Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode #10 with Dr. Jess O’Reilly | Transcript

22.05.26

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today we are joined by Dr. Jess O'Reilly from Sex with Dr. Jess. Dr. Jess is a huge proponent of simply talking about sex, and how doing so can transform intimacy in the bedroom. We learn how our core erotic feelings are a key to sexual fulfillment, how to navigate mismatched libidos how to deal with rejection between partners. I really loved our conversation and I learned so much I always do when I hear and speak with Dr. Jess, and I hope you do too. Enjoy. Welcome to the Let's Talk Love Podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love regardless of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk love. Today I am so excited to be joined by Dr. Jess O'Riley. Dr. Jess is a Toronto-based sexologist, author and television personality, and award winning speaker. Jess has worked with 1000s of couples from all corners of the globe to transform their relationships via her wildly successful Marriage as A Business Program. And I'm so excited to learn more about that, marriage as a business. Jess's doctoral research focused on sexual health and relationship education. And she's passionate about accessible classroom-based education. When she isn't globetrotting, and right now while we're taping she's in Berlin of all places. So she's definitely a globetrotter for speaking engagements. She volunteers with students, teachers, and social service organizations to empower young people to embrace healthy happy relationships. And I know from experience, listening, and learning from you that you are an incredible teacher. And I'm so excited to learn more about sex and intimacy from you today, Dr. Jess!

Dr. Jess O’Reilly | Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation.

Robin Ducharme | So you know, I want to tell you how I met you for the first time and you know, you meet 1000s of people, you know, every year doing all the work you're doing around the world, but I met you, I want to say four years ago, in Vancouver, at the naughty but nice show at the convention center. And my husband, at the time we were boyfriend-girlfriend took me to the convention center and said, We've got to go to this show. I go every year. And it's there's, it's a great learning opportunity. So I was like all game. So let's go. And I was quite shocked. I was this person that had not seen most of the things that were on display.

And you were on stage and you were speaking and teaching all about intimacy, and sex. And so we sat down, enjoyed a glass of wine and listen to you speak for 45 minutes and walked away going. Okay, we're coming back tomorrow for the second demonstration. [laughs]

I really, really enjoy learning from you.

Dr. Jess O’Reilly | Oh, I love that. And the taboo naughty but nice shows. So these are so exceptional. There are no shows like this that I know of in the world, they are only in Canada, I'll go ahead and say that Vancouver is the best one. It's just like got the best crowd and the best and five and the most amazing venue right on the water. And for people who don't know, it's a consumer-facing trade show. And they get somewhere between like, I don't know, it's like 30 and 40,000 people in over the course of the weekend. And so yeah, I give speeches. And then there are products for sale, there's a kink dungeon, you'll see live demos if you want to, and you can kind of come just for the like maybe lighter seminars, or you can really dive in and it's, it's so cool. I feel that the world is lacking opportunities for regular people who maybe don't make this a lifestyle, but are still curious, I feel that the world lacks opportunities to just explore a little over, you know, over the weekend without committing to an identity or without having to commit to a specific lifestyle.

Robin | Oh, I agree. That's right. I went in there with an open mind. And I was uncomfortable with little things. I'm like, what is that? What is that? I was asking so many questions, like a school kid, like things I've never seen before. But I learned a lot and I was definitely very, very curious. So it was great. So maybe we'll start off I would love to hear some personal history on how you ended up doing what you're doing now and how you ended up you know, being a sex therapist and specialist in intimacy and sex and in writing all your books and just what led you down this path?

Dr. Jess | Absolutely. So I was a high school teacher. So I was teaching with the Toronto District School Board up in Canada and I was teaching at an alternative high school and I just had students coming to me every single day with issues that

intersected with sex and relationships. So whether it was an unplanned pregnancy or a broken condom, or abuse in a relationship or unhealthy relationships, not just intimate relationships, by the way, relationships with parents relationships with siblings, cousins and other guardians. And at the time, so I was a teacher, I had an undergrad in sexual diversity studies, I had been a counselor and I had directed or co-directed the Sexual Health Education Center at the University of Toronto, and I felt unprepared to support these students. So other teachers who maybe had never studied sexuality and never had the opportunity to do counseling, I couldn't imagine what they were going through. So I really just saw this gap that was doing a huge disservice, and in fact, putting our students at risk. And so I decided to go back to school and do some research, ultimately, to support teachers. So what can we do to support teachers who are kind of thrown into the fire? At the time, only 15% of teacher preparation programs across Canada required mandatory training in sexual health education, that's a very, very low number like you miss the class. You know, you're sick one day, and you get no training to teach this highly personal, you know, highly controversial, although it need not be because it really is about safety, human rights, fulfillment, and all those other essential things. But this topic that's so challenging, teachers are not supported. There's no textbook like there is for mathematics, or geography, or history, or any other subject. And so that's why I went into this field, and so I went back, did my research. And of course, was hoping to get a job with the school board or the Ministry of Education. So for folks who are listening outside of Canada, our curriculum comes from our provincial level, which is the equivalent to our state level. And so I thought, oh, maybe they need consultants. And of course, they did not. They were like, No, get away. We have no interest in people like you. So I started speaking, and I started writing, and I started working in television. So it's still educational. And it you know, borders on entertainment, of course, as well. And it's not necessarily classroom based. But as you said, in the intro, I still go into classrooms. I mean, I haven't in a while because of the pandemic. But I still work with teachers and students on sexual health education as well.

Robin | Wow, excellent. Well, I read your book, and it is so good. This is the book that I read The Ultimate Guide to Seduction and Foreplay. For those of you that are wanting some sex education, and a lot of tools and tips, I would highly recommend it. We have community questions that I'm going to be asking you as well. So every time we interview an expert, we elicit feedback from our community and what they want to learn about. And so as we talk, I'm going to be asking community questions. And the first question I wanted to ask you was about the difference between men and women. When it comes to intimacy.

This person is asking, "Women and men have different ways that deepen a connection or connect an intimacy. It seems when women have sex with a man, you're suddenly more connected, even if they aren't in a relationship. It seems men don't have these same feelings when it comes to sleeping with someone. In your opinion, what is the main thing that deepens a man's connection to a woman?

Or what is their main act of creating deep intimacy?"

Dr. Jess | Oh, wow, that's a great question. I can't say that I have the answer, I could share some perspective and maybe some experiences that our observations. First, I would say that I think a big part of the difference that exists between genders has to do with socio-cultural norms, and the permissions that were given. So in a culture that doesn't create space for men to express themselves in a variety of ways to really explore emotional literacy, and intimate literacy, sex is one way that men are allowed to physically and emotionally, and intimately connect with other human beings. That's not to say that men aren't equally perhaps inclined toward deep conversations, toward physical affection. And so when we individually observed these differences along gender lines, I think it's always really important to take a step back and ask whether, you know, what part of this is perhaps innate? What part of this is just about individual variation? Because there's a huge amount of variation among men and among women just as much as there is perhaps more than between the sexes, but also, how are we limited in our options? Who is given permission to connect in different ways? And so I really think it's important to look at that first and foremost because my observation is that the differences are really just they're individual, they're across cultures, they have to do with familial and you know, cultural upbringing. I would say that in a dominant, perhaps Western more Eurocentric influenced culture. Men connect through sex because they're not necessarily given permission to connect in other ways. However, the data suggests that men, for example, desire affection, and snuggling and hugging and kissing, but perhaps they don't have the tools to express that. And then when we create that space either on an individual level or when we start to break down barriers in a socio-cultural context, we see that men start to open up and connect in other ways. So what I see among people of all genders, but if you're asking specifically about men, open conversations can be very connecting. physical affection that is nonsexual, can be very connecting, making space for vulnerabilities. So not just talking about mad, sad, happy, glad, but making space to talk about fears about hopelessness, about insecurities. And that's something that we've seen over the course of the last couple of years with more openness to talking about emotions across all platforms, and across all genders, because we've all been under this state of distress. And there's been this experience of shared trauma. I think we're seeing shifts along gender lines, also along generational lines, like if you look at, you know, older generations, perhaps having less space to also connect in other ways. So I hope I haven't avoided the question, I would say that men connect, you know, physically, they connect emotionally, they connect through words. There are many men who also because of, I believe socio-cultural norms, connect through shared activities and shared visions and shared goals. But I think it's I think this is a great question to remind us to create this opportunity for people to be individually variant and not necessarily make it all along gender lines. Is that a fair answer? Please tell me if I didn't answer the question.

Robin | No, I feel the same way. I think that's bang on. So in the book, you talk a lot about seduction, and how important seduction is. I learned a lot from this book! [laughs]

And one of the quotes in the book is, "It can be helpful to approach seduction for yourself and for your lover through the lens of seduction styles, in reference to learning styles." So this was something I never really thought of, right. I mean, there's we I did want to ask you about how love languages translate in this realm as well. But you talk about, can you tell us about the learning styles that influence our seduction styles?

Dr. Jess | Yes, absolutely. So first, I want to say that I co-wrote this book with Marla Renee Stewart.

Robin | I wanted to mention that! I'm sorry, I didn't mention that.

Dr. Jess | Oh, don't worry at all. But I wanted to say that this is really Marla's theory that we flushed out in the book, something that she had observed over time, that your learning styles can also affect the way you want to be seduced and the way you see sex. So you know, research suggests that we learn through these predominant means through sight, sound, and touch. So you might be a visual learner, you might be more of an auditory learner, and you might be more of a kinesthetic, or tactile learner. And of course, most of us learn through multiple styles, there is always going to be crossover. And I also want to acknowledge that, you know, with these styles, there is a limited scope, because there are people who can't see and who can't hear and who can't touch. However, it can just be a helpful starting point. And I think this is an important piece around all theories, they're a great place to start. They're not kind of the finishing line. But hopefully, they start a conversation. And so if you are a visual learner, pleasure is often found in the eyes and the imagination, right? You might also like kind of flirtatious texts and love notes and naughty stories that favor a more visual-spatial style, right? So maybe photos, video clips, peep shows. And so one thing we talked about in the book is for each of these learning styles, that you want to be kind of planting sex seeds along the way, because yeah, you're not a light switch, you don't go from talking about your kids and your taxes and whether or not your daughter had a bowel movement to like all of a sudden, you know, tearing each other's clothes off. So we've got all these seeds we can plant throughout the day or throughout the week or throughout the month, however you build up to your sexual experience. So for visual people, they might be really into consistent steady eye contact. They may be really distracted by clutter, so cleaning up can help to put them in the mood.

Robin | I like that one.

Dr. Jess | Right?

Robin | You don't think that a clean space is gonna help make your partner feel more relaxed and more seduced, but that's fantastic.

Dr. Jess | Absolutely, yeah. And it may be in the way you dress, it might be telling stories and rich detail. You know, you could send them a shot of a body part that's kind of a close-up so that it's unclear and they have to kind of fill in the blanks, you might indicate that you're in the mood by simply leaving a toy out. So visual learners, obviously it's quite straightforward. It's anything they can see or anything they can imagine. And then we move on to auditory learners or those who are really into auditory seduction. And we know that sounds are so essential to auditory learners and their desires span beyond just you know, talking dirty and hearing you scream their name. We know that the sound of a lover’s voice can actually be a turn-on that results in increased electrical activity in the skin. Our voices can indicate fertility due to hormonal fluctuations. And so auditory lovers obviously, like your words, they want to hear feedback. They love to hear kind of new language new ideas that they've never heard before. They're not just responsive to what you're saying. But they're highly responsive to how you're saying it. So what is your tone? Right? What is the cadence? Do you pause? Just cleaning up a room for the visual learner can be a great way to seduce. Putting on their favorite music can be a big turn-on for auditory lovers. And of course, you can keep planting those seeds. People think about sexting as highly visual, but sexting can also be voice notes, right. And I also like to think about seduction and connection. Beyond just the erotic they might just find the sound of your voice very soothing and make it might make them feel safe. So rather than texting them, think about sending a voice note. And then finally sex tends to be boiled down to touch to the kinesthetic to exactly what you do with your hands in your bodies. Kinesthetic learners tend to be attracted to movement and touch. They can be distracted and lose interest if you're not physically connected. So for kinesthetic lovers, you might use kind of different points of pressure. So not just your hands, use your cheeks, use your lips, use your breath, use your lube, use your textures, use running water, play with temperature, build up the desire by being close to them by dancing with them by playing with different fabrics. And not only using your hands on them but also taking their hands and showing them how to touch you. You can you know they might be the type that likes you to kind of wiggle into them while they're watching a TV show. They might be the type that when they think they're going in for a peck they'd get very excited if you slip them a little bit of the tongue. They might be somebody who wants you to linger after you kiss. Oftentimes, it's about slowing down to pique their interest with kinesthetic learners. So I'm such a huge fan of this theory and obviously want to credit it to Marla and we go into detail on how you can plant really specific sex seeds for each of these learning styles or seduction styles in the book.

Robin | The other thing you talk about is something called core erotic feelings and elevated erotic feelings. And in the book, you say one of the most effective ways to better understand, seduce and entice your partner involves tapping into their core erotic feeling. And if you want your partner to seduce you, you will want to understand your own core erotic feeling too. So obviously you want to know what your partner’s is and understand your own so that you can share that with each other. So like what is the difference between a core erotic feeling and an elevated erotic feeling?

Dr. Jess | Okay, so this is, to me the most interesting part of sex the erotic emotional connection because every human experience is underpinned by emotion. It doesn't matter if you're making love, to the love of your life, 40 years into the relationship or you're having a casual hookup in an airplane bathroom, or you're just ordering a coffee and you're interacting with a barista every human interaction is underpinned by feelings. And so your core erotic feeling is the feeling that you require in order to get in the mood for sex. It's such an important theory to me, especially as people come with questions about the boat around losing interest, no longer being excited, and not knowing how to seduce their partner. Sure, there's the physical, there's the auditory, you know, there's there's the visual, but really, it's all about the emotional. In fact, the emotional underpins all of those seduction styles. So the core erotic feeling is the feeling that you need. In order to get in the mood for sex, it doesn't mean that every time you experience that feeling that you're going to want sex but in the absence of that feeling sex tends to be off the table. So common core erotic feelings and they vary widely because there is no right or wrong or universal experience. Common core erotic feelings involve feeling relaxed, feeling loved, feeling safe, feeling desired, feeling sexy, feeling powerful. And actually so I also have a podcast the Sex with Dr. Jess podcast and we just are putting out episodes, we've just put out episodes one on the core erotic feeling and one on the elevated erotic feeling.

Robin | Ok great!

Dr. Jess | Once you figure out the core erotic feeling, you might always have it taken care of like it might be very simple for you. So if you're someone who's who's sitting there thinking, I don't care how I feel, I don't care if I'm happy, I don't care if I'm sad. I don't care if it's raining, I don't care if it's you know, if I'm on the beach, no matter how I feel I'm in the mood for sex. It may be that your core erotic feeling is fairly consistently addressed in your life. And so once you either get to the point that that core erotic feeling is pretty much taken care of like maybe you need to feel loved. Well, maybe you pretty much always feel loved right? Maybe you need to feel safe maybe you're lucky enough that you feel safe in life and in your relationships. That's and let's I'll just say that if your core erotic feeling isn't always taken care of that's okay like if you have to work for it, that's fine and it's your job to take care of your core erotic feeling and of course, you can also teach and invite your partner in to support you but ultimately your feelings fall on you though those are your responsibilities. So once you have addressed your core erotic feeling where you feel it's taken care of, or you at least better understand it, then you can cultivate it to get in the mood for sex. But that's where sex gets very fun because you can now tap into your elevated erotic feelings. And those are the emotions that take sex to a whole other level. Those are the feelings that make you crave more. Those are the feelings that make you lose control, that drown out distractions, that lower inhibitions. So oftentimes, and this is not always the case, the core erotic feeling is rooted in safety and validation. And the elevated erotic feelings which are less consistent and can change from day to day and time to time and mood to mood. Those are often rooted in the subversive and feeling challenged so when you think about for example, kinky sex and how so many of us enjoy, you know, a little bit of subjugation or being degraded or a little bit of jealousy people are into humiliation play and people who aren't into these things cannot fathom why you would want to feel these things. Why would you put yourself consensually into an environment a scene, a scenario, an interaction that brings up these otherwise negative emotions. But when that core erotic feeling is taken care of, that's when you can toy with all these other oftentimes exciting feelings because there is excitement and and a bit of you know, becoming alert, more aware, more sensation focused in the discomfort so when something makes you uncomfortable, it can be very exciting. So core erotic feeling, elevated erotic feelings, I think absolutely worth taking the time to explore.

Robin | I think this is really important to know and to understand. Because I can think about, you know, my partner, if there's stress involved or you know, a family argument, something like that. It's just like, that's not happening. So I think the core, his core desire feeling would be no stress, right? Just like because it's mentally very taxing. So, and just just knowing that it's okay, well, how can I kind of help that situation? [laughs] Right, and he knows for me, it's feeling desired. So just communicate that to each other. So that it's just like, Okay, well, I think it just helps. It just helps so much understand yourself and your partner better.

Dr. Jess | Absolutely. And in terms of, you know, even fantasies and role plays and dirty talk, they all are underpinned by feelings, right? When somebody says, Oh, I want to have a threesome because it's such a common fantasy everywhere I go. People want to ask about threesomes. My question is why? Like, what is it you want to feel? Do you want to feel physically overwhelmed? Do you want to feel overwhelmingly desire? Do you want to feel that feel validated? Do you want to feel adored? Do you want to feel powerful? Do you want to feel like you know, you're good enough to get to other people? Do you want the sense of risk? Do you want the taboo, all those varied motivations for wanting a threesome will probably change the way you communicate that desire to partner or partners will probably change how you approach a threesome for people who don't actually want to have a threesome but want to fantasize about a threesome when we get at the underlying emotions that's when we can start exploring that fantasy in our minds with our words when we're playing with our partner. But if we don't get at the emotion, if my partner says to me, I want to have a threesome like, I don't want to actually do it, but it turns me on. So simulate it, okay. Well, I like I might, you know, use two hands and blindfold him and pretend that there's two people, you know, licking him and kissing him. And sure, that might feel physically good. But maybe it's not the physical part he wants. Maybe it's that he wants to feel desired. Maybe it's that after 20 years of being with me, he wants to feel like he can still attract somebody else. Okay, well, then that's a different approach, then I might tap into that ego side of it, the validation side of it, the desire, the desire to be the object of desire, tell him how much I want him tell him how much I imagine other people want him and play with that. But those are two very different reasons for wanting a threesome, right? Oh, I just want the physical overwhelm versus I want to feel like the object of desire. And then of course, there are many other reasons you could want a threesome. And I think it's so important that when we're talking about what we do, and don't want in bed that we also consider our why. Right so I'm not saying you need an explanation for everything. I don't think you need to like you know, go back to your childhood or go back to early experiences or, you know, have a psychological reason for everything you desire. But if there's an emotional piece to it, that's when I think we can help our partners to better understand, and then play out fantasies, if only in talk and in roleplay. And in kind of bite sized pieces without necessarily diving into them in real life.

Robin | Mm hmm. And you've alluded to this, but you say that your sexual desires, and the feelings you associate with pleasure, need not reflect your real life ideals. You have the right to play multiple roles in life and sex can provide the sense of escape required to do so. Right. And the example you give in the book is like, for instance, you know, you've got a soccer mom that's on she's a soccer mom, Saturday morning, and then seductress by night. Well, of course, it doesn't mean these things don't have to be completely parallel, like your this is. And I think some people, just like this naughty or nice show that I went to, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I was shocked in a lot of ways, like, what the heck is that?

A kid in the candy store. But I'm like, I didn't realize this was going on. But hey, it's the privacy of your bedroom. Right? It's, you know, you can be a different, you can play different roles and be open.

So when the questions we have is, how do I get my partner to open up about fantasies, when they're so conservative? This is probably very common.

Dr. Jess | Super common. It's interesting when I get that question, because oftentimes, people believe that they're more open than their partner. But you're just open in a different way. Because I often receive some permutation of that question like, Oh, I'm super open, but my partner is super closed up. And I always want to challenge people to think about the the, the environment and the relational dynamics they've helped to create, that perhaps inhibit or dissuade your partner from opening up. So I first want to ask you, okay, so what is it you want? What are you doing to facilitate this conversation or this openness? Because if you just turn to someone and say, What are you into? What do you fantasize about? That doesn't always feel like a caring, tender, safe question to to approach. But if you can start talking about your feelings, get them to talk about their feelings, but also just talk about third party. So I love the idea of just watching a show and talking about, you know, what characters you find attractive, what language you find attractive, what scenarios you find to be turn ons and which ones you find to be off putting. Because when you talk about that third party bridge, you're sharing a lot about what you're into what you're not into what makes you uncomfortable, what gets you excited, without actually making it about you. And so even just being able to say, Oh, I love the way he talks to her in that scene, or I love the way she looks him up and down. Or I really don't like the way he's aggressive with her there, or I love the way he's aggressive with her there. I think that's a really good place to start. A lot of people will feel put on the spot when you say, oh, what's your hottest fantasy. And sometimes you can feel inadequate, if you don't feel you have a lot of fantasies. And it's okay to have rich, vivid, varied fantasies. It's also okay, not to fantasize that much. And you might just have fleeting thoughts you might have more responsive desire than spontaneous desire, meaning you don't just spontaneously think about or want sex, you want it when there is some sort of a stimuli that peaks stimulus that peaks your interest.

Robin | Mhmm. I like that. So we all really often get and I'm sure in your line of work, you often get questions about people who are experiencing having mismatched libidos with their partner. And can you talk about ways to help navigate this? This is this is i This is probably very, like, we have like three or four questions that came through from our community about this. Right?

Dr. Jess | Yeah, so mismatched libidos if you're you know, with one other person, it's the norm, not the exception, like you can't expect to want sex at the same time, in the same quantity, in the same way as one person for long periods of time, because you're just different people. And you wouldn't expect to want the same food in the same quantity of the same variety at the same time every day and have to eat together for you know, years on it, and it just wouldn't be realistic. And so first of all, you just have to be okay, recognizing that neither of you is broken. And so again, the dynamic that I tend to see when we hear about mismatched libidos has to do with the partner who wants it more, pressuring the partner who wants it less often to come up, as opposed to trying to find some middle ground. And so this isn't a quick fix. First and foremost, I think it's essential that you're talking about frequency. And so obviously, quality is more important than frequency but frequency does affect the quality of the relationship. And you know, we have data suggesting that the more often you have sex, the happier you are to a certain degree. So that's a curvilinear correlational relationship meaning, more sex, more happiness, more sex, more happiness, more sex, uhoh, at a certain point, there actually isn't more happiness. And that setpoint on average, and this does not, please don't let this be a magic number, because every human being is different. But around once a week seems to be the point at which the happiness benefits stop rising with sexual frequency. So talking about sexual frequency is number one, how often do you want to have sex? And I always suggest this activity where you take a piece of paper and on that piece of paper, you write down how often you want sex. Do you want it once a week? Do you want it three times per fiscal year? Do you want it you know, twice per financial quarter? How often do you want it? And then draw a line and write down how often you perceive your partner to want it, they do the same your exchange papers and hopefully you have a little bit of a laugh and realize that perhaps you're closer. So that's the first thing is to kind of be talking about the hard numbers, not so that you're, you know, setting a goal necessarily, but so that you're acknowledging where you actually fall, because what you'll find is that if you want sex more often than your partner, you tend to underestimate how often they want it. Because it feels like they're always saying no, no, no. Whereas if you want sex less often than your partner, you tend to overestimate how often you believe they want sex, because it feels like they're always pawing you for the sex. And so that's number one, then you're going to talk about your sexual values. And this is a really important piece. And I believe there's quite a detailed exercise in the book, on sexual values on what sex means to you on what the practical, relational, emotional, spiritual, and other benefits and associations you attach to sex, maybe, because this isn't just about how often you have sex for many people. It's about how you connect, it's about how you prioritize one another. It's about how you destress it's about how you, you know, find intimacy and closeness there are many different elements, we attach to sex. And so we need to understand what our partners are attaching to sex, before we get just into the raw numbers of like, well, you want it five times a week, and I want it once a week. So we have to have it 2.5 times per week, which of course, is not realistic. And then the third piece is I often suggest that people create a fire and ice list to better understand what facilitates their desire for sex, all the things on the fire list, and what cools their jets and really impedes them from potentially getting in the mood for sex. And so these, again, could be practical things, they could be related to parenting and domestic work, they could be related to your paid professional jobs, they could be related to your mood, to your hormones, to your health, to your exercise, to your diet, to your what's going on in your household, to what's going on in your family, to what's going on in the world. Politically, there are people who are able to move through the world, and to some degree, ignore politics. And then there are people whose identities would put them at risk if we were to ignore politics. And so all of these things can affect our desire for sex. It's not as simple as like, Oh, if you fantasize, if you get a toy, if you get better sleep, if you exercise, sure all of those things could help. But there are many moving parts, including trauma and collective trauma for groups of people, especially for folks who are forced to the margins of society, folks who live in poverty, people of color, especially black and brown folks, and you know, queer folks, there are all these different experiences, folks living with disabilities that can and I don't want to say universally, because that's certainly not the case can affect our space for sex and desire in our lives. So this is a big answer to this question around you know, sexual mismatched libidos. But I think if you can start with a conversation around sex, your fire and ice list, there was something in between there that I now I've lost lost track, but Oh, talking about your sexual values to better understand one another, I think and then the last piece is, do you want to match up? Or do you want to find alternatives? Right, whether it's taking care of yourself or moving in a different direction, we don't have to find like that one person forever and ever, who fulfills all of our sexual needs. And that's, you know, I think a big mistake we make in Western cultures. And I'm not suggesting that monogamy can't work. It works for many, many people and many people are very happy with monogamy. However, monogamy can become toxic, when we expect our partner to fulfill all of our needs and desires, our social needs, our practical needs, our relational needs, our spiritual needs, our sexual needs, our familial needs, our financial needs. And so what this really boils down to and will be the answer to every question is that voluminous, open conversations are required. It doesn't mean you have to have you know, the conversation over and over and over again and beat a dead horse but, you know, you have to be willing to be vulnerable and work on that emotional literacy piece in order to have more satisfying sex and it doesn't sound perhaps obvious or sexy. But emotional literacy is probably more important to powerful orgasms, than the perfect vibrator. And you know, I'm a huge proponent of sex toys, of course, they've seen them give orgasms, but in the long run, if you're going to maintain desire, in the long run, if you're going to have a relationship where you find some sort of aligned, sexual, you know, Mojo, you're gonna have to also start talking about all the feelings that are underpinning your your relationship, including your sexual relationship.

Robin | Yeah. So what do we do? What do you suggest about with dealing with rejection? Right? In this, you've talked a lot about rejection and how to deal with it. I know, this is a common feeling for, for instance, if you are the one that's always initiating and you've got a partner, that's always saying, no, there are different ways that you that you do, invite us to look at rejection. So I'd actually be interested to hear that.

Dr. Jess | Yeah, this is such an important question. And again, I just want to say that, you know, I don't have the gospel, I don't have the answers. I have some ideas and some insights, and you can kind of take them and improve them, to make them work for yourself. Again, this comes back to this emotional literacy piece, which is being able to just name the feeling to begin with, like, Whew, I feel rejected. And with rejection, I feel deflated. And I feel a perhaps disconnected and perhaps I feel sad, or perhaps I feel alone. And of course, that's not how everybody feels. But being able to just name the feeling is quite powerful, because then you can stop and say, Well, what does this feel like in my body? Like, what am I feeling in my body? And what can I do to self soothe, right? Like, is my heart racing? Okay, maybe I need to take some deep breaths. Am I feeling anxious? Okay, maybe I need to do something to feel a little bit grounded, sit down and kind of plant my feet on the floor and look around and name a few things I can smell, a few things, I can hear, a few things I can see. So name the feeling, figure out how it shows up in your body. And then once you've kind of calmed yourself down, because usually we feel a little bit activated when we're feeling negative emotions, like, you know, feeling rejected, then you can actually do something about it. You can ask yourself, like, what's my fear here like what's happening? So the human brain, the old brain has difficulty dealing with rejection, in part because it's an evolutionary holdover. Right. So rejection, meant that you were, you know, historically excluded from social supports. And so there's this fear that you're going to die. And the brain has difficulty differentiating between, like, Oh, my friends left me out, or my partner said no to sex, and oh, my gosh, I'm out on my own and no longer a part of, you know, functioning society. And this is quite a threat to me. So rejection can feel very threatening and can feel very painful. And of course, there's, you know, a rich body of data showing that emotional pain and pain that comes with rejection can be as severe and longer lasting and easier to recall than physical pain, which we can't really relive. And so, if you can ask yourself, What's my fear? Like? Am I afraid that if they don't want to have sex with me that they are cheating on me? Am I afraid that I'm not attractive? Am I afraid that they, you know, that this relationship is going to dissolve? What is the underlying fear? And then you can kind of ask yourself, like, is this a reasonable fear? And it doesn't mean that your emotion isn't valid, your feelings are, you know, they're real, and they're affecting your nervous system. And there's no denying that. But sometimes they're just not that logical, because we're human. All of us. Listen, I struggle with rejection so much, I have such a fear of rejection professionally, personally, and in my intimate relationship, and really, like, this isn't something that just knowing is, you know, half the battle, I think it's the beginning. And so I think it's okay to just say that to yourself, and then you're going to ask yourself, What can I do to self soothe? Like, how can I think about this differently? And you can also ask your partner for reassurance. It's not entirely their job to to assuage all of your concerns, but hopefully in a loving relationship, they can give you that reassurance, and you can have a conversation. You're absolutely right, though, when you've created a cycle or dynamic in which one person does all the initiating, they're also the only person who has to deal with rejection. And so that's a whole other conversation that ties into what you asked before, around kind of frequency and libido. I do think that in most relationships, it's helpful if you both are involved in initiating sex. And this also goes back to something else I missed, sorry these are just such huge topics, which is that we have to plan for sex and prioritize sex. It doesn't mean you have to schedule it in your calendar for seven 7pm on Wednesday, but just like anything in life that feels good, you build up to it, you build anticipation, you do you do things to make it new and exciting. Like when you go on holiday. It doesn't just happen on its own, like you're researching the hotels, you're reading the reviews, you're looking at pictures you're getting excited, you're making a plan for like the sights you're going to see, or the restaurants at which you're going to dine. And if we could treat sex similarily and stop looking at scheduling as a chore, and instead reframe it as something that you get to build anticipation toward, I think that A, you're going to share more in initiating, and so you're going to perhaps attenuate the effects of rejection or reduce the risk of rejection, although, and I'm saying that to myself more than anyone else.

Dr. Jess | And also, you're probably going to have more sex and find more common ground. And I'll tell you, I mean, we know it's a problem in relationships, when anything falls on the shoulders of one partner, right? If one partner has to handle too much of something, or they perceive that they're handling too much of the kids or too much of the unpaid labor around the house, or too much of the financial responsibility, or too much of the familial or social calendars, people get frustrated, and they get resentful. And the same applies to sex. Like if you're in a relationship, where you're not doing anything to prioritize it, there's a good chance your partner is going to become legitimately frustrated, That's not to suggest that you should be pressured into sex so that you need to do the things that your partner wants in bed. Not necessarily, but hopefully you're at least having conversations around it.

Robin | Mm hmm. It all comes back to talking. Talking about it, right?

Dr. Jess | It sure does. And also being not just like saying the words but diving a little deeper, right? Like, it's scary to say like, I guess when I feel rejected, I'm worried that this relationship isn't working. And then you can kind of, you know, have your evidence for an evidence against column like that kind of cognitive behavioral therapy approach, which is, okay. It feels really bad when he says, No, what's really going on here? What's the underlying thought, oh, I'm afraid he's like, no longer into me. And then I can look for the evidence for and the evidence against and then come up with a more realistic thought I might be like, Okay, maybe he's just tired. Maybe he's just stressed. He showed interest in me like three days ago or a week ago. So why would I think he's losing interest? He expresses a desire for me at other times, and then I can say, all right, it's possible he wasn't into me tonight, or it's possible that he's lost some interest. But it seems like there's still some there. And also, what else can I do to spark interest?

Robin | Mhmm. Something you say in the book is, if there's one complaint we hear from folks in long term relationships, including those that are thrilled with their sex lives, it is that their partner doesn't kiss them enough.

Dr. Jess | Ah, okay.

Robin |The kissing goes to the wayside in long term relationships.

Dr. Jess | Yes, absolutely. And actually, this is one that I hear more along gender lines in heterosexual relationships. So I definitely hear more from women who say that their partners no longer kiss them. And yeah, it makes sense because we move on to other things. And you know, there are different things you can do to get your partner to kiss you more. Number one, you can just ask them right, not complain, not like you never kiss me. Oh my gosh, it feels so good when we kissed. So remember that time we kissed under that bridge in the rain like that just got me going. Let's Let's do more of that. Right. So the positive reinforcement, you can also kind of create erotic associations. So you can make a habit of kissing your partner right before they orgasm so that they learn to associate kisses with these peak intense erotic experiences and overtime that erotic association can build and they might find themselves more drawn to kissing when they're in the mood for sex and intimacy. People also tend to respond well to compliments, right, if you let them know how much you love being kissed, and how you're very turned on by it, and how they're so good at it, they're going to be inclined to do more. And then of course, in the book, we go through all these different kinds of kissing techniques from the supersoft kiss, to the lip trades, to the tongue roll. And I think that sometimes just trying a new technique can re-spark interest and remind us to take the time to do some of these things. And let me just say, because I, you know, I say so much. And I've got this mouthful, you don't have to do it all, like, I don't want to add to the pressure, like pick one thing that sort of appeals to you. And don't put pressure on yourself or your partner. Because you know, if you actually just don't love kissing, that's also okay, like, you don't have to do it all.

Robin | Mmhmm. And you did mention this already, but really, compliments go a lot further than complaints.

"We're not having sex anymore." "We don't kiss anymore."

Right we do as human beings. We're so much better when we're being complimented for what's working versus what's not.

Dr. Jess | Yeah, and those complaints, they roll off their tongue, we don't mean to it's just like, we tend to wait until we're frustrated to talk about things which is another reason why I kind of encourage couples to like have weekly check-ins just you know, how are you feeling? What are you excited about? What can I support you with? So that you're having these kinds of regular conversations that go beyond the mundane? Right.

So passion fades in relationships when we just talk about, you know, our kids and families, our working, and jobs and our schedules, right. And so if we create space for other types of conversations, we're more likely to be in tune with one another.

Robin | Well, I have so enjoyed our time, Dr. Jess and I always learn, like I said, I always learned so much from you. And I recommend everybody to pick up your books. Because there are pages and pages and chapters on real strategies and tools. And like you said like you're learning new techniques, which I think we could all benefit from.

Dr. Jess | Yes, I forget them. I like I forget the ones I've made up, I'm like, I have to go back and watch the videos and read the bugs. So yeah, absolutely, always something to learn.

Robin | Before we close, can you just tell us a little bit about the programs that you're offering, I know you have, you've got your happier couples, and also marriage as a business program. So I'd just love to hear a little bit about that before we say goodbye.

Dr. Jess | Sure. So at happiercouples.com, I have a number of video courses. So some fun easy ones on oral sex techniques that are pretty mind-blowing for the penis and the clit. And then we have a longer program on mindful sex, which I think is just a really meaningful video course kind of chock full of exercises, you start on your own and you can do with a partner. We also have a video course on there on lasting longer in bed, so steps to overcome premature ejaculation.

And then the marriage is a business program is really what I'm on the road for most of the time. So these workshops are mostly for entrepreneurs, and people running companies who want to invest in their relationships, because we invest in every realm of our lives, from health to wealth, to families, to kids. And we don't tend to formally invest in our relationships, we invest more money and time into the wedding than into the marriage itself or the relationship itself. And so I think that's really telling and we can do better.

Robin | Wow, oh my goodness, that is just so true. The amount that we plan and the amount we spend on a wedding, but really when it comes down to it, your investment has to be in a relationship and ongoing. So that's fantastic. Well, and your website happiercouples.com is where people can find your courses.

Dr. Jess | Absolutely.

Robin | And of course, you're on Instagram. Dr. Jess, it is Dr. Jess on Instagram, right?

Dr. Jess | It's @sexwithdrjess.

Robin | @sexwithdrjess I'm sorry. So well. Thank you so much for joining us today and I look forward to seeing you on IG.

Dr. Jess | Yes, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Robin | Wonderful. Okay, we'll see you soon. Thank you again.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey