Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode #12 with Terry Real | Transcript

22.06.16

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today I had the immense pleasure of interviewing my new friend, couples therapist, world renowned speaker and author, Terry Real. We talked about his newest book, Us: Getting Past You and Me to Build A More Loving Relationship and went through some transformative skills for bettering your intimate relationships. This is a conversation I'm so proud and grateful to have had, enjoy.

Welcome to the let's talk love podcast where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love regardless of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to our episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm so excited to announce today we're going to be speaking with Terry Real. And Terry, I want to let you know that I have been literally counting down the sleeps until our discussion today, you're somebody who I look up to I admire and I don't mean that from a grandiose place. [laughs] Or from a shameful place. It's like we're on the same footing here. But I really I just admire your work, and you're doing incredible, incredible work in the world. And I'm so incredibly pleased to have this time with you.

Terry Real |Thank you, my dear, it's always a joy to be with you.

Robin Ducharme | So I'm going to introduce you, Terry, for those that don't know you. And we're going to be talking about your new book, which is so fantastic. Look, I'm sorry about my coffee stain. But that's the way it goes. So Terrence Real is an internationally recognized family therapist, speaker and author, you founded the Relational Life Institute offering workshops for couples, individuals and parents, along with a professional training program for clinicians to learn all about relational life therapy methodology. And we're going to go into that. Your Relational Life Institute grew out of your extensive empathic experience, and you teach people how to make their relationships work by providing products and services designed to teach the principles of relational life so that everyone can enjoy full, respectful living, and craft a healthy life legacy. And, you know, this is a really good point, you know, in your bio, Terry, about changing family legacy. I really, I really appreciate that that's important stuff, right? We can carry forward the things that work in our families. But I really think if you're going to be a conscious individual, in this day and age, it's like you recognize what was definitely not working for you in your family system and take the responsibility for making those changes.

Terry Real | You know, first of all, I love being here with you. You're a great interviewer. We always have a good time, family legacy that they say that is the height of presumption to quote yourself, but I often do. This is from my first book back in 1995. I Don't Want To Talk About It. Here's the quote, "Family pathology rolls from generation to generation, like a fire in the wood, taking down everything in his path. Until one person in one generation has the courage to turn and face the flames. That person brings peace to his ancestors and spares the children that follow." And as you know, my wife Belinda Berman, great family therapist and I call these people heroes. Changing the legacy by putting your own body on the line, changing the legacy by the way you live your life and handing to the next generation a brighter future than the one you were handed. To me this is the most heroic work an individual can engage.

Robin | I fully, wholeheartedly agree. I love it. So I've got a million quotes that I have, Terry Real quotes that I wanted to share with our community. Your one quote is, "We do not live in a relationship cherished culture. We live in a patriarchal, narcissistic, co addictive culture. Most of us have not been raised by relationally skilled parents and so we don't know how to be as intimate as we want to be. We've never wanted to be more intimate than we want to be right now. But we just don't have the wisdom or skills to build a sustaining relationship." That is the truth of this, right? Because we just we weren't, you know, in university. I love the fact that Dr. Solomon is teaching this course in university to college students how to build a healthy marriage, marriage 101, right? Most of us I mean, come on now. I didn't, you know, I got my business degree. I sure as heck didn't, you know, take any courses in relationship skills. But how important is this? The education is so important.

Terry | Right. Right. You know, historically, we have never wanted more from our relationships than we do right now. I mean, my grandparents and even my parents generation, I write about this, I call it the companionable marriage, if you're good companions, nobody beat anybody. Nobody cheated too bad. Nobody drank too much. That was good enough. But nowadays, we really want to be lifelong lovers, we want long walks on the beach, we want heart to heart talks. We want great sex in our 60s and 70s and 80s, we really want to be heart to heart connected for our whole lives. But we live we don't live in a relationship cherishing culture. No one is taught the school have the skills. And we simply don't have the sophistication to pull off this new demand. And people are miserable in their relationships, one out of two of them crashes and burns. And of the two out of four that remain how many are really happy. So this is about mastering a relationship technology. How to speak up for yourself. I'm doing a workshop if I can put in a plug, come to my website, terryreal.com. It's the first ever Us workshop. And I'm going through basic skills, how to stand up for yourself and be loving at the same time. How to listen non defensively, how to make peace, when there's an argument, how to disarm somebody who's upset with you how to deal when you're in your centered adult and your partner is completely, you know, off track, how to cherish each other. These are basic relationship skills that should be taught in elementary school and junior high and high. And by the way, if I can say this, we just started filming a documentary about my life and work. And along with the documentary, The documentarian, Michelle Ezarik, has received funding for us to begin a curriculum in relationship skills in elementary school, junior and high school. But this should be taught all over the world. How to have a basic relationship and handle yourself well. And so that's where the book comes in. You know, I say, all relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony and repair, closeness, disruption, and a return to closeness. And our culture doesn't even recognize that this harmony exists, let alone give us the tools to move back from disharmony into repair. And that's where people like you and me, and coaches and authors, like me come in, to really teach people how to do it. But we all want it. We want to have good relationships, but we just mess it up.

Robin | Absolutely. And you talk about, and this is something that the idealizing relationships, okay, that, you know, culturally, we're making the mistake of, you know, it's so prevalent. It's a dangerous way of thinking in our society. Every movie and fairy tale tells us this lie, right? It's like, if there's any disharmony. We're the ones that are to blame. It's like this is not good. We were looking, you used to talk about relational shame. Right? How you're looking at couples next to you going they're way happier than we are. We're miserable. We're totally failing at this. You have to reframe it. Relationships are full of turmoil. They're full of disharmony. And it's how we get back to the place of harmony, return to closeness. But how do we get there? But I mean my point is, is that even as a culture, we're just so ingrained to believe that having any sort of arguments is dysfunctional.

Terry | Well, you know, we worship the harmony phase. Just like, great sex is a 21 year old person's sex life and a great body is the body of an 18 year old. That's nonsense. It's the whole rhythm of harmony, disharmony and repair. I'm pleased to say just last Monday, the New York Times in the well section, did a q&a with me called a couples therapist takes on normal marital hatred.

Robin | Yes. I love this! Talk about that. Please tell us what normal marital hatred is, please.

Terry | I've been talking to audiences for 30 years about normal marital hatred. And not one person has ever come backstage and said, What do you mean by that? There are times in your relationship where you hate each other. That's okay. There are times when you feel bitterly stabbed in the heart betrayed, the dark night of the soul. And that doesn't mean you're in a bad relationship. It means you're in a real relationship, but makes a good relationship, is not avoiding that but handling that when it happens. And that's where things get dicey. Let me explain why a little bit. The autonomic nervous system scans our body four times a second, am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? If the answer is yes, I'm safe. We stay seated in that prefrontal cortex, the most mature part of the brain doesn't develop until 26 years old, the part of the brain that can stop and think and reason, the part of the brain that can hold that we're in a relationship that there's a hole. If the answer's no, I'm in danger. This part of the brain shuts down what I call the wise adult part of it. And more primitive parts of the brain take over, and it stops being about us. There's no recognition of us. And it's about you versus me, by my survival, fight, flight, or fix, and the autonomic and automatic part of us. I call it the adaptive child, part of us takes over and you do the same old coping strategy that you learned as a kid growing up over and over and over again, fight, flight, or fix. I would like those listening to us and you too Robin to out ourselves for a moment.

Robin | Oh, I'm a total fixer. I know. For sure. And talk about this.

Terry | Spoken like a women and spoken like a mental health professional. And let me be clear, there's a difference between a sober, thoughtful, let me see what I can do to make this work better. That's being an adult, and a compulsive codependent. Oh my god, I'm anxious. You feel bad. Let me do anything I need too do to make you feel better. That's a fixer. And that's your adaptive child. No doubt. You're a fixer in childhood, right?

Robin | Oh, absolutely. I was that person, between my parents that, you know, if they wanted to say something to each other after they were separated and divorced, or even when they were together, it was like, they would talk to me and I was the mediator. I was that person. I was I was their voice between them. Oh, my gosh, I was a young girl, like totally the fixer, it was my role.

Terry | What a burden, right? This is all about your role in your family growing up and how you cope. And the problem is that we bring these early coping strategies to trauma to our adult relationships. And they don't work they worked then. It was great then, being a fixer was just what you had to do back then, as a little girl, but you're not that little girl. You're not facing your warring parents. And things have changed. But we use the same automatic knee jerk responses over and over again. I don't know if I told you this story last time I was on but I always tell the same story. May I tell the story?

Robin | Yes, please Terry. I love your stories.

Terry | Okay, you're absolutely true. You know that my beat are couples on the brink of divorce that no one else has been able to help. So there was a couple on the brink of divorce. Why? The guy's a chronic liar. He lies about everything. And when I talk to him, he's the kind of guy I say to him, the sky is blue. He says to me, well as aquamarine, he's not going to give it to me, right? So between his wife's description of him, and watching the way operates with me, in five minutes, I have what I teach my students to call his relational stance, his shtick, you're a fixer, the thing he does over and over again. So what's his stance? He's an evador, the guy has a black belt in evasion. So then I asked him a question, that if you aren't thinking relationally sounds like oh, that's brilliant. Where, but if you're thinking relationally is easy. This is his adaptive child part. He's an evdaor. Okay. What was he adapting to? So I say to him, who tried to control you growing up? Sure enough, his father, his father was a military man. How he sat, how he stood, his courses, his friends, everything I say to him, how did you cope with this controlling man? And he looked at me and smiled, that smile is important, that's the smile of resistance. I liked that. I said, How did you cope? He said, I lied. Brilliant, brilliant little boy. I teach my students to always respect the exquisite intelligence of the adaptive child. You fixed your parents, you had to. Lord knows what your life would have looked like if you hadn't fixed your parents. I was a fighter, I stood up to my violent father, lord knows what would have happened to me if I hadn't stood up. He was a liar. He would have been owned by this man, if he hadn't cleverly preserved himself by lying. But I say adaptive then maladaptive now.

Robin | Maladaptive now. So the behavior, yeah, the behavior has no longer is no longer serving, because you, if you're acting from your child self, which is all about protection, you're if you're functioning from that place as an adult, it's maladaptive. It's actually going against you. It's like...

Terry | It doesn't fit. That's what maladaptive means it's not adaptive. It doesn't fit. So we surface all this true story. They come back in two weeks, hand in hand, all smiles, we're fixed. And they were. They said, Okay, tell me the tale. His wife sent him off to the grocery store for 12 things true to form, he comes home with 11. She says, Where's the pumpernickel? He says, Every muscle and nerve in his body was screaming to say to her, they were out. And in this moment, he took a breath. He thought of me. He looked his wife in the eye. And he said, I forgot the pumpernickel. And she burst into tears. And she said, I've been waiting for this moment for 25 years. That's recovery. That's moving out of your adaptive child into the wisdom of your adult in the heat of the moment. And that's what this book is all about how to grow that muscle and cultivate that skill.

Robin | I love that. And you know what, you're making a really good point right now, Terry, that this is not something it's a muscle. Right? Change doesn't happen. Sometimes it can happen instantly. I you know, I believe that we're, you know, evidence of that. But often you have to practice in all these different situations, right?

Terry | Yes, that's true. I say intimacy isn't something you have. It's something you do. And it's something you can learn to do better. You know, Robin, people always say that relationships take work, but they don't tell you what the work is. Yes, I have a New Yorker cartoon. These two couples are facing each other and the caption reads, now this work on your relationship, are you're doing it yourselves or having it done? Listen, the work of relationship is not even day by day it's minute to minute. In this heated moment right now, when you're flooded, when you're trauma triggered when you're on automatic? Are you going to just repeat the same old damn thing? Or like this man, are you going to take a breath or 10 I'm a big fan of breaks. Take a walk around the block, splash some water on your face, talk to that little boy, do what you need to do to get re centered in that adult part of you, and then go back into the relationship. The ugh news here is it is only that wise adult part of us that wants to be intimate, the adaptive child part of us just oneself, I call it me and you consciousness, the me and you, part of us when we're triggered, is about survival. It's about you versus me, a big power struggle, one of us is going to win, one of us is going to lose, it's a zero-sum game. It's only the prefrontal cortex, the wise adult, that understands, wait a minute, we're a team, we have to work this out in a way that works for both of us. And the art is moving out of that triggered automatic response into the wise part of you. And then from that place, entering into your, you know, I gave workshops around the country for years. And my favorite slide is this one. Other workshops teach you skills, we deal with the part of you that won't use them.

Robin | Yes, yes. And you say that the most important question that you are asking your clients, it's not tell me the dynamics, all that, it's who am I dealing with?

Terry | Which part of you am I speaking to?

Robin | Yeah. So can you can you please give us an example, Terry of, let's say, you know, when you recognize as a therapist, that the person you're talking to, is definitely coming from a child place versus please give us an example of somebody telling the story and explaining to you from an adult place?

Terry | Yeah. Well, first of all, I have a saying, There's no such thing as overreacting. It's just that what you're reacting to, may not be what's in front of you. It may be what's behind you. And the idea is trauma. Memory is a misnomer. You don't remember trauma, you relive it in it. You know, the vet walking down Main Street, or here's a car backfire and spins around like he's got to. He's not thinking on walking down Main Street remembering combat, viscerally, he's back there. And what happens to us is when we get triggered, we're back there were that little boy and girl, and we're dealing with that towering figure of mom, or look, I grew up in an angry, violent family. When my wife Belinda is critical of me, which she is only once or twice a year, of course, but when she is critical of me if I'm in a weakened state, my wounded child, a very young part of me, will get triggered and I'm back with my screaming father. And I have about two seconds worth of tolerance for that. And then my adaptive child comes in, and I'm a fighter. Belinda's a fighter, and it's like, screw you screw me. And, you know, yeah, you're gonna be critical of me listen to this. And then the two of us are what I call off to the races. On a good day, if Belinda is critical of me. I have a, I call it woosh, that wave comes up from the feet. I'm gonna bop her in the nose. But having done this work for 30 years now, when I first started there was literally a voice in my head that would say, "Terry, shut up." That's the first thing Shut up. Don't act this out. Breathe. Come down from that one up. Come down from that rage. Belinda is having a bad day. You don't have to make her bad day your bad day. Put up a boundary. Protect yourself. Now, Honey, I'm sorry. You feel bad. Tell me what you're feeling bad about. Let's see what we can do to make that better. That's the wise adult. Only there do I have a snowball's chance in hell of avoiding the fight and making things better between the two of us. So I call this the proto skill, the first skill. The first skill before you can use any others is getting centered. I call it remembering love. Remember that the person you're speaking to is someone you care about. And the reason why you're opening your mouth is to make things better. And if you're not there, and I want everybody listening to be dead honest with themselves, if you're about as being right, or controlling your partner, or retaliating, or ventilating or withdrawing, all bets are off. Wait until you really want to make things better between you and your partner, and then make your move. That's the skill.

Robin | Yeah, that's, that is such a hard thing to do. And like you said, like, when you're in that place of being triggered, you're just your mind's not working properly. And that's actually like a science behind it. Right?

Terry | Right. You're not in the right frame of brain.

Robin | You can't come from a centered place. You're not mindful. You're in your protection.

Terry | Yeah, yeah. fight, flight or fix is like you're in survival mode. And but the beauty, I think the revolution of this book, and the workshop we're teaching is you can literally build that muscle, I call it relational mindfulness, you can train and cultivate, shifting out of that triggered state into a more centered state. And then using skills from there, you will never use skills from that adaptive child part of you, that part of you doesn't want to use skill, that part of you doesn't want to make things better. He just wants to grind your partner into the ground or fix them, or whatever that image your agenda is. So first, you have to deal with yourself. You know, one of the things I say is maturity comes when we deal with our inner children, and don't force them off on our partners to deal with. It's a two step process. And you know, literally, and I'm a knew of this for decades. When Belinda is mad at me I'll take little Terry, I have, I know him very well, about eight years old. And I put them behind me. And I say to him, Look, I'll make you a deal between you and the anger coming at us is me, my big body, my grown up self, you will be protected from the blast back. That's my part of the deal. Here's your part of the deal. Don't you deal with Belinda, you let me deal with her. You're gonna make a hash, but I can do better than you can. And that's the practice. That's my practice, it's the practice I arm my clients to do every day. I have big burly men, you know, saying to excuse me, I need a break, dashing to the bathroom, sitting on the john, putting their little boy on their lap and saying, okay, come on, chill. It's cool. It's cool. I got it. And big these big tough guys. Literally take a five minute break and go talk to their little boys and come back and say okay, honey, what do you need? That is the blessing of choosing peace over your adaptive child agenda.

Robin | Love it. So I've got a personal question. And I framed it as a community question, but it's Robin Ducharme. My question is, what does it look like to be a healthy pursuer? I realize I have an anxious attachment style and I'm a fixer. I own it. If my husband and I are dealing with an issue, I want to talk about it and get back to repair as fast as possible. I don't want to be in the conflict. But I do see myself as an angry pursuer especially when he shuts me down and will stop the conversation saying he needs a break and will not continue talking about it then. How do I change my approach to healthier pursuer? And I think you just answered that question. I need to do a lot more mindfulness and centering.

Terry | Well hold on, before you answer your own question. You're such a pursuer, you're going to ask the question, you're going to answer it before me. [both laugh] Let me answer it for you. My first tip is to your husband. And it has to do with the way he takes distance. I tell and I go in to this in the book and in the skills course. I talk about the way we normally take distance in this culture which is just saying I'm done, and then no and responsible distance taking. I'm taking distance. Here's why. I need a few minutes to collect myself. And here's when I'm coming back. It's not a rupture. It's a break. See you're anxious. And if he just takes distance, you're gonna get more anxious you're gonna go after him. But if he just names it and takes care of you, you will relax and he can have his damn distance. So my first tip is to your husband, take care of you and then take the distance but now to you. What you're anxious about probably is abandonment. That's my guess, that when you grew up, your emotional needs were not connected with, you were not aligned with and you were emotionally abandoned.

That's trauma triggering, since you want to be part of that, let's do it Robin.

Adults don't get abandoned. Adults get left. Abandoned is a child ego state. Abandoned means without you I die. And I have a touch of that I understand what that feels like. And it feels like you're gonna die. I mean somebody's taking the air out of the room. I have to reestablish this connection, or I'm gonna die.

Robin | This makes perfect sense to me, Terry, I just want to say this is not a personal therapy session. But my parents separated a lot when we were growing up. And my dad would literally my mom would kick him out. And my dad would literally pack his bags and he would be gone. We didn't know how long he was gonna be going for. He literally did abandon us. I mean, really, it did happen. So like that makes perfect sense to me.

Terry | Right? So here's what I want to tell you. You are not terrified of abandonment. That little girl inside you is. She's carrying that. So when your husband takes off, even if it's unseen, even if he leaves in a huff like your dad did. You before you go after him. Sit down. Take that little Robin in your lap, sooth her. He may abandon you, but I won't abandon you. I'm right here, honey. You are not alone. I call this remembering abundance. And I do this practice. I have this issue in my own marriage when Belinda storms off, which is rare these days. But when Belinda storms off. I remember abundance. Your listeners can do this with me. And you can do it right now take a moment, this is what I would do if we were in my office. Take a moment close your eyes. And take a take a few sweet breaths. It may take you a breath or two to get a good one. And I want you to remember that this moment, right now is abundant. This connection between us, this conversation, this podcast. No bombs are dropping. No one's dying. We're not starving. This is a sweet, abundant moment. And I would say to myself, after Belinda left the room, she did not take all the abundance of the world with her when she left, it's right here. I can feel it in my breath. And that will take the temperature and bring it down. The cure for abandonment is the remembrance of abundance. And abundance is with you. No one can take it away from you. You just have to get yourself centered. And sooth that little abandoned girl.

Robin | I love that.

Terry | And then leave him the hell alone.

Robin | Yeah.

Terry | Don't go after him.

Robin | Yep. It's beautiful. That is absolutely beautiful. Terry.

Terry | Tell me what it was like to hear that? What did that feel like?

Robin | It just felt so loving. And held. I felt very held.

Terry | And the beauty is you begin to learn to hold you. So that you're not as dependent on someone else.

Robin | Yes.

Terry | We take care of our little boys and girls, and don't demand that our partners take care of them. And don't retaliate when they don't take care them. He may not be there for you. But I'm here for you. That's what I have all the people I work with, say to themselves over and over again. That's what I teach in the book. That's what I live in my own life.

Robin | Yeah. And like you said, you're coming from a place of abundance versus lack. I got you. Right? It's so beautiful. So can we talk about power imbalances? Because this is you see this a lot of course between couples, okay. You talk about how we cannot be intimate from a one up or one down position. And something I have learned from you over the years is the you know the behavior of grandiosity. Can you please talk to us about grandiosity and shame because shame I think is definitely something we're all familiar with. But the grandiosity behavior.

Terry | Well, I'm a feminist family therapist, I have been writing and critiquing patriarchy for decades now. And RLT, the therapy I've created. And if you're a therapist listening to this come train with us. RLT is one of the few therapies that takes on power imbalances in relationships. For 50 years, therapy has been essentially focused on helping people come up from the one down of shame, inferiority, feeling defective, less than unworthy. Good, that's great work. But we've completely ignored the other self esteem disorder, how to help people come down from the one up of superiority, grandiosity, contempt, entitlement, feeling above the rules. And I'm here to tell you, you're not going to be able to help men, if you don't teach them how to come down from grandiosity, and you won't be able to help people move into intimacy, you cannot love from the one down and you cannot love from the one up, you have to be equal to love demands democracy. So the work that I do is very much about helping people come down from that one up, as well as up from the one down. Why do you come down from the one up? For your sake, because it's poison. It may feel good. And one of the tricky things about grandiosity is that unlike shame, grandiosity, feels good. It feels good to scream at somebody, it feels good and make out with your secretary. It feels good to have that second plane and Ben and Jerry's, and think that nothing bad will happen to you. Grandiosity feels good. You have to be smart, you have to use your head, you have to think your way down. So I talk to people about living a contempt free life, free of contempt between you and others, and free of contempt between your ears, and grandiosity and shame are fueled by contempt. When that can, it's like a flashlight. When the beam of contempt lands on me, we call that shame. You're such a shit, you're such an asshole. When that beam of contempt falls on you we call that grandiosity. She's the same word, same language, same energy. I want you to turn off the flashlight, live a nonviolent contempt free life for your sake. So here's a story: I live in Boston mass home of the worst drivers in the United States. That's statistcally true. That's been proven. So I'm a New Yorker. And in New York, somebody cuts you off, and they speed up and they're a jerk. But you know, whatever. In Boston, is the land of the passive aggressive, somebody cuts you off, they drop to 20 miles an hour, stick their Fanny in your face and make you wait there. So I get some guy who does that right. And I'm looking through my windshield at that fat little face. And I'm doing that Star Wars laser beam, you know, like exploding his face with my laser beam. And I'm in a rage. And when I was a young man, and truly literally, I would pull beside somebody like that roll down my window and let them have it both barrels. So here I am in a total superior one up rage. The guy's a jerk. Doesn't know how to drive. He's an ass. I'm great. One up rageful stay. And here's what I say. And as I breathe myself down, from that one up rage, we do a lot of breathing in relational life work. Breathe into your heart, breathe into center, breathe yourself down. From that one up. I'll look at that fat little head. And I'll say to that guy, you may not deserve but I deserve.

You may deserve to have somebody pull up next to you and tell you what an entitled driver you are. But not today. Somebody else is gonna do that. I grew up in a contempt drenched family. I internalized that contempt. And it became a depression I wrestled with for decades. I played out that contempt and ruin many relationships. Not today baby. I don't need it. I breathed myself down into a contempt free state of peace. Not for you. But for me. So coming up from the one down of shame, coming down from the one up of grandiosity, I do this and I teach the people I work with to do this, because it's a better way to live.

Robin | Yeah, it sure is. And you know, you do say that about, it's like, you think grandiosity and shame, they're on the same spectrum. It's just like a flip, right? Like you said, contempt is like, it's all about you, you, you and shame is me, me, me. The same feeling of contempt. That's, that's brilliant. I've never actually looked at it that way.

Terry | Yeah that's one of my few really good ideas. Shame and grandiosity are both fueled by contempt it's just in different directions. And contempt is emotional violence. I used to think that contempt preceded emotional violence. But now I believe that contempt is emotional violence. I talked about in the book coming out from the great lie that Western civilization runs on, the lie that one human being could be superior or inferior, essentially, to another human being. You know, this is the basis of democracy. We're all equal. One race isn't above another, one sex isn't above another. One individual is not above another. This is about living the principles of democracy in our everyday lives and with ourselves.

Robin | Yeah. So Terry, can we talk about anger?

Terry | Sure.

Robin | So there's a quote that I wrote down because I love it. You say an angry woman is a woman who does not heard. Okay. I love that quote. I would like to understand this better. Do you see a place for healthy anger in relationships?

Terry | Sure. Of course.

Robin | Like how do you? How do you help people manage and express their anger in a healthy way?

Terry | Well, there's a guy David Lesterman, he was writing about infidelity. And he makes a distinction I've always made ever since I read it, he talks about the difference between describing an emotion and emoting the emotion, acting it out. My friend, Dick Schwartz, the founder of internal family system, says, You speak for a part, you don't speak from the part. So there's a difference between saying, Robin, I am really pissed off. I am so angry at you. I could spit rocks and saying, [screams] Robin I hate you. And I think every three-year-old knows the difference between those two. You know, sure, feel the anger.

Robin | Yeah. I'm feeling very angry right now. And I'm, you know,

Terry | Yeah, sure. Yeah. There's a part of me, I like that, "There's a part of me." There's a part of me that wants to bop you right in the nose. That's okay. But there's a difference between saying that and acting it out. You know, you're an asshole, you're this, you're that. That's not expressing your anger. That's retaliation and abuse. So sure, talk about your anger, but do it in a way that isn't giving yourself permission. You know, Sigmund Freud once wrote, the first person to hurl a curse, instead of a rock was the creator of civilization. I love that. Talk about your anger. But don't violate your partner because you're angry. That's one of the losing strategies that I talked about in the book. And in the Us Workshop that I'd love people to take with me. I call it unbridled self expression, or the barf bag approach to intimacy. You did this, last week you did that. A year ago, you did that. You always, you never, you are a. Here, I feel so much better. Well, I don't. The therapy is really been a contributor to this. I say to people, hey, look, you can express your feelings, or you can work to make things better in your relationship. But you can't do both at the same time. I'm sorry, what's more important data. And we do not have the God given right to barf all over our partners as a way of getting things off our chest. That is a psychotherapy myth and a nightmare. Talk about your feelings. But you know what? Keep an eye toward repair. Why are you talking about your feelings just to blurt them out, or to try and make things better? You know, talk about your feelings but end with and here's something you could say or do that would help me feel better. End with repair, not just individual expression.

Robin | Wow. I love that. So, let's talk about the three phases to get what you want.

Terry | Oh, yeah.

Robin | Yeah, there's a quote that I wrote down here. I really like this.

Terry | You actually read the book, I like that.

Robin | Oh, it's so good. Terry, your book is so fantastic.

Terry | Thank you.

Robin | Actually, can we just go into it?

Terry | Three phases?

Robin | Yes, please.

Terry | This is particularly useful for women. Because it's women by and large, the boss of exception but by and large it's women who are carrying the resentment, it's women who are carrying the dissatisfaction. across the West. Women are asking for more emotional intimacy from men. Then we raise boys and men to deliver. You know, the essence of traditional masculinity to this day is invulnerability. The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are. And now women are asking men to open their hearts. Don't be defensive, share their feelings. Come on. This this deconstructs masculinity. And one of the things I do say is that leading men, women and non binary folk into true intimacy is synonymous with leading them beyond individualism and patriarchy. The patriarchy wasn't built for intimacy. This is a new demand. So okay. The three phases of getting what you want. First, dare to rock the boat. You bet that this is the assertive phase, not aggressive, but assertive. This is really important to me. You damn well better pay attention. A few things need to change around here. Let me tell you what I need. Once your partner is listening to you, okay, okay, I'll try. Drop the aggression. Everybody gets this wrong. They still complain after the person says they're going to try. Once they start, once they're listening and they say, Okay, I'll try. You're in phase two, which I call helping them win.

Robin

Can I just go back to this Terry? We've had this question before from our community is when you let's say you you do approach your partner with a very assertive, loving way and you're you've tried many times, let's just say you've had 2,3,4 discussions with this person, because you you want to fix you do want to repair, you want to make sure that you guys are on the same page of something.

Terry | Yeah, you want them to stop yelling, or you want them to be better with the kids or be more responsible or you want a better sex life.

Robin | yes but let's say let's say you have these discussions many, many times. And you know what, you're just getting stonewalled their behavior is not changing. You're not seeing any evidence of them changing something that you think is so important for you to be close to your partner. Then what?

Terry | That is an excellent example of when you need help. People say to me, how do you know as a couple when we need help? Well, when the two of you can't do it on your own. So if you're trying and your partner just doesn't give a damn. They, you know, they may say the words but in their actions in changing, then you need help, get help, and get a couples therapist who will back you up and really help you, which is not so easy to find. Come to my website and we'll give you an RLT trained therapist. We take sides, we deal with a dissatisfied disempowered one. I would agree with that person. Yes, your partner is not listening to you. Now listen, pal. Here's why it's in your interest to pay attention and do what she's asking for. We take sides, and most therapists do not. And they throw people in general and women in particular, under the bus because therapists are taught to back off of grandiosity, and we don't back off, we lean into it. It is irresponsible of you to listen to your partner say I need this change 30 times and just blow them off. Let me explain to you what the consequences of that irresponsibility is going to be for you in the long run, and let me tell you why it's in your interest to be more pleasing to your partner. So you need help. And you need help that helps, get your guy or gal to a therapist and get them to a therapist who's really going to back you up. And if you don't have that therapist, dump them and go find another one.

Robin | Yes. Wonderful. Yeah. You know, when you put your hands up and say we need help, that's great.

Terry | Yeah. You need help and you can't do it yourself. So okay, get help.

Robin | Yeah. So then the second, the second way, you're gonna get like you said, first thing you're gonna do is you're going to be assertive and loving, right?

Terry | Yes. And then either on your own or with the help of a therapist, your partner says, okay, okay, I'll try. Alright, good, then don't be aggressive anymore. Drop the sword and shield. Roll up your sleeves and help them, instruct them. Not from a one up grandiose place of I know about relationships let me teach you. No, you're not an expert on relationships. A lot of women get this wrong. That's women's grandiosity, let me teach you how to do this. No, you're not an expert on relationship, men are allergic to that kind of control. But you are an expert on Robin, speak with humility, make a request, not a demand. Let me teach you what would work better for me. I want women in particular, to be more assertive upfront, more proactive upfront, and less resentful on the back end. You know, the way we work relationships in our culture, is you get what you get and then you complain about it. That's the worst behavioral modification I've ever heard of. Let me give you an example of what I mean by helping him win. I wrote a piece in Oh magazine about this. There are three kinds of listeners. Problem solving listener, have you tried this? Empathic listener, Oh gee I'm sorry, tell me more. And sharing listener, Oh, my God, you're adolescent. You should, my kid is driving me crazy. There's nothing wrong with any of those forms of listening. But John Gray made millions of dollars, not that I'm jealous, but made millions of dollars on one damn point. Men move into problem solving. Women want empathic listening. Okay, here's what I would say, Honey, I just had a fight with my girlfriend. I need 10/15 minutes of ventilating. Already, if you tell the guy 10/15 minutes he relieved because he thinks it's gonna go on for hours.

Robin | Yeah, but also you're saying in that sentence what you need as well. I don't need you to fix this. I need you. Your language is very clear.

Terry | That's right. I don't want you to solve the problem. I don't want you to make this a teaching opportunity. Act like a girlfriend, man. Put your arm around me and say that sucks. I'm sorry. Tell me more. Would you do that for 15 minutes? And you know what? Not all the time, but you'd be amazed, the guy will say, Okay, I'll do that. But he would no more be able to do that if you hadn't helped him out, then fly to the moon. Don't just be passive, and wait for your partner to fail. Teach them what you need. And then the third phase is make it worth their while. You know, when Partner A gives Partner B what Partner B has been asking for. Does Partner B swoon in their arms and say "Thank you, honey." We do not.

Robin | No. We don't celebrate the wins. Right? It's all about being critical, rather than rewarding the good behavior, for lack of a better term. [laughs]

Terry | No that's what you want to do. Reward the good behavior. Instead of you did it wrong. You only did it because I told you I mean all this nonsense. I teach women to celebrate the glass 15% full. It was only 5% full last week. Why do we need to make it 20%? We do this with our kids. We do this with our pets, but we don't do it with each other. So phase one. Take some risks rock the boat. This is important. You better listen. Phase two, I'm not gonna let you swing in the wind and fail. Let me help you out. This is what I want from you. Let me be specific. Phase three, you know what honey, it was kind of awkward. It wasn't a homerun. But it was a solid single. You did a great job. I really appreciate it. That's how you get more of what you want in a relationship.

Robin | I just love it, Terry. And at the end of the day, your book, one word says it all, Us. this is about us, right? It's not about you, not about you and me. It's us. And it's such a beautiful, beautiful book. And I just really appreciate the work you're doing, Terry. So tell us about your workshop. When does it start? And how long does it last?

Terry | It starts June 14, go to my website and sign up for it. It's for both individuals and couples. And first, you get a map, you really start to learn how to think relationally instead of the way we're all taught the think. The relational answer to the question, for example, who's right and who's wrong, is who cares? What matters is how are we going to make this work in a way that's going to work for both of us. So first, the map, then there's a whole section on what I call shaking hands with your adaptive child, really understanding where you go, when you're triggered, what the dysfunctional moves are, that you keep repeating over and over again, being right, controlling your partner, unbridled self expression, retaliation, or withdrawl, you really get to know that part of you. And then it's about doing some inner child work, some trauma work, to deal with that wounded or adaptive little part of you, so that they don't grab the wheel. And then finally, it's about learning some beautiful new practical skills that do the job a lot better than what you learned in your family, and what you learned in the culture. That's the, that's the workshop. And I gotta say, not to be grandiose, I really believe is transformative. It will change how you walk around on this planet, and it will transform your relationship.

Robin | Oh, my gosh. I have a final quote to share with our community, Terry of yours. Before we say goodbye.

Terry | Please.

Robin | Remember, intimacy, the thing we all long for. The touch of human connection that heals, that fulfills, is the only thing in our lives capable of rendering us truly happy. Intimacy is not something you have. It's something you do, and you can learn to do it better. And I think you know, Terry, I just I, I always want to thank you. Just being with you, and learning from you is always such a huge pleasure. And you're an incredible teacher and amazing therapist, and you really are transforming the world and making the world a better, more loving place. So kudos to you, my friend.

Terry | Thank you, Robin. I really appreciate it. And I support the work you're doing with this podcast. You're doing your part to transform this world as well. And kudos back to you, my dear.

Robin | Oh, thank you.

Terry | Bye.

Robin | Bye.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey