Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode #13 with Silvy Khoucasian | Transcript

22.06.30

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today on Let's Talk Love, I'm joined by the beautiful, intelligent and super relatable, Silvy Khoucasian. Silvy goes through the different attachment styles we all have that were formed in childhood, and how these styles affect how we relate to each other as adults. We also talk about the different types of boundaries, and how important it is to set boundaries and also honor the boundaries those we love have set. This is a chock full conversation. I hope you enjoy and learn so much along with me. Welcome to the Let's Talk Love Podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love regardless of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives and the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started. Welcome, everyone to this episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm so excited to welcome my new friend Silvy Khoucasian. I don't know if I pronounced it correctly. [laughs]

Silvy Khoucasian | You did very well.

Robin | It's such a beautiful last name. And Silvy and I have worked together a number of times now. And she's one of our experts that's going to be sharing so much wisdom around new things that I am not familiar with, attachment theory and this is why I really wanted to have you on Silvy today and so welcome Silvy to Let's Talk Love.

Silvy | Yay, what an honor to be here. Every time we collaborate it's just always such a joy. So thank you for having me.

Robin | On your website, you say my sole mission is to support others in being deeply and soulfully self connected, and to use their self understanding to create fulfilling relationships with others. As a relationship coach, I guide others to get to know themselves more intimately in a safe and collaborative way. I teach people how to communicate with self-responsibility, assertiveness, vulnerability, and boundaries. These are things that we all need. I had to quote you on that because I thought that just, you know, you did sum up a lot of what your work is all about. And I wanted to ask your personal story because, of course, you share your personal story on your website about how you were an actress and then you transitioned to getting your masters in psychology, marriage and family therapy, and where you are now with your thriving coaching practice. So I'd just love to hear a little bit of your story.

Silvy | Yeah, let's you know, it's always so interesting to think about the many lives we have in one lifetime. Right? Yes. And I, you know, when I think about my acting journey, it was, it was an intuitive pull to pursue that field. Because I think, for me, I was a very, very performative child, very much like a kinesthetic learner, which is very much like, I process and learning through the Expressive Arts, like whether that's through singing or performing or acting or writing. And I was naturally drawn to acting because I was able to really embody different parts of myself that were very repressed and shut down. So I could do a role and I could feel the angry part of me, I could take a role and feel into my jealousy. And it was such a beautiful way for me to really, you know, integrate these many parts of myself that I think, you know, I think, you know, our culture, I say, our culture, but here in the West, I don't know, you know, I can't speak for other parts of the world. But where do we get to really express our, the fullness of our emotions, like really Robin, like full-on? Right. And so for me, that was a place where I got to do that. But then I also, you know, I got to the point where I was like, yes, it's beautiful that I'm able to express these feelings through an acting role or through this kind of thing. But it started to not feel enough and I was like, Okay, I need to actually process my childhood, I need to process what it is that these feelings are connected to. So I could integrate them more intellectually as well. And so that's what led me more purpose to pursue, you know, a degree in psychology in the therapy world, and then I started to want to teach people what I learned, which was like relationship skills, like skills, like how to set boundaries, how do you be vulnerable? Like I literally had no idea like, what does that even mean? How do you know you're doing it, right? All these all of these different skills? How To be like reciprocal in relationships, so it's not just about my stuff or you know, get lost with catering to other people's needs. So I started to collect, I started to just pay attention through my 10 years of combined, you know, therapy and coaching. So what are the areas that people keep coming to me for, and I kind of fine-tuned, the different areas that you just read about? And I want to make things practical for people because that's what really helped me, I like giving people language, not so they can just say it how I would say it, but to help them discover their own languaging for how they would want to communicate things to their partners, to their friends. And so it started off really, it evolved through that journey for me from, from really wanting to do that for myself, and, and working with different therapists, working with coaches, and then paying attention to what people needed, and slowly starting to craft my coaching practice towards those things.

Robin | Wow. And I think when it comes down to it, as you said, it's about having the skills because we're not, most of us are not raised with these amazing role models that are teaching us the best relational skills. So this is really important stuff. And this is what Real Love Ready is all about. And Let's Talk Love really is we can all read the books, and know the theories. But when it comes down to it, we need the strategies, the tools, the language, to change our relationships, so and grow our relationships. So you're doing beautiful work, Silvy!

Silvy | Thank you so much, honored. And you guys are creating such a beautiful platform for bringing all of this wisdom together. So it's an honor to be here truly.

Robin | Oh, thank you. So Silvy, I wanted to invite our audience into the world of attachment styles, because I really don't know much about this and I would like to learn more. And so can we talk and you do, I mean, you're an expert in this field. And so can we talk about the origins of attachment theory?

Silvy | Absolutely, yes. So what I love to do with attachment theory is I really love to simplify it for people, but also without robbing the nuance and the complexity of our human experience, right? Because frameworks can be watered down, and we don't want to do that. But frameworks can also really help us to make sense of our earlier experiences. So that we can, we can see ourselves through those frameworks, and then utilize the skills within them to create, like you said, better, healthier, more connected, reciprocal relationships. So attachment theory is a framework that was developed by John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth. And essentially, they started to look at the way little children were bonded to their primary caregiver. So that usually is a mother but it can absolutely be a father, it can be an uncle, it can be a grandparent, it can be whoever is the person, the primary person that was in charge of being the one to soothe the baby, you know, obviously, you know, parents can take roles, like they can shift roles, and they can, you know, alternate, but there's usually one person that is responsible for doing that most of the time. So, again, this isn't about blaming, I want to you know, really, really preface with that this isn't about blaming mothers, or blaming parents or blaming people, it's more about just understanding what that dynamic was like so that you can understand how it's now being mirrored and replicated in your adult relationships. So with a caregiver, and I'm going to just kind of go through them a little.

Robin | Yes, please.

Silvy | Okay. So when there is a deeply secure attachment happening between a child and a caregiver, that means that the caregiver is present for the child and responsive, a good amount of the time, it's not perfection, it just means that oops, um, you know, I made a boo-boo, I didn't respond, well, I didn't soothe the baby in the way that it needed. Let me adjust. Let me figure out what the baby needs to adapt. So it's not about perfection, but it's about having a parent or a caregiver that's just present, and who's trying to find what the baby needs and adapting in an appropriate way to that. That is what creates a secure attachment. When there's a caregiver that is available, sometimes, like really on point and really there, and really present but then is maybe not, maybe they're really busy with work or maybe they're just so distracted with something they're struggling with. Maybe they have a mental health challenge happening. And they're not really able to be there. And there's like the split experience that happens for the child, the child can develop anxiety, like wait a minute, my caregiver is here sometimes, but they're not here other times. So when they're not there, that experience in adulthood can develop into feeling anxiety in relationships, like wait a minute, you didn't call me back, you didn't text me back? Oh, my gosh, you're not coming. So that fear of abandonment can start to develop and it makes so much sense right when you understand that earlier experience. And then there's dismissive/avoidant attachment which is all about a caregiver being not really responsive to a child's emotional needs, or physical needs enough of the time or very rarely. So that child starts to instead of like having this co-regulatory emotional experience where, you know, a child learns to self soothe themselves through that mirrored experience with a caregiver. So if they're not getting that, they start to auto-regulate, meaning they self soothe themselves. But what happens is in adulthood, then they can really struggle in relationships because having someone else like want to be in their presence and want that deep attachment can feel really threatening because they're kind of like an island is, you know, what Dr. Stan Tatkin refers to it as, like, I can take care of myself, you know, they grow up into people that are very self-sufficient, you know, very responsible even as children, they can be really responsible. So leaning into relationships can be a lot more challenging for them. And then there's a fourth type that came up much later through Mary Main and Judith Solomon's work, which is disorganized, it's also called fearful/avoidant attachment as well. And that's when you have a caregiver that is frightening or let's say parents were, they had a lot of unresolved traumas of their own that were never dealt with. So a child can both be bonded to this caregiver, but also be afraid of them. So there is sometimes can be abuse in this scenario. And so this person can grow up into their adult relationships to really craving and yearning for intimacy in their relationships because they had that closeness. But they're also very scared. So falling in love can be really scary for them, because it can feel like a loss of control. And even just committing to a relationship can be like, Oh, my gosh, I'm trapped. And it's so subconscious. Right, Robin, and that's why it's, you know, a lot of times people come to me, and they're like, but I don't remember what happened. I just feel like this is my adult relationship. So it's not so much about remembering the specifics of what happened. It's more about honoring, this is how you feel in a relationship. So let's honor that, let's have compassion for that. And then we can kind of work with creating some skills and some soothing for the nervous system to help counteract and repair some of those earlier experiences. That's a short little, a little bit of them all.

Robin | Thank you. And it's like hard wiring. Right?

Silvy | Yes.

Robin | So is it within the first two years that this is happening? Or is it like, Is it a childhood? Is it from birth to, like what age have the scientists and people that have studied this, the researchers found out that this is really developed? Those stages, the ages.

Silvy | Most of the research points were being pretty like a pretty short two to three-year window. So it's the first few years of course, like, you know, other things are impacting the child, high school experiences, like all kinds of things are impacting but that attachment piece, right? The ability to bond and attach to a romantic partner, especially, but also to friends. That's according to the attachment theory framework. That is what becomes mirrored through what was that what the attachment was like in childhood.

Robin | Yeah, one of our community questions was about is the attachment theory? Or is attachment sorry, style, can it be developed in adulthood? And I think you've just answered that, right, like this is, that's a different thing. Like if you're experiencing trauma, as an adult or a teenager, in a relationship with your parents, or some other individual that's different, or an experience, that's different than what you're talking about with the bonding.

Silvy | Exactly. And that's, you know, that's why it's I always, you know, encourage people to not get fixated on the label, you know, of course, if it's helpful, but yes, if you have, if you have a terrible relationship with someone who is completely shutting you down, and is, is not really responsive, and you start developing anxiousness, that makes sense based on the relationship. What happens with people that tend to be more secure, however, is because they have that framework of knowing what it feels like to be in relationships that are really responsive, they have more trust, they also feel more confident to teach people how to show up for them. So if they started to sense, that someone was not going to show up for them, they were more likely to leave. And so it's also helpful to understand attachment theory because it can, it can show us what we're vulnerable to, right? Like, if we had anxiety, we can probably know that we're going to tend to be drawn to people that help to recreate that pattern, doesn't mean you can't change that relationship dynamic, but it just means, uh oh, I better pay attention to is this relationship does that have potential to grow and be healthy? Or is it going to just continue this pattern of anxiety and loop us over and over again, in a way that's just extremely painful?

Robin | Mm-hmm. So seeing how attachment style does form the first few years how can we learn to change or style, or work with it as adults to better our relationships? You just explained that really. [laughs]

Silvy | And that's, that's the biggest question, right that people want to know is like, how do I, how do I fix it? How do I change it. And the beautiful news is you don't have to become this different person, you get to still be you, you get to still have, you know, if you, I have anxious and avoidant tendencies, and they're still there, I still have them. And you know, what I help people with. And what I remind them of is that it's about creating new agreements in your relationships, that are going to protect your relationships. So if I know that when I get anxious, I'm gonna send my partner a bunch of text messages, like, where are you? Where are you? Where are you, I'm gonna probably want to work on some self-soothing, and like, Okay, this is what I want to do. But this is not the best use of my, my relationship skills. Let me create some tools in my own tool belt so that I can take care of myself, maybe I call a friend, or maybe I've worked on this, and I know enough that you know what, I have enough evidence that my partner has shown up for me, my partner communicates that they love me, everything's okay. So, with anxious clients, we do a lot of work around that self-soothing, but also coming up with agreements in your relationship, like your partner, or your partners or a friend, knowing what your sensitivities are. And being willing to work with you. Me and my partner in the beginning of our relationship. In my past, I used to be in a relationship where we didn't touch base until the end of the day like we literally the whole day would go by, and we wouldn't communicate. And that would drive me bananas.

Robin | You were wanting more.

Silvy | Yes, I needed a checkpoint, but I didn't know that. I didn't know how to communicate, I didn't understand, my wiring, my anxiety. And when I got in my relationship with my husband, that was one of the first things I said to him, like, I really need us to have a check-in and first thing in the morning, that calms my anxiety. And it just makes me feel relaxed the rest of the day, and we created an agreement around that it doesn't mean it's perfect, but just knowing that that's something that we do to come back to each other. And to know that my anxiety is acknowledged and cared for, makes a big difference for, again, protecting and nurturing, and rewiring some of those earlier patterns.

Robin | So this is all around what we're talking about one of our community questions is, how would you recommend talking openly about attachment issues with someone that you have witnessed has attachment issues, but may not be very aware of their attachment issues? Is there a good way to communicate that?

Silvy | I actually get this question quite a bit, Robin. And I think, you know, it's, it's really interesting, because I often tell people, you know, there's really no way of getting this wrong. As long as you're bringing this up in a way that's sensitive, and not blaming or shaming, right, you can literally get away with saying anything. And I think, you know, if I were to give just a practical example of what that could look like, it would be something like, you know, I'm learning about this new map. It's called attachment theory, attachment styles. It's so fascinating. What I saw myself through discovering this map was X, Y, and Z, you know, I noticed that this is how I show up and this is what I would love to actually work on and be better at in our relationship, would you be okay with exploring this or talking about this, or reading with this or doing this course with me. And kind of inviting them more from a place of this is how it shows up for me, rather than this is what I think is wrong with you, which is usually how we invite people to therapy, right? It's like you need therapy.

Robin | I'm good, but I'm going you have to come. [laughs]

Silvy | Exactly and seeing if there's an open space to talk about it. And some people are not a fan of the labeling of these kinds of things. So I would say if they're not, then just be human about it, right? Just say, you know, I have, I have anxious tendencies. Or I noticed that when I come home from work, if I have more avoidant tendencies, maybe I just need a little bit of time to myself after work, so I can decompress before connecting to you. And that's what I love about the map because it gives us permission to take care of our nervous systems without neglecting our relationships, right. And until we know how to take care of ourselves and ask about what we need. Oftentimes, it can be hard to show up for who we're in a relationship with because we can feel stuck like we can make things all about ourselves. And so I want people to feel empowered to actually say, hey, this would be really helpful. This would make me feel safe. What do you need, you know, what would help you? You know, how can I show up as a better partner? And it's wild that we don't ask these questions, right? And like automatically, like so many people don't. I didn't in my previous relationships, did you, Robin?

Robin | No, it was after it ended. [laughs] And then there was a lot of reflection.

Silvy | Yes! Yes, those are some ways that you can enter, that world without making it just about because we chose that person, right? We chose that person for reasons. So they have strengths. And maybe we can start with that we can start with the things we love, the things we admire, we obviously want to pursue a relationship with them. And then we can bring up you know, I noticed this thing that you do, you know, it's okay to also bring that up. I noticed sometimes when I want to connect with you, I feel like it will maybe it overwhelms you, or is that true for you? And what you How can I help you so that you don't feel that way? And just kind of exploring from a place of curiosity, they might be absolutely like, have no idea, especially with people that are more have more avoidant tendencies, they tend to not be in touch with their needs, they literally can so deeply struggle with, like having language for their internal world. So that's where a course or like some kind of education or even just listening to a podcast can be. So it's such a simple access point, to help them even start understanding what their needs are in the first place.

Robin | Yeah, I like the wording there it was, you're approaching it with your partner with curiosity, and that's very gentle. I like that.

Silvy | Yes. Don't we want to be like, approached that way? Right? Yes. I don't want to feel like something's wrong with me. [both laugh]

Robin | No, I know. It's just so easy to point the finger sometimes it's just it's terrible. It is sometimes the reality. So another community question is, I was married for 15 years to someone who was very avoidant, and I've always thought I had a reasonably secure attachment style. But over the past few years of dating in my 40s, I've noticed that I might have some avoidant tendencies. When a guy I'm dating expresses too much interest or shows emotion, my guard goes up, and it makes me think they are a little needy or too eager. I'm beginning to think that perhaps my ex-husband and I both had avoidant styles. And although I was maybe less avoidant than him, his detachment and lack of emotion was actually a comfortable space for me. I had a very loving home growing up, and I have many other healthy relationships in my life. But romantic relationships are proving hard for me. I had been thinking that the problem is just that I've never met the right person. But now I'm starting to question whether my hesitancy to let anyone get close to me, is also about my attachment style. How do I heal this?

Silvy | Wow, this is such a beautifully framed and clear description of someone's experience with this. And one of the things that I love about Dr. Stan Tatkin is he actually says people usually have more similar attachment styles than they don't which I found to be really interesting through his research. And if we're having that kind of response to someone, right, if we're feeling there's, there's an overarching normal of like, Look, we all can be in a relationship and once in a while be like, my partner is annoying. They're getting on my nerves or...

Robin | I need some space.

Silvy | Yeah. That's everybody. So I think let's normalize that because you know a little bit of that is totally understandable, especially if you're feeling stressed. But if it feels extreme, or prevents you from really developing a connection or feeling intimate, or building a bond with someone, that's when it can be really significant to explore and look at. So one of the interesting things Robin, that I found with people that tend to have dismissive-avoidant tendencies is that they tend to describe their childhoods as as good as actually really positive. And because it can be really challenging for them to get in touch with their painful feelings, because again, there's a lot of repression, a lot of suppressed emotions they had to attend to. So that means a lot of that was shut down, the child can't regulate their difficult emotions. So it just literally gets closed off, shut down, compartmentalized. And so I don't want to go there, if I'm now an adult, like everything was fine, everything's fine. That's what happens whenever I talk to someone that has avoidant tendencies. So I would wonder if not to say that what this person is saying is not true. But I would, I would invite them to maybe explore and dig a little bit of deeper into when you were in pain when you were struggling, who did you go to for support and comfort? And what did that look like? And that's one way of kind of starting to unravel how was that attachment in reality, right? Because again, that we have the fantasy version of our parents. And then we have the reality version, which, again, not to say that we expect perfection from our parents, but if we are to do the necessary grieving work, we have to see them as, we have to acknowledge the positive things and we also have to be willing to look at the reality of things so that we can so we can deal with ourselves and we can create healthy relationships. So I would first wonder about that. And then also exploring past relationships. Right. Were there any other relationships that maybe felt traumatic? Was there infidelity that was never dealt with? Was there any kind of cruelty? And I would start to explore that. And then that exploration can help to integrate and make space of like, Ah, it's not so much about my partner. It's also about like, what's happening for me. And then, so this is very layered, right? Like, it's never just like a one-word, answer.

Robin | Yep. We're layered human beings.

Silvy | Layered human beings. And this person is clearly saying that they have this kind of responsiveness with other, a lot of people, it's not just this one person, but then it is noticing does this partner? How is that? How is the way that they're approaching me? Are they approaching me? Are they pressuring me when they want to, you know, do certain things with me? Do they blame me? Do they criticize me, because if they are doing those things, then it's understandable that we would retreat or feel annoyed or even start to feel like this, you know, repulsion from that person? So just taking some time to kind of explore and look at all the different angles, including the family of origin, childhood experiences, and also reflecting on past relationships. And then we want to look at, you know, what are some ways we can start to increase or build a higher tolerance for intimacy, and then that would be kind of like the final tier to work through that. And that will look different depending on what this person discovers within their own internal exploration. Does that make sense?

Robin | Mhmm. Wow. That's great. So let's talk about boundaries. Because obviously, these are like super important for everyone, to have healthy relationships with ourselves and with others. In simple terms, I would love to hear your description of what a boundary is.

Silvy | The simplest description of boundaries would be, it is a limit that protects the integrity of your well-being, whether that's your emotional well-being your intellectual well being your spiritual well-being. So it basically is a way of protecting yourself, it's a limit that protects your well-being. And that can be you know, honoring your capacity boundaries, or how you want to be treated or setting a boundary when somebody you know, comes into your space or minimizes or invalidates your experiences. So there are, you know, four different frameworks of boundaries that I love to speak about from the work of Raquel Lerner. And they are emotional boundaries, physical boundaries, intellectual, and spiritual. And we can dig into those a little bit if you would like.

Robin | Yes, please, please.

Silvy | Right. So this is another reason why, you know, I do a lot of work with exploring our family of origin experiences, because they shape so much of how we, they shape our, they're literally the relational lens in which we relate to others and how we see others how we trust how we repair and understanding, you know, Were there certain boundaries that maybe we're not, you know, maybe people weren't as sensitive to, but that affected me later in life. So according to the work of Raquel Lerner, you know, our emotional boundaries, could be violated or injured in our childhood, if we had a parent who shared intrusive experiences with us, or maybe shared things that weren't really appropriate for our age or talked about, you know, maybe what our parents divorced and now a parent is venting to me about the other parents are putting me in the middle.

Robin | Yep!

Silvy | So like we are emotional experience can be really violated right now. [laughs] That one resonates?Yes.

Robin | And that would result in a boundary being so emotional. So the almost repercussions of learning that or experiencing that as a child would result as an adult in ways of like, let's say, oversharing.

Silvy | Hmm, yes.

Robin | Would that be that could be something?

Silvy | Absolutely.

Robin | You learn that there are no limits, right? Actually, there are a lot of limits to sharing when you're like a parent-child relationship.

Silvy | Yeah, it absolutely there's, you know, sharing that is relationally sensitive and appropriate versus just sharing to share because of our own anxiety, or like you said, not knowing that it should have limits or that we shouldn't be sensitive to limits, at all right, but it also when another repercussions robbing is that it can make us vulnerable to people that do that to us. Right? So like maybe we pursue relationships with people that even maybe minimize our own emotions. Or maybe they vent to us in such an extreme way that they're not very sensitive to like, okay, this person is getting overwhelmed. I'm not paying attention to them, but because that's so familiar. I don't say anything. I don't even recognize that it's happening. But I feel sick in my body. And I don't know why.

Robin | Yeah, or we ourselves do that because that's what we were taught.

Silvy | Exactly. Yes.

Robin | Yeah. So that's the emotional boundary. Yeah, I get that.

Silvy | Makes sense? So then there's an intellectual boundary, which Raquel talks about how, let's say you grew up in a family where you had to believe what your parent believes, or your dad believes, or your mother believes, you know, like, everyone has to have the same political opinion, or everyone has to believe the same things. And you're not really allowed to cultivate your own opinions, your own thoughts, and or, let's say your thoughts were shamed or minimized. And so you didn't really get to, I mean, take it to an extreme version, this is where gaslighting can come in, let's say you had a parent that would come home drunk, and nobody talked about it, or your parents went through a divorce, and nobody talks about it. So your intellectual experience of the world is impacted by that, you know, so being an adult, you are, you might be someone who values truth at all costs, I have to speak the truth because I have to name the elephant of the room, otherwise, I cannot tolerate being in this moment. So it can also mean I'm, you know, pursuing people that are always invalidating my intellectual experience. And so again, it's helpful to know what happens in our family origin, because it helps us understand what we're vulnerable to. And where we most likely need to start setting boundaries. You need to practice setting boundaries. And so for me, emotional boundaries were where I need to really step in and say, You know what, I'm overwhelmed. I need a break. But it was so uncomfortable for me to do that. And for my husband, like, he started setting boundaries with me, because intellectual boundaries, were really important for him. He's like, you know, no, I really need to, this is important for me to share. And of course, we step on each other's toes all the time. And I want to, I want to normalize that. Boundaries are not, you're not supposed to get it perfect. But being sensitive to it and repairing and acknowledging like, oh, wow, you know, I, I totally just dismissed your opinion, right there. I did. And I'm sorry, I didn't even realize I did that. But I'll be more aware and careful about that.

Robin | Can I just go back to that? So what you're saying, that example with your husband. So he has a very high need for intellectual boundaries.

Silvy | Yes.

Robin | And so he would say something, he would have an opinion about something. And you might be like, your opinions, right or wrong?

Silvy | You have a shitty opinion! [laughs]

Robin | Yes. I mean like that.

Silvy | Not that extreme. But yes.

Robin | I know, not that extreme. I'm not saying that. But that's, that would be like, he just needed to share his opinion. And he needed it to be heard. And that's, that's the most important thing to him. It's not about like, who's right, like, right or wrong? I'm just trying to understand.

Silvy | Exactly. You're framing it beautifully, like, especially in the middle of conflict, I would want like, I want to be right, my version is right. And so what happens is, if my version is right, then his version has to be wrong. Right? So I had to really work on being much more sensitive to tolerating, you know what, we both get to have our perspectives. We both are right, we have different perspectives of the situation. But in the middle of the conflict, I lost all access to the skill. So we had to really work on that in the repair. Yeah. And now I'm just much more sensitive to... You even actually helped me put something together in this moment, right now that just happened recently that I'm like, oh, I need to go back and make a repair about something.

Robin | Aw, see and that's what it is, like you said, this is not about like pussyfooting around each other, we're always going to make mistakes. That's what relationships are all about. But it is about repair and learning. And the more you do it, the more practice you have, the better you are.

Silvy | And being humble and having humility and just being willing to say like...

Robin | Yeah, "I'm sorry."

Silvy | That's why I love these frameworks, though, Robin, because it helps us know what, how would we even know that's even a thing if we don't have these frameworks to understand that they even exist, you know what I mean?

Robin | Yes. So then there's a physical boundary.

Silvy | Yes. So physical ones are probably the easiest to understand, right? So if you think about really highly sensitive kids, they are very particular about like, how they want to be touched, and like, you know, in so many family dynamics, you know, go hug your uncle, just go, you know, and so many kids, like, what if I don't actually want a hug, and instead of like saying that the child may be giving them more space to choose, like, hey if you want to go hug, or maybe you say to the uncle, you know, she's not ready for a hug, but she'll come to you when she is and you're starting to set up that child from an early age to be really present to their bodily needs.

Robin | I love that.

Silvy | Right and like if we override that, think about it, like how those red flags can be missed like we just start to become more and more detached from our physical sensations that way.

Robin | It's so important I saw this YouTube video and if I find it, I'll forward it to you and it was this kindergarten and the teacher, you could tell that she was just such a beautiful person. But she was very aware of this physical boundary and teaching the children and honoring them. And so they always walk to their classroom and greeted her. And there was a lineup of children and they could wave, they could handshake, or hug.

Silvy | Aw, I love that.

Robin | And so and so they were the ones to make the call, right. So like each child, like would be like, and then go sit down and then the next child was, Okay, I'll do the handshake. And that's what I feel comfortable with. Like, it's just like, wow, absolutely. That is such a great example of teaching physical boundaries.

Silvy | Yes, it's such a simple thing. I think that's the most beautiful example. And you're giving them options. So they can ask themselves, what do I feel like I want to do?

Robin | Yeah. So in a relationship, can you give us an example of how somebody would be like breaking a physical boundary? And it may not be I'm not talking about like, physical abuse.

Silvy | Yeah.

Robin | Like just something that you're just like, oh, this person does this to me all the time and I don't like it, but they're just having a hard time expressing that that's crossing your boundary?

Silvy | Yeah, I mean, I think with physical boundaries, it's, it's, you know, it's when you're not really sensitive to how somebody wants to be touched, or you're not really, maybe they're saying that you know, they just need a little bit of space of themselves, but we're not really listening. And we're just trying to constantly like, not necessarily pressure them, but we're overriding what they're saying, and we're just trying to do it, how we would want to do it. So there's such a spectrum. And there's such a range of how this could look. But like, if we think about sexuality, and like, you know, how women have, you know, through 1000s and 1000s, forever have had to override so many of their own physical, their yes's and their no's, because of patriarchy and, and not really even having the permission to be able to recognize, you know, what feels good in my body, what doesn't feel good. So it's also like, touch me here, don't touch me here, this is how I want to be touched and this is how I don't want to. Like having the ability to set limits around all of those things are ways where we can start to reclaim that and then communicating those things to someone, and then having them respect that. And if they don't, that's where obviously, you know, our physical boundaries start to get intruded upon. And, again, there's a range of how subtle and extreme that can be.

Robin | Yeah. So what would you say? Is the difference between a wall and a boundary? And how do we recognize we might be using walls instead of nourishing boundaries?

Silvy This is another question that comes up quite a bit. And we touched on this yesterday, also, during our live.

Robin | You know, I think we did and your explanation about what a boundary does, compared to what a wall is really good.

Silvy | You know, boundaries are, if I'm in a relationship with you, Robin, I want to stay in a relationship with you, I want to continue our relationship. So if I set a boundary, that is because I want to express what my needs are, so that we can continue moving forward and feeling good together. And I want to know what your boundaries are so that you continue to feel safe with me, so that you literally, you know, maybe I'm calling you too much, or, you know, you're like Silvy stop. You know, maybe you're like, you know, even though it would be uncomfortable to share, you would want to communicate to me, you know, for me, checking in like once a day or once a week, you know, probably feels a little bit better for me. And that would communicate to me that your pacing needs to be a little bit more slow. And so I get to decide, right through that information. Is that something that's kind of an extreme example, you know, you could say something like, you know, it really hurts me when you speak to me in that tone. Or if we're in a conflict, maybe you say something like, can you just lower your tone, I would really love to stay present for this conversation. It's hard for me to hear when you're, you know when you're so high up there. And so I want that information so that I can do that so that we can continue our relationship. So that's how I think about the relation of boundaries, it allows for continued connection. And with walls. There is no space for that there is no it's very one-sided. You know, the Gottman Institute considers stonewalling when we shut off a person from communication with us, and walls sometimes are a result of trauma, or, you know, childhood abuse and we might not even recognize that we're putting up walls. That's why it's so important to explore, you know, as I take care of my needs and my boundaries, am I still able to have a nourishing fulfilling connection, not just for me, but as the other person also feeling that way too. Sometimes one person's boundaries are incompatible with another person's needs. You know, so I think that's also part of the early stages whether it's whether is a romantic relationship or a friendship relationship. And sometimes walls, you know, are a way of preventing us from being vulnerable. They're a way of blocking us from feeling the shame that we might be feeling. So just exploring, you know, what are the intentions we're using our boundaries for? And are we able to continue maintaining a connection? And are we doing it in ways that are also sensitive and responsive to the other person?

Robin | So you mentioned spiritual boundaries? And so can you talk about that? What are they?

Silvy |So spiritual boundaries are actually when you are not given the space to explore your own spiritual or non spiritual experience, right. So I grew up in a household, where you are...

Robin | "This is what we believe."

Silvy | "This is what we believe."

Robin | "You're coming to church every Sunday," or whatever that looks like,

Silvy | Right? One of the religions that I admire deeply, is the Bahai religion. And they actually have a practice where they support the kids, I don't know what age it starts, to do their own research, like to really explore other religions and to come to the decision of practicing on their own. And I just think that that's such a beautiful way of honoring a person's individuality and autonomy. And that's, that's a healthy way of really bringing religion into a person's life. But it also can be, you know, spiritual boundaries can also be violated when like, a child is struggling. But instead of comforting that child and soothing that child and being present to the humaneness of that moment, we're using scripture to bypass their experience, or spiritual affirmations like you are above this, you know, something that just like disconnects a person from their humanity. So those are some ways that spiritual boundaries can be violated, of course, take it to the extreme, if you're in a religious cult, and you are literally being using a Source, higher power religion, this is where religious trauma can happen. So this is one of the more I shouldn't say more severe, because they can be severe in any domain, right? But spiritual boundaries are such a deeply personal experience that it can be really, really hard to recover from. And it's, I mean, that's why paying attention to the context, this is where group environments, being really careful with how people are practicing and whether or not there's space for you to get to have your own experience with it. Whether you decide you do want to have a spiritual-religious practice or faith or you don't resonate with that at all, is just so important.

Robin | Mhmm, no doubt. So I've got a community question around boundaries. I often have a hard time communicating and relating with my sibling, it's heartbreaking really. I've experienced them breaking my boundaries many times, even though I have been clear on how I want to be treated, it can be downright angry, and get defensive. Very mean to me. When I'm clear about how I want to be treated, they hang up or message in a passive-aggressive way, pointing the finger back at me. I do not think they've ever apologized in our shared lives. When we are together, we have a great time, but I do feel I do not feel close to them because of these recurring instances. Is there a better way I can communicate my feelings? And or do I just accept our differences and continue on with how things are? Thank you for your advice.

Silvy | Hmm, this question breaks my heart as well. And I just want to say firstly, what you're experiencing is valid. Your inability to feel close makes so much sense. If someone is not responding to your boundaries, what your boundaries are, what helps you feel safe. Again, if you don't feel safe, it's really hard to feel close to someone right. And how invalidating it can feel to receive that when you are trying to again, we set boundaries to continue a relationship with someone, right? So, you know, there are a few options, I once worked with a client who was in relationship to a family member that was very intrusive, very just not sensitive to their boundaries, and just kind of over was very just overriding of their, their experience. And this person wanted to continue a relationship with them. So we talked about boundaries for a really long time, we talked about options of what they could do. And then it was up to her to decide how she wanted to take that information. And so there are a few options, you know, with boundaries with people that you've set boundaries with a few times and you've tried and you've tried, you've tried changing the approach. You've tried taking responsibility. You've done it all and they're still not responsive. You can set consequences, not ultimatums, you're not doing it out of a punishment, but you can set consequences to, you're basically, with consequences communicating what the boundary's not communicating. You know whether that means you spend less time with them, or you distance yourself a little bit emotionally, or you don't share certain things with them, because they no longer feel safe, whatever that looks like to you is unique to your relationship. And sometimes not always, the consequence can have your wake-up call for the other person to realize, like, wow, they're pulling away, or they're really limiting their time with me, that doesn't feel good, I'm sad. And I want to reconnect, sometimes t that can happen, not always, you know, if someone is committed to making us the villain in their story, then they're committed to making us the villain in their story. And then the other option is, you know, if you are wanting to maintain the relationship, and not really change anything about how they show up, it's so important that you take care of yourself in your interactions with them. So with my clients, where they do decide to maintain a relationship we work on, okay, after you have a conversation with them whenever you feel invalidated, or dismissed or any of those things, you take some time after that conversation and you validate yourself, you tell yourself, you know what this is their limitation. I'm not wrong in what I'm asking for. And this is a sad limit to our connection and our dynamic, and I've done everything on my part. But just validating yourself so that you're not looping. Because what happens with people that are really invalidating you can cause our brains to kind of loop and loop. And also, another thing you can do is like reaching out to someone that you do feel safe with, that you do trust and maybe share, like, Oh, I just had this experience with my family member. And this is how they responded, it feels so shitty. And just ask them for validation for support to just be compassionate, and empathic towards your experience. Journaling this, and writing it down can be really helpful. But just you know, it's so tricky, because everyone has to figure out where that line is for them. And it's important that we're doing it in a way that protects ourselves. But also is, is aware of the limitations of who we're interacting with so that we manage our expectations, we shift the way we perhaps relate to them in the way that they relate to us. That last part is a little confusing, I know.

Robin | No, and I think that that's part of our experience of living, and relating with people is that we can't change anyone else, we can change ourselves. As hard as we try. You know, I know my children are moldable. And that's my job is to, you know, grow them up to be that I help with that process. But when it comes to adults, we're quite limited with changing each other. [laughs]

Silvy | We are, you know, we can vulnerable, you know, but ultimately takes it takes two people in a dynamic to want to shift it and all we have is control over our side of the street.

Robin That's right. So another community question around this is, what are some ways that those of us who struggle to set boundaries can work through that discomfort? Because yes, it's not easy to set boundaries.

Silvy | It's not.

Robin | At all. I don't know, does it ever get easier? I don't know. Maybe? It does, I think but it still can be very difficult.

Silvy | I think it gets easier with people that respond well to that, that made us feel safe and comfortable, you know, like I have friends that I cherish them for how comfortable they make me feel for expressing a limit, I'm just like, Thank goodness for you. Because it's so uncomfortable, especially when you first start, you know, we can kind of go to the other side of the extreme. And our boundaries might come out harshly or even feel mean or stiff or rigid because we've, we haven't expressed them for our whole lives. And so just really making space for that's normal. We can always repair that and communicate to our loved ones as an initiatory conversation, you know, letting them know, I'm learning this thing about boundaries in therapy and coaching and in in a course I'm taking and let's practice with each other. You know, it's really hard for me to say no, I don't know about you, but for me, it's so uncomfortable. And I would love for us to be that source of support for one another. Would you be open to that and then starting to practice finding the kind of languaging that feels authentic to you because I think what happens is you know, especially on social media and I'm I offer lots of scripts too but I always say these scripts are meant for just a starting point. You have to like really work through and sit with the kind of framing that is aligned with your values. The kind of relationship sensitivity that feels connecting and integrity for you. And journal it literally write down a couple of scenarios that you want to set, start setting boundaries with, whether that's like, I just want to tell people like I need a little bit more time to myself, and just like write out a few different ways. And then practice those in the mirror. And just kind of just say them out loud, just speak them out loud, speak them on a voice note, write it down whatever version works for you. And then, of course, speaking them to an actual live human, it's natural for you to feel a little bit of guilt, it's natural to feel a little bit of shame. You know, there are a couple of challenges that I work with people on, that come up around boundary setting that is also like, feeling like oh, my gosh, I'm not a loving person, if I set a boundary, or, or I'm a controlling person if I set a boundary. And so getting in touch with what the unique story is for you can also then help you take that leap to start tolerating that feeling. And it does get a little bit easier, I would say or but I don't know. Robin, Would would you say that it's gotten easier for you? Where are you at?

Robin | I think it's taken me many years to find my voice to build the boundaries. And now I can pretty clearly decipher Oh, there's something that doesn't feel good that that was a boundary overstep that I didn't. And it wasn't that, that's the thing that I realized, sorry, I just had a conversation this morning with someone and I'm like, oh, that didn't feel right. There has to be a good conversation that's going to come after that. But have to think about it and ruminate over the wording that I'm going to use because I do want to come across as thoughtful and loving. And because it's like, right. And so that's what it is. I just need to take time to think about how to communicate it. And then yeah.

Silvy | And most people are not intentionally trying to invalidate us or violate our boundaries, right? Like, that's helpful to remember sometimes, because when somebody does overstep, it can make us feel angry, right? Like, I can feel frustrated, like, how could you do that to me, I remember I was at a party and a woman came up to me, like, I just met her. And she came so close to my body that I literally, like, launched backward. And I was like, how can she do that? You know, like, I don't know, maybe in her culture, standing super close...

Robin | She's a close talker Silvy! [laughs]

I had a brother like that he was a total close talker. But not many people said back off, buddy. But you know, some people did. [laughs]

Silvy | Yes! And we could say back, or we could say like, you know, I just need a little bit more space, it helps me feel a little more comfortable in my body to have a little bit more space when we talk. And so there's, everyone has a way, right?

Robin | So many different ways you can approach it. But you're right, I know, for my brother, he was quite hilarious and he was ridiculous, actually how close of a talker he was. And you know, a lot of people just like made fun of it. Like, no, not made fun of him. But just like, you make light of it. That was what I meant to say. And that's, and of course, he didn't take it personally, because he was a very confident person. But he didn't realize he was doing it, for the most part. [laughs]

Silvy | And I think it's beautiful to get to the point in a relationship too Robin, I'm curious what you think, to get to the point where you're comfortable enough to just say it like that sometimes, like, leave me alone, give me a few minutes, I just need to have some time to myself.

Robin | Yes!

Silvy | And we practice boundaries, and there's space, and respect and there's love, we can get to the point where we don't have to overthink it so much. Right?

Robin | Exactly. We're not building scripts in journals and practicing in the mirror. It's just like, let's get real about this. And that takes a while to build with somebody. But once you have that comfort, hopefully. And those are the people that honor you and you honor them. Yeah, exactly.

Silvy | That's a beautiful way of saying it once you build that comfort with them.

Robin | Yeah. I've learned so much and I know that you, this is what you teach, what you coach all day long, right? And you're impacting everybody's lives in such a beautiful way. So tell us about your courses. Tell us what you what are you doing with clients one on one, what you're up to, and where people can find you.

Silvy | Thank you so much, Robin. Well, the boundaries course would be a great place to start for anyone that's interested in just even identifying like, what boundaries would be supportive in their lives and how to communicate them and, you know, obviously scripts as we've talked about, but support to help you figure out your own languaging. So I think the boundaries courses are usually the place I recommend for people to start. And then I am actually taking on clients one on one coaching. It's been almost a year so it's exciting to be able to start taking applications for that. So if anyone's interested they can...

Robin | That's exciting. I'm thinking, I think I may sign up for this Silvy. I love learning, but I also love putting that learning to work. So I know that I need work. And in a lot of these areas, I know I do. So this is I think I'm gonna be calling you right after this, I'll fill out the application you're in. And then you have your, I also read about this, I wanted to hear about your empowered dating course.

Silvy | Yes. So that's a course that is very specific to the attachment framework. So everything we talked about attachment styles today, is, it's a 12 module course that walks you through the beginning of your dating journey, how to clarify exactly what you want. And understanding how your attachment styles impact your relating style gives you tools so that you can work on your own self within that framework, but also support with boundaries support with communicating all of these things in the early stages, and just a ton of support to help you create really empowered, dating relationships, dating experiences, I should say, even if you don't necessarily want a relationship, how to relate more powerfully with others.

Robin | And that person whose community question you answered, I mean, that would be ideal because there's cuz it actually relates back to attachment, and how that affects your dating experience. Wow, great.

Silvy | Yay!

Robin | Well, I just want to thank you again, and I truly am giving you so much love and a big hug. I wish we were closer so I could give you a physical hug. Maybe not? That might be crossing a boundary.

Silvy | No I'll take that hug! I would love a hug.

Robin | But I appreciate all the time that we have with each other and we'll do it again.

Silvy | Yes, I would love that. Thank you so much, Robin for your time.

Robin | Thank you, Silvy, for all of it.

We'll talk to you soon. Much love. Blessings to you and your family.

Silvy | Thank you so much, you too.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey