taking a bite out of you. And so it's then, right like, they're, like, they're they're nagging at you. They're trying to get your attention. They're trying to get a reaction out of you, because they don't have the psychology to be able to say, you know, I admire you right? Then it comes out as some like dig or like them trying to yeah, them, trying to get you to engage with them.
Robin l You say to live in gentleness compared to harshness, you must surround yourself with the right people.
Dr. Thema l Yes, yeah.
Robin l And you know, I you say to invite in gentleness list the people with whom you feel safe, respected, comfortable and at ease and to the extent possible, maximize your time with them.
Dr. Thema l Yes.
Robin l And, you know, I this, is this, this, I think, is just just such an excellent reflection. Because if you're thinking about this, like, if you think about like the top, like, 7,8,9, 10, or even like 2,3,4, or five, people you are spending your most time with in your day, in your week, in your month, in your year
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l Are people that, are those people giving you all those things, right? Are you feeling safe? Are you feeling at ease? Are you in their presence, what is your heart telling you in their presence? And this is what you keep, this is what you're teaching. Is like the reflecting on your heart, how, because your body, your heart's going to tell you
Dr. Thema l Yeah, yeah, that, you know, I've heard it said this way, when we feel safer, we become softer, right? So if I'm in your presence and I don't need to defend, right, that I don't have to be warrior, then I can have more ease and I can relax. So that's healing. That's why we talk about some of the healing we do is in relationship
Robin l Yep.
Dr. Thema l And I discover like that not everyone is out to get me. That's healing.
Robin l And so there's so many, so many gems in your book, Dr thema, and I think it's like, you do address like, you know, there's so many ways that you can, let's say, let's say you do discover, okay, I've got three people in my circle where I do not feel ease, I do not feel safe, I do not, and so you got, there's a lot in here, around around, helping heal that, right. So I really hope that people read your book, because it's just full of guidance and wisdom and you and ways that we can, we can actually, like, really create more healthier dynamics, healthier dynamics and relationships in our lives.
Dr. Thema l So thank you so much. I so enjoy talking with you, and definitely hope that people will go out read the book. And I do like to say there's also an audio version. So if you
Robin l The audio is so good, I always do the audio. I'm so glad you read, because I loved hearing your voice.
Dr. Thema l Yeah
Robin l I like having the book to underline and dog. You know, both. I think it's important both. Yeah, that's my but I'm going to close with a blessing based on all the learnings from your book this week. May we choose to take our healing into our own hands by no longer being willing to pay the price of self neglect, self abandonment, powerlessness and waiting for circumstances and others to change. May we know that love does not require convincing genuine love is available, and to get it, we have to let false love go. Anyone who doesn't want to be with the truth of us is not intended to be in our lives. And may we welcome sacred love into our lives and sacred pauses.
Dr. Thema l Yes
Robin l May we heal our hearts, open our hearts and expand our hearts in beautiful ways, and this book really helps us do that. So thank you, Dr thema Bryant
Dr. Thema l Thank you so much. I have so enjoyed the conversation.
Robin l Me too.