Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode #8 with Dr. Alexandra Solomon | Transcript

22.05.12

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | In today's episode of Let's Talk love, I speak with Dr. Alexandra Solomon about her work on relational self awareness, the course Marriage 101 she teaches at Northwestern University, and about key skills we can all use for navigating conflict. Dr. Solomon also answers your relationship questions. Be sure to submit any questions you have regarding sex, love and relationships and I will do my very best to ask our experts for you. Dr. Solomon is one of my favorite relationship teachers. Enjoy. Welcome to the Let's Talk Love Podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love regardless of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through are no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love Podcast. Today. I'm very excited to welcome our guest, Dr. Alexandra Solomon to the podcast. Hello, Dr. Solomon.

Dr. Alexandra Solomon | Hi, Robin. How are you?

Robin Ducharme | So incredibly happy to share this hour with you.

Dr. Alexandra Solomon | Oh likewise! I love the chances that I have to get to connect with you.

Robin Ducharme | I feel the same way. I'm going to introduce you. Over the last two decades, Dr. Alexandra Solomon has become one of today's most trusted voices in the world of relationships. And her work on relational self-awareness, which we're going to learn more about today, has reached millions of people around the world. Dr. Solomon is a licensed clinical psychologist at the Family Institute of Northwestern University. She is also on the faculty in the School of Education and Social Policy at Northwestern University, where she teaches the internationally renowned course Building Loving and Lasting Relationships: Marriage 101. I can't wait to learn more about that. In addition to writing articles and chapters for leading academic journals and books, in the field of marriage and family, she's the author of two best-selling books, Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. So I am just so incredibly happy to have you. And we've worked together about four or five times now in the past few years. Every time that I'm with you, I learn so much. You're just such a great teacher, and therapist. So relatable. So that's what I know people are gonna get so much out of this episode. So thank you so much for your time and your wisdom.

Dr. Solomon | Thank you. Thank you for that warm introduction. I appreciate that feedback. And I'm glad to be here.

Robin | Well, can we start Dr. Solomon by you just giving us an introduction to your work and how you started out as a therapist and became a professor and teaching this course at Northwestern and writing your books. I would just love to hear a little bit about your journey where you started and where you are now.

Dr. Solomon | Yeah, I mean, I really have from the beginning of my career when I started off in graduate school, the model that I was trained under is this model called the Scientist-Practitioner Model. So from the first day of my doctoral program, I was taught to have one foot in the world of academia, and one foot in the world of, you know, application. And so I think I really took that message to heart and I have just stayed passionate in my career about switching hats. So I love the flow between spending some of my weeks in academia, teaching, and training, whether it's, you know, graduate students in marriage and family therapy, which I did for a decade, whether it's the Marriage 101 course, or whether it's teaching and training clinicians who are out in the world, that all is one part of what I do, but then I also spend part of my week just in the trenches sitting with individuals and couples understanding themselves and their relationships. And then I spend part of my week figuring out, okay, so how do we take all of that and translate it into really usable, applicable skills for people out in the real world and so conversations like the one that we're going to have and you know, social media is such a rich venue for kind of all of that translational work. And so that has been that ability to move between those spaces, all of which I treasure. I think it keeps me energized. It keeps me curious. And I think provides me with a ton of meaning around helping people love and be loved and understand who they are in these relationships.

Robin | So your work is based, so much of your work is based on relational self-awareness. Can you describe what that means?

Dr. Solomon | So at a certain point in my career, I realized that no matter which realm I'm in, you know, whether I'm teaching or writing or in therapy, or frankly, talking to my husband of 23 years, the through line was that I'm always doing that dance of inviting self-reflection, that leads to different kinds of conversations between people, that idea that my relationship with myself becomes the foundation for my relationship with everybody else. So if I want the belief here, the relational self-awareness belief is if I want to have high-quality relationships with others, I have to figure out how to cultivate that high quality, gentle, curious relationship with myself, first and foremost. That arrow goes back and forth, my relationship with me, shares my relationship with you, and then how I engage with you teaches me more about myself. So that became clear to me a number of years ago. And so I have spent all this time now kind of refining, and operationalizing, what relational self-awareness is, which is basically a set of tools and frameworks that we can use, to enhance our relationships. And it's because especially in our romantic relationships, we want something that is of a completely different order than our grandparents wanted and needed, right, the framework around relationships today is so different. We talked about, I talked about this in terms of role-bound relationships. So historically, and still, in many parts of the world today intimate partnership is a highly role-bound arrangement, what it means to be a good husband is that you provide. What it means to be a good wife is that you hold down, you are a domestic goddess, right? And those, the clearer the roles, the less the wiggle room, right. And it's not that hard to meet those expectations. And I use the word husband and wife because historically, those have been these highly gendered roles. But that's not the world that most of us want to create. Now, we want a soul to soul relationships, not role-to-role relationships. We want to feel deeply seen. And we want to feel that our authentic self is what's coming forward in our relationships. So fine, let's have high expectations. But if we're going to have high expectations, we have to be willing to put in the work to be able to get there. It's not just about sitting on our phone long enough and swiping until we meet that right person. It's really rolling up our sleeves and working to become that right person.

Robin | Yes. Wow. [laughs] Yep. We're no longer in the role to role it's soul to soul. That's so and like you said, we're demanding so much more out of our intimate partnerships, right? We're asking, we want so much out of this one person in our lives, which is also all those expectations. It's a pretty big heavy burden to put on each other.

Dr. Solomon | That's right. Well, and listen, by the way, even if someone's like, wait a minute, no, I'm completely happy with a roll to roll relationship, like just give me... We can't anymore, frankly, right. Because the way in which the way that the economy is the way in which the world has transformed, it is very, very different. Like the way, I just shared these numbers with my students this week, in one-half of heterosexual marriages, she outearns him, one-half. In 1960. It was like 3%. That is dramatic. That is a dramatic shift that has happened in the blink of an eye. I mean, I know for young people 50 or 60 years feels like a lifetime. But you know sociologically, it's a very short amount of time that we have massively reconstructed the nature of how, you know, breadwinning and caregiving work. And that's in part because of feminism and sort of getting women you know, into the public sphere. But it also is because those old structures just don't hold up anymore, right, like high-paying blue-collar manufacturing jobs, or just the world has changed, right? The economy has changed. So in lots of marriages, we really do need to flow seamlessly between striving, achieving breadwinning caregiving, tending, nurturing, like those roles, we have to have flexibility in those roles. Otherwise, we're kind of fighting against reality. So I don't even know that a highly role-bound gender traditional marriage is even possible for the vast majority of us, even if we're like, no, I'd be fine with that. I don't. It doesn't really work that way so much anymore.

Robin Ducharme | Yeah. So tell us about your Marriage 101 course. You teach at Northwestern and your course is called Building Loving, Lasting Relationships: Marriage 101. My gosh, like I've said before, I wish that in university I took your course. I mean, really! And it must, you said it's packed, right?

Dr. Solomon | Oh, it's so fun. And you know, Robin, we are in week two, we just finished up week two. So I'm like, I'm in the throes of it right now. This is the 22nd year we've taught it, like the first time we taught it I was a graduate student. So it's been part of my life for my entire career, and I just could cry. It's so special to me. And it's so energizing. And, and yeah, and it doesn't mean, I think because that comment that you just made of wishing you'd had it. I've heard that comment, hundreds, if not 1000s of times, which is why I do things like write books, run a podcast, and post on Instagram, because this is content that we all need and deserve. And so yes, these 108 college students get it packaged in a very unique way that we only do once a year. And I, you know, many, many students, you know, hundreds of students who want to get in the class can't unfortunately, but for those who do get to go on this journey, it's pretty darn special. And it's not the only way, you know, to learn this content from me. But yeah, we have a great time we are, you know, we toggle between didactic learning, so I'm sharing research, I'm sharing clinical wisdom, and then we're turning the lens on them. And they're sitting in small breakout groups, with graduate students who are about to finish up their marriage and family degree program. So they're clinically trained, and they sit in small groups of them, and they just unpack all of this and look at all of their, they look at their family system, their friendship dynamics. So I had office hours yesterday, I had three hours of office hours yesterday, and I had students kind of streaming in and out and I had these wonderful conversations about, I want closure and I don't have it. You know, my parents are going into divorce and I'm struggling. You know, I like this guy, but I don't know whether oor not to tell him. We're about to graduate. I don't know if we can do long distance. Like it's just you know, it's just, it's just a big old playground for me.

Robin Ducharme | I just think that's amazing that 100 and some students they're going through this course learn how to build relationships, and also get therapy at the same time. [both laugh] That's totally perfect.

Dr. Alexandra Solomon | One of the students who came to office hours, she was like, so my friend took this class last year, and she said, the class is great, but really, you should take it just for the office hours, just go to office hours.

Robin Ducharme | Exactly! [laughs] Yeah. So one of your quotes is that none of us fall in love so that we can experience conflict but conflict is absolutely inevitable. And really, this is just such a true thing. But I just think that's one thing that we are just not taught. Like you're thinking there's something really broken if you're having conflict with your partner on a regular basis.

Dr. Alexandra Solomon | Right? That's right. That's right.

Robin Ducharme | That's absolutely, it's absolutely normal. So, but really, you talk about how it's really about we how we manage conflict. It's not about that we have conflict.

Dr. Alexandra Solomon | Yes. It's the how. And that's, you know, that is straight from the Gottman's research, right? That is conflict will happen. How could it not? We don't marry ourselves, we don't partner with ourselves, there's going to be space between my needs and your needs. There's going to be space between my needs and what you're able to provide at any given moment, frankly. There's going to be different perspectives, different opinions, there's going to be disappointment and misunderstanding, all of those things are going to happen as you said, not because we're broken, not because we chose wrong, not because you must not be my soulmate. But because life is hard and we are all just so profoundly human, you know?

Robin | Yes.

Dr. Solomon | But we don't. Right, I mean, some of us I think grow up in homes where we watch our parents, you know, stand up for themselves without putting the other down or handle conflict in a mature way. Some of us do and that's a massive blessing. And the wind is certainly at the backs of people who got to witness that firsthand when they were growing up. But most, you know, the vast majority of us saw, whatever, I see silence or, you know, loud voices that were frankly, frightening for us when we were little right. So we certainly learned about conflict when we were little, but we very likely did not learn how to handle it well. And so that just means again, not that we're broken, but it just means we've got to take responsibility for that and, and tool ourselves, resource ourselves and spend some time learning how to do conflict because as you said, it's gonna happen.

Robin | Yes. So the last two episodes that I listened to of yours, we're from your podcast, which is fantastic called Reimagining Love. You have 10 skills for navigating conflict and it's in two parts. And one of the stories you told at the beginning, I believe, either this or in Loving Bravely because I've been reading your books, I listen to your podcasts, everything. One of the stories you tell, which I think is so relatable and like, Woah, I'm like that could happen to any of us, right? You have a couple that comes into your office, this is so common, and you said, okay, you've got these two people sitting in front of you and it's like, they've got bubbles above their heads, right? And the one bubble, the one person saying, all right, please explain the conflict. Right? And everything is about the other person, this is dadada... [laughs] And then... Can you just tell that from your perspective? Because it's so funny, and it's so true.

Dr. Solomon | Yeah, it's so true. It's so true, yes. That was for sure from the podcast. Yeah, the last two episodes are like thick, like a thick steak. You just gotta like, sit down. Like, take some notes. I mean, we really went through it right. 10 skills. And so yeah, early on in the first episode, I'm basically framing out this idea that our default setting is to see the problem as lying within the other person. So sometimes, for some of us, our default setting is we believe the problem to lie within ourselves that's when shame or blame creeps in. That's when we aren't practicing relational self-awareness, because relational self-awareness is all about my stuff, plus your stuff equals our stuff, what I call the golden equation of love. And every single conflict from the first moment, all the way through a relationship, every single conflict can be mapped onto that equation, my stuff, plus your stuff, equals our stuff. But our default setting, usually, until we learn this, is to move into either blame, this relationship would be so much easier if you would be different, or shame this relationship is struggling because I'm too broken, too damaged, too deficient. So right, so the story is the story of every couple who comes in for their first therapy session, which is above Partner A's head is the thinking bubble that says "Thank goodness, we're here because now this therapist and I are going to help partner B, understand that they're like, fine in a lot of ways but they just..." But the problem is that above partner B's head is the same damn thinking bubble that's like, "Okay, finally, this therapist will explain to Partner A that if they would just stop doing whatever, this would be easier." And the thinking bubble is above each of their heads. And so then the work of therapy is that the therapist's job is basically to help them take on a systemic view of the story, of the conflict, of their conflict patterns, of their dances to help them understand the choreography of the conflict. The more I do this, the more you do this. And the more you do this, the more I do this, and that is what the research in the field of couples therapy has found, in fact, that every brand of couples therapy has some tools and frameworks by which they teach couples to do exactly that. Every single brand, whether you're talking about Sue Johnson's Emotion Focused Therapy or John Gottman's approach to therapy or the Insight oriented therapists, they all have ways of moving couples away from that very myopic it's either your fault or my fault, into that relational frame of we're going back and forth, we're playing off each other, we end up triggering in each other our most dreaded scenario possible. And so that's the heart of therapeutic work. And it's what I spend, most of my time trying to, you know, support folks doing, whether they're in my therapy office or on my Instagram feed is taking that Relational Approach. And I always end that example by saying that when I went a few years ago to see Michelle Obama and Oprah talking about Michelle Obama's book at the United Center, Michelle Obama told the story of going to couples therapy with Barack and having that very same thing thinking like, Ah, finally, this therapist will help Barak understand that he's just a little bit. And then she was humbled. And she was like, Oh, shit, okay, I guess I have to look at my participation, my role, my responsibilities. And so if Michelle struggles with it, you know that we all struggle with it. [both laugh]

Robin | So something you've said is that one of the foundations of family therapy is when you change one part of the system, you change the system. So I'm sure this happens a lot. I mean, I'm in therapy by myself and we also do couples therapy. So you, you must have people that come in individually and they are with a partner. Can you just please explain that principle on how like even if one person makes all these changes you can change the relationship for the better, obviously, right?

Dr. Solomon | Yeah. And I think it's, you know, I, in fact, in the last few years have found myself spending a lot of time when I'm doing professional training for therapists, helping them take on that mindset, because therapists who work individually with clients, sometimes are at risk of not having that systemic frame, right? So so if, if you're my therapy client, and all I know, is your version of the story, of the contact with your husband, if that's all I hear, it's really easy, because you're my client, I'm in your corner. I'm Team Robin. So I as your therapist, I'm actually at risk of sort of siding a bit too much with you and sort of saying, You're right, Robin, like, I can imagine how hard that was. And I might, as your therapist, in fact, lose that relational frame. And so I teach therapists how to even if they only ever have Robin in their office, think to themselves, what would Robin's husband's version of the story be? And even to go so far as to say to you in session, Hey, Robin, you know, let's you and I, let's put ourselves in your husband's shoes, like, how might he have experienced you at that moment? What do you think his version of the story might be? But it's not to throw you under the bus. But just to invite, again, that relational frame. But yes, you are right, that, that when we work, individually in therapy, we hold the power to improve our relationships, if what we're doing in our individual therapy is saying, Hey, darling, dear therapist, can you help me understand why the hell I lost my shit when my husband did this? Versus, hey daring, dear therapist, can you please, you know, pat me on the head and tell me I'm right, and that my husband is a loser and that I'm a long-suffering, unappreciated, blah, blah, blah. So that's really like where the rubber hits the road is can we in our own individual therapy spaces even, hold on to that relational frame and ask our therapist to be with us in that dance of deep compassion for our struggles, and deep accountability for our behavior, our choices, our mindset?

Robin | Yep. I took a lot of notes. In the last few podcasts, I listened to yours about managing conflict, and the skills for navigating the inevitable conflicts we're gonna have. And the first thing you talk about is our inheritance. Right? It's our conflict inheritance of really, which is just obviously what we learned from growing up, who are role models were and how they managed conflict because that's really how we learned how to do it, from how our parents did it. Right?

Dr. Solomon | That's right. That's right.

Robin | And so how do you transform? That was one thing that I was questioning. It is just about all of these lessons that you're teaching right? About how do you transform your conflict inheritance? Because that's really what we need to do, right? It's like, we can't necessarily change. Well, we can, that's the word transforming is changing.

Dr. Solomon | Mmhmm. But you're right insight, insight is not enough. Insight on its own is not enough. So yes, the first, that first skill that I taught was about, okay, so just look at your family of origin. Just look at the system that you grew up in and reflect on how did you see differences get handled? How did you see strong emotions get handled? How did you see frustration, get navigated? Like just that, you know, that sort of naming, that bringing, because so often, all of that stuff, what I call like, your love template, all of the sort of early experiences that were formative, it kind of, it's like the goldfish in the water, right? We don't, we don't necessarily know, to call it forth and name it and put words to it, because it just was what it was. So insight is important in knowing Yeah, it's interesting, I grew up in a home with a ton of violent, volatile conflict. I felt really scared a lot of the time. And I bite my tongue. Because I don't want to be anywhere near anything that was like that. That's insight, that's connecting, that's running the thread from the past to the present. It's making connection, huge and essential. And as you're saying, That's not probably the transformation. You know, I mean, it leads to the transformation because now I can say to my partner, you know what I'm learning about myself? I bite my tongue a lot. And I think there's a way that it sells me, well it doesn't do me good, because then I walk around with a painful tongue. But I think it also doesn't do you any good because then you don't, you don't get some of my truths, right, I put a smile on my face when really I actually have something to run by you or raise with you. And I wonder if you and I, I wonder if I'm selling us short because maybe we could do in this relationship conflict differently than what I saw growing up. And maybe I don't even give us a chance to get up to bat to try and do it differently. Because I just am doing, I'm just doing the survival strategy that I grew up with, which is just keep the peace, don't rock the boat, bite your tongue, conflict is scary. And so that's when we start to move into transformation. Right. It's, I think I maybe wonder if we could try and do it differently. Like, could I practice with you noticing when I have a concern? And even if I'm going to bring it up, perhaps in not a particularly graceful way because I'm on a learning curve here can I start to try in this relationship to do things differently? Because I wonder if there's a shade of gray between conflict is terrifying and therefore we have to avoid it at all costs. I wonder if there might be a shade of gray in between there.

Robin | Mm hmm.

Dr. Solomon | Does that make sense?

Robin | Yes and it's so vulnerable and just raw. Like, whoa, I kept thinking of having that conversation with my husband and being like, "Oh, that takes a lot." But yeah, that's, that's what's required if you want things to get better. So one of these, you shared this stat with John Gottman's research 69%. Is that a correct percentage? 69% of the stuff that couples fight about is not solvable? That's a really high percentage, like, Oh, my God. Like, I was really shocked to hear this statistic. I was like, 69%?

Dr. Solomon | I haven't heard of it.

Robin | Well, not that 69%. Like, I mean, I've definitely heard that the stat that. I mean, there are so many things that we fight about that you can't solve. Yeah, but that in itself is so disempowering too. It's like, "What the heck?!" It's like, "Oh, my God, that's when you want to avoid the conflict. You can solve it with x."

Dr. Solomon | You can't solve it anyway. [both laugh]

Robin | But why is it that's such a huge percentage of our issues? Because I would think you just keep on going. [both laugh]

Dr. Solomon | I think if we just try harder, we just...

Robin | Totally! [both laughing]

Dr. Solomon | Yeah, well, you're right. I think it can be frustrating for those of us who... I think we, I think sometimes in relationships, we end up asking the wrong question, like we say, like, "Can this be solved?" When really it's about can we just relate to it differently? Like that still, I mean, in a way, perhaps, that is solving the problem. Because maybe the problem gets solved by everyone taking a different stance, vis a vis the problem or telling a different story about the problem, or finding ways to be actually appreciative of the difference between us. I think what Gottman is saying is, that a lot of these problems have to do with temperamental differences, gender role socialization differences, you know, values differences. Like things that that feel kind of hardwired, a bit more essential, right, not particularly fungible. So I think that's what he is saying is there's just, there's not a solution, because it would require deep, deep, deep inauthenticity, that wouldn't really be a sustainable change. So maybe what we need to do is just say, you know, redefine what solving looks like because I think sometimes a problem does get solved, when you remember that the very same quality that drives you nuts about your partner is the very same quality that drew you to your partner.

Robin | Yes, yes. Right. I think I think another big thing would be like you said, all those things, and also like, just how you were raised, we were all raised so differently by two different people or maybe more or less. And so and that it's so yes, you that is your inheritance, and that is where you came from. And a lot of I believe a lot of who we are is like how we were raised like you can't change that that's something that was out of your control really, but our beliefs and yeah,

Dr. Solomon | I think you're really right. I think you're really right. If we pulled Todd in here, he would talk to you about you know, he calls it the ally tax. I'm Ally to my family and friends. He calls it the Ally tax. It's like there is, there's a set of things that I that are just going to be like the pea under the mattress for me the little pebble in my shoe, because I am married to you ally like there's just there's the price I pay for loving you is that now every few months, there's like a parking ticket that is completely avoidable. Every six months a credit card goes missing like I am, you know like there are these things that he would never, it would never happen to him. But part of loving me is remembering that for all of the great things about loving me, it also means tolerating some things that that just, you know, I sin in ways that he doesn't sin, right. And so, so remembering. So I think that's part of it also on your right and the and the right, he's never going to he's never there's no solution to the fact that I grew up in a, you know, I grew up in quite a different family, then he grew up in quite a bit more complicated family than he grew up in, which affected me in lots of ways and led me to become a therapist. And so there's that you're right, that's there's nothing to solve for there. It just means Yeah, I have a particular landscape of whatever tender spots and vulnerabilities it is different than his.

Robin | One of the five. The fifth way that you can manage to help manage conflict in your partnership is by hating the moment not the person. This one was I was like, That is so good. Because it was really you can like this is you can so personalize it this, right? This is where you can say, well, this is what the next person not about the issue. And it's like you're reframing. And you said it's shifting from hating your partner to hating the moment. It's you and I against the frustration. You and I not you and I against each other. So it's just taking because I think when we are in conflict, like, like, you were like you said, we're going into that it's like the child's mind, right? The Fight, Flight freeze are fine. And so that is our child that is like our survival mode. And that's why you need to take a pause, and then almost like step back and be like, okay, the issue that I'm I've got an issue with here. Not it is you because you didn't issue between us, not just you.

Dr. Solomon | Someone sent me. Someone sent me a DM and she was like, but what if my partner actually did a thing that made it isn't it? Is it is him? Because? I know, I know. I know. Yeah, I know that that is true, right? We do. We do things that are harmful or thoughtless, you know, or create pain and our partner and we are responsible for those things. But the invitation here is just, to separate the person from the behavior, right? We just sort of a different way of saying it, right? Like, I'm so upset about this thing that happened. And yes, you are the one who did it. But you are also more than this behavior, you are a good person who did a thing that was shitty. And that's that can be hard to hold on to. And that is exactly for the reason you're saying Robin is that we move into this child mindset. And children have no idea how to discern between the person and the behavior. So it is that kind of more just a younger framework of just, you know, being so mad at the person and having a hard time holding on to. It's just so unfortunate that we're in a situation where my partner who is a good and decent person did something that is so made such a mess.

Robin | Yep. The principle that you talk about as well is, you say in conflict with words, it's the words in the tone used to hurt our partner. The arrow goes both ways. What is that? It might in my written in that context when you're talking about this principle about how the arrow goes both ways? I didn't quite understand that. Like, I mean, I do understand this, I guess it's like more of a soul level or a spiritual or energetic level. Like if I hurt you, I'm hurting myself. Is that really what you mean by that? When you're talking about the arrow going both ways?

Dr. Solomon | I think it was, I think it was about the idea that the language you know, when we get upset, we this was the part of the episode where I'm talking about intimacy promoting language choices and intimacy blocking language choices. And there's a way that when we are upset our language becomes more intimacy blocking we say things like always and never and shouldn't. And anybody knows we go through this whole list of things that we say because we're upset that end up making a hard thing harder. But the arrow going in the other way means that by choosing those words the always and the never we actually ended up amplifying our hurt, right so my language becomes always a never because I am hurt. But it's also the case that because I'm saying always and never and I'm using this kind of escalate A big sweeping language. I'm actually getting myself more upset. Right by not tampering by not pausing and tampering myself and challenging myself around. Is it always? Or is it this time and this time really did hurt my not challenging that I'm kind of spiraling myself upwards in addition to pushing you away, because the always another language, the, my therapist says language like all that language, a set of language choices that pushes our partner away. Just it just creates more distance more tension and guarantees that we aren't going to get the thing we need. And usually, when we're in conflict, the thing that we need is just for our partner to say, I get it, your perspective makes sense. You are not crazy. I can see where you're coming from, like, that's what we need. But sometimes we make all this like Hullabaloo, I language is getting extreme. And we're working ourselves up and we're pushing our partner away. Yeah.

Robin | Does that make sense? It totally makes sense. Yep. So obviously one of the most important things I think is repair, right? Once you've got your inner conflict, it's apologizing, and forgiving. And one of the things you do say is that shame, it can be a big blocker when it comes to repair. Yeah, can you talk about that?

Dr. Solomon | This is a hard one. And it's one that I think we're probably going to have to go back to in a future episode because it was right, it was 1/10 of the... Well, the last few skills were all about repair. But those are all like apology, forgiveness, kind of like turning back towards each other. Those are all really big topics. But yeah, one of the points that I wanted to make was about shame that, you know, if if I've done something that you have found her if I've done something that's hurt you. And then you say, hey, Alexandra, that thing that you did really hurt me. If holding up that mirror and asking you to look at my behavior, if that kicks off shame inside of me, and takes me into a place of God, damn, I suck as a person. And see, I knew I couldn't do this relationship. And she's going to leave me and this is what always happens. And my dad used to say that I was a bla bla bla. And you know, if I take it to that place of this happened because I am broken, then I'm in shame. And I can guarantee you that there's no way in hell, I can look you in your eyes and say to you, Robin, I'm sorry. I fucked up. I can't, I can't say that to you. Because if I'm in shame, I can't be in connection. And so, unfortunately, shame ends up being one of those things that can block repair. So now you are left with the hurt feelings because I did something that hurts you. And I'm nowhere to be found because I'm you know, I'm kind of hunkered down, I'm in my shell, and I'm having this whole pity party about what an eff up I am and how I don't deserve good things in my life. So you're lonely. And I'm, you know, beating myself up. So shame. Yep, locks repair.

Robin | Well, I just want to invite everybody to listen to those two episodes have all of your episodes, but those two, in particular, Dr. Solomon, are so powerful. And I mean, I have to listen again. And again, because there's just so many like, it's like you said, it's like going into having a big steak, you got to sit there, listen, I had to press pause, write my notes reflect. Because no, and also the worksheet that you have on your, on your website, with everything, it's really good. So I just got so much out of it. And I know that I'm gonna be practicing more and more, and just the way you teach the principles. It's, this is all about using those tools. So

Dr. Solomon | Well, thank you, I, those were two episodes that I wanted to do for a long time. And you know, as people listen, I want them to I, you know, it's a little bit unusual for me to go to, you know, when you're talking about skills, you're kind of going top down, right, you're talking about behaviors. And that sort of a top down approach. A lot of times in my work, we go bottom up, we talk about healing deep wounds, and sort of like different language and different behavior flowing from deeper healing. But I like the idea because we all learn differently because we all you know, are at different moments in our journey. I do like sometimes just a top down like do this, don't do this, stop with this. Try this instead like because sometimes the skills and actually the research in couples therapy has shown this is sometimes doing things differently actually does create deep healing. It's not just all about excavating our wounds. It also sometimes is a little bit of this, like it's not fake it till you make it. It's like do something different. Watch how your partner responds differently, and then realize that you actually are more skilled than you thought you were, you're more resilient than you thought you were. So there are ways in which those skills can create deeper healing and can shift things between people, even if it feels a little bit like, we're just talking about do's and don'ts. Try this, you know, but it's so thank you. I'm glad that you, I'm glad that you liked them.

Robin | Oh, definitely. So we've got I've got some community questions that I'd like to ask for the last bit of our time together.

Dr. Solomon | I love your community, your community asks great questions.

Robin | They do, they're great questions. And we all get a lot out of the answers. So. So this first question is, are you enjoy sex when I'm having it but feel self-conscious about initiating it? How do I get more comfortable initiating things with my partner?

Dr. Solomon | It's a wonderful, that's a really wonderful question. There is, I want to just first validate, that there is tenderness in the ask, right? In some ways, it's easier to have our partner initiate because there's no, there's no synapse that has to be crossed. If you're initiating with me, all I have to do is say, yes, if I'm initiating with you, I have to get brave. And I'm not in control over how you respond. So I want to just validate and normalize that is at one level initiating is difficult because it is vulnerable because I'm all I can control is my initiation, I can't control how you're going to respond. So that's one layer of it. If this person, this member of The Real Love ready community has been socialized in the feminine, if they are a woman, then initiating puts her face to face with some really gnarly old messages around women who want sex. You know, I mean, I think we sort of are raised on this tightrope of like, don't do this because then you're going to be perceived as a prude. But also, don't do this, because then you'll be perceived as a slot like that sort of proved slot, like what would be just about right, kind of a thing that we all spent time while mission said we all we oftentimes feel like we have lived in position in relation to that, you know, prude slot dichotomy. So then we never really did learn how to actually just initiate from a place of, here's what I would love. Are you available for it? Right? It's all about how will I be perceived, what would be just the right amount of desire to express in this moment, without being seen as too much or too little, of this? Then the last thing I would say, is sometimes what blocks initiation is a downloaded inherited story, that there's like a right good sexy way to seduce a partner that we ought to, we ought to look a certain way we ought to sound a certain way. And so that, of course, becomes a barrier, because then even in the initiation, it's like a performance. It's like, how do I, you know, I'm doing this in order to come across a particular way, rather than initiation that just is, whatever feels real and authentic in the moment, right? I mean, initiation can be silly. Initiation can be psaltery. Initiation can be playful, there isn't really a right or wrong. But I think a lot of us have a sense inside of ourselves that like, there is a way to do this. Right. And I don't know that I am doing it. Right.

Robin | Yeah. The next question is, is actually quite a... it's how do we raise sexually healthy kids? That's a big question.

Dr. Solomon | I mean, let's take two more hours.

Robin | That's a heavy one, right. It's just being honest. Right? But obviously, age appropriate. Hmm.

Dr. Solomon | Yeah. I mean, it's, it starts with understanding our own sort of sexual inheritance, right? Whatever. Our kids benefit from our healing, you know, period, that sexual healing, relational healing, complicated, whatever, we are working on healing, we are going to show up for conversations with our kids. Differently, more calm, with just a bit more spaciousness around it. So start with yourself. It's great. I mean, there are wonderful resources like there are wonderful sex educators who really specialize one of one of them is sex, sex-positive families. I love Jennifer Litners work. There are just a lot of content creators who help families because you know what we cannot, especially if you're in the US, you cannot rely on the American public school system to provide for your kids. It's, you know, they're what they're going to get from school you are going to have to undo, or at least fill in but very likely also on do and the last thing I'll say about sexually Healthy Kids, is I love what I've been hearing a lot of in the last few years, which is parents model length consent in nonsexual ways, like just teaching their kids when you walk in for Thanksgiving, you know, and you see all these extended family members saying like, Hey, do you, you know, there's Uncle, you know, Uncle Joe, do you want to do a fist bump, a handshake a hug a high five? Like giving kids choices around how do you want to be touched by this relative, it's obviously not sexual. But what you're doing is giving these little micro-lessons about actually you are the authority around when and how and with whom you experienced touch. And so there are lots of ways that parents, even with like, even to ask your kid, are you you know, do you want a hug? Can I hug you? I would love to hug you like just that kind of modeling that you're you have autonomy over your body? It is not. Yes, you know. So I think that's a really, really important subtle nonsexual way, of promoting sexual health to kids.

Robin | I really like that. The next question is, "I feel pressured to have sex with my boyfriend, when I'm not in the mood, he's always hinting that we should have sex or that he wants to, it makes me feel uncomfortable. How should I approach this?"

Dr. Solomon | Well, I absolutely want you to approach it, I asked him to do it, because leaving it, leaving it unapproached, leaving it ignored, is just going to create a situation of resentment, very likely in both of you right, you are going to keep resenting that your boyfriend, that you will experience your boyfriend is pressuring, and your boyfriend is likely to resent that you that he's making bids that you aren't responding to. And every sexual problem that a couple has, is a couple problem. And I want the two of you to approach this as a team. Because pressure and pleasure, don't go very well together. And so I can imagine this is really, this cycle of feeling pressured, is really shutting, it creates the conditions for you to shut down and pull away. So I would love for the two of you to kind of sit shoulder to shoulder and look together at this question of we don't what are we each wanting and needing around our sex lives? And I love this question of like, what are we wanting from sex? Like, what are we craving? Because one hypothesis I have is, if what your boyfriend is craving is connection, and for lots of men, they've been socialized, there's one appropriate pathway to connection and that is sex, then you guys are missing an opportunity to talk about all of the ways in which the two of you could feel connected. That that some of what you might be really interested in if what he wants is connection with you. Could you snuggle? Could you dance? Could you take a bath together? Could you go for a walk? Could you watch a show? Like is there a more robust template of things that you could avenues for connection that would help that bucket of his I want to feel close to you, I want to feel like you're attracted to me whatever it is that he's wanting in that bid? Are there lots?, I want the two of you to have lots and lots of menu options besides just sex. And by the way, sacks, especially if we're talking about a heterosexual couple, for heterosexual couples very often sex equals penis and vagina sex. And that ends up being that ends up potentially being a barrier because perhaps you aren't available for penis and vagina sex. But perhaps you'd be really available for a makeout session and a hand job, you know, or like maybe there are other things that if there was just a richer menu of options that could count as sex, then you then you'd be able to respond to those bids like sweet Yes, I would love to, you know, whatever fool around for a while. I'm not available for penis and vagina intercourse tonight. But I am available for some of this are a little bit of this or what have you get, you know, have this and I have that right? We don't have to always want it's unrealistic to want the exact same thing at the exact same frequency for the duration of a relationship. It's not going to happen.

Robin | And I wonder if, like you were saying, I think I wonder if there's a disconnect in their intimacy outside the bedroom?

Dr. Solomon | Well, for sure that's right.

Robin | She may be just like, you know, it's just not all about sex for her. She's like, I'm feeling very disconnected in these ways in our relationship, which is why I really not that interested in the bedroom could be

Dr. Solomon | Like maybe asking about my day first. Yeah, I mean, that is, you know, it is a stereotype but it's a stereotype because it is, you know, I have I've had this in my work many times for heterosexual couples where he wants you know, he wants sex and that helps them feel connected, and she wants to feel connected and that helps her want sex. So that is the cosmic joke of heterosexuality.

Robin | So the last question is, "My partner has trouble expressing love in words, and it really bothers me. What can I do about it?"

Dr. Solomon | Ah, that's sweet. I can imagine how tender it is, I would love for this person, I would love for you to ask your partner what makes it difficult because I wonder if there is a deep well, of compassion that might open up for you, if you better understand what gets in your partner's way, you know? Because I imagine that in the absence of hearing loving words, you're at risk of making up a story. That's like, maybe they don't love me very much. Maybe I'm settling, you know, I'm not getting this need Matt, if you had a deeper understanding of what makes spoken language for your partner more difficult, it might help. And it might invite within your partner a sense of curiosity of like, okay, I get why, historically, I have not been good at this. But damn, my partner wants more loving words from me, I can learn that I can challenge myself, I can stretch, I want to love this partner in the way that they want to feel love. So I will stretch, even if it makes me blush, or stammer it doesn't totally feel natural. I can grow in that way. And then I would want the community member to really celebrate any small win, right? So the first few times, if your partner does commit to trying a little bit more verbal affirmation, I want you to celebrate the hell out of whatever it is that you get, even if it's clunky, even if it's blushy, even if it's not particularly glamorous, like celebrate it, because that's how we get more of what we want. The last thing I would want this person to do is be like, Well, finally you said it, but only because you know, like, then well, then you're not gonna get much more of it.

Robin | So Oh, my goodness. Well, our time is... I can't believe time goes by so quickly every time we're talking, but I just want to thank you so much, Dr. Solomon, tell us what you're working on these days. I know your podcast, you're so busy producing amazing content with reimagining love. And what else are you working on these days?

Dr. Solomon | I mean, between that and Marriage 101. And you know that that is really there's a fullness right now, around all of that. So yeah, that would be what I would, you know, where I would want people to kind of dive in a bit deeper is with the podcast, and yeah, my website, the websites got lots and lots of resources. Also, as people are kind of new to my work and want to, you know, feel their way in a little bit. The website and my Instagram feed. You know, those are places but yeah, those, there's some, you know, there's things on the horizon that we're not quite talking about. Yeah. But there's always, you know, as you know, this realm, it's just a fascinating time to be fascinated by relationships, right? There are so many, technology makes so many different ways of teaching and engaging possible. And sometimes it's hard for me to decide what do I want to do next, what I want to try next.

Robin | Yeah, well, I know just tuning into your podcast, I know, I've learned so much. And every time I listen and learn from you, I'm able to take these things into my own marriage. And so I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, for everything you're doing in the world. It's beautiful work, and it's very impactful. So thank you!

Dr. Solomon | I received that, Robin, thank you so much. It means a lot for me to hear. And I love the way I love. You know, I have so much respect for what you do. You are so thoughtful and intentional about the people that you bring to your community and you do it in ways that it's just so sophisticated and so well done. There's nothing you know, nothing for you ever feels like schlocky or pulled together last minute like you are just intentional. And so I know that's why your community is loyal to you and trusts you because you bring them good people in thoughtful ways and you and in ways where both your experts and your community I know feel deeply held and supported. So keep doing what you're doing because it's wonderful.

Robin | Well, thank you. Thank you Dr. Solomon for everything and we'll definitely be seeing you soon. Much love.

Dr. Solomon | Bye bye.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey