Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 8 Episode 8 with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford | Transcript

14.11.24

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hello our wonderful listeners and community. I am so excited to be joined by Dr Joy Harden Bradford today for our conversation about community and sisterhood on Let's Talk Love. So thank you for joining us. Dr. Joy.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford l Thank you so much for having me, Robin. It's a pleasure.

Robin Ducharme | It really, really is. I listened to your book Sisterhood Heals, The Transformative Power of Healing in Community this week, and I loved your book, Dr Joy, I think the work you're doing to help black women, black girls and building community amongst women is powerful, important work, and talking about the healing aspect of that my best friends, I've got, actually quite a few best friends that work with us on our team at Real Love Ready, which is incredible. So we know the power of friendship and community, and this is the very first time that we on this show like I think I actually don't know the number right now. I think we're up to 80 episodes, but we have never had a guest on to talk about friendship and sisterhood and healing. In that aspect, we talk a lot about intimate relationships, but we really don't talk about friendship. So this is exciting, Dr. Joy.

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford l Very exciting. I'm very happy to be here to talk about this for the first time. But you know, Robin, I really appreciate you creating space for this conversation, because I think that's a part of what I talk about in the book, right?

Robin Ducharme | Yeah

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford l Is this idea that when we think about love, when we think about intimacy, so much of it is focused on romantic relationships, right, but our friendships and the relationships we have with the women in our life are also incredibly intimate in some ways, maybe even more intimate than those with a romantic partner, right? And so I really appreciate you creating space to have this conversation.

Robin l So I know that you are a licensed psycho psychologist. You've got your Master's in Counseling, and you've got a breadth of work in helping in this, in this aspect. So can you tell us about your background, please, Dr Joy, and I know you've created this online space where you're helping women with, you know, accessing therapy. So please just tell us a little bit about yourself and why, yeah, actually, also why you what led you to write your this book?

Dr. Joy l Yeah so as you mentioned, I have a master's in vocational rehabilitation and counseling, and then I have a PhD in counseling psychology. And as a part of the PhD program, we were required to do an internship, and I did mine at Virginia Commonwealth University and in the counseling center there, and had the opportunity to learn how to do therapy groups, interpersonal process, therapy groups. And I really feel like I just fell in love with that modality. There was something that was so incredibly powerful about the transformation that you saw happen in a group that was very, very different than I saw like in individual work, because we were doing both at the same time, right? And so I think that group just became a real love and a passion for me. And so I really wanted to be able to use what I've learned in group and talk about it in the book in Sisterhood Heals. And so talking a lot about how our friendship groups and how our sisterhoods really mimic sometimes what we see in group therapy. A lot of my background is also in college student mental health, and my favorite part of that work was always outreach presentation, so where we would go out to the sorority meetings and to the residence halls to have presentations about mental health. And I really see therapy for black girls as a continuation and an extension of that work. The podcast, I think, is like a new outreach opportunity for me, where I'm reaching people wherever they are, talking about different kinds of mental health topics.

Robin l How important is that right? So how would you define sisterhood?

Dr. Joy l Sisterhood I think, is the family we choose for ourselves, right? So there's a form the family we're born into, but I think sisterhood are those women that we surround ourselves, that we are accountable to, that are accountable to us, who really kind of help to pick us up and support us throughout life,

Robin l Right. And so you talk about, you know, you share, of course, about yourself. In your book, and your story of how, when you were little, you would be on the porch with your your your family members, right, your aunts and your mom and and watching that dynamic, and how that really helped shape what, how you see that you know, how important community is. Can you talk about that, and how, like, just the modeling, the modeling that you grew up with

Dr. Joy l As you mentioned, that Robin, I'm, like, instantly transported to my grandmother's front porch because I spent so much time there. And so my mom actually has six sisters, and I have probably 31st cousins that are girls. And so there's just a lot of women in my family, and so holidays and time spent there were always really special and magical. And I feel like I always just felt so loved and supported by the women in my family, men too. But I think a special, a special kind of relationship with the women in my family, and the relationships I saw between my mom and her sisters, and I think that just kind of people watching and kind of paying attention to what was going on, really just kind of gave me a thirst and a quest for human behavior and like, why we do the things that we do. But I think, you know, kind of going back to the ideas around how our ideas about relation to other women are shaped by the early experiences we have. I think if you see your mom and grandmother and aunts and people have good relationships with other women, I think it is more likely that you then mimic that in your own life, right? And I think for a lot of us, there has been messaging and like ideas that we've been taught by the women in our family about being really weary of other women in our in our lives, right? Like that you can't trust women that there's all this cat fighting, and you know that you can't get too close to other women. But I think when you've seen healthy relationships and seen your mom and aunts and grandmothers have healthy female friendships, then you are more likely to seek that out for yourself as well.

Robin l I agree with that. Dr joy. I mean, I grew up with the same modeling around my mom, had good friends, my family, the women in my family, very supportive and loving and caring. And sit down and just talk about absolutely anything and everything. There was no odd part but, you know something, I mean, I learned so much from reading your book, and especially around black women culture. I mean, obviously I'm, you know, Caucasian, white women, that doesn't I really, it was. So your book was so informative. So thank you so much. But I was, I was surprised to hear that that in as a black girl growing up, you said, in the culture of you said, there you were, you were actually like, you just said you were you were raised to think, like, be careful of that those girls at school, right? You're from a young age, and so where do you where do you think that is, whereas you said right now that, you know, you grew up with a very supportive, like sister circle that you that you were modeled so that seems to be a juxtaposition, right? Like, was it like ok, you could trust your family. You can trust the women in your family, but don't trust strange stranger girls at school. Like, how does that

Dr. Joy l Exactly

Robin l Can you just talk a little bit more about that.

Dr. Joy l Yeah, and I think a lot of that kind of comes from this scarcity mindset that unfortunately has been a part of black culture, kind of dating back to slavery, right? Like this idea that we are kind of needing to be leery of one another, and like, only one of us can succeed, right? So who was in our plantation house and who was on the field? Like a lot of it kind of, I think, spawns from there. And so this idea that, yes, you could trust family, like I never was taught anything about, like not trusting family members. But there were conversations around like, not being too close to other people. Don't tell people too much of your business, because you never know how they're going to use it against you. And I think a lot of that, again, comes from this idea that you don't want to have somebody else succeed, and then you can't go after the things that you want to do. Now, I'm glad that no more of us are having different kinds of conversations with the young women in our lives, and I don't feel like I hear that as much. But you know, I'm not the only one, you know, in doing the focus groups I did for the book, many black women had that same kind of story that they were taught to be a little more cautious about other girls in their lives and, you know, to kind of hold people at an arm's length

Robin l Right. So this was another I wrote down this, this quote, or just around the fact that talking about the how our friendships really help with our physical and mental health, but then you talk about loneliness, right. You said the loneliness index reported that 61% Americans shared feeling lonely that same year, a study of 2000 Americans commissioned by evite found that the average American hadn't made a new friend in the past five years. And I was like, holy crap. So this is my best friend and I, who work on the podcast together, and I was like, do, like, looking on my like, counting on my hand, my new friends in the last five years. And I'm like, you know, I was naming, like, really close people in my life that just came into my life in five years. And I'm like, I'm like, that's pretty awesome. But also like to think that that's not common. Like, wow,

Dr. Joy l Yeah

Robin l Were you shocked to read that? Because I'm thinking, even my partner that I'm with, like, I love him so much. He's impacted my life so greatly. I met we, you know, we've been together almost not eight months. Like, doesn't seem like a long time, but my other best friend and this best friend I'm like, we met in the last five years, and like, what a great, huge improvement that they've brought into my life.

Dr. Joy l Yeah, I think I was both shocked and not shocked to read that Robin, because I think about, like, how busy most of us are, right? I think, you know when people are going to work and then going to, you know, after school activities, maybe for their children, and then, like, you got to get home and get dinner on the table, and then, like, you sleep for a few hours and you start it all over again, right? Like, when are people actually having the time to connect with new people. Now, I think that there are opportunities to meet other people in some of those settings, but I think for most people, they are kind of like, in a routine of, like, kind of just trying to get through the day and through the week. And so there isn't a lot of time, right? Like, you hear all this conversation about the lack of third spaces, right? And like that, we don't have these places to kind of casually hang out anymore, and so I'm not surprised that more people are not like finding new friends to connect with.

Robin l Right hope that everybody reads your bump Doctor Joy, because it's just so full of tools, really, information and tools for having deeper intimacy with your friendships. Because really, I know in my own life, I've got nine best friends that I grew up with.

Dr. Joy l Ok

Robin l And I know that's not common.

Dr. Joy l No

Robin l It is so rare, like there's 10 of us and we are close. Like, it's not just there's 10 of us and we just go, like, girls trips. No, no. It's not like that at all. It's more like we are sisters and like to the bit like we are, like, very, very close. But I understand that that's a rarity. So what, what are the 4 S's of sisterhood?

Dr. Joy l So sisterhood allows us to be seen. So there is a way that, I think black women see one another that really allows you to feel, um, not invisible as many of us do, I think in other spaces in our lives. So it allows us to be seen. It allows us to be supported and to support one another. It allows us to soften. So in conversations for the book, there was a lot of, you know, talk about, like, having to kind of put this armor on before you go into a workplace, or before you go into a particular kind of setting. And then when you're with other black women, you don't have to, you know, kind of feel that. And then sisterhood also allows us to have greater knowledge of ourself. And so I think that there are some things that we just do not and cannot know about ourselves until we are in relationship with other people. And so having these intimate, close relationships with other women really allow you to have a greater knowledge of yourself.

Robin l Right. And you talk about guidelines in sisterhood, right? And so this is this from your model of doing group therapy, like, Dr Joy, for those of the listeners that haven't read your book yet and aren't really familiar with your work of organizing group therapy, like, what would be like how does it work? Like, with, with, for instance, like guidelines that people that you absolutely recommend like to follow?

Dr. Joy l Yeah. So I think it's really important for you to have a genuine curiosity about other people. I think so many times when, like we get into a conversation, it can feel judgey, right, which never feels good, right. But I think when people approach us with a spirit of curiosity. I think it is a very different kind of conversation, and you're actually inviting a conversation, as opposed to, like, one word answers. So I think that that's really important is that we approach conversations with a spirit of curiosity. I also think it's really important to have no distractions in your space, right? So again, many of us are so busy trying to multitask and like, okay, let me squeeze in this conversation with my girlfriend. But if you really want to kind of create space for somebody and hold space for somebody, then I think it's really important that you kind of be away from your phone, you're not trying to tend to other kinds of things at the same time. And I also think it's really important for you to make sure that you actually have adequate space to be able to manage anything that they may be talking about, right? So a part of what we learn as therapists is that there may be particular kinds of cases that you cannot take because it's too close to maybe something going on in your own life, you know. So the example that we use pretty often is, you know, if you are going through a recent divorce, are you able to effectively help another couple who is having marriage or relationship problems, right? And sometimes the answer is yes, but sometimes the answer is that it's too close, right? And your objectivity is compromised. And so maybe you need to step away from those kinds of cases you know, for the time being and I think that the same thing happens with our own relationships, right? Like, if a friend is struggling with relationship concerns, and we are also struggling with relationship concerns, are you actually in a good place to be able to hold space for this person, to be able to not muddy your stuff with their stuff, so that you're not objectively listening to them.

Robin l And so let's, let's talk about holding space, because I don't think, I just think there's a lot around this concept, like, what does it mean to clearly, hold, like, to hold space for someone.

Dr. Joy l Yeah. And I think that that's a term that kind of has been thrown around a lot, Robin

Robin l I think so too

Dr. Joy l And people yeah, don't know that people always know what it means. But it is kind of

Robin l They make it up

Dr. Joy l Yeah. It's kind of figuratively creating a container for somebody to deposit what they are struggling with or some experience that they are feeling. And so that does look like being non judgmental, that looks like listening more than you are talking. That looks like really just kind of sitting with someone in the depths of whatever it is that they are struggling with. And so it doesn't always look like you having to have the answers. In fact, most often you won't have answers if you're just holding space for someone, but it really is just like the sitting alongside someone when they are really struggling with something.

Robin l Yes something that. So this was at least about 11 or 12 years ago. I joined a group called our group is called Soul Circle. There's four women. We come together every two weeks for an hour in the morning, from 7 to 8am right? And and our ritual is that we, we only have an hour, but we, we make sure that we divvy up the time and we hold space for each other, for we each have our 11 minutes, let's say, and somebody's, somebody's the timer, and we go through and share whatever we want to and and then after our 11 minutes is up. The other three, after witnessing, listening, holding space, can ask for consent. Like, would you like me to say, would you like feedback? Right. It's like this the most loving container i I'm telling you. It's been transformative, and I think anybody can do

Dr. Joy l How did this group come together, Robin.

Robin l So originally, it was through a Business Mastermind idea,

Dr. Joy l Okay

Robin l You know, most of us had taken B school and wanted to talk about our businesses, the Marie Forleo B school, right. And then over time, we realized that our group was just talking way more about our personal stuff, like, that's what we needed in our group. And now, I mean, we've lost a few members, but all for the right reasons. I just think it's like, what's meant to be is meant to be in our in our group is so sacred. And now it's like the four of us that are still there, you know, every two weeks, and it doesn't take a lot of time. I think that's your thing. Joy is that, you know, it is incredible what this group has really brought to my life. And I know we all feel the same way, but it's one hour every two weeks. I mean, you think about it, but then we support each other. Of course, you know, we're friends. We're really, really close friends now. So it's not like we don't connect outside of that.

Dr. Joy l Right

Robin l But I just, I think there's just so much beauty in the holding space part, right.

Dr. Joy l Yeah and I think that there's something really special about like the intentionality of having this protected time on your calendar, right. Because I think that this is where a lot of the intimacy is lost in friendships, is that it feels like, oh, I've known them for so long, and so we can kind of just catch up whenever. But a lot of us know that if it's not on the calendar, it's probably not happening. And so I think having that very clear time that is protected you know, you're not scheduling anything else there, you're probably trying not to miss it, if at all possible. I think that there's something that's really powerful about the intention set behind that and everybody kind of protecting that time and space with one another.

Robin l So what about vulnerability. And so, how are you counseling, coaching, guiding people to open up to being how important vulnerability is. Can we please talk about that Dr Joy and then, like, how are you leading women to become more vulnerable so that they can build more intimacy in these connections?

Dr. Joy l Yeah I think vulnerability is really, really difficult. Because I think especially for black women, right? Like so many of us, have been socialized and taught to have this, like, strong exterior, like you got to be there for everybody. You can't show weakness like that is, you know, showing asking for help is a sign of weakness kind of thing. And so I think even when you want to be vulnerable. It takes a lot, and there's a lot of kind of unlearning and rewiring that has to be done for you to actually allow somebody to see who you are, because I think so many of us just don't want to acknowledge that we have flaws, that we're not perfect, that there are things wrong in our lives, and so I think it is only in safe spaces, right like spaces where you don't feel like people will judge you or think that you're weird for having some kind of issue, those are the spaces where you can kind of take those masks off, you can take some of those layers of armor off, and really allow people to see you. And I think one of the things that I am most often working with clients and just greater conversations in the therapy for black girls community is about doing more, asking for help. I think that so many of us are the strong friend. We are the reliable, responsible person in so many other people's lives, like we are the one that everybody is coming to, but we don't typically have those people in our lives who we are going to but that doesn't mean that those people don't exist. I think many of us just don't take the opportunity to even ask for help, because we are seen as the one who is the responsible one. And so I talk a lot about allowing people to show up for you in the same way that you show up for so many other people. And I think it is just a muscle that we have to practice, right? It's just like any other skill that you learn is doing more, asking for help.

Robin l Dr. Joy, that is so great. I love that I it is a muscle. There's a belief system around that, like, I can do this, I'm capable, but no, like, it's just like, that's enough. It's like, like, we like, you know, in the book, you talk about the paradox of the rock, right? And how it's like they're and I think, like, I could see this in you. I can see me and so many of the women I'm surrounded by, we are the rocks, like we are strong, independent, like capable women.

Dr. Joy l Right

Robin l And but guess what, I still am. I'm a softy on the inside, like and I and I want help, and I need help. I don't want to do it all right.

Dr. Joy l Right. And it is such a lot, right. Because, because you can, you probably can do a lot

Robin l I can

Dr. Joy l And have to

Robin l I don't have to

Dr. Joy l Yes

Robin l And the older I get, like, we're close in age, like you and I are two years apart, the older I get, Joy, I'm like, I want help, and I am getting really good at asking for it, because I do so much for other people. And like, I can take, I can I can have like, 20 balls in the air, and we're good, but then I'm like, actually, I don't want to have 20 balls in the air. I would like you to take a couple. You take a couple. We're good, and I'm no longer ashamed of, like, really, just like, right, asking for help. It's just a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Dr. Joy l Yeah, yeah and I think the truth is that people want to step up for us, right?

Robin l Of course we do

Dr. Joy l Like, especially, you have been the one who's been there for a bunch of people, like, people want to have the opportunity to pay that back. But again, so many of us kind of get in our own way and kind of build these stories around ourselves where we don't even want to ask for it. So I think it is actually a very loving act to allow people to show up for you in the same way as you've shown up for them.

Robin l You give some great examples. I love this, okay, because we are used to saying to somebody, like, let's say somebody is going through a time of grief, or they're just having a hey, who knows? Whatever it is, it's just like, you can see that your sister needs some help, right? And they're going through, like, you want to be there for them, and too commonly, will be like, How can I help you? I'm here to help. How can I help? And you're like, that's not the right question. That's not the right approach, because I don't know even know where to start. Like, if I'm feeling overwhelmed and something's going, you know, haywire in my life, I'm not even up to even answering that question, because I'm just like, no, I can't give you any assistance on how to help me. So you give some really great examples of this in the book around like, I love that example you give on this woman who sent a text to her friend and said, I can't remember what it was that she was going through, but it was like, okay, I can, number one, I can leave a meal on your doorstep and go and go away. Okay. number two, I could pick up your kids from school and take them for ice cream. Number three, I can, I can pray for you, which I am doing anyways, and and then don't worry. And number four, none of the above, like, I love you, any, like you don't need to respond, yeah. And I just like giving those very tangible ways that you can and you want to help, and then that person, I'll have to say number two, please. And number the above, does it matter, right.

Dr. Joy l Mm, hmm, yeah. I think that that's so important to be able to give people tangible things that, like you could offer them, because we often, and I think it is well meaning, like there are well intentions, like, oh, let me know if you need anything, right? Like, I think many of us do want to be there if we know there's something we can do. But like you said, when people are overwhelmed, when they're grieving, when you know they are struggling with their mental health, they often don't know where to start. Like, they often feel overwhelmed by just making another decision. And so if you know this person well enough to be able to kind of Intuit what might they need right now, so is it likely they're not kind of feeding themselves? Like, can you go do some grocery shopping, or can you send over, you know, some of their food? If you know they are likely not, like taking care of laundry and those kinds of things. Can you offer to. over, wash a couple of loads of laundry, or go and do some drishes right?

Robin l Great examples like, something that would help so much

Dr. Joy l Very tangible things, exactly, exactly and again. Of course, this in, this in, uh, means that you have a close enough relationship where somebody would like, let you into their house to do their laundry, right, but,

Robin l Right

Dr. Joy l But, but if you do

Robin l Even like for instance, like, let's say you're not even that close. Let's just say you're like, okay, I can come and help clean your house. Or I can hire, I can hire a cleaning company my cleaner Instead of cleaning my house this week, they'll come and clean your house like that is a big, huge gift that it's like,

Dr. Joy l Yes

Robin l You know, right. I really like talking about things , I remeber

Dr. Joy l Take, take off of the list for people, right.

Robin l I remember when my twin brother died, and I you don't even, you don't even know where to start, but one of my closest friends like, what an angel on Earth, and she says, she she called me and she said, Robin, can I help you pick the hymns for the service? I'm thinking. I didn't even think about that,

Dr. Joy l Right

Robin l That's not on my to do list, but obviously it has to get done.

Dr. Joy l Right

Robin l I was like, Yes. Like, what an incredible gift. And what do you think happened? She chose hymns that we grew up listening to in church. Like, it's just like, What are the chances? Well, I mean, that's a gift. Like, just, it was invaluable. But I just, I'll never forget about that very real, tangible example of something that just was like a weight lifted off, like amongst all that heaviness, so beyond doing group therapy, if people don't have access to to this in their lives, or they just really don't have a sense of community or sisterhood in their lives, like how in an everyday setting, like, how are you encouraging or tools that people can like take into their own lives to actually cultivate even just one new friendship or one new connection that would bring right, bring that into their lives?

Dr. Joy l Yeah

Robin l What ideas do you have for that Dr, Joy?

Dr. Joy l So I think Robin that there are often people in the backgrounds of our lives who, with a little bit of effort, could move to the foreground, right? So maybe there is a mom that you see in the carpool line, and y'all kind of exchange pleasantries, but it doesn't go any further. Or maybe you sit next to somebody in your pilates class and, you know, again, you smile and say hi, but like, after you're done, everybody goes back to their cars. What would it be like for you to say, hey, would you like to grab a smoothie after pilates? Or, hey, would you like to get breakfast after we drop the kids off? And I think that that's hard for people, because nobody wants to be rejected, right? Like, what if they say, no, what if they think I'm weird, you know. And all of that is possible, but this is the, this is the case of, if there is no risk, there is no reward, And so

Robin l Right

Dr. Joy l Kind of pulling up your big girl pants and just putting yourself out there and saying, hey, would you like to do this thing? And I think it's also really important to make sure that you keep your expectations realistic. So this could be somebody who becomes a lifelong friend, or it could just be a nice smoothie, right? And so just go into it with being open and not expecting that this is going to be your new BFA.

Robin l I really like that. I was talking to Kirsten, my best friend, about this. We're like, okay, we're talking about, Okay, last five years our new friends, right? And how did these come about? Because I wanted to uncover that for her too. We she lives in Scotland. I live in Victoria, BC, I mean, we're on different sides of the planet, but I'm just like, okay, so how did, and she was talking about how she used to go into this place where it was like, house design place, and the owner of the store and her, because connected. And just like, we're very, very friendly, and like, just like she felt like good vibe, right, with this woman. And, you know, maybe by the third or fourth time going in the store she was like, do you want to go for a coffee one day? And the woman's like, yes. And now they meet almost on a weekly basis. They are just such good friends. So great example of like, this is somebody that you just that's an example, right?

Dr. Joy l Uh huh.

Robin l And I was thinking about when a women's store that I that I go to for my clothing, the owner same. I mean, I just like fell in love with her from the beginning, when I met her and I would and I said to her, I was like, Rebecca, can we please be friends? You know, what do I have to lose? I still love your clothes. If you say, no, you I'm still going to shop here. But anyway,

Dr. Joy l Right

Robin l Yes, Robin, I really want to be your friend. And she and I are, like, really close friends,

Dr. Joy l See

Robin l So what do you have to lose, right? I mean

Dr. Joy l Yeah you don't have anything to lose. You already didn't have this friendship. So if she says no, then you still don't have the friendship, right? And I think that there's a, there's a saying that a lot of people use here, um, called shoot your shot, right? So it's the idea

Robin l Shoot your shot

Dr. Joy l That you're like, oh, I really like this person's vibe, like you mentioned, right? Like you sometimes can just tell, like, I think we would be really good friends, or at least enjoy each other's company, right? And so there's nothing wrong with shooting your shot in a friendship way. I think we think about it romantically, right? Like you see somebody that's attractive, you want to slide them your number, but you can also do that with people that you think would be fun company, even platonically. And so I think more of us should take those risks when we feel like there's somebody who has, like a kindred spirit, and somebody we would enjoy spending some time with, just letting them know and seeing if there's an opportunity to grow a friendship,

Robin l Right. And I also think, Dr Joy in your book, you just like you just reinforce more around, and you just said it around the fact that there could be even a friendship or something in the foreground that you can become closer to, just by making the time reaching out. And when you are with that person, it is with more intentionality, like you're like an acquaintance or even a friend that you want to be closer to it's like holding space for that person, giving them your undivided attention, right, just being more in service to that friendship and right, and seeing how, how that will, that can help you in return. I know that's how it works,

Dr. Joy l Exactly

Robin l Where, how can people work more from you. Work work more with you and learn more from you, like, tell us what you're up to these days.

Dr. Joy l Yeah.

Robin l How people can follow you?

Dr. Joy l Yeah. So, as you mentioned, I would love for more people to read Sisterhood Heals, because I think that they are very timely conversations. I think I again, love that you have created space for this conversation, and I want more of us to really put more credence on the female friendships and the relationships that we have platonically with the women in our lives. So you can go to sisterhood heals.com, and learn more about the book. You can take a quiz to find out who you are in your friend circle, because I think that that's really important to think about the role that we play in our friend circle. So that I think it's a fun a fun opportunity, and then you can listen to more of the conversations that I mentioned before on the therapy for black girls podcast. So if you go to therapy for blackgirls.com, you'll be able to listen to the podcast, but also, we have a therapist directory for people who want to get connected to therapists right in their area. Though, there are lots of opportunities to get connected on our website as well.

Robin l I think that's, I think that's wonderful. I think that's, that's also something you've really brought to your community, which is not that's a resource that so many people can tap into, is finding, yes, a therapist in their area. Because, I mean, I love therapy, and if you can have access to it where you live, obviously that's, that's, that's great. Well, I want to thank you, Dr Joy, for the tremendous work you're doing. I mean, it's, it means, it means a lot. And I loved your book, and I thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Joy l Thank you, Robin. It was fun to chat with you.

Robin l I always, we always close our podcast with a blessing, and the blessing is based on your work and what I've learned from you this week. So may we heal together through our sisterhood, our friendships give us a safe space to be seen, heard and held, not to mention so much joy. I've just had so much joy with my friendships, that's for sure. May we be more vulnerable with people we feel safe around by sharing ourselves and the truths about who we are and our experiences, we can form authentic connections and cultivate new friendships, and may we use sisterhood to become the best possible versions of ourselves. And I think our friendships really enable us to do that, to grow and be the best versions of ourselves. So thank you, Dr Joy.

Dr. Joy l Thank you, Robin. Beautiful blessings.

Robin l Thank you so much for being here with us. Let's Talk Love is brought to you by Real Love Ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme. If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com for more resources and tools to boost your relational skills and get better at love. If this podcast has resonated with you, it would mean the world to us if you could take just 30 seconds to do these three things, follow or subscribe. Never miss an episode by hitting the follow or subscribe button wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether it's Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite app, this makes sure new episodes show up automatically for you, and it helps us get more visibility so more people can find our show. Leave a rating and review. Your feedback means everything to us. By leaving a five star rating and a thoughtful review, you're not only showing your support, but also helping others discover the podcast, share an episode that really spoke to you with someone in your life, whether it's a friend, partner or family member, your recommendation could just be what they need to hear. We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play. And encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded it and continue to steward the land that you live on as well many blessings and much love.