Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 9 Episode 8 with John Kim | Transcript

01.05.25

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm joined by a friend of mine, John Kim. John is joining us from Costa Rica, and I'm just so happy to have you, John on the show. Today, I was talking to my boyfriend, Hector, yesterday about you, and he's like, he's been on your show quite a bit. I'm like, what about counting this the fourth time you've been on Let's Talk, Love so thank you, John

John Kim l Oh number four, Robin, I feel like we're like, you know, kind of high school, like we the high school together or something. Just because we're doing this, we're parallel. And I love following your story, watching you build your empire, also participating In Bloom, which is also coming up very soon.

Robin Ducharme | It's coming up in April, and you and Vanessa were the stars of our show on Friday last April. I was so happy that you were able to join us and for the panel on Saturday. And In Bloom was spectacular last year, so we're looking forward to it this year too.

John Kim l In Bloom is like the prom. It's like, you know, I'm saying it's and you executed so well, of course.

Robin Ducharme | Thank you.

John Kim l It's fun, it's informative, and people you know, love it. So I'm excited

Robin | I think, I think it's an event that I you know, this year, we're almost sold out, John, we only have 20 tickets left, if you can believe it. I mean, I can, but I'm happy about that. But it's transformational, and it's stuff we need, right. We need to learn relational literacy to be better at our relationships. And you're part of that. John,

John l Congrats on how popular it's gotten, and I can't wait for it to just continue to grow.

Robin | Okay, so today we're gonna dive into your newest book. I loved it, John, here it is, Breakup On Purpose, and I have sSngle On Purpose behind me, and it's on my shelf somewhere. It's a yellow book, but it's not not there. It is there, but it's not in front of me. So I loved your book. So this is different, right? Because you say that nobody's ever written about, you know, there's been, there's breakup books out there, but not books about the different types of breakups and how we go through the different types differently and our healing. Of course, it makes sense to me now, when I read it, I'm like, yes, we need a book like this, because not all breakups are the same. They're different, and our healing pathways are different.

John l Right before we get into breakups, I have a quick story. So I chopped my hair, and this is

Robin | Yes you did,

John l Because we're on video. I chopped my hair, and my hairstylist was like, All right, we're gonna cut it. How do you want to cut it? Give me a name. And in my brain, I was thinking like, 90s, Christian Slater, and

Robin | Oh yeah

John l What came out of my mouth was Christopher Walken. And she's like, What? What? I don't know. Christopher Walken, what is going on with me? Holy shit.

Robin | You know what? Christian Slater, one of my very favorite movies growing up was Pump Up the volume. I mean, like come on.

John l Robin, that's dude. That's the spirit I pull from. I've been saying this, for 20 years, when I created the Angry Therapist, the podcast is, Pump up the Volume. It's the spirit of this guy in his basement talking about things that he would, you know that, that, I can't believe you said that secrets

Robin | Oh yeah, and the soundtrack come all

John l Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Robin | It's just so good. All right,

John l okay,

Robin | So, so tell us about tell us what was, what was your catalyst of writing, your writing this book, because you have really good case studies of case studies, people that you've worked with, you've helped through their healing process. Yeah, I love the examples. But really, what led you to to really break it down and write, write this book,

John l My known divorce, which was the, you know, the first domino, the catalyst to all of this, but more so other people's stories. And then I started thinking, like, you know, if you're going through, say, like, an almost relationship, something that doesn't even become a relationship, but, but it's super powerful because, you know, we're thinking about all the things that we that this could be, and, you know, possibly talking about baby names, and, you know, where you want to live, like that can also be just as powerful that breakup as, say, you know, a marriage that's, you know, been kind of like on the on the outs for seven years. And I just thought it was really interesting that, oh, there are actually different types of breakups. You know, if you're going through a toxic breakup where you have to look over your shoulder, that's going to be very different than, say, a conscious uncoupling, where people are good and they want the best for each other, right? And so I was like, how come people haven't talked about the different types of breakups? And so I named eight in the book. And you know, what is prescribed depending on what you're going through.

Robin | Oh I just think it's brilliant. I really do. And John, I love that. I love how you say, like, there, that's what it is. There's a prescription for what to what to look at within yourself, for your healing through the whatever the different what the breakups are about

John l Yeah yeah. And, you know, like, say a breakup involving children, right? That is very different than you know, if you didn't have children so stuff like that

Robin | It absolutely is. So I want to talk about how you navigated your your your divorce, like, just, can you just tell us, like, a brief, um, just a synopsis, John, you talk about a lot in your book, which I love is how, how transformational you turned your divorce into a transformation. You transformed through it.

John l Yes,

Robin | And a lot of people don't do that. So I just think it's great. You're a great example of how you can take something that is so painful transform you've transformed your life because of it.

John l Yeah when I was going through my divorce, I didn't turn it into a transformation on purpose. It was on accident. So at that time, I had nothing, I had no friends, I had no sense of self. I was just becoming, you know, like a baby therapist, and I didn't, I didn't have any money, I didn't know what I was doing, and so I went through that whole hero's journey, just trying to survive. And it was very difficult. I was alone. I was always playing things in my head. I felt like a victim, you know, all the things that many people go through. And it wasn't until 10 years later that I looked back and I was like, wow, how did I survive? This what worked and what didn't work. And so what worked is kind of like what I talk about in the book. And one of the things was, and this is just the very beginning, it was a big question. I asked myself, What is my solid self? What is my pseudo self? So your pseudo self is a side of you that exchanges truth for membership. Your pseudo side is your false side, your shadow side, your solid side is your authentic self. They call it your authentic self. And when I think about my solid self, you know, I'm thinking a cardboard breakdancing saying he's 12 years old. You know, when the world was big, before I was afraid. And so I just started to tap into that part of John Kim. And the behavior of that was, I found fitness. I got you know, a guy fell into CrossFit. I bought a motorcycle for the first time in my life. I got some tattoos. I started growing my hair long, and then, most importantly, I started working as a therapist in a way that felt more honest to me, that was very taboo. So I said, you know, meet me at the lake. Let's go for a walk. Meet me at the coffee shop. I've never had an office, and when I started this back in the day that people were like, What are you doing, you know? And I was, everyone was on AOL at the time, and there was no broadband, and I was using Google Hangouts was brand new at the time. People were plugging in their webcams, and I started to run groups online, and people were like, What are you doing? The board was like, that's not what you're supposed to do, you know. And now it's like, Zoom is a common language, right with therapy,

Robin | But I think that's the difference here. Is that you were able to relate to your clients very differently than traditional therapists do by sharing your own truth, by sharing you say that, right? By being transparent about what you're going through and meeting them at their own level. Like,

John l Yes

Robin | Like, you know, buddy, I've been there, like, like this, and I can tell that you're a therapist just from reading, you know, and just listening to you, is that you're not, you're not afraid to just call somebody out and be like, no, that's not the way it is. You know what? I mean, I've had a lot of therapy in my days, John and I've been through like, some really shitty therapy,

John l Yeah, yeah.

Robin | And then I now I know, because I've had experience with different therapists when I'm with a good one, when I'm like, Yes, like, just give me shit right now, I need it. I need somebody to be like, no, you're not seeing this clearly, right?

John l Yeah, let me ask you this, since high school, since the beginning of love, when you know your heart was powdered snow, that first imprint to now, how many breakups Have you gone through? Have you gone through? A lot?

Robin | Yes, my God, I haven't counted John, but I'm gonna say, like, I'm gonna say seven.

John l Wow so

Robin | I'm the relationship person, yeah, like, I really am. Like, I'm that person that, like, I'm not a D. I was never a big like, oh, person after person after person. It wasn't like that. It was like, I wanted to be connected to somebody on a deep level,

John l Right,

Robin | You know,

John l Right

Robin | So I, I did end up in quite a few relationships. Yeah

John l My number is high too. My number is like, I think six or seven. And I feel like both of us kind of are hopeless romantics.

Robin | Like, totally, absolutely

John l Yeah, and so I've always loved love. I love building something with someone. I love all of that. But also, yeah, things don't always work out. And you go through breakups, what have you learned from all those breakups? I'm assuming you continue to learn right from the residue of those experienced relationships.

Robin | My God, like my last major breakup, John was my second marriage.

John l Yeah

Robin | And boy, did I learn a lot in that one. I mean, I lost a lot of myself in that. How does that happen for somebody that was married? You know, I was with my first husband for 15 years, and we had a really good marriage, to tell you the truth, until I realized, okay, I need to leave this because I'm not I'm r sJust not fulfilled anymore. I'm not really happy on many levels, but it was a very conscious uncoupling, like we use that word, and it's like we really were very aware and very conscious throughout the whole process. It happened beautifully, to tell you the truth, it doesn't doesn't mean it wasn't painful, because it was one of the most painful things I've been through, even though it was my choice utimately, yeah. Yeah, but it was harder than hell. And then my second marriage, I lost my lost my voice, I lost, like, why? How did, how did that even happen for somebody that can be I'm pretty conscious and pretty aware,

John l Sure

Robin | But I so I learned a lot from that too. It's just, and I was giving my shit give myself shit for a long time after that, it's like, how did I let that happen? You know?

John l I mean we are human, and I don't think there's anything more powerful than love, as far as you know, how we can change this in both good or bad, right? Healthy or unhealthy?

Robin | Yeah

John l Yeah

Robin | So let's go through I really, I love this. Okay, John, there's so many good things in this book. You talk about how we your heart didn't break. You know. We talk about heartbreaking, and it's like thinking about heartbreak differently, and you are posing, you know, asking us, you're inviting us to look at it as a stretching of the heart.

John l Yeah

Robin | Talk about, can you tell us about that John?

John l Yeah I think that this idea of a heartbreak sounds devastating. There's a shattering and also, if something's broken, then can it be repaired again, and all of that, which sounds very kind of discouraging, I think, as humans, our our hearts stretch now it's not it's not easy or comfortable, like you said. It's sad, and you're gonna go through a lot of pain, but our hearts never break. They actually stretch. And what happens is, at the end of it, assuming that you're not just jumping into something very fast, but you're really kind of like reflecting and learning things about loving yourself at the end of it, you have more capacity. And the beauty of this, I think, is when you go into the next relationship, that capacity is something that you bring to the table that you didn't before, which then gives you, and this is what I really talk about, the corrective love experience, the corrective love experience. So listen, no relationships perfect. You know, we all struggle with all of our relationships, of course, but the relationship I'm in now with Vanessa, which has been we're going on seven years, that's a very different relationship than I went through, say, my 20s, right? And I'm giving my body, not just my mind, my body, a new experience that then gives you a new definition of what love love can be, right? And so I think constantly giving ourselves corrective love experiences is what reconditions us, rewires us, and then realizes what, maybe what we're attracted to now we're repelled by.

Robin | You know yes I like John. There's so many great things. So tell us how your your relationship with Vanessa is different. And I'm sure it's grow it has, right? Because you're talking about the beginning of relationship with Vanessa, and how there was, you know, in the beginning, like your relationship is different now seven years later,

John l Yeah

Robin | Than it was when you first met, right? Because you've both you're still growing and changing over the seven years.

John l Yes, of course.

Robin | So how is it so different than your first marriage?

John l Oh and also, I gotta say, but this is the only relationship we've had a child in that's a huge I mean, that's a huge thing.

Robin | It is

John l Raising a child. It's a whole other.

Robin | It's a whole other animal.

John l It's very different in that it's funny, ironically, that I'm here in Costa Rica right now, because when we first started dating, we went to Costa Rica to scout up retreat locations. And for her, it was traumatic, because we got into this huge fight. I was ambivalent, I was unsafe, I was in, I was out. I was trying to be, quote, unquote, seem on purpose. I just didn't get far. I was trying to go do all the things that I missed out on in my 20's. And so in the beginning, I felt unsafe to her. And so she was basically, you know, shit or get off the pot, either be with me or not. And so now the second time, around seven years later, I'm back in Costa Rica. We don't have a house, but we have a baby and

Robin | And you're married

John l Now we're married, and it's different in that I feel like we've built something sustainable. So I feel like we built something that is greater than the parts. That's greater than what I want, what she wants. I feel like we've built something that we can trust. So even if we get into a fight, we trust that we will repair.

Robin | Yes

John l If we don't agree, we trust that that's not gonna knock out the legs of the relationship, right? So, like in our 20's, or even in my in my 30's, I could get into the fight. I could get into a fight don't know how to repair, and that that one single fight can actually end the relationship. It could, it could crumble. It could take the legs out. You know, now I feel like we've built something strong enough where you can disagree and you can get into a fight and you can argue, and you could have ruptures, because you're going to but the thing that you built is, is going to carry you guys, you know, until or unless you guys have changed so much that it just the alignment is completely off, you know.

Robin | Yep. So this is that you've, you've explained this concept of, you know, which a lot of people that I talk to on the show are saying, it's like they're one plus one, and is actually this the third your relationship is the third, right? So I think you've explained that really well, John, because I think that concept is kind of hard to understand for people, like, it's, it's not. Just you and me, like it's a relationship is its own entity.

John l Yes

Robin | That holds you together. How do you explain it?

John l Yeah, well, but you know, it also doesn't mean because I talk every relationship as you know you've been in so many is about not a bad way, not a bad way. Listen, Robin, I'm not saying I've also been in so many

Robin | We love everybody.

John l Yeah, it's in your brand. The word love is in your brand. So,

Robin | Yeah, I know

John l Every relationship is about compromise, in my opinion, but not compromise of self, right? There's there's compromise. Hey, listen, you have, you want pizza tonight? Great, tomorrow, we're gonna have Mexican or whatever, right? But the fact is, when you start compromising yourself, when you start right, you know. And this is where codependency and measurement, this is where you slowly, over time, start to lose yourself. It's like the frog in the water, the boiling water, like doesn't know that the water is boiling over time because of love, you stop listening to your solid self. You start to be more pseudo. You start to do life around your partner instead of with your partner, or maybe you're doing life at your partner, and you start breaking up with you, you know. And when that happens, it gets dangerous. Do you know what I'm saying?

Robin | You start breaking up with you.

John l Yes, yes.

Robin | Oh my gosh. And you don't realize that you're, like you said, it's a frog in the water. You don't realize how all of those things, like, I know that I was compromising my values, and it's like my values, like, you know who I what, who I wanted to be. And in my in that marriage, it was just like, and I didn't realize how far I'd fallen, like, out of myself, until I was like, Holy crap. This is just Yep.

John l Were so people around you saying stuff were your best friends and other people saying, Hey, listen, you know, Robin, you're not the same person as you used to be. Or I feel like,

Robin | I don't, you know what I think it was so like, because I'm, I think I'm, I'm close to people. I have really good friends and close family. And when, when, really, really, really hard things would happen, I would be talking to them about it and asking, like, like, do you do you think, Am I seeing this correctly? And they'd be like, yeah, you are, you know, because it wasn't, like, I didn't. But then I'm like, okay, I gotta work on this. Get another therapist. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna work on that. We're gonna fix this.

John l Yeah

Robin | So also, I was, like, relenting in the fact that I really wanted this to work like we were. Went through four therapists until finally we had the right one that find a good, qualified one to say, like, yeah, you're seeing this correctly. This is not right. But that takes, that's the other thing. That's another that's another episode altogether John is how people can determine if they're actually with a qualified therapist is going to give them good, good, solid advice.

John l A lot of therapists are scared to, because in school, we're trained not to give advice, so we turn it back. And sometimes couples just need, what is truth. Like, like, sometimes you're not meant to be with this person forever, and maybe it was only meant to be for that time. And, yeah, it sounds like, like what you're saying is that you guys finally got called out, or, you know, the truth was finally in front of me. You guys have to look at it, you know, honestly.

Robin | Yeah so let's talk about a few of the different types of breakups. Okay,

John l Yeah

Robin | And, and why and how, like you talk about a prescript, not a there's a prescription, but also a prioritizing. What do you need to prioritize for your healing, right?

John l Yep.

Robin | So you, and you give great examples, client examples. I love that John. So you've got, like, for instance, you've got the big one. What's the big one?

John l The big one is, uh, early love. Usually it's early love, but you know, it's, it's the one when you haven't had a lot of experience with love. It's just, you know, I call it the biggest imprint, right? For many, it's our 20's. It doesn't have to be the big one for me was my marriage, my first marriage, right' And it doesn't mean that it's big, because that's the one that got away or anything. That just means it's big, because we didn't know a lot then, and so we just went by how we felt so big. Because how we feel is a lot more powerful than our logic, right? It's the elephant. Logic is the little writer on top, and they'll have the elephant's gonna go with where it's gonna go, especially when you're younger. So that's the big one. Also, a lot of times we compare other relationships to the big one, you know,

Robin | Yes and that's and then, why is that a mistake? Because, like, You're a different person, right? It's just like,

John l Yes, you're saying something. It's not a fair assessment. Because, you know, when you're like, if you, if you've gone back to, like, your middle school, you're like, look how tiny little chairs were, oh my God, there's so but it's because when you're playing the memories, you're playing it from the age you were then, not the Robin you are now, right? And so when we play back the big one, and if it happened, like, say, in our 20's, we're playing it back from our 23 year old self. And so the love feels very big and fantastic and and I guarantee, if we went back now, as you know, say, a 51 year old, you'd be like, Oh, that felt amazing. But it's not, it's, it's nothing I would want now, you know, and so there is a distortion, and we just have to consider that.

Robin | I think my very first, like, I've got a couple of big. ones my first was, like, my first love, love, but I was in grade nine. I mean, I was really young, right? When your first like, then my first like, my first boyfriend, boyfriend, like, and like, well, actually, my first, my grade nine boyfriend. He finally became my boyfriend grade 10. But I, like, chased and chased, like, I just loved him. So I was so I admired this, this boy, until finally

John l Also, don't you remember that like yesterday? Like it was last summer.

Robin | Oh yes

John l it's so fresh. It was still imprinted in you

Robin | Yep. And it took a long time for him to, like, become like, to start loving me. So I think that happens too in young love,

John l Yeah.

Robin | Like, you know, you've got pictures within your locker, like, oh my goodness, the stories. Miss stories.

John l Yeah

Robin | So, but with the big one, which is quite common, which you point out, is like, people are definitely like, you're losing yourself, right? You're, you're pretending to be something that you're not, you're, you're like, figuring out what this person likes and who they who they are, and you're morphing yourself to be like what they're gonna like about you, right?

John l Yes, yes.

Robin | You're changing yourself so that they will like you.

John l The big one is the relationship, where your life revolves around the relationship with a person, instead of you having a life and the person relationship being part of your life. Does that make sense?

Robin | Oh, yeah.

John l In ninth grade, that's very easy, because in ninth grade,

Robin | For sure

John l You don't have much of a life. In ninth grade.

Robin | Exactly okay then you give the example of the blind sided breakup.

John l Yeah this is the breakup that you didn't see coming. So there's a caveat to this, because I at the same time, I also believe you just weren't looking that the hints were there. Did I say in so like in my marriage, I always felt I was blindsided. She was an actress, she was on movie set. We were on Skype. She wanted a separation. I thought, Okay, this is where I could, you know, quote, unquote, man up. I'll give her something without questions asked. Okay, I'll separate. And then that separation really quickly turned into a divorce, and suddenly it's over. And so I felt very blindsided, right. But if I replay that relationship, there were so many times where she was like, I'm unhappy. This isn't working. I just wasn't

Robin | She was telling you, but you didn't want to hear it.

John l I wasn't hearing it. I wasn't hearing it. But blindsided just means that it feels like it came out of nowhere. And so not only are you now grieving, but now you're dealing with the shock, the emotional whiplash, you know. So what's prescribed here, before you even get to sadness, is just just stabilizing your nervous system. You know, you were just like it was hit and run. Feels like a hit and run.

Robin | Yes, I really so this, and this is why the book is so like, this is why it's so good John is because you don't think that that's what you need to address right away, right. This is what you're saying. You're like, this is a, like, a shock on the body. You need to get into your body, regulate and take some time to so what would you how does, how does, how does somebody regulate their nervous system from a blind sided situation for instance?

John l It depends on what works for you, but anything that calms your nervous, something that grounds you. So for a lot of people, it's like nature. And so I would start with breath. I would start with getting out of my head. I would start with like, for me, I love motorcycles. So anything somatic, ice plunges, if surrounding yourself with people and deep conversations grounds you. So just think about how you know, if just start pulling from the regulating your nervous system as a goal, more than, like, getting over someone right, which is going to come later. So so as far as like priorities, wake up every day and think about, how can I regulate my nervous system, which is very dysregulated because someone blindsided me. I didn't know was coming. I'm still in shock. Okay, let's put my foot on the ground. Let's meditate. Let's have my cup. You know, whatever it looks like for you, and it could be. I'm using these as example, because small things, I love everyday examples. I don't like big things, where people are like, Well, you gotta spend 1000's of dollars and go, no, like, how does the average person regulate their nervous system? And it's through breath, through meditation, through ice, plunges, through whatever works for you. You know, for me, a good workout regulates me, right. Yeah, a good conversation with a friend.

Robin | Me too I think what it comes down to regulating my nervous system, it's like, deep self care. And I'm not talking about like, you know, like the face mask, everything. That's not, like, that's not,

John l Yeah, yeah.

Robin | It is just like, being so much more in your body and mindful, and just sitting having your cup of coffee without being on your phone and sitting and like, looking at the window, right, or going for a long walk with my dog, like, and just looking at the trees,

John l Yes

Robin | Yes. So that's like, coming into your body, coming back into your body.

John l So can I just share something real quick? As you know, our house just burned down a couple months ago, and the first thing that happened was complete dysregulation nervous system.

Robin | Yes

John l Where are we gonna go. We have no house. We have a child. Like, yeah, I don't. We left with the sweats and like my wedding band was in the house, like we left with nothing because we thought we were coming back. So this hyphened activated nervous system. So we decided to get in Airbnb with two other families so we can kind of regulate each other, and the kids can play, and it won't feel so much, so we wouldn't feel alone, right? And then a lot of it was just like, you know, we got a call from you, which was amazing. And we got, you know, started getting support from different people. My friend Justin Baldoni gave us his house for three weeks, and he lives in Ojai

Robin | Amazing

John l And sweep on a gym. And so for me, that was treatment. We went there. And for three weeks, all I focused on was grounding myself. So I woke up every morning, just had my coffee, I did my meditation, I sat in Asana, I did everything that I could to regulate my nervous system before thinking about, like, insurance, am I going to rebuild? Like, all the things I don't have answers to and I think with the breakup, especially if you're blindsided, go back to the basics. Just go back to day one, ground zero. What do you need right now? Like you said, self care. What do you need right nowto regulate yourself, to be present, to feel loved, to feel safe?

Robin | To feel safe. Feel safe. Wow.

John l Yeah.

Robin | So what what was it like for those with the people around you that you, you know, when you were surrounded by those other families and the kids were able to be at least play, because they're so present, they're just like, what do we yeah, thank goodness. But, but that was, that was an excellent way to approach it John?

John l Well, the other way would be us, for me, Vanessa and Logan, to go alone somewhere and be completely regulated, terrified, in the state of panic, and now we're just in quicksand. So it was a smart choice for us to regulate through other people. You know.

Robin | I think that's just awesome, awesome medicine. Okay, so this one the soap opera breakup.

John l Yeah, this.is

Robin | I know. We all know people in our lives. I know people right now that are that are completely it's a toxic back and forth, back and forth soap opera all the way. So how do you deal with your prescription around that? It's very different than, like you said, like The Blind Side. Well, maybe your nervous system needs some regulation around this.

John l But yeah, for sure. Yeah, this is kind of a one two punch, because not only are you going through a breakup, but the more toxic your relationship was, chances are, the more toxic the breakup is going to be, right? So like, if in their relationship, your partner is throwing chairs, well, if you're going through a breakup, he's also probably now slashing tires. I mean, there might be something where you are, you know, looking for a restraining order, your safety, your safety may be jeopardized. And so again, this is about protecting yourself first, right? So whether it's with friends, you may have to change locks, I don't know, but there's a lot of times people go through a soap opera breakup and the other person won't even let them leave, like there's unhealthy boundaries, and so that, in itself can be traumatic, right? So a soap opera breakup is something where you have to prioritize your safety just to even get to regulating your nervous system, being physically safe, sometimes, especially women.

Robin | Right. And you said, and prioritizing strong boundaries, if your safety is not in jeopardy. It's like, like, maybe it's just a clear if you can, like, cut off, right? Like, I cannot be in contact with you.

John l The greatest gift my ex wife ever gave me was her silence. And back then, I thought she was a horrible person, because we were together for so long, and she's drawing these strong boundaries with sharpie, not chalk. And I was like, how could you do that? I thought you loved me. Like, blah, blah, blah. Now I look back and I appreciate it, because I was like, I didn't have the capacity to do that, but she did, and that's what saved me, you know. So like, what you're saying, strong boundaries. You don't have to be an asshole, you don't have to be a mean person, but you can be firm, and you can say, I'm gonna not talk to you for a while. I don't want you to call me. I don't want you to leave voicemails. You know, I'm not gonna text back or whatever it is, whatever boundary you draw.

Robin | Right. Can we talk about the breakup that never ends?

John l Yes. When people ask me, hey, John, can I get back together with this person? My answer is, what's going to be different this time?

Robin | Right

John l Because if it's just like a new haircut or ABS, what's happening underneath is still going to be there. So like, what's going to be different? It can't just be time. And so I think that two people to have a second chance have to go on an inner journey, and they have to come back to the table really different, because what you're doing is you're building a different relationship dynamic, right? You're not just like, oh, I miss you so much, and now I know I want to be with you. The relationship dynamic has to be different or the same shits gonna you know, what brought the plane down is still there,

Robin | Right It's gonna be still there.

John l Yeah, and it's rare for people to be. Very different. Like, I'm back completely as different people, right? It takes time.

Robin | Oh, of course, it does it. But like you said, John, it's not just time because time doesn't heal the wounds.

John l No, no, no, no. It's not ttime

Robin | It's not, it's, it's the work that you need to do.

John l Yeah, yeah.

Robin | So, so, so tell us about that, John. Like, obviously, it's very person specific, but I'm curious, like, as a therapist, when you're working with people that have gone through a breakup, and there's things that, like, you've that, hey, they've you've helped them identify that they really need to work on, okay, in order to be in a better relationship next time,

John l Yeah

Robin | Or with that same person they want to get back together with,

John l Yeah

Robin | How do you determine if they're ready being like, you could actually see that they've done the work.

John l Yeah. So one of the biggest signs is one's ability to repair ruptures. You know, how you do it? In my 30's, even, even, like, mid 40's, I wasn't good at repairing ruptures. You know, I would just fight and be reactive instead of, instead of responding. So it was just a sign that I haven't really learned a lot about myself. I would didn't learn a lot of tools. I learned a lot of shit in therapy school, but there's a difference between knowing something and executing it, you know?

Robin | Yeah.

John l So I was, I was very do as I do, as I say, not as I do. And now today, I have done some work, and I really feel like I'm better at repairing ruptures, right? Just using that as an example, and by doing so, the relationship dynamic could change, because when you're able to repair a rupture, both people are able to do that, there's a lot more trust in the dynamic of the relationship will change, because it's probably not going to go to a place where things are unfixable, or people start, you know, having changed feelings, or start to feel unsafe. And if you have the ability to fight without fighting, your your relationship can, can, can be bulletproof, in a way.

Robin | I fully agree with that. In my new relationship, we've been together for a year, and we fight without fighting. There's no, I wouldn't even say that we fight. We don't, because it's like, if there's, if there's something that we need to talk about,

John l Yeah

Robin | We both know that it's going to be a serious conversation, right? Because it's like, all right, we need to talk, which is like, oh, here we go. Right? We both know, okay, but it's we approach it so differently than I've done in any other relationship.

John l Robin, and you know what you're you're 50, you're half of this relationship. So there is, there's no way that you're not contributing to this, right? So that's proof that you have learned a lot of things and you're showing up differently to this relationship.

Robin | Oh, there's no doubt, very much.

John l Robin last In Bloom was Hector in your life?

Robin | Yes he was, but he was, he was not at the at the summit, he was watching virtually at that time

John l He was not at the summit. But I'll tell you what you were like a giggly teenager.

Robin | I know I was so in lIove

John l It was I remember in the bus, you talking about Hector, and I was, I was observing this, and I was like, fuck, I'm so happy for you. Look at she's like the ninth grader who found

Robin | Yeah

John l And you seem so excited. And you know, it's like honeymoon period when you first meet someone, and all the dopamine stuff. And I remember just like observing this, and be like, oh, I'm so happy that she's experiencing this right now. You know whether it, whether it where it goes, I don't care. But right now, she's in it, and she's happy, and it's bringing her so much joy. And now to know that a year later, you know things are real and you guys feel still strong and good, and makes me so happy. I love that.

Robin | Oh thank you. Yeah, I'm happy too. What I was thinking about just just this morning, I was reflecting this, on this, because we were together this morning, and I was like, I feel like I'm in, I'm finally in a relationship, really, that I have so much love for this man, like it is pure and growing, and I feel the same in return, like it is, you know,

John l Yeah

Robin | And I think I'm sure of that, like I feel very assured of that,

John l Yeah

Robin | That feels good.

John l Of course, it feels good, but also it's earned. You know, who didn't, quote, unquote, get lucky. I mean, maybe the meeting might have had some luck and serendipity, but that's very different than building a relationship for a year. So if you feel safe, if you feel like, hey, this is different. This is corrective. If you feel like, yeah, some work on myself, and now I could put all the tools into action. What a great place to be in.

Robin | And John, you're doing the same with Vanessa. So this is, this is one of the greatest joys to me, right? That I believe that all people can have relationships like this. And this is what you're helping people do is have these corrective experiences, corrective relationships, where you can learn these skills, these tools, you can learn them and you have to practice them, and the more practice I just it's a cycle, right? But it's a cycle of growth, like you talk about that John like in your, because obviously you learned it in school, but you can know something but not practice it. Yeah, and now you're doing. It, and you are, you're an example, and you're seeing it all the time in your therapy practice and with people around, like people that you're working with, how you can have good relationships, as long as you really are doing the work.

John l Yes, and I know the word, the term doing the work, is thrown around a lot.

Robin | I know

John l In a nutshell, you know what it is, is a lot of it is kind of coming to terms with your story a lot, because no one enters adulthood unscarred. You know, a lot of this happens, whether we're talking about attachment styles or trauma, how we're wired. We're not born as reactive babies, right? So it's through our stories and the investigation of our stories and how we were wounded, whether it's parents or, you know, whatever. And a lot of adulting isn't just paying taxes. It's actually going back and re parenting and rewiring. It's taking the responsibility of kind of healing yourself. And that's an that's a lifelong process, and that's going to happen whether you're single or in a relationship, right? Hopefully, but it's two people being on that page and also talking about it together, like, hey, you know what I just realized I just barked at you because you activated something in me that has nothing to do with you, but it has to do with an insecurity because of this thing that happened, you know, whatever, right? And I think part of being in a relationship together is actually sharing that stuff, you know, but like, because it's so it's amazing. That's what makes people so close and understanding each other. And so it's kind of the retelling of our story when we choose to love someone that ends up being healing.

Robin | Yes, retell and just being like, yeah. I know when Hector and I first met, I was super anxious,

John l Yeah,

Robin | And I was feeling like, unsafe in myself, you know, because of the situation I was, I was in before, and it took me a while, like, to regulate my nervous system. And I was, I was like, on guard, like, people, it took me, like, quite a long time, like, maybe six months or something,

John l Because the stove was still hot. And you, you're probably scared. Like, the more you, like, Hector, the more scared you probably were right, like,

Robin | I was

John l Right. Am I gonna get hurt? Is this gonna go well? Is he gonna bounce? Is it like all these questions, you know

Robin | Yep it wasn't about him. It was about me, but it was about him also showing up and being assistant and like through his actions and his words. Like, is this person somebody I can trust? Trust Trust is earned, rightt John?

John l How did you become less afraid? And I know you're only a year in, but how did you become less afraid to love again?

Robin | That's a good question. I like, I just, I don't know. I think it was, it is def my nervous system regulation was very important to me.

John l Yeah, yeah

Robin | Like I was spending way more time calming, like doing my stuff to calm myself down. And I didn't know anything about nervous system regulation until, like, a year ago. I really didn't like I was it wasn't something that I was focused on. It was kind of in the periphery. Like, what is that nervous system stuff? You know? But now I think we're understanding it more and practicing it more, and now it's part of my life. Like, it's that was really important. But I think, like I said, I think it was so much to do with his behaviors, too and his consistency, sure, I could really trust this man.

John l Yeah ,yeah. Vanessa and I do a little exercise. We just call it five minutes, and we just lay in bed with our clothes on, and we actually just hold each other for five minutes. And,

Robin | Wow

John l Talk about anything, we just like II might caress her hair. She's her head's on my my chest. And what we're doing is we're co regulating, we're using our bodies to kind of get into sync. And, you know, and it's little things like this that we don't have time to do, and no one does it. And some people may say, think it's silly. It's like, what's the point of that? You know. But it's helpful. It's like little points in the bank, if you're doing it every day. And you know the Gottmans, who you guys are having on

Robin | Yeah

John l They have this whole thing about the I think it's a the

Robin | six second kiss

John l Six second kiss, yeah, which I love, because it's like

Robin | I know Hector and I have been doing it. I mean, we do, we do a lot longer than that, six seconds minimum. people, six seconds minimum,

John l Yeah. They never said tongue. They never said trench kissing Robin, but um yeah, Rob, is that it's a six minute kiss which leads to another hour of something else, but like, even something like a six second kiss, because we forget things where and so for us, it's the, we call it five minutes, and it's, it's really, um, just five minutes of our bodies, not sexually, just our bodies, co regulating. You know, mothers do this with children,

Robin | Of coursewe do

John l Right? Like, when they get hurt, we hold them and we just, we don't

Robin | Or before bedtime, I'm just rocking my son and, like, that's, that's, he knows. It's like, this is, oh, this is my time.

John l Yes

Robin | And me too. I love it.

John l You don't want you to rock your partner, because we don't want to.

Robin | There are no mothering and fathering partners here. We're not doing that

John l But co regulation. That's just an example of something that's, you know, nervous system related, but using our bodies instead of our logic. And we'd have to say anything just co regulating.

Robin | I just think that's really beautiful. I'm gonna, we're gonna start doing that. The Five Minute co regulation

John l Five minute co regulation and the six minute,

Robin | Six minute kiss.

John l Yeah, no, exactly that. Robin, yeah, that's for most people, six minutes is not only the kiss, but that's the entire that's the entire

Robin | That's excatly what I just said. This is not intercourse. Robin, all right, so taking ownership. Okay, John, this is such a big thing you talk about in your book. And I mean, I think taking ownership is just such taking accountability.

John l Yeah

Robin | For so you must talk about this a lot with with your clients, even just with every breakup, it's like there is two people in this relationship. And if there's cheating, infidelity, whatever it is, you know, if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, for example, I mean, I know that's that there's going to be a lot of talk about that in the summit, because we've got Dr. Ramani coming. But what is the accountability on both sides, you know, in that relationship?

John l Yeah. I think when there's something like whether it's narcissism or infidelity, it's very easy to say, listen, it's not me, like this person has a personality disorder, or this person cheated on me. I did nothing. Well, that may be true, but if you think that you are the victim in something that's the most powerless mindset, right? Even with my house burning down, I could say, listen, we did nothing wrong. Our fucking house went on fire, we lost everything. But if I hold, I'm not saying that you're not a victim. I'm saying the victim mindset. So if I stay in that mode, it's a very deep powering mode. You know, the only way to get the power back is to own. It's to take ownership. It's to accept and to say, okay, well, I didn't cheat in this relationship. But, oh, you know what there where were times that I didn't speak my truth. There were times that, you know, whatever, I stonewalled or I did this. There were, you know, also I picked, I picked this person. I chose to love this person. Right?

Robin | Exactly

John l Right. No one forced you on this person. So any ownership you can take by reviewing the black box and why the plane went down, and just saying, you know what here's some things I could have worked on. You know, that's huge, and that's gonna give you more power. And it's gonna get you to say, Okay, well, if I want to own these things, what does that look like in action? Okay, well, listen, I got mommy issues, or, listen, I'm this, or I'm reactive, or whatever. And then it gives you kind of a blueprint on what you need to work on. You know,

Robin | Yes,

John l By doing so, when you find someone who you deserve to love, you're going to be 50% of that relationship. So you're going to show up differently, which is going to change the dynamic of that relationship, which, again, they give you a new experience.

Robin | Right. I remember taking stock on, on what was going on after my divorce. It was like, how did this happen? You know, I was questioning all of that, right? How did I let this happen? Like that, It like, that's, that's where I started giving myself a lot of shit. And then it was like, okay, what can I do differently for so this doesn't happen again, because that's the thing, is, if you're not looking at your side of it and how this how you did partake, of course, to create that you're going to repeat,

John l Yes

Robin | Very likely. And so mine was just like, okay, if there are red flags, if they're red, I'm going the other direction, like, there's not even Okay, right no, there's not, there's not a past go, and taking time to really get to know someone and before you, before you fall into 100% trust, right? Like, how can you trust somebody that you just met or

John l Right, right

Robin | And I think people do that often. They it's like, all the bells and whistles and everything else, like, by the third fourth date, you're like, completely head over heels in love with this person that you really don't know.

John l So Robin lease, with an option to buy when da

Robin | Lease with an option to buy. Oh, you ever heard that one before. Good one.

John l Well, even if, even if the car drives like a Porsche, and you're having so much fun and you're like, like, I'm sold on this. Lease, it lease. And then when the option is up, then you can buy. And let that option be, you know, six months a year

Robin | Six months to a year. Is that what you're saying John, ?

John l Yeah.

Robin | Well, because, like, just

John l It takes that long to get to really know someone

Robin | Yes it does

John l To know someone you know, because the look, the look you've been through this the first couple months, is just chemicals.

Robin | Oh, yeah.

John l I mean, we're just jello, you know, and we're so in love. Listen, I saw it in you last year. It's not bad. It's one of the nectars of life. Is that feeling of like I have a crush, this person loves me, and we're exploring bodies and oh, my God, nothing matters. This is amazing. You should enjoy that.

Robin | Yeah.

John l And then we start seeing the dirty socks on the floor, and then we start getting disappointed when things don't go or whatever, we start having fights and and then we start, you know, learning, learning about each other, our stories. And then we learn, kind of, the cadence, the dance, and how to, how to, how to, you know, hold safe spaces and take ownership. And it takes, you know, it takes six months to a year, you know, to really get to know someone you know.

Robin | For sure, and longer. Yeah, it's a journey

John l And longer and then you move in with someone, you're like, oh, I didn't even know this person. Okay, now there's 1000 other other things, you know.

Robin | Yeah

John l Yeah

Robin | All right, so let's go through the three step reflection technique before we close. Because I think this is great on how we can all do this, going through, like, a big transformation, trans, transition in our lives, especially a breakup. So number one,

John l Ok go ahead. Yeah

Robin | Acknowledge, right? Like, if you're gonna go through, it's like when you're going through, I think this is the accountability piece,

John l Yes

Robin | But also the steps you can take on your healing is acknowledging, taking a moment to acknowledge and label the regret you're feeling. Try saying to yourself, I'm feeling regret about like a specific situation, so that you can step into like you have to acknowledge something in order to go through learning about it, learning right, which is the second step, reflecting on what you've learned from the situation.

John l Yes,

Robin | Consider what actions you might take differently in the future, and then your release. So what the release piece was like, oh, yeah. Like, whether that's forgiveness, maybe it's not forgiveness, but it's like you say, imagine placing your regrets in a container like a balloon or a river and then watching it float away or flow downstream. The release part, I think, is really hard for people,

John l Yeah, because we carry we also hold on to resentment,

Robin | Yes

John l Especially with things like infidelity, I get it, it's really hard to do. But also, release can be compassion. Release can be self forgiveness. You know, a lot of times we're a mad ourselves for things that we need to let go of.

Robin | Yeah, how do you how do you help people with forgiveness? John, like, if people are like, do you actually talk to people like, do you want to talk about forgiveness, or is it because forgiveness is such a personal thing, and it might be like, I'm not ready to forgive. Okay? Well, if you're not, you're not right. I just wonder what your view is on forgiveness.

John l Well one of the things I do is I say, tell me specifically what you want to forgive this person for. So like, let's say someone cheated on you. Okay, I want to forgive this person for cheating. That's too wide. Let's go micro. What do you want to really and then I really get into all the little splinters, all the things, because, you know, because cheating, because, like, forgiving someone for cheating, it's too big of a pill to swallow, you know, let's start with something smaller. So again, forgiveness is a process. It's, it's, you know, some days it's easy, some days it's hard, but I like getting very specific. It's like with we know when we say we're grateful, and people start just reading a list. I'm grateful for my son, I'm grateful for my job, and then we just kind of go through the motions, and it doesn't mean you stick right. So even with gratitude, I'm like, Give me something very specific that you're grateful for. Oh, I'm grateful for the three minutes I have with Robin when we're talking about how my hair looks like Christopher walkens or whatever,

Robin | Christian Slater

John l Thanks.. And I think free free, stop looking at my hair. And so like with forgiveness. With forgiveness, what specifically are you forgiving your partner for? And is this very specific? And I think that helps tremendously.

Robin | I really like the specificity. I think that is because, like, I said, if it's too general, you're gonna lose it. It's just not, it's just too it's too big of a concept. It's not like, actually, if you get really specific, maybe it's a big thing. Like, you really hurt me so deeply and so profoundly when you did that thing. It felt like the ultimate betrayal,

John l Right

Robin | I really want to forgive you for that.

John l Yeah

Robin | SStill a huge, massive, massive thing to forgive, but being more specific makes it more real to you, more personal

John l Makes it more real, makes it more potent. Yeah, thanks you.

Robin | Well, John, Kim, I love spending time with you. I love talking to you. You always make me laugh, and there's always so many insights.

John l So thank you Robin you are officially a friend now, I mean, we've been doing this. Personally, I loved coming to In Bloom. And I gotta say, guys, In Bloom is it's amazing. Robin knows how to do things on the highest scale. So whether it is all the speakers, but also you come down with us, you hang out with us, you go to dinner with us, and everything, and so just a space that you create, it's so lovely. So yeah,

Robin | Thank you, buddy

John l Doing all that .

Robin | Thank you.

John l Yeah,

Robin | Ok we're gonna close with a blessing, because that's what we do here at Real Love Ready, because it's all about you, and I feel blessed to be have time with you and to read your book. It was awesome. So may we reframe breakups as a rite of passage, your breakup offers a great opportunity to do breakthrough work. That's the thing you talk about in your book, John, is a breakup can lead to breakthrough that is so good, after the emotional dust settles, you will have new lenses and a sharp and sharper clarity and a path to build a healthier version of yourself. May we do the work in order to learn what it takes to give ourselves a new love experience, a corrective love experience, as John calls it, and may we remember our stories are the most valuable thing we will ever own to grow and evolve, we must use all part. Of our stories. You talked about that today too, John, so thank you.

John l Thank you for having me Be well.

Robin | You too. Bye.