Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode 117 with Julie Menanno | Transcript
30.10.25
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Today, I had the joy of speaking with and learning from couples therapist author and educator Julie Menanno. Julie helps couples create lasting loving attachment, what she calls Secure Love. She helps people understand attachment, break negative cycles and build secure lasting relationships in an increasingly disconnected world, learning how to truly connect, communicate, feel seen in love matters now more than ever, enjoy.
Robin Ducharme | Hello everyone and welcome to Let's Talk Love Today. I am so excited about this conversation, Julie, I've got, Julie Menanno, you are a trailblazing therapist, author, educator, and you're gonna, we're gonna be talking today about attachment theory and actually your book, which, Julie, I so enjoyed learning from. You. Secure Love
Julie Menanno | Im's so glad, yes thank you. So glad to
Robin Ducharme | This is an incredible, incredible book.
Julie Menanno | Well, I appreciate you saying that that makes it all worth it.
Robin Ducharme | Yeah I am obviously, I talk to a lot of therapists and coaches, and we talk about love and relationships all the time. And I, what I so appreciate Julie is, you know, your your work is based on emotional focus therapy, right?
Julie Menanno | Yeah
Robin | And so it's like getting to the root of what really is, like our human need for security in our relationships. And I don't think we're really talking I mean, you've got a million followers, so there's a lot of people that are following your work, that are learning from you, but I really don't think that the majority of people really understand how important it is to for it to have the security in our relationships.
Julie | Absolutely it isn't, you know. And even if they do, kind of understand that conceptually, they don't really know what is, what are the moving parts to that? You know, what is that operationally, that's why I love attachment theory. I think it's the closest science has come to really explaining in detail and in workable parts how relationships thrive and how they fail, and when we can kind of start seeing it through that lens, it gives us a much clearer picture of what we need to do to start shifting things
Robin | Exactly. And so Julie, in your book, you you say that, you know, you wrote it in the way that you would lead people, lead couples through this journey, right? Because it is a journey. It's this is not just about the towels being left on the floor or that, you know, somebody coming home late from work and just like just wanting to relax rather than help out with the kids or like those this conflicts that seem to repeat, right? It's not about about just necessarily the argument itself. It's about what's underneath our human needs, understanding our attachment. Can you could you walk us through, like in your practice, when you're working with people, how you how you approach this so differently than other therapists?
Julie | Sure and then, you know, what I'm going to describe is, is, as you mentioned, Emotionally Focused Therapy for couples, which is very you know, those of us who practice it do so pretty consistently. As far as like what the process looks like, it's a pretty clear set of directions, for lack of better word. So what we do is we get the couple in, and we first help them understand what like give me an example of a fight, right? Give me an example of a fight that you just had about towels on the floor or where to put the keys, or a parenting issue. And what we're going to quickly realize is that fight keeps happening over and over and over again, the same fight it regardless of what the content is, because we're really working with unmet attachment needs. Underneath the surface, we're working with this really foundational piece of relationships, which is what needs to happen, what needs need to be met, for partners to feel safe and close to each other, and they need to be met consistently in the overall environment of the relationship as a kind of a felt sense. And they need to be met in moment to moment interactions. And if they go unmet in these interactions, it's probably going to create a rupture, and then we need to repair that rupture. And if what happens is, as couples get in these fights and early on in the relationship, they're fine, they love each other, and they're compatible, and all these wonderful things that never stop being true, right. But what happens is, is that they start having these fights, and then the unmet attachment needs start accumulating because they don't know how to avoid them in the way they're they're communicating around these topics, and they don't know how to repair them. And so if you're in an argument with your partner, and you're just, I mean, you've been dating for five months, you're having a great time. It's wonderful, and then, bam, some conflict comes, and then all of a sudden, now we're getting into some real feelings, and a partner isn't validating those feelings, and instead of really hearing you, they're saying, well you should see it differently, or, well, I'm not so bad. Or, well, maybe you should just break up with me. Or, you know, this is your because of your childhood. And so what that is, is it's emotional invalidation. That's just one unmet need, right? Well, what happens when someone feels emotionally invalidated, especially if they're sensitive to it because of the environment they grew up in, they're going to get upset, then they're going to protest back, and then, you know, the other person's going to not know what to do with that protest. They're going to feel overwhelmed. They're going to now have unmet attachment needs around that I'm not being heard, I'm not being understood, I'm not being appreciated here, because then, in their mind, they're just trying to make everything better, right. And so then they get locked into these patterns. And the pattern that I just described, protest defense, counter, blame more protest upset, blame deflection, getting logical, fighting about, you know, trying to convince each other, and then ultimately, kind of, bam, shut down. Now we're distant from each other till we come back, but that pattern will just keep going. Usually couples will have one or two predominant cycles. So this is good, because now we don't have to go through every single content and cure. How are you going to divide labor over the towels like I want partners to get to that point, but the way we're going to get to get to that point is by figuring out how to get them speaking to each other safely so attachment needs are being met. I'm being heard, I'm being understood, I'm being validated. I'm not just having my flaws presented to me without talking about what I'm getting right. I'm, you know, not having to worry that because I'm getting it wrong. You're just going to abandon me or see me as an a complete failure
Robin | Right
Julie | Now, there's a few more. There's not that many attachment needs. They're very like core of human, you know, the human existence kind of thing. All you know, we all need to feel safe and close to our partner, and they're pretty consistent ways to get there, from human to human. And so anyway, once we can start addressing that, that's the root, that's the root of the problem. Is what is getting in the way when you guys interact and communicate, of feeling safe and close? Because if enough is getting in the way, it's going to one, get in the way of you being able to resolve your problems, and then you'll just indefinitely fight over the same thing. And then two, it's going to get in the way of your feeling close to each other and connection,
Robin | Yes
Julie | But what I'm going to do, to kind of circle all this back, is I'm going to first help the couple see this, right. Just look, this is the pattern. This is the enemy. You guys aren't enemies, okay.
Robin | I think to Julie, that is so hard to we all know this, right, you love this person so much, but then you get into a disagreement or a conflict where you're just feeling like, I remember the last time I had a conflict with my partner, and I just was like, you're not hearing me. You're not seeing me. I need you to I'm not using the word validate, which, okay, now I've got the tools. I've got
Julie | Yes
Robin | But I'm like, I just need you to understand. You know you're thinking, I know you're not the enemy, but holy shit, like you're not getting it right. So it's just remembering. It's you say the enemy is a negative cycle. It's not your partner as much as you're just you're trying to just get to the same place. It's so we have to remember your partner is not the enemy. It's the negative cycle, right?
Julie | Yes, it's how your partner is trying to communicate with you about their unmet needs and emotional needs for safety. You know, needs for emotional safety and their communication, their ways that they're trying to reach you certainly can be the enemy. You know how they're trying to reach you and how they're trying to regulate their own emotions, absolutely. But that's not the person behind the behavior. So if we can get that behavior shifted, now we're going to get down to that person that you fell in love with, and the same is true in reverse. And then we have, you know, we also have self work to do, right. Because it's not just how are we communicating with each other, it's what's the unresolved stuff within each of us that's contributing to the way that we're communicating with each other. So we also have to get that stuff stabilized.
Robin | So when it comes to our attachment needs, I know that I'm an anxious I'm anxiously attached, but I would say that I'm, you know, I'm I say that because I know how I was in my childhood, and I believe I'm recognizing pretty well what my maladaptive behaviors were in the past. So I would say I'm secure. I'm a very pretty secure person. I don't know if we ever outgrow our attachment, but I think
Julie | Yeah
Robin | And my partner
Julie | We can heal. Yes
Robin | Yes. My partner, you know, he admits that he's avoidant. It's not even an admission. It's like he knows he's because of his experiences. He's he sways more towards avoidant. So in the first part of the book, Julie, you're helping people really recognize what your core needs are based on what you went what we all experienced, what we experienced in our childhood, is that the way to explain it?
Julie | You know, 99% of the time this stuff is going to go back to childhood. You know what's going to happen is you're going to sort of your, your relationship template is going to be set when you're, you know, very a concentrated relationship as a child and parent, you know, typically, and your brain is just forming rapidly. Your your neural pathways are just forming rapidly. This is going to kind of get wired into you. Don't worry, that's not a death sentence. You can unwire or you can't unwire, but you can replace it with new wiring. And then, you know, of course, as you grow, you can have societal influences coming in. And so what happens is, is that the attach your attachment style, is defined by the nature of your fears and relationships, plus the way you manage those fears, and so you're going to develop patterns around that early on now, then you get into adult relationships that are, you know, problematic also, and you don't know how to you and the partner don't know how to work through that, then your style is most likely going to be reinforced so those relationships aren't aren't going to make anything better at the very least, and will worsen them. Worst case scenario, you'll feel worse. You'll become more insecure, because now you have more reason to feel insecure.
Robin | So what we want to do is identify what our core attachment needs are based on our childhood. Is that right? That's the first thing we want to do.
Julie | It's based on just being human.
Robin | Yes
Julie | And then we need to go back and figure out what went unmet, what needs went unmet most of the time, and how did we learn to cope with those unmet needs? And how did we learn to manage connection based on those needs not being met? So how are we managing these fears, and how are we reaching for connection? And that is going to have a lot to do with the nature what needs were going unmet most of the time, and why you had to learn, you know, someone with an avoidant attachment, their emotional needs were not being met right very early on. And so what happens is, is they just had to, kind of without even thinking about it, learn to not have needs. Like if I don't have needs, I won't get hurt, I won't get let down, I won't get ignored, I won't get shamed, I won't get punished. So better not have them, better find other ways to feel connected. I'm going to be really successful. So I get approval. Approval feels like connect. It's better than no connection. You know, it's not real emotional, let's get to know each other kind of a thing, but it's at least a positive reflection. So a lot of people with avoidant, they're going to find activities to help them feel successful as a way to, you know, avoid the pain of their difficulty connection to whatever degree that is. And so we have to figure out, like, why did you have to learn to avoid your feelings? What was that all about? Right? And so now we got to get some words to that. We got to get some words to these fears. Nobody ever helped you understand this. Nobody ever saw you emotionally. And so now we have to figure out some new ways for you to deal with you know, first of all, we need to get you emotionally engaged, because you did not learn how. You couldn't it wasn't safe, so your body just did what it was supposed to do stay safe in this environment. Well, now you're in this relationship with this partner who has all these needs you don't know what to do because you don't even know what to do with your own needs. So I'm going to help you figure out how to get to your own needs and how to manage them and talk about them and help them and be with them. And that's going to help you connect with you and have more to share. And it's also going to help you know how to show up for your partner's needs, because you cannot do that until you know your own.
Robin | Right. Wow.
Julie | And feelings, not just needs feelings, it needs lead to feelings okay. So when needs are met, we feel good, and when needs are unmet, we feel bad, generally speaking. So when I say unmet needs, I'm also kind of attached to that is the emotional pain that stems from unmet needs and the emotional warmth and safety and goodness that stems from met needs
Robin | Right
Julie | So if we can get partners meeting, then they start to feel good,
Robin | Yes
Julie | And then they start to behave better. And the more they behave better, the more they meet each other's needs, and the more the needs are met, the and so it all just starts flowing. And, you know, feeding off of itself.
Robin | And what I've learned, and you do reinforce in your book, is just, I mean, it just, it takes, like, shifts. It takes practice. You're not going to be amazing at this from the beginning, right. But the more you are becoming more attuned to how you're feeling, and being able to communicate that in a way that's like, I think that's one of the hardest things I find. It's like, because I want to be I want to be careful. I want to be conscious of the words I'm using,
Julie | Yeah
Robin | Without blame, without and trying to, you know, you say, like, it's not just all about the I statements and using it's like, how you get way into what your needs are, right?
Julie | That is my biggest strength right there. If you were going to name my what I have to offer, more than anything else, it's how to get in there and figure out what is there to begin with, because you're right. There's no amount of words that you can use to talk about something you don't know about. You can try, and it's better than not trying. And sometimes in trying to formulate the words, you start to figure it out. I don't want to leave anybody not trying. It's better to try, as I've said 1000 times now, but it's we. We have to dive in there and figure out what's going on to begin with. That's why I do the podcast right there, because it's one thing to give people the instruction manual, but I work with a real couple for 20 sessions. I'm on season two right now, and I'm doing that work. I am helping them and the audience learn how to really get in there and figure out what's going on. And then we get, we get the words to share, right. What's happening in there.
Robin | Exactly.
Julie | Yeah.
Robin | So you say, as an anxious partner, you have a desperate need for love and reassurance.
Julie | Yes
Robin | Right. And so it comes to like, I know one of my core needs is prioritization. I want to feel like I am a priority. I didn't realize it that, you know, it's all this work I've been doing that you realize okay, and I and I want to feel validated, right. And so it's like, good for me, like, once you figure that out for yourself you can communicate that to your partner, right. Like, what would be ways that, like, even before there's a conflict. Do you recommend that Julie just to be like, okay, this is what I've discovered about myself sitting down with your partner saying, you know, this is the way it was when I was little, and this is how I behave then, and this is how I believe in our partnership this is what I need from you. How would you best? How would you recommend you communicate that to your to your partner?
Julie | Okay so first you're one you got, you're going to front load it, which is what I just said, you're going to talk about it when it's not being triggered, which is, this is a thing for me. My whole life. I felt like I was put on the back burner, and it hurt. It was so bad. And on top of the hurt, I didn't have words for the hurt. Nobody was there to help me with the hurt. I mean, wouldn't it have been nice if you could go to your mom and say, mom, I don't feel important right now. And your mom would say, oh my gosh. Okay, tell me more. Well, let's figure out what we can do to help you feel more important, or let me just comfort you. Whatever. My whole life, I longed to feel like number one, and I'm inviting you in to help me with that, because I chose you to be the one to help me with that, and I want you,
Robin | Oh Julie, that's good
Julie | Relationship
Robin | That's good
Julie | Yeah, and I want you to feel successful. And here's a way to do it. Wouldn't it be great, if you know, and so you're not freezing it as you don't do enough. And here's this box I need checked. You're like feeding them, you right. And it opens up their attachment giving system. And so from there, now we have this, had this conversation, to kind of set the stage like, this is, this is what I want to work on. Okay so now we're going to assume your partner is going to fail you there, because that's what we do. We fail each other. We have ruptures, right?
Robin | We're humans, yeah
Julie | Yeah, your partner's some at some point you're going to feel deprioritized, whether it's their failing or just something in you that got triggered. And so that's when you go, and you say, look, remember we talked about this, right. And so this is kind of one of those moments I'm not blaming you. Didn't do anything wrong, but this is kind of one of those moments where I get the message. And you know, I know this topic is hard for us. It's hard to talk about where we kind of let each other down, but because that hasn't always gone well in the past. But you know, if I don't bring it up, then I'm going to feel alone with it. And right, hopefully they're open to that, and they're able to stay with you, because I will have taught them that that's what I do, and they are able to kind of lean in and not get defensive and not go, well, I wasn't trying to, or, you know, I didn't mean to, or you're just seeing it wrong, or I don't want to be responsible for your childhood wounds, right. So instead, they're able to kind of lean in and go, okay, tell me more. All right. So when I, you know, said I was going to call and I didn't, that took you to the worst place possible, which is, oh my god, I'm not being prioritized. No wonder you felt bad. I get that, and I want to help protect you from that in the future. So here's, you know, I'm willing to to shift for you. And it's not always that simple. Sometimes it's not I can just you can push a button and I can meet that need, because I also have my own stuff going on sometimes, you know, there are times when I'm going to be so focused on the project, and part of what helps me feel okay is knowing that I'm on top of this stuff. So how can we work together here? We both know it's kind of like you have a need for reassurance that you're a priority right over here. And then they have a need to not have to constantly put whatever's going on with them on the side, to to not just, you know, be a robot or whatever, right? Do you understand what I'm saying here?
Robin | Oh, for sure
Julie | Yeah. And so we have both of those needs. If we lean too heavily into one, and it's always about your need for reassurance, that's going to be a problem. If we lean too heavy into the other, which is they should never have to come your way and move in toward you, then we have another problem. So it's kind of like we're always balancing this place that has this like perfect tension, and we just have to figure out how to talk about it in a way that first doesn't make it worse. We're hearing each other. We're understanding each other. And then two I've seen so over and over and over again, just getting couples speaking to each other in this way and really leading with vulnerability and sometimes healthy assertion, that the problems just start to sort of dissolve on their own, you know, and then you start to get rid of all these little things. It's like your work there might be, if your partner doesn't call you back, you just have this felt reassurance that you're the priority, because you know, if you reach to them, they're going to lean in and talk to you about it, so you don't need to anymore. Or they're sitting there doing their work, and they remember, oh, this is one of those moments where, you know, yes, I'm really involved in this project, but I know my partner, I I want to help protect them from from feeling like not a priority, not oh, they're going to be mad at me, and I better, I better reach out. It's I want to help my partner protect them from this wounded place, because I love them. And then, to make even it more trickier, you're also responsible for healing some of those wounds and doing your self work. So lots going on there.
Robin | Lots going on there.
Julie | Yeah
Robin | If you've got a partner that is willing to do, willing to do the work, you know, it can work out beautifully, like, really, you can grow together. This is
Julie | Yes
Robin | With the last conflict that we had, we couldn't get out of the negative cycle as much as we tried, like we were, we were really working it Julie, I'm telling you just, like, okay, let's come at it this way or this way, and, like, take it, take a day break, okay, and then come back to it. But we ended up having a session with it with a couple therapists. Thank goodness, because he was able to be that middle person to walk us through and come to the core need that we were both we were having a hard time communicating to each other, or no, and now we know, right,
Julie | Beautiful.
Robin | So this is where conflict, you know, I'm not as much as it's so painful sometimes I realize that if you're with a partner that is willing to do it with you. It's like you can come out knowing each other better, and he and healing. I mean, really, that's the thing, right?
Julie | It absolutely, absolutely. It's just you know, you're getting to know yourself, and you're getting to know each other, and from that, you're learning better communication skills, and then as you learn the better skills, you get to know each other better, because part of the skills are being vulnerable. And so again, it just all starts to feed on itself. And I love that you were both in that and willing and even even just trying to get out of the cycle. Is a new cycle,
Robin | Right, Yes
Julie | Yeah. And I think that's what people don't recognize, is even though even failed attempts are better than no attempt, that is a movement in another direction. I always tell people, Look, if you're doing anything new at the beginning of this work, that's growth. At least we're getting you unstuck. We'll we'll fine tune it as we go, but at least we're getting you unstuck from the rigidity of the old pattern.
Robin | Yes, absolutely. Can you talk more about vulnerability? You mentioned it, Julie, because there's a difference between complaining, you know, over like, what is like what would you define as like, true vulnerability? Like, how right? Because how important it is.
Julie | Ok so I'll give an example. You left the keys out again. You know how anxious that makes me? You know how important it is for me to keep the house organized, like, why won't you just listen? It hurts my feelings. It makes me sad when you don't listen. You know that's not so much vulnerability, right. I mean, we're kind of touching on talking about some feelings, but you're not really invulnerable. Those words are protest words you're trying to motivate your partner to change, rather than really digging in and sharing yourself with them as a way to open them up to wanting to help you. And so the vulnerable thing to say there, and this does take some skill. Remember, we have to be able to figure out what the vulnerability is to begin with. The vulnerability is, listen, I know you have your your own stuff going on. First you want to kind of lean into them, create some safety. I know you're not just purposefully coming in and throwing the keys down like, I know that isn't where your heart is right. But what happens for me is I'm, you know, really working hard to keep keep on top of things. I mean, it helps me feel safe inside when I've got all these things going on, just to know, you know, the keys are taken care of, and I don't have that one thing to pick up. But you know what what's really important to me right now is just to know you care about that. Because what's worse than not having the keys put away is feeling like maybe you don't see that, maybe you don't care, and then I just feel all alone with it. So if nothing else, can you just help me know right now that you understand where I'm coming from, and that I'm not just trying to randomly attack you, that this actually has some meaning for me. That is, I mean, you can probably feel your heart open to that, just as I speak those words like, it opens people, and especially if they're, you know, doing the work too, to help themselves get open. It invites them in to help. And your partner really is far more likely to remember the keys when they see that and remember to put them away when they see those keys and they and they say, instead of saying them to their selves, well, I don't want them to be mad or just kind of not really noticing, they're able to kind of remember that felt experience of, well, I don't want my partner to feel alone, you know, I don't like to feel alone in things. So that that's just one example of the difference between the two. One is just truly sharing who you are, and the other one is really just trying to motivate them to change,
Robin | Right
Julie | And if it is going to change, it is going to come from empathy, not fear.I mean
Robin | It's going to come from empathy, not fear.
Julie | Yes. And there is some truth to you know, sometimes, if you're saying, look, we have to go to therapy, or I'm not going to stay in this relationship. I mean, there's fear involved there, but it's not sustainable, right. Let me say this sustainable change only comes from empathy.
Robin | Wow love it
Julie | In really, in close relationships. I mean, that's what they're meant to be, right
Robin | Right
Julie | How are like partner inspiring empathy and how is the other partner responding to empathy? That's really the crux of it.
Robin | That was, that's something that in this last fight we had, it was like, that's what I was needing, and I didn't. I was I needed empathy. And now my partner knows that, you know, it's like, okay, and he's like, okay, but because he's avoidant, and there was a lot of stuffing down his feelings or maybe not feeling them at all. He's like, I have to learn that this is a skill that I can learn. And I'm like, okay, like, that's, it's amazing, really, right? Like, wow,
Julie | You're lucky. He's that's great. I mean,
Robin | I'm extremely lucky. I know this, I know this. I do you
Julie | You say I don't, yeah. I mean, that's beautiful.
Robin | You can learn to be empathetic, right? Julie.
Julie | We all are already. It's just we have. It's how much fear is blocking it. That's the
Robin | How much fear is blocking our empathy.
Julie | How much fear is blocking it, and how much of your inability to communicate it is blocking it. But I've never worked with anyone that I was able to you know, let me just say in that example that I shared, where the partner is kind of feeling alone and heard misunderstood. I mean, there's no human that you can't help figure out. I in life have felt misunderstood. It felt bad. I in life have felt alone or ignored in something. It felt bad when you can get them into that there's all you need for empathy. I know what alone feels like. It's just that if that person is so cut off from their own experience, it's impossible. They're not able to feel them. They're definitely not going to be able to feel you.
Robin | Yeah, yeah, no, you say unless. So when it comes to vulnerability, unless they involve stepping out of one's comfort zone for the greater good, they're venting, not being vulnerable. So stepping out of your stepping out of your own comfort zone for the greater good. I've never heard that said before. It's very that's profound, really. Wow.
Julie | Yeah, what does that mean to you?
Robin | I guess it means, I mean, when you think about the greater good, this isn't just for me, I'm not. I'm not saying this for my own, for just my own well being. I'm doing this for us, like this is our bridge. I really want to meet you here, right? And it's for us. It's for the highest good, it's for our relationship, right?
Julie | So true, so true. I like, I like to say it like this too. Like, when I have someone do something in a relationship, whether it's be vulnerable, or if they're talking about, well, I'm gonna protest. That's the only way it can be heard, you know? Then I'm going to invite them to okay, let's just talk about the impact, right. What's the impact on you? What's the impact on your partner? And what's the impact on your relationship? And if someone is not doing things that are working in their relationship, it's guaranteed that that's out of balance. Some people won't speak up because they don't want to harm the relationship. They'll leave me if I speak up. Okay, so they're prioritizing the relationship over self. That's for
Robin | Over themselves.
Julie | Yes, some people are going to protest because there's they just need to get the need met urgently. I just, I'm going to protest because I need it met yesterday. Right?
Robin | Yup
Julie | So now what they're doing is they're prioritizing themselves over their partner's experience. Maybe they're saying mean things to their partner. Maybe they're just not seeing what their partner is getting right, or whatever it is, and now their partner is suffering. And then, you know, sometimes we have people who don't want to hurt their partner's feelings, so they're not going to they're going to not bring things up. I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want to make them sad. I won't like how I feel if I do that. So now they're prioritizing their partner's needs over their own needs. So we just need to, like you said, the greater good is when all those three things align.
Robin | Yes
Julie | I'm doing what's best for me so I can feel good about the way I'm communicating. I'm doing what's best for my partner, because I'm not, you know, just randomly triggering them or trying to make them feel shameful, and I'm doing what's best for the relationship, because that's what health does, is it helps relationships become more healthy.
Robin | Right. And, you know, you start the book that way. Julie on talking about, you know, we talk about what a healthy relationship is, but what we want to do is reframe that as a secure relationship, a secure partnership. So, like, what does that look like? Can we just look at, can we just, like, talk about, what, what does a secure relationship look like? So we can understand the difference?
Julie | Yeah, let's go back to your situation where you wanted to feel prioritized, right. Okay so
Robin | I think validated was more anything but yes, yeah
Julie | Ok so let's do validated then. So you you know overall, in the big picture of the relationship, you need to know that my partner, generally speaking, really does understand and make space for my emotions. If I go to them, they're going to be there for me, right. The reason I can reasonably assume they're going to be there, they're going to show up, they're going to want to understand, and they're going to say, hey, that makes sense to me. Okay, so I kind of have this knowledge, this felt sense. Now we go to a moment where there's a rupture, where your partner is not validating you. They're they're stepping out of their norm because they're triggered, or they've got whatever they've got going on, they're busy, they're tired. I mean, we're always having good reasons to not be our best selves. So they, you know, they don't validate you. They say you're just being irrational, right now we have a rupture, and so a secure relationship, first of all, sorry, the overall climate that I described, that's a part of security. But now we have a rupture, and in that rupture, what security looks like is, hey, listen, I just want to let you know, I know you're tired and stuff, but you know how I need that I need emotional validation, so do you and I wasn't feeling it just then. Can we do something here? Can we try this again? Whatever it is, both partners are able to repair in a way that doesn't start destructing this overall relationship. Because if there's enough experiences of unrepaired ruptures, the climate starts to get really bad, and so a, we have a healthy climate, and B, we have healthy interactions that have met attachment needs, that are consistent and repetitive and sustaining that environment.
Robin | Right.
Julie | It's like I said, you know, in the book, you know, we look at San Diego, right. It's got this, you know, one of the greatest climates, there's not a lot of rain, it's just temperate. It feels good, right. It's, for lack of better word, securely attached, okay and then we have, you know, let's say it's all of a sudden climate change happens. And you know, every now and then it's it rains in San Diego, and sometimes they have big storms, right. But everybody in San Diego knows they will get back to their good climate. Nobody has to worry, right. We're going back to it. Don't worry. Well, then we have some climate change come along, or whatever, and all of a sudden, it's just storming all the time. At some point, people are going to go, I don't know if I want to live here anymore. Like it rains too much here, there is going to be that shifting point. And that's what happens with couples, is we start off with this beautiful our our needs are met, and then all of a sudden we start having these ruptures that aren't repaired, and then that starts to affect the environment, and when the environment starts to feel unsafe, we're more more sensitive. We have a hard time regulating ourselves through ruptures, because not only is it, the rupture feels bad in the moment, and I'm afraid it's going to keep happening.
Robin | Wow, Julie, the way that you explain that is just so good, because
Julie | Oh, thank you.
Robin | Yeah, the repair, the repair from the rupture, is is so important
Julie | So so, so important.
Robin | Because otherwise it's like, I can see it like the way I was visualizing as you were speaking, it's like, your foundation is just if you're not, if you're not making that foundation strong, like
Julie | Yeah
Robin | And you and you're not fixing those ruptures. Like, you know, your foundation is getting shakier and shakier and less stable and less stable. It makes perfect sense.
Julie | Absolutely Wow, in a lot of people too. They think, well, this is so much work. I don't want to have to go through every little thing. And it really isn't. It's actually less work, because secure couples can tolerate ruptures and heal have like, what I call implied repairs, where you're able to go in yourself and you're able to say, oh my gosh, I know my partner's having a bad day. It's not about they're they're just not wanting to validate me, right. Sometimes you need to reach out, but sometimes you can soothe yourself, because you have the security of the relationship to be a resource for you in that moment. And so you don't, you know, you don't really have to deal with every little thing, but then on this at the same time, all the little things stop happening to begin with.
Robin | Yeah
Julie | So we're just,
Robin | Can we talk about
Julie | Tipping the scales
Robin | Oh, sorry, go ahead,
Julie | Tipping the scales. Yeah. We're just constantly, yeah
Robin | Can you talk about influence versus control? Like you say, in a healthy relationship, you mutually influence each other, naturally, right. Because you like, I want my partner's opinions on things. I mean, if I've got something that I'm struggling with or just I just like, can you please give me advice? I need your help, because he's so smart, and he always, always, always gives me the most amazing advice. Really, I always follow his advice, because he always give me the like or like. Really, I'm just like, so I trust him so in that he'll give me the best advice versus control.
Julie | Okay, okay. Well, so with your partner, you know, what can you give me an example of something that you just really trust his advice?
Robin | I would say for sure, when it comes to my kids, when it comes to parenting stuff, and I'm like, This is what's going on right now with one of my daughters. And he'll be like, Well, have you looked at it this way? Have you approached it this way? What do you think about this? Like he's very, very good at seeing he could put himself in other people's shoes and be like, what maybe she's thinking about it this way. And I'm like, oh, good, thank you. It's just this other perspective that is seems wider sometimes, right.
Julie | Yeah that's beautiful. And so the way that he sort of presents that information to you is, here's some suggestions, here's the way I see it, right? And you feel like he's a team member, right. You feel like he's got this wisdom. And then your brain kind of sorts through what he's saying. Kind of mixes in some of your own stuff. And you're open to him. You're open to his feedback. It doesn't mean you might, in every situation, do things exactly the way he says. That tells me, because of the way your nervous system responds, that he is in a place of influence. He's just sharing with you. He's just trying to help you out. He's being a good teammate. Now, if he's in a state of control, he's in a state of fear, which is, he's going, oh my god, she's doing it all wrong, you know. Or she wants my help, and if I don't give her the right answers, I'm going to be a failure as a dad and so and so he's going to come at it from fear, which is, you got to do it differently. You got to pull it together. You shouldn't let them trigger you like that. That's your stuff, right. And you here's what you have to do. So in that situation, what he's really trying to do is get you to change so he doesn't have to feel bad. And that's the control part. And so your body feels the difference. Your body will absolutely feel the difference between someone trying to control and someone wanting to influence. So when we're, you know, when we're in the driver's seat, as far as like do, are we trying to control someone? Are we trying to influence someone? I mean, the the distinguishing factor is, how scared are you? And if you're, if you're scared and you're acting out that scared, you're going to be coming from just need to get you to change. So this bad thing that I fear doesn't happen, and if you're an influence, you're going, you know what we're safe. It's the it's not, you know, this is how problems get resolved. We need patience. We need time. You kind of have a realistic idea about, you know, you're not just kind of scared in the world, right. And so you're able to just kind of put things out there, but you're not so married to the result.
Robin | Wow, we're at a time Julie went by so fast. I love your work. I mean, you, you know, there's a say, my friend Buddy, my new friend Buddy, says this, I just love it he says, cream rises to the top. And there's a reason why you've got a million followers, and you're doing tremendous work. And, like, the value is, is, is huge. So thank you so much for being with us,
Julie | Deeply appreciate it for teaching wonderful
Robin | Sharing your wisdom with us today. I hope everybody reads your book. It's like, you know, it's right up there. I mean, really Hold Me Tight. I mean, this is the work of Sue Dr Sue Johnson, it's your work
Julie | Yeah. It comes from her
Robin | This is getting to the core of our human needs. And I just that's, that's how we connect, is from that humanness inside of us, right? We all just want it
Julie | Absolutely, yeah. And we've lost the art, and we need to get it.
Robin | We have lost it
Julie | Yeah,
Robin | Julie we've lost it, getting back to it
Julie | If you're hungry enough for it. This is the time. It's it's coming.
Robin | This is the time
Julie | Yeah, yeah.
Robin | Thank you, Julie. I'm going to close with a blessing based on the list the learnings from this week through you. So thank you
Julie | Beautiful.
Robin | May we remember during conflict and disagreements that our partner is not the enemy, the negative cycle is. May we practice new ways of being by taking a pause, turning into our own emotional needs and attuning to our partners needs to get to the root of what we need from each other in order to feel secure again. And may we remember that we all have a deep human need to feel seen, heard and valued. May we Be the change that we want to see if we want to understand. May we if we want understanding, may we understand if we want curiosity, may we be curious. And when we want to be heard, may we listen. So thank you. Julie, Menanno
Julie | Beautiful, well, thank that was a that's the best ending I've ever had. Thank you for that. That gave me chills. I was so sweet.
Robin | Oh, yay.
Julie | May we remember it. Okay. Well, thank you so much. This was great.
Robin | Thank you.
Julie | Okay, take care.
Thank you so much for being here with us. Let's Talk Love is brought to you by real love ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme. If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com for more resources and tools to boost your relational skills and get better at love. If this podcast has resonated with you, it would mean the world to us if you could take just 30 seconds to do these three things, follow or subscribe. Never miss an episode by hitting the follow or subscribe button. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether it's Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite app, this makes sure new episodes show up automatically for you, and it helps us get more visibility so more people can find our show. Leave a rating and review. Your feedback means everything to us. By leaving a five star rating and a thoughtful review, you're not only showing your support, but also helping others discover the podcast, share an episode that really spoke to you with someone in your life, whether it's a friend, partner or family member, your recommendation could just be what they need to hear. We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express gratitude for the Co Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded it and continue to steward the land that you live on as well many blessings and much love.