Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 9 Episode 10 with Julie Krafchik & Yue Xu | Transcript
29.05.25
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas and expert insights. Every week, our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships, and they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate, we tackle the big questions, not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host. Robin Ducharme, now Let's Talk Love. Today. I had the joy and pleasure of speaking with Julie Kratchick and Yue Xu. They are the hosts of the dateable podcast and the authors of their new book. It's called How to Be Dateable, and the very first page of the book defines dateable, the type of dater who stands out because they're able to show up authentically and take control of their love life with a level of growth, curiosity and vulnerability that makes them a desirable person to date. Enjoy our conversation and we'll get started.
Robin Ducharme | Hello everyone. Welcome to Let's Talk. Love. I'm so excited about this episode. Thank you so much for joining us today. On today's show, we're going to be talking about your newest book called How to Be dateable. I love this, so it's called The Essential Guide to Finding Your Person and Falling in Love.. And I thought maybe we would start just, please, talking more about your talking about your book, but also your podcast and how you both got started. You share it in your book, how this journey has taken you through a decade of learning more from the singles view and just through your old life, your own lives. You share a lot about your dating history and where are you at now. So let's just do a little bit of backtracking on how you got into the podcasting and where you at now,
Yue Xu l Julie and I have the ultimate love story. We were introduced by mutual friends over 10 years ago when I first moved to San Francisco, and the minute we met, we couldn't stop talking about dating, because it was kind of the beginning of dating apps, and we're like something's changing. Something's not the same here with dating, and it seems like everyone's a little lost, but excited lost, and it seems like everyone's trying to navigate what this new dating landscape looks like. So Julie and I decided that we were gonna do a podcast. I don't know if we intentionally called it a podcast. Back then, it was more like, let's invite our friends over and record their dating stories, and maybe we can help them solve some of their dating issues. And that's how I started. It was born out of my little studio apartment in San Francisco. We used to have in person guests, and now, a decade later, we do everything remote, but now we've expanded beyond dating stories. I mean, yes, who love who doesn't love a good dating story, but we really want to dive into what is changing about dating, and how can people feel like they have more agency over their love lives.
Robin Ducharme | Yes.
Julie Kratchick l And then Yue actually started on air with we had a male co host at the time who was a fellow dating coach. Both of them were dating coaches.
Robin Ducharme | Yes, Yue was a dating coach.
Julie Kratchick l Yeah, and I was not. I never thought I'd be in this industry. Although people say, like, what do you spend your time doing? I read a lot of dating books back in the day because I was very confused on dating, so maybe Yue came in with the attention of helping people, but I think I was like, I just want to learn. I want to figure out what is going on. And like, why can't I make something stick? Because I kind of was in that period where I go on date after date and none of them seemed to work out. And then when we started this, I had just come out of a breakup with the person I thought was the one. And then I learned the hard way that just because you have loved doesn't mean that that's a successful, you know, compatible partnership for the long haul. So I think that was a tough pill to swallow for me. So I was very much in student mode. And then over the 10 years of doing this, I completely changed how I dated, and looked at dating, looked at relationships, all of that from all the stories we've heard and all the experts we've talked to.
Robin | I think that's what your book really hones in on, is how there's so much focus on what is going on with the apps. And you said before, Julie, right, you read all the dating books, and all the dating books are the tips and tricks, or this is how you write your profile in the best way, and all that. And it's like, it can be consuming and overwhelming. It's like information overload, and it's focused on big that's the overall arching message in your book is focusing. On the wrong things.
Julie Kratchick l Yeah.
Robin | And it's like, how can you do the the stuff that you need to do within yourself to show up as the best, like best version of yourself, yourself authentically, and be dateable. How are you good and I think that's how to be dateable. I know actually mean, right, and I circled, like the very first page on the book. I love working with one of my best friends, Kirsten, because we both get to read the books. I listened and read the book, that's my favorite thing. Is listening to the audio, because I heard both of your voices, like we do on the podcast. And then you get to you have to have the book. You can like highlight and dog ear and all that. Right? So that's my favorite way to do it
Julie l An A plus student over here,
Robin | I love to dive in really the first page, I cirlcled it right. Dateable, the type of dater who stands out because they're able to show up authentically and take control of their love life. You say like you're to be the CEO of your love life. And I love like there's so many, so many gems in your book, with a level of growth, curiosity and vulnerability that makes you a desirable person to date. One of the other big things I got of this, we need to break up with bad dating habits.
Julie l Yes, there's been a great many for too long
Robin | Too long, too many rules. Like, we have to scrap all that crap, right?
Julie l Yeah.
Robin | Where do you want to start? Because I, like, first of all, I want to start with in the beginning, you talk about how we are in a love crisis. What does that mean? Because we are in a love crisis, right? There's more people single than ever, and they're not having sex. We're not having sex as much. Like, that's a that's a love crisis.
Julie l Yeah, we're feeling burnt out by dating. Yeah. Dating was such a privilege when it was a newer concept. It felt so fun to meet different people. I remember after graduating from college and just being feeling like, independent and be like, I'm gonna now go on all these dates, it was so fun, and it's like meant to be fun, because it's it's meant for you to connect with other humans, even if it doesn't lead to a romantic connection. But now it doesn't feel like a privilege anymore. We've treated like a burden, yes, and that's what the love crisis is. People think that dating is a chore that they don't want to participate in. In fact, many people are opting out of dating, which also means they're opting out of human connection, and that is what the this impending love crisis is, because if we keep headed down this road, then what are we doing? We're just not exercising all of the beautiful things that we have as a humanity.
Yue Xu l It's an interesting space we're into because dating has gotten very public. It used to be this private activity that you did. I mean, even thinking about like dating, online dating sites, right? Like batch.com, back in the day, you had a screen name. It was private, it was anonymous more, and now it's so public. We're talking about it with our friends. We're listening to podcasts about it, which there's so many positives on that right is that we're learning, we're gaining relational skills, things that maybe we just didn't know back then, it was like ignorance, but now it's like coming to the surface all positives, the downside, though, of it being so public is that there's a lot of like pressure to have a certain outcome, and I think that's where it's lost. Some of the magic of dating is that it feels like we need to have things progress and move along like in other parts of life. It's all like achievement focused, and we view dating the same way. And the reality is that you can be intentional about what you're looking for, but not as attached to the outcome on every single instance. And that can make dating a lot, lot more enjoyable.
Robin | Yeah, it's taking the It's, um, there's so many things, right? It's like you have to prioritize something that's something that's really important to you in life. And if it's dating, if it's if it's finding your partner, or whatever, you know, you get clear. Like, there's a lot of things you want to get clear on what hat you actually want out of dating? Are you wanting? You know? Are you just wanting to, like, learn more about yourself and and just have a companion, or for more, like just so you're clear, you're clear, okay? Or you want a long term partnership, whatever it is, get clear. But also, if you really do want that, then how, what are you going to do about it, taking more accountability and more responsibility for that way, that way you want to prioritize it in your life, so not giving up. That's really important, right? Like that, like you said, there's a lot of people that are like, I've got friends that are like, I'm just giving up on online dating. I'm not doing anymore. I'm like, Oh no, that is that's not the answer. Like your or I'm just taking I'm going to take a sabbatical. I'm going to take like, a six month break. I get it, but then again, do you really want to partner? Yes. Okay, then if you're not going to be online dating, that's okay. But. Then what else you're going to do?
Julie l Yes
Robin | In place to go towards your goal, right? It's like with your on you don't have a job, and you're needing to have a job. Well, then guess what? You are doing everything in your power to get that job right.
Yue Xu l Think what's hard though about dating is that, like even using the job analogy, you would go out, you would put all these resumes out, you would just do, do, do, but dating is kind of that one area in life that putting in the 10,000 hours doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to result in the outcome you're looking for. And I think that's very hard for people. I know it's very hard for me. I was like,
Robin | Yeah
Yue l I knew I was an achiever in my education, in my occupation, but like the what I applied to dating, it backfired a lot of the times, because it was so counter to how connection is actually formed. And I think we see a lot of people struggle here is like, I'm giving all this time to something and I'm not getting results. I might as well just give up. This isn't worth it.
Robin | So at the start of the book, you're inviting people to take your dating archetype quiz. So tell us about that and just Well, let's go quickly through the archetypes, yes and why, and really, what those what those are, right? It's like we're breaking up with a bad dating mentalities, right? It's a lot of lot to do with how we think about dating and then how we're acting when we're on our dates, right?
Yue l People have really fallen fall in love with the dating archetype quiz because it gives you information about who you are as a dater, which includes your patterns of behavior and your attitude towards dating. And what's so beautiful about the archetypes is that will highlight your strengths, kind of like your superpowers, and then what may be getting in your way. It's always good to know, because we have a combination of both. And for most people, they'll probably see a few archetypes in the way they date. And for some maybe it's just like one really dominant one. I have very dominant one. Mine's Maverick, and the Maverick is someone who's very independent, who's very confident in themselves, has a strong sense of self, but what tends to get in my way is I have a hard time being vulnerable and letting people in ever a hard time being a team player, because it's about me, me, me, protecting my space, my identity, my independence, that whoa, if someone else comes into my space, it feels like a threat, so then I run away when I feel threatened by that. So that's a maverick. But Julie has a combo, which is, like a very interesting combo.
Julie l Yeah and there's a lot of people that have combos, and I love seeing how the combos play out. Because for me, I'm like, oh my God, this explains what I was doing in dating for so many years, but I am an achiever and dreamer. So the achiever is kind of like what we're talking about, of you know, you know what you want. You're not afraid to go after it serves you very well in other parts of life, but sometimes you can get, you know, stuck on those milestones or progressing to the next date, even if maybe you don't even like the person. It feels like a sense of self that's being kind of worn down if you don't get to that next state. So with the dreamer, I was the person. I mean dreamers in general, there's so many great qualities that come with this. Is that you know you love, love. You wear your heart on your sleeve. You see the best in people, you can be an incredibly sensitive and wonderful partner to the right person. Where dreamers kind of get held back is sometimes you have rose colored vision here, and you live in your head, in the fantasy of what could be, instead of seeing the reality of what's happening, you hold on to that really great first date, even though the subsequent behavior has been anything but that. And you kind of get into that, like, you know, fantasy. So with the achiever dreamer, you can see how that's kind of the perfect storm of, I would stay with these people. I was, like the queen of situationships before situationships was even a name. I would stay with these people that, like, honestly, did not, were not worth my time because they were showing me they couldn't, they couldn't, like, be there for me and do be in the type of relationship I wanted. But I didn't want to give up. I wanted to change them. I want to prove that, like, I was worthy, because they decided to commit to me, which ended up being an uphill battle 99% of the time.
Robin | Right.
Yue l Did you take the quiz, Robin?
Robin | Yeah, I did. I am, I'm mixed. I'm just, I'm the dreamer and the achiever.
Yue l Yeah, okay, oh
Robin | Because I and both in my that's just me in my life, like just in dating, like I have this dreamer part of me that's just like, looking into their future, rose colored positivity, all like, I just, I always look at the glasses overflowing, yeah, my my mindset, right? And then I also, I'm like, perfectionist, achiever, work hard, you know it's like, you have it's, they almost are opposites, but they're they well, they are they go together, right?
Julie l Yeah. Could you tie it back to your dating life at all?
Robin | Oh yeah
Julie Kratchick
Okay how did that show up for you?
Robin | My dating I definitely had the rose i have the rose colored glasses. Like I would show up and be just looking for the good in that person and showing up very curious and like and but sometimes you would miss you're missing what they're telling you through their actions and their words.
Julie l Yes
Robin | That's something that I got caught up in, like, with a cup. I only dated a few men before I met my partner I'm with, but the one man I remember I was, he was kind of showing me with his actions, for sure, that he wasn't invested in in me at all, but, but I was, like, just going for it. Like, no looking for the good, like seeing like, actually, he's an achiever. He's he's working hard. He's got the financial security, you know, the list, sometimes it's really prevalent back there. Yes, it led and but he was, and we only dated three, only on three dates. But by the third, actually the fourth date, I went on with I went with him, and he actually, and I was just thinking, this is going well, even though I was chasing
Julie l Yeah
Robin | That's the dreamer in me.
Julie l Yep.
Robin | On the fourth date we actually had, I thought the date was going great, like sitting in this Italian restaurant, and he says to me directly, like, half an hour to the date, he's like, you know what, Robin, I just want you to know, like, I think you're awesome, but I'm just not physically attracted to you, like you said this right to my face. I was like, alrighty. Then, like, holy shit. Like
Yue l On the fourth date?
Robin | Yeah, he just said it directly to my and I was just like, well, thank you for telling me.
Yue l Yeah
Robin | I'm gonna go now.
Yue l Yeah.
Robin | And I just stood up and walked out like, you know, I yeah, that was that.
Julie l You can't make a story anymore. Wow with that one. I mean, I had times like that too, where it was like, I do not want a girlfriend. I'm like, I needed that blunt because, yeah, like, what you said, there's so many positives of that, though, and I think that's with our book is like, you know, we didn't want to be a self help book telling people rules they needed to do and things they needed to change, everyone is inherently dateable just the way they are. But I think we have to look at ourselves and being like, what's actually adding to my experience versus not like your instance of, okay, I was, I had a totally different vision of what was happening in this situation. I don't want to be with someone that doesn't think I'm attractive.
Robin | Yeah and talk about you talk about rejection. I love your ways that you it's like you're getting people primed to adapt to rejection. Because we're going to be rejected in our lives all the time, like just every day, but we but when it comes to dating, we take it so personally. And I remember when I walked out of the restaurant, like, I was just like, I called one of my best friends. I was like, you're not even gonna believe what just happened. And I like, walking back to my condos, like, that was crazy, but also awesome. But it was all like, I would just, you know, in shock, kind of, yeah, why did he did it very directly. Because I was like, why would I waste my time anymore with time anymore with somebody that does not physically it was also like, I'm totally rejected. It feels like shit, but I'm also happy that it happened like it was just this weird mix of things, right? Well, you know what?
Yue l We are just so sensitive now to rejection, like, look at YouTube, right? When YouTube first rolled out, they had the dislike counter on videos, so you can thumbs up, thumbs down, and they will actually count how many people dislike your video. People got so so riled up because of this, because they felt so like hurt by seeing their dislike counter that they actually took the counter away so now you can still dislike but it won't tell you how many people dislike your video and but what is interesting about this is YouTube have this, you know, this dislike counter, just so they can show the your content to the right people, and that's how dating is. You want to be presented to the right people who actually want to stay and watch your content, and the people who dislike your content, they can move away, because then they're just going to waste their time on something that's not of interest to them. So in theory, it all makes sense. But to us, we see it as rejection when it actually is just redirecting people towards the content that's right for them. In dating, we're just redirecting ourselves to the right people who are a good fit for us.
Robin | We get it too. It's like dating is it is personal? You're asking someone to love you at the end of the day. And we don't want to, like, minimize that, because there is something there. But we do kind of need to recognize that, like, 99% of the people aren't going to be matches. Right?
Julie l And that's a good thing, because, like, your story, Robin, it freed you up to meet the right person instead of staying with this person that didn't value you. That's not a good situation for anyone. And one of our other archetypes is the thinker. This is one that we see a lot of people getting. Probably also the thinker is more drawn to quizzes and assessments as well.
Yue l Yeah.
Julie l But the thinker is, you know, the type of person that is adds so much to a partnership, because they see different perspectives. They're great problem solvers. They're thinking they're going being intentional. And, you know, leading with their mind where the thinker gets into trouble is the overthinking, the analysis paralysis, this fear of rejection and not wanting to take chances. And we're seeing this more and more, whether you have dominant thinker tendencies or even just in general, with rejection, is people are afraid to put themselves out there. And it's what we call relationship chicken. It's like that game of chicken that you're like, I don't want to be the one to say I like you first. I don't want to show my cards and say I want to be in a relationship, but all this is doing is putting us at a standstill again, that nothing is happening, and dating, which is part of this love crisis, that people feel defeated because they're not seeing results.
Robin | There's a lot around the relationship chicken. And bottom line is we have to stop playing games with in our love lives. It's just, it's over like, it's like, if you really want to find some if that's what you're like, you just have to be you have to be honest and vulnerable and just like, straight up. And you don't have to be, it doesn't have to come across. It's just being. It's just being as you would be with your friends, right? You want to give people common like the kindness and the decency and and you want that in return. So it's like, how are you going to show up? Like, if you want, if you leave a date, like you said, and you actually had a great time, you can text that person and be like, I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much.
Yue l Yeah, yes
Robin | Like, I love what you said about your whatever, Ricky, you get kind of replays something you talked about. And I would love it if we could chat again. What do you think? And you're you're asked, you know, you're obviously appreciating the conversation you had. And you're like, asking for a date, a second date, and if the person says no, then thank you, move on.
Yue l Yeah.
Robin | Well, this is chicken going on.
Julie l Too much chicken.
Yue l We'll take some beef. No, we need to reset why we date in the first place.
Robin | Right
Yue l When we first started dating, it was all about finding the right person. But then somewhere along the dating apps that came in and having more options, it became a validation tool. So the purpose of dating shifted from I'm looking for my person to I want to get as many people to like me as possible. This is what we call the validation trap, something else we need to unlearn. But that's where the game playing comes into play. Think about it. We do all these games. Why not because we like the person. We just want them to like us back. It's for the validation. But then we forget, do I even like this person? We ask this a lot to a lot of our listeners come in with these questions, like, how do you feel about this person? And you know the answer, we usually get back. I'm not sure. I'm undecided right now. But why are you playing all these games? What's the point? Oh, because I want to make sure that we get to a second date, or we get to a third date, or I we DTR, or we get, we get more commitment from this relationship. But why? Oh, because I want to win. I want to win that next round
Robin | It turns into a it turns into a piece of validation and competition against yourself, really.
Julie l Yeah. Not always so visible, I think, like I was, fell victim to the validation trap for years, but I would never have called it validation that I was seeking. But it was all rooted in I needed to compare myself to my friends, and if they had partners, I also needed one. And is that really about the other person at the end of the day, it's about proving myself. And I think that's where a lot of people fall into again, because dating is so public, it's so out there, your friends are asking you about it all the time. And I remember getting to the point of like, I don't even want to tell my friends about this date, because then if they ghost me, then it's like a reflection of me that I did something wrong. And it's not at all.
Robin | It's not, you know, there just so many reminders in the book around, you know, you have to go in just, it's just these expectations are so heavy, they are on the dates, and actually, you're meeting a perfect stranger, even though a lot of times we think, oh, we're not, because we know this person from the app. No, you don't.
Julie l You don't
Robin | You're seeing pictures of a stranger that you're, you know, you're whatever they wrote. Maybe it's true. Maybe it's not. You're actually not going to know anything until you're face to face with that person, getting, you know, their energy, all that stuff that you know we don't really talk a lot about which is so important, how we can get reads on people, just from, like, being physically with them, right? Yeah, information we have to really pay attention to, but really you just giving, just changing your mindset, be like, okay, I'm going to go in and spend an hour with a perfect stranger. Let's see how this goes, and I'm going to show up as my best self, kind. caring, curious, not I like, I love how, the fact I love this, or you're, like, you wouldn't ask, like, a new friend, all right, so tell me about what school you went to, what, what job do you have? Like, you're, we gotta get rid of the dating interview. Or what did you call it?
Julie l Daterview Yes, those are the worst dates.
Robin | Oh, my God. Like, I love, this is what we do
Julie l Yeah
Robin | It's just so it's out it's common, like, you're actually interviewing, interviewing somebody,
Julie l And that's why it's not fun anymore. You've lost that magic when you're on a date interview, right?
Robin | But really, like, we're actually giving way too much power away, too like, thinking,
Yue l Yes
Robin | You know this person before you even met them in person, even if your texting was really good for a couple days beforehand, it's like, well, you don't, you still don't know that. They're just, there a stranger.
Yue l Yeah. I mean, if we started a friendship over text, I don't know if you consider that a friend, it'd be like, oh, just texting this person. We're gonna meet up one day. I would never be like, oh, that's a friend. But somehow, especially with younger generations, we see this now. They have purely texting relationships. They don't even meet a person.
Robin | Oh my gosh yes
Yue l That's a romance. That is a connection, and it's very sad, because you don't get that person to person energy bubble that you would get when you are you know, IRL IRL. So that's what we're hoping people will do after they read our book is to feel empowered to know that you are not trying to assess anybody over these dating apps or just reading someone's profile. You're just doing a meet and greet when you meet up with them.
Julie l So this might sound weird coming from dating experts, but what we learned in the last like 10 years is actually you don't need to be good at dating, and the reason is because it's so counter of how we have connections. And, you know, a lot of it is actually rooted in disconnection when you're playing games or you're withholding because you don't want to be the one to do things first. And we actually, I'm thinking of this client that Yue and I had, and this kind of tie you back to, like, the acting like you would with friends, because for I don't know, months we talked to him as, like, on coaching calls, and it just felt very stiff and, you know, hard to connect in general. And we're like, what energy is he bringing on dates? Yeah, and then one day
Robin | If he's bringing he's coming this way the coaching, how is he showing up on dates?
Julie l Yeah. And then when he one day, we get into the call, and his friend is there, and it's a totally different person. He is laughing. He is, you know, funny. He's himself. He feels at ease. And we were like, bring this person to a date. Where is this person? And I felt like this too for years, like, I remember one of my best friends just being like, I don't get it, like, you're social, you have no problem making friends. Like, why is dating so challenging? And it was because I was bringing, like, this date version of myself there. I was doing dating the way I thought you had to date. And we see a lot of people do this because they want a blueprint. They want to, you know, get it right. But the reality is, actually bringing yourself is getting it right. And you know this person, we're so happy that he's like, now in a wonderful relationship, like, once he dropped that, like, facade
Robin | Mask
Julie l Yeah,
Robin | Yeah. I really like, I really like, what you said there. I I was, I have to say, before I met Hector on those dates with the two other men that I met, I was myself. I'm just like, I had this mindset that I am a good catch and so much that I'm going to bring to a partnership. Yeah, and, and I just really wanted to show up being like, kay, this could be a new friend, maybe not. Oh, maybe it could be a partner, maybe not. But like, I'm just gonna, it's just a coffee or just a walk, and it's just like showing up with that energy of just like, comfortable in my skin and just being curious with the person in front of me. What else can you know like, that's all. It's just, it just takes a lot of pressure off. It didn't feel pressure.
Yue l The burnt out comes from us being inauthentic. That's why people feel burnt out. That's why we were in a love crisis, right? And when you're trying to be something you're not, that's tiring. I went by a different name for the first two years of my career, because I it's a long story, but there was a lot of name discrimination, name discrimination back then. And I went in applying to a job with a different name, Dalia, and I got hired with that name, Dalia, I had to go by a different name for two years. It was the most exhausting thing of my life
Because your like, oh my god, who's Dalia?
Hi, yes. Uh, yeah. So sometimes I use this Chinese name. It's weird, yeah. So I didn't make up all these big, big stories about my life, but I but my friend recently was like, Yue a I'm giving up on dating. I'm taking a dating sabbaticals to tiring. And I said, tell me specifically what is tiring about dating. She said, every date feels like I'm putting on a play. And I was like, bingo, that's exactly it. She's putting on clothes she would never normally wear. She's putting on makeup like she's going on stage. When she gets to the date, she feels like the spotlight's on her. Does she remember her lines? Is she performing in a role that she was she was casted? She feels like every date is a production. And I said back to her, that's exactly what is wearing you out. It's not the people you're dating. It's the way your attitude towards dating that's so performative, that's so counter authenticity. And it's never about connection.
Robin | You're right. That's exhausting.
Julie l I'm exhausted just thinking about it, but I think a lot of people fall into this, and I loved your mentality. Robin of like, I'm a catch. I know what I offer, but I think it's easy for us to not necessarily see that, especially if Dating isn't going our way. And we see very confident people in all parts of life lose that in dating, and we want to bring them back for that. We want people to be in that mentality because they are a catch. But it's easy to go into like that dark hole again, especially when there's so much pressure with dating and our society tells us that we're good if we're coupled up and we're bad if we're single like we need to change a lot of these narratives and then also unlearn these behaviors of how we're supposed to, quote, unquote act on dates like Yue's friend, you know, performing and being this version of herself that isn't even herself when she got into a relationship. I think that's really what we're trying to preach, too. Is like you don't want to have a surprise once you're in the relationship, so if someone isn't right for you. When you're dating and they don't like you, scare them away. It's okay. It's better to scare them away earlier by being yourself and realizing they're not right for you than going months and months down the line where you're like, I don't know, wearing all this makeup or performing in a way that's completely exhausting.
Robin | So can you tell tell us about your personal stories, because you're both in relationships. Are you still in happy relationships?
Julie l Yes, very much
Robin | So can you, and you do, share your personal stories on how you were dating relationships before, the ones you're in now, can you share a little bit about that, please? Because I think it's just really teaches us a lot on your experience and what you learned and how you changed.
Yue l Happy to, so the experience, the learnings, come from us, not just the relationships, right? So it's always about like our own journeys, and whether you're single or in a relationship, you're constantly learning. And in the middle of writing our book, I found out my partner of five years was cheating. So we were like, huh, this is interesting, writing a dating book, and this relationship is falling apart. It freaked me out for a second, but I think then we were like, oh, let's just apply all the principles of this book to this breakup, which is putting you in the driver's seat. If you're the CEO of your love life, what do you keep and what do you fire? And then also, what is your dating why have a vision for why you're dating in the first place and understand that this relationship no longer fits that vision. And it completely helped me not only get over this relationship, but to find love again just about five months later, and it wasn't about, it wasn't about like, oh, I need to get over this thing. Like I wasn't about getting myself back or getting my groove back. It was none of that. It was about, I still have this vision. I'm still aligned to that vision, and whatever is not in my along the ride for this journey, then they can go away, they can leave, but someone is willing to come along for the ride, and someone did, and whether that person came along or not, that's not the point of the story. The point of the story is, if you're intentional, and then we go even as far as saying if you have this conscious dating mindset, then you are never losing you're never losing time, you're never losing energy, you're never losing people. You are just staying on track to attract what's right for you.
Julie l And I know it's about you but as your friend, I will say your partner is like so much more better aligned for you and like, the the version of you that comes out with your current partner is so much more authentic than even in the past. So I think, like, as a friend, you love seeing that, because it really just shows that, like, the shift of, okay, I'm really going to be dating with myself at the forefront and find the right person for me. So everything happens for a reason, too. You took something terrible and came back, yeah. I mean, I think for me, I was, like I mentioned earlier, the queen of situation chips. I had a slew of these people that I over romanticized, thought it was more than it was. And then I finally met someone that was reciprocal, but it was very clear that he wasn't really there for, like, the type of relationship that I ultimately wanted, but this was an on again, off again relationship for many years that was very difficult for me to break out of, because the love was there, but it was not what I ultimately wanted. It was not meeting my needs, and I think I repressed a lot of needs. I was not forthcoming with them because I didn't know how to voice my needs in a relationship. And I think I thought like it would just it would end if I did, which honestly now looking back, it would have actually been good if it ended earlier, if I had been upfront. But back then, I was not in that position. Over the years of doing this podcast, I completely shifted that, and I really started to put myself at the forefront and be like again. That scared them away mentality of like, if it's the wrong person and they don't like, you know what I'm putting out there, they're not for me. And it took years to get to there, to get to that confidence. And I think that's why I'm, like, very sympathetic for people that aren't fully there yet, because it was definitely a journey. And I remember the last time I was dating before I met my fiance, was that during COVID, and I remember having this freak out moment at the start of COVID, just being like, oh my god, I'm gonna be all by myself alone for two whole weeks. Of course, back then he thought it was two weeks, so that it became like years. But after like that 15 minute freak out, I was like, if this is what single is, it's not that bad. I'm happy with my life. I have people that care about me. I have passions that I'm pursuing like I'm good. And I think that shift of wanting someone but not needing them was instrumental, because then again, I started date with my needs at the forefront. And when I was dating, I was able to be like, okay, this person isn't prioritizing me, instead of making excuses for them, or sticking around and hoping things changed. I was able to cut it off, and then eventually meet my partner, who was now my fiance, and at the he just showed up so consistently for me. And honestly, I think taking the time to really get intentional of like, what is my dating why? What is my north star that I'm going after, which we do talk about in our book, too. And I was able to know that when I saw it, so when I met him, I could recognize a good thing.
Robin | I love that. So how do you help people you talk about in the book it's like about gaining clarity on your dating why and your north star? So, what are, what are those two principles? How do we, how do we help people with that, right?
Yue l It's why you're dating in the first place, which most people cannot answer
Julie l Other than they answer like to be in a relationship or
Yue l To not be alone.
Julie l Yeah right, yeah.
Yue l And the dating north star is, what is this vision you have? You would never build a company without a vision. So why would we build a relationship without one knowing which direction you're going, but starting with a dating why? For a lot of people, is the hardest, and we have them ask this a few times. Why? Why are you dating? Okay? But why? Okay? But why?
Robin | Right
Yue l Because that's what gets to the core of why you're doing this. It's not about getting in a relationship. It's not about curing loneliness. For me, my dating why is I want to know how much love I can give to people. I want to know what is my capacity for love? That's my why. How wild is that? If I had said
Robin l That is wild, that is wild
Yue l If I said that when I was 22 I'd be like, no, I want to have I want to eat like I want to eat good food. I want to get drinks like I want to have a good time. That's what I'm dating. Yeah. Maybe that was my why at 22 at 44 yeah, my why is like, what is my capacity for love?
Julie l And then mine was more around, like building a life with someone, and what we do with our the dating why to get to the north star the dating why, plus your three top core needs. We're not saying that you only have three deeds, but for simplicity sake, let's, let's narrow it down. So for me, was building a life with someone, and then I realized I my core needs were to feel secure, to feel prioritized, and, you know, other ones that maybe were more related to, just like actually enjoying the person and seeing them and being seen for who I am. So from that, if someone wasn't showing up, they weren't making the plan, you can easily be like, okay, this person is not prioritizing this. Maybe they're not looking to build a life, or you open up the convo with them and see where they're at with it. But if someone can't meet the bare minimum of your dating north star. It doesn't matter what other credentials they have, like they could have gone to, like, the best college ever. Who cares? Like, if they can't show up for you in like, the bare basics of being in a relationship.
Robin | Right. Oh my gosh, I love that. And then you've got your perfect partner equation, the factors that help determine who you would, who would make an ideal partner for you. And this is just so common, right? That people have their list, and it's like, what's on your list, but that's not necessary. That's not going to be like, what gonna make somebody a good partner for you, which is all linked to your dating why and your north star.
Yue l I'm curious, so what's your dating why Robin?
Robin | You know, I have a mixture of what both of you just said. I really do, because I have just so like, it's all about love for me in my relationships. And I have so much love that I give, and I my dating, my my relationship why is like, I want to have a partner that is just so fully giving that back in his own way and and I'm so like, and I know that I'm with the right person now, because, like, he is such a giver. I needed a giver, and I finally have one like, and I, you know, it was just always imbalanced. In my past relationships, I was with takers, not, not, you know, the last one was absolutely taker, and it just felt so off.
Yue l So here's the question.
Robin | Kept giving, kept giving more and more and thinking more love is gonna fix the situation. No, that's not how it works.
Yue l Here's the unlock people need to understand in this is when you first started dating a giver, was that a little bit uncomfortable for you because it was so different?
Robin | I definitely had anxiety that was like bubbling up in the beginning, you know. And I don't know if it was because so many things, but it was like we're alike in the way that we operate in life. It's like he's got really solid boundaries, right. And so do I. And it's like you're trying to figure out somebody you don't know them. In the beginning, you're like, oh, how does this work right? And then I would be directly asking him, and he's, I don't know how to answer this question. I don't I don't know if it was so much uncomfortableness around his giving as much as I was questioning. Yeah, maybe it was my rumination going, Is this actually for real? Is he for real? Am I getting kind of joked here, or is this is he actually, really, authentically, exactly good? That's what it is. Maybe Yue, right?
Yue l I think that's the tipping point for a lot of people, because when you spend years dating the wrong type of person for you, when the right person comes along, you have to be able to recognize it. And many people don't. They recognize it as anxiety. They recognize it as love bombing, or they put all these name terms around it because it feels too good to be true, or it feels uncomfortable for them. So for anybody going through this, lean into it because it means that you're dating a different type of person who may be much better for you.
Julie l Yeah, and the perfect partner equation can help you recognize the right person and be like, oh, actually, these are the qualities I'm looking for. And we have three parts of this equation. The first part is fundamentals. And really what this is is shifting the list into the traits to how does it relate to you in the partnership? So I think we hear a lot of people, and you probably see this too, just the the list of all the qualities that they deem the best partner, and a lot of them are just like things that actually don't really indicate a partnership, like where they went to college, or their occupation or their height, like they're more like characteristics about the other person. So we're not saying okay, to abandon all the stuff that you think is important. But how do we expand it a bit? For instance, like, if you want someone that's well traveled, what does that actually mean to you? Is it that they're adventurous? Is it that they have the financial means to, like, take care of you? And you know, like, do these types of more luxury type of, you know, I guess I don't patience trips, yeah, like things that, like, aren't like, the bare basics, but like, we just say these generic things, or even, like, even like things that are, like, emotionally available.
Robin | What does that mean? How many people say they want an emotionally available person always, yes, I was talking to my friend Catherine yesterday about this. I'm like, this is what people say. And she's like, I don't even know what that means.
Julie l No nobody does
Robin | Like, I'm like, well, everybody says I'm my age. We say we want nobody. What does that mean?
Yue l We're high EQ. It's like, okay, you know also you can have high EQ. It's. Some ways and not the other. Like, I think
Julie l Still being an ass
Yue l Yeah.
Robin | But also just like to be emotionally available? Like, we actually don't, we can't even explain it. What does it mean?
Julie l Like, is that someone that's communicative to you? Like, what does that mean to you? And so that's like, step one is the fundamentals, and they can think the key part is in a relationship with you, like, who cares about their resume if you're not iterate like they're not acting a way that works in a relationship? So that's one piece. The next is the feelings we really need to tap into our body. We actually had Connor Beaton, who, I believe, like you've had as well. Yeah, he's amazing, and we had him on our podcast, and it was actually when I was in this conundrum, before I met my partner, and he was like, okay, like, let's take this back. I was like, asking, oh, is this person emotionally available? This is really going full circle here. But I was like, Is this sign that he's not emotionally available? He's like, let's step back and step into your body for a second. How do you feel around this person? And I'm like, I feel anxious. I do not feel, you know, safe. And again, that's to my north stars. The this is not how I want to feel around someone, and that gave me permission to be like, this actually isn't the right person. I need to let them go. Instead of me thinking up, like, are they emotionally available or not. Who cares? They're not making me feel good, and that's more important. And so I think that's a big piece is, how do you feel in the in the presence, but also away from them? That's very telling. So that that's the third the second piece, the third piece, is the future. Are you aligned in the vision of what you're looking for? This doesn't mean that you need to have everything mapped out 100% of course, there's some things you'll figure out with a partner, but if one of you is going one way and the other is going the complete polar opposite, it's gonna make a very difficult relationship. So understanding where are the areas that you're like this is a must for me in making sure someone is aligned early on. We hear people ask, like, how early is too early to ask what they're looking for? We say earlier is better
Robin | Right away why not the first date because
Julie l Yeah
Robin | How would you let's, let's talk about this because I was actually saying it on my dating profile, like, right and right in the word, like, I just said,
Yue l What did you write?
Robin | I wrote, I'm looking for like, I think I even said, like, big love. I'm looking for deep, lasting, long love, lasting partnership. And, you know, and I said, I'm a mother, I'm looking for a person that, you know, in like, that is so invested in his family, his relationships, in his family, and his friendships, like just saying, like, that's these are things that are, like, the core important values of mine, that I need a partner to be aligned with.
Julie l I like that. That's really, that's really great. Because I think the question for a lot of women is, do I say I must have kids? Like, I'm looking for someone to have kids with and write that in their profile? You're saying it in a way that's like, I'm looking for someone who's invested in a family, who,
Robin | Right
Julie l Does prioritize a family. It's a different way of saying wanting kids or having kids, but that could be an aligned vision with someone who does want kids, right? So that's that's a great way to put it.
Robin | Well I have children, and it's like, pretty much saying, like, if you're not okay with dating somebody with, yeah, I'm not your girl. Like, I've got three kids. It's just my life. And it's just like, I'm, I'm happy with that, right? Like, so how else would you say it on a first date? Right?
Julie l I mean, I think you should put that out there if, even if you, like, are single and want children, and that's like a must for you put it out there, because, yeah, like, if someone really doesn't want it, then you're just filtering people out. So I think there's nothing wrong about stating what you're looking for and asking what the other person is looking for early on is actually a good way to do it, because it's less about the two of you and more their mindset. The one caveat that I will put out there is that, like, people will only say what they want to say and what they think you want to hear. Sometimes it's not just words that are important. So we hear people asking all the time of like, do they want? Like, ask them, oh, well, they said they wanted a long term relationship at the beginning, but now they're not acting that way, and like, staying on to that. So I think that's like, it's not a bad thing to ask. But I would also just like, know how much weight it really has. Like, it doesn't necessarily mean that you know this person is gonna show up in a way that's the right relationship for you, even if they want it. So I would much rather ask questions that are more about, like, how do they spend their time currently, do they have room to incorporate someone else who were like the important people in their lives? And how do they value relationships overall? So to me, those types of those types of questions, are actually more important even I mean, not that you don't ask, are you looking for a long term relationship? But take it for what it is, and ask the subsiquent ones to see is this, even though, type of long term relationship that would work for me?
Robin | Right. And what it comes down to is just really how when you are dating this person, how are they, how are they behaving, how are they acting, how are they speaking? How are they treating other people while you are, you know, walking around the world together. Like you wouldn't know any of this unless you actually are in real life dating these and you have to. The other thing you keep reminding us as the readers is like, you really have to give people time to show themselves. And that's true for you too. It's like for us, it's like it took and I me myself and I I'm like, that future, like jumper. It's like, no no, Robin, you need. And my partner keeps reminding me this in my day to day life, it's like, be more present. Yeah, we're not here to, like, talk about the what ifs all. It's like, we need to be more in and it takes time to get to know someone and actually see through different circumstances and things that happen in life, how they relate, and how you relate, how you communicate.
Yue l And I like I like that you brought this up because this has been a shift for me. I used to think that you want to be in a relationship with someone you know so well that you know you'll have a good relationship together. Actually, I've now changed my mind because my partner says something to me a few months ago, and it completely just made me this light bulb went off his because he said, I want to get to know you for a lifetime. I want to keep getting to know you for a lifetime. And I think that is the unlock for me is I want someone who's equally as curious to get to know me and allow me to grow more into my authentic self. And we also have to be very honest about the fact that we're always changing. Relationships are always changing. People are always evolving. So who someone is today may not give you all the Intel for who they will be 10 years from now or 20 years from now, but you want a partner who's like, yeah, I'm signing up. I don't care what's down the line, I'm signing up to be open to getting to know you, getting to know our relationship, and working towards this aligned life together.
Robin | I just think that's so awesome. Like you are, you're saying to this person, I'm investing in you, I am here and giving each other, you know, you talk about validation in the book, as you know, there's a validation trap. But then on the other side, it's giving each other validation along the way, after the first date, second date, third date, even on our relationship, you know, it's been over a year, it's like we're constantly giving each other validation, like, I love you. You mean so much to me. I'm so grateful for you, that what you know, and you know, we can tease that out, but at the end of the day, validation is really important, and being present, yes.
Julie l There's definitely a lot of healthy validation of someone versus, like, putting your worth into someone's hands. And I'm glad that you were able to distinguish
Yue l Yes
Julie l Yeah. I think it also with the time, with even early dating, we were talking about questions that you can ask people, or, you know, ways that you can evaluate. I think it's staying curious there too, and not going in with that data view mentality of like, oh, they must answer a certain way, or they're out. Of course, if they answer in a way that totally shows that they are not aligned with what you're looking for, use that information, but a lot of times, like, the answer might not align 100% but be curious of why they're saying it, and let that curiosity build. We always hear people to ask, like, how many dates should I go on before I call it? We say, like, chase the curiosity, especially after a first date. People are inherently awkward, so unless terrible time, like, if you had a terrible time, or there's zero attraction, like cut your loss, like you don't need to keep dating this person and forcing something, but if something is there and you're just a little intrigued to get to know them more, keep going. Because that could really make the difference of meeting your person by giving them, like an extra date. Because people do reveal themselves.
Robin | You give, you give a few. There's, there's so many great stories of clients of yours and people you've talked to on the podcast. And I think it's just too I think it's common that people show up on the first date and they're just not themselves 100% or, like, nervous, and it's like, but if there's like, you know like you said, the chase, the curiosity, I love that, because who knows, like, and you could just even say to them at the end of the date there, you talk about the vulnerability piece. Okay, oh, the difference between over sharing, yeah, vulnerable in just other ways. Yeah, immediately after the first date, going like, I don't know. I sensed like you were kind of nervous. I don't
Julie l Oh yeah
Robin | I know I was too like I but I really would like to get to know you a little bit better. How do you what do you think about a second date?
Julie l Love that.
Robin | Then what's to lose?
Yue l So good
Julie l Nothing. There's nothing to lose. And if they say no, then again, rejection is just redirection.
Robin | Yeah
Julie l I'd rather not live with any what ifs and just put it out there.
Robin | Yeah. Well, I so enjoy talking to you. I can't find already been an hour. How fast it flew by. I said this at the beginning. Julia and Yue about your book. I read a book a week pretty much, and a lot of them are dating books. But this one, I'm telling you this, I'm going to pass this on to my friends because, oh, it's amazing. And we do the same. We interview experts from around the world around love and relationships. And you're, you know, you've got, there's so much wisdom in here that a lot of us can gain when you're looking for a partner and it's solid. It's just like, we need to change the way we date and how we look at dating, and make it more of an enjoyable, fun process. And hopefully, like, take some pressure off and just get real about it. And so you give so many ways on people, how people can do it and hopefully enjoy it during the process.
Julie l Thank you so much, Robin. We really appreciate that.
Robin | How to be Dateable, I hope everybody reads it and you can just contact me. I'll lend it to you, as long as you send it back.
Yue l Very nice of you.
Robin | Thank you both so much for for being on Let's Talk Love, and we'll see you on IG Live.
Julie l Thanks, Robin.
Yue l Thanks, Robin.
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