Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode #14 with Terri Cole | Transcript

22.07.14

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today I had the pleasure of speaking with licensed psychotherapist, global relationship, and empowerment expert Terri Cole, about her new book Boundary Boss: The Essential Guide to Talk True, Be Seen, and (Finally) Live Free. Terri is a true boundary master herself and in her book, she teaches readers how to assert and maintain healthy boundaries. And if you are not driving a vehicle, and you're able to press pause on this podcast and go to Terri's website, terricole.com, you can take her boundary style quiz. It's 13 Questions. It took me about 10 minutes to take the quiz. And then you'll receive a report and also a video from Terri explaining where you're currently at with your boundaries, and your boundary style. I was fascinated by this. And I'm all about taking quizzes. So I really enjoyed that. [laughs] Terri really is a boundary master, I learn so much every time I speak with her and learn from her I actually downloaded the book and listened to it. And I'm even more convinced of the importance of how having healthy boundaries and also using clear, honest, and kind communication really can create better relationships in our lives. So enjoy this conversation with Terri and here's to becoming your own boundary boss. Enjoy. Welcome to the let's talk love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless, of relationship status. We talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we'll gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Welcome to our let's talk love podcast. And today I am so excited to be joined by the amazing, the beautiful, boundary master Terri Cole. Thank you for joining us today Terri!

Terri Cole | I'm so psyched to be here.

Robin Ducharme | We talked last week over IG and I first want to again, congratulate you on your book Boundary Boss.

Terri Cole | Thank you.

Robin Ducharme | Both my colleague and best friend Kirsten, read your book. And we talked about it all last week and this week. We're preparing for this podcast and we both were just seeing how you know this is deep work. This isn't for the light. Boundary work is soul work. That's what actually what we came to.

Terri Cole | Yeah it is.

Robin Ducharme

It's really about getting to know yourself. And it's not a light topic. But it's such important, important, important work. So can you just give us an idea about where your inspiration for your book came from? I know your work is all about boundaries. But just how you decided on writing the book and how that journey led you here?

Terri | Sure. Because here's the thing truthfully, I actually work is about a lot of things right? Boundaries is one of the core foundational stuff. But I also do a lot about communication and love, father wounds and Mother wounds and all the things. But why was this the thing that I chose to write my first book on because I knew there's going to be many more books as there will be. It's that it really is the thing that I had the most trouble with, in my own personal life. So you know, they say you teach what you most need to learn. Well, that is certainly true for me when it comes to this topic. I was your quintessential, over-functioning high functioning, codependent, people pleaser, over-giving, overdoing, all the things and not really understanding in my younger life, why I was resentful in my relationships and why I was angry and why I felt frustrated and I felt that people were, others were entitled kind of. I would I would give what I thought was willingly. But then, in the end, I would end up overgiving and then being resentful. You know, so that's something that I didn't know what the process was though. I just was like, maybe you're just being a jerk. Like I didn't understand what was going on. Once I got into my own therapy even then there were so many other things like quitting drinking, there were other things that were I had to handle before I could really dive into the specifics of the other psychological work that needs to happen. But once I started getting into boundaries and understanding like Wow, I have no idea what these things even are like, I have no clue. And I know I can't possibly be alone. So I worked a lot in my own personal therapy in my 20s. Because it during that time, I was a talent agent, negotiating contracts for supermodels, celebrities that was like the work that I was doing. But I was really mostly lit up about my own therapeutic journey. So I decided I was going to switch careers after I just couldn't deny the fact that I didn't care about the Pantene deal, or the movie contract that I was supposed to be super excited about. Because what I really cared about was the mental wellness of my clients. And so I was getting everyone into eating disorder clinics, and drug treatment clinics and therapy and all of those things where I was like, I should get I need to get out of his business before I start really sucking at what I'm doing. Because I really was no longer lit up about that. And so that led me to because imagine that being an entertainment, talk about like the boundary lists, you know, friggin Wild West. That's what entertainment is they were so much merging of boundaries. I worked somewhere, we were all young, all of our clients were young. So I mean, I had stopped drinking, thank God who knows what would have happened during that period of my life. But it was one of those things where that even more amplified, the disordered boundaries I was experiencing in my life even working on it. But being a talent agent, you know, that that literally is having disordered boundaries.

Robin | Because of the environment.

Terri | Exactly. You're available 24/7 to people, which is like crazy because you can't really make a life. Anyway, once I opened my own practice, I realized, wow, you know who it wasn't just? IT wasn't just you, that every person who walked in the door, every client, regardless of what they were coming in about, I could look back and go, Oh, their problem is stemming from the fact that they have no idea what the hell a boundary is, how to assert themselves in a way that feels authentic and healthy. And so I knew I was onto something, but it was also built in my practice. So I did this for at least 15 years before I started having a public life and you know, a platform and started teaching about boundaries. And then I really saw that it didn't even matter what country you were in. This isn't, this wasn't North America. This wasn't the US. This was friggin everywhere. So that is what made me want Boundary Boss to be my first book there was such a profound need to have a one-stop-shop, where someone could say, I don't know, a boundary from a hamburger, and they could get what they need. No matter where you are in your journey. This book is written for you.

Robin | Yes, it is. It's for everybody. I love it. You say the cost of bad boundaries is immense. It leads to conflict-ridden imbalanced relationships, a lack of agency over our own time, and general malaise. I love this. Oh my gosh, I love your sense of humor. Terri, you're like, do you have time for that drama mama? No, you don't. I laughed out loud when I when I listened to your book. And you say that a lack or weak boundaries indicates a disordered relationship with limit setting. So can you give us just a brief idea? Like that was something that I never really thought of it that way. But that is a simple way to frame it. That weak boundaries or a disordered relationship with boundaries is really you're not you're just not clear on your limit setting. So can you give us just an idea about what you in your words? What are boundaries?

Terri | Sure, I want you to think about boundaries, like your own personal rules of engagement. They're basically there to let others know what's okay with you, and what's not okay with you. So what makes up your boundaries, your personal preferences, your limits, and your non-negotiables like your deal breakers. According to me, those are the things that make up your desired boundaries. Now, herein lies the work. It's not just about knowing your preferences, your limits, and your deal-breakers. It's about knowing them and having the capacity to communicate them. Not imply them, not hint about them, not slam a door about them, actually effin use words to tell people what they are. And that is a big part of the problem for many, many of my therapy clients and women in my courses, and people in general.

Robin | It's the communication piece that really now how do we communicate clearly and concisely with what you just said, your limits your preferences and your deal breakers? So I went on your website and I invite everyone to go on Your website, Terry cole.com, and take the boundary style quiz. So I did that. It's 13 Questions took me 10 minutes to do. And remember, we talked last week and you said, I think I know what your boundaries style is Robin, what do you think it is?

Terri | You're definitely one of the more porous ones.

Robin | You think so?

Terri | I don't know. I think you're more of a peacekeeper.

Robin | Yeah. I could be.

Terri | What did you get?

Robin | Well, actually, my boundary still was in balance from what the quiz said.

Terri | Excellent. Well, that's great. But here's the thing, so much of what the boundary quiz, what it reveals for you, is that when you're out of balance, how would the out of balance boundaries express themselves? Would you be more likely to yell at someone or be more likely to, like smooth it over? Right? So those are the things because a lot of times when life is good, a lot of times, it's not that hard to have balanced boundaries, it's when we have conflict, it's when we need to have a conversation, it's when we're going up against something, when we have to tell someone something that they may not like, or we are afraid will hurt their feelings, or make them mad. That's when we really get to see which way if our boundaries are disordered which way they go.

Robin | I agree. I was thinking about this. And like I said when I was having a lot of conversations with my friend, Kirsten, about this, and about your work, it was like, things are going good but I can think of a few relationships in my life where it's a continuous work around the challenge around the boundaries for sure. Like, it's just a few relationships? right. But those are the important relationships in my life. So that's where the work is.

Terri | Yep. And they're the ones that are hard too because if we're looking at relationships, like family of origin relationships, when you think about the way that we are with boundaries in our relationships, they're like a boundary dance, right? We do different dances with different people, right? I do this, you do that. That's like how relationships are. But if you think about boundaries as dances, and as you get healthier, you start changing your steps. The people who you've been dancing with the longest, which is your family of origin, they're most likely going to be the ones who have the biggest problem.

Robin | They're not going to like the change in the dance,

Terri | No, they're gonna kick you in the shin and be like, hey, when I do this, you're supposed to do this, why aren't you doing this? You know, because for fear, though. So let's actually break down why is it that when we start to shift our boundary dance with people, we've started to become more assertive about our preferences or about our limits or about our deal breakers? Why do we get pushback from others? Now, there's more than one reason, but one main reason is that there's fear, right? There's fear of change. If you look at life, you know, I always say, you know, fear of success and fear of failure, two sides of the same coin, and that coin is fear of change. So the people in our life love us. And there's a part of them, even if it's completely unconscious, that fears that if you change too much, maybe you will no longer love them. Right? Maybe they will somehow lose you. So they feel threatened. Which is why talking about this stuff is so important. Because it doesn't, us changing our boundaries, or or being more assertive, or being more honest, like, we're not even talking about aggressive at all. Because you can always establish your boundaries with ease, with grace, with love, if it's appropriate, with a little more heat, if it's needed, depending on who it is you're talking to. So again, I think that one thing that really you know, Robin stops people from doing this is the unconscious, limiting beliefs that they have around what it means to have healthy boundaries, that it means you're selfish, and that you're bossy, and that you're rejecting people and that you're bitchy and that you're full of yourself maybe or that you are self-absorbed, or all of these things that we fear because we don't want people to perceive us that way. And yet, it's not true. Like, it's actually the most loving, the most relationship healthy thing that we can do is have the courage to have real conversations. To say, This is my preference, or I would like this, or hey, I would like to make a simple request that you don't call me after this time, or whatever the request is. And if someone immediately is like, "Oh, I didn't realize I was bothering you." Just don't take the bait. You just go, actually, for clarity. I'm not saying you were bothering me, I will reiterate that I'm asking that you please don't call after 10pm. Because I leave the phone on because I have teenagers. But then if it's you, then you wake me up. And hopefully my kids know, they're only calling me if something goes wrong. Like, that's your right to make that boundary request. And even if someone initially is like mad about it, as long as you don't get triggered into having this reactionary, like, forget it, I'll just take it back. It's okay. Don't worry about it. Because that's a lot of times we want to take it back. If we get any pushback, then we're like, "Forget it, next time, or it's fine. It's not a big deal." It's not a big deal. Like, here's the thing, changing something doesn't have to be a big deal. But if you are the person who wants to change these boundaries in your life, to assert yourself more, to be more honest about how you feel about what you want about what your preferences are, then you have to really grasp the fact that you're not that fragile. Someone cannot like it for like a minute or like forever. And you're gonna, you'll be okay. Nobody, you're not that fragile. Nobody's gonna die. Because you stop over-giving to this friend, who doesn't give squat to you. But you're the designated giver in that relationship. We really have to look at how are we relating in our lives with the people in our lives? And are we really just so much of the time and I say it this way because it's what I've seen in my therapy practice and what I did in my 20s, where it was all about just keeping the peace. Like, I mean, I was such a lover, like I loved people, I didn't want to fight with people, I was terrified of confrontation. So I didn't want that I didn't want to be rejected, I didn't want to be judged. So it was sort of going along to get along. But you can also only do that for so long until you end up pissed. And then we start blaming the other people like this person is entitled. And in reality, it's like is Betty entitled? Or do you just have no ability to set a limit with Betty? Right?

Robin | Mhmm. Yeah. So in the book, you talk about high functioning codependency, which I imagine a lot of your clients, I looked at this list, I'm like, oh, that's me, for sure. That is. You say, these are the things that you talk about that were that you identify with a high functioning codependent. Help is a dirty word, doing doing doing, over-functioning, doing things for others which they can do, or they need to learn to do for themselves. I thought, "Oh, yeah, that's, that's a telltale sign." So I wanted you to just talk a little bit more about high functioning codependency because it's like even those terms, it's almost like there's an oxymoron inside of that term. It's like the term codependent. You want to help others and somehow it feeds you. Yes.

Terri | Yes. So the reason why let's talk about the origin of that coined phrase that I made up because codependency my clients, when I would see it, I would say, Oh, hey, what you're describing as a codependent dynamic in that relationship. And inevitably, they'd be like, yeah, no, lady, you have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah, everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money. I'm making all the decisions. Everyone comes to me. I'm the rock for this family. There's no way I'm dependent on squat. And I was like, Oh, my clients don't know what codependency is. This is the problem because I saw it. I mean, over years and years. Yeah. Hundreds of people being like, no, that's not me. And I'm thinking but it is actually so. And then it was the same with me because here's the thing we all if you're old enough and you remember Codependent No More this you know, it's a seminal text written by Melody Beatty, a long time ago, it's been updated. It's still a great book. But you know, we think of codependency as like, Oh, you must be involved with an addict. You're enabling an addict to under-function. That's what codependency is. That is what codependency is, and there are so many other ways that codependency expresses itself and so I didn't see myself in that definition of codependency and I didn't see my clients but I knew what they were bringing to me was codependency. So I changed the name to high functioning codependency because here's the thing. Let's first I'll tell you my definition of codependency, you are overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the decisions, and the circumstances of the people in your life, to the detriment of your own internal peace maybe your psychological, physical, financial well being. Make sense?

Robin | Mhmm.

Terri | Okay, Because here's the thing. We're all lovers. We're all invested in the people we love being happy. So it is if it's to the detriment meaning your best friend has a problem. How quickly does that problem become your problem in your mind? And if you're listening to this or watching this and you're like, I don't know, well, then you actually do know just check your urgency. How quickly are you like getting into fix-it mode like "I'm gonna Google this, gonna get you a book and underline this, I got a friend I can hook you up with, I'm making phone calls." That is high functioning codependency and the difference is and certainly, you could be involved with an addict. But that isn't the telltale sign is that you are over-functioning to the point of having it be detrimental to you. At its base. codependency is a covert or overt desire to control the outcomes of other people. Most people don't think of it that way. But it is. And inherent in that is disordered boundaries. Right? We can't be over-functioning our asses off for other people and bossing people around and thinking that we were Miss FixIt. I know what you should do. And think that we have healthy boundaries because we don't. So being codependent, I find goes part and parcel so much of the time with people who have disordered boundaries. Anyway, there's an over-functioning and under-functioning aspect of codependency, where a lot of times we'll end up in polarized relationships where you over function, the other person or under functions. And the more you do, the less they do. I also talk about this in the book. And I think I was telling you this the other night like I had this special skill that I could take a perfectly capable person I was in a relationship with there's nothing wrong with them, they are capable. And I could literally turn them into an under-functioner in like two seconds.

Robin By you over functioning.

Terri | Yeah.

Robin | And keeping the peace is along these lines, right? Because you want to prevent some sort of outcome? By keeping the peace.

Terri | Yes, you want to, the other person, you don't want them to be in pain. You also don't want there to be conflict. But part of the description of a high functioning codependent is that we're doing it all at the expense of ourselves. But we make it look friggin easy. So people would never look at you and be like, you're codependent. They'd be like, holy crap. She's like crushing it in the world. And you may be right, and we are, but at the expense of what? Because if we have to choose between someone who's in need, and what we really need to do for ourselves will be like, it's fine. I'll rest, I'll rest when I'm dead. Or I'll rest later or this person needs me. I'm going to do it. So there's a lot of self-abandonment in this process, but what I see is high-functioning codependence a lot of what they have in common, or shall I say we, although I am in recovery, is being super capable. So you You're like the Masters of the Universe, but you're doing it at the expense of self?

Robin | Yeah, I would say that I'm in recovery as well. I really don't identify with a lot of those things in the list but I did before. I would say for sure.

Terri | Right on.

Robin | So you say that when it comes to boundaries our earlier influences, like the scene of the crime. I love this. So can you talk about how you know we learned our boundaries and our behaviors and our limiting beliefs a lot from our caregivers or parents, or whoever took care of us in our childhood. And you say the most powerful rules in families are the ones that are not explicitly stated. And each family has silent packs. I thought this was powerful. When I learned this, when you were teaching this, I'm like, Oh, that's so true. I appreciate the things that you shared about your childhood. I mean, we all have our families, and all of our families operate differently. But you're right, we have these silent packs. And so you learned, you said you learned, you and your sisters learned you know lack of communication leads to emotional unavailability, right? And speaking truthfully was not an option. Your family's silent packs are we're not to express anger directly, which is I think common in some families. Anger was taboo. You just don't talk about it. It'll just kind of go away brushed under the carpet. And you have like, it's almost, another thing I wanted to talk to you about was forbidden feelings. Right? Like, anger is a forbidden feeling you're not allowed to express anger. So anyways, there are all these things that you're talking about in the family dynamics, which I thought and this is teaching you forming how you operate as a family and individuals and how you learn boundaries.

Terri | Yep, All right, so let's take it from your unique downloaded boundary blueprint. Because that's part of what we're talking about. The way that you relate to boundaries has everything to do with what you witnessed, right? So family of origin? What were the familial, your family's cultural norms around do we let outsiders in? Is it a closed system? Is it an open system? Are we allowed to think differently than the group? Like, are we allowed to disagree? Or not? Again, oh, informing what you think is the right way to be in relationships, then you have actual cultural and societal norms around boundaries? What if you were raised in a very religious environment that heavily impacts your boundaries, the country, right, the culture, all of this stuff, and then take into consideration your role in the family system. And who you are, naturally, all of those things come together to make your unique boundary blueprint. And this is something that's in your unconscious mind. So it's like a paradigm. And you know, what do I call this, it's going down into the basement, right? This is the unconscious mind, where we gotta like, look for the information that we need. So part of what I do in the book for you and what I do in my courses is, you know, these really powerful questions that will lead you to your answers. And like, I'm so super clear, always, like, I'm literally nobody's guru on anything. But I'm a damn good GPS to get you to your answers. And so much of the time, we are unaware that we can question the way it is. I grew up in a family with, you know, my parents got divorced, and all the things I share in the book, but it was kind of a male-bashing family, where like, my, my mother, I had three older sisters and my mother's sisters and cousins, I just very female-dominated family. And the end, the vibe about men was kind of like, you know, stupid men like that, you know? Oh, typical. And so again, that is that's a norm to that I had to be like, I don't really think I want to think that like, maybe all the men you people found were stupid. But I believe that it's possible that I could find a partner in this life and relate to them with different boundaries. Right, I learned that men were people to be managed. That's a particular kind of boundary. I was like, I have zero interest in managing shit, I can barely manage my own life like I do not want. But I did it in my younger life until I have a lot of therapy where I was like, I am managing my partner, like, so depressing. So long way around the barn. To get back to when you start getting clarity by answering these questions that I give you, in the book, like, was one of your parental impactors, a people pleaser? And if the answer is yes, then you go, Hmm, okay. Well, that definitely impacted the way that I thought I should be in the world. What is the people pleaser? That someone who basically prioritizes pleasing others, over prioritizing pleasing self. Right and right there, that is an internal boundary issue that's in your relationship with yourself. Moving into the silent agreement, things that is a disordered emotional, and communication boundary. Where you learn, if you grew up in a home like I did, there was nobody needed to like send me an interoffice memo about the shit we were not talking about, like, I knew.

Robin | You knew that hey, that was off-limits. That this topic is a no-go, right? Yeah.

Terri | Yep. We're not talking about what happened last night. We're talking about poached or scrambled that that's what's happening. And so what you learn is to go, okay, maybe what I saw last night, what I think happened last night, maybe it didn't? Or maybe it's normal, or I don't friggin know. But all you know is that you're not talking about it. So these are all ways that we learn things, but it's like, silent, you know like no one has to actually teach you. They teach you by what they do. And anytime you come from a family system, and the reason I included the whole thing about forbidden emotions in the book, is that it will invariably create disordered boundaries. Because as if I'm God like I don't have the power to never experience anger. You know, I remember telling my college boyfriend. I don't do anger. He's like, Excuse me? We dated for years. Yeah, he was like, meaning. I can never be angry? I was like, yeah. He's like, even if I'm not angry at you? I was like, yeah, like no anger at all. He was like, Well, I'm not sure I can promise that. I remember his face because he came from a pretty healthy family and he was like, it's a little extreme, but Okay, I'll do my best. But if he even raised his voice about something else, I will be like, yeah, no, no, no. I'm out again. Wow. So anyway, those forbidden emotions, what happens? They turn into something else.

Robin | Transmuting your feelings, right?

Terri | Yes.

Robin | I've never heard that term before. So like unexpressed emotions, you say go underground. But it's not like, they're never going to surface again, they are going to surface. And so I think it may not be in the best way.

Terri | Right, and you will have no friggin idea when they're surfacing, what they're actually about because what happens is when we stuffed them down, we're like disavowing them. We're like, whatever, I don't see you. So I knew I couldn't be angry, but I knew if I cried, that would be okay. So the transmutation is turning the anger into an acceptable emotion so I could get something out. But it wasn't accurate. Being sad is literally not the same as being angry, right?

Robin | Yes. Right. So that and that not not happens that can happen in of course, at any age, not just, of course, legs. So unexpressed, the emotion in the moment, in the present, we can transmute that into something different. That is actually not the true emotion.

Terri | Yes. And if you do that, though, let's just say if you have if you feel something in the moment, but maybe you freeze because that happens all the time. That doesn't mean, you've lost this life opportunity to express yourself, you can always go back. And in the beginning, when you're learning about boundaries, you will most likely be more comfortable after the fact of being like, you know, I do not like what happened in that meeting with Bob, I cannot believe he said that. That is I'm so pissed right now. And then instead of stuffing it and being like, well, I missed my opportunity. I'll guess I'll have to wait till he does it again. You can stop by his office and be like, Oh, hey, Bob, I was thinking about Wednesday's meeting and I just wanted to make a simple request that you not be on your phone while I'm presenting my numbers. I found it really distracting and it kind of bummed me out. So can you do me a favor? Just none of us have our phones in there. I saw that you did. And it really bothered me. So can you please not?

Robin | Yeah. Great. Terri, I love this. I love how you teach. And it's, it's, you know, your language is full of grace. That's what it is. It's true. It's true talk, which is Terri Cole. But it's also, you know like you said, it doesn't have to come from a place of anger. And I love the language. It's a simple request. You know, Bob might turn around and say, Well, you know what I have to I have to, you know, tell you that my son was telling me he was having a problem with his teacher. And I was just I had to feel that call. And I know that was very rude. And I do want to apologize. I mean, you never know other people's circumstances are but you're handling it one on one. It was something that was bothering you, rather than turning into this big, long resentment. Right. It's just all about clearing, keeping things clear and clean.

Terri | And clean. This is all about clean agreements. And you know, Robin, such a good point, if he if that person said, Hey, I had to feild it because there was something going on in my life, I would have said, Thank you so much for telling me that. I really appreciate it. I hope your kid's okay. I would not. Because here's another thing that people do when they're trying to dominate you and stop you from talking. Like, they'll tell you something you couldn't possibly know. Like the scenario you just said, like, Oh, that was my son. There was a problem at home and I had to take it, right? I had to text or whatever the person was doing. And then it's like, I would overreact and be like, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Like, I'm so sorry. Like, there's no need to do that. If Bob had taken four seconds out of his life to shoot me an email that said, Hey, sorry, I was texting during your presentation. I had a family thing and I couldn't wait. I would have said thank you so much for the heads up. I hope everything's okay. That whole crap could have been avoided. Had he gone forward? But do you know what I mean? Like when you say to someone, hey, my feelings were hurt, and then they're overly upset. They're overly apologizing because they're trying to make you feel bad, really. They're really trying to get you back in line was like, you had some effing nerve for calling me out. Or they'll just be like, I don't know, I feel like a terrible person now. I'm like, that is on you. Because I'm literally just telling you I just made a simple request that you do not text during my presentation. So yeah, I'm not sure where that's coming from. And it's none of my business because I don't care. My feeling is don't text during my thing. Yeah, that's it that As my Do you know what I mean? Where that, to me is an emotional manipulation tactic. That really, really pisses me off. I do not like it at all. Why are you? Why are you being so over the top? It's funny, I got a message from someone the other day it was like, hey, one of my cousins who was like, Hey, I'm just calling because I know I'm a terrible cousin. And I haven't called you in so long. And I. And I texted back immediately and said, Hey, I'm not sure why you're confessing to being a terrible cousin, for not calling me when I have not called you either. And I love you just the same. If you want to get something on the calendar, I'm happy to do so.

Robin | Nice, perfect.

Terri | Guilt out of my backyard.

Robin | Yes.

Terri | Get your guilt, that has nothing to do with me,

Robin | I think that has to do with high functioning codependency as well, is the guilt that you feel. But I'm I'm getting, I'm getting better at that too. [laughs]

Terri | Work in progress babe. Work in Progress, right?

Robin | Yeah. So you say creating healthy boundaries protects you from emotional harm, keeps your personal dignity intact, and strengthens your relationships, especially the ones you have with yourself. So you mentioned the three boundary types. Well, the one that you said I may have is porous, I might be porous. So there are three boundary types, can you go into three boundary types?

Terri | Sure. Porous is where they're too loose, right? So you're more like the pushover, the chameleon, the peacekeeper. Rigid is where they're too structured, where you're more of like the loner, you're more of the ice queen, or the powerhouse, which is like, you know, a little bit like my way or the highway. Someone who could be a great leader could be super charismatic. But they're a little bit if you're rigid, you're more likely to cut someone out of your life completely before you're going to tell them like what they did that bothered you. You know, so that is too rigid, right? That's an extreme experience. And then we have healthy boundaries. And that's kind of the sweet spot, right in the middle of those two experiences. And you can have different types of boundaries in different relationships. Yes. So I find that I have some clients who are really healthy boundaries at work, they're so clear, they're very successful. And then they're like a basket case when it comes to their romantic relationships. They're so over-functioning. So their boundaries are so porous, or they're not dating at all. Because their boundaries are so rigid, they're not willing, they don't want to be vulnerable at all, and they don't want to. So those are the two extremes. And then the third is healthy boundaries, where there's a flexibility to your boundaries, right? They don't, they're not overly malleable, where you can stand for what it is that you want in your life. But you also there's flexibility like I call it like healthy flexibility, where sometimes there is a situation like Bob's kid was in some dilemma, and then, so there'd be no reason for me to continue down that path of being upset. Right. I could take in new information from Bob and go thank you so much for sharing. I hope you kids okay. That's it. Like we can leave it there. But there's flexibility rather than being stuck on the injury of like, they humiliated me in the meeting, and I'm holding on to that. I don't care what else happened. That's what happened, you know?

Robin | Okay, and then you talk about internal and external boundaries. So this was something that I learned as well. You're saying that self-abandonment is one of the main symptoms of damaged internal boundaries. So what does it mean to have healthy internal boundaries?

Terri | It means you have a good relationship with yourself. Yeah, it means that you realize or you look at life, like your relationship with yourself, according to me, sets the bar for every other relationship in your life. So if you treat yourself like crap, talk bad about yourself. Don't rest when you're tired. Don't nourish yourself with good food, don't move your body if you're able. If you work yourself to death, if you prioritize everyone and their mother, above what you want, you will inevitably attract people who agree with that low self-assessment that you don't need to be considered because you're always fine. Everything is fine. Oh, she'll do it. She's fine. I have actually a quick story about someone in one of my courses, who identified as a high functioning codependent and being overly everything, like not valuing herself. She had a neighbor ask her to take her to the airport at three in the morning, three in the morning. And she said, Okay, so as she's driving, she's like, I know, the neighbor says, My husband asked me why I asked you to drive me to the airport.

Robin | Oh my goodness! She didn't ask her husband!

Terri | Nope. She said, Because I told him, I asked you because I knew you'd say yes.

Robin | Wow.

Terri | Dude. So the takers, takers gonna take. And you've got to be a discerning giver. That's all I'm saying. But can you imagine that lady's stupid husband was sleeping in bed? While my client was in the car at 3 am when it was freezing out.

Robin | I love it. Well no I don’t. But I think that's just hilarious. So, and you also say like keeping your word to yourself. Right? It's like...

Terri | That's internal boundaries, like when you fall down on yourself, when you say, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to stop working on weekends. And then you just keep working on weekends. That is you having a disordered boundary with yourself because you're not keeping your word to yourself. And if you want healthy relationships in life, the truth is that it all starts and ends with you. It really does. So think about that. The next time you put yourself down in front of other people, make fun of your body in some way or point out some flaw that you think that you have. Think about, would you treat a five-year-old kid that you adored that way? I sure as hell hope not. Would you talk that way about your best friend? Would you expect your best friend to never rest? Would you have your best friend be last on her own list and think that that was amazing? No, you would not. So at the very least, you need to treat yourself with the same love and consideration and compassion and understanding that you do all of the other people that you bestow all of this loving sunshine on every day.

Robin | Yeah. So in your book, you have ways when it comes down to our healthy communication, and effective communication around our boundaries, you have the three R strategy. So can you please go through that for us, Terri?

Terri | Yes. So let's, let's actually talk about the three R's in respect to what do we need to do to be able to deal with what is happening in the moment? Right, because it's easy to react. So what are we looking to do? And for you, like think about it in your own life. How, how much of the time, are you able to respond instead of reacting? So with the three R's, we have to recognize. That's the first R is recognize. What is going on? Was a boundary just crossed? When did I start feeling this way? What isn't working in my life? And how do we do that? We're going to be checking in with our body, right? Because the body wisdom is unbelievable if we are willing to slow down and be like, okay, when did I start feeling this way, like what is going on? So focus on your feelings, don't judge yourself, don't judge the other person just really dial into what am I feeling right now. So body wisdom, that's one is to recognize there's a problem and try to dial into what you're feeling. And then you have to be brave, and really step out of your comfort zone, where we're releasing that physical constriction, whatever it is that you felt, sometimes it's in your throat, I almost always feel this in my chest that like constriction from a conflict or a comment someone made, or something that I know, I need to deal with it. So part of the release, though, that's number two is releasing. Release the physical, but also release the familiar, right, a lot of times, we're just going to now get on autopilot. So we're not going to do that. It might be a limiting belief, right? That this happened, oh, because this person thinks I'm stupid. Let's just say if that's like a fear that someone has, we like that's a limiting belief, but it's familiar to us because we've been telling it to ourselves forever. So we have to be willing to release, right? Identify anything that's happening that has to do with you, and does not have to do with the other person. Because a lot of times, we just like trip into a rabbit hole of our own making, where someone says something and we're like, oh my god, it means all of these things.

Robin | Story making, right?

Terri | That is correct. So we have to release that. Because you want to be able to say, Hey, this is old crap. And this is current and this is what is real and this is what I'm actually upset about. And then the third R is to respond. So we're responding instead of reacting. Instead of reacting, we are choosing to speak and act from a more mindful and really conscious place. Making a simple request, asking for what we want. prioritizing our own preference, telling someone that you didn't like something that happened, right? Tell someone about a deal-breaker, a desire, it's you taking new action. So the three Rs you can just keep them sort of in your pocket, which is recognize what the problem is, release any old habitual reaction to that problem, and then respond from sort of this, this more mindful place. And this is how we change ingrained patterns.

Robin | Yes. You talk about mindfulness and meditation, and how, and your Zen Den, I love that how you've got this little space in your home, and you encourage all of us to have that. And just taking the moments, each day of mindfulness and quiet, has translated into your life as like a three seconds, right, three more seconds that you have in to, to actually reflect and, and then respond. Because even that gap, that space, just it's like, it's like this. I just think of it as grace, you're allowing grace in, rather than the reaction?

Terri | Yes. Because of the reaction, here's the thing about mindfulness practices that gain you that response time, that's what we're talking about. When I started this mindfulness practice when I really got my meditation discipline 20 years ago, the most profound change was that I gained two to three seconds of response time in every situation. Now think about your life people who are listening, maybe watching this on YouTube would your life change? My life changed completely because I was a hot-headed Arias kind of a young soul more of like an if you're into, like a Pitta a too hot Pitta. Meaning I would be hitting send on that pissed-off email. I would be texting before I had a chance to be like, Hey, this is gonna be a shit show later. I don't even care because I'm so mad right now. In getting those two to three seconds, my life become became so much more harmonious. For me. It's not about other people. It's about having to clean up those messes all the time, was friggin exhausting and I didn't want to do it. So the more you can tend to this internal sacred space, the more expansion you end up creating in your life, so in your body, but also in your mind. And in your life. We always feel like we're in a rush, we feel like we have to give everyone an instant answer. We feel many of us are under the gun. And I want this idea of expansion to ripple out into every part of your life because you don't owe anyone an immediate answer for anything. So those of you who tend to say yes, when you really kind of wish you could say no, or you're just sort of giving an automatic, yes. There's time for you to breathe, for you to say, I need to think about that. For you to say, I need to check my calendar, I need to check with my partner, I need to check with my friend. Or how about to be like, I'm not sure I want to do that. Are we allowed to just not want to do something? I say we are.

Robin | So I've got a community question that I wanted to ask. But first I did want to touch on indecision. You say indecision is a common experience for women with disordered boundaries. If your boundaries are too loose or porous. You may fear hurting another person or being rejected or ridiculed for a decision. Indecision can be an unconscious way of avoiding that situation. So what would you say if you're someone who has a hard time making decisions? How can that person change that about themselves?

Terri | I know exactly how. You're going to use the secondary gain questions and I'm going to tell you right now, so you can have a deeper understanding of what the unobvious gain is by staying in indecision. I'm not saying this is the only thing that creates indecision, but it definitely does create indecision. So you're going to ask yourself, what do I get to not face not feel, or not experienced by not deciding?

Robin | Not face, not feel or not experience. Yeah.

Terri | By not deciding, because what ends up happening.

Robin | Postponing.

Terri | Yeah, because if you do it long enough, you know that shit gets made for you, that decision will get made, but you're not on the hook for it. But then again, are you on the hook for your life? You are regardless of whether you let a decision happen to you because you waited so long. And a lot of times, if you ask that question, what do I get to not face, not feel, not experience? By staying in a decision I get to not face people's potential disapproval. I get to not feel afraid of doing something new, let's say, or of making the wrong choice. This is huge in my therapy practice, and I'm all like, hey man it's your life. Like, it's not like that, there's no like Oz in the sky to tell us what is right and wrong. This is life school, we're alive, we're gonna be learning, we're gonna be making mistakes, quote, unquote, that doesn't mean that that was the wrong decision. It just means maybe you change your mind, you know, part of the Boundary Boss Bill of Rights is what? We give ourselves permission to make mistakes, course correct, or change my friggin mind. Yeah. Because you're allowed to do that. So I think the fear that perfectionism, and that fear of making mistakes, creates such a small life experience. When again, I want to say you're not that friggin fragile. You'll be okay, we all make mistakes, and no one has ever done anything great in life who wasn't willing to make a crap ton of mistakes.

Robin | Yeah. Love that. So I've got a community question here. "My boyfriend is having anxiety about breaking boundaries in our relationship. We have very basic boundaries, like not flirting with other people, sexting with others, sleeping with others." I think those are pretty big boundaries. [laughs] "We've actually written these things down. The problem is my boyfriend's constantly anxious that he's going to break one of these boundaries. He says that he can't promise not breaking any of these boundaries, but he can try. He says he doesn't trust himself. How can I help him with his anxiety? How can I also stay sane and navigate this situation?"

Terri | So this is a self-created situation. Right? Because most couples, I mean, listen, you have basic rules of engagement. Sure. But it's so specific of what you're talking about. And I don't think that these are, if you're in a monogamous relationship, this shit goes without saying. I expect you to not have sex with someone else if we're in a monogamous relationship.

Robin | Yeah, you don't have to write it down.

Terri | You don't have to. And it's okay that you did. It's an agreement. There's nothing wrong with it. But I'm saying this is not out of the norm at all. Some people don't care about someone else flirting. Some people don't. I mean, sexting, you've got to be out of your mind. If you're in a monogamous relationship. sexting, obviously is out. But you know, some people look at flirting differently. Anyway, my point is, that it's not your job to help your boyfriend with his anxiety. It's your job to understand why together and you can only understand your piece of this. Why are these types of rules that are so explicit important? Have you been cheated on before? Is there infidelity in your family system, in your family tree? There is in mind, so no judgment. Just, I want you to get like dialed into why this? Right, because it could be anything that we chose to write down. But these are the things that you chose to write down. So I would get really curious without judgment of your own experience of this. How is this familiar to you? Were you trying? Was it you trying to because it sounds like it's you trying to put these behavioral boundaries around the relationship? Because he's the one saying, I don't know that I can do it. So it makes me think it probably wasn't him who came up with the idea. So the question is why without judgment, so don't judge yourself. Don't judge him. But why? Why is this the conversation? And what is your conscious and unconscious relationship to infidelity? Is there a fear? Have you had this experience before? Did your parents have infidelity in their marriage? Because there's something that's resonating as an old wound to me in this. And really, it's it we're all we all have free will. Right? So either your partner wants to be in this relationship with these boundaries that you guys have agreed upon? Or perhaps they need to be renegotiated. But it's, it's not for you to help him keep it. He's a grown person, you're a grown person. It's for him to manage it. If you need to get into therapy to manage it, manage it. If you don't think you want to do it, and you want to come to me and see if I want to have an open relationship. Let's do that. Let's talk about that. But like your side of the street is you is what I'm saying. Was that helpful? I don't know if I was. Was that clear?

Robin | Yeah. It's very helpful because you're right. It's like, that person is like, Okay, I need to take care of my boyfriend's anxiety. But she has to stay on her side of the street or his side of the street. I don't know if that was...

Terri | Yes. Yes.

Robin | That's good.

Terri | Agreed.

Robin | So another community question is, "What do you do when your boundaries are repeatedly crossed in a serious relationship?"

Terri | Well, first, I would need to know if you actually had a conversation, specifically about the boundary. Did you make a boundary request? Did you let the person know how you felt? What happened? Do they know that this is a deal-breaker for you? And that is really the most important part of this conversation. Because a lot of times, people feel like they have a boundary that's been crossed endlessly, but they have never had a boundary conversation with the person. So we have to have a boundary conversation with the person. And then if the person is a repeat offender, there has to be a consequence attached to, hey, if this continues to happen, let's assume that something egregious, right, if you step out on the relationship, kind of harkening back to the last question, I will end the relationship. Right, I will, like be clear about something because the reason why boundaries don't all come in one, you know, boundary requests are not all the same. A preference is not as important as the limit. And a limit is not as important as a deal-breaker. So whatever your deal breakers are, you have a right to have them. But when we assign a consequence, to an action, where we let the other person know, hey, if you continue to have contact with your ex-girlfriend, and lie to me about it I'm out, you have to move out, or I don't want to be in this relationship like I'm trying to think of better examples than I can.

Robin | So in your book, there's an example. And I wanted to talk about this example because the language around this was so good. It's about let's say your partner leaving the towel on the floor repeatedly, right? And this is what you were teaching in the book, was the nonviolent communication on how to approach this situation. But let's just say okay, first of all, I wanted to talk about the language that you taught in this. And then what if that boundary was continually crossed and your partner did not end up picking up the towel? So I wanted to ask you about this, what would be a consequence. So the towel on the wet floor. So that was me, then before I read the book, I'd be like, can you please pick up your wet towel rather than leaving it on the floor? That's a simple request. Like, I'm asking, Can you please pick up your wet towel, but in the example that you gave if you're going to be using nonviolent communication, it's like you want to observe. Right?

Terri | I noticed that that sopping wet towel was on my wood floor.

Robin | Yeah, yes. I see that there's a wet towel on the floor and I feel frustrated. Yes. It upsets my need for order. So you're, you're you're presenting your need. Can I please ask you to hang up your towel to protect the wood floor?

Terri | And my sanity? Yeah.

Robin | Yes. Exactly. Because it really really upsets me. Yeah. So that is a different way of saying rather than just saying, please pick up your towel off the wet floor.

Terri | Yes. Because we're owning it, though, but by using and that's really Marshall Rosenberg's framework from nonviolent communication. Very brilliant book, very brilliant person. Here's the thing. So you said so what if? What if I said that just like that? And my person didn't care? And my person still did it? I would, I would, honestly, myself, I would know we have bigger problems than the towel on the wood floor. Because when someone continually does something that they know, down deep somewhere is going to really piss you off. This is an example of passive-aggressive expression of anger. They can't handle telling you the thing, but they're gonna do something so you explode. Eventually, that towel is on the floor for days in a row. At some point, you're gonna be like, Are you kidding me with the towel? Like, yeah, there's no way.

Robin | Deep down it's just respect it's, it's so showing us something way deeper.

Terri | Yes. So I don't know that I would go for it. In reference to the towel. I think at that point, I'd have to say, Listen, clearly, we're speaking the same language. Yet, we're still hitting this thing. What is this actually about? Let's talk about what it's really about. Are you mad at me about something else that you don't want to talk about? Or that you’re afraid to talk about? Like, I feel like there's hostility in this behavior. I could be wrong, but I think I'm not.

Robin | Oh, that's good. That's good. Oh, my goodness. I can't believe the hour went by so fast Terri, and every time talk to you I just love it because I learn so much and I laugh. I love you, Terri. [laughs]

Terri | I love you too Robin. This was so fun.

Robin | I really, I love your book. For those of you that first of all, everybody has to go to your website and take the boundary style quiz. And of course read your book because Boundary Boss, it's fantastic. So,

Terri | Yes, and hold on. I also have a gift for your people.

Robin | Oh, thank you!

Terri | So you guys are gonna love it, and it's basically about how to set boundaries with kindness, with love, because I think that this is something that a lot of people struggle with. So you're gonna get it at boundaryboss.me/love. That's where you're going to find it.

Robin | Wonderful. Thank you, we'll make sure you put that in the show notes too. Language around how to put down boundaries with love.

Terri | Yes, love and kindness.

Robin | So that we can all become boundary masters and boundary bosses. Boundaries with kindness. Oh, that's good. That's good. Because of course, that is the lesson, that is one that is the overarching message that I really got from this. And I believe that I'm on that path to be hopefully becoming a boundary boss. Is that I want to be, I strive to be a kind individual, and clear and concise and boundaries are a loving, loving, that you're loving yourself your boundaries and loving others the most by putting boundaries in your life or having boundaries.

Terri | Yes, being honest. Yes. Because really what we're talking about is being truthful. And if we're not, if we're saying yes when we want to say no, we're just giving corrupted data to the people in our lives who love us. They don't really know us. And eventually, that becomes very empty. You keep the peace. You know, what does Cheryl Richardson say? By like biting your tongue, like to keep the peace you start a war within yourself. You know, and we don't You don't need to do that. People are, you'd be shocked at how much of the time people will be like, thank you so much for caring enough to tell me that. Well, you're welcome.

Robin | Well thank you, Terri, thank you for sharing your time with us and your book is fantastic. So thank you very much for writing it.

Terri | Thank you, Robin.

Robin | And we'll chat soon.

Terri | Yes we will. To be continued.

Robin | Okay, bye.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey