Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode #16 with Dr. Helen Fisher | Transcript

22.08.11

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today we are talking to Dr. Helen Fisher. She is a well-known biological anthropologist who has dedicated her career to studying the human brain, and how our brains influence not only who we are, but who we love. We talk about love at first sight, and how we each have love maps for picking partners. Helen shares ways to stay deeply connected, and in love long term. We discussed how by determining your own personality style, and the styles of those around us can help us connect on a deeper level. I hope you find our conversation to be as enriching as I did. Welcome to the let's talk love podcast where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love regardless of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Welcome, everyone to today's episode of Let's Talk Love. I am so excited to invite and have this amazing enlightening discussion with Dr. Helen Fisher. For those of you that do not know Helen, she's a prolific author and speaker. She travels around the world teaching everybody about the science of love. She's a biological anthropologist, Senior Research Fellow at Kinsey Institute, and the Chief Science Adviser to the internet dating site match.com, which of course we all know because that's the biggest dating site in the world. She has conducted extensive research and written six books on the evolution and future of human sex, love, marriage, gender differences in the brain, and how your personality style shapes who you are and who you love. And she was just reminding us of how many people have watched her TED Talks. She has, I think three or four different TED talks with over 21 million viewers and people that have tuned in to watch and learn and listen and learn from Helen. So thank you so much for coming on our show today, Helen.

Dr. Helen Fisher | I'm so happy to be with you, Robin.

Robin Ducharme | So something that you say, Helen, and we've quoted you on our Instagram when we were promoting you coming on, is we are all wired to love. And I thought this was fascinating. What you say, romantic love is not an emotion, it is a drive. It is a great deal stronger than the sex drive. Can you explain how we're wired to love and also how romantic love is a drive?

Dr. Helen Fisher | Oh, absolutely. You know, I, when I wrote my first academic article on this, I talked about love. And one of the four peer reviewers for that academic article said, Oh, but you can't study love, it's part of the supernatural. And I thought, hang on here. I mean, you know, fear is not part of the supernatural anger is not part of the supernatural. I mean people pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love. Something's gotta be happening in your brain. So bottom line is already written several books on the evolution of it, and why we formed partnerships. 97% of other mammals do not do that, we do. Anyway and I finally got to the point where I thought, Okay, why don't I try to put people in brain scanners and take a look at the brain circuits if I can find the brain circuitry of romantic love. And so I did, I got various technicians to help. And because I'm not that mathematically inclined, but I have a bigger idea and everything. So I began to find people who were madly in love. And I asked them a whole lot of questions, gave them a lot of questionnaires, etc. interviewed them for quite a while, you know, it's these basic machines are very expensive, using fMRI brain scanning. Anyway, then I proceeded with my colleagues, Lucy Brown and others to put 17 people who were madly and happily in love into a brain scanner, and I was really expecting a whole lot of activity in the cerebral cortex, the outer rind of the brain, you know, I mean, that's where you do your thinking, your decision making, etc. But I didn't. What I found is activity in a little factory near the very base of the brain, in a region linked with Drive. It's a little factory called the ventral tegmental area. area or the VTA. And it actually makes dopamine and sends dopamine to many brain regions giving you feelings of euphoria, focus, motivation, energy and craving, of intense romantic love. And I realized not only is it a drive, but a really powerful drive, because this little factory that makes the dopamine lies right next to the factory that orchestrates thirst and hunger, and thirst and hunger keep you alive today. Romantic love drives you to form a partnership and send your DNA into tomorrow. So, therefore, I realized, wow, it's not only a drive, it's a survival mechanism it's what keeps you keeps your DNA going on to eternity. So we've proven that it's a drive. We also I think that we've evolved actually three distinctly different brain systems for mating and reproduction. One is the sex drive, that you know, you can have sex with somebody when you're not in love with them, that drives you to try out a lot of people. romantic love enables you to focus on just one individual at a time. And a third basic brain system of attachment enables you to stick with that person, at least long enough to have a child and get it to survive through infancy. So it's a basic meeting drive that evolved millions of years ago, there's data on over 200 cultures around the world. Everywhere people love, everywhere.

Robin | Yep, I love it. And of course, you could prove it now scientifically. That's great. Yep. So the other thing I was very fascinated about is what you've learned about love at first sight. So is it possible?

Dr. Fisher | Absolutely. It's possible. You know, attachment takes time, that third brain system attachment takes time, you have to get to know somebody, and you begin to trust them more, and really respect them and laugh at all their jokes, etc. But romantic love. It's a little like the fear system, or the anchor system, you can be angry in a second, I mean, somebody says something that's very hurtful, and boom, you can feel that anger in your brain or I live in New York City, I mean, you're stepping off a curb, and all of a sudden, a taxi whizzes by and almost hits you, and you suddenly feel that intense feeling of fear. And in the same way, you can still feel that intense feeling of romantic love, instantly. But you have to be ready. I mean, the time has to be right. You know, we tend to fall in love with somebody who, you know, fits within what I call your love map, you know, we tend to fall in love with somebody from the same ethnic and socio-economic background, same general level of intelligence and good looks and education, somebody with the same religious values and social goals, and somebody with the same economic and reproductive goals. So, you know, as you grow up, you begin to develop sort of an unconscious and conscious list of what you're looking for in a partner, then when the time is right, you know, you meet somebody in the grocery store, or in a bar, in the airport, or at a museum, etc. And that person fits within what you're looking for, the time is, right. And they come up to you and smile at you and ask you a silly question. And you start to laugh together, and boom, it can trigger that brain circuitry for romantic love. But it doesn't necessarily last forever. I mean, that's the point, you know, you can fall madly in love with somebody very rapidly, but, you know, romantic love, you know, it's a trajectory, and there's breaking points and escalation points. And suddenly, after a week of have been madly in love with this person, you discover that you know, they don't have your political values, you know, you have entirely different lifestyles, there's something about them, that makes them, makes you think they're narcissistic, or suddenly they smile at you and they don't have any teeth. And you want somebody with... You know, the bottom line is, you know, even though this brain circuit can be triggered instantly it doesn't necessarily last.

Robin | But just I know, You've told this story. And it's not just, I mean, we've all experienced it, I think in some aspects of our lives, where, you know, you can walk into a room with hundreds of people. And somehow, let's say, you know, you spot eyes with somebody else that you are attracted to or let's say love at first sight. And so what you're saying is that we each have this love map, where it's like, all part of our history and all these things that like you said, subconsciously or consciously have developed for being attracted to that person.

Dr. Fisher | Absolutely. On the other hand, you know, you might be attracted to somebody else too. I mean, I've never really felt the love at first sight myself, but I've certainly walked into a room with hundreds of people when I'm definitely out looking and seeing some guy who just like the right kind of right age, the right background, wore the right kind of clothes, talking in a kind of manner that like sort of flamboyant, and going up to him. And he started to flirt with me. And sure, I mean, I can't say I fell madly in love with him. But I was certainly instantly attracted. And, you know, we're built to love. I mean, you know, for millions of years, I mean, as Darwin would have said, I mean, if you have four children, and I have no children, you live on and I die out. So reproduction matters. And in fact, we're built to feel the sex drive. And, you know, I mean, you can feel the sex drive and not be in love with somebody, as you mentioned yourself, you know, I mean, you can have sex with somebody, you really don't intend to see again. And you can be madly in love with somebody who you've never had sex with, and probably never will, because they're married to somebody else. And you're not gonna say, you're not gonna make any moves on them, and etc, etc. They're different brain systems, sex drive, feelings of romantic love, and feelings of deep attachment. And I do think that the sex drive can be triggered instantly. I'm positive that feelings of intense romantic love can be triggered instantly. But feelings of deep attachment for somebody, it has to grow. And that's what we found in the brain, when we put people into the brain scanner, who had just fallen madly in love with somebody. I mean, sometime, in within the last three weeks, one person was actually still madly in love with somebody for 17 months, but they'd gone to different colleges, and they saw each other regularly. They were very dedicated to each other. So the bottom line is, that attachment grows, attachment grows, and you got to get to know somebody to begin to feel the real attachment.

Robin | Yeah. So you have said that you're very hopeful about long term relationships nowadays because people are taking, they're dating a lot longer. They're not committing as soon. Can you talk about that, about the future of love, especially because of what you refer to as fast sex and slow love? What do you mean by that?

Dr. Fisher | It's on my website, helenfisher.com. Anyway, it's very meaningful to me. I coined the term, slow love.

Robin | Yes, I really, I like it a lot, because I think that is the reality of what's going on today.

Dr. Fisher | I agree and basically, here are the facts. First of all, you know, 20, 30, 40 years ago, people were married in their very early 20s. women tended to marry at around age 21. Men tended to marry around age 22, or 23. And today, singles are marrying, women are marrying at age 28, or 29. And men are marrying at either 29 or 30. So we're seeing this long period of what I call pre-commitment, what I call slow love, giving singles enough time to understand more about themselves. Trying people out singles are still having one-night stands. There's nothing new about that. But they're getting rid of what they don't want. I mean, I by the way, I'm crazy about millennials. I'm just nuts about them. Because you, I mean, you guys, I don't know if you're a millennial but are you a millennial?

Robin | You know what’s really funny about this? I don't even know what I am. I'm going to be turning 45. I don't know what that was, which I should know this.

Dr. Fisher | What did you say you are?

Robin | I'm turning 45 in September. I'm 44.

Dr. Fisher | Okay, so you are a Gen X.

Robin | Gen X. Okay, thank you. Now I know.

Dr. Fisher | Millennials, Gen Z is 18 to 22. Now, different platforms say it differently. But it's about 18 to 22. Millennials around age 22 to almost 39, which I think is a mistake because a 25 year old's very different from a 35 year old. But anyway, the bottom line is, so I think that this slow love, I've looked through the demographic yearbooks of the United Nations. And they've got data on marriage and divorce from 1947 to 2011. And as it turns out, every single year that I looked in all 80 societies, the later you marry, the more likely you are to remain together. And what we're seeing is marrying later and later and later, and also the courtship, courtship is much longer. And what's really interesting to me is that the pandemic is slowing it down even more. You know, I'm, as you mentioned, chief science advisor for match.com. And every year I do a study with them called singles in America. And we don't poll the match members every year. I and my colleagues create about 200 questions. We get them out to a service. They collect the data. It's a national representative sample of singles based on the US Census it's real and our last study was last July and August, which is still really in the pandemic. And I have data on 11 years. We have data and we asked about we get data on about 5000 people every year. We've done it for 11 years, we're about to start number 12. So I now have data on 55,000 Americans and I was able to collect the data and compare data before the pandemic from 2019 or any other time, and 2021. And as it turns out 1000s of pieces of data, but the bottom line is the most meaningful to me was that before the pandemic, I asked the question, Would you like to meet somebody who wants to marry? And 58% of singles said yes. And then, after it this past summer, I asked the same question. Would you like to meet somebody who wants to marry? And this time, it was 76%? Who said, Yes.

Robin | Wow because they've experienced the pandemic without being with somebody,

Dr. Fisher | Yep, you can't lock up the human-animal for two years and expect them to come out the same.

Robin | No because you realize how, how great it would have been to be with a partner during those hard times, right?

Dr. Fisher | Oh, my God, yes. And there's other things that are gonna make this even, you know, and so, so they, I don't think they're gonna get married any sooner. But I think they're gonna find a committed partnership, as soon as they can. And if it doesn't work, they'll try another. But it's a very serious generation. The young today, I call them the new Victorians, they are a very serious generation. And not only do they want to find somebody who wants to marry, but they also want to find somebody who makes just matches their income, how much they make. And that's men as well as women, somebody who matches the amount of education that they have, and somebody who's got a successful career, not just a job, but a career. It's a very driven generation. And what's interesting is not only this slow love, are we, you know, is it? Is it slowing down the courtship process? But, everybody now, the single most frequent way to meet somebody new is on the internet, not just match, but all over the internet. The last time I asked, it was about 40. When I asked the question on the singles in America study, you know, where did you meet your last first date? 40% said, on the internet, and only 25% said through a friend, and less than 10% said in a bar or whatever, or church or whatever. And I, I then read this article from the University of Chicago that said, if you meet somebody on the internet, as opposed to off the internet, you're less likely to divorce. And I thought, why would that be? Why does it make any difference whether you met somebody or, you know, at a party or anywhere? Why would it make a difference? So I did my own study of 5000 people looking at those who met, and were dating on the internet, as opposed to off the internet. And as it turns out, people who are on the internet meeting people, as opposed to off through a friend, church, wherever. People who met on the internet are more likely to be fully employed, more likely to have higher education, and more likely to be seeking commitment. So not only do we have this low love, and this very serious generation, but they are meeting on the internet, which also indicates that they're less likely to divorce. So I actually think because of slow love and slowing it down because of the pandemic, and the seriousness of the young today, we may well be heading towards a few decades of relative family stability. Cupid beat COVID

Robin | Yes. Oh, I love that. I'm very surprised by those statistics around online dating, because, you know, my thinking would be it's everybody, anybody that's doing it, which I think there's a piece of that, but you're saying like all those differences of people that are online dating, or I'm sorry all the similarities. I didn't realize that was the case.

Dr. Fisher | Yeah, they're out there working the system. And you know, it's basically it's the newest way to do the same old thing. It's absolutely amazing. I know that one person during our Instagram chat wants to know, you know, how do I date? Now I'm divorced. Two years, I want to get back in the market and but I don't know how to do it because everything's changed. Nothing's changed. All that the internet does is enable you to do it meet people. In fact, these are not dating sites. They are introducing sites that's all they do is introduce you. Then you meet in person or through video chatting. I'd love to talk about that. And you smile the way you always did, you laugh the way you always did, you parade the way you always did, you assess the other person the way you always did. All these dating sites do is enable you to meet more people faster, that's all.

Robin | Okay. So for those that are looking for a partner and their online dating, what do you think that people can do to ensure they're dating the most effectively to find the best matches?

Dr. Fisher | Yeah, it's a good question, Robin. Um, you know, there's nothing wrong with these dating sites introducing sites. The problem is we don't know how to use them. And the biggest problem is that singles binge and I understand why you would binge, you're looking for life's greatest prize, you know, I mean, you want the best you can do be with it, maybe have babies with this person. So I understand the pickiness, we've always been picky, by the way, we didn't have all these choices. And with so many choices, we binge and the problem is the brain is not built to binge. There's a, you know, there's a huge brain region. Linked with, you know, how coping with how many choices you've got. And as it turns out, the brain can cope with between five and nine choices.

Robin | Even that's a lot.

Dr. Fisher | And once you start binging and you meet 11 people or 25, people, whatever, you're gonna choose nobody at all, because it you know, it, the brain is overloaded. It's called cognitive overload. And so the first thing I would say to people who want to use the internet, and I would encourage them to, it seems to work. Is after you've met nine people, and I mean met, you need to see them, to smile with them, you know, met them, either on the internet through zoom through a video chatting of some kind, or met them in person, after you've met nine people who are who were even within the category at all of the possibility, stop, get off the internet, and get to know at least one of those people better. Because all of the psychological data show that the longer you get to know somebody, the more you like them, the more you think that they are like you. So don't let the brain you know, don't get tricked into binging. That's number one. After you've met nine people get off the internet and get to know more, at least one get to know better. The other thing is think of reasons to say yes, there's a huge brain region linked with what we call negativity bias. The brain is built to remember the negative. And this comes from millions of years. I mean, you know, if you and I are marching through the grasslands of Africa, East Africa a million years ago, it'd be nice to remember that our girlfriends and who likes us. But if you don't remember who doesn't like you, you could die. So the bottom line is the brain is built to remember the negative. And so when you meet somebody for the first time, you know so little about them that you overweight what you like and what you don't like. And you suddenly say, Oh, he likes cats and I like dogs, it'll never work. Because you have so little data. And that negativity bias is chiming in as No, I don't think so. So the bottom line is, don't binge and think of reasons to say yes, overlook what you don't like it, if it's very minor, you know, it doesn't stand out to you terribly. And think of reasons to stay. Those are the two important things. The other thing is how you do your profile. You know, I would do at least four pictures of yourself, one at work, when doing some leisure activity or hobby, whatever, and maybe doing a sports thing, a picture of just your headshot, a picture of your full body shot, maybe a picture of you all dressed up, and a picture of you, you know, in very relaxed clothes. So pictures are important looks have always been important, they will remain important. And really work on that, on that profile. 68% of singles. This is data at once again, from the singles in America study with Match. 68% of singles read that profile very carefully. So it's not true that they just look at the picture. They definitely look also at the profile. And so be good about that profile. Be smart with the profile, ask your girlfriends or male friends. If you've got a good portrayal of yourself. If you can say something funny, that's great, but a little hard to do. If you're poetic, put a couple lines of poetry in, if you really like certain kinds of music, drop that in, people need clues, they, you know, I mean, you know, courtship is about winning, that's what you got to do is win and you got to put your best foot forward to do it. So it's totally possible. It's working for a lot of people. So I certainly...

Robin | Yes, it is. Yeah, I met my partner online.

Dr. Fisher | Good for you. Oh, wonderful.

Robin | Yeah, I did. I met him on a dating site. And I was fully prepared to do online dating because I but you know, it's at the time, even I think five years ago, I think the statistics showed one in three were meeting online and now you're saying 40, what did you say? What percentage?

Dr. Fisher | 40% of people, you know, last first date met them online.

Robin | Yep. I think it will just go up from there.

Dr. Fisher | Yeah, the other thing is it's, you know, older people too. I mean, you know, I mean, I got married last year at age 75.

Robin | Oh, you did?! That's so nice.

Dr. Fisher | Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm still, I live with him for well, we are LAT, living apart together. This behind me is my apartment. And, and he's got his apartment is in the Bronx, mine is in Manhattan. So we go back and forth. And a couple of nights a week I go see my girlfriends and he likes to stay home, eat pizza and read. So we are LAT, living apart together. We've got two homes, which is great.

Robin | Oh, my goodness, Helen, I think that that is so great. See, this is how relationships change. You're a perfect example like living in two homes and going, Wow, and you're married. Like, that's just a perfect arrangement. For some people.

Dr. Fisher | It was interesting because I was once it was about a year ago now. And I was at this sort of, I don't know, some sort of party and I ran into a young man who's married and, and his wife and he's got a baby who was about 18 months old. And I was telling him about LAT and the fact that we live apart and we go back and forth and all and he said, Oh, if I could only I love my wife, I love the baby. If I could have only one night a week, just in a hotel to eat what I want, to go to bed when I want, to watch the things I want on TV. And the woman standing next to me said, I bet your wife wouldn't like that. And I felt like saying, I bet she'd love it.

Robin | Yes, exactly.

Dr. Fisher | And he could stay home with the baby one night and she could go to the hotel.

Robin | Yeah, and she would do the same thing. Have her one night by herself once a week, it would be good medicine.

Dr. Fisher | Yeah, you know, I mean, I'm an anthropologist, and you know for millions years, we lived in these little hunting and gathering societies. And you didn't spend every night together. I mean, women, men would go hunting for three days, women would go gathering and go see family in another hunting-gathering group, and not come back for two weeks. I mean, it was sort of fission-fusion, they call it they would, you know, go together and come back together. So this 24/7 is, I mean, some people need that, you know, you have to trust your partner, if you're gonna do LAT, you've got to trust your partner. And we do. I mean, you know, I mean, I'm done with other boys, I am so done withother boys. [Robin laughs] But I like going out with my girlfriends a couple nights a week, and then going up there, you know, generally Monday and Tuesday, I go and do my own thing. And then Wednesday, before or after dinner I, I show up, and I have an office up in his place and clothes, and he now says to me, buy two of everything. But you know, you're always carrying a little stuff back, but never the less it's working just fine. But that's the beauty, I think you've touched on something very important. These days, we can really make the kinds of partnerships that we want, that work that really work for us. Now, some people don't really have enough money to hold on to two places. And there's all kinds of issues. But the bottom line is, we can make all kinds of partnerships now. It's not the cookie-cutter thing that it was for really, all through our agrarian farming background.

Robin | So let's talk about the three basic brain drives for staying connected in romantic love. So you talk about three different things that we can do to, and you've done you did brain scans as you said on couples that have been together for over 21 years. And you're able to show three things that actually keep couples together. Can you share those with us?

Dr. Fisher | Absolutely. And you know, first of all, people in love together, not just together, but people in love together. And, you know, Americans, the world doesn't believe that you can remain in love long term. But we kept on having people walk into our lab and talk to me and say, I'm, I'm still in love with her after 21 years of marriage, and you know, or I'm still in love with him, not just loving, but in love with this person. And so I said, Okay, well, let's start putting people in a brain scanner and see if they're lying. [laughs] So I had them take a lot of questionnaires, you always do that these machines are very expensive. And then I put them in the machine, men and women. They all maintained they were still in love with their long term partner. They were all in love an average of 21 years that most of them had adult children and even grandchildren and so I put them in the machine. And sure enough, we did find activity in the same ventral tegmental area this brain region linked with intense romantic love. We also find activity in our brain region linked with deep attachment and a brain region linked with the sex drive. So all three of the basic brain systems were still active 21 years later, but the most interesting part is we picked those who scored very high on a happiness scale that we had had them take. And we looked at their brains. And this is what happens in a happy brain. Now, psychologists will tell you all kinds of things about what makes a happy partnership. All good, no problem with it. This is what the brain says, This is what is happening in the brain when you are in a long term, happy partnership. And Robin, you said there's three things, indeed there are. One thing we found, the first is we found activity in a brain region, like with empathy, these people are empathetic. The second is a brain region linked with controlling your own stress and your own emotions. And the third brain system is a brain system that I call positive illusions, that brain region for negativity bias becomes less active, you're able to overlook what you don't like about somebody and focus on what you do. So I would really say, you know, I'll say one thing about psychology. You know, I think America's hopefully, best known but maybe famous psychologist, in terms of relationships, is John Gottman. And he basically says, you know, this is what makes a bad partnership. I mean, don't show contempt, don't criticize, don't be defensive, and don't Stonewall, that those are going to help you towards divorce. And that's psychology and I'm adding what is going to keep it together, show empathy, controlling your own stress and your own emotions, and positive illusions, overlooking what you don't like about somebody and focusing on what you do. Yeah. So I mean, somebody said to me yesterday, you know, well, what do you do? If you know they are? You know, you've asked them a lot of times to pick up their socks and you stumble on their socks, yet again? Well, I don't know, I'd just pick up the socks and not fight over it.

But you know, I mean, I'm in an extremely happy partnership. But I rarely go over all the cool things about him. It's positive illusions, he calls me he's glad girl. And so yeah, the brain as happiness centers. And I would also in a long term, happy partnership, keep triggering all three of these basic brain systems have sex, I mean, sex is very good for that for the body and the mind, it triggers the dopamine system can sustain feelings of romantic love. With orgasm, there's a real flood of oxytocin linked with feelings of deep attachment. And I mean, it's very good for the immune system, it's good for the memory, it's good as an antidepressant, it's good for the muscles, the bladder, the bladder, the genitals, etc. I mean sex is good for you. So I'd do that regularly. I'd also do novel things together, novelty drives up the dopamine system and can sustain feelings of intense romantic love. And I would also, if I want to keep that attachment going, stay in touch, any kind of nice touch drives up the oxytocin system, and can give you feelings of deep attachment. So I learned to sleep in his arms. Now you don't stay there all night. But if you start out that way, you can really go to bed fast, you can really go to sleep fast because it drives up the oxytocin. I'd get rid of the two big arm chairs to watch TV and, and sit on the couch together, walk arm and arm, kiss and hug, dance together. Any kind of physical touch that is pleasant will drive up the oxytocin system. So just, you know, just to, to recap that rapidly. You know, be empathetic control your own stress and emotions, overlook the negative hop into bed regularly and have some good sex and solve sex problems. Do novel things together to trigger romantic love, and stay in touch to keep that attachment system cooking for you.

Robin | I think all of that is such a beautiful piece of advice and it's all been proven so if that's how we stay happy and stay connected with our partners then yes, please.

And you know what, people in good and happy partnerships live five to seven years longer.

Yeah. We know how healthy it is for us to stay in love and stay connected.

Dr. Fisher | Yeah and you know, get hugs. Laugh, when you laugh with a partner it drives up the dopamine system. It boosts the immune system. It boosts the endorphins and elevates the pain threshold by about 10%. And when you play with somebody, it triggers brain growth. I mean, so no wonder everybody's looking for a good relationship. I mean, for millions of years, it's obviously good for you because it gives us gives you so many pluses.

Robin | Yeah. So let's talk about personality types because obviously, you're an expert in this area. So you've said, I've come to believe that each of us expresses a unique mix of four broad, basic personality types. Moreover, our primary personality type steers us towards specific romantic partners. Our biological nature whispers constantly within us to influence who we love.

Dr. Fisher | Oh, I like that line. I'll say that one again. [laughs]

Robin | It's so good. So this was, I learned a lot. I always learn from you, Helen, but this was a big one that I learned.

Dr. Fisher | This is big, it was big for me too, Robin. Because it really opened my mind. And I have to tell you, you know, it's really helped even in my partnership, but but the bottom, okay, so here it is. It started out. I came to this, when match.com invited me to work with them in 2005. And 17 years ago, and two days before Christmas, they called, and wanted to meet two days after Christmas. Nothing happens in New York at Christmas, but I was perfectly happy to do it. And I got down to Canal Street, if anybody knows New York and a big glass building, was in this room, and all of a sudden, about 11 people piled in, I had no idea who they were even. And I don't I think was the CEO. And the morning, in the middle of the morning, I said, Why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? And I said, Well, I don't know. I mean, there's all kinds of, as I mentioned to you before, we do tend to fall in love with somebody from the same ethnic and socio-economic background, same level of intelligence, good looks, education, same religious and social values, economic goals, reproductive interest, etc, etc. But you can walk into a room, and everybody is from your background and level of education and good looks, etc. And you don't fall in love with all of them. So I began to think at that moment, could basic body chemistry be involved? Are we naturally drawn to some people rather than others? I mean, people will say, Well, we have chemistry, or we don't have chemistry. What do they mean by that? So the bottom line is, I began to look through the academic literature for any biologically based trait, any trait in the brain that was linked with a biological system. Now, most of the traits, most of the systems in the brain either keep the heart beating, or the eyes blinking, they have nothing to do with personality traits. But by digging through this academic, 50 years of it, hundreds of articles, I was able to find that these four systems, dopamine, serotonin, testosterone and estrogen system is each one of them linked with a constellation of personality traits. And so I decided to list those traits on four separate sheets of paper. And then I looked at those four sheets of paper and said, you know, what, why don't I create a questionnaire to see to what degree you express the traits in all four of these basic brain systems, which I did. And I kept on changing the questions, I put it on match, and on chemistry.com, a subsidiary of Match. And every three weeks or so about 30, people took it. And I could see where questions weren't quite right. And I changed them again. And in a couple years, I had a questionnaire that measured these four basic personality styles. And that questionnaire has now been taken by over 15 million people in 40 countries, you can get it in any of my books, you can get it on the internet, takes about 10 minutes to do. And then I decided, well, I need to know who's next. So then I had to prove that it actually measured brain circuitry. So what I did is did two brain scanning studies in which, before they went into the machine to do something entirely different. I said, would you take this questionnaire for me, and they would take a questionnaire. And then I was able to see that if you scored very high on the traits in the dopamine system, for example, you also showed more activity in the a whole brain pathway of dopamine. So it's the only question here now in the world that was made from this brain physiology to make a questionnaire and then went on to do two brain scanning studies to prove that that questionnaire actually measures what it says it measures, every other one, the Myers Briggs, the Big Five, all of them. They they're made from largely from linguistic studies to make a questionnaire and you can't go back to the linguistic studies to prove that you're measuring what you say you're measuring, whereas mine does. And that's why I'm actually now going to use it in the business world too. But anyway, the issue is why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? So I then watched in 28,000 Americans who was drawn to whom, in other words, I could see that if you are high on the traits of the dopamine system, you are more likely, much more likely to choose to meet up with somebody also from the dopamine system. So in that case similarity attracts. And these are the traits. I call these people explorers. And they are novelty seeking, risk taking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic and mentally flexible people. They're drawn to people like themselves. They're very expressive of the traits in the dopamine system. People who are very expressive of the traits in the serotonin system. I call the builders, Mike Pence is a very good example. I knew he was going to ratify the election because he follows the rules that boy, that guy, and so people were very, Mitt Romney is another example. These people are traditional, conventional social norm conforming, follow the rules, respect authority, detail oriented rather than theoretical. They like loyalty. Extremely, loyalty is extremely important to them. And they tend to be religious, but not all of them. And they are also drawn to people like themselves, serotonin goes for serotonin. Dopamine goes for dopamine. In those two cases, similarity naturally attracts. In the other two cases, opposites attract high testosterone goes for high estrogen, and high estrogen goes for high testosterone. So the traits in that testosterone system, I call these people directors, not a great term, but I'm stuck with it now. 15 million people have taken this thing, I can't change it anymore. But anyway, they're analytical, logical, direct, decisive, tough minded, good at what I call, we call rule based systems, math, engineering, computers, music is very structural, and they tend to be skeptical. Steve, Steve Jobs is a perfect example. Mr. Trump's over the top on testosterone. And they go for their opposite, high estrogen and the reverse. And higher estrogen people I call negotiators. They see the big picture, they see long term. They're very imaginative. They're intuitive, they can climb into your head and see what you're thinking. They're very good at reading posture, gesture, tone of voice, and they tend to be very empathetic. And they also are drawn to their opposite. So what's really important here, though, is that we're not just one of these things. We express some of the traits in some of these systems more than others, but we express some traits in all of them. Now, for example, I and my husband are both very high on the dopamine system. I mean, he's a writer the way I am. He's a well-known journalist, he travels constantly. And to be a writer, you got to be creative with every paragraph, I'm sure you know that. And. And he's very high in testosterone. So that works. We're both like, just as high dopamine. He is very high on that testosterone system, and I'm very high on the estrogen system. That also works naturally. But he's a little bit higher on the serotonin system he is more inclined to follow the rules, just because it's a rule. And, for example, an example you may have heard me say this before. We were going to the movies one night, and I said, Oh, sweetheart, do you have any water in your backpack? He said, Yeah. I said, Oh great. We can drink it in the movie house. Then he said, No, we can't.

Robin | You're not allowed to bring your own food and drinks into the movie theater, Helen.

Dr. Fisher | Oh, oh, really? Oh, okay. But what's important about that is you were so marinated in psychology that everybody's takes everything very personally as if, as if, you know, it's your childhood that is making you that structural and all and, you know, and or it's about me or whatever, it's about the fact that he's higher in the serotonin system, it's who he is and all you need to do is a workaround. I remember I was making a speech to some couples therapists, I make a lot of speeches to a couple of therapists and others, and it was a woman she'd heard about my, my, you know, I was presented the material and this was the question answer period. And she said, you know, Helen, she said, You know, I'm very high on the dopamine scale. And I'm risk-taking obviously you knowedge seeking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, etc. My husband is much higher on the serotonin scale traditional, conventional, and follows the rules. And last Thanksgiving, I said to him, why don't we try something new and put some sausage in the turkey stuffing? Oh, no.

Robin | There's no way he's he's way more traditional than that. [laughs]

Dr. Fisher | And so she said, it led to a royal battle. So I guess they didn't put sausage in their turkey stuffing. What she said is she, they looked at each other, they found that apparently, it was a complete impasse, nobody is going to change their ways. So she turned him and said, Let's go hiking. So the bottom line is they did a workaround. They said, We're not, nobody's gonna win this battle. And so let's go do something that we both enjoy. And they did. So that's the value of this, you know, it, it not only helps you understand who you are. But if you can get other people to take the test, or it and this is in my next book, figuring out who somebody is without them taking the test, then you can reach into their brain and talk to them the way they can hear you. I no longer believe in the Golden Rule, do unto others as you would have done unto yourself, I believe in the platinum rule, figure out who somebody is, and speak to them the way they can hear you. And you can win. And a good example in my life, and I'll stop this monologue here is I was with a woman talking about my work, and she really didn't like it. And so I became more flamboyant, trying to I was excited about it. And when I read what she wrote in the newspaper The following morning, I was right, she didn't like it. And I gotta into a cab, I was going back to the airport, this happened to be in Seattle, and I thought to myself, Helen, you knew this woman was a builder, high serotonin. You figured that she liked the details? Why didn't you just forget the big theories and give her every single detail about the eigenanalysis and the factor analysis and the ventral tegmental area? That way she could hear you. So that's the power of this, I think, not only figuring out who you are, which is nice. But in business and in love, it's very valuable to know who somebody else is, and then reach them the way they need to be reached.

Robin | I don't know if you've named your next book, Helen. But the platinum rule, I have never heard that before. But that is good.

Dr. Fisher | That is the name of the book.

Robin | Oh great!

But like you said, I learned so much about this concept from you. And when I read that 60% of our traits, in our temperaments personality comes from genetic, like from our parents, and all the way down the line. I thought 60% of who I am is like just the way I was born like my personality wasn't just, it's not all nurture, 60% of its nature. And that is a huge insight.

Dr. Fisher | There is a lot of data on that. A good 40 to 60% of who you are, does come out of your biology. Now, for example, we all know some people were better at math. We all know some people who were just better with people. We know some people are lazy, some people are conscientious. Some people are detail-oriented, some people are funny, some people are, you know, very creative, you know, and this does come out of your biology. The issue is and then, you know, when I make a speech, people immediately as well, can you change? Sure, we can change, but it's tiring. You know, when you learn in early childhood, you know, smile for grandmother, when you're really pissed, and you learn to smile for grandmother, and you learn to put on your shoes when you don't feel like it and you learn to go to school and learn subjects that you might not, etc, we learn to adjust, but it's tiring. And if you're going to, you know, marry somebody, or in a work circumstance is really valuable to get into a position where, to get into a job where you can be who you are, who you really are. And as matter of fact, it was very interesting, because I was doing a work shop with Deloitte was about 100 of them, almost all men. And at one point I said, you know, where are you most who you really are at work? Or outside of work? And almost all of them said at work. And one man said, he said I love my wife, I love my children, but at home I have to compromise here I can do exactly what I want. And then I was in Singapore, and I was talking to a pile of women who were very big C suite executives in a company called Akzo Nobel which is a paint and finishing company, I mean they paint battleships, not bookshelves, you know there's big, and it's almost all engineers. And these women said I really have to be, I'm more myself at home when you know, at work they're all tough minded, skeptical, analytical, logical, very direct, often assertive, etc, aggressive, and I have to do that too. And I can do it but it's tiring. So the bottom line is it's best to find out who you are number one, and and then, you know, find, find situations where you can be who you really are and have everybody like you for it.

Robin | Yeah. Love that. Okay, so let's do some myth-busting. Because there are some very common myths out there that you bust, oh I love this. So the first one is men are not as romantic as women.

Dr. Fisher | Men are, men fall in love faster than women do. I don't know how you phrased it. So I don't know why, whether it's a true or false men are not as romantic? False. Men are just as romantic if not more romantic. And I got a huge amount of data on this, not only do I have the data, but a lot of other people have that data too. So this is not just me, but I really quantified it. Men fall in love faster than women do. Men fall in love more often than women do. When a man meets a woman that he is in love with, he wants to introduce her to friends and family sooner. Men want to move in sooner. Men have more intimate conversations with their partners than women do because women have their really intimate conversations with their girlfriends. And men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. I'm so glad you asked that Robin, because the bottom line, I have been trying to talk women's magazines into this for 40 years. And they're dedicated to thinking that women are more romantic than men are. And it's just not true. And when we put men into the brain scanner, we see exactly the same degree of activity in these brain regions linked with romantic love as women so men are just as romantic. And I would call them somewhat more fragile. Because they're more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over.

Robin | The next myth, men are more adulterous than women.

Dr. Fisher | Oh, wow. Okay. There are a lot of people who believe that, and they have some good Darwinian explanations, but I don't think they thought it through. So first of all, who are all these men sleeping with? I mean, just basic math. [Robin laughs] I mean, there's, there's a problem here. I don't know, either there's a few women sleeping with an awful lot of men, or men are bragging, and women are lying even to themselves. Yeah, out of England, we've really indicated that men are bragging and women are lying. I mean, it really depends what you call sex. You know, I mean, you know, but so here's the deal. People, academics have long believed that men are more adulterous because they can have more children and and they can have children all the time. You know, if a woman has a baby, she can't have another baby two weeks later. So basically, the thought was that men are more adulterous, because from a Darwinian perspective, they can, they're driven to have more babies with different women, which would send more of their DNA into tomorrow. And women wouldn't have been as adulterous because they can't have as many children and, etc. But then I began to think of it as an anthropologist. And as it turns out, I can see why men would would be adulterous. I mean, you know, if you let's go back a million years, if you've got two children and a wife and a socially sanctioned partnership, and you went hunting over the hill and ran into another woman and had two children with her, you double the amount of DNA you sent into tomorrow. So from a Darwinian perspective, you will have won and you will have passed on to your children, whatever it is in the brain, associated with adultery. But why would a woman be adulterous? Okay, she goes over the hill, and sleeps with somebody on the side and might not, might have another child with him. But what she will really get is an insurance policy. If her husband is eaten by a lion, she may have somebody to step in and help her or when she travels to different little hunting and gathering bands. One one man will give her meat and other will give her beer, another one will give her cloth another, etc, etc. So by sleeping around, she gets a lot of extra resources. And with those resources, she passes them on to their children like food and protection. Those children live to adulthood and pass on her propensity towards adultery. So I don't agree with the current Zeitgeist. I don't think that men are necessarily more adulterous. And the data the last time I collected data on this for men and women under the age of 40, women were just as adulterous as men. And I do think that this belief that men are more adulterous comes out of our farming past. In hunting and gathering societies is a study of I think 93 cultures in something like 78 of them. Men and women, both think that women are just as sexual and just as adulterous, but we settled down on the farm and stuck on a piece of property. Nobody can leave, you can't cut the cow in half and leave town. You're stuck there till death. And then with that, you see the rise of this double income, of this, this double, a belief that a lot of beliefs, we believe that a woman is a virgin at marriage should be a belief that the man is the head of the household hunter-gathers don't necessarily believe that. I believe till death do us part, hunter-gatherers definitely don't believe that. And the rise of a man's ability to sleep around as he's got the property. And the woman is the vessel of his seed. So she really can't sleep around. So what's really interesting today is how these beliefs are going by. That's why I love the fact that you ask that day is going to come when Americans believe that women are just as adulterous as men. And in fact, they'll be right.

Robin | Yeah, relationships are, are changing. So last myth, this one I thought was true. Men are looking to date or marry someone much younger and more attractive than they are.

Dr. Fisher | Ah, well, I’ve got a couple of others that I'd like to share with you. Young men, the average age of female fertility around the world is age 25. And so you'll see very young men 18, 19, 20, 21, wanting to go out with a somewhat older woman. Now they're just gonna say it because she's a cool girl. But bottom line is, there may be a Darwinian impulse to have sex with a woman who could bare your baby, even though you don't want to have babies and have no intention of it. And as you get older, young people, generally, men go for a woman who is about two to three years younger than themselves. But as men get a lot older, they tend to go out want to go out with a woman that's about eight years younger than themselves, they don't necessarily want a 25 year old when they're 55. The reason being is they probably already had a family don't want to have another family, don't want the lifestyle of a 25 year old, etc, etc. So, yes, men still generally, what men really want is a woman who is healthy, and happy, and productive, and successful, etc. And age is less and less important. It's so interesting because here you have Trump going out with a woman who's a whole lot younger. And here you have Macron, in Italy, in Paris, France, who married a woman who is I don't know, much older. And I think we're going to see more and more of that. Because women are really piling into the job market. Women are more interesting than they've been for 1000s of years. They're educated, they're competent, they got good jobs, they're generally in good health, and they can leave bad partnerships instead of staying in things that they don't want. Same with men. And I do think that we are moving towards the ability to choose from a wider range, both men and women. But I do think that on average, people are generally attracted to people in their general age group, it's more practical.

Robin | Wow.

Dr. Fisher | Can I tell you a myth about older people?

Robin | Yes, please.

Dr. Fisher | I love it. Because I'm older. Well, so interesting. You know, we often think that older people are desperate. And so I asked two questions. My favorite two questions. And my population is people ages 18 to 71 plus for every single year, so I got 1000s of them. And I asked the question, would you make a long term commitment to somebody who had everything you were looking for, but you were not in love with them? Same question, would you make long term commitment to somebody who had everything you were looking for? But you were not sexually attracted to them. And the second is romantically attracted to them. The least likely to compromise were people over 60. The most likely to compromise were young men. Now, why would the young men make long term commitment to somebody who was not sexually attracted to and was not romantically attracted to, but probably at a deep attachment connected to all kinds of connection to the family, a great sense of humor, etc. But not drawn to them sexually or romantically. And I think from what, and we saw this, it's older people who are the picky ones, the younger are not as picky And I think it's because the young have to reproduce. And I have a beautiful little cousin, a man. And he married a woman as he said, what she's not the best I've ever had in bed. Um, you know, I'm sort of in love with her but, but she's a great mother to my children. She's a great companion, she really helps me in my job. And I just really like her. So what has he done? He has made a compromise. Whereas somebody like me, because he's got to reproduce. Somebody like me. I mean, before I got married, there was a man and, and oh, I don't know faraway Arizona. And he was a really cool guy. And he liked poetry, and he liked dancing, and he liked the theater. And he was a PhD in a related topic, and he was smart and funny. I had no sexual attraction to him at all. And I was no romantic feelings for him. Would I leave New York City, where I know people, where I love the town, etc., and go to someplace at my age, in my 70s. And, you know, start a new love with life with somebody I was not in love with and did not find sexually attractive? So the older you get, the less likely you are to compromise. And we always think of older people as desperate. Far from the truth. Far from it. Other things about older people. They're more comfortable with their body than younger people. Isn't that interesting? I think that's absolutely. I mean, and they aren't cougars. They actually do not want young partners.

Robin | [laughs] Yeah. Oh, my gosh, well, Helen, I have just so enjoyed our time together and appreciate like every, all the science, all the work, that research that you're doing, and how that all translates into the really big picture, the way we do relate to each other. Our brains really do dictate so much about how we are in a relationship.

Dr. Fisher | They predispose us, they predispose us to think in certain ways. Yes, definitely.

Robin | Well, I know everybody can go to your website, helenfisher.com, and follow you, what else? Where else would you point people when they're wanting to learn more from you?

Dr. Fisher | My other site is www.theanatomyoflove.com.

Robin | Okay, yep.

Dr. Fisher | My brain-scanning partner, Lucy Brown and I did that one together. And you'd learn a lot more about the brain from Lucy and I can take my questionnaire there theanatomyoflove.com.

Robin | Okay. Take the personality test and we can all talk about it.

Dr. Fisher | Absolutely!

Robin | Thank you again, Helen. And we'll see you on Instagram.

Dr. Fisher | Thank you. Thank you very much, Robin. I appreciate it.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey