Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 2 Episode #15 with Dr. Jamie Zuckerman | Transcript

22.12.15

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Jaime Zuckerman, who is a licensed clinical psychologist and national expert in narcissistic abuse. She is a highly sought after relationship coach for both men and women nationwide who are experiencing or have experienced narcissistic abuse in relationships of all types. Today we are talking about how to distinguish a narcissist from someone who has narcissistic traits. Dr. Z shares narcissistic behaviors to look out for when dating so you can prevent falling into the trap of these abusive relationships. She also teaches strict boundaries to set and ways to heal yourself with a whole lot of love, kindness and compassion while navigating a breakup from a narcissist. She's an amazing teacher and she's doing great work around this topic. I think it's a very important topic. And I hope you gain something from our conversation too. Welcome to the Let's Talk Love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives and the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started. Hello, everyone, and welcome to Let's Talk Love. I am so happy to introduce our guest today Dr. Jaime Zuckerman. Thank you for joining us, Dr. Z.

Dr. Jaime Zuckerman | Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited.

Robin Ducharme | I have been waiting for this conversation and I'm standing right now, I've got a standing desk that my husband gave me and I'm like feeling my power. I'm like we're talking about narcissists today. During these conversations, I'm like putting my black glasses on, I put my love sweater on, on purpose. Because you know, I gotta, you know, we gotta be in our power but also like this is coming from a place of love.

Dr. Jaime Zuckerman | You have to hold strong. This is a rocky one.

Robin Ducharme | This really is though and this is what you do day in and day out is you're working and you're teaching and you're also, of course, a therapist working with people that are dealing with narcissism in their relationships. And my colleague and I purchased and took your course I Left Now What? Healing From Narcissistic Abuse In Relationships, and it was a fantastic workshop. You packed in a lot in those 90 minutes. I was like, holy moly, I was taking so many notes. So I know the power, the power of the work that you're doing Jaime and it's um, it's pretty incredible. And I've and I've been listening to your podcast and learning so much from you. And I think that this conversation around narcissism has really blown up in the last what would you say maybe 10 years? How we're this word narcissism has really...

Dr. Jaime Zuckerman | I would say even less than that.

Robin | Less than that. Yeah.

Dr. Z | I do. I think and then I think the pandemic is kind of what really just magnified it but I think it's been out there for you know, I'd say like a little less than 10 years and then I think especially in the last couple, three years it's really just you know, just kind of exploded for better or worse with you know misinformation sometimes but but it definitely is out there for sure.

Robin | Yeah, but really that's what I was hoping to gain and give our listeners, more insight on this topic and for us to learn more about what really a narcissist is versus a person that may have narcissistic traits or features like you say is not necessarily like diagnosed as a narcissist. So what I thought we go we'd start with like getting some education on learning about a narcissist and then we'll go into you know, warnings like this is what if you're dating somebody these are the signs to watch out for or if you have a relationship with somebody and then if you're breaking up with them you go through so much in your course around healing, which I don't think a lot of people talk about right we are focusing on the other person rather than if you are in relationship with somebody how do you overcome and heal through that because and from what you teach it is such a long rocky road and I just so that's what I'm really hoping we get out of this hour.

Dr. Z | Sure. Yeah. Absolutely.

Robin | So can we go through learning about a narcissist and can you share with us the traits and features and behaviors of a narcissist and how even with some understanding maybe some of our listeners can avoid the trappings?

Dr. Z | Yeah, no. So I think I think there's been a misconception about what narcissism is, you know, obviously, it is somebody that's grandiose in their ideas, you know, kind of this larger than life, but not all the time. So there's different types of narcissists. There are malignant narcissists, where they're, you know, you know, they're, they're the same way they are with everybody out in public, and you know, what you're getting. And then you have covert narcissists, which could be the most lovely, charming people, but then behind closed doors are just monsters. And it becomes difficult to, to know what to look for because there are variations, but I would say kind of the hallmark traits of somebody with narcissistic personality disorder, grandiose sense of self, you know, kind of that means everything's about them, everything relates back to them. They are very manipulative, they are very unempathetic. So there is a lack of empathy. They can fake empathy. But there really is a considerable lack of empathy for the harm that they're causing others. They don't care what they need to do, who they need to hurt, or who they need to step on to get what it is that they want. They're very much in need to control not just a human being but control their emotions, control their thinking. They need to be admired. They need to be in charge. You know, and they are very entitled, you know, if they harm somebody, well, that's not my problem. That's not my fault that you got upset. I'm entitled to this. I'm entitled to have multiple partners. I'm entitled to take this money, it's mine.

Robin | And they are aware. That's a hallmark sign. Right?

Dr. Z | Yes. So there's Yes. So there's variations on this, because, obviously, if you bring it to their attention, they're going to deny it. Plain and simple. But sometimes, you know, a lot of times people have a really difficult, and I understand why it's a tough pill to swallow to know that they know exactly what they're doing. The calculated behaviors, the manipulation, the strategic planning, it seems so automatic, and it seems so bizarre that it would be in their awareness. And so sometimes what I tell people is because it's been going on for so long, and these have been their patterns for so long. It makes the present habitual. So it may seem like it's just kind of automatic for them, and that they're not aware. But when brought to their attention, they're very much aware that they're doing it. Now, they're not necessarily aware of, I'm super insecure, I don't like how this is making me feel so let me project it onto somebody else, not necessarily at that level of awareness, although maybe some are, but it's more they know exactly what behaviors they're doing and why.

Robin | And so you just pointed on, you said something, and this was a learning for me this week was, you say part of them deep, deep down, has a low self esteem and feeling inadequate. And so they do everything to prevent everyone from seeing this in them. Is that true for narcissists?

Dr. Z | I don't think it's true for all. I do think it's true for some. I think that some based on upbringing, and just based on the way that they have decided to carry this with them from childhood into now, some genuinely believe that they are, you know, entitled, the best above the law above others, the rules don't apply to them, whereas others will act the same, but maybe deep down somewhere, they're wounded. And to never feel that wound again, they kind of put on the suit of armor, which is narcissism, nobody is ever going to hurt them again, they will do the hurting themselves, they will have everything within their control. So that never happens. Which is why when you challenge that or when you figure the narcissist out the second they feel vulnerable they can't take constructive feedback. So the second they feel vulnerable, you're gonna get what's called narcissistic rage, which is just extreme anger or extreme manipulation or they will just the silent treatment for weeks they'll pick up and leave, you have no idea what you did wrong. So you do see that when that wound is kind of touched.

Robin | Wow. And of course, gaslighting would be like a hallmark behavior.

Dr. Z | Yeah, right.

Robin | It's like I didn't do anything. It's you. They're not taking responsibility.

Dr. Z | They will never take accountability for their actions.

Robin | And so what about saying sorry, like will a narcissist say sorry? And if they do, like, are they doing it for manipulative purposes or not from a sincere place?

Dr. Z | Correct. So they will say they're sorry if it looks good to the community if it gets them something that they need. So let's say their significant other’s threatening to leave them, they apologize. They agree to couples therapy, you know, they're doing it just so they can keep that person there. There isn't a sorry, that is said without a motive because they don't believe they're doing anything wrong. Nor do they feel they should apologize even if they did something wrong. It's the other person's fault for making them do that, or responding the way that they did.

Robin | Yeah. And so you say narcissists view people as objects. So they will only move towards you if they need something or can benefit in that particular moment. It's such a calculated and this is why I think this conversation is so important Dr. Z is because I think we overuse the word narcissist and we don't understand actually like if you're a full blown narcissist then like this is abuse. This is not like there's an if you're any of you are this way in all facets of your life. And that really shows that. But if you're not, like, you give the example of like somebody that is alpha in their job, like they're really strong, they're CEO, they like what would you give it can you give us examples of like how somebody that has, like quite a few narcissistic traits and like one facet of their life, but they're not translating that into other areas of their lives that we can understand like, okay, that that guy's acting, that person is acting like a narcissist, but they're not really a full blown narcissist.

Dr. Z | Yeah, so I think you bring up a very, very good point that I want to stress is somebody with narcissistic personality disorder, their style of interacting with the world, it's pervasive in every domain. It's not like they're just a jerk with you. Because you guys don't get along and everything else around them, they're not like that with right and even in abusive relationships. That doesn't mean that the person is a narcissist. So all narcissistic, abusive relationships are abusive, but not all toxic abusive relationships are narcissistic. And so you could have somebody, let's say, you know, like, if you were giving a presentation and your area of expertise, you would get up, you'd be confident you'd say what you had to say. You would, people would know that you are an expert, people would know that you're in charge they would know to go to you get their questions. And you would have certain expectations for the people who are listening to you or certain expectations for the people who work for you. Right? When you go home, that shifts that role shifts now your home, you know, now your family and now you're this may not mean your personality is consistent, but you know, when to pull it back when to you know, move it forward, you know when to be helpful and empathetic, you know what to listen versus kind of delegate. So it's, it's, it's not so much that. People that aren't narcissists, you know, can't be like jerks, of course, they can. But it's more about how you take those narcissistic characteristics and how you manage them when you're not in that situation anymore. Because you're not going to act like I can't I don't act the same when I'm working with a patient or I'm giving a presentation that I do with my children. Yes, right. I can switch it up because that's, that's the proper social etiquette. narcissists lack the ability to navigate different kinds of social avenues, they don't care. It's not even that they're not aware. It just doesn't, it doesn't matter. They are the same person, they'll fake it. But they don't. There's like a cognitive awareness, but they don't have that empathetic awareness at all.

Robin | I can think of people and I'm sure we all can think of people in our lives that like, for instance, I can think of, you know, some strong businessmen that I'm close to. And it's like, oh, yeah, like in the boardroom, oh my gosh, like that guy. You don't want to sit anywhere close to him. Like he's cold. He's serious. He's like on it, right? And he has a reputation for being that way. And in his industry, but then you know, at home, totally different story, right? You sit down. He's a kind, loving, very caring, very empathetic, very genuine, and beautiful person. But he's got that side to him. There's two sides. Right? So I guess I actually I can get that. So you can't just label that person as narcissistic, because that's just not the way it is. So you do say this as well. I mean, I imagine that a lot of people with narcissistic personality disorder are not coming to you. They're not coming for help. So how, like I did, I was curious how many people in our society like what is the numbers of this that, like, is it 1 in 100? Is it like, what? Because then how do you have accurate statistics?

Dr. Z | Yeah, that's a great question. That's an excellent question. It's one of those types of diagnoses that unfortunately, is kind of given kind of, through somebody else relaying the behavior types to a therapist, let's say. So narcissists don't come for treatment. The times that they will present for treatment are if their significant other is making them go for couples, which I if you've heard me talk You say, you know that I say I do not recommend couples therapy with a partner who is a narcissist. Do not do that go into your own therapy, but not couples therapy, or if it's court mandated, let's say for co parenting purposes, or substance abuse, DUIs, things like that, but they will not present for treatment unless they are trying to make somebody think that they're trying. Okay. Now, this is where you have to make sure that you have somebody who is aware of narcissistic behaviors because otherwise, it is just a stage for them to perform.

Robin | Yes, a complete waste of time, I was talking to my so my girlfriend that we that I work with about and we took this course or course, your course together. We were talking about one of her ex boyfriends, who was she's like he was a narcissist, and you know, a lot of behaviors that she was sharing with us. I'm like, oh, yeah, I agree. And I'm not a doctor. But I really do think so. Anyways, they did go to therapy, and this therapist was clearly not trained in narcissistic personality disorder. And she said that exact thing. She said that he charmed her the whole time. And there was no therapy happening.

Dr. Z | No. And then your friend probably feels even more crazy, even less validated. And then what people don't realize is you, the person is not going to say too much they still have to get in a car, and drive home with a narcissist. And for those of you who have been with narcissists getting in a car with an angry narcissist.

Robin | Well, what I did learn about what I've been learning from you is like, there's no doubt that if you are in a relationship with somebody, whether it's whatever capacity, whether they're a family member, your partner, your colleague, it is going to be an abusive relationship. Like, how can you possibly have a healthy relationship with somebody that is a narcissist?

Dr. Z | You can't.

Robin | Yeah.

Dr. Z | And you know, and I always tell this to people too, because I definitely get my fair share of nasty DMS, on Instagram when I say this, but you know, it's it for a psychologist whose main job in life is to make people do better, live better, feel more fulfilled, for me to say that takes a lot, right? Like for me to say there will never, you will never have a healthy relationship with them. I cannot stress that enough. You won't. And it's never going to be your fault.

Robin | And there's ways to navigate it. And so we can go through a few of those things. Because obviously, there are some relationships that you know, you know, this person, and let's say they are a narcissist. And they're related to you. It's not like you need to cut that person out of your life, but there have to be strict boundaries. And that's what you teach. It's like, and that's really, really important. So let's talk about dating, dating a narcissist. Okay, so hopefully our listeners who are dating, if any of these behaviors come up, run, run the other way. I really think that these are if you're saying these are telltale signs to identify this person is probably maybe a narcissist, then why wouldn't you run the other way? So can you give us some, please? Can you tell us some signs? Like when you would like be able to say okay, this isn't right.

Dr. Z | Sure. So signs of narcissistic behavior in the beginning stages of romantic relationships, it's gonna feel really, really freaking good. That's, it's gonna feel so good. And it's going to be really difficult to even want to believe that this could not be true. So understand that you're not going to be able to break free from it just because it doesn't feel good. It's not worth it. It's gonna feel incredible. So some of the telltale signs are, it's not just I met somebody and I'm head over heels and like we're seeing each other every other day. We're talking all the time. It feels like a tidal wave. It is massive, like, just sweeps you off your feet. Things like Where have you been my whole life? You are my soulmate. I have been waiting for you. I have been praying for you. We almost have this our own language together. It's like I've known you in a past life. And listen, a lot people say I met my soulmate on my first date. And I say you know, that's amazing. But you're in like the point 0.001% category. You have to keep in mind if somebody is telling you this on date number one, date number two, what are they basing it off of? We're not saying you're not amazing and lovely, but they know absolutely nothing about you.

Robin | You're a stranger in the first place. Absolutely.

Dr. Z | You're my soulmate. I mean like based on what you don't even know my middle name, right? So that's number one. Number two being

Robin | I could be jobless. I could be a total slob at home. I could be all these things. You're not gonna love that.

Dr. Z | Exactly. So there's that aspect of it. There's going to be a ton of interim conversation between dates. I mean, constant texting sending flowers to your office constantly flowers at home, buying you extravagant gifts, taking you on vacation, extremely faster meeting friends or meeting family, it is a whirlwind. This sex is incredible. You know, the attentiveness they're giving you is incredible. You have never been like this before. They just want to take care of you. They start making promises about oh, I mean if we're like this now and date number three, can you even imagine where we'll be in three months? Like, we'll probably be engaged living together. So they make these future oriented future faking type promises to keep the person in?

Robin | Yes. Future faking, watch out for future faking.

Dr. Z | Right. And then the other thing is this, what you'll find is, they will make you feel so unbelievably comfortable so fast with them, that you will feel very comfortable talking about things in your past things about your vulnerabilities that you never would talk about with somebody you just met recently. And they'll say things like, oh, yeah, I don't speak to my dad either. You know, isn't that so hard? Doesn't that suck? And so they start to get you to talk about things that you normally wouldn't talk about. So early or so soon, and they store it right back here. Because what happens is they then use it against you later on down the road when the manipulation starts. If you hear things like all the other exes are crazy, or, you know, they have friends but like they have a lot of acquaintances, but no one really strongly connected.

Robin | That was an interesting one Dr. Z that I was, I was like, mmm, that's an interesting one. Do they have close friends? Because most likely, they tend to have a lot of surface friendships, but not deep friendships, like long-term friendships.

Dr. Z | Correct. And if they have long term friendships, each one has a purpose. So it's more about the purpose that they fill for that narcissist rather than having a long term friendship like my friendship with my you know, a friend from nursery school. It's not the same thing. It's holding on for a purpose to say this is my friend since nursery school because it looks like you're able to maintain connections, everybody is an object to them. What I tell people is when you have these symptoms, you see these things in the beginning, and you really don't want to believe them to be bad because they feel so good. Test it. Because if somebody is really that into you this shouldn't make a difference. So what I tell people to do is say no to somewhere you're supposed to go, and cancel the date. Don't text them back right away, say you were busy. Or say you don't feel like going out because you're tired. But then like a couple of hours later, just run out for a quick dinner with your friends. See what their response is. If their response is considerably disproportionate to the situation, that's something to keep an eye out for. If they get angry at you. If they just stop talking to you for two weeks. That's something to pay attention to, so test it. If they like you they're not going to, it's no big deal.

Robin | Yes. And I don't really you know, we're in the dating process. I don't owe you anything. Like we're still getting to know each other. But if I think I think that this is something that I mean, I've heard this, like one of my best friends was dating a man who within like, I think it was within the first few weeks. They're decorating the Christmas tree with his ex and all the kids. I mean, she's already meeting his kids. He's talking about they're planning future trips. He's sharing his financial information with her. It was a lot.

Dr. Z | That would be a big red flag.

Robin | Oh, absolutely. Okay, so love bombing that would be like the stage of love bombing. Right?

Dr. Z | Yeah.

Robin | Okay. So let's say you are into a relationship with somebody your past that, you know, the honeymoon phase, it could last for as long and the love bombing phase could last for as long as it's going to. And then you said a telltale flip into that relationship with a narcissist is the devaluing stage.

Dr. Z | Yes. So what will start to happen is once they have you, once they have kind of solidified the relationship, they know that that you are vulnerable with them, they know that they have stuff on you. They know that they've gotten you in deep and you're starting to kind of isolate from your friends a little bit and you really haven't seen your parents that much. And you'll start to hear things like oh, you know, your friend Jamie from college. There's something about her I don't trust that you really I'm surprised you really like her. You guys seem so different. And so that stuff starts to happen and things like

Robin | It's like isolation. Right?

Dr. Z | Yes. But it's very, very subtle. And this is what I try to explain to people it because people say how did they stay with them? Why would they stay with them? This is why because if you think of a faucet, it's like this drip, drip, drip over months, years. And before you know it, you turn around and you're drowning. But as it's dripping, you don't realize the accumulation of these things over time. And so it's not like when this switches, all of a sudden, everything's vastly different. It's very subtle and very calculated. And then sometimes when you argue they'll bring the love bombing back in a little bit, never to the full extent, because that's never who they were. And it's almost kind of like a drug addiction model where they keep the person keeps trying to get the person if they could just get back to who they used to be.

Robin | Yes, like in the beginning, we were so in love, right?

Dr. Z | That's right. The problem is, that person never existed, that was fake, the person that they are now is who they are. So they will start to slowly strip you of your self confidence, and they will slowly start to isolate you. So you know, things like, is your mom always so overbearing with you, like, you need to set some boundaries with her. Right? So it starts to kind of separate you from people and then things like, Oh, you're gonna... I like you a lot better without makeup. Oh, okay, you know, and so it's, it's, they start to do these things, very subtle things. And you, what ends up happening is there's kind of like lies by omission and little white lies that the person starts to tell because they went to work they put on makeup, but they take it off real fast, because they don't want their significant other to get upset, and then the significant other finds the makeup wipes in the car. And then, you know, you're lying, and what else are you lying about? And so it grows, and it festers. And it's very tricky, and very manipulative.

Robin | And so controlling. The other thing you talk about is like if you're in a long term relationship, I don't know how the time limit on this, but it's probably different for every relationship, but it's like, the control is so much more like okay, let's have you don't need your own account anymore. Let's have a shared account or just use my account. Oh, forget about that car lease, it should be in my name, you don't need, like, why I'll take care of the payments. And then next thing you know, you have no credit rating,

Dr. Z | You have no credit rating, or you have ruined credit, or you have no access to any of your assets or finances. And that's financial abuse. So when you say like, oh, he said, I can use his credit card whenever I want. Like, I don't even have to pay for my car, he's going to take the lease over or I don't have to work anymore, that just sit sit home and relax. I deserve it. What they're doing is they're setting to setting you up to isolate yourself in all areas. And that's financial abuse and a lot of times people don't realize it in the beginning, because people are inherently good. So why on earth would somebody want to deliberately put you in this situation, but it's so you can't leave.

Robin | Yes.

Dr. Z | And the gaslighting, what they do is where they will it's the gaslighting isn't just disagreeing with somebody and it's not lying. There's a difference. gaslighting is where you deliberately tell the person that what they're experiencing, which is accurate, is not accurate. And so you start to doubt your own perception of reality. And not only is it upsetting, but it's scary. And what ends up happening because you're isolated from all these other people in your world, the only person you have at your disposal to test things against is the narcissist. So the narcissist controls your perception of reality, you don't know what end is up, and you don't even know that you're being abused. And your perception of yourself is just so warped and your sense of self is so stripped down. That's why when people do eventually get out, I'll have people they all say I'm a shell of my former self, I don't even know what my favorite color is. I don't know what music I like, because they've just been kind of stripped of that for so long.

Robin | You're confused, you're full of shame, and you feel isolated. And something that I just appreciate so much is how you are, you know, you're just this is not your fault. I mean, it's just like if you're in an abusive relationship. This is not. You're not to blame. And you say that over and over again, in your work. And I it's so, it's hard to believe sometimes because you're like, how did I I'm a very smart, intelligent person. I'm a loving person. And I'm like, How did I end up in this circumstance? Like, you know, you just feel like, you take you just want to take all the responsibility like I did this to myself.

Dr. Z | I hear that all the time. I have one person. Actually one of my friends that had gone through this. She was an attorney. She was like at one of the top law firms and 20 something years later, she's like, what, where did I go? Like, what happened to me? How did I get here? And it's such a common unfortunate but it's such a common thing to say because like I said, it happens in such a subtle calculated manner that you don't even know what's happening.

Robin | Yeah. And so let's talk about if you are able to distance and break up with somebody that you have been in relationship with, with a narcissist, okay, let's just say that that the narcissist decides I don't want to be with you anymore, Telltale would be like they just discard you like it's just like spilled milk or soured milk, whatever the saying is. It's just like you're out and then it's just like gone disappeared, right? However, if you're the one that decides to leave, then you're in for a very, very, and maybe if they made the decision to can you talk about that because you say that is not a typical breakup? There's a very long process. And it's just because you're not just losing the relationship, you're dealing with the loss of yourself, and the self concept and your self esteem. But it's also it's like, you're, it's almost like, you liken it to a war, right? Like, now you're dealing with another like somebody that really didn't want this in the beginning and they still want to control you.

Dr. Z | Yes. So even if a narcissist breaks up with you, discards you, is done with you, they're never done with you. Meaning they will figure out how to come back somehow, whether it's starting drama because they know it's your birthday. So maybe they just decide to send you a text message that you're a horrible person, or maybe they wish you a happy birthday, or the holiday season's coming up and holiday, it's like a playground for the narcissist. And, you know, they hear you're getting engaged, or they hear you got a promotion, they will do something to make that situation about them. But not in like the I, you know, this needs to be about me, because it has to do with me, they don't like that you're experiencing emotions, bad, good, happy, sad, it doesn't matter without their influence. So it's they want to still gain access to your emotions and your thoughts. Even if they're the ones to leave you. They never fully leave people because they view everybody as objects that they own. They just kind of I always say kind of picture a shelf. And all these objects are on the shelf, and they'll take one down, they'll use it for its purpose, and then they'll put it back up on the shelf until they need it again, could be 20 years down the road. So it's this like rotation. And so it's really for the partner of the narcissist or the family member of the narcissist to be the one to hold the boundary. Because the narcissist never will, never will. They will always check in to see if they have access to you if you leave the narcissist. And, you know, I think on average, it's seven times before somebody actually leaves and it's the only breakup that really requires an exit strategy because it is not a normal breakup. It's not even a normal toxic relationship breakup. It is very different. And so it needs an exit strategy, you need to make sure you have support, you need somewhere to go you need a separate bank account or have somebody have money for you. You. I mean, there's so many things you need to line up for this. They will try to ruin your character, they will

Robin | Like you talk about a smear campaign, right? Defamation of character.

Dr. Z | Yes, they will try to just ruin your name, which is called a smear campaign, they will make up stories, they will put pictures on social media of them with their new girlfriend or new boyfriend immediately. And the reason why they do that is so that they look sane. They look healthy. How could they have done this to you look at them, they're in a healthy relationship. You're the one who's struggling and crying. Something must be wrong with you. They're fine. So you're going to get the wrath of the narcissist if you leave them. But they do that to scare you. They do it to manipulate you. They do it because you have wounded them. I mean the worst thing you can do is leave a narcissist. And I say that to people who leave like you already won. And people that leave narcissists are the most, they're just the strongest human beings I have ever met. So if you've left the post separation abuse, which sometimes to be just as bad as the abuse you endured during the relationship, but that post separation abuse, you can handle it. It's hard. And it's sneaky, but you can handle it if you know what to look for. And you know how to predict it. Once you can predict the blueprint of the narcissist, then you can prepare accordingly and set certain boundaries because you know what's going to happen, you can predict it a mile away.

Robin | And so that's what I thought we would also cover today, please Dr. Z is this blueprint that you talk about because you said like, so everybody's going to have their own patterns, but there there are almost like predictable patterns when you're in that breakup stage or trying to break loose of a narcissist, right, and if you know the patterns. You say, you say I have, oh, and the other thing I did want to talk about is this, obviously your own patterns for healing, and how important that is, like understanding your own patterns, so that you're not going to end up back in a situation with another narcissist. Right? So just going back to, going back to that by itself, you say, I have patients who are so used to the up and downs, the love, hate the volatile, calm and tumultuous relationship, right? And then when you work with their patterns, and they do come up to be dating, again, that often comes up is that they confuse stability, with boredom or lack of love, yes, from the other person, because they're so used to unpredictability in the relationship that they just left. And they think that that's love.

Dr. Z | That's right. That's right. Yeah, that happens a lot. And it may not have been that they were like that going into the relationship. But the relationship taught them that or it could be that's the pattern that they were used to growing up. And so it's, if you're taught at a very early age that, you know, abuse is love, love is abuse. And it's a very kind of, it's just all thrown together in a big pile of bleh. I mean, you're going to be used to that. And so it's not that you enjoy it. And it's not even that you seek it out. It's just that when it happens, it's super familiar. And you know how to handle familiar and we're comfortable with familiar, we're creatures of habit, we all hate change, because change is hard. And so those patterns feel very comfortable and familiar for you.

Robin | Yes. And, you know, I love the example you give around like, you know, if someone's not throwing a vase and it breaks into a million pieces, they must not love me, right? Or it's because it's really intense. And that's just like, oh, this is why I'm so angry. This is why right? And if they're not screaming at the top of their lungs, they must not care, because they're really not showing any effort. So that's just like two examples of just like, you can kind of think in your mind, like, it could see how you could twist that around in your head going Well, that's and if so somebody's not doing that they're not fighting the fight for you.

Dr. Z | And then what they don't realize is the amount of effort it takes somebody to stay calm and speak logically to somebody, when you're in an argument with your partner, that takes a hell of a lot more effort

Robin | It sure does. And so while you're dealing with the narcissistic behaviors of somebody you're breaking up with, you're also learning about your own self and your patterns. And a lot of that has to do with and this is another thing that I'm just really learning more about is nervous system work. And it's like, if you're in relationship with a narcissist, it's like your nervous system is on like high alarm, it's like you talk about like PTSD, like that's kind of the state that you're in or the steady state. So

Dr. Z | Yeah, so people who are in these types of relationships, chronic narcissistic abuse over years, their fight or flight mechanism, you know, our kind of what keeps us safe, right? It's constantly on, meaning their body, their brain, their heart, their blood pressure, their kidneys, literally everything, everything in their body is constantly thinking it's going to die. And that it must protect itself at all times. It's not, it's not making the connection that you know, you're just you're dealing with somebody who's a narcissist, when they come home, your stomach drops and you feel like you're going to throw up. I mean, they don't, your body is not able to tell that difference. All it knows is that you're in danger. And so your body is prepping itself to either fight, flight or just freeze. It's prepping you to do that work. Now the problem is, is when you have chronic abuse over years, the difference between what they're experiencing and somebody let's say with PTSD, so post traumatic stress disorder is an isolated traumatic event, right? There was a beginning, a middle and end. You were a certain way prior to that trauma, you experienced it and now you're having trouble processing it, integrating it into your day to day cognitive, you know, kind of view of the world, right? With domestic violence with narcissistic abuse, what you see is these small, sometimes big, sometimes small, ongoing chronic episodes of abuse, physical, mental, sexual, financial, and it's more of this what we call complex PTSD, which isn't technically a DSM diagnosis, but it's this ongoing trickle of trauma over time, where it does a number on your nervous system. You're gonna see an increase in a lot more kind of like autoimmune disease, poor sleep, joint pain, IBS, migraines because it literally impacts your physical self that is not separate, higher heart, you know, heart disease, higher cancer rates, all of that stuff, because your cortisol levels are through the roof 24/7.

Robin | Yes. And so the healing process involves regulating learning and doing all these strategies and, and I, you know, obviously, if you can get helped by a doctor like yourself that's trained in narcissistic personality disorder, that would be like the gold standard, right? I mean, to work through all of this because it is like you're coming out of a very, very abusive relationship. And if you're, if you're not able to get therapy, then I just hope and pray that people will learn like learn through their Instagram, like get your beautiful journal that can help actually, your journal is about calming. Is it a lot to do with that? Right?

Dr. Z | Yeah. You know, it's also important to I think and this is why I love that, like people like you are doing this that a lot of how you treat narcissistic relationships is preventative medicine, almost. Teaching people the red flags, teaching people what to look for, so that they know and they're aware, so they don't get into it in the first place. Yes. Because that's much harder to get out of once you're further in.

Robin | So let's talk about boundaries. When dealing with narcissists, even if

Dr. Z | I love boundaries.

Robin | I know, and boundaries are so important in every, in every facet of our lives, but especially if you're dealing with a narcissist. So one thing, okay, and we'll talk about. Okay, let's just talk about the boundaries when you are in a breakup with somebody that, that you were in a relationship with a narcissist. So no contact? How important is no contact? And if you and also the difference between no contact if you don't have children, and no contact if you do, because you have to have contact if you're sharing custody with somebody.

Dr. Z | Yes.

Robin | So can you talk about how you navigate that if you're with or without children?

Dr. Z | Yeah, so with children is always going to be more difficult because like you said, you have to make contact. However, if this is a narcissist, right, it's going to be much different than dealing with somebody who's an ass, right? Who's just been an ass in your divorce, and it's just making your life difficult. Narcissistic is, it's different. So one of the things I recommend is if you can't go no contact, obviously, because you need to speak about the kids. Therefore, every single thing you talk about is in writing, nothing verbal. If it's verbal, it never happened. And sometimes courts will have specific court apps. Family wizard is one of them. There's there's certain apps that you can use that are within the court system. So they're being monitored. So I strongly recommend those. You only speak facts. You use no motion words. So it's I'm picking the kids up at three. And if someone writes back, you know, well, you're always late and blah, blah, blah, then you don't respond. It's only facts. That's it. What did they eat?

Robin | Can we go through this please Jamie too, about like, what if it's not about the kids? I was trying to think this is a really, really great skill. I'm just trying to get clear on like, even if you're dealing with a narcissist, like like, that's a colleague, let's just say or like an uncle. Okay. And but you say that one of the greatest strategies is just speaking facts. I was blown away by this when I was like, okay, like how do I do that?

Dr. Z | So this is like this is where this is like my where my total like nerd psychology dorky side comes out. So people don't realize the amount of power they have by changing even just one word that they say to a narcissist. The empowerment you get from setting boundaries even by doing the smallest thing is so amazing when people actually experience it. It's just I love watching that because they realize oh my god like look what I did.

Robin | Please give us an example. We need to learn.

Dr. Z | Yeah. So for example, let's say it's a parent and you know they are saying something like you know, you never, you see them at holidays, "I haven't heard from you in a while." Right in that kind of "I haven't heard from you in a while." "I know you haven't." What can they say to that? "You're right, you haven't." Or "you look really tired." "I am." Because here's the difference. Ready? "You look really tired." "Are you eating or sleeping?" "No. I'm tired." "Yes, I'm busy." And they see that they're getting to you. But if you just give them facts or just kind of mirror what they say, you give them nothing to respond to. So somebody, let's say a mom texted you and she's a narcissist, and she's yelling at you because you ignored her when you saw her, but you're with all your kids, and you couldn't really do much, whatever. And "you ignored me, you ignored me," you don't respond. But if she responds to you and says, "What time is dinner?" "Five o'clock?" "Well, are you going to talk to me now when I see you at dinner? Because you didn't talk to me when I saw you earlier." No response. So it literally can go back and forth, back and forth. But you only respond to fact based information.

Robin | So a fact would be like, "Yes, I will talk to you." That's not because that is a fact.

Dr. Z | I would just say yeah, yes. Okay. Like I wouldn't I always like to think of a rock wall, you know, the, you want to give them a blank wall. Anytime you give them any emotion words, ask them questions,or try to defend yourself with an explanation. You give them things to hold on to.

Robin | No defending.

Dr. Z | Give them nothing. The best way to manage narcissists is to starve them. Of the access to your brain to your thoughts to your emotions, starve them.

Robin | Wow. Okay. gray rock, you say be a grey rock. Really, really neutral. Right? No emotion, like no rolling your eyes,

Dr. Z | That's right. Nothing. No rolling your eyes, no hanging up on them. You know, just very neutral. You give them nothing? And when they can't get the supply from you, they go elsewhere.

Robin | Yes, they go, they try to find a new supply. Okay. So closure. This was something that I learned as well, which I thought was, it's great that you just put it out there, right? You're saying you do not need closure from a narcissistic relationship. And you probably won't get it. Right?

Dr. Z | You'll never get it. Because they know you want it. Yeah. And they will hold on to that for dear life because they know it's controlling your emotions and your thoughts and your behaviors. So you can't give the power of closure over to narcissists and really, honestly to anybody, because oftentimes, even if you do get closure from a non narcissist, it never really feels the way you want it to anyway, and you kind of hype it up and you don't want somebody else to be responsible for your emotions. So you will never get closure from a narcissist for two reasons. One, they'll never give you that control. They'll never give up that control. Two, they don't feel they need to apologize for anything. And if they do apologize. It's because they need something at that moment or they're trying to manipulate something in that moment or they're there's some sort of motive behind it. It's never going to be genuine, ever. So for closure. You don't need it from anyone but you certainly are never going to get it from a narcissist. It's never going to feel genuine and you're still going to carry that pit in your stomach if you're waiting on the narcissist to dictate how you feel.

Robin | Yeah. Well, I hope for anybody that's listening that they'll take your course Dr. Z, because it was fantastic. And you get you just get so much information. And of course your podcast and you know, you do say like, you know, obviously with any breakup, but especially with a narcissistic breakup, like healing is not a linear process. And you and it's normal to still love this person. It's normal to miss them. Right? You'll have waves of grief, but you say to treat yourself with kindness. You've been through a war and post breakup, that war will likely continue. So you just be kind to yourself and give yourself so much and educate yourself on narcissism, which I think, Wow. I mean, I just learned so much, I continue to learn about it. And identifying the patterns and knowing the blueprint of that person's patterns is just, it's such an empowering thing. So that you can look at this more objectively, right? You say like when you're out of it,

Dr. Z | When you're out of it, you can look at it so much clearer and you realize there's such a distinct pattern and such a blueprint that you can use to predict and make yourself feel more in control. And I, you know, and I always tell people you know who go back because people in narcissistic relationships will break up, go back, break up, go back. I tell them, assuming you're physically safe, don't beat yourself up for going back again because it's just like you said it's not a linear process and sometimes it takes going back a couple of times to see that nothing's going to change.

Robin | Yes. And you might go and it's funny because going back, it's almost like this. You tell me if this is true or not, but the stages are probably going to reverse. It's like, okay, now when you get back with somebody, it's almost like love bombing, again, love bombing, bombing, bombing. And then stage two will probably set in where the devaluing is starting again,

Dr. Z | And it'll come in sooner and faster. And the love bombing stage will never be ever what it once was because it doesn't need to be.

Robin | So can you tell us about your book, Find Your Calm?

Dr. Z | Yes. So Find Your Calm and then Find Good Habits is the second one. They are very integrative workbooks and their strategies are based on empirical research. So they're very much focused on mindfulness, Acceptance, and Commitment Therapy, which is kind of teaching yourself how to basically sit with your discomfort rather than constantly trying to do things to get rid of it. Because the more we try to avoid and get rid of our uncomfortable stuff, the more stuck we become and the more engaged in behaviors we are that we don't value. So it looks at your values, are your behaviors in line with what you value? And it's just a lot of good kinds of grounding, exercises that you can do. And you can write them in the book, but you can also just do them. I love them because you could do them while you're in a meeting, no one will know you're doing them, and you could do them while you're driving. And so there are a lot of things that you can do, that people won't realize you're doing but you're still constantly working on yourself. It teaches you how to sit with your discomfort, how to, you know, kind of feel your breathing. And then more importantly, which I think is always the most important part of therapy is okay, I know why I do what I do I have all these skills, now what? So it really helps you kind of plan for future behaviors and how you're going to manage them and strategies to do that.

Robin | Exactly. And people can also go to your website and listen to your podcast. Where else would you recommend to people?

Dr. Z | My website's, drjaimezuckerman.com. And on there there's a workshop tab for different workshops you can take. My books are on there as well. My podcast is It's Me, Dr. Z, and you can get that wherever you listen to your podcasts. And then my Instagram is @dr.z_psychologist and I post a lot of stuff about narcissism, a lot of videos about narcissism on there as well.

Robin | Well you're doing amazing work. And I just want to thank you so much. I like I said all week, I've been learning from you. And we're just like, "this is so good." Like, I feel like I didn't really know anything about narcissists. I thought I did. But now I really know a lot more. And if I've got any friends that are dating, I'm going to be giving them all these tips like "Oh no that's love bombing. Watch out!" Well, thank you so much, Dr. Z. I really appreciate your time.

Dr. Z | Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Robin | Please mark your calendars for April 15, 2023. When we at Real Love Ready, will be hosting an in-person relationship summit held in Vancouver, British Columbia. With world-renowned experts who will spend a full day teaching us how to love better and build stronger loving relationships. Buy your tickets at realloveready.com. We will see you there.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey