Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 2 Episode #2 with Rachel Greenwald | Transcript
22.09.15
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Robin Ducharme | Welcome to the Let's Talk Love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives and the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today I am so thrilled, excited and grateful for this conversation with one of my closest friends in the world, Rachel Greenwald.
And Rachel and I met in 2012 when I was running my own matchmaking company, and wanting to become a matchmaker and dating coach, and I'd researched the World Wide World and wanted to learn from the very best of the best in the matchmaking business. And who did I come across, but our guest today, Rachel Greenwald. And she really is one of the best of the best when it comes to helping people find love, long term lasting, loving partnerships. Rachel, thank you for joining us!
Rachel Greenwald | Hi Robin! I'm so glad to hear your Canadian accent and your voice. There are just so few people in the world that lift me up like you do, you have a very special gift with people. So you are in the right business talking about love, and I am excited to be here.
Robin Ducharme | Oh, I'm so excited. So Rachel is a renowned matchmaker and dating coach who works with private clients across the US and all over the world. You've helped people from all over the world. She is the founder and CEO of Elevated Connections. New York Times bestselling author of two books, Find a Husband After 35 Using What I Learned at Harvard Business School, which we're going to talk about, and Have Him at Hello, Confessions from 1000 Guys About What Makes Them Fall in Love, or Never Call Back.
I love that title. Rachel is passionate about teaching, speaking and consulting. She has been a speaker, guest lecturer and retreat leader for hundreds of corporate and specialty events, workshops and classrooms for over 20 years. And I know from my own experience, in 2012, I flew to Denver, Colorado, where Rachel teaches a matchmakers bootcamp. So I spent five days learning from Rachel. And we're gonna get into some of those lessons today. She's deeply passionate about helping people find their match, she was responsible for over 850 marriages, which includes both her private matchmaking clients, as well as readers of her books, who have sent Rachel their wedding photos since 2003. And that number keeps on growing. So once again, Rachel, I just want to thank you so much for joining us today. And we're gonna go through helping those of our community that are looking for love and possibly struggling through it. And just giving them some actionable tools and strategies for, you know, for, for bringing in that partner that they're wanting to meet.
Rachel Greenwald | I'm so excited to talk about this topic because it is a journey to try to find love. And what I have found in so many of my clients is that they say one thing, but their actions reveal another thing. And so the strategies that I try to put in place to help them are to basically align their thoughts with their actions. And, you know, happy to talk through any of the questions and try to demonstrate what I mean by that.
Robin | Oh, I love that.
The one thing that I know we talk about, we've talked about so many times, and that you're actually teaching your clients is like, the theory is that too many people are looking for perfection. And there's just like no such thing as perfection. Nobody's perfect. I'm the least like perfect. But it's like you're looking for that perfection in another human being. When you're not that yourself, right? You've got this, like, walk us through Rachel, an example of you know, you see this over and over and over again. People you meet for the first time and you're in there like they're to help they want to hire you because you know how to do this. And what are they coming to you in the first thing your what is your first like, let's say two questions, you're going to ask somebody to get a good read on where they're at with what they're looking for.
Rachel | Well, the first, the first nuance to mention here is that what I find is when I say to somebody, you know, nobody's going to be perfect. They immediately nod in understanding like, of course, they say, No one's going to be perfect. I know that. But then when you start to ask questions a little bit deeper, or you start to watch their behavior swiping on dating apps, it is clear that they actually are looking for perfection, and in fact, they're screening for perfection before they even get to meet someone. So there's two problems with that. One is that they're saying one thing, which is that they're looking for, that they're open to someone who's not perfect. But their actions are different. Because when they swipe, and you ask, you know, why did you swipe left on that profile? And someone might say, well, you know, I looked at his job title, and he's a lawyer, and I don't like lawyers. And so they're stereotyping somebody.
And, you know, I tried to pause and say, Okay, maybe you don't like the stereotype of lawyers. But there are so many wonderful lawyers out there, let's give this person the chance to see if they are the stereotype or not the stereotype. Because people confuse someone's online profile with who they are in real life. And it's normal, right? Like, you can't really gauge very much from the way someone presents, their, their personality and their you know anything about themselves, whether it's physically like in their photos, or whether they wrote something that rubs you the wrong way, you actually have no idea why that person uploaded that photo, or wrote the thing that annoyed you, it may or may not be indicative of who they are in real life. So you have to discern between the profile and the person. So this idea of perfection is really not even valid until you meet them in person. So backing up from the point where you meet them in person, you have to be really open-minded about the profile, and know that that is not always representative of who they are. So as an example, and I gave the lawyer as an example, but there's also a lot of misleading photos that people post and a lot of clients will have an idea of what physical type they're attracted to. And, of course, chemistry is very important, you have to be physically attracted to the person you're going to be with. But photos are often so misleading, both for the better and for the worse. And so if someone is looking for perfection in a photo, they may determine that somebody doesn't look right, maybe they don't like somebody's teeth, or they don't like somebody's hair, or whatever it is, and they rule them out. So I've had so many cases where somebody has ruled out a photo of somebody, but then in real life, been very attracted to them and felt like their photo didn't represent them at all. So as a matchmaker, the first thing I have to help people understand is that screening for perfection or screening for what you think attracts you to somebody in an online profile is different from who the person is offline.
Robin | Yes, I know this, from my experience working as a matchmaker and dating coach, you know, the majority of my business, and in the end when I was doing that, professionally, was helping people with their online profiles. Because what you're what you see, is like, there's so many people that actually don't put a lot of work into their online profiles. It's like they're putting up some random words. You know, like maybe one paragraph about what they're who they are, what they're looking for, and their pictures really aren't great. So you almost have to know that about the online profile industry. But that's but that's another thing that I would that you are, you're cautioning clients with right, Rachel? Is just having like this understanding that you're saying this exactly what you just said was like, you have to give people a break, because it's like, a lot of people aren't doing online dating in the most effective way the majority of people aren't, wouldn't you say?
Rachel | Right. I mean, online dating is a skill. It's like learning a foreign language, it's something that is very specific to learn how to do it, right. And the language of what works online is foreign.
So the example you gave was somebody not putting a lot of time or effort into their online profile. So one might conclude, probably, erroneously, that that person is lazy or not really committed to finding a relationship. But in fact, maybe, you know, they just are really busy at work are busy being a single parent, and they have friends who told them that online dating doesn't work very well for them. And so they decided to upload something but not put a lot of effort into it because they didn't think it would work. You know, they're very different psychological reasons why somebody's profile might not be very appealing or very in-depth. And there are many, many reasons why somebody's photos might look off for some reason. So here's one example of a client who uploaded photos to his online dating profile, where he was barely visible. He, in one picture, had dark glasses and a hat covering most of his face. And in another picture, he was wearing a down parka and a hood, where again, you could barely see him because he was largely concealed. And so I had a client, look at that photo and say, Oh, wow, he looks creepy. He's not showing his face. You know, I would never trust somebody like that. He's obviously trying to hide something. But what was really going on in his mind was that he's a very high-profile CEO of a major company. And he wanted to be online because he wanted to find love. But he also didn't want his employees to recognize him. So he made this decision to upload, you know, basically disguised photos. But it was, you know, the photos were interpreted the wrong way. So you never really know the psychology of why somebody is presenting themselves in a certain way. And there may actually be a good reason for it, or at least an understandable reason. But this really goes to the idea of perfection in the many forms that it comes in searching for love. So we've been talking about the online world, how people present themselves, and the notion of somebody thinking that they're open to someone who's not perfect, but behaving in a way where they're only screening for perfection. But there's an exercise that I do with clients that actually turns out to be one of the most pivotal experiences in helping them identify what's really important to them in narrowing the choice for a mate. And it's an exercise I call pick your poison.
So this is kind of a daunting title, you know, to put the word poison in a topic about finding love. But it's sort of a tongue-in-cheek label that I gave this exercise because of so many people
looking for perfection and ending up not finding love and happiness. And this is a list that I have of nine different poisons. And each of the nine things on the list is actually poisons for women.
I do this exercise mostly with women, but it can certainly be adjusted and maybe some of the poisons can be substituted for men. So it really can be for any gender. But the nine poisons are ways in which someone is not going to be perfect. And it's a forced choice exercise where you are being asked to say, Here are nine undesirable things. pick just one thing that is the most tolerable among all these undesirable things. And the psychology behind it is that I really trying to force people to target one area where they're going to be more open-minded. I'm not saying to be open-minded for all nine, but even just to pick one. So do you want me to describe it?
Robin | Yes please.
Rachel | So the nine poisons. Okay. So this, I guess I'll tell you the nine poisons really quickly. And then I can go back and describe each one with a couple more sentences of detail.
Robin | Yes. And I also just wanted to interject a little bit here. Rachel, you also say that your poisons, this is for over 40.
Rachel | Right. This is a list of nine poisons for women over 40. And there's a reason for that because for people who are under 40, say they're in their 20s or 30s. They are still in the process of becoming who they're going to be. And their poisons may not yet be identified. Some poisons more obviously can be identified, but some can't. So for example, if you know, a woman is on a dating app, and she's really focused on the career of the man that she's interested in meeting, she might look at the guy's job and see that either he's you know, working for a nonprofit or he's unemployed currently, or he's working for a startup and, you know, kind of struggling to figure out what the company is going to become, you know, whatever information may be revealed both through the job title listed and in the description under the, you know, more information about the person down below the photos. But if the person is in their 20s, or 30s, they still are evolving, right? So a guy who in you know, his mid 20s, or mid 30s, has a low paying job, there's always the potential to grow into something bigger. So you know, a person who's struggling in a small startup company, considering themselves an entrepreneur, but basically not even earning a salary because he's got a lot of stock options could suddenly sell his company for millions later. But by the time someone is over 40, and they're in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and beyond, they're probably their situation may not change much, you know, they're probably evolved to where they're going to be. Now, of course, there are exceptions and people's financial situation, and their employment situation can change at any age. But the dating game is really about playing the odds. And so, I find career to be one of those areas where women are so specific about looking for someone who has an impressive career or career title. And that, you know, is more, I guess, the correlation between what they see and what the person is likely to become is more consistent later in life than it is earlier in life. So the list is really aimed for women over 40.
Robin | Okay, great. Okay, so there are nine poisons, right?
Rachel | Right. Okay. So you know, they're called poisons. So you're not going to like any of these. That's kind of the point of it. But I asked all my female clients to choose one if they're over 40. Okay, so the first poison is short, the second is poor, the third is physically unattractive, the fourth is much older, much, much older, the fifth is sick, and the sixth is has a serious personality defect. All these are pretty bad, right? The seventh is an extremely undesirable situation that he has. The eighth is someone who's long distance and the ninth is basically staying single. So let me go back and explain each of these because some of them sound worse than others. And I think when it's a forced choice question like this, where you have to pick one, you kind of quickly gravitate towards one of usually three of the poisons, in my experience. So the first one is short. The first poison is short. So most women are looking for tall guys, you know, everyone wants a tall guy. And the reality is, is that, at least in the US, I don't know about Canada, but at least in the US, only 10% of adult men over the age of 18 are six feet or taller.
Robin | Yes. Oh my gosh. Like this was this was an amazing eye opener for me, Rachel, when when you said that stat when we were in Denver? I was like, Are you kidding me right now?
Rachel | Yeah, most people don't know that.
Robin | No, and most women that hired me to help them. They all of them were like, I want six, I want to tall guy six feet, or you're taking 90% of the population out. [laughs]
Rachel | Exactly, exactly. So when I say that the first poison is to be open to someone short, I mean, quite short. So I don't mean just, you know, move the dial from six feet to 5' 10. You know, I mean, move the dial way down like to 5'6. So, you know, this is very short. And I, you know, I myself am 5'5.
Robin | Yeah, I'm 5'1 so, 5'6 is pretty tall.
Rachel | Right. I mean, as long as somebody is at least equal to your height, I think it's okay. But anyway, so that's the first poison and of course, most women out there saying, Oh, definitely not I would not pick that poison. I would not pick short. Well, let me tell you, the poisons are only going to get worse from here. So grab on to grab onto short, sooner than later. Okay, so and by the way a lot of short guys are these hidden gems, because so many women are overlooking them, and have overlooked them their whole lives. And so they have typically more developed emotional intelligence. And they're often funnier or kinder, because they've been overlooked. So they've developed these really beautiful inner qualities. Now, again, these are generalities, of course, there are exceptions where short men are mean and awful. But for the most part, I find the diamonds to be in the short guys. Again, under you know, this is around the age of 40. And up.
But, okay, poison number two, poor, so this is somebody with very little money like he works for a nonprofit, or he's in the military, or he's declared bankruptcy, he doesn't have a job, or, you know, someone that doesn't even have a regular salary may be poor by your standards. You know, for example, if you're someone who's used to being with somebody who makes over a million dollars, you know, someone who makes $150,000, or $250,000, may be poor by your standards, depending on what your own standards are. But the idea here is to ask yourself, how important money really is to you compared to all these other poisons. And so if you met the most amazing human being who fulfilled you in every single way, but didn't have a lot of money, would this be the most preferable of the nine poisons. Now, I've had very wealthy women, initially, say, I want a guy who at least has as much money as I do, because I like to travel, and I need him to pay his own way. And I, you know, don't want to feel like he's taking advantage of me. And I understand that, and that is very common for successful women, and very wealthy women. But the thing is, when you really think about it, if you want to maintain your lifestyle, and you personally have a lot of money, that can maintain that lifestyle, yourself, and even include a partner, is it really the biggest deal breaker if the person brings all these other emotional qualities that make you so happy to the relationship? And so I've, you know, some of the most beautiful matches I've made have been with women, where they are super wealthy, either from their own career success, or their family money, and they meet somebody who doesn't make a lot of money. Recently, I had the daughter of a billionaire, marry somebody who's a firefighter. And initially, she thought that would never work for many, many reasons. But, you know, she figured out a way to create a joint bank account where she put some of her money in this joint bank account, he had a credit card that was tied to it. And so on the surface, he could put the credit card down at the dinner table, or put the credit card down for the exotic trip they were going to take, and it kind of felt like he was paying. And only the two of them really knew that the money was coming from the bank account where she had put money into it. But it wasn't, you know, a daily thorn in her side where she was physically plunking down the money. And it felt less, you know, like a social stigma for him to do it, even though they both knew where the money was coming from. So there are workarounds. And again, you may hear that poison and say, oh my gosh, I would take short over poor any day. And vice versa. You know, I would take tall, I mean, I have to have tall, but okay, I've got a ton of money, it, it's enough for both of us, I would prefer that. So this is really an individual preference that you have to listen to. And again, there's nine of these, we've only been through two, so I'll speed up and tell you the other seven.
So the third one is physically unattractive by general standards.
You know, somebody who maybe has a terrible nose like it's really crooked or really big or really bulbous, like really a bad nose, or someone who is very overweight, you know, someone who's not just got 10 or 15 pounds to lose but like has got 50 or more pounds to lose. Or somebody that has really bad pockmarked skin from teenage acne or you know, really somebody who's not attractive physically.
Now, you may be somebody who can look beneath that because you are all about substance over style.
I should note here that physically unattractive is not about standard grooming, things that can be changed, like cutting the hair out of, you know, your ears or your nose, or, you know, whitening yellowish teeth or giving a pedicure to a guy with bad toenails, or breath mints to guys with bad breath. Like those are grooming issues. And I'm not even counting those because that is not physically unattractive. That is just a little blip on the radar that you can change when you're in a relationship with him and give him some advice.
So you know, maybe that's something that is tolerable to you. Moving on to number four is much older, somebody who is 10, 15, 20 years older than you. And really, I'm, you know, these days, I'm talking more like 15 to 20 years, not even 10 years, because it's actually pretty standard to, you know, for women to date men who are about 10 years older, when they're over the age of 40 themselves. And so a lot of women will say, I am not going to go old, you know, I would rather have short, I would rather have poor, I would rather have the guy with the bad nose, but I am not going old, you know, I want somebody who's closer to my age or even younger, because I am so active. And that's just a deal breaker. So again, this is just going through the list of what is least awful to you. But you're going to have to pick one by the end of the list.
The fifth one is somebody with a health issue somebody who's sick. And this may be somebody who is in remission from cancer or has active cancer, someone who has, you know, multiple sclerosis, or who's bipolar, maybe someone who's an alcoholic, someone in a wheelchair, I mean, these are very, very serious health issues where someone is sick. Now, a lot of women are caretakers. And you know, I recently met this beautiful woman who was in love with an amputee. He had lost his legs, and he was in a wheelchair. But he was the most incredible person and she loved taking care of him. And so for her, you know, quote-unquote, the poison that she picked on this list was sick. And she felt wanted and needed as a caretaker. And she actually had a health issue herself. And she grew up in a family where someone in her family had a very serious health issue. So she was used to being around that, and just had a really sunny outlook on it, it didn't bother her.
Number six is somebody with a serious personality defect, okay. Now,
I know I don't know who would pick this one. But there are people who would pick this one. And in this category, I'm talking about things like someone who's a narcissist, someone who has a terrible temper, somebody who's unfaithful, they have a history of being a cheater, someone who is a liar, or who's really cheap, or, you know, whatever is a really serious defect that you would consider, like just a horrible personality problem, based on your own psychology. Now, I know people who choose this because for example, women who want to be around a tall, handsome, youthful, wealthy man might overlook the fact that he's a narcissist, or might overlook the fact that he regularly cheats on her, because these other things are more important to her. Now, to me, that's crazy, because I can't imagine that it makes her happy. But there are people who will pick this poison. I've seen it happen again and again.
Number seven is some sort of a catch all category for having an extremely undesirable situation or problem. As defined by you, you know, it's a serious problem for you. So for example, maybe you want kids and he doesn't. That's serious, right? Maybe he has a special needs child that's going to impact your life together. Like he can't travel because he has to be home and taking care of a special needs child.
Maybe it's something completely different. Like he has a criminal record or he didn't graduate from high school and you have a PhD, or maybe he has a dog that he loves and you're severely allergic to dogs and he's never going to give up his dog. You know something that is normally, total deal-breaker issues for you. But, you know, are you willing to live with something and compromise, you know, something in your lifestyle to accommodate that.
Robin | The first one you mentioned about this one is you want kids and he doesn't, or vice versa.
That is a really, to actually accept that.
Rachel | There, there are people who will say,
this guy I'm in love with is tall and handsome and wealthy and kind. And he's everything I always wanted. But I want kids and he doesn't. And at some point, there are some women who will say, I will make that concession, because I'm so in love with him, and he's so amazing. And yeah, I'm gonna give up something I really want. And it's a big one. But he's worth it. So there are people who are like that.
Robin | You know, again, this is very individual, you have to really go deep and ask yourself which of these poisons you are most able to accept. None of them, you're gonna want to accept, but you must accept one. Okay, so we're almost done with the list. Number eight is long distance. Now, this is a popular one, where a lot of women will choose long distance, basically, someone who's very geographically undesirable, there may be 1000, or 3000 miles between you. And especially if one or both of you has young children, and they go to school in different states, and you're tied to custody regulations in different states. So you don't get to see each other very often. It's obviously inconvenient to have a long-distance relationship and to not live in the same city. And that's, that's a poison. You know, that's really, really hard. It causes a lot of problems in numerous ways. It's not ideal. But you may say, okay, given the rest of this list, I think I'll pick long distance because at least I'd rather have my dream boat who lives in another city, then accept any of these other poisons. But you know, it is it takes a toll. And it's very hard.
Yeah. And, you know, I just on a personal note, I, I met Todd online, and because of your coaching, and I have to, you know, walk the talk and talk the talk, you do encourage if somebody's going to pick this poison if you're online dating, open it up, right? If you're willing, if you're able, and I was able, you know, when I didn't have my kids every second week, I was able and willing to travel to Vancouver where I did meet my husband. So that and it was a lot of work. It was very hard to not live in the same city as somebody, but I took your advice. And I and my profile was 300 kilometers from my house, I was open to traveling that distance, right? I'm definitely not getting on a plane to go to Toronto, which is like a five-hour flight. But I'm willing to get on a ferry or a 25-minute flight.
Rachel | Well, I am so glad that you found him closer than Toronto. But if you had asked me specifically, should I open up my parameters to Toronto? I would have said yes, you have to open up your parameters. But that in and of itself is a lesson, which is that just because you open up your parameters, doesn't mean you're going to end up with someone in Toronto, you know, you could be looking as far as Toronto open as far as Toronto, but in the end, he could be in Vancouver, he could be, you know, living in the house next door, like you never know, where love is going to come. But I want people to be as open as possible to cast as wide a net as possible. And in the end, you may never need that wide net. But it's good to have more choices to find the best match.
Robin | Yes, I love this, I love it.
Rachel | And you know, long distance ends up resolving itself usually. So just because somebody starts off in two different cities doesn't mean they're going to end up in two cities. So there are you know, that's a popular one that people often choose. But then again, remember, you have to walk the talk because you could say theoretically, I'm open to long distance. But when I see you swiping on the dating app, and you're swiping left on anybody who's more than, you know, a 30-minute drive from your house, you are not being open to long distance, you know, you have to be consistent to pick your poison. And then, you know, integrate that into your search and just force yourself to be consistent.
Robin | Yes.
Rachel | So the last, the last poison is just simply to stay single.
Robin | If you don't pick one, you're going to be single. [laughs]
Rachel | Exactly. It's the default. So if you don't pick one of the first eight, you are going to be single
So just to recap, you've got short, poor, physically unattractive, much older, sick, serious personality defect, extremely undesirable situation, long distance, or stay single. Now, for me, the choice is obvious, I would pick number one short all day long. I think that all those other poisons, to me are just deal breakers. And if I had to pick one, I would pick short. I think that it's a very reasonable quote, poison to pick, especially because it doesn't correlate with long term happiness, you know, it correlates to the early stage of dating, where it might feel a little uncomfortable not to date those tall guys you're used to. But eventually, if you ask long married, you know, happily married couples over, you know, 1025 50 years, and you say, name, the top 10 things that account for your happy marriage, not one person will say height.
And so I'm trying to help people to look for love, in the ways that correlate with long-term happiness, instead of being stuck in these superficial parameters. So I don't know like in your story, Robin, I guess you picked long distance? Like Were there any other poisons on the list that resonated or was that...
Robin | Oh, I would have been, I'm open to, I was open to a short man. [laughs]
I'm only 5'1, but I do find, like, you know, and my brother might be really mad at me. But he's not a tall guy. My dad was not a tall guy. The only height that was in our family was my twin brother. And he ended up being six feet. But he's the anomaly in our family.
I would say that, like, a lot of our family are not tall men. But they're amazing people, I would totally pick short too, you know, I've got a couple. Yeah, I would pick short or long distance.
Rachel | And if you can pick two, by the way, you are golden. I mean, I'm only asking people to pick one. But if you can pick two, if you can be open to meeting somebody who is both short and long distance, you've just doubled your, your pool, I mean, three would be even more amazing. So again, it's just about casting the net. And you never know, you could end up with somebody tall, who lives right next door to you. But it's just giving you more choices. And very importantly, it's helping you discern from your absolute deal breakers versus your preferences, and encouraging you to truly get to know someone to determine if they make you happy, even if they're not perfect. And to go back to the early part of our conversation about screening on dating apps. Remember that the profile of how someone presents themselves in their dating app is not who they are in real life. So you've almost got two layers, that you have to kind of remember your poison. There's the first layer, which is the profile, and that may or may not be reflective of the actual human being offline. And then you have to reapply the filter your poison in real life, too. So it's a multi-step process. But what I have found is that this works, that people who previously said, I have to have tall, rich, gorgeous, you know, someone my age, someone with no health problems, someone who is a saint, someone who has no undesirable situations and someone who lives right next, you know, in my town, you know, these people are not finding love, especially.
Robin | No cause that person doesn't exist.
Rachel | It doesn't, no. Yeah. And you know, you're not perfect either.
Robin | Oh absolutely not.
Rachel | You know, you the listener, and as well as me and you, Robin, I mean, none of us are perfect, but our search behavior usually doesn't reflect that knowledge. And so this pick your poison exercise, usually is a lightbulb moment for people like oh, wow, okay. I do realize that even though I thought I wasn't looking for perfection, I was actually swiping left on everyone who wasn't perfect. And now I've just loosened the reins a bit to be open to more people. And it really helps you hone in on what's most important to you.
Robin | Yes, I love it. I love it. The other thing that you teach, which I think is such a valuable, valuable lesson is changing your list from your, like you said your preferences and a lot of the list is like physical attributes, right? You know, there are so many golden lessons in this. Number one that I've learned from you is like, you, you say this Rachel, you do not know, the physical package that your partner is going to come in. You can't even imagine it, because, but what you want to focus on is the fact that you want to meet someone, that you find attractive, right? In all these different ways. And that person coming in, like, endless amount of physical human beings, right? I mean, I can, right, I can look at a man and be like, Oh, he's so good-looking. And let's say he's this like Spanish dude, with a great accent, and he's got dark hair and dark eyes and right. And then I can look at my husband, who I find extremely attractive, he looks completely different than other that other guy that I can, you know what I'm saying right now.
Rachel | Right. Exactly, because people become attractive to you, through your ears, not through your eyes, and the connection that somebody makes with you, and how they relate to you, and how they understand you, and how they may heal a childhood wound or insecurity, you know, these are the kinds of things that make someone attractive, you know, there's lots of expressions around this, like, the brain is the biggest sex organ in your body. And, you know, you fall in lust through your ears, not your eyes, you know, there are all these expressions for a reason, it's because it's true. And I'm sure everybody listening to this has been in a situation where they initially met someone they didn't find physically attractive. But then as they got to know them, and they saw how funny they were, or how
they, you know, were consistent in their behavior, or whatever needs you have, that often stem from childhood that somebody meets those needs. And all of a sudden, you see them through a completely different lens. And, you know, particularly hair on guys, you know, I have a lot of women who will say, I am not attracted to bald guys. And then they'll meet a bald guy, and they'll, you know, have some interaction with him where he is either funny, or he's really sensitive about something or he helps you in a tough situation, or you see, he's really good with kids or whatever it is that kind of switches something in you that says, Oh, actually,
Robin | I do like bald guys! [laughs]
Rachel | Yeah. I don't normally like bald guys, but I like this bald guy, you know. So this is all part of finding love. And I think that the people out there, both men and women who stay single, have chosen poison number nine, they have chosen subconsciously, to stay single, because they have not been open to the fact that their future mate and love of their life may come in a completely different package may have an undesirable element to them. That is an affront to their preferences, but not a total deal breaker. And until you realize that you are going to end up with somebody who is not perfect and start behaving accordingly in your search. You are going to by default, be in the number nine poison category, staying single.
Robin | Yes. So we're gonna get into a few community questions before the time runs out, Rachel. But one thing I did want to say as well, one of my greatest lessons that you taught me around this is your list is you know, your new list is so much more about how you want to feel when you're in that relationship. Like that, that really hones in on what's the most important thing when it comes to your partner. I want to like for instance, my list and it was it was in my phone written in my notes section, my dream partner, and I want to feel so accepted and loved by this person. I want to have joy and laughter with this person. He makes me laugh. Right? I want somebody that looks at life from a glass half-full perspective. I don't want a cynicist. I want somebody that's going to have a positive attitude about life.
I want somebody who I'm sexually attracted to like intensely and he is with me. Right?
Rachel | As it should be. As it should be.
Robin | Like these. This is like keeping it's it is kind of specific, but it's like but the package is not. Like, right, I could, I could have all those things with a multitude of people.
Rachel | Yes. And, and so you're referring to a construct that I created about, I don't know, almost 20 years ago. And it's this. It's this construct where I talk about focusing on what you need, and not what you want. And essentially, it's focused on how you feel when you're around someone, either. They are a penthouse person to you, because they elevate your mood, or they are a basement person to you because they bring your mood down. And so your list all reflected emotions and feelings about being with someone. And that's how you ended up finding love because you found a penthouse person that elevated your mood. And that was more important than the checklist of all these other superficial qualities, like height, or religion, or appearance, or, you know, career, any of these other things. And so there's always like this telltale sign when I talk to clients that I know, they're potentially in the wrong relationship. And I, you know, we'll have a conversation and somebody will say, Oh, I just had the best date last night. I think this guy could really be the one and I'll say, Oh, tell me about it. And I deliberately use the word it and not him. Because it's kind of a trick question. And so the trick is, if I say, Tell me about it, meaning the date, and she says, Oh, he's incredible. He's tall, he's got dark eyes, he's got this wavy, thick hair. He's a successful attorney, you know, and she goes on like that, and never once says, He made me laugh, or he was so understanding about what I'm going through with taking care of my elderly mom right now. Or, you know, he really understood that I was uncomfortable walking home at night, and he, you know, offered to walk me home or, you know, whatever it was like, that he impacted her mood and how she felt. And that's when I hear someone describing the objective criteria instead of the subjective, then I know that they're not looking in the right place. You know, that's the inconsistency where someone is saying they're open to someone not perfect. But then describing the perfect date with the checklist items and not the feelings.
Robin | Yes. Okay. Rachel, do we have maybe five more minutes to go through a few community questions?
Rachel | Yeah, absolutely.
Robin | Okay.
One of the questions is How do you spot emotionally unavailable, anxious, and or avoidant men early on? Or women? How do you spot that? And what would be the signs? Oh, this is not somebody that's going to be good for me?
Rachel | Well, I'll first answer that by saying, where you don't spot it, where you can't find it. And that's in an online dating profile. Because as we mentioned earlier, online dating profiles are not reflective of who somebody really is in real life, they may be better, they may be worse, but they are never the same. And so to try to screen out those issues, through a profile, which is brief and superficial, is not the place to do it. Unfortunately, you have to invest a little bit of time. And you know, I always recommend starting with a phone call or a video date before meeting in person. And then probably you need several dates, you know, somewhere between three to five dates with somebody to start to spot those red flags, somebody who might be possessive, and always want to know where you are. And if he asks you out for Wednesday night, and you say you're busy. And suddenly he becomes a little too curious, like, Oh, what are you doing? And who are you doing it with? You know, that's somebody who's anxious. Somebody who maybe has personality issues that are not going to be okay with you. You know, there, there are all sorts of red flags. But I think the thing most people don't realize is that most individuals tell you who they really are early on in the dating process, but you're not listening. You're distracted by something else. Maybe you're distracted by good looks or a fancy job or just the desire to be open minded because you really want a relationship and this person has some good qualities. And you hear something that he tells you, that really sounds like a red flag to you. But you override it and you push forward. And your red flag will be different than my red flag because of all sorts of different emotional and psychological issues from childhood and past relationships. So I don't really have a list for you, but you will know it. But you're not listening. So I would just encourage everyone to tune into their gut early on, and not start making excuses for him or his actions. Because I don't want you to waste time. So listen early on. And I think you're going to be able to spot those sooner than later.
Robin | I love that. That's excellent advice. Kay, last question, before we talk about the work that you're doing at Canyon Ranch and everything else that's going on with you. I'm a woman just over 40 and currently dating, I recently met someone at a friend's gathering and I was quite attracted to and found, found interesting, that came across, he was single, sorry, I took a chance and put myself out there by sending him a message on Instagram, just saying it was really nice to meet him. And I didn't realize how many friends we had in common. Over the course of a few weeks, we've just sent a few nice messages back and forth. However, it doesn't seem to be leading anywhere. His last message did not have a question in it. Does this mean he's just not that into me? Should I message him again, or just leave it alone?
Rachel | Definitely leave it alone, stop wasting your time. He's just not into you. And that's okay. Because it frees you up to spend your time and emotional energy on somebody who is. So you have no idea why he could be dating somebody else. You could not be his physical type, or there's something that is preventing him from being interested in you that you will never know. But a man who is interested in a woman pursues her, full stop. There are no excuses. Don't make excuses like he's busy. Or maybe he didn't get my message. Or maybe his phone broke or, you know, should I just try again? Maybe he's shy? No, stop wasting your time. He's just not that into you.
You know, the way the question was phrased. You know it, you know, he's just not that into you. You don't need my permission, or anyone's permission to try again, stop asking because you'll eventually find a friend who wants to provide an excuse to make you feel good and encourage you to try again. And they're just wasting your time. You know, you only have so much time in your life. And by the time you are spending hours at work and family and friends and health and fitness and all these other things that you're doing. You have to invest your search time wisely, and really manage the situations where you are investing your energy. So it's too bad. He wasn't interested. Let's move on.
Robin | Yes. Perfect. I love it. So, tell me what you're doing right now with your teaching? Tell me about your Canyon Ranch courses because I know you were doing divorce Bootcamp for a while in Tucson. Yeah. And now and now what are you doing? It's in November, right?
Rachel | So a lot of people may know Canyon Ranch Tucson, it's a Resort Spa in Arizona. And for a number of years, I have been teaching different dating boot camps there. And the new boot camp that I'm teaching is called Jumpstart New Love and Relationships. And we actually had it scheduled for November, but just rescheduled it. And we don't have a specific date yet, but it's going to be in either January or February of 2023. So check the Canyon Ranch website or my website, rachelgreenwald.com under the Events tab, and as soon as we have a new date, we will post it but essentially I go for four days and I teach several different workshops and host fireside chats and help people in person to navigate different dating issues. And I teach alongside lots of other Canyon Ranch experts who are life coaches and physical therapists and also nutritionists, there are so many different elements that go into making you your best self to find love. So it's a holistic approach to finding someone and really, you know, the Jumpstart part of the title is really meant to say
you know, let's just make this happen. Let's you know, finally stop saying I want it to happen and actually do something about it. So it's a jumpstart to go from lackluster emotions and feelings about dating, and really feel empowered, that you have all the tools to go out and help you. So I go into great detail about how to create the best online dating experience. So you find love. And one of my colleagues there, this amazing therapist and life coach named Amy Hawthorne, she talks about red flags and how to spot them. And there are numerous other sessions that are part of this four-day experience. So I hope to meet some of your community in person in Canyon Ranch as soon as we have the date for this winter.
Robin | That's wonderful. Well, we'll make sure that I'm going to keep in touch of course with you, Rachel, and the minute you've got your dates, just let me know. And we'll make sure we post it and share it out with our community. That is amazing. Well, I, I always treasure the time that we have together. And this has been an action-packed, so much beautiful information and insights. You're just so brilliant and beautiful. And I love you and I thank you so much for everything.
Rachel | Oh my gosh, that means so much coming from you of all people. I adore you. And I really appreciate the time to get to talk to you today.
Robin | Okay, everybody, follow Rachel, rachelgreenwald.com. And we'll make sure we put all the information with Canyon Ranch in our in our show notes. Well, thank you again, Rachel.
Rachel | Bye Robin.
Robin | We'll see you soon. Bye.
Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.
Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey