Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode #11 with Shaun Galanos | Transcript

22.06.02

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hi, everyone. Welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today I'm sharing the hour with Shaun Galanos, who is a tremendous love coach and master communicator. It was such a pleasure talking with him about emotional availability. How do we show up in relationships? How can we be vulnerable and clear, all while being loving? I think it's a challenge we all face in our lives. Shaun reminds us to ask for what we want in our relationships. We talk about the cautions of oversharing, what red flags really mean, and what to look out for in others who may not be emotionally available. This is a conversation I am so happy to have had. Enjoy. Welcome to the let's talk love podcast where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love regardless of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Robin Ducharme | Hello, everyone, and welcome to an exciting episode of Let's Talk Love. I am excited to have our guest, somebody who I admire and have worked with a number of occasions Shaun Galanos. Thank you for joining us.

Shaun Galanos | So happy to be here. You've got a great podcast voice.

Robin Ducharme | You know, I was always told growing up that I've got a radio voice. I could do, what do you call it voiceovers?

Shaun Galanos | Yeah.

Robin Ducharme | Yeah. you know what, this could be my next calling. But the podcast works for now.

Shaun Galanos | As long as they don't say that you have a face for radio. That's not a compliment.

Robin | I think you have an excellent voice for podcasting, too. I'm sure you've been told that your whole life. Haven't you Shaun?

Shaun | No, not my whole life but someone said they love my sweet dulcet tones.

Robin | Yes.

Shaun | The microphone helps a lot.

Robin | Yeah. So, Shaun, you are a Love Coach. You're the host of The Love Drive podcast, and an online course creator, you've created so many courses. And you're going to be telling us about your new course, The Love Collective at the end, which I'm very excited about. I read your newsletter this morning and I thought that's fantastic. Love it. You teach valuable, very valuable intimacy and communication tools for better relationships, and more love. And when I think about learning communication, it's you that comes up. And because you are an excellent teacher, and it's very clear, it's direct, and it's also loving. So you can combine all of those in one thing and communicate in a loving way.

Shaun | I mean, that's the gold standard, right? If you could be really direct and kind at the same time. Oftentimes, there's one of those key pieces missing.

Robin | Something that I've started doing as of last week when I interviewed Esther Perel, and Dr. Solomon asking this question, and it's going to be the question now that everybody's being asked, and I'm sorry I didn't give you the heads up but it's not hard.

Shaun | I'm ready for it.

Robin | What is giving you the greatest joy right now in your life? And what is the challenge that you're working through?

Shaun | Wow. The greatest joy is that I finally found a place to live. That is my own. Yeah, I moved to Arizona of all places, I really didn't think I would end up here. This was not on the list, you know, but I drove through Flagstaff and I really liked it and I found a place to live and I haven't had my own space in over a year. So when I left Montreal, I'd been sort of on the road looking for you know, the next place to call home and I finally found it and then it was, you know, a rental and an Airbnb, you know, hotel and I finally found a place to live. So, nesting, I'm a big nester, I love creating home spaces. So this is what's giving me a lot of joy right now and then similarly the same thing actually is giving me a lot of challenge. Right? Moving to a new place, meeting new people, building community, dealing with the weather, the climate considerations, right? There is no perfect place to live. There is no perfect relationship. There is no perfect job. Right, I really believe that, that we can never really attain perfection. And people say, you know, perfection is the, what is the killer of good or something or, you know, it prevents you from just being happy with what you have, because you're always looking for more. And so a lot of these things that bring us joy or bring me joy are also things that challenge me at the same time.

Robin | And I think that's, that is so similar. It's there's such a parallel, like you just mentioned about relationships with people, because you can look at all of the strengths and beauty and all, like I said, all those things that you love about a person. And then if you're identifying the weaknesses, that you think of that person, things that really bother you. They're almost on the same. It's like the same thing flipped. It's like that thing you love about that person over, let's say, five, six years, but doesn't matter how long you was somebody, it's like, all of a sudden, you're like, oh, I don't like that about them. Well, it's actually the same thing that you fell in love with them about them. And now it's becoming something like a thorn.

Shaun | That's super common, super common, the thing that draws you to the person, sometimes can be the thing that pushes you away from the person, right? Like, I remember an old relationship with a woman who was, you know, free spirit. And that was kind of alluring and exciting. And you know, she was a little aloof and had a hard time committing and I was like, Ooh, a challenge. And then when we got into a relationship, that is the thing that sort of drove me crazy, the fact that she was still having a hard time committing and was being aloof and, and a free spirit, and was like, well, we can't build anything sustainable with this kind of dynamic. So it was the thing that attracted me to her was also the thing that sort of pushed me away.

Robin | Wow, we're gonna get into that, because I think that relates to the topic of red flags. But that's not a red flag. And that's what you teach. So you created a brilliant online course. And of course, you are a content creator, and online course creator, and you do live lessons as well, live classes, like we're going to talk about at the end with your newest one. So our team took the emotional availability course that you've created, it's called open up to love. And it's a three part online course, is for anyone that wants to develop their own emotional availability, and how to recognize it, or the lack thereof in others, right. So I would just love to know some history on why you created the course walk us through your career up to that point. And then what prompted you to create this emotional availability course?

Shaun | Wow, well, I guess just a real primmer on how I got to do this work is that I, like 7/8/9 years ago, maybe at this point, I was driving a taxicab in San Francisco, hadn't done anything love related, wasn't doing anything online, and started recording my conversations with my passengers.

Robin | I love that story.

Shaun | About you know, sex, love, and dating. Yeah. And that's where The Love Drive came from. Literally driving, talking about love. And then over the years, I sort of stopped driving a cab, but then I started writing and writing blog posts, making videos and the podcast, and then I got certified as a coach because I needed some sort of training, I also have a background in communication. So it sort of makes sense that a lot of my stuff is based on communication. So then I started coaching people privately, and then it was like, I kind of want to do courses, you know, I want to be able to reach more people. And so started developing these courses, healthy communication, getting your needs met. And then this one topic that kept coming back up over and over and over again, was emotional availability. And a couple of years ago, I think that's when, like, the term emotional availability really peaked. You know, like, people were sort of frenzied around it. I think now it's, it's more like attachment styles and attachment.

Robin | And narcissism.

Shaun | Yeah and narcissism and avoiding narcs, and that whole thing. But emotional availability and emotional intelligence is, you know, it's important, it's kind of crucial in some relationships, right? Not everyone's gonna want the kind of relationship where you touch really deep, intimate vulnerabilities, right, and that's fine, you could have something that's more casual, or you can have, I don't want to call them more surface level that they just don't go as deep. But I also found that a lot of women were complaining that their partners weren't emotionally available, oftentimes their male partners so I started looking into this stuff and started you know, throwing some theories around one of them is the like, you know, if, if you're always attracting or in relationship with emotionally unavailable people, there is maybe some part of you that is also emotionally unavailable. Yeah. Right. Because if you choose those partners, subconsciously, unconsciously or even consciously, you are protecting yourself from having to go deep.

Robin | Because if you're with somebody that doesn't want it, yes, that actually makes perfect sense.

Shaun | And then you can blame it on them. You can say, Oh, you're, you just don't know.

Robin | Which we tend to do. [laughs]

Shaun | You just don't open up, you're not trying to get you to open up, you just don't open up. And it's, you know, that's fairly common. So that's why I wanted to create, create the course. And to explore what are these parts of us that we are scared of showing others? How can we identify people who might be emotionally available, which, by the way, it's super hard to do. Like in the beginning stages of a relationship, you really can't really predict who there are some indicators, and we can talk about that later. But I think you know, how to open up how to identify people. Some people, you know, at the very beginning will present ads, they will appear to be emotionally available, right, folks that love bomb or the command real strong, or they love the full court press and will sort of like, pay you a whole bunch of compliments and appear to be emotionally available, and then you know, come to find out, they're actually pretty shut down. And then the other folks who might appear shut down, are probably just taking their time, you know, they don't open up to everybody right away, which I think is a really good thing to do, I don't think you should open up right away. So those folks who might appear shut down, could actually be you know, some of the most emotionally intelligent folks that you can be in a relationship with.

Robin | Love that point. So can you give us your definition of emotional availability, you have in your course, this definition from one of your lovebirds, Leslie. And it's an excellent quote, but it's really long, but I would just like to hear in your words, what is your definition of emotional availability?

Shaun | Yeah, I think, I think, if we were to paraphrase, it's something along the lines of being able to access a wide range of emotional experiences, and to sit with other people's emotional experiences, right? That's sort of the short version of it.

Robin | Yes, it's the good, the bad, and the ugly. Really, that's it is like, if you're in a place of, I'm feeling really scared right now. Actually, I think about that. It's like, do I ever really express those words, but it's like, you know, I'm easily able to express joy and honesty, and vulnerability. But if I think about being vulnerable, if I was to say, I'm scared, that's me being vulnerable.

Shaun | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so being able to identify a wide range of emotions. You know, I remember, in my early 20s, I was in couples counseling with my partner, girlfriend at the time. And we just we, I think we were together four years in total, but after the first year, we had just like some massive incompatibility in terms of resolving conflict, we just didn't, I didn't have the tools. I mean, I was like, 21 years old. I didn't have the tools. And she didn't have the tools either. And so we just kept butting heads. So we found ourselves in couples counseling at 22, which isn't a red flag. It's just like, I think it's actually kind of beautiful that two young folks would want to go through that journey, you know, of therapy together. And what I found out is that I had a real inability to access anything other than like anger or blind rage. Right? I didn't have the spectrum at all, there was no nuance between, you know, mildly annoyed, miffed, upset, you know, there's steps before you get to blind rage. And I would just go from fine to super angry. And so over those years, I've been able to sort of fine-tune the radar. And to get more in tune with what's going on, what am I feeling? Why am I feeling this? Why is this here? What is it trying to tell me? Right, so these are all parts of becoming more available is becoming more curious about what it is that's coming up for you.

Robin | Yeah. So you list off the traits, like there's obvious there's a lot that comes with being emotionally available. You list off, being able to be vulnerable, transparent, honest, reliable, generous, and willing to compromise that's important. Know when to show up. Know some of your weaknesses. I think that one is important. Like identifying your weaknesses. Like we get that question asked, you know, in interviews when you're younger, that's a hard one, right?

Shaun | Like, oh, I'm too hard a worker.

Robin | I'm a perfectionist. [laughs]

Shaun | Yeah, I'm lazy. I'm sometimes I'm lazy. Sometimes I take a nap under my desk.

Robin | That's not good for getting hired. Don't ever admit that. Right?

Shaun | No, do it after you get hired.

Robin | Somebody to meet you halfway and take responsibility that's really important. You're willing to do the work. That's also I think, very critical in a partnership, consistent and stable. The one thing I did want to talk to you about what you just mentioned earlier, was about transparency, because transparency is a part of like, it is listed as one of the things that would demonstrate emotional availability. And I think there's differing ideas about what transparency, the importance of transparency and what actually, I would love to hear your idea about what that means and the importance of it in a relationship. Because it's like, you'd like you said earlier, you don't want to be 100% transparent with somebody you don't know, obviously, like when you meet somebody, and I think I know, I've been guilty of this in new relationships when I was younger. It's like, if I think if I tell this person, everything about myself, I'm being honest. I am being honest. But I'm also big time oversharing. And it's a boundary violation on myself. And that other person doesn't frickin know me.

Shaun | Yeah, they didn't ask for all that.

Robin | Yeah.

Shaun | I call it puking on someone's shoes. Where you just sort of just you just unload on people. And, you know, I think people that overshare you know, I think it's, it's sort of your virtuous in some degree, like, they want to be transparent. They just don't know how to modulate that. Or also, it could also be, you know, some attempt at getting someone to like them. If what they're sharing is positive, then the other side of that is when you basically say everything that you're thinking,

Robin | Oh, that's your right, right. That's another like, that's way too transparent.

Shaun | Yeah and you can't, you don't want to be mean, right. But there has to be, it's sort of all going back to, you know, direct, honest and kind communication.

Robin | So one of my lessons around transparency was, I know that there where the root of it all was, I was raised, Catholic, and growing up to learn from a very, very young age, like it's all about honesty, and telling the truth. And it's like somebody asked me a question, I'm going to answer it forthright. But sometimes it's too much information, or it's like, that person didn't deserve the answer. Like, I don't know. Like, if I'm dating somebody, and you're asking me a question, I would just answer, right? Because I want to be honest and truthful, however, like, and then I think if I'm not being honest, I'm telling a lie. Or withholding information is a lie or something like so I'm just saying this, like these belief systems that we can be raised with that aren't in our best interest. And what about this, it's like, even if you are with somebody, which I am, like, I'm married, I don't need to know about my husband's ex partners. He could be transparent with me if I asked him, I know he would be. But I'm saying like, there's a limit, like you want to be able to protect yourself. And it's like, they don't need to know everything. You can also have that other side of you that's just yours, right?

Shaun | Yeah. Well, you also, I mean, you just spoke to Esther Perel recently, and you know, Mating in Captivity, right? Fire Needs Air. So there has to be some amount of mystery in your relationship, which will keep that fire going. Right? If you share everything about everything that you're thinking everything that you want everything, and they do the same thing, well, then you are creating a really safe space. But you're also sort of creating something that is so safe, that it's you know, it's a bit, it lacks passion. Right? So there's a case to be made for being a little bit mysterious, or not knowing everything about your ex, your, your partner's past, or not even knowing everything that your partner is doing. Right. Like, they have plans on the weekend, you say, cool, have a great weekend, you know, and you trust them not to cheat, but then there's like a little thing inside, like, could they? Could they? I guess they could I didn't ask them what they were doing. So I don't know. So they could, and that is sort of something that can keep that fire going. So, you know, all that being said, there's an incredible amount of nuance that comes into play when you're trying to figure out what do I say? What do I share? What do I ask? You know, one of the things that I was just thinking about is like, do you need to know how many partners your ex, how many? How many, you know, partners your partner has had?

Robin | Oh my gosh, that is something that I think early on in relationships, people are asking, I know I've been asked that many times when I was like, you know, boyfriends, girlfriends growing up. And whenever til I got married for the first time, and you know what, do not tell the answer. That other person actually doesn't want to know. And I didn't want to know either. Why did I ask the question? It's so ridiculous.

Shaun | Yeah. Why did you ask the question?

Robin | Why did I ask the question? It's like, and then you're like, sitting there going I didn't like that answer. [laughs]

Shaun | Well, so one way to one way, you know, one way to deal with questions like that is say, Look, I'm happy to tell you but I'm kind of curious, like why are you asking why do you want to know?

Robin | Great answer. Cause you're not answering the question your answering the question with a question,

Shaun | Yeah like, if the numbers higher than you want it to be like, Yeah, how's that going to impact our relationship? Right? So you can you can get curious around the things that you may or may not want to talk about.

Robin | I really liked that. So one of our community questions is, what is the difference between vulnerability and emotional availability? I think it's part of being vulnerable is a part of being emotionally available.

Shaun | Yeah, yeah, I mean, vulnerability is opening yourself up to get hurt, basically, right, in the hopes that you won't. If you hold back parts of yourself that either you learn growing up that if you share these you would get hurt. There has to come a point where, you know, if you want to access deeper emotional connection with someone, then you do have to open up and you do have to be vulnerable, and you do have to risk getting hurt, right. So I don't think you can open up to deep, deep love without also opening up to deep, deep pain. And that's a choice that you have to make, right. And that's why a lot of people don't open up and they aren't vulnerable because they learn growing up that when they do this, they get hurt. Right, someone makes fun of them. Someone minimizes their experience, someone gaslights them, someone uses that information, to, you know, hold it, hold it against them at some later point. And, and it's too bad that people have had those experiences.

Robin | You know, what that makes me think of how some, a lot of breakups, and divorces end so badly, and how it's like you are just throwing all of the beauty that you had together, out, because you're no longer with that person. And now it's like, I still, I'm hurting. And I just want to hurt them. And it's coming out in such a very violent way. Because you're taking all those things you know about them, their heart, and all you're like, and it's almost like their faults and all their mistakes they made, which is normal, we're all human. And it's like throwing in their faces, and it's so toxic. It's that's really and that's really scary. When you think about people that have gone through a divorce like that, or a breakup like that, that was so incredibly painful, beyond the breaking of your heart because your heart’s completely broken. But then that person is still wanting to hurt you in such a violent way. And it's like, then how do you step into a new relationship with an open heart?

Shaun | Yeah, really slowly.

Robin | Yes.

Shaun | That's why I counsel people to go slow. Right at the beginning, this is how you figure out whether this is a safe person or a safe relationship and whether they're emotionally available and whether they can handle your disclosures with tender loving care, right? Is you, you take baby steps towards it. Right? You share something that's vulnerable, maybe you share about how you had a bad day. And then how do they respond? Do they say Oh, tell me about it. You know, I'd love to what can I do to help? How can I support you? Or do they say like, Oh, come on. Do you think you had a bad day?

Robin | Like, yeah, be strong buck up.

Shaun | Yeah. Buck up, like, at least you're not living in Ukraine. You're like, yeah, okay, I get it. That's bad. But this is, this is what happened to me today. You know? So these are little, they're tests right? They're just how do they respond? Do they respond in a way that is validating and kind and generous? Or do they minimize, make light of, right, make fun of you, pretend like it's not happening, change the subject, because they're just like too uncomfortable with being in a supportive role. So this is how you can identify what kind of person that you're dealing with. And this is how you can start to slowly trust that you're you're probably not going to get hurt in the same way that you did with your last relationship. You'll probably get hurt differently.

Robin | Yeah, because life. Yep. You never know. Right? Yeah. You just never know. So you talk about the edge how you say don't let the fear strip you from exploring closer to your edge. What is your edge can you expand on that for our listeners?

Shaun | Yeah, your edge is the edge of your comfort zone. Right? So if you never learn to open up then your comfort zone is not opening up. Right so for you the edge is going to be to you know, explore what does opening up a little bit look like? What does telling someone how I feel a little bit look like what does it feel like? Right? Oftentimes, you know, we were talking about smoking cigarettes. earlier, this is before the recording everybody.

Robin | We don't smoke now.

Shaun | And you know, my experience, we don't smoke now no. We're either chewing gum or where we've kicked it completely. But for me, you know, the fear of quitting was actually worse than actually quitting.

Robin | Really? Oh, yeah. Because you're thinking about all the things you're like, I'm gonna miss. I'm gonna miss my morning coffee with the smoke. I'm gonna miss like, right? What is going through your head?

Shaun | Oh, it was just like, oh, this is gonna be so painful. Not I'm gonna miss. I'm just gonna, like scratch my eyes out, I'm gonna be a nightmare to everybody. I'm going to be anxious. And then when I did quit, I was like, alright, it's not actually that bad. Like, I made it way worse than I thought that it actually was. And that's sort of what can happen when we are scared of this next level of our development, right? When we're scared of exploring the edge of our comfort zone. When we're scared of exploring what does being vulnerable with a partner it looks like. We sometimes make it way worse than it actually is. And you end up doing the thing, right? You have the disclosure, let's say you share with someone that you have herpes. And you think that they're going to banish you from their life and instead, they go like, Oh my God, that must have been so so hard. Like, tell me about it. And you go shit. Okay, that was actually pretty sweet. Well, that's the edge. Right? That's that's like not letting the fear stop you from exploring your growth, right, your next zone of development?

Robin | Yeah. So there are things you actually teach about getting over your fears. And you say, the opposite of fear is faith.

Shaun | Yeah. I learned that in 12 step recovery a long time ago.

Robin | Oh, I've never heard of that. Before that the opposite of fear is faith. Like that.

Shaun | You have to have some faith that what you're gonna do, you will be okay. Right. And what happens is, the more you practice these tools, the more you practice opening up, the more you practice being more vulnerable, the more transparent you find out that they didn't react the way you thought they were going to write, they actually reacted positively. And if they don't, which will happen, then you have great information about how to move forward, you go, okay, you know what this is like, not the kind of support that I want, this is actually not supportive at all. So this isn't the kind of person that I want to be in a relationship with. But on the flip side, hopefully, they respond positively. And then you have more data, right to support the fact that if I do this again, hey, you know what, it's still scary. I it's still scary to tell someone that I have herpes. But the last few times I did it, no one kicked me out of bed. Yeah, still got laid, actually. So I maybe I can trust and have some faith, that it will also happen like this again. Right. So so the faith kind of takes over for the fear. And, you know, courage isn't like the absence of fear. It's like doing the things scared.

Robin | Yes. Oh, exactly. That is. Yep.

Shaun | You can't just wait for the fear to go away.

Robin | I love like, I have this image in my mind, when I think of courage, and we're gonna have my, maybe I won't say it. But I think of courage as a muscle. And the more we work that muscle, the stronger it gets, and it's like, you're not, you're not ever going to be your life is always gonna be full of fear. That's an that's completely natural. We have fear for a very good reason. Just to keep us alive, right? It protects ourselves and others around us that we love but I also think that a lot of times it's irrational, it's like that doesn't, you know, you just have to, you still have to work through it. So the one, the second thing you say about getting over our fears is to stop reading the stories. Stop telling the stories, like when you say that you're talking about, like, you know, figuring out what you're actually thinking about, which is like, oftentimes a narrative, right? Like you said, you think all these stories up about how your partner or that person you're with is going to react and you create all these stories, this drama on your head about "He's might say this, she might say that, okay, then I'm gonna have to say this," like it created all this dialogue and all these assumptions. So stop telling the stories. Well, maybe we can stop it, but we can mute it.

Shaun | Yeah, I mean, yeah, you could stop reading the story. I first of all, I just want to say that I love the fact that you have like all access to the course materials, because I'm like, What? What did I say? And then you tell me what I said like, Oh, that's right. That's right. You know,

Robin | I don't expect you to have it memorized. You created it, but hey,

Shaun | So the story thing is, I do think we can stop. Yes. So we all have like this library of stories that we we pick up all the time, you know, I'm not good enough. I am never going to make enough money. I'm never going to be in a relationship. I'm too, you know, ugly or unattractive to have the kind of relationship that I want, no one wants to be with me. So these stories that we tell ourselves, right, and for the most part, they are stories that we've made up, you know, and sometimes they are born from someone saying you're not good enough, usually like a caretaker or something. And you take that as, like, gospel. Yeah, just truth. And it's not it's just another human being, doing the best they can mess up. And, you know, we take that as gospel and we hold on to it. And these are self limiting stories, these are not helpful at all. Right? So each of these stories is a book in your library. Never going to find love. I'm not good enough. No one's ever going to love me, you know, sort of these are like the classics. And every time you take that story, you like pull the book off the shelf, and you start reading it, right? And it really is up to you to just not do that. Right to like, say, oh, you know what, that book no longer serves me. I'd prefer the book that is that's titled, I'm good enough. But Gosh, darn it, dating is hard or relationships are complicated, but I'll give it my best shot, or plenty of people love me just the way I am belly and all, you know, like, much more accurate titles. And if you think about meditation, right, like, the idea of these stories of us having to let them go is that we have to practice letting go. And letting go is like, kind of nebulous. It's hard to describe people are just like, Well, how do I let go, like, everyone's telling me to just let go, you know, how do I let go?! And you have to think of it in terms of meditation, right. So if you've done any mindfulness meditation, you know that, you know, sort of, there's an object to meditation, right, which is usually the breath. Because, because it just happens, and you can focus on it. So there has to be an object of meditation. And what happens during meditation is that like clouds, a thought will come into your purview, right into your space. And you can grab hold of that cloud and just explore it and stop thinking or focusing on the breath. And then you're just lost in that thought. And what you learned in meditation is to let go of that thought, and go back to the breath. Right? So, this strategy is the same for letting go of these stories, right? The story pops up, I'm not good enough. You choose to pick up the book and read it or to put it away and pick up a different book and say, Oh, wait, no, that book sucks. I'd much rather pick up. I'm good enough and dating is hard. So that's sort of how I look at these stories and how to let go of them and how to even create new stories for yourself that are much more accurate than these like, antiquated stories that we've been holding on to for a long time.

Robin | Yep. And something you also say, which I mean, I know, you do talk about very openly about the fact that you've had therapy over the years, right? I've got a regular therapist, and thank goodness. But you know, that's the thing is, like, let's just say this fear is really ruling your beliefs. And you know, you've tried meditation, you're reading all the books, you're listening to all the podcasts. But at the end of the day, it's like your ability to really relate with somebody on a level you want to, and is, you just aren't able to do it by yourself. You do need, you may need therapy, and there's zero shame around that.

Shaun | Oh, yeah, you probably need therapy. I mean, I think everyone does.

Robin | Yeah, both of us do. Like all of us do. Why not?

Shaun | I'd say all. I mean, yeah, you know, unfortunately, it's just not as accessible, especially in the United States, and it more accessible in Canada, but still not something that gets that's paid for through healthcare, for the most part, sometimes it is, if you're lucky to get a great healthcare system or a great health care plan, then sometimes it is. But yeah, you sort of hit it on the head, which is that oftentimes, these relationships that we have with our therapists are sort of the relationships that we wish we had growing up or that we wish we had right now. So to a certain degree, some of these therapists are going re-parent you, right? They're going to talk to you in the way that you wish your, your caretakers, your father, your mother talked to you when you were growing up, or the way you could interact with your partner or your friends or whatever. So they act as a stand in. But then also, they're trained in figuring out, you know, why are these? Why do you act the way you do? Like, what? How do these stories make sense for you? Right? How do these behaviors, these patterns make sense for you? And yeah, I've been a huge fan of therapy for, I think I've been with my current therapist for four years now almost five years. We talk nearly on a weekly basis. And there's just always stuff to explore. Right?

Robin | Absolutely.

Shaun | Stuff comes up. Stuff comes up. and even when I think, I think I'm good for like a month, like, let's just check it in a month. And then I'll be like, oh, man, I really wish I could run this by her and see what's going on. And but I've also been really lucky to have the two therapists that I've worked with my life were just fantastic. You know, I got really, really lucky, never interviewed therapists just kind of showed up and go, Okay, you're my therapist. Now let's get let's get to work. You know? I'm a big fan.

Robin | Yeah. So I've got a question from our community about this, about being in a relationship while you're in therapy. I'm a 31-year-old, single female, and due to depression, low self-esteem, and my past, I find it difficult to get emotionally close to people in general. And I find it very difficult to be emotionally available in romantic relationships. I'm currently in therapy for my mental health issues, and it's going well. But I'd like to ask for general advice on how to make yourself emotionally available in a romantic relationship.

Shaun | Yeah, well I think, you know, first of all, it's beautiful that you're doing the work and that you're getting support for, for, you know, the mental health that you're struggling with. And I mean, it all goes back to starting small, right, we don't just show up and sort of, you know, open up fully, hoping we don't get hurt, because that is a good recipe for getting hurt, really hurt. Right, we start slow and we share with people. I think a good way to start would be to talk about, you know, the relationship. Right? So tell your partner hey I’d like to spend some time this evening to talk about our relationship, which is like pretty scary, you know, that it's like, not something that people do usually, you hear that when someone's about to break up with someone.

Robin | Or if you've got a big issue that you need to work on.

Shaun | Yeah, a big issue. Yeah, I'd much rather you bring this up on a regular basis. Yeah, let's have a chicken about our relationship. How are we doing? Are you enjoying this? What do you love about this? What? What could be different? What could be better? You know, how can I be a better partner to you? So I think that could be a nice little baby step, right? With the caveat of saying like, hey, nothing's wrong, I just want to practice being a little bit more open with you about, you know, how we're doing and how I feel about you. So that'd be one good step. Another one is to share with people, you know, like, what you want and need. Right. And also to share with people, there's actually a really great practice, in some of the more like tantric circles called desires, fears and boundaries. And it serves as a way to create a container for a sexual experience that feels safe and exciting and fulfilling, where you both take turns sharing what is your desire, your fear and your boundaries around this encounter. And it's a really beautiful, intimate practice that really lets people into what you're wanting what you're scared of, and what you absolutely do not want. But it doesn't have to be just for sex, right? This could be for anything, this is what I want, this is what I'm scared of. Right? You don't really need the boundary there unless, there's a boundary discussion that has to happen, because there's some sort of hurtful or unwanted behavior. That's, you know, that that you've experienced. So sharing your desires and your fears, hey, I'm scared that if I open up to you, you're not going to like what you see, and you're gonna leave. And I've had a lot of relationships growing up where people left and my mom left when I was younger. And so I have sort of this, this fear, you know, that it's a pattern. And it's something that I, you know, would like to change. It could a kind of practice like that as well.

Robin | I just really appreciate all that and just the approach Shaun because when you show up that way, and it is very honest, and vulnerable, it invites the other person to just react in the same way. It opens people's hearts, because it's just like, you're coming at this like, wow, like I'm so, I'm impressed and I'm proud of you for actually opening up and I really appreciate knowing that this is what's going through your heart and your mind. And invites somebody else to do the same.

Shaun | Yeah, and they might be like, Yeah, I'm so not down to that and you're like, Okay, wow, like, ouch. And you might need to reconsider what's going on.

Robin | Yeah. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about how do you identify if someone's emotionally unavailable?

Shaun | I mean, a couple key pieces are like when you disclose something that's intimate and vulnerable how do they react? And do they make light of? Right, as in do they make fun of you? Or do they minimize it? You know, that's not really that big of a deal, or do they change the subject? Right? Do they avoid any sort of questions of any sort of intimate nature, like, oh, how was your childhood? Like, you're like, hey, what do you want to do tonight? You know, it's like, what just happened? You know,

Robin | You can't answer that question with the question.

Shaun | Right. Yeah. And if you're not ready to talk about your childhood, you can be Look, you know, that's not really something I'm ready to talk about. But I could definitely talk about that at some point, right? So like, if someone asks you these questions, and you're not ready, because you're you don't know them. It's totally, instead of changing the subject, you could say, Thank you for asking. I'm not ready to talk about that. But when I am, I'll let you know.

Robin | Yeah, that's a gentle way to say it. And it's very direct.

Shaun | And you're recognizing that they asked Yes. And you're choosing not to answer, right. So changing the subject is a big one. Making fun of you, when you open up is a huge one. Right? Gaslighting you is is you know, there are a lot of red flags, but that that would be one of them. Right?

Robin | So can you give an example of that? Like, let's just say yeah, please give an example of gaslighting in a conversation.

Shaun | Well, you give me an example of gaslighting.

Robin | Okay. Well, let's just say that. Okay, a good example was, oh...

Shaun | It's tough.

Robin | I know, it is really tough. But really what gaslighting is like you are coming to somebody with a concern or something that you're not happy with. You didn't feel that went down the right way. I felt really hurt. And the person is flipping it on you like, well, if you wouldn't have done that, that's why I acted that way. Yeah, something like that.

Shaun | Or it didn't happen.

Robin | Or that didn't happen.

Shaun | Yeah. Like no, I wasn't. I called you back, I did call you back.

Robin | Oh, yeah. You know he didn't call you back cause I've got a call display, buddy. Hello.

Shaun | Yes. Yeah. So So minimizing, like actually negating someone's emotional experience or bid for connection, or some sort of challenge that they're bringing up and just saying, like that didn't happen, or flipping it around and making it a bit about them. And if you do this enough, then you actually start to believe that it's true. Right. So I think I had a girlfriend who would say that I was really dramatic. And that my needs were out of control. And then I was too needy, right. So if you if you tell your partner that they're too needy enough, there's a point where they might start to believe it and think that they're actually the problem. When really the issue is that their partner is in unavailable or unable to meet their needs. And so instead of saying, hey, I really can't do that for you. They turn it around and say you're actually really needy. It's like, pretty, it's like a huge turnoff.

Robin | Wow, what a great example it is.

Shaun | It took us a little while but we got the example.

Robin | I love it. And the other thing you say about emotional unavailability, which I think is very important, is people can talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. But if you're not walking the walk, like if your words are not aligned with your actions, what's the point? Right, that's a big red, that's a big red flag. It's that really is a good indicator, if they say one thing and do another.

Shaun | Yeah, or Yeah, people. Yeah, it's funny people...

Robin | On a regular basis, let's just say.

Shaun | Actions speak louder than words. And I go, sure, but I'd much rather have those actions. And those words line up on a regular basis. That's the gold standard right there.

Robin | Yeah. And the other thing you you talk about is acting differently around you than other people. It's like, they're all nicey nicey. Well, actually, I can't think of an example right now of how that would show up. It's almost like...

Shaun | Well if they were really sweet to you behind closed doors, and then sort of like, in public, you don't exist. Yeah. Or like, don't treat you the same way. That would be something that I would look out for

Robin | Big time. So one of the community questions around this is my partner and I often get into arguments because she says I'm emotionally distant or unavailable. So this person wants to fix it, but I don't know how. Any advice?

Shaun | Yeah, ask your partner.

Robin | Oh, yes. That's a great, great answer, Shawn. Like, simply ask your partner what can I do to show up for you in the way that you need? Would you say it like that?

Shaun | Or what am I doing? For Yeah, or like, yes. And, you know, what am I doing right now that leads you to think that I'm emotionally distant? Like what are these behaviors that you're cluing in on so that I can and then what can I do differently? Right? What can I do differently? This this is such a basic question like, How can I show up for you in a more emotionally present way? What does I mean one of my favorite questions is like, you know, if someone says like, hey, I need you to be more present, it's like okay, well what does presence mean to you? What does being more present look like? What does it actually look like for you? We don't, you know, we, there's there is shared language, but oftentimes, some of these the meanings mean something totally different. Like if I say, hey, look, Robin, I need some space. And you're like, fine. Whatever I'll see you in two weeks, and I was like, no, actually, I just need you to like, move, like, go to the other room. Or like you're too close to me on the couch.

You're asking for more detail and very being very, like, what is it? What space are you talking about right now?

Yeah, what does space look like for you? That's like my favorite question. You know, what is emotional distance look like for you? How could I become more present and more available? I mean, the person that wants you to change has the answers for the most part. Right? Just ask them. But we don't we don't ask. We assume we go to the worst case scenario always. We don't want to look weak by saying like, what can I do differently? We don't want to think that we're doing anything wrong, right? So there's all these barriers in the way that a lot of them can just be like, kicked up, kick the side by just saying like, okay, let's talk about this. Like, what can I how can I help? How can I be supportive? What can I do? What can you do? Here's what you can do. It does require putting the defensiveness aside.

Robin | Yes. That's a hard one for a lot of us. Me included I'm definitely defensive, right from the get-go. And then I soften. And I'm like, Okay, sorry about that.

Shaun | I mean, it's hard. It's hard for some, you know, for us to think that we're not doing something right, that we're actively hurting somebody else. And but you know, at the end of the day, the reality is, if this is someone that you care about, whether it's family, a friend, or a partner, they are having this conversation with you because they want to keep you in their life. Because if they didn't, they would just tell you to fuck off. So they actually liked you enough to have this conversation. And we're all doing the best we can. And sometimes our best is not that great. Like I recently I've just not been a great friend, because I've been in my house, not reaching out to anybody. I'm not asking people how they're doing. I'm just like, worried about fucking doorknobs. If you could tell, there's no doornob on that door. Because I got no doorknobs. So I haven't really been a great friend. And I'm doing the best I can. And that means that sometimes my best is not that great. And so we have to give each other and others that sort of grace as well for not being perfect.

Robin | Yes. So I wanted to talk about red flags. Because I think what I did learn, and I always learn from you. But what I did learn around this idea that red flags are often an opportunity to connect. I thought this was really interesting. And I have got a community question that I wanted to frame around this so that we can talk about this concept. So she's saying, I think that I'm quite an emotionally well rounded person, I'm always looking for ways to improve and grow. And I feel like I'm in a great space to meet someone. I recently had a date with a man that was overall a great first date, which I often don't come across. However, one red flag came up for me when discussing his past relationship, which he brought up, he casually mentioned that he had been to both counseling regarding control issues, and that is ex accused him of having an anger management course, he took an anger management course. I didn't ask him much about it at the time, because I was caught off guard and it felt really heavy for the first date. I'm wondering whether I should see him again because that's a pretty big red flag. Right? But he seemed like a nice guy. And I'd hate to use his honesty against him. I'm not sure what to do. What would you advise?

Shaun | I mean, yeah, if that's the thing, then and you had a great time and he's, you know, seemingly nice guy, then we can't really hurt to have another date and say, hey, look, you mentioned control issues. You mentioned anger management. And you know, I would be doing myself a disservice if we didn't, you know, touch on that a little bit before we go any further.

Robin | [laughs] I love the wording Shaun, like, that's awesome.

Shaun | That's a little business speak too, you know. That's how I talk to like customer service folks. And I'd be doing myself a disservice. I didn't bring up the fact that like,

Robin | The service is really bad. No. [laughs]

Shaun | This is a bit of a red flag here. Customer Experience is lacking. Yeah, you know, hey, you know, I’m my biggest advocate and I'm an advocate for myself here I'd love to hear a little bit more about these control issues. Because here's the reality is that yeah, maybe he's got control issues. You know, show me someone who doesn't actually

Robin | That’s a good point. [laughs]

Shaun | But everybody's got control issues, I have control issues, but I'm also a nice person to be in a relationship with. Because I recognize that. I'll be like, Man, I'm feeling super controlling right now. You know.

Robin | I try to control all my situations. It's like trying to figure out which option is which is coming at me how can I deal with that one right there. Just controlling my life.

Shaun | We all have control. We all want control because when you have the control you have a semblance of like, you know, everything's gonna be okay. But you know, it's possible that he has control issues, it's also possible that his dynamic with his ex, was more controlling, or his behavior was more controlling than it was with other people. You know, we show up so differently, depending on who we are showing up for or with.

Robin | Yes, that is another great insight that you bring.

Shaun | So we don't know, maybe she was extra controlling. And maybe, maybe she was, you know, I don't want to throw her under the bus. But we can throw everybody under the bus because we don't know these people. But maybe she was so shut down, that his only way of getting her to respond was through anger. Right. So maybe they had that like pursuer distancer dynamic as well. But if you've got to pursuers, well, then you know, there probably won't be anger management issues. So I don't really know, we don't know what's going on. But it's for sure worth a conversation. That's why I say red flags are opportunities to connect, right? If you disconnect. Now, without having that conversation, you will never know anything more about that situation, or about you in relationship with this person. So, you know, unless, unless there's abuse towards you, unless there's like, you know, any form of abuse really physical, sexual, or emotional, intellectual or spiritual, then the red flags are really just an opportunity to have a conversation and get more clarity around a thing that you think is might be one way, but actually might be a different way. And, you know, he might have anger management issues, in which case, get a little clarity and then peace out.

Robin | Yeah. I think that when we listen to you, and other relationship coaches, talk about identifying red flags. It's almost like, this is not black and white people. And what one person would they think, oh, that's definitely a red flag walk away, don't go on the second date. I love your approach to saying like, no, it may not be a red flag. But something that you brought up was about, like, let's just say you show up on the first date. And it didn't sound like, you know, he mentioned that he was in therapy. Sorry, taking that course. And that is ex talked about anger management. But let's say you show up. And this person is always talking crap about their ex. You know, there's this idea, like, okay, you can just be putting the finger on that other person. Maybe it was a really, really, really bad relationship and that person that they were married to or with was really not great. But that could be a red flag that they're always talking. They're not they're not taking responsibility for their 50% of that.

Shaun | Well, I feel like it's wildly inappropriate to trash talk your ex on a first date.

Robin | Oh, I agree. Completely.

Shaun | Trash talking your ex at any point really, if it ended poorly, just say like, Hey, you know what, we were like, really incompatible in a few ways. Here are a few ways and like, it was a really tough situation, it was really painful. It was, you know, I really liked them or whatever. There are ways of being honest about what happened without trash talking. I mean, I feel like that's,

Robin | Oh, absolutely.

Shaun | It's just not somebody that I want to be, you know, continue to be in a relationship with. Also the anger management dude, I would, I would be so curious, like, Hey, what are you what are they teaching you in this anger management course?

Robin | Yes. I would

Shaun | Like I want to know, see how it is an opportunity to connect, right? Like you can now learn what he's learning. And he might be like, hey, you know what I, with my ex I was, I was not great. I was not great. I, you know, our dynamic was that that I was a bit of a yeller. And what I'm learning in this course, is, there's this sheet it's called the feelings wheel. And there's all these different feelings and now I'm better I look at the wheel when I'm feeling something I go, Oh, shit, I'm intimidated, you know, so I've got a broader understanding of what's going on with me emotionally. Of course, this is like best case scenario of how he would respond. He might be like, Oh, it's a bunch of bullshit. And then you could be like, alright, well, you know. Thanks for the second date.

Robin | Thanks for the information I'm going the other direction here. Yeah. I wanted to share a quote of, of yours that I wrote down because I thought it was really beautiful. And then I want to hear about the new course that you've just launched.

Shaun | Cool.

Robin | So you say, "Trust that you have what it takes to hold space for yourself, to open up emotionally with another and to navigate the murky waters of your emotional landscape. Trust that others can do the same with themselves and could hold your precious heart the way it needs holding." Your precious heart. Yep.

Shaun | Yeah, we're all a little bit more tender than maybe we admit, admit to being and yeah, there's some trust required there. This is not I mean, where do we learn this? Not in school? No relationship education. And, you know, our caretakers are just, you know, just trying to survive. So, you know, that does require a lot of trust.

Robin | And I do want another plug, I want to do another plug for therapy, because I think if people are if they are able, and willing to meet with somebody on a regular basis, a professional that can help you reflect back on what's going on and give you some tools to be more emotionally available with your partner and you with yourself, then that's just a gift for being in a better relationship.

Shaun | Yeah, you know, therapy. I read this passage, once in the, as a footnote in The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, it says that, basically therapy allows you to sort of fertilize the soil so that what's inside of you can flower. Right? Prepare the soil, actually, for what's inside of you that can flower. So therapy is really there to help you. Like sort of be the best version of yourself to grow in like a really beautiful way. It doesn't have to be as scary as you make it out to be. It's not like quitting smoking. [Robin laughs] Generally, it's a safe space for you to explore. It's actually a great space for you to explore a lot of these you know how to be more vulnerable. That's sort of their job.

Robin | Yeah. So tell us about your new course. The Love Collective. I love how the acronym is TLC.

Shaun | Yeah. The Love Collective is a love cult. It's a 12 week program. I'm super excited about it. I started it because when I put up a q&a box on Instagram, I get like 1000s of questions.

Robin | Yes. Wow.

Shaun | And so I love doing q&a. I love dialoguing with people, I love having large group discussion, and breakout groups. And so I wanted to create a container, which is a 12 week program where we can explore 12 different themes around love, and relationships and dating and sexuality, right, healing from heartbreak, staying open, becoming emotionally available, getting your needs met. So it's sort of the best of all of my courses in these 12 weeks, and every call has a theme, and plenty of room for q&a, for large group discussion, facilitated by me, this is really an opportunity for you to learn the things that have shaped the way I love and live my love life in a safe, loving, kind group environment. And it's $349 US dollars, which is is less than an hour of coaching with me. And for that you get 12 hours of group coaching, group training, you have access to an online community as well so that you can submit your questions anonymously, if you don't feel comfortable, sort of doing mini coaching with me via video. And you'll have access to the, all the calls are recorded. So you can have you'll have access to them for a year, you'll also you'll have lifetime access to my love Bird Club, which is my private Facebook group, sort of a peer support group that is incredibly loving, like I'm blown away by the level of support that folks show each other in that group. So that's the thing. It starts June 7, it's three months. And we meet once a week for 12 weeks. I'm really, really excited because this is a brand new format for me. And I love creating new formats. And I just really wanted an opportunity to interact with the folks in the group the courses that I do, they're sort of like one to many. I'm not interacting with people as much because there isn't, the format doesn't lend itself well to it. But this is definitely like a more intimate cohort that I'm excited about.

Robin | Yeah. Oh, it sounds amazing. Fantastic.

Shaun | livelovetraining.com

Robin | Oh, yes. Sorry. livelovetraining.com And we'll make sure we put everything in the show notes. For those of you that want to join June 7.

Shaun | Yeah. Join the love cult.

Robin | Join the love cult. That’s good. It's like an oxymoron. It's all good. [laughs] There's cults that are loving right? I don't know. You're there.

Shaun | Yeah. There's no malicious stuff. There's no you don't have to get a tattoo or anything. Yeah, it's all online. So you know.

Robin | The love cult tattoo is a heart. Hey, that's no, no problem.

Shaun That's right. You can actually put one on there if you want and

Robin | Thank you so much, Shaun. I always like, I just always have so much fun and learn so much and appreciate your time and our conversation.

Shaun | I'm super honored. This was really fun and beautiful. And thank you for having me.

Robin | It was super fun. Enjoy all of the sun and whatever you're doing, and enjoy your unpacking and nesting in your new home.

Shaun | Thank you. Yeah. Next time there'll be art back here and there's already a little bit of

Robin | I saw your dog. What's your dog's name again?

Shaun | Roger.

Robin | I know Roger is such a beautiful companion of yours. So hi, Roger. Oh, he's so cute. Okay, Shaun, well take care, and so much love to you.

Shaun | Thank you.

Robin | We'll see you soon. Bye.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey