Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 2 Episode #11 with Dr. Stan Tatkin | Transcript

22.11.17

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today I shared a conversation with Dr. Stan Tatkin. Stan is a prolific author and researcher. He is a professor at UCLA and maintains a private therapy practice in Southern California. Today we are focused on Stan's book Wired For Love. It is a guide to understanding your partner's brain and presents tools that can help improve any relationship, especially intimate partnerships. I appreciate Stan's work on teaching people to adopt what he calls secure functioning principles of behavior, all based on a fusion of neuroscience, attachment theory, and his many years of clinical experience as a therapist. Stan also has a terrific sense of humor. I hope you enjoy and learn from our conversation.

Welcome to the Let's Talk Love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives and the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. I am so happy to introduce our guest today, Stan Tatkin. Stan, thank you for joining us!

Dr. Stan Tatkin | Hey, Robin, how are you?

Robin Ducharme | I'm just wonderful. Thank you. We just celebrated our Thanksgiving here in Canada this weekend. So we had a long weekendand time with family. It was beautiful.

Dr. Stan Tatkin | Oh, that's right, you're in Canada. Happy Thanksgiving. I know Canada has all these holidays. When we used to teach there. And Tracy, my wife had to make accommodations for you know, for all the holidays that you guys have.

Robin | Yes, I guess. I guess we do. Yeah. So Stan, before we go into talking about your book and your TED talk, and I would like to ask you a question I ask all my guests. Which is, what in your life right now is giving you the most joy? And what is one of your biggest challenges you're facing in your life right now?

Dr. Tatkin | Well, let's see. Aging as one of the greatest challenges, I'll work backward there. Yeah. And one of the greatest joys is I think, my life with Tracy, my, my wife, and my daughter is over here too Joanna. They're doing something today. And, and I'm very happy in my life.

Robin | That's beautiful.

Dr. Tatkin | So yeah.

Robin | I love that.

Can you give us some background, Stan as to how you became a clinician and an author, and you've done, you're a couples therapist, and you've created your school and your courses. And what led you down this path of doing the research and the way you you know, you're teaching about relationships, and, yeah,

Dr. Tatkin | Well, I started off as a musician, when I was a kid, I came from a musical family. And so I was a professional musician until 26. And I didn't start going back to school until I was 29. So I was a late bloomer, and once I went back to school and quit music, I never looked back. I ended up falling in love with this field. So I've been through a lot of different iterations of my career, my professional work, and ended up in couples. Because before that, I was working or tried to work with mother-infant pairs or infant-caregiver pairs to do prevention work, but nobody would come and so I had a hard time getting a clientele at that point. So I shifted into adult pair bonding, and found that pretty much is a very similar thing when it comes to attachment and arousal regulation. And you know, I had already been studying psychobiology and infant brain development and so on, so it was natural for me. And then I just started working with couples and I am still doing prevention work because dealing with couples also helps children. So it works out.

Robin | Yes, of course. And so I finished reading your book Wired For Love. It was really, really, good.

Dr. Tatkin | Oh thank you.

Robin | It was a great book, I learned a lot. And every week I interview a new expert about relationships, and I'm constantly learning more and more Tell us the reason you wrote wired for love because it is different in a lot of ways, then, you know, working through your, your there is definitely section on working through conflict, which is inevitable in any relationship. But you're diving into the neuroscience, and you're integrating attachment theory, and you're bringing in the biology of human arousal. So, tell us how all of these, how or why you wrote, wired for love.

Dr. Tatkin | I, you know, first of all, I'm in a couple. So I have a personal interest. Also, I went through a divorce, which was an extremely painful experience for me before I married Tracy, who's my current wife, someone I've known, actually, since seventh grade science. But, you know, I think when we go through a trauma, like divorce there's, not for everybody, but for many of us, there's a constant, trying to figure out why. You know, why did that happen? And what did I do? And what do I need to learn and understand about that. And so, you know, I confess that a lot of this was also about a personal journey of making, learning from my mistakes, and dealing with regret. And Tracy, both of us come from having previous marriages and learning from them. And I think, together, we have crafted what I call a secure functioning relationship. And so it's as much of a sort of an academic process, a creative burst that I had, you know, in around 2003. When I was I just couldn't stop thinking about integrating all that I had been learning up to that point. And, and putting that together with why my marriage failed, and why this marriage has succeeded. So it's, you know, all that to say, I don't really know how I did this. It's been kind of a journey of passion. I never figured on writing books. Well, I did, actually, my father wrote, and I thought maybe I'd write one book. Just to do that. Yeah. But, but I never would have dreamed, you know, writing nine, which now with the new book that's coming out will be nine. And so. So it's just being swept away, I think, by my interests, my passion and the way my mind works, and, and in loving to teach. So I'm a teacher. And this started off with my teaching therapists how to work with a psycho-biological approach. And that's basically the mind and the body working developmentally, starting with infant brain development throughout the lifespan, and so. And so I found that I just loved the whole process of learning and teaching and applying this in my practice. And one thing led to another that you know, that this kind of carried me through much more complexity, even today, I know more about what I'm thinking about and writing about that I did in Wired For Love today than I did at that time. So it's a constant growth process for me, as well as my students, and as well as people who are reading about PACT. So.

Robin | Well, I loved your, yes, I loved your TED talk as well. And you're so funny, like, you've got a really good sense of humor, which I really appreciate. So, this is a big question, but I'm sure you get this a lot. And actually, it's it lends to the title of your TED talk. What, why are relationships so difficult? I know there's a lot of reasons why, but that's a big question, right?

Dr. Tatkin | Because we're human primates and human primates are essentially and don't get me wrong. I'm a fan of my species. But, you know, where we are by nature, it's in our DNA, warlike creatures, aggressive and self centered and moody and fickle and opportunistic and easily influenced by groups and xenophobic. We're always aware of what's missing, which leads to disappointment and we're always comparing and contrasting, which also leads to envy. And so what could possibly go wrong, right? And so relationships are necessary. You know, we have an existential need to be connected and bonded to at least one other person. But we also are troubled, I wouldn't say troubled. But we're messy animals were smart in so many ways, smarter than any other animal that we know of in the planet, and yet incredibly stupid when it comes to relationships. And a lot of that has to do with the way that the human brain operates. You know, people really don't understand that, you know, that, that we have you no problems with communication that's across the board. Terrible communication when it comes to speech and understanding, our memories are terrible on any given day, not reliable, and our perceptions are constantly changing according to our state of mind. Add to that we're threat animals. And so we're really good at picking up threat cues in our environment. And those threat cues will increase if we actually get hurt. So that is a function of memory, everything we do is a function of memory, we're memory animals. So this then can lead to problems in our interactions, close interactions with others, where we're misunderstanding each other without realizing where we are getting into memory fights, unnecessarily, where we feel threatened by a look by a gesture by a word or a phrase, or, you know, a vocal tone. Add to that our relationships in terms of romantic relationships are what we call primary attachment systems, right? Those are the hardest relationships, I think on the planet, because we're part on new strangers in a symmetrical relationship, but we're always referring our memories are always referring back to our original caregivers, and our original family of origin, which was asymmetric. And so we tend to come to these unions with a lot of entitlements, expectations, and also a certain amount of, of informality. Because we think we're family when we start to get committed to each other. And that's, that's a mistake, right? So we make a lot of mistakes in these kinds of relationships that we don't in other relationships. And also, it has a very long memory. So you and I in a relationship of that kind are proxies, really for everybody else that came before. No other relationship does that as consistently as the primary romantic relationship.

Robin | Mhmm. I loved the introduction of your book, which Harville Hendricks wrote. Harville is fantastic. And he talked about, you know, the brief history of partnership and how marriages have had, of course, reiterations and incarnations, right, where, like he's talking about marriage now as like, almost like a fourth incarnation. And, now it's, it's like now, which is what you're talking about is a conscious partnership, which is it's very new considering the history of marriage, right. And the other thing that I learned a lot about, is just how we're so wired like you talked about in your book, is we're wired for more in our brains, more versus love. Right? So you're teaching how to, you're teaching us how to come from that more loving, conscious, aware place. And it's like how to get there is like really making effort and being conscious of this, we rather than I, that is a, that I think, can we talk about that, please Stan? The I versus we.

Dr. Tatkin | You know, we're dependency animals. We pair bond in herds. And, you know, we live in a culture that denies our dependency needs, but we are in fact, dependency type creatures in the adult realm. When getting into in a free society. Getting into a union, an alliance, a relationship with another adult, we assume and it should be this, that we have equal power and authority we come as a symmetrical unit, not based on love or emotion, hopefully it's based on terms and conditions, deal or no deal. And the systems if they're, if they're to be compared to other unions in a free society are based on shared purpose, shared vision, shared sense of ethics and morality, a shared, you know, set of principles by which how we're going to govern each other. Otherwise, unions of all kind will disintegrate if they don't operate under principles of fairness, justice, and mutual sensitivity. And most relationships, have trouble with this, people aren't thinking about this. And so they break down because of too much unfairness, too much injustice too much insensitivity too much of the time. And, and that will cause the dissolution of of any group, whether it's a team, or it's a, you know, cop car partnership, or it's a business, you know, or a sports, you know, couple that, you know, ice skating team, this idea of a two person psychological system is necessary for the care and maintenance of a union of the kind we're talking about. However, most of us revert to a one person system of me my and I and you, you you under the slightest amount of stress. Actually, sometimes we're that way no matter what. So two person thinking is a necessary condition for inter dependency. Inter dependency means that you and I are entering a union, where we both have the exact same things to gain and the exact same things to lose, which holds us accountable to each other because we're equal shareholders, it must be that way, or there will be resentment, right. And most people don't understand this, you know, we we get together because of love because of religion because of attraction, because, you know, the biological clock is ticking, because our family wants us or, you know, it's an arranged marriage, whatever. But, we don't come together thinking in the same way as we do other unions. And that's, that can be a fatal error. When it comes to this idea of "we do," this is what we do, this is what we never do. So say us both. In other words, I expect partners to co create from the ground up their relationship architecture, their culture, not the one they grew up with, and not somebody else's, but theirs, in particular. And that takes a lot of thinking that takes a lot of working together and co-constructing policies, principles, ways that we're going to mitigate and protect us from each other and our human nature, which by the way, if I didn't make it clear, is not that great.

Robin | Yes. So you break down because there's, there's so much about neuroscience in your book, right, and just understanding the human mind and how we just operate. And you break it down, you break our minds down in between primitives and ambassadors. And you did touch on this in your TED talk, but can you please give us an example of how the brain is wired in relationships and differentiate between those two?

Dr. Tatkin | Well the primitives and ambassadors is another way of saying you know, and Thinking Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman's system one, system two, I mean, in neuroscience, this is talked about quite a bit that there are you know, two systems of operation one is automatic tends to be what we know in our gut with what we already know, in terms of our knowledge base, and it is, is the kind of thinking that is impulsive, spontaneous, definitely there. When we are feeling stressed, we revert to this primitive system that is lightning-fast based on memory. Is survival-oriented, reflexive and automatic, so it's very, very energy conserving, when it comes to having to think but it makes a lot of mistakes. The ambassadors or what Kahneman would call it, system two, is are expensive, you know, thinking that takes up a lot of energy and lots of caloric energy to operate. It is what we do when we're in a novel situation we use, we use the ambassadors when we have to think about what we're doing, or consider the options or use critical thinking. That is also the ambassadors. Error-correcting our somatic experience in the moment, by, you know, telling ourselves, this would be the conscious telling ourselves, but the error correcting is done unconsciously. But let's say, let's say you put your head down. And that reminds me of being dismissed, reminds me being dismissed. But then I can tell myself, well, that's just a memory, that's not really true. You could be thinking about something, you could be looking at your shoelaces, you could be looking down at your paper, it has nothing to do with me whatsoever. And so, in that time I error correct. I calm myself down, I regulate myself with the ambassadors, right? So primitives are what we all use and especially as soon as our heart rates or blood pressure go up to a certain level, we become much more automatic, reflexive and memory based, we shoot first and ask questions later. And this is what gets us into trouble.

Robin | Mhmm. So let's go through some we don't have, we don't have time to go through all of the principles. But there are, I think 10 guiding principles to creating a conscious partnership.

Dr. Tatkin | I probably forgot them by now. I'm just, I'm just now, New Harbinger has asked me to rewrite realized version of so so I just got the copy of the book today. And I'm gonna go through it and probably prune a lot out and add a lot of new things.

Robin | So I would love, or whatever you think you'd like to add to the conversation, but one of the guiding principles is to create a couple bubble, would that be a revision? I don't think so. Because I think it's a very important principle is to have your couple bubble. Can you explain that to us?

Dr. Tatkin | Absolutely. The couple bubble is basically, you know, just a clever idea, an image that you and I are primary attachment partners. Therefore, as primaries, neither of us are going to suffer or like being secondary or tertiary or being demoted, right, we occupy a very special place. And there's something here that's biological that seems universal, that we kind of expect that, even in polyamorous and polygamous cultures. And so, that system has to be protected from the environment, protected from what we call thirds. Third is anything outside of the orbit of that primary system, which exists right in nature always. But the way that you and I operate, in order to protect our safety and security system, we have to have certain principles or ideas that, that do that, protect our union. And that would be putting our relationship first, above and beyond everything and everyone else. Why? Because if we are, if we are in charge of everything, and everyone including each other, we have to have the same information, the left and right hand has to know what they're doing. We need information in order to do business in order to know each other, we have to be able to protect each other in public and private. So as not to injure each other. We have to make other arrangements that protect our system, our union or alliances from being degraded, either from within by creating a problem with either of us, and not taking care of it right away or from outside by other things, tasks, people and so on. This is just about survival here. This is about protecting the Union from each other and everyone else. That's the couple bubble and, and it's necessary thing to protect relationships in the short and long run.

Robin | So there is you talk about thirds, and you just mentioned it, Stan about how I mean anybody, there's things and people that could act as a third.

Dr. Tatkin | That's right.

Robin | I mean, obviously children would be thirds, right? or fourth or fifth or sixth, depending on how many children you have.

Dr. Tatkin | Children, pets, exes, parents.

Robin | I imagine and I think you do say this in your book. But I also imagine in your practice that you have, you're dealing with couples, who, their couple bubble is absolutely under threat because of their differences in how they raise their, how they want to raise their kids, or if there's something going on with this child, and it's just bringing up a lot of challenge between in the couple. And so, how is it and I, and I understand the principle Stan, about how, you know, your union comes first over, you know, but your children are your children. Right? And if you have differences of, how do you manage that with couples that are having huge challenges with children? And of course, their children coming, kind of threatening the bubble?

Dr. Tatkin | Yes. What I meant by putting the relationship first doesn't mean you, you put your kids in a closet.

Robin | No, of course not.

Dr. Tatkin | And that you, you know, go jetting off, you know, somewhere. All it means is that because we're, we're in charge of everyone, and everything as a team, everyone, including our children, depends on us being in good shape. Therefore, we have to be in good order. Otherwise, we're not as effective, we're not going to be as good at our work, creativity, at parenting, at a self care, all sorts of things are going to fail. And so everyone and everything is depending on you and I to be good. To be, to get along, and to be good leaders. That's what parenting is, i's leadership. And so that's what I mean, that's it's a practical, hierarchical way of organizing a system so that we know what our task is, it's very different than everybody else's. Okay. That's what that means. But on, but children are a third, of course, and their job, of course, is to split you and I, even when they're young, they're going to do that our job is to not allow anything or anyone to split us. Otherwise, you and I will get into a fight. And that's not good. So you and I are different is actually a feature not a bug nature basically wants us to have at least two caregivers, maybe more, because a child needs different caregivers in order to enrich the developing brain. So Viva la difference, right? That's never a problem. You and I have different, different styles. But the problem will be is that we're not thinking of our shared vision. Do we both want to raise children that are healthy? Yes. Do we both want them to be good citizens? Yes. Do we want them to be able to stand up for themselves? Yes. Do we want them to be able to deal with a variety of difficult people in situations without giving up? Yes, and so on, and so on. So we agree on our vision for this couples project, which is to grow children up and prepare them for the real world, because they're just passing through, we don't own them. It's a couples project that we are different, is again, something that you and I work on, as we go, as an improvisation, parenting is an improv. Therefore, we're constantly shaping our approach to get the vision accomplished. Neither of us are experts, neither of us are going to be perfect. We're both going to make mistakes and be wrong. That's fine. But it's a process like all couples projects, that we are constantly working as collaborators and cooperating with each other. Each of us generals, right. We're both generals. But when generals fight or argue, soldiers die, we can't afford to do that. So we have to work together. And that's in all things. Otherwise, we don't produce anything. We don't get anything accomplished. We don't solve any problems. We don't create anything new. We're too busy arguing. And that's not smart. Right? So we're talking about a two person psychological system of us and we, we have to work things out constantly. That's good for me and good for you, or it will cause us a problem. And that's a two person psychology system.

Robin | And one of the ways that you coach couples is to learn how to please and see with your partner. Right? And really it's the big the bigger foundation is really knowing, getting to know your partner on those deep, deep levels. And so actually, I was intrigued to learn, you have a different way to talk about attachment styles. So you talk about an anchor, a wave or an island. And I don't know if you've updated those either, but I thought it was a really easy...

Dr. Tatkin | No there's no reason.

Robin | No, I don't think so because I think it was quite an easy way to understand how you would define attachment styles. And so you want to know that about your partner, whether they're whether you identify as and anchor.

Dr. Tatkin | And about yourself.

Robin | Yes, if you identify, can you just go quickly go through the anchor, wave and island for us.

Dr. Tatkin | All this is, attachment is, is basically a subjective sense of safety and security starting from infancy. So I'm going throughout the lifespan, and it especially refers to dependency relationships. So you and I are dating and our attachment systems are not really an issue because we don't, we don't we're not, we don't feel permanent. I don't feel like you're depending on me yet, and I'm not depending on you. But as soon as that begins to emerge, that's when we remember what it is like to depend on someone and that can go all the way back to childhood. If our experience in dependency, made us feel insecure, that is, I either had to give up my independence and autonomy, or I had to give up my secure base and feeling that I could, I could cling and actually have my dependency needs met. Either of those two situations will lead to insecure attachment. And that's a memory, basically of threat, threat, a small t threat. And so what happens if I am afraid of engulfment? I'm afraid of being taken over, my independence being taken from me, my stuff being taken from me, then I will defend myself in a particular way to protect myself that will look very unfriendly to you. And that will, in itself cause problems in our relationship because I'm distancing I'm devaluing of attachment values, I am, you know, keeping things to myself, I don't express myself I don't engage, I distance, I flee before I think about engaging. I'm conflict avoidant, there's all sorts of features that are part and parcel of this developmental trajectory. And having studied babies, as I have, it's not rocket science, it actually makes a lot of sense. This is just an adaptation to our culture that we grew up in. If I'm somebody who was, you know, expected to stay young and dependent, and I had a parent who was there, but then not there, and I started to cling, and then I would be rejected and sometimes punished, then I am going to protect myself, also by kind of distancing and clinging, and always testing you to see if you really love me, and, you know, putting you through the wringer and being negativistic, when you're positive by pushing you away. All to protect myself from being rejected and abandoned. So insecure attachment is not a no vote for relationship, it just makes the relationship more challenging, because of a set of fears that are causing me to behave in ways that are not collaborative or cooperative in a relationship. That's what it is. And so knowing this about you, I understand your movements, I understand your gestures and what you're doing. And instead of making you worse, I know how to actually help you heal that, that problem by knowing what to do most of the time. And the same with myself, if I'm an island and I distance, I cannot be in a relationship with you without understanding that I am such an animal, and that my behaviors while suiting me, in lots of ways, are not pro social, are not going to work in any adult relationship. They worked when I was a kid, but they won't work in any adult romantic relationship. Therefore, I have to rein myself in. So it's, it's really important to know this for the self because I if I behave the way I am accustomed to, I'm not going to be able to be in a relationship without threatening my partner or feeling threatened all the time myself. And that's what that's the only value it actually has. But make no mistake, just being a human being is a problem. We don't need to be an island, an anchor or wave. An anchor is someone who is secure, but someone who's secure is still a pain in the ass. Human beings are disappointing, contradictory, annoying, irritating and a burden up close. That is just the way we are. All people and that there's nothing wrong with that. But we shouldn't be surprised. That's not the problem. The problem is, is being threatening or feeling unsafe or insecure in a relationship because of behavior. That's the problem.

Robin | Yes. And you said it this is like, that's exactly what you're just saying is like, it's fine to be annoying because we're all annoying. But it's when it when it's threatening.

Dr. Tatkin | You just can't be dangerous.

Robin | Yes. When it's threatening the safety and security of the relationship. That's where right? Dr. Gottman, who's done so much research on this. He said the number one predictor of divorce is contempt. Which is, and threatening the relationship? Right?

Dr. Tatkin | Yeah, I'm going to upgrade that. Contempt actually isn't. There are several, there are several top reasons why people divorce. One is that they never built their structure, they are flying a plane that's not fully built. They do not know what their principles are, they do not have a culture and ethos. Because they never sat down to do one, they just, they just go on as if nothing, nothing could go wrong. That's the major problem, no architecture, no structure, no agreements, and no permission to govern each other. That's the name number one. The second problem is, is the manner in which all of us interact when one or both of us are under stress. As soon as we do that, we revert to a one-person system that is pro self and not pro-social, it is not, it's a solo sport, in that sense, rather than a team sport. And I'm no longer thinking of you at the same time, I'm considering my interests, that always reads as unfriendly, and then you and I go to war. That is how it works. And that's the biggest, the biggest problem. We don't understand the primacy of this relationship, we mismanaged thirds. We don't tell each other everything breaking a, the premise that the greatest, the greatest commodity in a relationship of this kind is the free flow of information. Without that, we can't do anything. And then if one of us discovers information, that that person should have known in the past that creates a trauma and a betrayal situation that's very hard to recover from. So the messiness by which we think about relationships, the naivety, the unwillingness to work and, and see the future and put together something that's based on purpose, not feeling, but purpose that holds us to account. Those are the reasons that all relationships no matter romantic, or not, will dissolve in time. And so the reverse is true. The way to protect a relationship, whether family or lover or business partner, is to constantly be thinking in this way, I have to take care of myself and you at the same time, or there will be trouble. That's the formula. Really simple. And really hard.

Robin | Yes. Yes. So one of the things you talk about in the book, which I thought was great, too, is like, there's so many there's so many good tips in here, so many great principles. So sleeping and waking separately. I did't think this would have such a huge impact. But it does make sense to me. Can you talk about that there's studies around this, right?

Dr. Tatkin | Yes, it has. It has to do with sort of in our DNA as co-sleepers, right? We do better when we sleep together. When we put each other to bed and wake each other up. We just do better. We know this is true with children. They need midwifing from wakefulness to sleep, we read to them, we tuck them in, we talk to them, because it's scary. We're ending the day and we're basically going into a near death experience of unconsciousness, right. And that's a little foreboding for us as children but adults too. And then we need to be launched in the morning woken up, you know, with smiles, kisses, hugs and so on. We have rituals that help us launch in the day otherwise we run out of energy, and so we fail to realize that as adults, we have the same need. Because we deny this we think oh I don't really care, you can go to sleep whenever you want. And we can acclimate to that. But once we do start to co-sleep, we become very aware when our partner isn't there. And we don't like it. You know. And so all things being equal, which they rarely are, is it better to co-sleep, go to sleep together and wake up together? Yes, all you have to do is try it for a few days, and you can tell for yourself whether it's better. But then there are problems with snoring and restless leg and, you know, sleep cycles are different. All of that can be actually, you know, remedied, most of it can be remedied. But even if you can't, you still can put each other to bed and then go off and do what you're gonna do.

Robin | Yes, I really liked that. I really like that idea. Like you said, you walk up to the bedroom and hug and kiss good night, love you, I'll be back, I'll be in bed in a few hours. There is, there's a ritual there, I really, I really appreciated that idea. And, you know, you talk about the idea about how rituals really are very important in a partnership. And you've got the welcome home ritual. I mean, it is, these are things that you can implement in your life in your partnership that aren't difficult to do, but really do make a big impact, right?

Dr. Tatkin | Absolutely. And again, the welcome exercise is still the same thing as as putting each other to bed. Our species is quite sensitive to separations and reunions, you may deny that, but if we hooked you up in a certain way, or if we did, you know, some kind of gluco, cortical steroid, read of your urine and blood, we'd find that you there'll be stress hormones when you separate and reunite. So we do have a sensitivity there, whether we like it or not. So the welcome home exercise is a ritual where no matter what we're going to, we're going to hug first we're going to embrace first greet each other first before the kids and the children is a ritual. Because we represent the big bells in the house, they're the little bells, everything rings to us. And in on a neurobiological level, we embrace or look into each other's eyes for a few moments to regulate, co-regulate each other. Because we're coming together in two different states, one person's outside, one person's inside, one person may be revved up, the other person calm, and then we smack into each other. If we reunited properly, the environment would change for us perception changes, because we're averaging each other out automatically, with the eye contact sustained or in embrace just for a minute. And people can just try this for themselves as a science experiment and see if I'm wrong about this. So again, same principle of reuniting properly separating properly. But the reason we have rituals is because we're so damn lazy as a species, we would never do anything good for ourselves or each other if we didn't have rituals. Rituals are a decision to do something whether we feel like it or not, because we decided it improves our lifestyle, it improves our our daily sense of living well, whether it's taking the shoes off when we come in, or praying at dinner, or whatever it is that we do, these rituals are are meant to be pro social, and bring us together and ground us. Otherwise, we wouldn't do anything. And that's the truth of it. That's what religious principles are for. That's what home principles or whatever you you build as a ritual, we must have rituals, or we will never do anything. That's good. Yeah.

Robin | So you're I love this other tip around, you know, you talk about arguing and fighting and how it's obviously inevitable in any partnership, right, that you're going to have conflict, of course, and yeah, but there are, you know, there's there has to be rules of engagement. And then respect, just ways that you can handle conflict where it's about the we, not the I. And I think that's where you, there's, there's a lot of training that we all need to do. So that it's like it's not a battlefield. It's like it's all about how can we come to a win win? And just that guiding principle right there, right?

Dr. Tatkin | Yeah. And, and actually, I think people do need to be trained. We're trained if we're, you know, we're learning to be negotiator. We're trained if we're learning to be a physician dealing with a patient or a therapist with a patient we're trained on when we are go into the armed forces and it's a different kind of training. In Special Forces you are told that the person next to you is more important than you because they're going to save your life. And, and that's a culture that is based on interdependence. That, that our survival depends on each other. Therefore we become best friends, we become, you know, experts on each other because our survival depends on it. So you and I are in the foxhole together, we're a survival team, we decide to pair up, we're a team a union, hopefully, based in survival, first and foremost, because we exist in a dangerous, unpredictable world, we can't be dangerous. Because the world is. So we have to make sure we are safe and secure at all times. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. So like any other union, or grouping where survival is the main game on, it's important to be experts on each other because I'm, I'm in the foxhole with you, I have to know the animal I'm with, I have to know how to regulate you, when you freak out. I'm not gonna leave it to you, I need to handle you so that you can stay by my side and save my life on it. Right. And so we know this when we're when the circumstance forces us to do this, right. Unfortunately, most couples don't realize that their lives actually depend on each other in every which way. They take that for granted. And so they don't think that they have to really be experts on each other or that they have to work collaboratively and cooperatively or they won't make it. But that is the fact. So if I were you, I told a couple sometimes, you know, if I were if I were allowed to bolt their legs together the inside of their legs together for a month without being sued, or go to jail, they would understand this whole idea that this is a culture of we-ism, have to person think it's a team sport, we have to move together or we don't go anywhere. And if we pull against each other, it hurts. Therefore, we have to think in ways that work for both of us, or we can't get anything done, nothing happens and we cease to survive. That is just the way it is. And unfortunately, I can't do that. But that would that would I think encapsulate and give somebody or two people the idea of off secure functioning, it's not really an option. And it's not a luxury. If couples don't operate this way, they're just not going to last or if they do, they won't be happy. We know this for a fact. This works this way in all unions and has since the beginning of time. So it's it's really a hard thing to reorient to this when we're unaccustomed to doing it. And like I said, there are many, there are many barriers in the love relationship, one of which is our entitlements. I shouldn't have to do that. I'd like you to be an expert on me. But I shouldn't have to do this. You know, I shouldn't have to take care of you. I shouldn't have to be the one who is your handler, though I am. I shouldn't, you know, have to keep trying to know you. Because you are a stranger. And we're strangers constantly trying to get to know each other we are not family. And so there are all sorts of barriers to our way of thinking in these situations as couples. We don't think we need to protect each other from each other. So we don't come up with guardrails that would keep us from acting out. There are all sorts of things that are a problem here, where if we behaved in this way, and in a business, we'd be fired, or we'd be kicked off the team, or we would be kicked out of the rock'n'roll band that we're in, because we are ruining, and disturbing. The goal and the mission and the shared vision of the team.

Robin | Yeah. And so the idea when it comes to rewiring your brain, Stan, before we close is, is that I mean, like you said this, this is training its practice. And it's about rewiring, like literally creating new pathways in our brain through our, through new behaviors and new ways of thinking, is that right? And by doing these implementing that...

Dr. Tatkin | Yeah that is the case. Yeah. The only way we can change what we're not changing who we are, you know, we don't go into a relationship to be changed. All we're doing is changing the way we do business. So I am who I am, right? And you accept me for who I am. I accept you for who you are. Otherwise, it's unfair to choose you and to take you, right? But we are two separate animals that have a different history, different culture, different ideas, mindset, we are two different people, we're going to step on each other's toes, we're going to insult each other, we're going to hurt each other, we're going to do things that are unfair. That just because of that, this is a fact. Therefore, we have to organize this in a way that allows us to get along. Everyone has to do this, everyone, and no exceptions. And if we don't do this, then we are going to violate each other, we're going to create what's called threat memory, which accrues over time on and becomes a sort of a snowball effect, where now all we're doing is litigating the past because we never took care of business, we didn't take care of things in a timely fashion, we didn't repair quickly, we didn't make amends as we should have. And now we've accrued a lot of threatened memory, which is going to make everything harder. That is the cascade that we have to watch out for. But it takes understanding that what I am saying here is an idea, it is not a skill set. The idea comes from understanding that you and I are bound to each other, our wagons are hitched, and our fates are tied. Therefore, we have to move and we have to work in a very particular way. Otherwise, we'll keep going to war. And we'll never make it. We'll be those people in a potato sack race that never got off the start line because they're fighting,

Robin | They're running in different directions. It's not gonna work.

Dr. Tatkin | Or the couple that fell down the well. And now you look and you see two sets of skeleton bones. They're in position of fighting each other, and they just could not figure out how to go back to back to get out of that. Well, instead, they fought Yeah. And there you have it. It's Darwinian nature doesn't care. You know, the road is paved, or the graveyards are filled with partners who just don't get it. We work together or we don't work.

Robin | Yeah. Well, I've so enjoyed our conversation, Stan, and I love your book and your TED talk. And I know you've got nine books. So you said you've got another new one coming out soon, which is very exciting. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Or is it a secret?

Dr. Tatkin | Yeah. There's one out now, it's been out, called We Do, instead of I do, or you do, we do.

Robin | That's a great title. I mean, this is exactly what we're talking about.

Dr. Tatkin | Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then the new one's coming out in April next year is it's a big book. It's called In Eachother's Care. And it's actually the first book that I know of that's organized by complaints. And so that's the book. Every section, every chapter is organized by complaints around finances, stepchildren, sex, money, messiness, timeliness, in laws, you name it.

Robin | Oh, that's going to be fantastic. Well, I look forward to reading it. And I look forward to our IG Live next, Stan. I'm just so thankful for your time, and all of your wisdom and you're doing beautiful work in the world.

Dr. Tatkin | I love it. And Robin, you remind me so much of the people I adore that are up there in Canada that I work with that are that are actually collegues. You just have that voice.

Robin | I think it's the Canadian accent.

Dr. Tatkin | But it's also just the timbre of your voice. It's not simply the accent

Robin | Oh nice. Well, thank you. We'll see you soon.

Robin | Please mark your calendars for April 15, 2023. When we at Real Love Ready, will be hosting an in-person relationship summit held in Vancouver, British Columbia. With world-renowned experts who will spend a full day teaching us how to love better and build stronger loving relationships. Buy your tickets at realloveready.com. We will see you there.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey