Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 2 Episode #8 with Amy Chan | Transcript

22.10.27

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today on Let's Talk Love I'm talking to Amy Chan, all about healing from heartbreak. Amy is the founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp, a retreat that takes a scientific and spiritual approach to heal the heart. I just finished reading Amy's best-selling book, Breakup Bootcamp: The Science Of Rewiring Your Heart, which is full of wisdom, tools and guidance for breakup recovery. We talk about the heartbreak healing process, the different stages of separation, how to expand your emotional range, and also how to stop repeating unhealthy relationship dynamics. Amy is insightful, funny and full of actionable ways we can navigate life through and after heartbreak. Enjoy. Welcome to the Let's Talk Love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless, of relationship status, We will talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm so happy to have our guest today. Amy Chan. Hi, Amy.

Amy Chan | Hi! Hows it going? Thanks for having me.

Robin Ducharme | Thank you so much for joining us. I'm so excited to dive in and talk to you about your book and talk to you about your boot camp, renew boot camp. There's just so much work, beautiful work you're doing to help people with their heartbreak. Breakups and heartbreak, I mean, we've all experienced this. But before we do that, I always ask my guests this question, what in your life right now is giving you the most joy? And what is one of the challenges that you're facing in your life right now?

Amy Chan | Oh, great question. Um, what's giving me the most joy is so I moved back to my hometown of Vancouver during the pandemic after living in New York for eight years. And I've really invested in building community here. So I went on friend dates to meet new female friends who are like minded in similar stages in their career. I invested in my old friends who have different paths. They have like, a lot of children, they're married. But I've been doing these gatherings. And I actually just had a career shower, where I...

Robin Ducharme | Yes! I saw that. I love that.

Amy Chan | Yeah because there's always showers for like births and weddings. I was like, Well, how about the people who are getting promoted? Who bought their own home? Who started their own company? How about them? So I did a career shower, and it was just such a rewarding, fulfilling heart connecting time and it's something I'll be doing more. So that sort of stuff is bringing me a lot of joy.

Robin | Wow.

Amy | Yeah. The other side, which is more challenging. I would say, like, I don't really talk about this, but I'll just share with you, Robin. I've been in a relationship for three years and we locked down together, we were only dating for six months.

Robin | Wow, six months and you were locked down. Wow.

Amy | Yeah. We met in New York and he's born and raised in New York, and we moved to my hometown of Vancouver. And it's been so rewarding being in this partnership. But there's also challenges and I'm a relationship expert and sometimes, I am really hard on myself, because I feel like I should know all the answers. And I'm usually the one people come to. So it's a little hard for me to go to my friends and talk about it. So I would say that that's a challenge for me.

Robin | Yes. You talk about that in I believe it is. I mean, I loved your book. Amy. I do want to say I loved your book. And I learned so much from you. You know I think when it comes down to what you said before it like your work is your work right? But bottom line is relationships are challenging no matter what. It is just inevitable. Really though. But coming and being able to open up and be vulnerable about that space. You know that you are in and you're supposed to this expert. Well, guess what, no matter what, it's gonna be hard. So and you know what, I just love that career shower idea that is beautiful, just such a great thing to do. We got to celebrate a lot of milestones in each other's lives. Of course, not just babies and weddings. Perfect.

Amy | Yeah.

Robin | So I want to ask you about your Renew Boot Camp. So you started. You started the world's first breakup boot camp called Renew in 2016. Right?

Amy | Yeah.

Robin | So can you tell us about that? Like what is the Renew Boot Camp? You talk about this in your book. But really, what is it? And why did you start Renew?

Amy | Yeah. So when I was living in Vancouver, this was about 10 years ago, I was in a relationship and I was on the path of happily forever after and to me back then it meant date an entrepreneur, move in, get married, have kids and I would work on the side for fun. And I was on track for that life. And that relationship fell apart, very suddenly, really dramatically. And I just spiraled. And it was just at the darkest time of my life, I had suicidal thoughts, I fell into depression. And I tried to do things like go to yoga retreats, but I felt like it was just procrastinating my pain. And, you know, it took me about two and a half years to actually fully move through and process everything and get to a place where I'd really just accepted and let go. And I just thought like, Well, what happens to those people who don't have friends that are going to lead them their couch to stay, and who don't have the, even an idea of where to start, or what books to read or anything like that. What happens to them? Because I know, for me, I was just a few bad decisions away from doing something completely destructive. And I was like, I need to do this, I need to create something where people can get away. It's beautiful. They're taken care of. It's luxurious. But they're also getting the specific type, they need to deal with the grief of heartbreak, because it is very specific. And so that's where the idea Breakup Bootcamp came. And what it is, now, it's a four day retreat. It's always in nature. There's a onsite chef team that's making sure you eat well. And there's a team of 10 different experts from psychologists, behavioral scientists, anxiety coaches, sex therapists, who are there to teach you specifically on how to grieve and process in a healthy way. But not only that, it's never just about the ex. There's recycled pain. And so we really dive into what are the patterns and subconscious beliefs that have been kicking around way before this person? And how do we shift those patterns so that you don't just recreate the same emotional experience over and over again?

Robin | Wow, I love that like that. You're giving people the 4d experience? Yes, you're being pampered and taken care of. And having you having them lead through this healing in four days. And that's why the bootcamp, right. I mean, a lot of people don't have that opportunity. But the people that do I imagine that is just like, What an experience to go through. I so I've got a lot of quotes that I've quoted, Amy, we've shared so many quotes of yours that are on Instagram. And I've got a lot more quotes in this in this podcast, because there's just it's so good. So one of the things you say is that the pain doesn't go away, it transforms. So we're not trying to just like, it's not about like being pain-free, right? It's about changing and working with your pain. I'm not here to take away your pain. I provide tools to help you love through the pain. You want to love through the pain. I was like, Oh, that's good. Your pain is a catalyst for change. You're not broken, you're bruised. Yeah. I love that idea about facing your pain and using it as a catalyst for change. So can you talk about that? When you're, you know, that's one of the things that you when in your book, kind of break it down and say like, Hey, when when we're sitting when people women, it's predominantly women that show up for these retreats. Right, Amy?

Amy | Yeah.

Robin | And you're like, Okay, we're all in. You're all in a lot of pain right now. So how is it that you're helping these people to use their pain as a catalyst for change?

Amy | Yeah, I think it's a process. And I think it starts with shifting your relationship with these feelings that many of us will judge as good or bad. So when we're sad, or we're mad, it's very easy to be like, Oh, that's bad, that's negative. But it's just being human. And our emotions exist for a reason. They are telling you something. And sometimes it's telling you something it's replaying something historical, but regardless, if we can just stop trying to run away from the emotions, distract them, judge them and just sit with them, be curious with them not slam or shame yourself as good or bad, weak or strong. Just be like, Oh, this is very human, I'm just expanding my emotional range. And it really shifts the energy of this thing you're trying to escape. Versus okay, what can I extract here? How can I sit with it? And you basically you learn, going through something so hard. You learn so much about yourself, you learn so much more about how resilient you really are. And through that pain, there's something there that's helping you grow and evolve. When I went through my darkest time, of course, I didn't think oh, yeah, one day, I'm going to use this, I'm going to be the founder of a breakup bootcamp, I'm going to dedicate my whole life to that I didn't think that at all, like, I'm going to die. But you know, now I have just such a different relationship with pain. So even now, when I go through hard things, or I lose something, or life takes a pivot, I don't, I don't get destroyed anymore. I know that, oh, I can learn something here I can grow, I have enough evidence that one door closes, and eventually another one opens, I might not know what that is. But I'm okay with the uncertainty. And that is a skill, you grow that muscle.

Robin | It is a skill, it's, you know, we're gonna get into this but you that's, that's one of the skills that you teach in your retreats as well as your book is reframing and that is a really important skill. So one thing you did allude to just a little while ago was, with your breakup, your breakup that, you know, was very traumatizing and sudden and all these things is that it's the plan, right? I love the story you tell about you know, your when this one group that you lead in retreat, that you're all set in a circle, and you realized, you notice that they all had one thing in common. And that was in their heads, they all embraced a linear relationship model, which is so incredible, I mean, come on, there's, I was like that with my, you know, with my first marriage I'm remarried now, but I mean, when I was 29 years old, I was like, Okay, I have that model in my head. I know a lot of girls, women, females, people in general, like, doesn't matter what gender doesn't, I think we have this idea that or plan in life, okay, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna meet this person, fall in love, get married, have children work on our career. It's just like this linear path. Right? And if it's if your path is broken, that's, it's, That sorry, your plan is success. Right?

Amy | Yeah.

Robin | So what do you say about that? Amy? Right. I think this is just too common is that we all have this plan. You're attached to it?

Amy | We're almost indoctrinated into this plan.

Robin | Yes.

Amy | Through the stories, the media, the fairy tales. And, look, I think things are different now. But we still have the same version of the same story, right? Whether it's Cinderella, waiting for their prince, whether it's Carrie Bradshaw waiting for Mr. Big to come around, whether it's Bridgerton convincing the guy like, there's just, it's just packaged up in different ways. And there is a story, whether it is the celebrations we have for women, which are bridal showers and baby showers, right? It's constant in different areas coming at you that to be a woman, to be a successful woman is to follow these timelines that by this age, you have this and then this and then this. And if you don't have it, then there's something wrong with you. And it's just simply not that, you know, and I think that I would say one of the biggest lessons I learned from that breakup was I, I was all about the plan all about control. And I've now embraced that you have no idea what's going to happen even if you plan it out. And, and like, all you could do is build resilience, and know that you have the tools to get back up, and that you're not going to stay down there in this crazy intense pain, like it will eventually get better. You can do things to help yourself, and they're not permanent states of misery. And it's just part of life it's like it's full of pivots. And you're the author of the story. You know, I make this comment when I'm at the retreat. I ask the women I say if you had a choice A you were able to choose the life you wanted you know you could choose I want this life or this life before we came into earth. And the life A was okay every day you're gonna wake up you're gonna eat the same thing. You're gonna work a nine to five job, you're gonna go to Hawaii once a year. For every single day till you die, you will have no pain, you will have no conflict, that's just gonna be your life, or would you choose option B? You, you know, had some hardships, you overcame them. You became an overachiever in school, and then you started this company. And then you got hurt and you wrote a book. And then you come to break up bootcamp. And then you learned from a dominatrix. Like, which story would you choose? And they're like, oh, yeah, well, obviously, I choose B. Right? We wouldn't choose the boring story where nothing happens. And we're never hur, what type of life would that be? And so I really like encourage people, you're just an author, each one of these things, they're chapters, if something blew up in your face, not according to plan. All right, you'll learn from that you'll start another chapter.

Robin | Yes. Letting go of the plan, I think is just so important for all of us. Because, yeah, so this quote, I love this. It's about strength. Strength is the practice of opening your heart, even when it hurts, especially when it hurts. I think we can we can shy away from wanting to experience that pain, is to confront the pain with compassion and curiosity, even when it feels much easier to avoid, distract, or suppress. Strength is to allow the feelings to expand your emotional range. So how is it that we can, like what does it mean to expand your emotional range? Because obviously, people in heartbreak are in like this. It is so incredibly painful, like viscerally like, the feeling in your body. You feel it in your heart, that's for sure. Your mind is doing all this crazy thinking, like all this crazy thinking and circles and making up a lot of stuff and focusing on a lot of the pain. What do you teach about expanding emotional range?

Amy | Yeah, I used to really hate that I was very sensitive. And I was told by people that I was too emotional or too intense, and too much. Men told me that. And if you think about the greatest singers, Celine Dion, Adele, they are incredible at their craft, because they have such a wide range. And I think the same thing is to be human, is when we're feeling the depths of despair, and grief. When we feel, feel the highs of joy and love and excitement, it's expanding your emotional rage, it allows you to feel more. But if you just restrict yourself to only these set of emotions, which you deem is okay, or acceptable, you also hinder your ability to feel the other side of the emotions. And so to be human is to feel and now I'm like, what an honor that I get to feel that because the very fact that I have a lot of emotion that I'm sensitive that I'm intense is my gift. It's not something to be ashamed of. And like, even sometimes when my my boyfriend will go like, Oh, don't cry. I'm like, No, No, you should be honored to be witnessing these tears. This is amazing.

Robin | I think that's a common thing for a man to say to a woman, like, oh, like, I don't want to see you cry. Like I don't like let's not, like, you know, and it's almost like, I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to make you feel a certain way. Well, I am hurting right now. It's okay, but I'll get through it. But it's just like, you can't prevent me from getting hurt, something like, you know, protecting us in some way?

Amy | Yeah. I mean and I think that's kind of similar to the guys who said to me like, oh, like, You're too sensitive, you're too emotional. That isn't my problem. Oh, you actually are uncomfortable witnessing and being in the presence of these emotions. And so instead of acknowledging that, or even being aware of it, you've turned it around and made it something that was defective in me. Absolutely not. That's garbage.

Robin | Yes, it is garbage. So heartbreak is very similar. Like when you're going through a heartbreak. It's like, you teach that it's like it is really like grieving a love, you are grieving a loved one, you're grieving a relationship, you're grieving what you have with that person. And it's so, it is grieving. So it's like losing somebody that's passed away in your life that you loved very much, right? And so there's different stages. And so the process is like helping people understand that you know what, you need to go through all these stages. It's like, you know, I learned, my twin passed away, my dad passed away very soon after. And it's like, I did go through the stages of grief. And yeah, I didn't skip any I went straight. I hit it head on. But what I did learn about grief is like, if you are if you're going to try to bypass any of those stages, It's gonna come and get you no matter why it could be years down the road and like all the sudden, you're like you didn't grieve? Okay, well, now's your time. Right. And I think that's how some people get stuck in heartbreak, because they're not going through the stages.

Amy | Right. There's no release and processing, and instead, it is like, Oh, this is so uncomfortable, I'm going to shove it down, I'm going to distract myself, I'm going to reach for this vise to not feel it, I'm going to numb it. But like you said, it just catches up to you. And it usually catches up and it blows up like a volcano at some point. And so yeah, and like with, with heartbreak, you're grieving many things, you are grieving the relationship, you're grieving, probably your best friend, you're grieving the future, you will now not have, you are grieving a part of your own identity. And sometimes too your ego is grieving of like, oh, so maybe they're gonna be with someone else. Or maybe there was infidelity. So there's that grief as well. It's so much grief stacked on top of one another, of course, it's going to be overwhelming. But that is part of the stages, it's part of the shock stage, and you eventually do move through them. And it's not linear, you might jump back and forth between different ones or feel multiple ones at the same time. But yeah, it's so important to, to allow yourself to go through it, and not shame yourself for feeling those feelings.

Robin | So the different stages that people will go through, can you go through those, Amy?

Amy | Yeah, there's shock, which is really your body's way of protecting itself, because it helps you not get so overwhelmed too quickly by the new reality, you then go into denial, which is like, oh, maybe it's gonna be okay, if I just did this, or maybe you know, it's gonna be fine. And you kind of like, don't want to accept the reality once it's sinking in. And then eventually you accept the reality like, oh, my gosh, this is done. And that's when typically you go into depression, but it's situational depression. So it's because of the situation not because you have depression. After depression is anger. Anger is actually a very helpful stage. So it shows that energy is moving and it really launches you out of depression and into action. So typically, anger makes you realize there's been an injustice or there's been a wrong that needs to be righted, maybe there was a boundary that was crossed. And this propels someone to be like, Okay, well, what am I going to do about this? I am going to go back to the gym, now I'm going to go do something, I'm gonna feel better. I'm going to stop just crying in the fetal position. After anger is a stage called bargaining, which is very similar to denial. And that's when again, we're like, well, maybe it wasn't so bad. The missing comes back and the withdrawal comes back, that you can really easily rationalize like, oh, okay, it's okay, I'll just get back together. And sometimes people are stuck in bargaining for a while they get back together until they do it enough times. And they're like, oh, the same thing is gonna keep happening, which then launches them into what I call accountability. So accountability is when you start instead, looking at, oh, how am I a major player in this? What can I do? What did I do? What can I do differently? The conversation starts to shift from they/them, psychoanalyzing them to yourself, and then you get into acceptance, where you're like, you fully accept that the relationship is over. It doesn't mean that you don't have residual feelings. It doesn't mean that you're not going to miss a person. But you are not in denial any more. You're in reality, you know that it's done. And you're prepared to take the steps to move forward.

Robin | Yes. So you talk about and you know, it's funny, because just a few weeks ago, I interviewed Guy Winch who is also an expert in heartbreak. I mean, a lot of his work is centered around heartbreak. And he talks about, yes, there's the physical that's going on in your body. And there's so much, and you talk about this in your book, is the physiological. What your brain is going through is so painful, like in your brain, right? And how your brain is, is going through withdrawal. You're used to being and there's like this dopamine like so you go into the science, there is so much science around this, right. So can you talk about that about how physiologically you're going through it in the heartbreak?

Amy | Yeah. So Dr. Helen Fisher did a really interesting study on the brains of people who are newly separated and they actually scan their brains. And what they found was the same part of the brain was activated as a drug user feening for a fix. So the summary was that wow, like after a separation, your brain is like, look looks like a like a drug addict. And so you're in withdrawal, you're feeling these withdrawal symptoms. And another thing is, when you're in the relationship, you're used to getting these feel-good chemicals, dopamine, oxytocin, these bonding chemicals. And so after a separation, even though logically, you know, it's over your body's like, what the hell's going on here, like they didn't get the memo. And so it's going to cause you to take action to go and get it. So that's why you might have this urge to check their Instagram stories, or to text them or to reread old text messages, or even psychoanalyze anything in your brain, it's still giving you some access to them. And so understanding what's going on in your body and in your brain and in your nervous system is helpful because if you're not aware that these things are going on, you're gonna think that you're crazy. But you're not crazy. Your body's going through this process, it needs to reach a new equilibrium, and it's going to take some time, but that intensity will eventually start to, it'll hit its peak, and then it will start to minimize.

Robin | Yes. So something you talk about, I love this, you say that it's about shame, right? And you say, shame, can be toxic, painful, and even deadly among the women who come to Renew shame is a central theme of their suffering. So what and I can relate, I think a lot of us can relate to this, right? It's like you feel shame like, let's just say you're married, and you've got children. And just like, I never planned for this like to get divorced in my life. Are you kidding me? Like that was never part of my plan. And it's like, so incredibly devastating. And I'm so full of shame around that. Right? That'd be one example. But what are some of the reasons that women are feeling shame? What are the ways is that showing, how is that showing up?

Amy | I think a common way it's showing up is this belief that there's something wrong with them. So because it didn't work out, because their partner cheated, the story becomes very personalized, of like, Oh, I'm not pretty enough. I'm not sexy enough. I'm not this enough. And that's where a lot of the shame comes from. It's this, this fundamental feeling that I am flawed, and I am broken, and there's something wrong with me. The second part of it is, I think people who will come to a Breakup Boot Camp, it self selects. So it's typically a very high achieving group. And high achievers are very used to being able to fix problems, you want to hit a goal, you do ABC, you get the goal. And with heartbreak, it's just not like that. You can do A, B and C and you'll still be reeling from the pain. And so there's this almost impatience, and self blame and shame around not being able to just bounce back and getting back into it. And, you know, they, there's this lack of gentleness and compassion that they have with themselves.

Robin | And that is, and that is what you say the antidote to shame is self compassion and kindness towards oneself. Right. So the other and then the so that is internal, like your shame, your shame is internalizing, and like blaming yourself really, yeah. Right. Whereas then there's blame, right? A lot of and then there's other, you know, state of thinking is like, okay, when you blame, this is another quote of yours, when you blame, you're shackled to the person who hurts you giving that person the keys to your emotional freedom. This was like, I thought about this, I'm like, That is so true. Because if you're blaming somebody, you are literally still attached to that person. You are and blame keeps your recovery dependent on the actions of another person, and something that you ultimately cannot control. The powerlessness keeps you in a state of suffering. So there's shame that people can be in, the blame, and then you want to move into reframing.

Amy | Yeah, I say this often, like if you are still blaming your ex, psychoanalyzing your ex, hoping for your ex to change, hoping they're gonna come back and just give you closure. You're still in a relationship with your ex, you're just in a relationship with someone who's not in a relationship with you. And blaming is very interesting, because it's like hot potato with your emotions. It's like you feel this thing and you don't want to feel it. So you throw it at them and it's like, it's your fault. You did this. And it might even feel temporarily relieving but it ultimately it just keeps you hooked on this relationship, right? It's the last part of the relationship you've got left. And so you might vilify your ex and blame them for being a narcissist or a psychopath, or whatever it is. And now, I don't mean to say like, there's some situations where there's abuse and someone's done something totally terrible. And it's not that they shouldn't take accountability, and that somehow they're right, I'm not talking about that, but I am talking about this holding on to this emotional charge about what this person did or did not do. And there's a point where it just is not serving you, and it's keeping you stuck in the past. And so I think, with reframing part of what we teach is, is looking at the current relationship narrative that you currently have, and I have the people come do this, they have to write out the relationship narrative, just like they were, they were telling a friend for the first time. And then I teach them about cognitive distortions, these thinking traps that we're privy to their judgment errors that cause us caused us to amplify pain, depression, sadness, anxiety, and a few, for example, is all or nothing thinking. You say they always do this, this never happens to me, it's actually just not true. It's not factual. generalizations, personalization, being caught up in shoulds, having these arbitrary rules that people should be following, or even yourself, and when they're broken, you feel like there's this big injustice, and that they owe you something. All of these are thinking traps. So the second part of the exercise is, once they learn these, they have to circle all of the thinking traps that are in their story. And there's usually a few go to ones that they tend to do. And then they have to rewrite their story without the thinking, trust with just the facts. And what they find is the story ends up being a lot less emotionally charged, and you're actually dealing with reality. And then we have a starting point to start healing. Because if you're constantly not grounded in reality, it is very hard to heal.

Robin | Absolutely. You tell that story. You tell a story about your your own breakup, your breakup from your partner, and how you were you were with another friend, and you were saying all these things about your ex, right? And your friend turns to you and says like, okay, Amy, is this story serving you? And you're like, No, I don't think so. It's really not helping me, right? And it's not helping me anymore. And then that was when you went home and you wrote on pink stationery this letter to your ex, right? And how and how it was really reframing because it was like, it was like this light switch on like, looking at Oh, actually your friend was like, Okay, well tell me, what are the really good things that you had that relationship? What were good things about, that he brought the gifts and the good things, the good times you had? And the good things that you did together? And all of the positives because every relationship, most relationships have, of course, both. You can gonna be so stuck in the pain and the negativity around it, that all you can see is is the bad things about that person. But yeah, there's so much more. Right?

Amy | Yeah. And that's another cognitive distortion. It's called negativity bias, where we just folk zero in, we have a narrative of they're a villain. And we will find all the data to support that narrative that we don't see anything else. And that can actually really cause a lot more suffering.

Robin | Yes. So if somebody reads your book, and they're going through the different stages. And let's say, okay, they're in the acceptance stage. They're now like, feeling like, Okay, I've really done the work here. I'm feeling better about I've done my reframing. I sure as heck don't want to make the same mistakes in the next relationship that I that I don't want this to be a repeat with a different person. Right. So that those are the those are the skills that you're also teaching is, you say, sometimes a breakup is the shake up, you need to redirect your life andin order to design your next relationship in a different way. Right? So this, this was something that I was that I really resonated with was, or just this idea that we show up different ways in our relationships. So I think there was like seven different ways that people can show up in relationships, right? Can we go through those Amy? Like a few of them? We don't have to go through all of them. But I think that this was like, Oh, I could totally see this as like, Okay, I'm this and I'm this, and I could see somebody, like one of my friends, I guess she shows up like this, or you know, I just think that we show up in different roles. And sure, and what the core of that means for us.

Amy | For sure. Yeah, I mean, one I see a lot is the over giver. And I would say 85% of the people who come to breakup bootcamp are over givers, and there's a lot of resentment. Now, if you pull back the layers of that. The root of why people over give is generally, they learned at a very young age, some boot a belief, I'm not worthy. And so to be worthy, they have to overcompensate. And they over give. Usually it's not just in romantic relationships, they're usually the one taking on more stuff at work. They're overgiving with their friends. And there's this constant feeling of resentment. So there's two things happening there. There's an old belief, a subconscious belief that's causing them to behave in certain ways. And as a child, that might have been what they needed to do to survive, they didn't have other tools. But as an adult, if you look at the results, and you're like, oh, wait, this is causing me a lot of dysfunction in my relationships, then it's time to be like, Okay, we need to learn a different coping mechanism, because that's maladaptive. The second thing is we are also, we can be addicted to emotions. And so I know for myself, I used to be an over giver. And the emotion I used to be addicted to is resentment. And so I have to even to this day, look, when I'm feeling this Oh, like, I'm imbalance, my natural tendency because I've done it for so long, is just to put my foot on the gas pedal and give more, and I have to stop myself and be like, wait, let it balance out, express your needs, communicate, receive someone who's trying to give to you. And also ask myself like, oh, is the root of this giving? Is it actually coming from a place of abundance of generosity? Or is it coming from a place of fear, insecurity and scarcity, or control, because it could be that the present wrapped in the same wrapping, but the root energy changes the outcome. So you might think you're giving but you're actually taking, because the root of that is coming from scarcity. So, you know, like, we can blame our partners and be like, Oh, they were such a taker. But if it's happening across a span of your relationships, well there's a pattern there, and until you start to work on that, and start making small changes on a daily basis, you will just attract a similar partner who will wound you in the similar way, because your psyche is trying to change it's ending.

Robin | Yes. Wow. So another one would be the pleaser. Right? Yeah. So you bend over backwards for your relationship, for other people. You've adapted to becoming a doormat, right? And underneath all of that, and you prioritize others before yourself. So and the root of that would be like, I'm not worthy of love.

Amy | Yeah, so the root of that also could have been a childhood where it was not safe to voice your needs. So maybe your caregiver just didn't take your needs seriously. And, or shamed you for expressing what you wanted it so it was not safe for you to express yourself. And you adapted to that. To be over accommodating, and to edit yourself and never rock the boat. And so yeah, that's another thing that shows up. So you become this people pleasing person. And then it's not, sometimes it's not that your partner is this evil person trying to take advantage of you, but you're also setting a precedent in the relationship. So they get so used to you taking care of everything, and they can sit back, they're like, Okay, I'll just, I'll just do this.

Robin | Yes. So it's how, so it's changing this pattern, and the way you show up like, it's just really it's so so much about learning about yourself, and how you are in relationship, so so that it is much more balanced. And it's coming from this place of self love, self assuredness confidence, your inner strength. So how does somebody even identify where you're showing, how you're showing up in relationship, Amy?

Amy | Yeah, I think the one of the exercises we do is we look at what, what is like the beliefs that's kicking around, and a lot of times, it's not even conscious. So this exercise is in the book. It's also what I do at boot camp, I read out a bunch of the different beliefs. I have everyone close their eyes, and there's usually one that kind of stands out or kind of physically feel it and we'll work on that. And then there's a process of shifting that belief, almost like you're climbing a ladder one rung at a time you don't go from I'm not worthy of love to like everybody loves me and, you know, despite the Instagram quotes that tell you just repeat affirmations like that, your brain will actually, it can actually do more harm, your brain will inherently reject what it doesn't believe is true. So if your belief is I'm not enough, the updated belief that's a little bit more true, a little bit more helpful could be. There are some people that I trust, who accept me for who I am. And you just want a little bit more true, a little bit more helpful. You look for evidence of that being true, you try on that belief. Like you're wearing a new colored scarf, seeing how you feel in it, until that becomes your new baseline. And then you go, Okay, now, what's the rung up from this? And you just keep going until you reach your desired goal belief. And it's a process that works, right? But it happens slowly. And gradually. One rung at a time.

Robin | I love the section in your book that talks about okay, now you're ready to date again. So but this you know, you want to do this in a very, you know, a clear way, okay? Like we, you know, you've talked about like this idea about soulmates, Okay, forget about the soulmate shopping, right? Soulmate shopping is a surefire way to stay single, avoid true intimacy, and eventually walk away from relationships the moment the sparks fade. Yes, I love that. Right. And then you talk about chasing unicorns, which I think oh my gosh, it's like this idea. And I think this is just so common, right? It's like, you want to convince yourself that even if this person shows up, and they're like, the unicorn, but they're gonna change, you know, you just stick around, and things will change. So you have that really good story that you shared with me about chasing unicorns. Right? It was, it was a two year long distance relationship. And you talked about unicorn confirmation bias, and soulmate idealizing. And in the end, this person was and he says to you, you just weren't relationship material. Oh, my gosh, Amy, like I just I think anybody could relate to this story. Like, can you just quickly go through that story? Because I think we can all learn from that.

Amy | Yeah, so I met this guy at Burning Man. And I saw him and I just knew, but like, let's be honest here. I knew who he was before I met him because he was a big tech entrepreneur. And so, you know, I think I was still I just still at that time wanted to be someone's plus one. I didn't have these things in my life. At that point. I was working a job I didn't really like, you know, I was pretty broke living in New York, and I meet this guy who's like a multimillionaire, who's an entrepreneur, who everyone respects. And so yeah, it was really easy for me to like soulmate. bells are ringing. And we weren't even in a relationship. Like, I was in a relationship with him in my head. He wasn't in a relationship with me. And like, you know, for over two years, like we would see each other here and there sporadically, spontaneously, but they were always peak experiences, like, you know, a Michelin starred dinner. Like some crazy fast adventure. So they were always these highs, but we never had reality together. So everyone else was bland compared to him, because this person was my unicorn. He was my Mr. Big. And I created in my head, this idea of who he was this idea of what our life would be. And, you know, it just wasn't based in reality. So, yeah, and then eventually he ends up you know, I always thought he wasn't ready to be in a relationship, because he's going through a lot. And I was like, oh, okay, you're not ready to be in a relationship right now. All right, I'm just gonna stick around and wait it out and prove through my loyalty to someone who wasn't even loyal to me, then you'll eventually pick me and hand me the rose. No, it didn't happen.

Robin | Yes, yes. But you were willing to stick it through because you said and you're like, right, I think this is just you, you were convincing yourself that actually, you know, it's gonna work out and you and you're shocked when he's like, Well, you're not I don't think your relationship material. Right. So let's talk about reciprocation because I think this is such when it comes down to it. It's such a simple, simple thing to actually understand. But in the dating world, you really and if you're with let's just say you're with somebody in a relationship, like if there's first of all, even just dating, let's just get down to the bones of it. There should be reciprocation, especially in the beginning, right? Or just through out, but I think this is something that a lot of a lot of people will actually just not even consider that you're putting so much in and you're not getting what you deserve or what you need back. Right? Yeah. So this okay, I wanted to quote one of your life coaches, Trish.

Amy | This is okay. I love this quote. She says, hope will fuck you have hope for humanity have hope for world peace, but do not have hope for a person to change. You cannot hope your relationship into existence. Right?

Robin | I know.

Robin | So what are some signs of reciprocation that are important to have in a budding relationship? I mean, really, like, let's just go through just some basics like that, you that you definitely need to have in a, in like the signs in a budding relationship. A reciprocation.

Amy | Yeah. So there is an initiation to see you and make plans. That's not just a last minute thing, sometimes last minute, okay, but that's not the precedent. There's some cadence of communication. Now, people have different communication styles. But there is some sort of a consistency, it doesn't mean ask me every single day, depending on where you're at in the relationship, but it's not, you know, they don't just disappear for two weeks. That's very odd behavior, and it's not a good sign. And I think this is something like you have to be really honest with like your kind of your internal balance. Because if you tend to veer more as an over giver, or a people pleaser, what will happen is, it might start off, even you take one step, they take one step, and then maybe start liking them a lot. And then you take two steps, they just take one, then you take three steps, they just take one, and then you're like, Oh, well, I just double my steps to make up for their lack of steps, hoping they're going to come around and realize how amazing I am because I made them banana bread, whatever. And that's where you have to really fight you're, you're kind of natural instinct to want to put your foot on the gas pedal and give more and just give it space, not saying cut the person off, right? It doesn't mean that they're evil or they're a fuckboy, like, it just means like, there are power dynamics. And my boyfriend actually said this to me. He's like, because I asked him, I'm like, in the past, he was single. And I think that he was in these casual relationships. And I was like, Well, what, why are you not doing the same thing with me? And he's like, Well, if you think about power of say, there's 100% If someone's already coming with 80%, you only leave me 20. I was like, oh my gosh, like that really resonated. I was like, it's really true. So if you're already like, Okay, I'm gonna like change. I'm going to make it really easy so that you can see me. I'll change my schedule, so it's on yours. I'll you know, drive an hour to see you. I'll bring a gift. I'll make it convenient. You're going in at 90%, they only have 10%.

Robin | Yes, yes. I really, really like that. And that and that feeling of being like, just even you saying it that way though. I myself, I'm like, ugg. You know, like, you just feel like, oh, that doesn't feel right. Does it feel good that they're just accommodating you 100%. And you're just having right? You just feel like, Oh, no backup a bit. Backup. Give me some space.

Amy | It's the same thing with friends though. Right? These dynamics happen also in friendships.

Robin | Yes, yes, true. Okay, we were running out of time. But okay, well, I just want to make one more really quick point about which I loved is like, and I've heard this before, and I've said it before. And in that looking for a partner, you've got to treat it more like looking for a job. And I love this analogy. It's, you know, you say, okay, like, let's say you lose your job, and okay, now you're on the job hunt, okay, I'm looking for an awesome career. And I'm not just gonna jump into the first one, I need to like, take my time, check out the market. And what's going on, you know, in perspective, places I want to work at what career paths could I take, and you're not just going to, like, let's say you get a second stage interview, you're not going to like let go of the other prospective jobs that you're looking at. And it's the same thing with dating. Yeah, I really, I really liked that, like you can't, when you say when you start off in scarcity mode, you're going to be a lot more desperate, and will likely take a bad deal and not negotiate your terms.

Amy | So true, right? If you like, it's the same. Like if you have zero savings, you're gonna take the first thing that you can get. But if you start to save up, and I think this translates in life, if you start to work on building your confidence, doing things that are more self nurturing, and can build up your reserves of self love, it's going to change what offers you'll even accept. Right? Your standards start to change when you have options your standards raise.

Robin | Yes.

Amy | So like, you know, and I don't mean like you have to get to this place of like, you're totally healed and you're in self love island. No, that's also unrealistic. But there is, you know, some foundation of of feeling worthy. And so I really do recommend to people, if you keep having these relationships that are unhealthy and falling apart, then maybe the next thing you do, don't just do the same thing. Maybe you just take some time to like really work on the foundation. And then after you've built that up just even a bit, then see, because that's going to shift who you're drawn to and who's drawn to you.

Robin | Yes, absolutely. Well, Amy, I can't believe the time has gone by so fast. I love talking to you. And I like the work you're doing is, is amazing, helping people, you know, work through their heartbreak. And really, at the end of the day, create, you know, you don't have to go into the next relationship. It's about building yourself back up. And then and then eventually, if you do want to be back in a relationship, it's like doing it differently, possibly, and creating, creating something that's, that you'll be, you'll be strong and happy in. So where can people continue to work and follow you and learn from you?

Amy | Yeah, so renewbreakupbootcamp.com is my website. My book is Breakup Bootcamp: The Science of Rewiring Your Heart and my Instagram is @missamychan.

Robin | Okay, wonderful. Well, I'm so excited to talk to you on our IG Live next.

Amy | Yeah, this was so fun.

Robin | It was so fun. Amy, thank you. One of my favorite quotes that you've said is, this is really good. It's You don't want to fall in love. You want to stand in love. I love that. So thank you, Amy, for being with us. And I look forward to our Instagram Live. And just continuing working with you, for sure.

Amy | Awesome. Thank you.

Robin | Thank you. Bye.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey