Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 2 Episode #14 with Matthias Barker | Transcript

22.12.08

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hello, Welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today I had the pleasure of speaking with Matthias Barker, who is a psychotherapist based in Nashville, Tennessee. I took Matthias's couples workshop and I learned so much. His course is about how to talk about what matters with your partner without explosive conflict or withdrawal. Matthias gives us tools for avoiding blame and criticism, and instead communicating with love and honesty, while being mindful of consent. We also discuss personality science, and why understanding yours and your partner's personality traits can help you resolve conflicts. I had a lot of fun talking to Matthias, and I hope you enjoy too. Welcome to the Let's Talk Love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless, of relationship status, We will talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk Love. I am so excited to welcome our guest today, Matthias Barker.

Matthias | Hello. Thank you for having me here.

Robin Ducharme | Thank you for joining us, Matthias. I've been following your work and learning from you for a long time. And I recently took your couples workshop course, which was fantastic. And of course, I watch your daily Instagrams and listen to your podcast. And so it is a great pleasure to meet you. I feel like and I'm sure you hear this from a lot of people that follow you in your community that you feel like you kind of know you because you're just, you're like a regular voice and person that we learn from on a daily basis.

Matthias | That's so kind of you to say, thank you. I really appreciate it. I'm glad it comes off like that.

Robin Ducharme | And your studio, which is I think your home or maybe this is your

Matthias | Yeah, I'm actually in my garage. Yeah, it looks very fancy if you're looking at the video. Yeah, there's like a cat box over there. There's like some boxes.

Robin | So you're in Nashville, right?

Matthias | Yeah, yeah, Nashville, Tennessee.

Robin | Nashville is such a beautiful, beautiful city. And it's I love the music scene. It's just it's so artsy as well. Beautiful art galleries and I really enjoyed my time there.

Matthias | Yeah, it's cool. It's a city that's actually been shifting and changing a lot too. Just with, since COVID and everything. It's on the people moving here. So I'm, I'm happy to be here. It's kind of a renaissance of Nashville, we'll see what it turns into.

Robin | Yeah. So Matthias can you give people, give our listeners a brief, well just tell us about yourself and how you became a psychotherapist. And what you're doing in your day-to-day because I know you're definitely you know, active on social with your podcast and your courses, but you also work in a clinic. Right?

Matthias | Well, I have my own private practice. Yeah, so I'm a psychotherapist, I, I deal with mostly just all forms of relational trauma. And so that kind of covers a pretty wide span of situations. So I do a lot of couples counseling, you know, the traumas that can present themselves within a couple’s situation, either in one or both people having a background, maybe have some sort of trauma that's contributing to some difficulties in the relationship or not. But I find myself talking a lot about substance use and domestic violence and, and a lot of maybe different presentations of hard relationships, but all maybe within the bounds of how do the experiences that we went through in the past, or maybe experiences that have happened within the relationship contribute to the trust or the intimacy that people are experiencing. And so that's very common, um, I do a lot of work with one on one with people as well. So people who want to heal from childhood experiences or people who are trying to work out boundaries they want to set with their parents or I don't know trying to heal a relationship with a kid that where there's been wounding and so I guess my day to day looks pretty different depending on who I'm talking to. One of my favorite parts about the job is there's always a new, you know, conversation to explore. But all of it perhaps having that common thread of how do we heal from the things that have happened to us? So yeah, that's my work as a psychotherapist, I do that probably half the week and then the other half the week I'm doing videos and workshops and I'm writing and have a lot of activity online for different stuff I'm always making. So between that and some travels and speaking, I try to cut back on that and spend more time, I have two really young kids. And so I, I keep that at a minimum, I guess is what I'm saying. But yeah, I do that occasionally as well.

Robin | Excellent. Well, I took, like I said, in the intro, I took your couples workshop. And I just love your approach Matthias, like, I learned, I learned a lot in the course.

Matthias | Yeah. What did you think?

Robin | I really thought it was I thought it was great. Yeah. And it's just like, Okay, I need to know more about this, and this and this. So, I've got quotes from you. And so you say when we bond together, we become a more dynamic force in the world. So the idea that I want, I'd like you to talk about this more please, around how we're wired to bond, but also how a partnership dynamic functions to our benefit, because you talk about that in the beginning of the course and then we can talk about the bonding.

Matthias | I do. You know, the whole course was also kind of undergirded by this idea that, you know, it's, it's beneficial to understand your partner's personality. And specifically to understand the differences in your and your partner’s personality. And so one of the benefits of that, when you have an appreciation for the ways that your partner is different than you is that you can actually take both of your perspectives and engage the world in a more dynamic way. Because you could think it's like, you're looking at a 3D object, from just your perspective, like, you might be able to notice some things, but in some ways that that, you know, as it appears to you, that's a two-dimensional object, you're only looking at one facet, one perspective of that object in your hand. But if someone standing on the other side, if someone comes from a different point of view, they might see things about that object that you don't see what looks like a circle to you looks like a rectangle to them. And then it looks like you're dealing with a cylinder here. So there's a, there's an advantage to bonding and pairing up. And this is just like the principle of any relationship, not just romantic, but having friendships in your life. And you know, living your life embedded within a community of people that you trust, and you care about being a good even just, you know, a citizen of your country or your state, you know, being able to be involved within your community at whatever level is, you know, to everyone's advantage, if we can have everyone's perspective if everyone's voice has a place and can be heard. And we can incorporate all of that, that's, that's to our profound benefit. And so when we're talking about bonding, when we're talking about romantic bonding, we're talking about who's the person that you're matching your life with, and who's going to be in the closest proximity to you both emotionally, physically, just proximately, you know, in your day to day life, you sleep next to them, you know, perhaps whatever, who is the person that you're leaning on their perspective, to engage with the world. And if you are in a deeply untrusting state with your partner or with your spouse, that can be a, it's not just, you know, emotionally tumultuous to go through, but it actually is a disadvantage to just how you engage with the world. So it's almost, I guess in the workshop, I spend a part of the time making almost a pragmatic argument for working through conflict resolution, because it's like, why try? Why work all this out? Why, why go into all these hard conversations and talk about all these, you know, emotionally tense things? Why not just kind of wait it out and just talk about the things we both agree with, and do things that we both kind of like, and then let the other person just kind of live their lives and be themselves? And why do we have to be bothered with all of this, you know, negotiation over everything? And I guess my reply to that is a pragmatic one, well, when both of your perspectives are looking at something when both of you are trying to figure out parenting when both of you are trying to figure out your finances, and both you are trying to figure out, you know, building a house, you're gonna have a way more three-dimensional perspective.

Robin | Yes. And this is, that's one of the things you say you say, a lot of us think that we need to fix. We need to focus and fix our needs and get our needs met. But when in reality we need to reinforce the bond, and when you really go into that, I was like, That makes perfect. It makes perfect sense. And it's a much deeper perspective than it was like, I'm not feeling good about this. My needs aren't being met. Or he or she's doing this. Right?

Matthias | Right. That's the first thing people come into couples therapy complaining about. It's like they're not meeting my needs.

Robin | Of course, they do! It's the other person or my needs aren't being met. Right. But I like and this is mind training. And a lot of the other relationship experts we've been learning from talk about this. It's like this, but this is I think, this is like this it's almost like this bigger consciousness that needs, that we're all kind of circling around now. I love it. I really do. It's like this We Thinking Terry Real talks about it. It's not about you and me. It's we, we have to face this challenge together. It's like almost like this outside thing. And I know it's there's two people here. But it's like the two of us have to be together to face this challenge. Not you against me.

Matthias | Sure, yeah.

Robin | So how do you explain this to couples? Right. Because I'm sure you have to, it's like a mind shift.

Matthias | Yeah, well, I use an analogy sometimes to explain just exactly what you're describing, like, you know, the goal, you know, when you're trying to figure out an argument. It's like, if like, the argument is like a soccer ball, the goal is to kick the soccer ball back and forth, not to kick each other back and forth. You know, it's like, the thing you're trying to solve is the problem. It's the thing at hand, it's the negotiation like I said, it could be the, you know, it's the financial situation, it's what to do about your in-laws, it's what to do about the funeral that you have to plan, it's what to do about the kid that's acting out in a way that you're really worried for their safety, and you're really worried they're making decisions for their life that it's actually going to end up in this terrible place. And so one of you has taken a more passive approach to that, one of you is taking perhaps maybe a more critical and more activated approach to that, both of you are frustrated at each other for how you're acting towards your kid, it's like, it can be really frustrating. It's like, they're not listening to me, they're not seeing where I'm at here. They're not, they're not being there. For me, like, the main complaint is, they're not meeting my needs. They're not doing what I need in order to be okay, in this circumstance. And it's not like, I think that that's wrong. You know, that's not really what I'm trying to convince people of that's a bad thing, or that's wrong. It's just like, we need to pivot our attention to a totally different domain. And that's, well, it's exactly what you just described, it's, how do we come together towards the problem versus being at each other's throats? And, I think the first step in being able to establish that I've always thought is acknowledging that we actually have the same goal. We both want our kid to be okay. You know, and that's actually a really helpful starting point, it seems like a given but it's not always a given, you know, and that'll actually relax a lot of the intense feelings, it's like, we both want to connect physically and romantically. We both want to have a really, you know, I don't know, connected and intimate and fun, romantic life, where we go out on dates, and we're enjoying all these, you know, novel experiences, we both would love to travel, we both, you know, like, you start to nail down what are the things that we actually both want. And then what you find is you often have a difference in strategy. And you think they just don't appreciate what I want, they just don't have an acknowledgment for my needs. They just, they don't care about what's important to me. And I'm like, I often challenge that because at least at the beginning, at least at the beginning of the relationship, you both wanted the same thing. And maybe not all the same things. But I just wonder if like, 90% of it is actually fairly common. Like, It's especially hard when you're in situations like, well, they want kids and I don't. But even in circumstances like that, it's like, zoom out even further, well, what do you really both want, maybe you both want the ability to pursue things that are meaningful and also to feel the freedom to have the flexibility to enjoy those things. Maybe you want a legacy, maybe even the partner that doesn't want kids once a version of a legacy. But they think, you know, pursuing that legacy through their career, or they pursue that legacy through their activity within their community, or their church or something. You know, and so if we can zoom out, it's like, well, what's the overall goal? It's like, well, it's kids. Okay, well zoom out even further, like, what's even the goal of that? Well, I, I, you know, when I was young, I just, I watched my mother and my grandmother, and I watched, you know, just like this family tradition of having kids and passing that along, and, and I just imagined the second half of my life being surrounded with people that I love. And there's a lot of different ways to solve that. You know, one of them could be that maybe your partner didn't realize how much that dream wasn't just attached to the prospect of having kids, but it's actually deeply embedded in how you saw your life from the beginning, since you were young, that some of those experiences are like key emotional, you know, dreams for you. It's not, it goes far beyond just the surface level of, you know, do we want to have to deal with diapers or not. Or maybe on the other hand, maybe there's a way that you could have like a really fulfilling, you know, full life full of community-enriched connection to people that you care about, that aren't necessarily your biological children. Certainly, many parents and couples are thrust into that circumstance, even just from biological, you know, reasons. And you know, that the IVF treatments failed, or, you know, there was something, some sort of catastrophe that resulted that they couldn't have kids, they're not doomed. You know, they can live fulfilling wonderful lives. And we grieve that prospect all the same. But I guess what I'm saying is, is that there's lots of flexible ways to achieve dreams and strategies are flexible. My guess is that the overarching dream, the overarching values that drive your life are actually fairly shared, that we often share that with the vast majority of humanity. And we especially share that with people that we partner our lives to in whatever degree.

Robin | So, and you do use the word negotiation rather than conflict a lot, which I'm like, Yeah, okay, this is and if you can come at it from this approach that we're talking about, the we approach, then you can look at a lot of these differences that you have, as, okay, we gotta negotiate this. Right? And what you do teach, which is great, is that you want if you really want to talk about the things that matter most to you, you want to do that in an honest and a loving way. Right? Okay, so how do you and because this is the other thing too. You also talk about consent. This is something that I was like, I don't really think a lot about, but this is an important part of your negotiation or conflict resolution. Can we talk about that, Matthias? You know, obviously, the honesty part and the most loving part and consent, why is consent so important? And what happens if you don't have consent?

Matthias | Absolutely. Well, I mean, that's, that's a bit of a strange idea, probably, for people listening that don't have the full context of it, I guess, the idea is you want your partner to feel completely onboard and completely excited about the solution that they have, and you don't want, you don't want people to be agreeing with you out of appeasement or out of guilt. Because that doesn't protect their ability to give full consent. I guess that's that's my point in that moment. So like, if I'm just guilt tripping you into having sex, then, you know, like, it's not like that person super excited about that experience. It's not like that's actually a close emotional encounter. It's like that person, there was a part of that person that wasn't allowed to come to the table and negotiate. And, and I guess, you know, within the honesty, there's kind of like that model within the workshop that I break down that what you really want to start with, is you want to start with being honest, you don't want to avoid the fight, you don't want to just like push it off, you don't want to just kind of discard your experience that that isn't really helpful, either. For the reasons we laid out at the beginning of this podcast, well, you know, you want both perspectives, to be able to be engaging the problems that are often very complex, you want to minds, you know, set on that problem, not just one. And then you know, from that point, you have to do it in a loving way. And the way that I break that down, I have a few different ways, but one of them is that you don't, you know, embed it with lots of accusation and criticism. It's really hard for someone to be able to absorb what you're trying to say. And to negotiate through different strategies when they're being attacked constantly. And the reality is like they might merit to the attack, like, you know, when you say like, you're always late. That might completely be the case, that might be true. But when you infuse those accusations, often it changes the topic of conversation and, then you're kind of off to the races on talking about something else. For example, you come home and I don't know you're trying to get home for dinner, and you're late and then your partner comes at you like oh, you're always late for dinner. And you're like, Oh, I'm not always late. And I was like, Well, yeah, you are you were late last Thursday was like, No, last Thursday, it was just because my car broke down. And like it wasn't just because I was like late and I wasn't organized or something it was because of, you know, like a real reason was like, well, it was this a real reason. It was like, Well, yeah, like I had stuff at work that was happening. It was like gosh you just never really pay attention. You just don't prioritize the fact that I'm here making dinner trying to make sure that things are happening. The kids are going crazy around this time. Like you just don't really care that I'm just having to shoulder all this by myself. Yes, I do. I care that I'm like that about you like I'm trying to get home.

Robin | Yes! This whole argument is just going down. Like you said, it's like, this is so common, though.

Matthias | So common! And what get's lost in that moment is having is you're off on the races on some sort of tangent about like, if you care about the kids being tired and crazy or not. And the thing that gets lost is what time should I be home. That's actually the topic that you were trying to talk about. But then you talked about last week when you were late. And then you talked about the car and then you talked about work. And then you talked about you know, if if one partner senses the urgency of how tired the kids and that you know, you need to come and help relieve them. Like you're dancing all around the conversation. You're not actually having the conversation of what time do we both agree that I should be home. And the reality is when you infuse an accusation when you're kind of blaming somebody, even if it's justified, it is distracting towards that end. And so you need to find a way.

Robin | And it triggers defensiveness.

Matthias | Yeah.

Robin | Immediately, almost right? Because you're like, you're defending yourself. And now it's almost like you've lost that goal of like bonding and connection. You're like, Okay, now it's like me against you. It's just that is the dynamic.

Matthias | Yeah. So, um, and then that flows into the consent piece, because, you know, if you're just accusing people, if you're, if you're using a lot of blame, again, even if it's justified, you don't care about me, you don't, you know, appreciate me you don't see everything that I do at work. When infusing these things, then the other partner isn't trying to help solve the problem. They're just trying to get out of the argument because this is stressful and hard and they're trying to feel vindicated. They don't want to feel accused, and they're trying to defend their own reputation and their own perspective. All these activities are anything but productive in trying to negotiate and so the model that I kind of break down in the workshop is you want to actually say things honestly, but you want to do so in a non accusational way, and a breakdown in the workshop, a different method for being able to do that, and how to speak your truth, but being able to say that in a way that's not an accusation, and then how to maneuver through negotiation in ways that protect the other person, you know, the other person's consent. That's just another way of saying that the other person can be on board, the other person can feel 100% excited and down for it. And they take personal responsibility for that decision. They don't feel resentful later, they don't feel like well, they guilted me into it, they talked me into it, I had no choice. Like, if I didn't agree, they would have been mad for the rest of the night, if I didn't agree they would have been all quiet and punishing and passive aggressive, like you want them to 100% agree because they take personal ownership over the decision. That's what I mean by consent there. It's like, you know, I want you to do this because I 100% am stoked about it not because I feel under duress, not because I feel manipulated, not because I feel like well, you're just going to be a complete hot mess if I don't do it. Like that doesn't lead to healthy negotiation, because all that does is push off the conflict for like six months down the road, when that resentment builds up and builds up and builds up and then well, then you're, you're back in the thick of it, you want a solution that feels good. And then you can like put your stamp of approval on it, and then you can move on. And so that combo, like be honest, do so in a way that's compassionate and loving, don't be accusational. Not even because it's like, morally a bad thing, although it might be but it's like, it's just not very pragmatic towards the end of negotiating.

Robin | That's right. It's not, you're not being productive or pragmatic.

Matthias | Yeah, it's just not in your best interest of it beyond you know, if it's right or wrong. It's just not in your best interest. Because you might feel justified, but that's almost beside the point.

Robin | Yeah. So in the example, you gave Matthias about a person coming home late, and, you know, this other partner is like, Okay, I made dinner. I've been with kids all day, I'm freaking exhausted, and you're late again. So the other approach would be, I feel, I feel upset, and very angry. And I'm physically exhausted from a day that you know, what a day. And I also, you don't want to use so you don't want to use the word like, I feel very disrespected when you're late. Because that's not a feeling. That's a thought, okay.

Matthias | Yeah, I feel like you don't care about me is not an emotion.

Robin | I'm trying to find. No, I feel like you don't care about me. That's, that's because that's an accusation.

Matthias | Yeah. That's not on the wheel chart that they teach you.

Robin | Can you please, as an individual, a couples therapist, please walk me through the right wordage here, the wording around... Right? Like, you know, let's just give an example of a good I feel statement that's not acusatory or blaming.

Matthias | Yeah. And let's just acknowledge too it's hard to think of the right way to word it when you're in the heat of the moment.

Robin | Yes, it is.

Matthias | And a lot of these things can feel clunky and a little bit therapisty and the reality is that these are skills, these are skills that you build up and any skill is clunky when you first use it, and it always feels unnatural. Like that's, that's something I actually prep clients on is like, I'm going to teach you these relational, like conflict resolution skills, how to phrase these things, it's not going to be how you normally would phrase it, how you normally are phrasing it is not working. Okay, so like, we need a new way of phrasing it.

Robin | [laughs] That's why I'm here. Right?

Matthias | Right. Right, right. So I'm gonna teach you a new way, it's gonna feel awkward. But here's the reality is that authenticity is not about what feels natural. It's about what's aligned with my values.

Robin | Oh, I like that. That is we're gonna quote this Matthias that's a good one.

Matthias | It's a good one. Authenticity is not about what feels natural. It's about what's aligned with my values.

Robin | I like that.

Matthias | Because what feels natural might be losing your temper. But maybe what's aligned with your values is expressing the truth behind that anger, but in a way that the other person can receive it in a way that's full of compassion and understanding, yet grounded in the truth. And that's, that's an incredibly hard line to pencil down. And I think the expectation that I can just use something like an I feel statement, and that will solve all my problems. Is not, is not grounded in reality. So when I say here's how to use an I feel statement. What I'm saying is, here's maybe the rudimentary steps to start practicing and you're going to engage it in your own voice and in your own way, and you're going to find that certain things work with your partner and some things make your partner go Why are you talking like that? And then you, you know, you find a different way to say it. And so, you know, the basic structure and this is actually inspired by the Gottman model so that's something I you know, really lean into pretty heavily in my couples work is the work of John and Julie Gottman would be something like an I feel statement. So talking about the emotion you feel and then asking for essentially a positively stated need. And what I mean by that by positively stated, I don't mean like, happy or like positive emotion, what I mean is it's asking for something that you want them to do rather than what you want them not to do. So I could say, you know, to my kid, maybe my kid's you know, running around the pool, and I say stop running. That's a really vague instruction because does that mean standstill? Does that mean walk? Does that mean? You know what, what do you mean stop running? You know, it's so you want to say it positively or you want to say what you should do not what you shouldn't do, but you should do so like hey, Walk slower, you know, or if you're on the phone and your kid's you know bugging you and talking and being really loud, you could yell Shut up. But that's not clear. Does that mean stop talking for the rest of the day? Does that mean, you know, just talk a little bit quieter, does that mean, I can just leave the room and then I can talk at full volume so that mom can be on the phone, like, there's a lot of ambiguity, when you say things, what you shouldn't do a negatively stated need. But if you said, hey, please go into the other room mommy's on the phone, or, you know, like, that's positively stated, it's really instructive. And the person knows exactly what to do, to be able to satisfy what you need in that moment. And so that's, that's the second component is a positively stated need. The first one is to preempt that with the emotion that you're feeling. Because again, what you want to do is you want to draw them into understanding your experience, and you want them to be motivated to fulfill your need, not out of guilt, not out of shame, not out of, you know, duress, but because they warmly connect to you and they warmly see how something's affecting you, and you want them changing because they care about you. And they do, but it's hard to access that with a lot of accusations. So something like hey, you know, I've been trying to like, manage the kids and get stuff ready for dinner, I've been trying to like cook all this and now the meal is cold like you got home 30 minutes late. And you know how like fried chicken kind of gets like soggy after a while? So I'm really disappointed because I spent like two hours trying to make this chicken and like, you know, like marinating it and all this different stuff. And now it's soggy and it's not going to be as good. I feel super like, honestly depressed about dinner. And then I feel anxious about what to do about the kids.

Robin | I was excited and now depressed.

Matthias | Yeah. I'm just depressed. Like, I am so disappointed you weren't home on time, I wanted to share this great meal with you, I wanted you to eat it fresh. Because I was so excited. I spent a lot of time planning and making it for you. Next time, I need you to be home on time, or at least let me know if you're going to be late, so that I can make this meal fresh for you. Because I'm really excited. And honestly, I could really use the help with the kids as well, if you could come in and immediately grab the kids so I can finish dinner and put things on the plate. That would make my evening so much better. Can you see how you got to say everything that you felt?

Robin | I really like that. Really good.

Matthias | Yeah, but felt really different. It was an invitation into strategy.

Robin | Yeah. Now I know myself, Matthias, and let me just say, these are the skills that I am working on. Really, it's like you said it's a skill. All of this is really. And I think for myself because I'm a very emotionally charged person. Like if you know, if I get if I'm upset about something, it's like, I would probably, I'm going to do my best to do the I feel statement. And then I'd be like, I'm going to be back in like, you know, 5-10 minutes after I've cooled down, and then we'll eat. How about that?

Matthias | Brilliant.

Robin | I need to take a break.

Matthias | Yeah, I don't know where the quote came from but I heard someone say once that the antidote to anger is delay.

Robin | Delay. I like that. I'm not really good at taking breaks either. But just myself, like, if I try to do an I feel a statement in a very, like, I could be like really heated about it. And then I'm fine and just end it and then I'll be back.

Matthias | Totally and I think most people feel guilty about the delay thing, like putting it off because we feel like okay, if I don't bring it up, now, I'm never going to bring it up. And my response to that is like make it deal with yourself that you won't. You know, the reality is that you do need to go in not all hot and bothered, you do need to go in with a little bit of self-control. That is the truth. And so if you're feeling activated, if you're feeling frustrated, takes some responsibility personally to go cool off or to wait for a moment to engage the conversation when you can feel at least like I don't know, 50% activated, not 100%. Because if you go in really hot and heavy it's going to do more damage. And I think a lot of us don't want to just push it off. Because I don't want to avoid the emotion. I don't want to repress it. Like it's not fair that I have to put up with this. Like he deserves to hear it. And I'm like, Yeah, 100% just delay it just a little bit. Because if you can go in with a cooler emotional temperature, then you're actually going to get more of what you want. It's not like, because he deserves you being nicer or something, or she deserves you being nicer or something. It's, it's like you, yeah, you want to approach it honestly, you want to approach it compassionately, kindly. You want to approach it in a way that invites them into your positively stated need out of their own will not because they feel guilted or, you know, whatever. You want to respect their consent is another way to think about that.

Robin | Yeah, so I loved how your workshop and you talked about this in the beginning to Matthias about how you teach. And I think this is so good about personality styles. And I've never really focused a lot I've never really, you know, because I mean, every week we interview a different relationship expert, and I'm like, not a lot are talking about personality differences and how it's like, this is how a lot of who we are, how we are is because we're wired that way. It's just like this is part of who I am. Right? And it's putting the focus on that part of like how important that is. Like we're just different people with different backgrounds, the way we were raised is so different, different cultures and just like personality quirks just like and okay, so and this was a new I'd never heard of the Big Five personality, is it types? Traits?

Matthias | Yeah, Big Five Personality Traits. Yep.

Robin | Yes. I'd never heard of that before.

Matthias | The Big Five Personality Model.

Robin | Yes. So I want people to take your course but I just thought this was a very, so the acronym's OCEAN, right?

Matthias | Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So it's made up of like five different traits openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Yeah, it's a great personality model. The reason that I shared it in the course was because we moralize the intersections of our personalities. Meaning that when we conflict with somebody, we make it about their moral insufficiency.

Robin | This is so. This does happen a lot.

Matthias | Yeah. So if I'm really extroverted, and then my partner's really introverted, it's really easy for me to be like, Why are you so socially anxious? Why aren't you more outgoing? Like why do you always get quiet and stand in the corner? Why don't you just relax? Like, that's, that's the common breakdown of the extrovert of the introvert is like, you just need to chill, you need to relax, yoy need to unwind, hey, when you have a little wine, you can loosen up, why can't you just get there, you know, on your own. And so that's that's moralizing. It's moralizing. It's making something that's about personality temperament into a moral deficiency. And the same thing can happen of the other one. The introvert will usually moralize the extrovert by saying that they're essentially kind of bullheaded and arrogant and they, you know, try to draw all the attention onto them. And they're kind of like trying for the limelight all the time. And they're really not courteous of other people's needs. They're not courteous about how their jokes make other people feel, they'll often make jokes that other person's expense and sometimes embarrass other people in front of a large crowd and not, you know, be very courteous or mindful of how they feel about that. And so, they see the, the extroverts boisterousness is incourteous, rude, you know, unrestrained, and exhausting, you know, and so if you don't, maybe have time to take a step back, and to really do some self-reflection about, am I just a different personality temperament than my partner? And I've been moralizing and turning their differences into moral faults. And I think what you might find is that the majority of your biggest arguments are at the intersection of your personality, and your fights about money. It's not just about someone's a spender, or someone's a saver, that's not specific enough that someone might be high in trait conscientiousness. They're very tidy people. They're very organized and orderly. And then you have another person who's high in extraversion and trait openness. And that's a person who's really creative and loves new experiences. They love novelty. They like trying new things. They're a bit disorganized, they, they chase the moment they chase the vibe. And that's actually what attracted you to them in the first place was because they made your life more fun and interesting. And then you're mad that they're spending all your money. And it's like, yeah, those exist at the intersection of personality markers. Yeah.

Robin | You must find this, this is such a common thing. But it's having that understanding. And that training that you do as a psychotherapist, to understand how the human mind really works. Because, like you said, I think it's like in the beginning, all these things that are so different about your partner that attracted you to them. It's like opening you up to different ways of being and thinking. Right?

Matthias | Right.

Robin | And then once you're with somebody, and you're living with them, and you've partnered with them, it's like, these things that you were so different in the beginning are now like, really like, oh, no, this is they're too different from me, we need to be more similar. And if and then when they're not like you said, it's like demoralizing, it's turning into a moral conversation rather than Well, that's their personality. So you're helping couples to really look at that perspective, too.

Matthias | Yeah. Well, I mean, and it, it's something that's self evidently true once you start looking at it, like, I don't know, like, what's cool is I have people take a personality test called understandmyself.com. You know, so I don't have my own personality test. I'm not a, i don't know, I don't have the training to build a test like that. But there's, there's lots of really qualified tests, there's some that are free.

Robin | understandmyself.com I'm gonna do that.

Matthias | Yeah, that one's like 10 bucks. And then there's, there's a few other ones that are just free on there. And so you take the test and, and I know that I understandmyself.com, they'll do one where you can actually you can take one and your partner can take one and then it compares and contrasts you two and talks about where you're likely to misunderstand each other and where you're likely to understand each other. So that's fun. I mean, fair warning that the site doesn't do a very great job of explaining trait neuroticism. And it just sounds like a pretty negative thing.

Robin | Yes, neuroticism doesn't seem like but you explain it as. It's really like in a simple way. I didn't realize that neuroticism because that's one of the that's the end in OCEAN.

Matthias | Yep. Yeah, well, we never use neurotic as a compliment. That's for sure. So yeah, people are pretty offended to see that they were 90% score neuroticism.

Robin | I'm neurotic?! I didn't know I'm neurotic.

Matthias | This is stupid. Yeah. Like the Enneagram doesn't make me feel this bad. You know. So there's that. But I think that two things about that point, just I know this might feel like we're in the weeds a little bit. But it's worth saying just so someone doesn't misunderstand it. neuroticism, it's really hard to tell if that's like, a core part of your personality is that your. Neuroticism is, by the way, sensitivity to pain. That just means like, if you were to experience something kind of, you know, intense or something maybe disturbing, you would feel and experience the pain of that event to a higher degree than someone who's low in neuroticism. So there's some people that really go with the flow, really relaxed people, you know, their boss yells at them, they don't go home and, and ruminate about it. They're just like, oh, whatever, I guess he was having a bad day, and then just kind of go on. And then there's other people, their boss yells at them and it's like, it messes up their week, you know. And so you could say that someone who, you know, ruminates on that more is higher in trait neuroticism. But it's really hard to tell if that's because of like trauma in the past, if that's like because something happened to you and you got some wounds to heal, or if that's like because temperamentally, you're just a more sensitive person, I find that if it's temperamentally like that you're higher in neuroticism, that doesn't actually work itself out into feeling like high levels of depression and anxiety all the time. That, especially once you kind of heal the wounds underneath of the painful things that you've been through, it makes you a really like sensitive and like a warm person to other people, like you're just really in touch with like the vibe of a room, you can walk in a room and tell if it's awkward, or if it's, you know, if it's really warm, and you can, you are really good at telling if you can trust people, you're good at telling if something safe or not, you're very protective. of other people.

Robin | I think I'm very highly neurotic. I'm gonna take this, I'm gonna take this test, because, but what I'm learning is because I have a coach that I work with as well. And she's teaching me because I know that I ruminate. And I think that people that, you know, you just can't you know, your mind is on a cycle of like, thinking over and over and over. And I'm just like, trying to learn how to not ruminate so much. I'm sure that might be a trait of somebody who is on the highly neurotic scale.

Matthias | Perhaps I say that just because I don't want people to get offended when they take the test and the test tells them they're neurotic. All that says is you experience a lot of negative emotions. You're just you're having a hard time. That's all that says is like, Man, you just didn't think of it, man. And, you know, so that when you see that don't be like, Oh, I'm just the kind of person who's weak or sensitive, or I'm just anxious and there's nothing I can do about because that's just my personality. I'm like, no, no, no, that's the wrong conclusion. It's, it's really hard to differentiate between like trauma-based neuroticism and personality-based neuroticism. It's often the case when you go to therapy, and you have some like, really just some basic skills around how to handle traumatic events and do some internal work and some healing. That like your overall day-to-day experience is really positive and really warm. It's more so the case that you're sensitive to the world around you, and that when things happen in the world, you pay really close attention. And that actually has just as much of a bright side to it as the shadow side. So that's, that's my disclaimer for the big five. It's gonna be fun until you get to neuroticism.

Robin | I'll let you know how it goes Matthias. I'll see what my personality type comes back as.

Matthias | I get so much negative pushback on that test. You wouldn't believe it.

Robin | Oh, do you? Okay. Well, I'll be kind about it.

Matthias | Yeah. It's from highly neurotic people who score high in neuroticism. And I'm like,

Robin | That's hilarious. So you talk about, you know, ways that we can, you know, obviously, at the end of the day, if you're, if you've got people that are in couples therapy or individuals that are coming, we want to improve and grow and increase our connection to the people that we love the most and to ourselves. Right. And really, you do talk about the Gottmans. I did want to mention that my husband and I took a weekend intensive with the Gottmans.

Matthias | Oh, cool. That's awesome!

Robin | With Julie and John, it was fantastic.

Matthias | Oh with them personally? How was it?!

Robin | Yes, it was during COVID. It was great. It was it was incredible. They were in their home, in Washington. And so it was like, you know, it was virtual. I mean, because we couldn't do it in person. It was COVID.

Matthias | Sure yeah. What an opportunity.

Robin | But it was definitely like it was fantastic.

Matthias | Wow.

Robin | And what they teach is, yes, it's the day-to-day, it's the little things and you talk about this, it is this is not. Yes, you can go on these beautiful vacations and plan. Okay, a beautiful date and have these experiences with your partner, which I think are important. Yeah, but really is the day-to-day it's the small things that matter. It's the everyday exchanges that are going to help you keep and build your connection.

Matthias | Yeah, well said.

Robin | Right? And so it's about being invested in what your partner cares about, and you give these great examples about with you and your wife, Paige, and how, like, you know, you were talking about during the workshop, about ice and you're like, learning how to make these beautiful cubes of ice, and like the science of ice and whatever else is like, obviously, well, not obviously but she's like not totally into ice.

Matthias | No, no, she's not. That's so funny. Yeah, I got into making these crystal-clear ice cubes. I wanted like I was making whiskey cocktails. And sometimes when you go to these really like bougie cocktail bars, they'll have this like crystal clear ice, it looks like a brick of glass. And I thought that was cool, I wanted to learn how to make, you know, crystal clear ice myself. And there are lots of different methods. So you can boil the water to certain points, get rid of minerals, you have to freeze it at a certain temperature and take it out at a certain time before it freezes over all the way all this stuff. And I was just talking about how like, it's not that you're taking an interest in your partner's interests, because Paige, she could care less about ice, like I would make her a cocktail and I'm like look the ice is clear! She's like, cool. Does it make the drink cold? And I'm like yeah...

Robin | Exactly. And the drink's great. Thank you. Good ice.

Matthias | But you're taking an interest in why your partner finds it interesting. Yeah. And that's what makes it genuine and authentic. It's like, Well, I'm not going to fake an interest in ATVs, or hunting or, you know, crochet, like, no, you're interested in why your partner finds it interesting. You're asking about your partner's first experience with it, why they found it compelling in the first place, how they got into it, like, and what are some of the memories that they have. of, you know, doing those activities with people that they really care about? Maybe it's that they grew up going hunting with their dad, or maybe it’s that they sewed with their grandma. So it's like, what are those memories tap into that? That's the part you're taking an interest in, and you'll watch your partner just light up. And if you only interface with your partner on the areas that you're both interested in, that's like 10% of your relationship, like, that's not very high. You're leaving a lot on the table.

Robin | That is a really good point. And it's, it's, you talk about intentionality, and how important that is. And you know, I so I learned, I've, like, I'm constantly learning, and I've learned from you for sure, Matthias. So I was like this week I'm going to be more like I have to, I want to be more intentional, and just a little and I, you know, I want to engage with my partner in new ways to keep things you know, going and interesting. So anyways, obviously, the midterm elections happened. And we live in Canada, but my husband's half-American. And so, he's a dual citizen I should say, well same thing. Yeah, but I don't know, I don't really know much at all about US politics, but he does a lot. Yeah, he's an expert. I'm like, Okay, here we go. I know, it's gonna be this intense, long conversation. But here we go. Like, because he just is so interested and intelligent about it, so I do learn a lot from him, in that example, so I'm like, tell me what's going on. Like, I just know I'll get the download and ask more questions. But it's like, he's engaged in that conversation. And he lights up when he talks about these. I'm not interested in it, but I know he is. So that's just an example of where...

Matthias | That's a great example.

Robin | And I'm interested in it. I am interested in that because I know he is too.

Matthias | Yeah. And I would say give your partner the interest and their thing that you want them to take in your thing. Does that make sense? Yes. Like so listen, with the level of enthusiasm to the political banter as you want him to listen to, you know, whatever you're interested in. And I think yeah, when people reciprocally do that. It's just so much more fun. You know, it's,

Robin | Absolutely.

Matthias | You get to show people things that you're excited about. And you get to share it's more fun to to delight in the things that you love with someone that you love. The gift you give your partner.

Robin | That is absolutely true. Absolutely. That's the joy in life. Wow. Well, I've so enjoyed our conversation Matthias. I really, you're just as charming and kind and generous in person, as you are on screen on social and, and you're just a great teacher as well. So I really enjoy spending time with you. So thank you.

Matthias | Yeah, that's so kind to say thanks for saying that I've loved this time as well. You're a great interviewer. It was a great conversation and I'm so thankful that you reached out. So thankful to be on

Robin | Please mark your calendars for April 15, 2023. When we at Real Love Ready, will be hosting an in-person relationship summit held in Vancouver, British Columbia. With world-renowned experts who will spend a full day teaching us how to love better and build stronger loving relationships. Buy your tickets at realloveready.com. We will see you there.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey