Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 4 Episode 4 with Dr. Morgan Anderson | Transcript

15.06.23

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today I am joined by Dr. Morgan Anderson. Dr. Morgan is a clinical psychologist who has dedicated her career to understanding the science of love and connection. She's the host of the let's get vulnerable podcast and founder of the Empowered Secure Loved Relationship Program. Today we dive into lessons in her book Love Magnet, where Dr. Morgan explains how our attachment style directly impacts how we relate to one another. She encourages daters to become love scientists. She says, curiosity is a superpower. We talk about how changing your mindset and questioning your limited beliefs about love and how key it is to building a strong self worth is to creating secure relationships. I hope our conversation empowers you to make positive shifts in your dating life and offers value along your path to better relationships. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk love. Today I am joined by the beautiful and brilliant Dr. Morgan Anderson. Dr. Anderson, thank you for being with us, Morgan.

Dr. Morgan Anderson | Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Robin Ducharme | Me too. I see the book behind you and I have been loving your book. I've been reading it for the past few weeks, about three weeks, and taking time, and listening to your podcast and getting to know you. And we've been following you for a while. So I'm just hope so incredibly grateful to have you on our show, and learn from you. So this is just a real pleasure. So thank you again.

Dr. Morgan Anderson | Gosh, the pleasure is mine. And I'm glad you're enjoying the book. And that's awesome.

Robin | So, you are a clinical psychologist, you're obviously an author, you are a relationship coach, you work with people day in and day out to help them with their love lives. And your book is called Love Magnet. So I first I thought we would talk about just for you to give us an just a background on yourself and dive into your story. I love how in your book and on your podcast and everything you do you share so much about yourself, which I think is really important that we share our stories, because that's how we learn from each other. Right? So you're really you're really great and vulnerable with sharing your life with us. So tell us how you became a successful psychologist or relationship coach, what led you down this path?

Dr. Morgan | Yes, of course. Like so many people that go down the path of clinical psychology. I did experience childhood trauma and I lost my mom at a young age. I was six years old. And I think through that loss and then also through watching my my dad began dating and going through different relationships. And I sort of began to see, okay, this this can go very badly. Like I started to see really unhealthy relationships at a young age. It just dealing with my own loss and my own my own hang ups. By by the time I got to college, I was just in toxic relationship after toxic relationship. I was really struggling in my own love life. Right? We become experts in the areas that we struggle in ourselves. We need to learn, right? Yeah. And then, you know, I talk about this a lot on the podcast that I had a rock bottom moment and for me it was after dating a narcissist. I was in a relationship with a narcissist for a year and a half. And it did end in filing a police report and I had very low self worth. I was completely isolated from my family and friends and I was just in this place where I knew I could not keep doing the things I was doing in relationships. It wasn't healthy for me. And it was this decision of I can keep numbing this and doing this again and again, or I can choose to heal. And thank goodness, I chose the path of healing. And I dedicated myself to studying attachment theory in my doctoral program, working with couples, I just committed to I will figure out what it takes to have a healthy, securely attached relationship. And that's what I've devoted my career to. And I've just been so lucky to help over 450 people now, go go through the program I developed and it works. And I'm an example that it works. I'm in an incredible relationship now. And so, you know, securely attached, healthy love is available. And yeah, I love what I do. It's so much more than a job. To me, it's a mission, it's a purpose, because I know the pain of repeating unhealthy patterns over and over in relationships.

Robin | Yes, we're going to talk all about the course that you offer. And obviously dive into the book, I wanted to talk to you about this relationship that you had when you were in grad school with this narcissist. And what you learned from that, and I'm going to quote you from your book, it's you say, it started out with fun weekends away fancy dinners out thoughtful gifts and tidal waves of love and adoration. I now know what I was experiencing was love bombing. Six months in a relationship completely shifted from pleasure to immense pain. The person I believed even my soulmate became my worst nightmare. After six months of experiencing emotional abuse, my self worth plummeted to his lowest point. And I completely hit rock bottom, like you said, and you said at this point, I knew something had to change. So and then you said, What I didn't realize was that I was paving the way through that relationship, and that learning from that relationship into the career that you have now. So there was a few years when I read that part of your book, in your experience. I did want to talk about talk about like, the narcissistic relationship, narcissist that you are with, and how we can because this is so common now Morgan, is it not? Because I think I mean, first of all, this word wasn't even in my vocabulary until maybe the last five years, it's now become this word that a lot of us are familiar with, and maybe looking out for these people that maybe exhibit these traits. So that's something I wanted to talk about in like the prep, how prevalent is it become that strong women, could you know, or being involved with with people are that are that are exhibiting these traits? And why is that happening? But then the other side of this, which is the positive, is that with that relationship brought you to this place where you are now with your career. So there was blessings in that experience, even though it was so incredibly painful, and you've hit rock bottom?

Dr. Morgan | Yes, lemons into lemonade, you know, and I it's so it's so interesting, this is kind of a side tangent, but he still finds ways to contact me. That's what narcissists love to do. They're very creative about still finding ways to contact you. So he'll find, you know, a different Google Voice number or something. And he actually contacted me the other day. And what I all I said was, thank you for forcing me to heal. And then I blocked them out marking, for sure. So you know if

Robin | It was by text, or was that by?

Dr. Morgan | Via text. Yeah. You're on? Yeah. And I think it's usually I never engaged, but he was being very apologetic. And who knows, maybe he's doing a ton of work on himself. I have no idea where he's at. But it's so beautiful that I am in this place now, where I just have immense gratitude for that experience. Because it was so so painful, that it did force me to heal. Yes. Yeah. And help people now. So yeah.

Robin | Yes, yes. I mean, there was blessings in that. So yes. Let's talk about you do a really great job of breaking down attachment theory. And you say that women need the science of attachment theory to change their daily lives. Can you explain this and why you actually integrate so much of attachment theory into your work and helping people find good relationships being.

Dr. Morgan | Yeah, absolutely. I would love to and I think just back to your your other question about how do we just you know, realize who these people are and how can you spot a narcissist one of the things I want to point out is that when we have an anxious attachment style, or when we are highly sensitive people which is very common with anxious attachment that can make us more susceptible to these kinds of relationships. So I think it really is up to us to take ownership for whatever we can. But then there's also this really important acknowledgement that this can happen to anyone, you can get into a relationship with narcissists, with a narcissist, no matter who you are. I've worked with doctors, lawyers, CEOs of companies, people who are very high up, and you would look at them and go, How did this happen? And narcissists are very good at what they do. And they they will prey on people who are highly empathic, and people with an anxious attachment style a lot of times, so there's both of the, the compassion and the grace of this can happen to anyone, and let's do everything we can to take ownership for how can I attract a healthy, securely attached, great relationship? I think it's both.

Robin | Awesome. And I think that that's what we're gonna dive into this in this conversation, because we've done a lot of work and talk around attachment theories on our show. But you break it, how could you break it down in like a palatable way and it you know, concise so we could get more into your book. I love it. But it is a big part of your book. I get it.

Dr. Morgan | Yeah. Yeah, I always tell people attachment theory is the missing piece of the dating puzzle or the relationship puzzle. And when you really understand it, and then apply it to your roommate, your relationship life, it makes a huge difference. attachment theory essentially, is the science of why we do what we do in relationships, and why we are attracted to the people that we are attracted to. And with that understanding, comes compassion with compassion comes change. I do have a great quiz. If you're if your audience wants to take a quiz and learn what their attachment style is, you can go to the link in my Instagram bio, Dr. Morgan coaching on Instagram, there's a link there. I think it's really important to tell people, this is a tool for understanding. And I need you to know that you're not doomed to whatever attachment style you have, and that there's so much research out there, including my own experience and client experiences that show that you can always move towards secure attachment, no matter where you're at, or what your past has been. So I always want to lead by saying that, and that it's just a tool for understanding ourselves. And there's four main styles. We have anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, disorganized or fearful, avoidant, and then secure and secure is where we all want to be. I'm happy to break those down really, really quickly. Sure. Okay. With with anxious attachment, I think the best way to understand it is you are prioritizing the relationship above yourself. And you have this fear of abandonment, where you're putting the relationship on a pedestal, and you're really doing everything you can to maintain the relationship. And then you also really struggle to internalize reassurance, so any reassurance you get, it's really hard for you to accept it. So I know a lot of people listening, you're like, okay, that might be me, this might be you. If you're sending 15 text messages when you don't get a response. If when you don't hear from your partner, the first thing you're thinking is Ooh, maybe they found someone new and they're no longer interested in me. These people catastrophize relationship endings a lot. It's a it's a really painful experience. Yeah.

Robin | Yeah. Could be like, you're also let's say you are texting and they're not texting back. It's like, oh, I said something wrong in the last text. Yeah, you're like, it's me. I did something wrong. I'm yeah, I'm this, I'm that yeah,

Dr. Morgan | Devaluing self, which is what you're talking about there where you are, you know, you're being self critical. You're finding things that are wrong with you, and then over valuing your partner.

Robin | Totally. Okay.

Dr. Morgan | And then we have avoidant attachment, which is the opposite here, where you are hyper independent, and struggle with intimacy and closeness. And a lot of times avoidant Lee attached folks have beliefs that they're not a good partner or that they're going to fail the whole relationship in some way. And they also have beliefs that they will lose their freedom and that they don't want to be dependent on and they struggle to would depend on anyone else. So they really struggle with maintaining intimacy. And there can be a what's the word I'm looking for? You can put yourself above others. So there might be some devalue grandiosity. Yes, thank you grandiosity, you might be devaluing your partner a bit. And actually, Robin, I think this is where people will sometimes confuse avoidant attachment with narcissists. So I think there is a really important distinction. Okay, yeah, so with a Narsicist, the devaluing is about control and manipulation. With the avoidant Lee attached person, it's about their own fear of intimacy. So I just I like to say that because I do think I see that kind of get confused a lot. And then the third attachment style is disorganized attachment or fearful avoidant. And this is highly correlated with childhood trauma. And it's about 5% of the population. And this is the pendulum swing between anxious and avoidant where someone is constantly going back and forth between the two styles. And it's unpredictable how they're going to show up in the relationship. And as you can imagine, this is a very, very painful attachment style.

Robin | Big time, you if your relationship with somebody like that you don't know how there's just no predictability, your that that would be very difficult. Yeah. And I could see how that would relate to a childhood where there was there was very little stability. You don't know that, you know, that child is just having to adapt, but at a whim, almost. So that's that would be.

Dr. Morgan | And they're not getting their needs met. So you think about it's like, okay, this is a child that's not getting their needs met. So then they learn these different strategies, and they're not getting their their needs met through either strategy, but they just have learned both ways. And they just keep trying both ways to try to connect, but neither one's working so, so much compassion for people who experienced that it's really painful. Yeah. And then the final style. Of course, we all want to be I love talking about secure attachment, because this is where we all want to be. And with secure attachment, we value ourselves, we value our partners, we really appreciate our own independence. And we also want to be close with our partners and depend on our partners. This is that beautiful term, interdependence, not codependence with anxious attachment, not hyper independence with avoidant attachment, interdependence, where I can depend on me, and I can depend on you. And we can grow together and build a healthy long term relationship, where my self worth is not dependent on you. But I do value intimacy and value building something wonderful with a partner.

Robin | Yeah. So let's talk about emotions, like being emotionally unavailable. So there was a time in your life, you share this when you were not emotionally available. Like you said, there was a time when you were dating when you should have been healing. And I think that's that, like, I think like, so many of us have done that, right. And I think there's this this thing in our culture, too. It's like this whole thing. It's like, there's something wrong with you. If you're single. Are you kidding me? It's a beautiful thing. Like, let's just be, let's honor the person that is taking time to just be like, why are we like so stuck on having to be in a partnership, and if it's wrong, it's wrong. If you're not, something's wrong with you. But I really liked the stories you share Morgan, about how you know, you were while you were dating while you should have been healing. These were like some of these behaviors like your actions, were completely misaligned with what you said you wanted. You were having backburner relationships. And you're communicating one thing, but your behaviors were, were not in alignment. So can you talk about this time in your life and how, when you're coaching people that you're you're you're seeing, okay, you're you're coming? Like, I don't think you're emotionally available yet. This is why you need to do this work, which is going to lead you into a secure partnership.

Dr. Morgan | I love this. And I it's so funny. When I think about that time in my life. I'm like, wow, who is that girl? Like I have just so very different now. But that's definitely part of my journey. And what I know is that the core is low self worth was really what is connected to that. And I want to I want to explain this the best I can. A lot of times when we're anxiously attached. So when we're like oh, we think we really want a partner, we really want a relationship, we would do anything to make it work. And maybe logically, we're saying, okay, I'm ready for love, etc. There can be still these internal wounds, which is what I was going through where I didn't actually want to be seen, and actually really being deeply loved terrified me, because I didn't think I was worthy of love. And I thought that if somebody really deeply knew me that they, they would not want to be with me. So I was very good at showing up and dating and trying to find people. But I didn't want to be with anybody who would actually give to me, I didn't want to receive love. So, you know, I tell this story of like, there's this wonderful guy went on a couple of dates with him. And he was so ready to commit, etc. And I made up some excuse that he likes baseball, like, oh, he likes baseball. I can't be with him. Yeah, I just, you know, and that's what happens, right? Like, when we're when we're sort of unconsciously repeating patterns, we'll find any way we can to sabotage love, that's really available, where we could be really deeply seen and known and loved. If we're not emotionally available ourselves, we will sabotage it in any way that we can.

Robin | And the example you give, as well was, you were seeing somebody that was in this maybe that same person, I don't know. But he was quite invested. And you had said, Okay, we're going to keep this going. And then you went traveling for a month or two to Asia?

Dr. Morgan | I did this a lot. Yeah.

Robin | Okay. But saying that, okay, I really want but then you're, you know, you're being you're traveling, you want to be free to, but he's thinking guys, you communicated. I thought we were together, like, you know, so that was a sabotage.

Dr. Morgan | Yeah. And there's this whole, this whole thing that I really, I talked so much about in my program, which is identity and standards, and relationship culture. And I think when we don't have clarity on who am I, at my highest and best self, what does it actually look like for me to show up as an emotionally available partner? For me to be this amazing partner that I want to be? What does that actually look like? If we haven't developed the clarity on that, we run the risk of just looking forward and everyone else without calling ourselves out on it, which is exactly what I was doing. And I think a lot of us can relate to, oh, we want this incredible partner that maybe we haven't done the work ourselves to show up to our own standards, right?

Robin | Yes. And so you have something called that you you guide your clients, your patients and clients through relationship inventory. And so is that part of the relationship inventory? Is it it's introspection, right? This is an introspection tool, where you're helping people look at their past patterns, past relationships, like to identify the patterns, that's really important. So can you give us can you tell us about the relationship inventory? And I also wanted to ask about, like giving us an example of a pattern. Like maybe you help somebody that okay, this is the pattern, they identify it so that you can help people, we can help stop recreating this pattern that's just like, Oh, God, here we go. Again, it's just another person with the same old thing.

Dr. Morgan | Yes, yes. The relationship inventory is loved and hated by everyone I work with, because it just, you know, you, you are looking at everything. And essentially, it's a framework to help you look at every significant relationship you've been in to look at what kind of relationship it was. And I have people answer a set of questions. The questions include, did you know you were loved? Did you feel seen in this relationship were your needs met? So they're very deep, deep questions that we're looking at? And yes, when you look at all your significant relationships, you do see the patterns. And then I have another exercise, which I believe I talked about at some point in the book. And this is all in the book, which I love.

Robin | Yes, it is. I know. Everybody has to read your book. It's so great. It's fantastic. Yeah, that's funny, too. I love your stories.

Dr. Morgan | Thank you. It's experiential. You know, I didn't want to just talk I wanted people to actually do the work as they as they read this book. But there's another exercise where I talk about repetition compulsion, yes. And this is I always say this is probably the best thing Freud ever did was he talked about this . There's a lot of stuff from Freud the you know, we don't we don't like it's like not relevant but repetition compulsion he talked about and it's this idea that we are repeating dynamics in our adult relationships that are unfinished business from our childhoods. And we're we're repeating these dynamics with the unconscious wish that we would just get a different outcome this time.

Robin | Whereas person, yes, yeah, that's gonna be different.

Dr. Morgan | Yes, this time, it'll work out. I'll get them to love me this time. So you know that that question you you asked me about what's a pattern, a common pattern I see is just the the person who is attracted to the emotionally unavailable partner who can't really show up for them. Maybe it's somebody who pops in and out of their life. I talked to people all the time that have been in those kinds of relationships for years, we're talking years, right of like people who pop in and out, that can't really give to you consistently. But yet, you're still wanting it to be different. And I help people see that they're taking their childhood wounds, they're reenacting them present day, and they're wanting to get it healed by this person. Right? Instead of, okay, let's actually do the internal work, so that you're not choosing those people. And that you can actually have an entirely new relationship template or blueprint. And that you're attract, you're attracted to someone who can give you a different result. Right. And I help people do that all the time. I have a client that just got married over the weekend, who had decades long of dating unavailable men who typically lived in different countries.

Robin | That's not available.

Dr. Morgan | Because we love distance when we're looking for unavailable, we love long distance right, so she had this long history. And she did this inner work. And she attracted this incredible man in her life, who is consistent and stable. And she was finally attracted to consistent and stable because of her inner work. When we don't do the inner work. We're not even attracted to that if it shows up on our doorstep.

Robin | Right. So the other big piece of this, which is what we're talking about it like is your is our mind, right. And you in the book, you go into belief systems, changing our beliefs, right. So you say holding on to beliefs we develop in childhood due to trauma loss, neglect is exactly like continuing to wear a cast when you long no longer need one. So tell us about this analogy. And how our old childhood beliefs, our limiting beliefs that are not serving us act as a cast that we no longer need.

Dr. Morgan | Yeah, this gets me emotional, because I just think of how many people still are walking around that way. And it just it honestly makes me sad to think about, but there's so many people that are holding on to those beliefs in their adult lives. This comes from the idea that, as children we have, we have no ability to set boundaries with our parents, or to tell our parents that we can't be in a relationship with them. We depend on our parents for survival, right? Like, we're talking food, water, a roof over your head. So

Robin | We will do everything, you know, everything to maintain that bond, because we do survive. Sorry, we do depend 100% on our parents, exactly. caregivers.

Dr. Morgan | So when you really understand this, you realize there are beliefs that you developed that allowed you to maintain that bond with your caregiver, because you had to out of survival. And those are like a cast, like there's things that were broken, and you had to put a cast on. But then as you become independent, you individuate from your parents, you're living your adult life, you no longer have to have those beliefs. It's no longer necessary for your survival, right? Like, take the cast off, you don't need it anymore, and you can do the healing. And you can have a whole different life and different types of relationships.

Robin | I love that. Yeah. It's just I think that and that's what the power behind your work is that you're helping people identify what are those beliefs? Because you like and that's something that, you know, this has taken me the years that I I've lived 45 years. And and you know, it wasn't until like I was I guess I was late 20s And I'm just like, beliefs are absolutely not set in stone. I am changing my beliefs all the time. And I want to be flexible about that. Like that belief may not belong to me at all. I've been believing it because my parents believed it or, or my friends believed it, or this is what I was raised to believe, right? It's just like, but that doesn't suit me those beliefs. I could think of so many things that I don't believe any more than I used to right?

Dr. Morgan | I love it. Yes. It's so powerful. And I'm so glad that you've realized that and I just, there are so many people that haven't that. They don't they don't even know that they have beliefs. So then how can they change them? So I think it's so important that we just talk about this as much as possible. And people begin to realize that you can completely change your life when you change your beliefs, and thoughts and behaviors, but the beliefs really help.

Robin | Okay, so I love this, this term that you coined, that you are helping everybody become love dating scientists. So tell us what it means to become a dating scientist? And then I wanted to get into Yeah, this is great. We're gonna get to the dating now. So Fine. Love it.

Dr. Morgan | I love it. Yeah, this, this term is so helpful, because I think so many of us can go into our dating lives with so much emotional emphasis. And we can get into a very subjective space, and we're telling stories, and you know, you if you're anything like me, like maybe you meet someone, and you're like, Ooh, this is the one we're gonna

Robin | Oh, we're gonna get married God, how many times have we? We've all done it. It's a fairy tale thing. It's just ingrained in us.

Dr. Morgan | Yeah, the fairytale. So I love to have people think about, Okay, I am gathering data. I expect you to bring data in. Please, please, please, if you are dating, I want you to think about it matters how you feel when you are with them. Do you even like them? Do you like how you feel when you're around them? Right? Instead of oh my gosh, do they like me?

Robin | Does he like me? Does she like me? Yes. You're like, this is so important. is like, do you feel comfortable? Do you feel yourself? Do you feel the mean? You could feel butterflies? Do you feel light? Like are you able to like, have a normal conversation with this person? Rather than like, Oh, God, what did he What is he or she thinking? Oh, all those things.

Dr. Morgan | The right person for you will help regulate your nervous system and you will feel more like

Robin | So good one. That's good. Morgan. Yes. The right person will help you regulate your nervous system. Oh. Yes. So this is what the task is. If you're dating, it's like you become this dating scientist. You're an information gatherer, you. You talked about the power of curiosity. It's hot to be curious, right? Yes. It's your you say curiosity is your superpower?

Dr. Morgan | Yes. And I think so often, we're going in and we're thinking, Oh, my gosh, how do I look? Am I gonna be impressive enough? Like, we're just so self critical, instead of saying, What if this is just an adventure, an opportunity for me to connect with another human being and be curious about how I feel in their presence and be curious about who they are? And I have no expectations, but I have clarity on my standards?

Robin | Oh, yes. So the other reminder, in your work is the importance of taking time. And I think that is the thing is like that, you know, I've been guilty of is just like rushing in, right? And it's like to two feet jump in like this is great. And, and I see that happening, right? We see that like all around I know you do with your clients. It's like, you know, I interviewed Dr. Nezzer Zadie and Dr. Helen Fisher. And they both express how important this is right? Their science. And you of course, this is your work, too. There's science to back how important this is because the first stage is infatuation. And it's just like your brain isn't operating properly. Your brain is actually tricking you. And it's like this biology thing that you're like, drawn to not see the flags that are being clearly presented, but you're not seeing them. So let's talk about time and how you coach people into that because like, give it months, give it weeks, give it years. What is the rush? Right? Yeah,

Dr. Morgan | I love it. I love it. It goes back to beliefs a lot of times because I truly believe that if we're rushing, a lot of us have outsourced our self worth. And we just want this person in our life. And if we can have them then that means that we're good enough. So we're placing our self worth into somebody else's hands. So that's one perspective. And then the other thing is I just want people to realize how valuable the relationship space is in their life like you have this finite amount have energy and time, and you want to intentionally invest, you want people to earn your emotional investment or earn your vulnerability. And I think of it as kind of like stock market investing a little bit. Would you just throw all of your money into a stock that you knew nothing about? You wouldn't?

Robin | Oh, my gosh, really good analogy, you have no way Jose.

Dr. Morgan | Yeah, you have to intentionally invest, you need to have data that this person is reliable, consistent, emotionally available, they do what they say they're gonna do, they have integrity, like you, you have to give yourself time to gather the data, and not just by words, but by experiences and actions and how you feel. And once you can get into that scientist’s mindset and really slow down your investment, you'll realize you enjoy the process so much more. And, and you're getting to feel securely attached as you're investing. Because secure attachment requires data, that someone is going to do what they say they're going to do stable, consistent, emotionally available, right? And how we start a relationship determines what it's going to be like for the life of the relationship. You're building your relationship culture early on. So people Yeah, I mean, I can't say it enough.

Robin | Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah. You're building your relationship culture early on. Yes. And you're not going to be able to see you're not be able to gather this data in a short period of time. Like, you're going to be neat need to see this person in all different settings. Yes. Like, over over like 5,6,7,8,9,10 dates, right? With your family with your friends. Oh, going grocery shopping. Oh, now we're gonna go on a little trip. How is this person going to be while you're traveling with them? In many different like, and what about your first hard conversation or argument? How's that gonna go? So all of this is all part of your information gathering? How important? Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Morgan | I always feel like this. This kind of makes me sound. I don't know, it probably makes me sound like I'm about 75. But I'll say it anyways, I really think it's interesting how people will engage in physical intimacy, which I have no judgment on. It's like, of course, there's physical needs. But if we'll do that, without even having had an argument with someone, you don't even know how this person will navigate conflict. Right? Like, I want to know that because to me, physical intimacy is a big emotional investment. So I want to know, how does this person navigate conflict? And I would want to know that before having physical intimacy, so I just think it's really important to think about, do you know what your emotional investment is going to be with certain experiences? And you have to say, how do I maintain secure attachment? Maybe visiting your family three weeks in is too much too soon, that you don't have a secure enough base to support that level of intimacy. So I always want people thinking, Are we securely attached enough to support being this vulnerable? And making decisions based on that? Oh, my

Robin | Gosh, Morgan, I really, okay. I have never heard that before. And I don't remember reading that in your book. But I love that about, like, what is conflict gonna be like, like, let's navigate that first before we sleep together? Because that's the thing, especially about women, is that we get so attached. When we sleep with somebody else. It's like this. And that's primal. And it's also it's just like, Okay, now I'm way more in.

Dr. Morgan | Right. It' biology.

Robin | Yes, it is just biology. Yeah. So, so just navigating conflict first, to see if that's actually going to be good. Like, is it going to work out here before you sleep with somebody before giving them so much of yourself intimately. I think that's a great rule. Yeah. So we all I love this part of your book. Page one, oh, it starts at page one or two, one or one to one. It's your flags, right? Red flags, yellow flags, green flags. So I think I think a lot of us will know, like, be able to say, okay, these are red flags. I would like to go maybe over a couple of we've got time. But really, where I was like, oh, let's spend more time on the yellow flags. Because yellow is a caution. Like I like I think we all kind of understand red and red and green, but it's the yellow I was like, what I read these I was like, Oh, this is good. So do you want me to read a few? Or do you have like, like, do you

Dr. Morgan | Please read them. you can remind me.

Robin | So arrives late to the first date. Yeah, I mean, that's a yellow. Yeah, I was like, yeah, that's totally yellow flag. Makes a few jokes that are meant to be funny but hurt your feelings.

Dr. Morgan | Yeah, for sure. We don't know if this is someone who they're just have a sarcastic sense of humor. And maybe that's how they are with their friends? Or is this a sign of avoidant attachment? Because that's something that avoidantly attached folks to do to kind of slightly devalue you is make fun of you. So there's definitely data to be gathered there. And then also, with any yellow flag, I want you thinking if I give feedback on this, so I tell the person how it made me feel. Does it change? That's why it's a yellow Yes, yeah. Oh,

Robin | I love that. Okay. And, or is it complete defensive? And I didn't do that or right, because that would turn into a red flag. Yep. Okay. Love it. shares that he prioritizes his career, and this is why he hasn't found the one. When I read that one, I talked to my best friend about this. I was like, oh, I've never thought of that one.

Dr. Morgan | That's like shots fired at, like, 60% of all the men out there. Um, so yeah, this one, once again, highly correlated with avoidant attachment style of partners who are in this happens for women, too. It's not just men. But when we're more comfortable investing in our career, a lot of times that means there's fear of intimacy. So it is just this yellow flag of is this person ready to be emotionally available? And can we have a level of closeness that feels good to me?

Robin | Right. Right. I would think to myself, if I was with somebody that said, like, I just haven't had relationships, I'm it's all been work, work work, I'm thinking. Because I know how important my relationships are in my life, like they are my priority, my top. And it's like, that's exhibited in my actions, right? So where does and if he's in he or she is saying, relationships are my top one in my life? It's like, well, that doesn't actually fit with what you're telling me.

Dr. Morgan | Right? Yeah, it's a yellow flag. Absolutely. Yep.

Robin | Okay, let's go with one more. shares that he struggles to open up and finds it hard to express himself, but he wants to work on it.

Dr. Morgan | Yeah, that and I think I love that one. Because at least there's ownership. And if someone is expressing that to you, that means that they're aware of it. So I think it's all about this curiosity of can they work on it? Can we still co create secure attachment as a couple, even if that's something that they're struggling with? And you just won't know, until you gather some data.

Robin | Yeah. Okay, there's two more things we have to talk about before we before we say goodbye, because I just like this is good. So I just love this, this part, where you said, you've said this on your podcast before, as well as in your book, it's so funny, but it's also so true, you say, we have to stop feeding the plastic plants, no more plastic plants. For those that don't know what this is about, it means stop giving your precious energy away to relationships that are going nowhere, stop pouring, like water or energy into partners that might look great, but have no capacity for growth. Yes, like a plastic plant, no matter what you do, is not going to grow, that relationship is not going to grow and that person is not invested in their growth. Oh my gosh, start acknowledging that a dead end relationship is a dead end relationship. No matter how much you give to it, it cannot you cannot make it grow.

Dr. Morgan | I know my people who listen to podcasts are always like you need like merchandise with stop watering plastic plants, you know, because yes, it or do. It's so powerful. Once you understand this metaphor, and I think it's, it's really, it's helpful for you and it's helpful for the other person because you realize, it's not that maybe they do want to grow but they simply don't have the capacity. A plastic plant cannot grow. It's, you know, it's not capable of it. So when we realize that about people that maybe we really want them to grow and we think if we, you know, move the plant into some sunlight and play it some special music and dance and sing to it, and maybe we'll make it grow. But if you start to realize that it's not that they don't want to, it's simply that they can Don't right. So this is for everyone who's trying to get their partner into therapy, who's trying to give them all the attachment styles books, and who's trying to get their partner to do better in their career. Like, if you're doing all these things and trying to change someone, and nothing's happening, you know, or maybe they're not committing to you, you're doing everything to try to get them to commit, you have to believe people, when they tell you what their capacity is, whether it's through words or actions, you have to believe them. And you have to say, I'm going to water a plant that can grow, I'm going to pour my energy into a relationship that is good for me that grows with me, because my energy is so precious, I'm not going to waste it on something that can't grow.

Robin | That's right. Beautifully said. It's just I just love it so much. That's just such a great. It's a great lesson. Okay, so online dating do's and don'ts. And we're gonna be talking a lot more about this on the IG live next, which I'm so excited about. But before we close, I just have to go through a few of these with you, because there was some great learnings in here. So the first to say is that we have to have a positive mindset. Like if you're going into this dating, if you're going into dating with a negative mindset, like you're going to be creating what you're like or what you're putting out there. That's what it is, right?

Dr. Morgan | This one's so huge, because I think there's a lot of negativity about online dating, is, it's easy. As humans, we always focus on the things that don't go well, you know, we're very good at focusing on pain or the things that didn't go well. And a lot of times, we'll just focus on that. Because remember, we're we're wired for survival instead of pleasure. So the brain likes to focus on the things that don't work out or that don't go well. But I would have people think about what's the best case scenario? What if things do go well? What does it look like? If I enjoy dating apps and dating in the process? What would that look like? You know, so just the mindsets huge. Because yeah, if you're like, Oh, these dating apps, or you're not showing up for it, you're just gonna create a miserable experience for yourself?

Robin | Yeah. Okay. The other rule I love this you teach is like, Okay, well, first of all, the understanding that I don't think a lot of people do understand is that the dating app is for introducing people. It's like, what do you call it? Sorry,

Dr. Morgan | I will, I'll refer to it a lot of times as opportunity creation. So it's just a tool to create opportunities.

Robin | It's not a relationship building tool. So you need to get off the app. And you do advocate like within a week, you want to meet that person, or by by, right.

Dr. Morgan | Oh, absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. And if, if you're not meeting in person, I would say at least you're having a FaceTime call, but you need to be off of the app.

Robin | Yes. Don't waste your time messaging this person for weeks and weeks and weeks and building a relationship, which is not a relationship over text. No, you

Dr. Morgan | Don't want a pen pal. It breaks my heart. When I talk to people who say, Oh, I've been messaging this person for six months. I lose my mind when I hear that. No, no, no, no, no. You need to figure out is this worth my energy investment? Remember the scientists, so you need to be able to gather the data. And the only way to do that is to get off of the app?

Robin | Yes. Totally. Okay. And really, the other thing you say, is that you have to create a dating routine. I really liked this Morgan, you suggest people create a dating routine. And it's like, it's like a gym, a gym routine. I get this, right, because we have to we like we have to go to the gym because well, we go to the gym. If you do like it, that's great. But you do it for your health, your well being and for, you know, yeah.

Dr. Morgan | It gives me your life closer to where you want to be closer to your highest and best self. Right? So you know, it's an investment in you. Yeah.

Robin | But you're not going to the gym five times a day, for an hour at a time.

Dr. Morgan | No. And you're not saying Oh, I haven't gone in six months. So I guess I should go for seven hours.

Robin | Right? So what you're saying is create a routine. You want to carve out you say what is it 20 minutes, four times a week? Yeah. Yep. Okay, an hour a week.

Dr. Morgan | Yeah, you want it to be sustainable because we do have to stay in the process of finding our person we can't just get I see this so much where people get in it and then they get out of it. They say, oh, I'm off all the apps because I'm sick of it. And you have to be able to stay open to opportunities. That's how you meet your person. So you need a sustainable dating routine that you're going to stick with so that hopefully you can enjoy. You know, I talked about, like, play your favorite music or get your favorite drink and make it an enjoyable experience, right? Just like you want a sustainable gym routine, you need a sustainable dating routine.

Robin | Yes. And so you want to have I like to see you like, at least if you can, one day a week, and it's in your schedule, right? So and if you can't, if you're not having a date, one on one with another person, date yourself, it's part of your dating routine. So you're gonna go out and go to a movie by yourself or go go enjoy. Pick a friend and say let's go on or it's my date night. I don't have somebody to go with. But are you just go and enjoy a nice meal or a nice walk? Right? That's it's part of your dating routine.

Dr. Morgan | I like that. Yes, I love that you are talking about this. This comes from Bob Proctor. He always says make the space in your life for the things that you desire. So if you desire love, you need to make the space for it and carve it out. So if the space isn't there, it can't come in. So it's this idea of its love for yourself, love for a partner love for a friend. But you're creating this space in your schedule that's carved out for love.

Robin | Yes. Wow. Well, Morgan, I want to thank you for everything that you're doing to help people find love and secure attachment, secure relationships. And I loved your book of we're gonna make sure we put this on our, on everything we're doing to promote this podcast and the IG. And I recommend anybody that's wanting to learn because, you know, you could be in a relationship. I mean, I learned a lot I married right from reading your book. I mean, there's just a lot of beautiful tools and lessons your introspection, which I think is always so important. If we could follow you on Dr. Morgan coaching, take your quiz. And you tell and you've got your your course. Right?

Dr. Morgan | Yes, I coach the Empowered, Secure and Loved Program. And this is everything you need to become securely attached. And whether you're in a relationship or you're single, it's everything you need, so that you can maintain an incredible relationship with yourself. And of course with a partner. So yeah, that's that's open for application. And then the podcast. I have the let's get vulnerable podcast. I love that yours. Let's Talk Love invites. They're very complimentary. Yeah. And I and I just want to thank you for all that you do. And I know you have an incredible community, your podcast, the events, it's it's so amazing to see all that you're doing. So thank you. So thank you for hosting me. Yeah.

Robin | Oh, thank you. Well, I'm going to close our podcast with a blessing and it's from your words and your sentiments. So may we all become love magnets, allowing us to transform the way we see ourselves, empowering us to develop the healthy, stable, resilient relationships that we desire. That is our that is a blessing for all of us. And I love it. Thank you again, Morgan.

Dr. Morgan | Thank you so much.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com To become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At real love ready podcast@gmail.com. We read everything you sent. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, and stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening. Take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey