Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 4 Episode 9 with Dr. Tracy Dalgleish | Transcript

20.07.23

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Welcome, everyone to Let's Talk Love. I'm Robin Ducharme your host and today I had an excellent conversation with a fellow Canadian, Dr. Tracy Dalglish. Dr. Tracy is a clinical psychologist and relationship expert, who is on a mission to help couples break old relationships cycles and find joy in their relationships again. Today we talked about Dr. Tracy's new book, which is being released on September 12 2023. called, I Didn't Sign Up For This. In the book, she weaves storytelling with practical therapeutic advice, sharing case studies of four couples, along with challenges she faced in her own marriage, to help each of us uncover old patterns, and finally get unstuck in our relationships. Tracy is very relatable, easy to talk to and learn from. And I hope our conversation brings you insights to help you improve the relationships with those you hold most dear. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love.

Hello, everyone and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk love. I'm so happy to be welcoming our guest. And I feel like my new friend Tracy dalgleish. Welcome to our show.

Dr. Tracy Dalgleish | Thank you so much. Your voice is so soothing. And I know we're just going to have a great conversation.

Robin Ducharme | Your voice is so soothing. I know you get told that all the time. But I've been listening to you and your podcast and reading your book, your new book, which has has not been released, and I'm releasing this podcast, but it's gonna be released in September. And I so enjoyed reading it, I'm gonna hold it up for people that are watching this, I Didn't Sign Up for This. I think this is something that if you are married or in a relationship, you end up in your relationship challenges which we all do. There's so many people that can resonate even with that one sentence. I didn't sign up for.

Dr. Tracy Dalgleish | And that that's where that came from as well is that time and time again and session I kept hearing my clients say I didn't sign up for this, whether it was the family that they were working on their blend, they were blending the couple of tackling their mental load, it just kept showing up and of course, right we show up in our relationships in a certain way. And then over time they change.

Robin | They sure do. And I think it's only natural. But I think we all forget that, that you know the beginning of your relationship. You talked about this in your book, it's just we have that beautiful, falling in love, infatuation. The stuff that the movies are made over. And over that time, especially when you when you come up against the greatest challenges in our lives like losing someone we love having children. Let's say you're you're getting somebody gets sick, the all these big crisis they are crisis he's like even having children is a crisis, because you're like that you're doing it for the first couple of years. So it's only natural that your relationship is going to be taxed,

Dr. Tracy | Taxed and changed. Absolutely. I like to remind people and I think this is something that we don't talk enough about in the sense of our seasons in our relationship that we are not supposed to stay in that honeymoon stage. And as we say goodbye to that stage, we say hello to this deepening of intimacy and knowing each other in a different way. And for many people, this does offer the opportunity to do a different type of work within themselves and also on their partnerships.

Robin | Exactly. I love that. And so your book is sharing your clinical experience as a couples counselor with four couples, and also your personal experience with your with your relationship with your husband, Greg, which I really valued. I thought that was a great way to weave in your personal life. Because you are human you are but you're in you're also very trained. So it's like how are you navigating your own relationship and your own challenges which are inevitable, coupled coupled with the people that you are? You're working with?

Dr. Tracy | Yes

Robin | So can you tell us about that Tracy, Why you decided to bring your own story into it?

Dr. Tracy | You know, the first thing is we really learn from stories that we are able to see ourselves through other people's stories and then to identify with parts of other people and then question ourselves of how does this apply to me and how might I show up differently? It And one of the things that I'm appreciating about the change in the therapy literature is just how many more therapists are showing up in social media, who are showing up with real stories, showing their, their identities. And, and this is so different Robin, from the first day of my PhD in 2006, which was, you know, make sure you are not on social media in any way and do never share anything about yourself, be the blank slate.

Robin | Wow. Yes, Yeah.

Dr. Tracy | And so the world of therapists has really changed. And I hear more and more from clients, how powerful it is, when they you know, of course, in the therapeutic role, my story does not come up in the therapy room. And yet, when we can see these therapists talking openly about everyday struggles that we all have, it's that common humanity, that is what's healing for us. So when I was writing this book, talking about four other relationships, that you know, the everyday relationship struggles that we have, it felt like such a mess, to not include my story in it. Because I didn't want to keep that barrier. That barrier, in a way, protects me from feeling shame, it protects me from being vulnerable and talking about my own struggles. And we know that when we build walls, and maybe we appear perfect in some way, or like we all have it together, that shame inside of us also only builds. And so opening that curtain and sharing that yes, despite knowing all of the skills and tools, using them all day long with my clients, going home was a completely different story. And I think Robin, what we can appreciate is that nobody can prepare you for some of the struggles that are going to show up in your relationship in general, but then also in your relationship once you have children.

Robin | Yes, that's guaranteed. And I think what you just really talked about there was just how important it is for us to be and how hard it is to be vulnerable. Yes. And understand like and your book also just emphasizes so much around understanding yourself to the greatest capacity can and continually learning about yourself so that you can be better in your relationship. And how do we do that?

Dr. Tracy | How do we do late, there's a chapter in there that after I wrote it, I'd said to my editor, this is I do not like this at all. And I know that sometimes we really need to show that vulnerable part because someone is going to learn from seeing that. And it is a healing part of doing this work as well. And also being creative. It's so cool to be able to share a story to be able to share my own story. And so yeah, it is I'm so excited to see how these stories land, with readers and with others, because they are the stories of everyday couples that show up at my office.

Robin | Yes. So you say many of our repeated relationship conflicts stem from deep unmet needs, unfulfilled longings and above all the mistaken belief that dependency is bad.

Dr. Tracy | Yes. Yes.

Robin | That was a big quote, I know what do you want to say about that Tracy?

Dr. Tracy | So from my attachment background, is that for a long time now, Dr. John Bowlby has helped us shape our understanding. He's the father of attachment theory, he's helped us to understand that as babies, we need comfort, we need to be soothed, need to be held close, because that helps us to feel safe in the world, which then helps us to go and explore the world. And then we've swung into this idea that we don't want to be codependent, we don't want to lose ourselves, okay, let's be independent. I've got this all on my own, I can go forward on my own. And yet when we silo ourselves off, we keep our own feelings and needs in words, we don't share our experiences with other people, we don't build those connections. We don't build that security or the interdependence, which is what I talked about in the book, healthy interdependence. When we don't do that, then we don't do so well. We know that the research shows that loneliness is a huge risk to people in terms of their mental and physical health. And that when we are connected with other people, our risks of anxiety and depression are lower.

Robin | I think that's beautiful because it's like this reminder that even when you when you are in relationship, okay, if you're gonna if we're gonna be modeling trying to be interdependent with somebody, let's say you're going through, you're just you're, you're dysregulated okay, I'm upset right now or I'm feeling really anxious. One way that we can And you said, out, like help each other soothe, or I mean, you're just touching your partner's hand. Yes, for example, or having a hug. And this is something as when we were children, that helped a lot. It's like, okay, I see you, I'm the mom. And I've got, you know, my three kids. Okay, I can see your, your disregulated right now, let's have a hug, right? And it helps so much. But as adults, we're just so kind of your inside run the other risk when we're swinging the other side too independent. And we're not even helping each other with the self soothing her.

Dr. Tracy | Right, right, well, and being able to say to your partner, actually, Robin, this reminds me of a statement that I commonly hear from people today, which is, I'm not responsible for your feelings, which taps into that independent, autonomous space. Yes, of course, we can recognize that I don't cause you to have your feelings. Your feelings are yours. And that at the core of what we're trying to do to build interdependence is to balance autonomy and connection, autonomy, and differentiation individuation with intimacy. And to do both of those things. It says, yes, those feelings are yours. And I can see how I impact you. And how can we then move forward together, that's the consideration of both self and other. And it is the hardest things that we have to do in our relationship. Because we are so fearful of losing I, we think of people getting into relationships, and that common statement of like, well, I don't want to lose my, my own hobbies, or I have to make sure that I always get to see my friends, rather than it's a negotiation, as a co-creation of what your worlds are going to look like, together, don't lose the I. And how do we do we eat together? How do we do us?

Robin | Right. And I was thinking of a podcast that I listened to of yours. And what the this man was telling a story about he and his wife, and he was leaving his water glass on the counter. Every morning, he wanted to have his vitamins right on water glass on the counter. And she repeatedly was voicing, please put your water glass away, please put your water glass away, we've all been in this or please, please put your socks in the bin instead of beside the bed. Like there's, these are requests that are shared over and over and over again. And I think we can all relate. And if you're in a relationship with somebody, you're probably the things that you're that we're each doing to each other that we may not be happy about. But if I'm if I'm repeatedly asking somebody that I love to do something that's important to me, and that person is disregarding what I'm asking them to do. Whether they're just not thinking of it, or they're just deciding not to do it. Now that's the difference. Right?

Dr. Tracy | Yes. And then this goes back to the longings that we hold. So the fights are often not about the cup left beside the sink. It's not about the socks on the floor. But instead what we know. It's that we have these underlying core needs and longings, these attachment longings or attachment fears that often sound like, do I matter to you? Am I important? Do you hold me in your mind? Am I enough for you? And so then when the partner sees the water glass, beside the sink, it symbolizes is like don't? Aren't you listening to me, right? That's the upstairs stuff. Why don't you listen to me? Why can't you ever put your water glass? How many times do I have to tell you? Right? This is the upstairs piece. But underneath that? It sounds like it feels like you don't even see me. It feels like I don't matter to you. And that's on on one partners. And I know the story you're thinking of but then on the other partner there, there's there underneath peace often sounds like I can never get it right with you. I'm not, ill I ever be enough for you? I feel like I'm always failing you. And so then what we're talking about here is this negative interaction cycle that couples get stuck in and they become rigid and entrenched over time, where we stop sharing our needs and softer emotions. And we get stuck more in the criticisms, the defensiveness and those negative hostile emotions that go back and forth.

Robin | And that's what I mean, when when you are with your clients in your therapy room. And in the book, you are sharing stories of these four couples, where it's like what are those underlying unmet needs? That they're either one or both of them are showing up? Right? Yes, absolutely. So that you can figure out how to get these the water glasses.

Dr. Tracy | The problem solving that comes down the road right but if we can't save our partner, right I'm so sorry, you know, I can totally see how when I laid that glass out that you feel like I don't think of you, I get that. And now that I understand what that glass of water symbolizes, this is something that I can really work on. And I want you to know that I'm trying my best here. And I might make mistakes. And so I want you to know that if I leave it out, that's not about you. It's about I was running to my next meeting, and had to hurry up the door. Right. So it's this ebbing and flowing back and forth that I think sometimes what we get stuck in is this idea that I'm telling you my need, and you should meet it. It is a code red alarm bells are ringing, put the glass in the dishwasher. Instead of understanding that for many of us, our needs are not code red, they're not alarm bells ringing, that our needs might have to be met in other ways, or other times and that need when it comes to our relationships, we want to make sure we are meeting the needs of emotional closeness and connection, that physical connection. Those are things that we really need to be meeting. But then the other stuff kind of just floats around. And we want to make sure that we're nurturing that over time.

Robin | Right? So one of the first questions that you ask your or, maybe it's not one of the first but in the therapy room, you ask this question, when did the disconnection begin? And so why is that? Uh, I can, that's a good question. When did this all start? Right? And so why is that really important? And then how are you? Because I imagine if if they're saying, and in your case, you share the story of you and Greg, and how they're, you know, there was a few things in the beginning, like you living apart, you had a longest relationship. I mean, there's, that's, that's already disconnection because you had to figure out how to connect in the beginning of relationship, which is a struggle for a lot of people, long term relationships. But then really, you share the struggles of being new parents, and how that is a struggle that people that have had kids want to doesn't matter how many it is. That is a natural disconnection that would happen to a lot of couples.

Dr. Tracy | Yes, absolutely. When did the disconnection began? So what what I look for as I look for the story of how they tell it, and is it is there a clear marker for one person is the marker happening event for both? Like we had children, and that was the marker for us. Some people have this slow disconnection that happens over time where work stressors might increase, maybe we stop prioritizing Saturday night date night, we start then seeing friends more, we start talking about our insight, good stuff to the coworker beside us at work. And so then over time, you start to become roommates. This can happen with or without kids, it can happen at any point in your relationship. And so that disconnection piece can sometimes be a strong marker. Or it can be this slow dwindling of, or a slow unraveling in your relationship

Robin | Yup. So just going back to what you just said about like, let's just say you're just an example would be you're talking to your colleagues or your friends more about how you're feeling on the inside, rather than sharing that with your, your partner. And so that, are you just not committed, you're just you're you have, you're not communicating your issues, right? That you say when you try to avoid a negative emotional response from your partner by not bringing up something difficult, you guarantee that they will indeed be angry and upset. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. It's like you're trying not to do something to kind of flake or make relationship better or not heavy. But if you are going to be building up something negative in your in your relationship.

Dr. Tracy | I'm chuckling because I know that the story that's in the chapter of Greg and I write it does become a self fulfilling prophecy. Right, in that, and that is that again, that's that intimacy and connection piece, which is so hard because we have to go inwards inside of ourselves and say, What's my experience right here? What's happening for me? How am I feeling? What do I need? How am I going to communicate this, it's quite complex, especially when so many of us don't understand what it is that we feel in need. And we spend a lot of time looking outwards. And so when we've got this inside experience, then we have to do the we piece, which is then crossing the bridge and sharing it with your partner. And what gets in the way for people. And I talked about this in some of the stories. So one, you know that the classic people pleasing, I don't want to upset them. If I share this with them, they're going to be upset and I don't want to rock the boat better if I don't share that. Right so we get into all of these different patterns where then we stop sharing the good and the hard stuff?

Robin | Yes. I never thought about that. How it's like that you can't it's, you're, you're withholding both.

Dr. Tracy | Right. And then sometimes what happens, and I've seen this with my clients is when we can talk about, hey, let's start building these conversations. Many people will say to me, Dr. Tracy, it's been so long, I don't even know where to start. I don't even know if I want to start. And that's really hard. And so then what we do and I was talking about this recently is what we tend to do then is we stay stuck in that cycle. And so we go to our partner and say, like, well, if you just opened up more to me, if you just told me more about this, you never hug me. So we point outwards, rather than going inwards and saying things like, I really miss you. Let's have a hug. Right? Like, let's come and build together and be close? And how can we take those steps to build that I created these 100 questions for couples to ask each other. And the feedback I'm getting is that they're, they're very good questions. They're very good question. They're having so much fun. And Greg, and I took them on a date night, one night, and we had a blast doing it, right, because what you're doing is you're stepping out of the day to day, the transactional stuff and And research shows that couples spend less than I think it's 30 minutes a week, talking. And it's all transactional. When I pulled my community, they said they split, I think it was 50 to 60% said they spend less than 10 minutes a day really connecting with their partner.

Robin | So in talking about the kids talking about work, talking about your work, are they sorry, that's that is not your true connection to each other

Dr. Tracy | No, that connection is the going inwards and going to the inside piece where it says, What's it like to be you inside? What's happening this week? What's something stressful? That's going to be coming up for you? And how can we build that connection? But of course, Robin, all of that dynamic stuff gets in the way. And it's really hard then to be able to communicate about any of it?

Robin | Yeah, well, I really like that so that you've got four C's, that you help you teach clients and couples from moving forward. Yes. And curiosity. That's what your list helps people do? Is it because you we can get into this idea that we know this person inside out, when in fact that there's so much of ourselves, that nobody knows, really, right? Even your best friend doesn't know this about you or that about you. And so you're you want to be more curious. And actually, that's a that's an important piece to reconnect.

Dr. Tracy | Yeah. So when we think about that water glass example, then we can say to our partner, what does this represent for you? What's this really about? Like the I hear you? Actually, you've asked me several times, and I'm curious, could you tell me? What does it symbolize? How do you feel when you see it there? How do you feel when you have to tell me again, to put it away? Right, that curiosity can really help to build that understanding, which then leads to the next C, which is compassion. And we know that when it comes to our partnerships, we are really good at looking at the other person a little more harsh than what we would in terms of our children, or our dearest friends, it's so easy to hold that empathy for our friends and kids. You know, we say things like, yes, of course, you're struggling, that makes sense that you're struggling, but when your partner comes home and said, you know, so and so didn't show up to the meeting, and it's been such a hard day, we tend to respond with less compassionate empathy. And sometimes it sounds like okay, well, you know, that's not a big deal. So let's just move on.

Robin | So well, and let me tell you about my kids are doing this.

Dr. Tracy | Let me tell you about all kids who were melting down, and nobody ate their lunch and threw it against the wall. And you think you had a hard day, right? So we get to this comparison, right? And I think that struggle around compassion. It's also really about our expectations of our partner, we expect our partners to have it all together, and to be able to regulate their emotions on their own and to yeah, to be independent, right, and to not need to be dependent and yet, in our relationships, we need to have that ability to come together and co- regulate and share our emotions and feelings and connect.

Robin | Yes. So we've, we've talked a lot about, you know, all these ways that we can continue having healthy, healthy relationship with our partners. But I, you know, I'm curious before we go, I don't mean to leave this on a negative note, but I mean, there's definitely some relationships that you are seeing that aren't, it's not in the best interest of those two to stay together. And I myself don't think that that is, I mean, there's, I don't think that that's a failure. You know, this this idea that because that don't stay together or a failure. Right? So what is your approach there Tracy on how you can you're coaching people to be like, this is not this may not be the right path for you to stay together? And what are those indicators are just like how? And that's a big question.

Dr. Tracy | But it's a big question because gosh, that really depends. And I think in my coaching and therapists position, it really, it's never for me to tell you how things are going to go, I don't have a crystal ball, I can predict that. And we can say that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, which leads us then to a few questions. And of course, when I talk about this, I'm talking about this from a perspective where there's the absence of emotional and physical abuse. And I think that's really

Robin | Oh, yeah

Dr. Tracy | Labeled that right. So so how do you know you need to go is when there is physical and emotional abuse? That is a clear sign to go. And the other situations, though, we can ask ourselves, is my partner willing to change with me are we both willing to do the work and to show up and go inwards and then work on each other and work on ourselves and each other? And then the other pieces if they're not, which is the case for many people and one of the stories in the book, where her partner was not willing to come to therapy, which is a common experience, where I end up doing individual therapy for a couple of problems, is then we have to say to ourselves, Am I willing to accept this stuff about my partner? And what would life look like if I'm willing to accept that, and then to do my own work? And so if I'm looking to my partner, to acknowledge me, and to say, you're a great mom, you're doing this work, you know, and they're not able to? Can I get that somewhere else in a healthy way? And still be in this relationship? Can I accept that my partner and I, right, because we get into relationships, and Robin, I see this all the time is that we get into relationships. And we we, we then want to change the person in front of us. That's not a good relationship to be in, if you are trying to change

Robin | No, it's not

Dr. Tracy | Because they are who they are. They have always been who they are. And yeah, so interesting working with couples, because what we see as the thing that drew them together, when I trace it through their histories, it's the very thing that's pulling them apart. She says, Oh, he was so relaxed and laid back when we first started dating, and today, she says, He never plans dates for me. He can't get the family organized. Right? Or he'll say something. If I'm thinking of a heterosexual relationship, he, he says, she was so organized, I love that she brought this sense of leadership into our relationship. And I could see how she was a leader at work. And I love that. And then today, she says, she he says, she's so demanding, I can never get it. Right. Right. So it's like, the very thing that drew you together is what's drawing you apart. And then of course, that third option there when we think about what to do in that situation is then to end the relationship. And that is that you have explored all other options. And I say to people, you know, often this belief that shows up in my office is i, if it's not bad, as in an app, there is no, you know, my partner hasn't gambled away my money, or there's no physical or emotional abuse, they don't have a drinking problem or a substance use problem, then I should just stay in the relationship, right. And I think what we're seeing today, what we're seeing is you you can leave a relationship, if it's no longer working for you. And that's okay, it's hard. And you get to make that choice today. You don't have to have something so awfully bad to say, this relationship isn't working for me anymore.

Robin | Right? Well, Tracy, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. And read your book, which I just thought was fantastic.

Dr. Tracy | Thank you.

Robin | I Didn't Sign Up For This. We're just coming out in September, September 12, and September 12. Wonderful. And I always close our podcasts with a blessing. And it's it is a quote from your book. that I always incorporate into a blessing because I think we can all leave here with some light, and insight. So may we take leaps every day to find true love and belonging. Because to love and be loved is a risk we must be willing to take to live a meaningful life. I think that's just so true. Thank you, Tracy Dalgleish for being with us today.

Dr. Tracy | Thank you so much, Robin, and thank you to everyone who's listened and joined us today.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com To become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com. We read everything you sent. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, and stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening. Take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey