Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 2 Episode #5 with Allison Raskin | Transcript

22.10.06

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hello, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. Today, I have the utmost pleasure of speaking with Allison Raskin. Allison is an American writer, director, comedian and mental health advocate. She is featured weekly on the popular and very funny podcast Just Between Us with co host Gabby Dunn. We are talking today about Allison's book Overthinking About You: Navigating Romantic Relationships When You Have Anxiety, OCD, and/or Depression. Allison is open about her struggles with mental health. She was four years old when she was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. We talk about anxiety, dating while living with a mental illness, and how to have hard conversations if you are with someone with a mental illness. Allison brings so much levity, and deep wisdom to a topic many of us are not truly educated on. Enjoy. Welcome to the let's talk love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless, of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Welcome, everybody, to today's episode of Let's Talk Love. I am so happy to be joined by our guest, Allison Raskin. Thank you, Allison, for coming on!

Allison Raskin | Thank you so much for having me.

Robin Ducharme

I've been reading your book for a few weeks and listening to you and reading the book. And I just absolutely loved it. So, so much. I've been following you on your podcast, and watching you on Instagram. And it's just such a pleasure to have you.

Allison Raskin | You've already made my day. So thank you so much.

Robin | So let's dive in and start talking about your book. Because it is such an important read. I think everybody that wants to learn more about mental health, as well as if you're with somebody that has a mental illness. I mean, this is a really important book for people not only if you are struggling with a mental illness as well as you're dating somebody, or just if you want to learn more. That's what I really got so many learnings out of this book. It's called Overthinking About You: Navigating Romantic Relationships When You Have Anxiety, OCD, and/or Depression. And so kudos to you, Alison, for writing this book. And first of all, I did want to ask you about you do talk about this in your book, you share your story very openly about how you did develop OCD, you were four years old, right?

Allison | Yeah, so mental health has always been a part of my life. I don't remember a time when I haven't been kind of struggling with my mental health, because I had something called PANDAS, which basically means I got strep throat that sort of activated the OCD in my brain. So it came on really strong and really quickly. And my behavior, you know, kind of changed overnight, which I think was pretty scary for me, but also for my parents. But I was really lucky that they took it seriously. They were like, This is not her, this is not okay. And they got me quickly into treatment and on medication. And so, you know, for me, my life has sort of just been navigating, how do I become the person that I want to be even though I also have this disorder, like, what does that look like? And I think I really struggled for a long time to figure out how to show up in romantic relationships and how to not have romantic relationships, heartbreak, rejection, all of those things be so damaging to my mental health. Because, you know, it's one thing just on a day-to-day basis to take care of ourselves. But then when we're in these, like really highly emotional, highly vulnerable interactions, it can feel like you know, do or die. And so I wanted to kind of provide a roadmap for how to make all of this just a little easier to navigate and not feel as scary to pursue partnership because even if you've struggled with your mental health, that doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue a partnership. That doesn't mean you don't deserve partnership. That doesn't mean you're not capable of having a really healthy and fulfilling partnership. And I tried to share both my journey and also some, you know, expert advice to help other people get there as well.

Robin | Yes. And so in the book, you are sharing your personal story, you have interviewed so many different experts, like clinical psychologists, sex therapists, and dating coaches, just to name a few, right? And it also couples like real-life couples that were going through the same thing that you've been going through your life and sharing their relationship stories. So I just loved the mix. And the stories and also the expert advice. So I do feel like, like you said, $16 for the book, but you're getting like hundreds and hundreds of dollars of therapy as you're reading this book. It's really. It's solid. It's really, really, I so related.

Allison | Oh, thank you. Yeah, a big problem is that you know, therapy is not accessible to a lot of people. And so I think there's this expectation that we should inherently know how to be healthy in relationships, we should inherently know how to be good partners to each other. But why, like the idea that like, two people from completely different backgrounds, dealing with completely different baggage and potential trauma, also having different communication styles, and then having mental health issues, like, that's going to take a lot of work, that's going to take a lot of like negotiation, and you need some tools for how to do that, instead of just feeling like, oh, well, I'm garbage, because I couldn't figure this out on my own right away.

Robin | Yes, I absolutely agree. And something that I learned, which I didn't know the statistic that one in five people will be diagnosed in their lifetime with a mental illness. That is a large number. But the other realization I had while I was reading this, I'm like, you know, when I was reading, you know, things about OCD tendencies, and like, Oh, I totally have so many of those. And like, talking about anxiety, like, I think I live with, like low-grade, for for a long time, I've lived with low-grade anxiety. And this is not uncommon. I know, it's not uncommon. Right. So it's not I think there's just so much stigma around mental illness. But I think, you know, would you say that? I'm correct to say that, like, I think so many of us have tendencies, it's not like, just like, you've got this and, you know, do you know what I'm saying?

Allison | Definitely, you know, I think that there's a lot of discussion in the mental health community about the value of diagnoses, you know, there are going to be people that that meet the clinical criteria for diagnoses as expressed in the DSM, which is like, basically the Bible for, you know, psychologists and psychiatrists and therapists, but there are a lot of people who are living in, you know, subclinical levels where like, they might not necessarily, you know, qualify for having an anxiety disorder. But anxiety is still an ever-present part of their life, they're still struggling, maybe with some OCD tendencies, even if they don't have full-blown OCD. And so really, just like, an approach that I think is helpful a lot is to focus not on like, do I have this disorder or not, but what symptoms am I dealing with in my life and how can I learn to alleviate them?

Robin | Yes. So in the book, there's you, there's this discussion around the three types of anxiety. So I would like if you could go through those. Because this is like because I really love this how, like, one of the levels of anxiety is like helpful anxiety, your wisdom, right? Which is different than walking around going, like worrying about something incessantly where you're just like no control over it.

Allison | Yeah, so anxiety exists for a reason, you know, if you talk to any, you know, therapists, they're going to tell you that your anxiety is there to protect you. Like we needed to have anxiety so that like when we were like the classic example, like, if there was a tiger near you, you would leave it it's meant to signal you when there is danger. But a lot of times, the wiring gets faulty and it's signaling you when there isn't danger, but your body and mind are responding or responding as though there is. And so, when I was talking to a psychologist, Robin Gibbs, she sort of was breaking down that you know, sometimes this anxiety that we feel in our relationships is actually there too, is valid, right, it is, it is like a signal that something is off, it is a signal that like maybe you are not safe in this partnership. You know, so if like, this person is like, Okay, I'll call you tomorrow, and you don't hear from them for a week and you feel a little anxious. That's not really irrational, right?

Robin | No, definitely.

Allison | That's grounded in reality, and that's a signal that maybe this person isn't the safest choice for you. But then there's also you know, two other major kinds that show up. And one is sort of just like generalized anxiety. So if you are someone who just tends to be an anxious person in all areas of your life, it is likely that you will also have anxiety in your relationships, right? Like, if you're freaking out that the bus isn't going to come, you might also be freaking out that your partner is not going to show. Yes, they're like, it's just sort of like your MO and how you move through the world. And so it's going to be a part of that aspect of your life as well. And then there are other people who really don't live with generalized anxiety. And for them, their anxiety really only comes out when it's when there's intimacy. So like, in relation to another person, because maybe they have like some attachment wounds, or maybe they have some things that they haven't worked through. And so there is a fear around getting close to another person. And those are all different types of anxiety. And it is a lot of work to sort of parse through. Okay, which one am I feeling? And do I need to actually listen to it?

Robin | Yeah. And something you say is, that it is your job to soothe your anxiety. Your partner is simply a secondary helper. I liked that. I liked that a lot, right? Because we know that we have to do our own work. And if we're bringing our stuff into the relationship, which is inevitable, it is our job, right? Yeah. Unless there's of course, definitely partners do and it's just like, No, I mean, you gotta sort this out, buddy.

Allison | And I think it's also, you know, this expectation that if your partner is right for you, then they will know how to help you. But again, That's so unfair, you need to be able to tell your partner how to help you. And then what's telling is not, did they know instinctively what to do in the first place? But were they able to do it once you told them?

Robin | Yes, I like that. I love that. So you say one of the hardest parts of living with anxiety, OCD, and or depression is figuring out who you really are underneath the bullshit, the illness because if you've got all of this going on in your head, and all your thoughts, it's like, you have to parse through, okay, where, where? What is true, and what is the reality here? Right? So what is your best advice for doing a lot of inner work before entering a relationship, versus being in a relationship while figuring yourself out?

Allison | You know, I think both are valid, you know, I think that there is sort of this maybe mindset that you have to be like, completely healed to have a, you know, healthy and fulfilling relationship. And I don't believe that I think that a lot of times, being in a secure relationship can actually kind of anchor you in a way that allows you to then do the work on yourself and, and get to the place that you want to be because you have this person sort of like providing a feeling of safety for you to do that, and exploration. But I also think that there's different levels to that, right, like, you don't want to enter into a relationship when you're in crisis. And so, I think it's really getting to a place where you, where if this relationship does not work out, you know, that you will be, quote, unquote, okay, you know, that it will not make you feel like you don't want to be alive anymore, you, you won't completely lose your sense of self, you won't see it as a rejection of your entire value as a human being. Like, if you're starting to think about entering into a relationship and you're like, Well, if this doesn't work out, this means blank, and the blank is really bad, then I think there is more work to be done before it is really safer or smart for you to enter into something. But if you've done enough work, where you feel secure enough in yourself that if this thing doesn't work out, that you will be okay that you will survive, you will continue to live the life that you want. But you know, you're still dealing with anxiety, you still have depressive episodes, you still have to tackle your OCD. That's okay. That's the kind of stuff that like it's, you know, an ongoing, kind of forever journey that a lot of times we're able to take while in partnership.

Robin | Yeah. I love the analogy you gave in the book about your potential... and this is a quote, your potential partner is an outstretched hand that can help bring you to shore, right? But you can only reach out and successfully grab this hand if you're almost, already almost on land. I loved that. Because if you're floundering at sea and you're like, you're searching for that person, like I need you and they're like at the shore. You're like you're definitely way too far away for me to help you.

Allison | Exactly. It's kind of that 90/10. You know like you’ve got to get yourself to that 90%.

Robin | Yes.

Allison | And sometimes, you know, mental health is not linear. So you might meet somebody at a stage where you are that, where you are like doing really well. And then you go through a phase a year into the relationship, six months, five years where you have a backslide. But just kind of remembering that it is still your responsibility, that this isn't, while your partner is there to help you and support you like, you have to be the one that is like, okay, things are not going well. What am I going to do about this? Instead of like looking to your partner to solve the problems.

Robin | Yes. Beautiful. So, in the book you have, there's a lot of tools for if you have a mental illness, when do you disclose if you're dating, or if you're in a new relationship. So when is the right time to disclose to someone that you're dealing with a mental illness,

Allison | I really like to talk about the stage of the relationship instead of the timeline of the relationship because there is such a difference in the ways in which we get to know people, you know, if you're 35, you might be on a first date with someone that lasts five hours, and you guys go into really relevant important parts about your life, and therefore it wouldn't be abnormal to mention that you struggle with anxiety, because you've also learned that they struggled with this and their mother is sick, and you know, like you're learning real things about each other. But if you're just having a casual relationship with somebody, I don't think that you really need to disclose that stuff until you're starting to really get to know them. And the tricky thing with this kind of information is you want to be in touch with why you're disclosing because a lot of times we will compulsively share because we can't sit with the discomfort of them not knowing, right? Because we're like, oh, well, this is just this thing that's hanging over our heads and like if they want you know, I need to find out right now is it if they find out I have OCD that then they are either going to leave or stay. And so I need to know right away what their reaction is. And that's really not a healthy place to share from you want to share from a place of control, where the reason that you are sharing is because you've decided that this person is worth getting to know better, that they're worth you sharing that part of yourself and being in control of the disclosure and figuring out what is relevant to share right now. Because for a lot of us, kind of maybe the more traumatic or shocking parts of our mental health history might not be that relevant to who we are today. You know, like maybe your worst episode was 10 years ago, with a long-term partner, that period of your life might come up and should come up at some point. But it doesn't have to come up on that third date, where you're just first mentioning that you've struggled with your mental health if that makes sense.

Robin | Oh, it makes perfect sense. You have to be in a place where you and we do talk, you talk about this in the book which I loved it's like if you're gonna be in a solid relationship if you want to. It's that feeling of safety, first and foremost, right? I mean, when I'm like, it makes 100% sense to me when I read that, but I'm like, it's so simple, yet profound. If you're not feeling safe, even within that within, let's say you're dating somebody, you've got like five or six dates in and you're like, you're actually not feeling like there's a level of trust or safety. You're not going to share personal stuff about yourself like that. It wouldn't be wise, you're not, you have to protect yourself.

Allison | And looking at the disclosure as not just like a test on whether or not they're going to accept you, but sort of like a test on who this person is, right?

Robin | Yes!

Allison | If they don't take that disclosure well, or you can tell that like, they don't like to talk about hard things, or they're not willing to like give the time and energy and ask like a single follow-up question, then maybe this isn't the person for you. Maybe they don't have the capacity to hold what you're going to need them to hold.

Robin | Yes. Yeah. So we've had a community question. Actually, many community questions around this, from people struggling in relationships when one person is not dealing well with their mental illness. And you asked a great question of your therapist of the therapist Annette, who you worked with, right? Is it the responsibility of the person who is suffering to walk away from the relationship if they can see they're bringing their partner down with them? Can we talk about her answer and your thoughts around that? This is something that I think is quite common. Of course, it is. Right?

Allison | Yeah. And I think, you know, I really loved her answer, which was sort of like that's a unilateral decision. Right? And, you know, as someone who's been in unilaterally left by her ex-fiance and having to live with that and feeling such a loss of control that this person just made this decision without including me in it at all, I really gravitate towards this idea that like, we have to have hard conversations with each other. So instead of saying, I'm not doing well, therefore, I'm leaving you to protect you. It's saying I'm not doing well. And I want to check in and see, is that okay? Like, are you? Is this fair for you to stay in this relationship when it is so clear that I'm not okay, and that I'm having trouble becoming okay again, and kind of giving them a bit of the power to be able to say, and not just the power, but an opening, to be able to say, actually, you know, this has been really draining on me, it's been really hard for me to see you not get help when you clearly need help. And, and maybe I do need to take a step back, or for them to say, the last thing I want is to not be here when you're struggling, please let me be here for you while you're going through this. And that's a personal decision that your partner has to make. But I think, opening the door to have that discussion because I think a lot of people feel like how can I possibly abandon someone during a hard time that makes me a bad person. But ultimately, we're not meant to be our partners long time... There's different dynamics and partnerships, and sometimes you're gonna have to step up and be more of a caretaker for your partner than other times. But you're allowed to say that that dynamic doesn't work for me long term. And again, this it's like more towards mental health than I would say physical health. I think a lot of times a lot of people with physical disabilities, their partner ends up having to do a lot of caretaking duties. But that's sort of, that's sort of the dynamic, and that's something they know and it's fine and is normal. But with mental health caretaking, I think that it's really, you know, in all relationships is really valid to say is this working for, you know, letting somebody feel like they have the space to say that it's not?

Robin | Absolutely. So, Dr. Annette Rotter's and Allison's quote, I combined them because I just love this so much. And this is like when your partner, what happens when your partner won't get help? Okay, you're with your and this, I think it's just I mean, I've got, you know, best friends that had been with the partners that just were not getting the help that they needed, right? And she says, and you, if you're involved with someone who seems to be really troubled, and they're not willing to get help, you can say, I'm getting more concerned, it's hard for me to be with someone who isn't willing to take the steps to take care of themselves. The person who's saying the other has a problem without seeing it acted upon, is going to grow increasingly unhappy, which makes sense, it's not going to be resolved. And that lack of resolution might just wear down your relationship until there's nothing left to fight for. Right? I think this was so well said and so true. Because if you're with somebody that's not willing to get the help, and you're watching this deterioration happen, or just maybe just a standstill, you're like, what else can you do? You just feel helpless.

Allison | Yeah, and I think so much of what makes relationships work is willingness. Right? So it's not like you can say to your partner snap out of your depression, because that's how depression works. But you can say, I think you need to maybe see your doctor, or maybe see your psychiatrist or, you know, last time you went through a depressive episode, you mentioned that doing yoga really helps you feel better. How do you feel about trying yoga again? And seeing them have a willingness to want to get better, to want to put in some work to get better. But if they don't have that, you know, we only have one life to live. And if you're someone who's open and willing, and giving as a partner, your partner has an inability to do that back and a reluctance to do that back. You have to evaluate, you know, what kind of life you want to live.

Robin | Yeah. Awesome. So, actually, we've got another community question. Someone in our community is with a partner who's ready to kill themselves if the other person leaves them. And I know, Annette, the therapist in your book, gave this great advice. You don't want to be with someone who won't help themselves. So you are choosing to leave. And there is a difference between manipulation and self-preservation. Right. That was a good point that you make in the book.

Allison | There's a difference between I think, being like being selfish, and

Robin | Oh yes, I'm sorry.

Allison | Self-preserving. And, you know, unfortunately, the dynamic of somebody threatening to hurt themselves. If you leave isn't healthy for either one of you. You know, there's this sense of like, oh, well, there'll be okay if I just stay, but they're obviously not okay. And so I think, you know, you don't want to necessarily based on, obviously, if you're, if you feel unsafe, or there is any abuse happening, you absolutely just need to get yourself out of that situation if you're able to. But if you if there isn't abuse, and, and there isn't a sense that you're in danger, I think that you can potentially try to help provide them with some support and resources before you leave, you know, maybe they have some friends, some family, you can sort of call them up, say, hey, it's looking like this relationship isn't working out. But you know, so and so it's in a really bad place and it would mean a lot to me if you could kind of check in on them. Or even like, Would you mind coming, I'm moving my stuff out. But would you mind coming and spending the night with them when I do that? And for people who don't really have other people in their life, you know, providing them with resources, you know, some hotlines, even, you know, a therapist, if you think that's something they're able to get access to. But at a certain point, it is not healthy for either one of you to stay in a dynamic just because they're threatening to harm themselves if you don't.

Robin | No, definitely not. So there's, there's a lot of information in your book about medication, right? Is it going, will it help? Or will it hurt? And you did describe just in the beginning, and also in your book openly about how when you were four years old, I mean, you said, I don't know if I would have survived my childhood without liquid Prozac. But, like, unfortunately, there is still a lot of stigma around medication, for those that have a mental illness, they don't want to take it because they're afraid of the side effects. So you did you do go through a lot of that, which I thought I didn't know a lot. Like, I definitely heard about medications that can cause weight gain. So people are afraid that, oh, if I take that medicine, I'm gonna gain weight. Right? So can you talk about a few of the stigmas around taking medication? And I know, I loved, I loved what you talked about how sick, you're taking medicine, you have to change the perspective that this is good for you. Right? And it's not all, it's not always the case that you have to be on medicine. But in the case, when you do, it's like, it's something that's going to help you it's not a... Right, you have to change the perspective to something so positive.

Allison | I think like, a lot of people think, Oh, well, if I go on medication, I have to be on medication my entire life, or I just have to be on whatever medication I try first. But you know, your medication journey is also not linear. Like you're ideally working with a psychiatrist who is able to hear feedback, who is asking you like, are these side effects that you're willing to live with? Or not? Like? Is this prescription working? Should we try something else? Is this dosage working? Should we try something else? Like, it is sort of a dance to find what works best. So I think sometimes people will maybe try something once and it doesn't go well so they're like, you know, forget medication. And then in terms of like, the stigma of it all, you know, like, at a certain point, I, I loved the doctor, I interviewed Dr. Yashari, the psychiatrist, the phrase, she says, like, do you really want to white knuckle your way through life? You know, I think a lot of people can live off medications, still have a job, still have a relationship, still have friends still do stuff. But it's hard. He knows, like, it is draining, and it's exhausting. They often maybe don't find as much joy in those things as they would. And so it's a question of like, what's the point of not helping yourself. And a lot of times, you really just need the medication to get you to a base level so that you can then apply all the tools that you've learned either in therapy or through other resources. Because sometimes we're just below a level where we can enact change, where we can logically know what we need to do and how we're supposed to think and why it's so important to sleep well. And ya-da-da-da, but like, if we can't access those tools like we know those tools exist, but we can't access them and have them work for us. Sometimes the medication can give us that bump that we need to implement those things into our lives. So it's not a quick fix. But it is a way to get you to a baseline where you can start to really help yourself and start for all these other things that you're doing to really have a payoff.

Robin | Yes. So there's, there's a chapter in your book called What's Sex Got To Do With It? I love it. You talk about you're like, oh, this was the chapter I was really like very afraid or what was it? You just said this is like this one gave me anxiety to write because I'm sharing so much about myself and my sexual journey. But Allison I have to see I think this is so real. For many of us, like growing up, right? It's like, we don't know the first thing about sex. And then we're like bumbling through high school, or college whenever you start getting sexually active. And it's like, you know, you say, for a long time, I thought my vagina was broken. Yes. Broken, damaged, ruined beyond repair. Why? Because it didn't work the way I was promised by pop culture. And I'm like, yeah, like this is we all just have this misconception, or we're just looking to movies, just thinking it's gonna come naturally when it's the exact opposite, right? And so you talk about going from a place of catastrophizing, thinking something was really wrong with you. And then once you started having sex, you were using sex as a tool rather than something you were desiring, which I think is so common. Like, so many of us, we've been through that period in our lives. And now as adults and maybe even, you know, later on in dating life, you're still doing the same thing. But I just, can you just talk about that, please? About this. I just, I just thought this was like, I just thought I was just shaking my head going. Yeah, we've all been there. A lot of us have.

Allison | Yeah, it's definitely an area of my life that I had never talked about publicly before, probably the only area of my life that I never talked about publicly before. But, you know, it is so tied into my mental health. And, and, you know, I think it took me a really long time to understand that a lot of why I wasn't having these experiences, the way that I thought that I quote, unquote, should or would, was tied up in my anxiety and my mental health, and that, you know, it was like, unrealistic for me to think that like, as an anxious person, I wouldn't carry that into the bedroom and that it couldn't have, you know, physical effects on my body and my ability to connect and, and enjoy sex physically in the way that I had been sort of promised by media and society. And so for me, you know, it was really about like, first acknowledging that right, like, because I think we can feel like I said, just like, physically broken, like, something is wrong with us that we're missing out on this thing everyone else is doing with no problems at all. And so just sort of like owning up to that. And also, like, just this, this idea that like, of all the things I've had to work on in my life, this area, I work on the least, because I just have had to kind of triage other things. Like I've just, I had to, like, get to a place where like, I didn't want to die before I could be like, how do I have a fulfilling orgasm? Like, it's just like, you know, when you're dealing with stuff, like sometimes sex can really kind of become the lowest priority. And then it's also the hardest thing to talk about out of all these things in a lot of ways. And so really just giving some tools for both, how to not feel shame around it, how to have conversations with partners, how to have conversations with partners, where they don't personalize the fact that maybe your body doesn't respond in the same way as the previous partners have, or how they've been taught people should respond. And making sure that instead of you feeling like, Oh, you've got to fix yourself, just finding somebody who doesn't feel like you need to be fixed.

Robin | Yes. And I think one of the things that I wrote down about this, this chapter was, which is so poignant is like you and your partner is about the individuality of couples, and how every couple is different. And what you deem to be important in a partner, like, for instance, the example, one of the examples was like, if you're dating somebody, like, and he watches seven hours of football every Saturday, Sunday, like it's football Sunday, woohoo. Like, I would not want to be somebody that did that every Sunday. But, hey, I could think of a lot of women or people that are fine with it. Like, go ahead. It doesn't bother me. But it's just so individual. Right. And so one of the quotes I wrote down was you and your partner need to be on the same page about what satisfies both of you without getting hung up on frequency or orgasm. Because one couple can be like, we're fine with once a week, one couple with once a month. I mean, who cares? You don't have to compare yourself to other people, which I think it's all too prevalent.

Allison | Yeah, and, you know, a lot of times couples have kind of different levels of desire, but it's figuring out a way that you both feel fulfilled and also that it doesn't, you know, that one person may be lower frequency isn't seen as a rejection of the other person. And so maybe finding something to fill in the gap like still, you know, cuddling next to each other on the couch the entire night. So you're still touching but maybe you're neither, you know, one of you isn't in the right headspace for you know, full-blown intercourse or, you know, there's so many shades of intimacy and I think we have a culture that is very hyper-focused on just penetration as the be all end all and kind of expanding our idea of you know, what is intimacy, sexual intimacy, sexual fulfillment, sexual connection and kind of breaking down the barriers of it has to look one way.

Robin | Definitely. So there's a lot of tips on how to date productively in your book. And I really appreciated this, this, you said about you said dating multiple people at once, if you've got if you do have anxiety, right? Takes the pressure off and makes the entire experience less high stakes. Because you're not just focused on one person if you have, so I thought that was really good.

Allison | Yeah, Devin Simone suggested that a dating expert and you know, that's kind of a thing that's sort of somewhat foreign to me because I tend to, you know, focus on one person. But the problem with that is, then it's like all or nothing like, oh man, I'll either have a partner or I won't, and it'll be this person or it won't. But for the early stages of dating, if you're an anxious dater it can be really helpful to even if you like someone to still go on a date with someone else, you know, to sort of just like, allow yourself and remind yourself that there are a lot of different possibilities out there. And it and it makes it so this one thing moving forward or not doesn't mean that you will have a romantic life or not.

Robin | Yes. So I, okay, one of my favorite things that I read, and I laughed out loud. And I talked to my best friends about your three-tiered system, your patented three-tiered system for how to decipher if you're settling or if you're with the right person, I thought this was so awesome Allison. Because I was like, we were like, we went through it the three things I'm like, yeah, like if you wouldn't. So because I think it's all too typical. And, you know, I mean, I was a dating coach and matchmaker in my past life before I started Real Love Ready. And you know, of course, you're talking about, you want to have shared values, you know, you want to be physically attracted, like you could be physically attracted to a lot of different people, right, but same, you know, maybe life goals, like these are really broad things, you want to look for in a partner. But I really appreciated your three-tier system, because it's like, way more like, cut and dry. Like, listen! Can you please tell us about your three-tiered system?

Allison | Yeah, I'm working on getting this patented.

Robin | I think you should. It's solid.

Allison | So basically, the first tier is like, deals with sort of physical and sexual attraction, which is so different for everybody. And for some people, you know, they're not attracted to people right away, and you need to get to know them. But like, if you're at a stage of should I continue dating this person? It's basically are they above or below your bar? Like, are you physically attracted to them? Sexually attracted to them? That's not based on any standard other than your own feeling towards this person. And it's just sort of tapping into do I feel this, you know, this pull towards them. And again, this probably is much more for people. You know, there are also people on the asexual scale who this you know, this part wouldn't be helpful for but if you're someone who's allosexual, this could be helpful. And then the second tier is called the mall. And it's if you were at the mall with your partner, and you like, walking around, would you be like jazzed to show them off? Right? And again, this isn't just like about physical looks, this is just like, are you just like, proud to be with this person? So you're at the mall and like, you bump into a co-worker. Are you excited to like, introduce your coworker to your partner like, that will go well, because like, you just like, think they're the best?

Robin | Or would you be like, Oh, God, oh, no, there's my aunt. Run the other way!

Allison | [laughs] And then the third tier is family dinner. And family I use loosely because it can be you know, your biological family, but it can. But it can also be just your found family. And so like whoever you consider to be the most important people in your life, could you see this person fitting in at a family dinner with them? Like, do you see that going well? Do you see that they would be able to basically be a part of your world and your life in a positive way. And so those are sort of like this three things I say to like, you know, kind of run through in your head when you're thinking about maybe making something official with someone or wondering if like, if you're a quote-unquote, settling, so I think kind of running through those different scenarios can be kind of enlightening.

Robin | Yes, I just love that so much. And then you know, you said more importantly, most importantly, ask yourself the key question like can you, do you respect this person? I mean, really, like do you have like, a lot of respect, because if you don't really respect them well then that's pretty important too. But also the dinner in the mall and an attraction so I like all three it's perfect, it's just perfect. So we are almost out of time, but I know that you are in a happy relationship with John. Right? And I love the fact that oh my gosh, I laughed at I loved it so much when he interviewed you for your book. And that was so good. He's got a really good sense of humor, too.

Allison | He does. There's a lot of play in our relationship, which is really important to both of us, I think.

Robin | Yeah, I mean, and now it's like, so can you. I know you've got a public relationship in some ways, but how do you feel different about the relationship you have now with John compared to, you know, you share a lot of stories about dating different men in your book, I love all the stories, but how do you feel, you know, that it's different because of all the self-love that you've given yourself, right, that you can bring that into your, your, this relationship now?

Allison | I mean, I think a lot of the reasons it's really different, it's just because I'm different. Because, you know, my differentiation is stronger, like, I care about this person, but my life and my emotions are not dependent on this person. And then, you know, I also think that I really was able, you know, having met him in my 30s, having met him after a broken engagement, having met him, having dated as much as I did, I sort of had a very clear idea of what was actually important to me, and what I thought should be important to me, but really wasn't. And so for me, that was like finding someone who I genuinely enjoy. Like, I think that the ability to just like, want to hang out with your partner is very important because that's who you spend most of your time with. And so he's someone who always makes me laugh, he makes me feel respected. I feel like he allows me to be all different versions of me, but also sees a lot of like, what I, you know, what I can do. He's like, my, my cheerleader, and I try to be the same for him. And so, you know, a lot of it is, is timing. I think a lot of times meeting someone, once you've figured out a lot of your own stuff makes the relationship a lot easier versus meeting someone when you're younger and you both haven't done that yet.

Robin | Yes, I agree. Yeah.

Allison | I don't know if our relationship would be as good and, you know, fulfilling if we'd met at 24. I don't think it would have I don't even necessarily know we would have worked out. Because I think we both had a lot of things to work through. But luckily, we've both done that work. And then we're able to kind of come together and now this relationship is sort of the easy part.

Robin | Yes, that and you just that's just beautiful. So beautifully said, and I'm so happy for both of you and your dogs.

Allison | Oh, thank you.

Robin | And you're doing such tremendous work in the world. And you're just such a light. So thank you. Thank you for coming on our show. Allison, thank you for writing your book and doing everything you're doing.

Allison | Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed these questions.

Robin | Yeah. Okay, well, we'll see you on IG.

Allison | Perfect.

Robin | OK, bye.

Allison | We'll see you soon, bye!

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey