Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 5 Episode 4 with Hailey Paige Magee| Transcript
19.10.23
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Robin Ducharme | Today I had an excellent conversation with Hailey Paige Magee. Hailey is a certified coach, teacher and author who helps people stop people pleasing and find their power. This week, my best friend and colleague Kirsten and I took two of Haley's online workshops. Empowered Boundary Setting For The Recovering People Pleaser, and Using Boundaries to Sustain Complicated Relationships. Both of us walked away with some valuable insights and new tools for exercising boundaries in our lives. We also talked about self care, and the importance of honoring our own needs when we are alone. Something many of us do not practice enough of. Hailey's a breath of fresh air. She is grounded and practical and very easy to learn from. I hope our conversation brings you new learnings that you can apply in your own life. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk love. I am so happy to welcome our guest, Hailey Paige Magee. Hailey, thank you for joining us from Seattle.
Hailey Paige Magee | Hey, Robin, I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
Robin Ducharme | I've been really looking forward to this Hailey. I work, with we've got an amazing team of women and one of my best friends, Kirsten is part of our team. And she helps me with organizing content for our podcasts. And so both of us were busy, we all week, the last 10 days taking your course, a few of your courses. And we've been following you on Instagram for a while. But taking your courses was a whole other level. So I just want to commend you on the work you're doing. You are a certified coach, a teacher and author, you help people stop people pleasing, which I think that is a really I think this is a very prevalent, with especially a lot of women and probably a lot of men. Whatever gender like I think this is a problem that not a problem. This is something that a lot of us deal with. And, and find your power. So I'm so happy to have you on today and really learn all about this.
Hailey Paige Magee | I'm so excited. We're going to cover all the ground. It'll be great. So cool that you like dove in took some of the courses. Yeah, it's fun to get meaty because Instagram can only do so much
Robin | Oh yeah
Hailey | I love being even bring the nuance when I can.
Robin | No. And you're an excellent teacher, I learned a lot, Hailey. So I can't wait to like talk about it. So tell us how did you become a coach and a teacher and author? And like, where did your journey start with your career? And how did you end up where you're at now?
Hailey | Yeah, great question. I think it could say it started, I've always been interested in things that prevent people from using their voices and feeling empowered, that's been the thread. I actually went to school for politics, believe it or not politics and Gender Studies. Because at the time, my thought was, oh, cool, I can help people, you know, use their voices politically, I was really interested in like women's rights and advocacy efforts like that. But to be totally honest, it quickly crushed my soul. Because I found that work really difficult. And I realized, you know, I was like, instead of working on the big picture scale, I was really interested in helping people kind of, you know, find their voice in their relationships, and learn how to advocate for themselves and speak up for themselves in their connections with family, with with friends and with partners. And like so many people who do work like this. It came from a personal struggle, too. That was always something that had been so hard for me. And so once I sort of had that paradigm shift, I was like, alright, well, I think the path I want to take is coaching. Because what I love about coaching is that it is very future focused. And it says, alright, maybe you understand how you develop the people pleasing pattern, you have some sense of what happened in your family when you were young, but like, what are the tangible steps, practical, real steps you can take to break the pattern starting today. And that really hooked me. So I got certified as a coach. And then gosh, I mean, that was over five years ago, and I've been doing this work ever since. And it's been. It's been a wild ride.
Robin | I was going to say that. I see that in five years. In five years. You've done a lot, Hailey. I mean, you've got hundreds of 1000s of followers on Instagram. And you run workshops on a very regular basis. And I can see you're making a big difference in the work you're doing. So kudos. That's great.
Hailey | Thank you. Thank you so much. It's been so cool to because to your point Like, it's been fascinating to learn how people pleasing affects people, you know, like you were saying like all genders, all backgrounds, all income levels all over the world. And it's been so cool to see people from all over the place, come to these workshops and be like, yep, I struggle with this too. So we're in really good company,
Robin | It's universal. So, I would love if you could talk about like your personal story, because you say, like, even in your own experience, everything changed, when you went through a challenging breakup. You were utterly alone, you felt heartbroken to realize the extent to which you'd lost your identity with your ex. And this is very, a very common thing that happens in relationships that can happen. So can you tell us and share with us, how did it look in your life to what did it what did it look like to lose yourself in a relationship? How did you realize that you lost yourself?
Hailey | Oh, my God, that's such a good question. And evokes this like visceral reaction right away. I'm like, oh, I remember that. I remember feeling like, in my relationship, at least, this particularly, it was a pretty toxic one, it was a tough one. Like, I just always felt like I was living inside my partner's head, which I know sounds very strange. But whenever I was with him, it's like, I completely lost touch with my own body, my own thoughts, my own voice and ideas. And it was sort of like, without even consciously being aware of it, I became a mirror, who only reflected back my partner at him. And it was so disorienting, because I'd really historically seen myself as like a pretty confident person, like I was self employed, I'd done well, in school, I was very like, it's not like I was particularly meek or passive, in my normal day to day life. But something about the vulnerability of intimacy and like wanting so desperately to be loved, and seen by someone, I basically, without even fully realizing it was doing whatever I could to be as appealing as possible to this person, and to take up as little space as possible, so he could shine and feel big and important. And, yeah, it was really rough. You know, I remember we would, like argue so much. And it would just be I just really felt completely disconnected from myself. Every time we had an argument or fight, I felt like I'd lost everything. I felt like I had no solid ground to stand on, because I got so much of my identity from being his person, so to speak. And when that breakup happened, you know, he sort of realized our relationship was unhealthy, and he wasn't happy. And he ended it, which at the time, I was so devastated. I mean, just wrecked, that was still looking back, that was one of the hardest things I've ever been through. I felt like I had nothing left to hold on to. And while those couple months of healing from that breakup, were just like, absolutely horrible. It was by far the best thing that ever happened to me. Because it was only by losing that relationship that I was able to really recognize, like you said, Robin, like the extent to which I'd lost myself in it. And I realized, I was like, I can't keep doing this. It's not healthy for me, I have no firm sense of self. It's not healthy for my partners, because they feel the pressure of being my everything. And that's not fair for them. And so then, I mean, that was the beginning of the rebuilding process of you know, first figuring out who the heck am I? And what do I want, and, and what do I feel? And then as that began, then also bringing that self to my connections with other people through telling them what I wanted setting boundaries, and really, you know, the work that I help people with now, it was a journey.
Robin | Yes, it is. And it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing journey. This is, what I was reminded of taking your courses this week was, how so much of like, when we're relating with somebody, there's so many things I learned this week from you, thank you. But it's like this is about experimentation. This is an ongoing learning, your relationship or relationships change, they morph. And another interesting learning I got was, the deeper we are in our relationships, the longer we're together, like more intimate we are, the more complicated our relationships get. And so the rules change, right? It's just, you're like, we're two different people. And we're, anyways, we are gonna go through all this. So let's talk about people pleasing to begin with.
Hailey | Sure, let's do it.
Robin | I mean, this is something you're helping people with, like this is you're championing, you know, being a teacher and helping people stop this pattern of people pleasing. So give us an idea of where you've discovered people pleasing, like the patterns come from.
Hailey | Yeah, so I define people pleasing is the act of chronically placing another's feelings, needs, wants and dreams at the expense of your own and oftentimes to the detriment of your own. So like that's like the working definition I like to use and people pleasing has a bunch of different origins, and they all share the desire to seek safety. So really, you can see people pleasing is usually an outdated coping mechanism that at some point in the past helped you to feel or be safe. So you can imagine then the different origins. So a big one is obviously, if you experienced, you know, trauma, abuse or neglect in the household as a child, you're more likely to want to please and appease your caregivers, so you can be safe. So that's a major origin. You can also see people pleasing coming up as the origin of like, oppression or systemic violence. Because if you live in a culture that says, hey, people, like you shouldn't be allowed to be here or take up space, you can imagine how in order to be safe, you're going to make yourself as small and appeasing as possible. It's also really common for people pleasing to come from households where active addiction was present. Because in those households, all the attention gets focused on the addict. And you are left to kind of caretaker for that person, and you get very little attention devoted to your own feelings and needs. But something I always like to say too, is that you don't need to have experienced, like big T trauma in order to become a people pleaser. You know, like, it's not just a trauma response, even though it's really common on social media for it to be referred to as one, like, maybe you were bullied a little bit in elementary school. And so you learn that in order to fit in, you could be pleasing, right? Maybe you had a caregiver who super loved you, but was a little bit emotionally distant. And so you learn to put their feelings first. It has so many origins. But what connects them all is the pursuit of some sort of safety, whether it's like physical safety, emotional safety, or social safety,
Robin | Right. And the way I think about it, too, is like at the time, your behaviors are adaptive, like you are you have, you're adapting your behavior in order to be safe, like you said, and but if we're entering into if we're in relationships, where we want to have like an equal footing, and have a healthy partnership, or a healthy relationship with anybody, those adaptive behaviors like they are, they're maladaptive. At that point, if you are, if you are bending to that, that you're doing, like you said, people pleasing, is about giving up yourself to please another.
Hailey | It's so maladaptive. That's the perfect word for it. And that's a real reckoning, I think, because a lot of us, there's a lot of self compassion and being able to say, oh, I see how this really kept me safe before, but now what happens is when we're constantly people pleasing, often we end up attracting people who are attracted to that smaller, less expressed version of us, which then leads us to relationships in which we're unexpressed or unhappy.
Robin | Yes
Hailey | So it is maladaptive. Yeah.
Robin | So Hailey, you give a really, you do a great job of explaining the difference between people pleasing, and kindness. So can you give us the difference between, like, how would somebody differentiate, okay, I'm just really what would be the different like some some characteristics of being people pleasing versus kindness? Being kind?
Hailey | Yeah, this is like one of the most popular questions I get. And I love it, because it is a thin line. So what I say is that what's most important here is to determine your motivation for the act, the difference between people pleasing and kindness lies in the motivation. So when we are people pleasing, there's a couple key things first, it usually stems from some sort of transaction. In other words, I'm doing this for you, so that you give me back something, and that something isn't always like material, it could be, again, I'm giving you this so that you give me safety. I'm giving you this so that you make me feel appreciated and loved. But instead of being intrinsically motivated, like I'm doing it because I want to, we're doing it to get something back. So that's the clearest sign that it's actually people pleasing and not kindness. With people pleasing, there's also a tendency for it to be kind of compulsive or obligatory, as in like, I'm doing this because I don't know how not to, right, it almost feels like I have to do this. If I don't do this, I'll feel terribly guilty, right? So these are all this is all what people pleasing looks like. Meanwhile, when we think about true, just like kindness, genuine kindness, we're not doing it to necessarily get something back. It's intrinsically motivated. We enjoy the experience itself, of giving whatever we're giving. And we're doing it out of a pure sense of desire and goodwill. I'm doing this because I want to, I'm doing this because I love you,
Robin | Right
Hailey | And there's no expectation of necessarily getting something back.
Robin | Right. And so when we're talking about people pleasing over time, like let's say it's happening over and over and over again, even if it's like little things, these little things will add up. It's like little grains of sand, right? And you're gonna fill up that hourglass and it's like, oh, but you're it's like, these are like, these are examples or ways that you're self abandoning. Right?
Hailey | Yes.
Robin | So you do talk about that about self abandonment and recognizing when you are self abandoning.
Hailey | Yes, completely.
Robin | Okay, so can you give us examples of how people pleaser self abandoned based on someone else's behavior? Because, like, I love that I love that you give these really tangible ways that we can actually look at this. So you say, if someone does this, then we act like this, right?
Hailey | Like, yeah, there's like a chain reaction,
Robin | It is a chain reaction, but it's actually, we've all done it. And so we can all recognize these these behaviors, in some ways
Hailey | Completely
Robin | Right?
Hailey | Yeah. And I think what's so interesting about the self abandonment piece is that when we think about people pleasing, we tend to think of it as something that's relational. Like, I do this with other people, I put my needs and feelings last with other people. But so many of us who are people pleasers actually also have a tendency to self abandon, which means we struggle to prioritize our own needs and feelings. Even when we're alone. We struggle to be with ourselves, and to take care of ourselves, even when other people are not involved. Sometimes, because all of this stuff's like kind of stems from a fundamental sense of disconnection from the self. Which is why in fact, you know, people are often like, what's the first step to break the people pleasing pattern, I often advise them regardless of your relationships, the first step is to really practicing honoring your needs and feelings yourself with yourself.
Robin | Like it's so making time here itself. It's like deep self care. So like,
Hailey | That's right
Robin | Can you give us examples of like how somebody is like self abandoning when they're not like when they're by themselves?
Hailey | Totally. So a couple examples, just off the top of my head would be, you know, people who really struggle even if they have the financial means, they may not buy like necessary things they need for themselves. Like, I remember, I always tell the story, because it's embarrassing. I used to have three forks, because I would have friends over and all I needed was three. And every time people were like, you should get more silverware I'm like, but I don't need more like three is perfectly fine. Because part of me didn't believe I was worthy of more than the bare minimum. So I would self abandoned by not giving myself things that exceeded the bare minimum. And this is still something I'm actively working on in life now. Because like you said, it's a process. But others, other examples of self abandoning, even when we're alone would be like numbing out and doing things like compulsively drinking, or using social media or distracting ourselves from our lived experience. And this isn't unique to the people pleaser. I think so many of us struggle with this, right? But still, it's a way of avoiding being with and tending to oneself. So these are just a couple of examples where it's kind of like when we're alone, we struggle to be with ourselves.
Robin | Yep. So an example would be a behavior. If you're with somebody, it's like, somebody, if somebody's making you feel uncomfortable, rather than just being rather than saying something and saying, like, I'm not, I'm not cool with that, like, please don't do that. Right, which we'll talk about how you can make requests. You just may, you might just fane comfort or be polite. And just be like completely, no problem like that. That didn't hurt me that didn't, right.
Hailey | Yep. Like in the moment, even when we're being made uncomfortable by someone. The automatic thought is, how do I smooth this over? How do I make sure they're, they're comfortable? How do I hold all the discomfort so they don't have to hold any? And that's a huge way we often override our own feelings of safety or, you know, other things in a moment.
Robin | Wow. So the other way that we can abandon ourselves, we say yes, when you're already over committed,
Hailey | Huge one
Robin | Right?
Hailey | Yeah
Robin | I stay in interactions when they're being rude to me. Well, we just talked a little bit about that I laugh at jokes and go against my values, that go against my values. Yes. I don't tell them their behavior bothers me. Yeah, that's a, I think this comes down to like, like you said, like, this is the threat of your work. And I think a lot of us have have trouble trouble with this. I know, I'm learning. It's like using my voice. Because I know something's, if I sometimes I'll be like, you know, in a hard conversation. And there's a lot of talking going on from their side, and I freeze, and I can't say anything, but this is not. I'm no longer blaming myself for this. No, it's like, I think this is like my own protective mechanism. And then later on, I will, I'll be like, I'll think all, think all the thoughts that I needed to say when I feel really crappy by the fact that he'd say them in the instance. And then later on, I'll go back and say, you know, but sometimes you just can't use your voice. So that's
Hailey | Yes, so relatable. I just want to like underscore that because I've gotten a lot better using my voice. But there are still times to this day where I have those moments where in a charged moment, it's like I go into that fone state. I just want to please and appease the other person and then an hour later I'm just I have got like a parchment scroll of all the things I could absorb should have said differently. But I love your point too, because I think as we break the people pleasing pattern, it's like giving ourselves permission to experiment and to say, hey, you know what, okay, I didn't say it in the moment. It's kind of a bummer. But I can say it now. It's okay that it's an hour or two hours or even a week later, like, the approach I take is that it's never too late to say the important thing you should have said. You can and should probably say it when you can.
Robin | Yes. And our relationships teach us about ourselves. Right? That is like, one of the fundamental truths about being with other people is that we are learning about ourselves. And one of the other things, the ways you can abandon is by spending time with, let's say, other people to the point of exhaustion.
Hailey | Yes
Robin | So I actually really, I loved your example Hailey, like how you tell the story about how, like, you've learned this about yourself, like you're an introvert, right? And so you do need that time alone to recharge. And so you give examples of like, when you're around people, your people too much, like let's just say like, you're going to an event, you drive your own car, you know, to do this, so that you could leave on your own time, so that you can have that space, instead of being attacked. Like you. You don't have to wait till everybody's done. Like you know, your limit. And you stay within it.
Hailey | Acts like that save my life. Right? Like things like this not like knowing my limit, like driving my own car, or like getting my own hotel room on a trip all these little ways of taking care of myself. I need them. I am an introvert.
Robin | But you had to learn that over time, right, Haley? Like, did you have to go? You might have had to go through this pain of not of knowing Oh, I'm, I'm past my point of exhaustion. And I need a break. And you couldn't you didn't get that break before? So now you know that? Yeah.
Hailey | Much learning, right? And what a gift like that's the great thing about these most uncomfortable moments is that there's always the flip side of like, wow, this is really uncomfortable. But this is teaching me a really important lesson about what I need. And so ways like that of like, even if it's going against the grain, you know, the number of times I've had to say to my friends when we're out like Alright guys, I gotta go, you know, I'm my social battery's drained. And I've dealt with the guilt trips, and I've dealt with the, you know, canal Come on, come on, like, Haley, you're such a grandma like all these sort of like guilting phrases. And eventually, it's just like, I know what I need. The cost of not listening to that inner voice is so much worse than the cost of feeling a little awkward for five minutes. Yeah,
Robin | Good for you. Good for you. So you give advice for recovering people pleasers or even just people pleasers period that are getting back into dating. We have to talk about that. So I you've got a whole workshop, which I didn't take this yet. But I'm going to Haley is your workshop and because we have to do is what we do. Right. We talk about dating all day long with our with our community. So can you give us recovering people pleasers? What advice would you give like just a few things like examples of somebody this dating world and they're like, they tend to be more leaning towards that people pleasing tendency.
Hailey | Yeah. So I think a couple key, like people pleasing patterns to look out for in dating are, first of all, doing what I did in my earlier story where I talked about becoming a mirror. So in order to be more appealing to potential partners, instead of bringing your unique voice or values or ideas to a connection, you simply mirror back what the other person likes, wants and thinks about. And that is actually really detrimental. Because you're setting up for failure, because you're giving them a version of yourself that isn't true. And then you're not able to gauge in real time whether or not this person actually likes or can actually hold space for you with your needs, with your feelings and with your values. Right. And then if you if you mirror then like six months into a relationship, when you finally feel comfortable enough to reveal your true self with your true needs and feelings. It's possible they won't be able to hold you in that or or be compatible with you even so we do ourselves a grave disservice when we don't bring those parts of ourselves to the table early on.
Robin | I agree. Two things came up for me when you said that like number one is this idea that showing up to dating. And I've done this so many so many times. I know there's people out there for sure they've done this is like you just I want them to like me, like you're saying we're saying the same thing. It's like this energy is so invested in the other person that you're not grounded in your own, like power. Like, first of all, I think it's more like an interview. I'm there to I'm not talking about like interviewing for a job, but this is my life. We're talking about it with a heck of a lot that I'm going to be bringing to the table. And I hope that maybe you maybe you are somebody that can complement my life that I can bring in. But this is this is an interview. This is not like me hoping you like me. It's the other way around like right I don't know I don't mean that from this ego.
Hailey | No, like, you need to bring your own selection criteria into this dating interaction, if your only criteria is I hope they like me,
Robin | and you'll be 100 Yes, if your behaviors are shaped in that direction, it's gonna go, it's not going to go in the right direction.
Hailey | It's so true. And so the number of times where like we find ourselves, it's like, oh, man like, and what happens to what's unfortunate is that when we do that, it's common that we'll find ourselves dating sort of in a cyclical way. And emotionally unavailable partners, because we've expressed a version of us who had no needs and feelings. So people who are looking for partners who don't have that many needs and feelings, because they're scared by needs and feelings will data. And then when we repeat this pattern, we end up with this false impression, we think, Oh, everyone's so emotionally unavailable, there's no one out there who's a good fit for me. If we're feeling that the best new approach is to say, from the start, now, I will take up space from the beginning, and see who can hold me there. And becoming comfortable. This is hard, but it's so important with the fact that we will scare people away, when we are authentic about our needs and feelings. And that is a good thing. It's
Robin | A very good thing we are like we it's a weeding out process. And the other thing I wanted to mention is just how important it is, is, is giving this new relationships when you're dating so much time. Like it, you need time to get to know someone. And this is not this is not about the people pleasing. But yeah, I think it all is just like about the self abandoning. It's like if you're jumping in with two feet right from the beginning, and assuming that you know, this person who is literally a stranger until proven otherwise, you need to you need a long time to get to know someone and start trusting and get letting them get to know you. And right. So that's just really, really important.
Hailey | It's so huge. It's also so important, right? Because like only with time, maybe you need to see how they handle conflict, maybe you need to see what kind of space they can hold when you're anxious. And a lot of these things don't always show up in the first couple of dates, right? We do need time, right?
Robin | And so there's another thing that I really valued about your workshop was this principle. And it's about dating, could be is this like false binary. And this could be this could be a true this could be for any relationship, like it could be with a friend it could be with? Well, somebody you're dating, can you explain false binary, because it's like one or the other. But actually there can be like, if we work on our boundaries we work on are the stuff that we're gonna get into next. There, there's a lot of space, rather than Fallout or ghosting, right, which is very common thing and leaving and instead of staying in the uncomfortable,
Hailey | Right, and all the magic is in the gray area. Like I think I find a lot I talk about this a lot, because I feel like social media really lends itself to binary thinking because it's more emotionally charged. But I think the magic of all this work really happens in the gray area. Like when we are trying to exit like toxic or abusive relationships, binary thinking can really help.
Robin | Yes
Hailey | Right? It can really help to say I don't need to explain my boundaries to anyone, it's not my job to take care of your feelings. I'm out of here,
Robin | Right.
Hailey | And for those situations, wonderful advice. However, when we're talking about forming mutual ideally, healthy relationships with people, this sort of black and white thinking about like, I don't need to explain my boundaries to anyone or I need to put myself first at all costs. It's it's not relational thinking like it's not going to lend itself to a flexible relationship with people we love. And this is really tough, because I think when a lot of us have a people pleasing background, at first, we might notice a pendulum swing when we start breaking this pattern. After years of not putting ourselves first or not setting boundaries. Sometimes our pendulum swings to the other side, we're like, it's my turn, like now my needs come first at all costs. I'm setting boundaries with everyone left and right, which is, of course empowering, and a necessary way to step into our power. And the middle ground is where we're going to find those healthy relationships with other people. And what that requires is that other people are willing to meet us there in things like compromise in things like meeting the other person's needs, you know, like it takes two to tango. So the gray area is where the magic happens.
Robin | Yeah. And you teach your course about, about boundaries. And really, it's about sustaining relationships. So yeah, that's what boundaries, that's what boundaries do. That's what boundaries allow us to do is to sustain relationships in a healthy way. This is like the you know, this idea that there are large walls that you can't overcome or fences everywhere. It's like, I understand I understand the fence analogy to protect ourselves. But I love just it's like it just it. I think even that word sustaining. This is about keeping relationships you want. This is about having rules of engagement. And those aren't that's not a bad thing. These are this is a very healthy way to relate.
Hailey | Yes, it's so like I intentionally named the workshop around sustaining relationships, because I feel like nowadays, boundaries are often seen as tools to end relationships, like, oh, I'm setting a boundary, I'm keeping you out.
Robin | Right
Hailey | When in fact, first of all boundaries are necessary in all relationships of even the healthiest ones. And we can love someone deeply and wish to be in relationship with them, while also not making ourselves available for every single type of interaction with them. In other words, like you said, we get to engage with our own rules of engagement. And that's exactly what that workshop and these boundaries are about is like identifying what our rules of engagement are.
Robin | Yes.
Hailey | For relationships with partners and family and friends. And yeah.
Robin | Yeah, so and the other the other thing, too, so we talked about this already, like, the longer this was, I love this learning, like, the longer you're in relationship, the more complicated it gets. I was like, That is so true, right? Oh, it doesn't like it. Complication doesn't. It's not a bad thing. It's just that you know, this person more better and better and more and more, it's just like, oh, like, things are getting deeper. Yes. Yeah. Right. And boundaries are exercise and experimentation. I love this idea how, and I just give I can think I thought about this relationship, relationships that I've had, like, for instance with my mom. Okay. It's like, started out, I was a little girl. And now I'm a 46 year old woman, our relationship has changed over these 46 years, of course it has, the boundaries have changed, the rules have changed, our relationship has changed. That's only natural. And you give this analogy of like a soundboard. Like when you're playing music. And it's like, you're constantly tweaking, and you're experimenting, oh, that boundary felt a little bit broken, or like, oh, I stepped over or she stepped over. And it's like, you kind of feel it. It's like, ouch, or oops, you know, and then tweak, right? You just, or it was just this different language, that approach didn't work. So I have to try this differently next time. Like, it's not without mistakes, or, like, you just have to keep going at it right? Because my relation with my mom is not going anywhere. So like, my behavior has to change if, if I want it to, yeah,
Hailey | Yeah, like if if cutting someone out isn't an option. And for many of us, we don't want it to be an option. That's how I feel about relationships with certain family members for me, it's like, I love you. I don't love all the things you do, or all the things you say. But I do want to maintain a relationship with you. So how can we and I love this approach of the soundboard right? Because it has all these tweaking knobs and levers and you kind of find the perfect sonic balance, you find the perfect balance of interacting, that works for you. And that doesn't mean the relationship is always going to be perfectly comfortable because they never are. But it does mean that we can find a way to disengage from the interactions that feel really icky or bad, while being present and available for the interactions that feel great. And the aspects of this person that we love.
Robin | Right? So let's go through your boundary toolbox. Can we do that? Because I think you I think you I think we have some really great tangible ways that we can really, like you got to muscle up and you have to this is I think about like, I think you give this example of like, you know, we work out at the gym, and like we have to practice. So we have to do the work in order to get better at boundaries setting and boundary, not not only setting but like keeping up your boundaries. But yeah, exercising your boundaries. Right.
Hailey | That's right.
Robin | Okay. So the first is engagement request to change and speak up. Number one is engage. Right. So can you talk about engaging?
Hailey | Yeah. So when we engage with a person for a boundary, it's basically like, we're coming to them and saying, we're using a request, usually, we're saying like, hey, this thing maybe isn't working for me. So we make a request. And when we make a request, it's really straightforward. We're just asking someone to change their behavior, right? We're asking them to do more of something, or perhaps to do less of something. And a lot of us skip over the request step and go right into boundaries. But requests are wonderful because they give the other person the opportunity to know what we need. And to meet us where we want to be met. doesn't always mean they'll be receptive to our request, right? We could ask them they could say no, but at least we've tried and the biggest barrier to this is a lot of people are of the opinion especially in romantic situations of they should just know what I need without being asked.
Robin | Yes.Which that let's talk about that because I think we think about we have we all think this about people that know us really well. It's like they should just know they know me what the heck right?
Hailey | It's like come on and and I get the frustration like I know that feeling so well and it can be frustrating when to us It seems so obvious that the best way to care for us is this particular thing. What I like to remember is that every single person on this planet has a different, like blueprint. They all have different backgrounds, childhoods, cultures, sensitivities, personalities, traumas, you name it, right? All of those are variable in each of us. So of course, the way that I show and receive love is going to be different from the way you show and receive love. And in order for that, to make it work, we have to meet in the middle by communicating it. There's nothing unromantic about telling someone how to love you best in my opinion.
Robin | Oooh that's good, Hailey. Like and I and you have, you have some really nice, like, like, good ways of saying I'm making a request, right. And sometimes, this language is not going to resonate with everybody. But let's just say you're in an argument, and it's getting really heated, and you're not feeling comfortable with with, you know, the tone. You could say, would you mind speaking to me more calmly, simple, you know, they might not, they might just keep on going. You made the request. And then step two, you might be disengagement and walking out. And we'll talk later. Okay, but you tried, right?
Hailey | That's exactly right. And I think generally, my rule of thumb is like, again, in toxic relationships, we might not want to make a request, because we shouldn't have to ask someone who's harming us not to harm us.
Robin | Of course not
Hailey | But in healthy relationships, where there's generally like mutual investment in the other's well being. Give them a shot by making a request, right? If they say no, or they're not receptive, then we move into the next tool. Yeah.
Robin | So it's about being clear and concise when you're making a request. Not this all complicated. There you give an example. There's an example of and I think it may have been somebody, no, I think it was you give really good examples during the workshop. And one of them was this man, who, whose parents were always asking him, like, when are you going to get married, something like it was something around that, right? Just like that question over and over. It's like, you're this age, it's about time. And every time they would just bring this up, right. And he's just like, I'm just so sick of this. I can't handle this anymore. Right. And so I think he did make the request then he Hailey. And, and it still didn't happen, right? They're still going on strong, the next one was, the next the next. So he made the request, and then they did not honor his request that and that's gonna happen. Right?
Hailey | It could happen all the time.
Robin | Yeah, it happens all the time. So number two would be disengagement. Like this is gray rock, where you're like, you're like inert, you're not gonna do a darn thing. You're just like, there are exit the interaction or differentiate, let's talk about let's talk about gray. So gray rock.
Hailey | Okay, so yeah, these are the three tools we've got grey, rock, differentiate and exit. So going grey rock, it was a term coined by a blogger named Skyler in 2012. And the grey rock strategy is basically a way of disengaging from the interaction when you're actually not physically able to leave the space. Right? The best example, I think, in the workshop was the example of this guy who's stuck in the car with his parents. And they are not, they just like, won't stop talking about when you're gonna get married, when you're going to settle down. And so he's not going to like, hop out of the car, because he can't. But when we go grey rock, what we're essentially doing is we're disengaging by like not being present for the interaction. So we're giving one word answers. We're not getting swept into arguments or debate. It's almost like you might imagine like when a robot powers down, it's like, zoom. Like, that's what we're doing. When we go grey rock we power down, and our lack of engagement in the interaction, oftentimes, the person who won't stop just like gets bored and moves on to something else.
Robin | Yeah.
Hailey | This can be a really great way of dealing with people when you can actually physically leave the situation like when you're in a car with them, sometimes annoying colleagues, you can't necessarily leave the space, but at least by going grey rock, what you're essentially doing with your behavior is you're showing them I will not dignify this interaction with a response.
Robin | Yep.
Hailey | And it's different from avoiding conflict. It's kind of this unique thing where it's not people pleasing. We're not doing it to please them. We're doing it to protect ourselves
Robin | Yep. So and then, but their next, another way of disengaging is by exiting the interaction. Like just
Hailey | This one. This one's huge.
Robin | Yeah
Hailey | Like exiting the interaction is kind of your your fail safe, because if you're in an interaction that's not working for you, or making you feel uncomfortable, you can ask them to change but if they don't, you can't control them. All you can control is how close and connected you're willing to be with them in that moment.
Robin | That's right.
Hailey | Right. It requires us to kind of surrender this illusion that we can make someone change their behavior toward us. So exiting the interaction can look like leaving the room, ending the phone call, you know, changing the dialogue. It can look like any way you're sort of exiting whatever interaction is making you feel bad. And a lot of people are like, oh, isn't that heavy handed, like, I would feel so rude if I were to do that. But I think it's important to remember that, like, you've already made a request showing the other person that you're uncomfortable, it's already clear what your needs are. And if this interaction isn't meeting your needs, it's your responsibility to make sure you're keeping yourself, you know, protected, and exiting it like that.
Robin | And I think this is actually quite common in regular conflict with an intimate partnership, or let's just say just any, any relationship that's, you know, a deep partnership or a relationship, it's like, let's just say one person just really wants to talk about it and figure it out. And the other person's like, I can't I can't handle this right now that I'm feeling very flooded. All I can think about is just to get the heck out of dodge, I gotta go for a walk, I have to be by myself. Like, I'm just feeling really overwhelmed. And so a safety mechanism and a boundary is disengagement at that point. It's like, I need to leave the situation, you need to think and clear my head. And we'll get back to this later.
Hailey | And what a lovely way to do that, right? It doesn't always need to be like, I'm outta here. And this really aggressive way, it can even come with a like, you're saying like a disclaimer, like, hey, let's revisit this in an hour, I need to go clear my head, because continuing to engage in that moment wouldn't serve anyone, especially if you're feeling flooded.
Robin | That's right. And so what is differentiate?
Hailey | Okay, so this one is kind of like, if some of the ideas we talked about so far were like boundaries, 101, this would be like a 301. This is not appropriate for every situation. But when we're differentiating, what we're essentially doing is remembering our fundamental separateness from other people, we're remembering that I am me, and you are you. And your beliefs and values and emotions don't necessarily need to be aligned with mine. So it's really more of an internal boundary we're setting we're just remembering our separateness. I know this can sound like kind of murky. So the example I always like to give is, I have a family member I adore. But we have very strong different political beliefs. And I have chosen to continue this relationship because I love this person deeply. However, these interactions are really, really hard for me. And I've tried a million times to change their mind, I've tried to convince them to think differently, it never ever works, right, I've learned that that will not work. So what I've really had to do is sometimes when this person brings up some of these political beliefs in conversation, I really need to pause myself and take a moment and ground in my own body and my own values and say, he's entitled to these different beliefs. And just because he feels this way, doesn't mean you have to react, it doesn't mean you have to respond, you can feel safe and comfortable in your own separateness. And in that moment, I remind myself of what I believe, and what I feel, you know, I come home to myself, instead of abandoning myself, I come home to myself, and remembering that we're fundamentally separate helps me get through those difficult interactions. So it's a little bit murky, but it can be really helpful, especially when we're surrounded by people we have to work together with but feel really differently about something than we do.
Robin | Yes, great. I think this just, it's a very mature, evolved way to think so rather than it is like, I have to somehow convince them of my point of view, or have to use my voice in this situation, you're not going to, you're not going to change that person. We're not here to change people. And this is, so much of what you talked about in these workshops is that reminder, we can't change other people, it's not going to happen. What we can do is change ourselves and our behavior and, and see how that actually can change the relationship. Because we don't have control over that either. Right?
Hailey | And it's such a full awakening when we're like, wow, I really can't control their behavior. So much of people pleasing is about trying to control someone's behavior, or get someone to think or feel or act differently. And it's painful to surrender that illusion of control. And it's powering because then we get to focus all of our energy and attention on what we can control, like our boundries.
Robin | That's right, so the third tool, which is I think, along the same thread of what you're talking about around 301. This is the long term boundaries. Like over time, when you are in relationship with somebody, you are continuously adjusting intimacy, you're adjusting expectations. And with that, sometimes comes you know, pain. And when you because it's like sometimes you're not able to change the dynamic in the relationship, even though you want to have like a sustainable, long term relationship with somebody like a family member, they're not going to change. And so there can be a lot,there can be a lot of pain around this. You know,
Hailey | Totally
Robin | There's an example about them, of somebody on, in the workshop that shared about her sister, right, and how she had these strong boundaries that she had to put up just to protect herself and her integrity and her power. And she's like, I haven't talked to her in two months. I think that was example. It's like, that is heartbreakingly sad, right?
Hailey | There's so much grief that comes along with this, right? Because you're kind of surrendering this illusion of what you wish it would be. And instead acknowledging the reality of what it is and what their behavior is. And that's hard.
Robin | Yeah,
Hailey | You know, and it lends itself to those strategies. So basically, the long term strategies are all about, you know, ok, so in the long term, maybe, you know, exiting the interaction over and over and over again, doesn't feel sustainable. So maybe ultimately, what you realize is that I need to decrease intimacy, big picture with this person, maybe that means you can't see them quite as often. Maybe that means you take certain topics off the table as topics you're comfortable discussing with them. Maybe it means when you do interact with them, you do it for a shorter period of time. So instead of like a two day hang, you do like a two hour hang, you know, all of these, it's similar to the soundboard. It's ways that we kind of make these adjustments over time so that the relationship doesn't take such a toll on us,
Robin | Right? Adjusting your expectations and adjusting your interactions.
Hailey | Exactly,
Robin | Yeah.
Hailey | Yep. And then if you
Robin | Go ahead,
Hailey | Oh, yeah, I'm just gonna say like, and then the final tool, and this is sort of like the nuclear option, right. But if all of these tools don't work, and if you find that over time, the relationship is consistently causing you far more harm or pain than good. Sometimes the only option left is to end or leave the relationship. And that is kind of this fundamental acknowledgement that again, we can't change them. But we can change whether we continue to choose because it is a choice to continue participating in this relationship. That's not good for us. And that comes with its whole, you know, a lot of grief and a lot of difficulty. But it is something that's often in our power.
Robin | It really does. So I just wanted to go through, because you do give some ways that we can recognize when you know whether to end a relationship or not. Right? So we already talked about this, like, has the relationship consistently caused me more harm than good over an extended period of time? Is this relationship having chronic negative impacts on my physical or mental health? Are you always leaving these interactions just feeling completely drained? And, you know, you're just, I did it again, there goes my power. I just feel like complete crap, right? And that's not like, and that's not like, it's not like pointing the finger back to yourself all the time. But it's just like, yew, that wasn't good for me. You know, that did not feel good. And I pull out all the stops. I've tried. I've tried my boundary work. I've been doing my eyes. Stevens, I've tried making the requests. Things aren't moving in, in a forward trajectory here.
Hailey | That's right. Yeah. It's like, look at all these things. I've tried. Like, when you use all the tools, sometimes you just gotta be like, well, you know, I really did my best.
Robin | Yeah. But you do have really, you have really good tools about soothing your discomfort. Right? Yeah. Which I think is very important. And this is about self going back to self care.
Hailey | That's completely right. Yeah, if we don't, this is so in my opinion, like under addressed and a lot of this work, because we can set all the boundaries we want and do all the self advocacy we want. But it is inevitably very emotionally uncomfortable. And if we don't know how to soothe ourselves, through the hard emotions that follow, we will often renege on our boundaries and take back our requests. Because we're so uncomfortable. We're like, nevermind, whatever it takes for you to love me again,
Robin | Like, oh, yes
Hailey | So what we really need to learn, yeah, so like learning how to sit with and soothe through that discomfort, in my opinion, is absolutely just as if not more important than learning how to set boundaries and how to speak up for ourselves. Yeah, you know, there's so many tools for this. But really, I think like, it's, you know, doing like cognitive and somatic tools, meaning like cognitive would be like reframing. So remembering the importance of why we're standing up for ourselves this way, another huge one I like to do is like a future exercise. So, you know, okay, you just set a boundary. And it's really hard and you're sad. But imagine if it were five years from now and you would never set that boundary at all. And you had continued in those same old dysfunctional, painful patterns, you can really see during that exercise, that the pain of staying the same, often far outweighs the pain of changing.
Robin | Right.
Hailey | So little things like this that really keep us grounded and like what values did I embody by standing up for myself, there are so many ways we can sort of center and come home to our own commitment. And then also from the sort of nervous system perspective, it's like the stuff is hard on our bodies. It's hard on our nervous systems. So using any number of like self soothing tools, like, you know, exercise is a huge one for helping eliminate stress. Massage, journaling, like taking a nap even getting a big hug getting a good cry. I mean, yes, I can list them.
Robin | Yes, I was thinking about just, you know, you give example of putting on a funny show and just laughing or going and spending time with your friends or your family, somebody in your life that just you have such a great time with you feel energized by, like, that's a physical and emotional thing you can do to heal to get it out, you know.
Hailey | You need to get it out. And I think you anticipate discomfort, like instead of seeing it as like, oh God, I feel uncomfortable. How do I avoid it? It's it's remembering, just like you said earlier, Robin, like, when we go to the gym, and we have a hard workout we feel sore after and we don't see that soreness as a sign that we shouldn't have worked out, we see it as a sign that we're building strength, right? These emotional soreness is are the same thing. Like, yes, it's normal to feel sore, because we're building the muscle of self advocacy, and using our voices, and it's going to be uncomfortable, but it won't last forever. It is temporary discomfort.
Robin | Yeah I just wanted to go back to how important it is, like you said, to really do self care and self love throughout all of this, because that's really important. It's not all about managing the relationships, it's about managing yourself and making sure that you're taking care of yourself, right. Yeah, but uh, you're putting your mask on first before you put the mask on the other person.
Hailey | Yeah, we have to be like a safe place to come home to for ourselves. Because if we're not, we will always like lose ourselves and other people, like we have to make this home, a safe and welcoming home. It's through those things.
Robin | I really I love that. So tell us about your book coming up. I'm excited about this. Because this, I mean, all the material that you're putting out on a regular basis, and all the teaching you're doing well, thank goodness, it's gonna be in a book, right?
Hailey | This is actually the first like, podcast, I've been able to talk on to talk about the book. So I'm so excited to get to hear about it. But my book is coming out next year in 2024. It's being published by Simon and Schuster. And the title is going to be Stop People Pleasing, And Find Your Power. And basically, the book really walks us through, frankly, everything we've talked about, like this process of first reconnecting with our own wants, needs and feelings, then learning how to bring that more actualized self into our relationships and advocate for ourselves. Also how to, like soothe ourselves through the emotional discomforts of doing so, which is the whole part three of the book is all about that. And then the fourth part of the book, which is kind of fun, as we talk about how breaking these patterns, like really enriches our lives. So talks about play and creativity and learning how to bring a more empowered self to your physically intimate life, and how to practice discernment and nuance when trying to figure out should I set this boundary? Or should I be flexible or fluid? It's I'm so excited about it.
Robin | I can't wait discernment and nuance. Whoo, that's, that's good. Yeah,
Hailey | Lot's of a good stuff.
Robin | Well, I'm gonna close our conversation with a blessing. And yet when these are all your sentiments, Hailey, so I write the blog, we read our blessings based on the learnings that we gained from our experts. So thank you,
Hailey | Oh, how cool
Robin | May we be able to create boundaries with loving intent for the highest purpose of ourselves and others that we are in relationships with. May we understand that creating boundaries are an act of love for ourselves and others. May we understand that boundaries help us strengthen and sustain our relationships, and may we gain enough understanding and knowledge of ourselves to allow us to step gracefully into our personal power.
Hailey | That was beautiful.
Robin | Thank you so much, Hailey, Paige Magee. Happy to have you.
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