Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 2 Episode #3 with Logan Ury | Transcript

22.09.22

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | For our listeners who are on a journey to find a loving partnership, this podcast is for you. Today I'm interviewing Logan Ury, a Behavioral Scientist, turned Dating Coach, and the author of the best-selling book, How To Not Die Alone: The Surprising Science That Will Help You Find Love. As the Director of Relationship Science at the dating app Hinge, Logan conducts research to help people find love. She studied psychology at Harvard, has run a behavioral science team at Google, and now spends her days helping singles find lasting love. Logan says many people suffer from dating blind spots, patterns of behaviors that hold you back. We are going to dive into the Behavioral Science of Love and learn from Logan how dating apps really work and how to date online in the most effective way. This is one conversation you won't want to miss. Enjoy. Welcome to the Let's Talk Love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless, of relationship status, We will talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts we will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk love. Today I am joined by an amazing guest. Her name is Logan Ury. And Logan wrote an incredible book that I just finished. It's called How To Not Die Alone: The Surprising Science That Will Help You Find Love. And Logan, I'm just so thrilled to have you here with us for this conversation. And your book is so full of practical and inspiring dating wisdom. And before we dive in Logan, oh, first of all, thank you for joining us, Logan. [laughs]

Logan Ury | Yeah, thank you for having me. I've heard such good things about you and Real Love Ready and I'm just very happy to be here.

Robin Ducharme | Oh, this is wonderful. We have obviously a large community of people that are in the market to find lasting love. And I just can't wait to dive into all of the science that you are here to share with us, as well as all the tips and your experience. So the first question I always ask my guests is, what in your life is giving you the most joy right now? And what is one of the biggest challenges that you're facing in life right now?

Logan Ury | Oh, that's so fun. Good place to start. Yes. So I live in a communal living environment. It's a place called Radish. I live with about 13 other people. And now there's a baby here. And so I have my own apartment. But we have like a shared kitchen. We have dinner together every night at 7:30. People take turns cooking, we have a fire pit and a hot tub, and a sauna. And it's really cool. And it's basically just like people in the Bay Area who are like life is better lived when you are among the people that you love. And so, yeah, it's really inspiring people. And I just love being a part of it. I think that's the thing that's bringing me the most joy in life right now. In terms of challenges. Yeah, I think it's a challenge of, you know, how do I spend my time? What do I prioritize? What do I say yes to? It's hard to say no. I think just making sure that I'm living, you know, planning for the future, but also living in the present and keeping that balance.

Robin | Yeah. I have never heard of a community like the one where you live. That is so fantastic. Oh, I'd love to hear but we will talk again so that I can learn more about this. That is very that is just incredible. So, Logan, your background is very fascinating. You're a Harvard graduate in psychology. You've worked at Google as the director and now you work as a director of relationship science at Hinge.

Logan | Exactly.

Robin | So can you share more about your everyday work with helping people find love and why you wrote the book How To Not Die Alone?

Logan | Yeah! Absolutely. Yeah, so my work in the current state takes a few different forms. So I do one on one coaching with people so I have some clients I've been working with for a while. I have some new clients and so I do one on one coaching. I also teach these classes called Date Smarter, where people learn in a community and so it's really fun because they're getting to practice with each other and, you know, practice opening lines and flirting and getting feedback on their profiles, things like that. And then I also work at Hinge and I get to conduct research into things going on in dating. So what's happening with sober dating, there's the rise of sober dating, oh, mental health is more important than ever talking about your mental health is now something that helps you get a second date as opposed to something that's stigmatized. And then I also, of course, wrote my book, and I have a newsletter. And so I do a lot of writing. And so one of the things that I enjoy most is taking information from the experts, from the scientists, from people out there who are doing interesting things in different fields. Seems like you also have this interest and translating it and bringing it to people so that they can actually incorporate it into their lives.

Robin | Yes. And I think that's what your book does a really great job of, is this is all about, there has to be practicality with this. And yes, you know, there's so much science that I loved. I loved the fact that like, first of all, your background is behavioral science, but like, how does that apply in our lives? And what you what I think you're such a great pioneer of in this in our industry, is bringing the science to practical terms. So let's talk about strategy, right? Because this is that's really what I got from like, the umbrella of what you're doing is like this is all about strategy. And people that want to date and meet someone, need to be strategic with their intentions and their actions. And that's really what your work is about. Right?

Logan | Yeah. Great summary. Absolutely.

Robin | So one of your quotes that I wrote down was "Intentional love is a series of choices, rather than falling into patterns." So can you explain this to us? Just about I would like to understand about the patterns that we, you know, maybe just you just go into that.

Logan | Absolutely, yeah. So, you know, you've mentioned behavioral science. So for anyone listening or watching who's not familiar with it, behavioral science is the study of how we make decisions. And so in traditional economics, you might think, Oh, everybody just weighs the pros and cons and decides what's best for them. Or somebody says, Oh, I need to save for retirement. So I'm going to save for retirement. But when we actually look at human behavior, we see that we often make these decisions that aren't in our own best interests. And so that's why it's like, why do I say I want to lose weight, but then when I go to, you know, my, the happy hour, I have a big piece of cake, or it's like, I'm constantly doing things that are against my own best interests. And so just understanding that that's sort of part of human behavior. And then my work is that I apply that to dating. And so I say, hey, you've been dating for a while you're showing up, you're putting yourself out there, you're not getting the results that you want. There's something going on, let's take a look at the patterns, the consistent behavior, what I call dating blind spots, right? So behavior, or attitudes that are holding you back from finding love, but most importantly, that you can't identify on your own. And so I really look back and identify those patterns. And then we say, how do we break those patterns? And how do we help you make a different choice. And so for example, a pattern could be that somebody goes on dates, but they're very negative on them. And then every day they go on, they think it's never gonna work out. It hasn't worked out the last 50 times. And they're bringing that negativity to the date. They're not connecting, they're not open, and then it doesn't work out. And so they think, Oh, it's just a numbers game, I just have to meet, you know, number 51. And it's like, no, the way you're showing up isn't working. So we have to break that change your pattern and have you date in a different way.

Robin | Absolutely. So you have three dating tendencies, this is good. You suggest the best place to start is by understanding what kind of dating tendency a person has, they can shift their attention and change their behavior. And you on your website, loganury.com/quiz. You have this is this is great. So can we go through because this one, I'm like, oh, yeah, I, I was thinking what was I? I'm married now. Which one was I? But I think we can all identify with one of the three.

Logan | Oh yeah, tell me what you were.

Robin | So can you tell me, can we go through the three and then I can tell you which on I think I was?

Logan | Definitely yes. So you know, people like to think that they're very unique. Everyone thinks that they have a unique thing going on in dating. And yes, we are all unique. But we also share many things in common. And this is where the idea for the dating tendencies came that I was like, I'm seeing all these clients of different ages, different walks of life, different parts of the world, but they're all showing up with the same things that are holding them back. And so that's what I turned into this three dating tendencies, this framework. And so the first one is aromantasizer. And I don't know you that well yet, but you do run a company around love so I'm wondering if you're a romantasizer. And so romantasizers are the ones who believe in the soulmate. There's one person out there for me, they feel like they're going to recognize the person and they're going to have this amazing meet cute moment where they both reach for the same tomato at the same time at the farmers market and They believe that if you meet the right person, it should be effortless. And so when they get into relationships, and it gets hard, inevitably they think, Oh, this must not be the person for me. If this were my soulmate, it would be easier. And so the romantasizer has unrealistic expectations of relationships. The second type is the Maximizer. This is the person who feels like, oh, I can just research my way to the perfect person, I can just swipe my way. And so they're like, Well, I really liked this woman. And I really liked this woman, could I find a third woman that has the best qualities of all of them. And so they're constantly looking for this perfect person. And they feel like they're never satisfied until they find them. And so they're perpetually looking. And they're kind of the grass is always greener person. And so they have unrealistic expectations of their partner. And then the third one is the hesitator, and they're not even dating right now. They are saying, Oh, I'm not ready to date, all day, when I have a more impressive job. When I clean up those boxes in my apartment. When I finally start therapy. It's like, there's always something holding them back. They're not dateable yet, but they will be one day. And so they're missing out on a chance to get better at dating, and they're missing out at a chance of deciding, oh, this is the kind of person who works for me. And so the hesitator has unrealistic expectations of themselves. Yes.

Robin | Yeah, you're right. I'm definitely the romantasizer. Absolutely. My previous company before Real Love Ready was called Locate Your Soulmate.

Logan | Oh, yeah. It sounds like yeah.

Robin | That says it all, doesn't it? Really? I have more realistic expectations now about relationships. You know, many years later.

Logan | So the reformed romantasizer.

Robin | The reformed soulmate, seeker. Yeah. So, let's go through the strategic process of dating, and you need, you said, you need practice dating. And that process creates peace. And you know, I really appreciated this. First of all, you say, you getting to know yourself and your preferences and needs in partnership, by dating different people, this is really important, because most people don't know what they want or need in a relationship. And I love your idea about getting in your reps. So yes, you talk about like, okay, it's like going, it's like practicing your push-ups, right? You have to, you can't just say, Okay, I want to do 30 push-ups, okay, go to the gym and try as if, right, you have to practice and you need to get stronger. And it's the same thing with dating. This is really important stuff for people to understand. Like, it's not just like, you know, this guy's gonna drop out of the sky, you need to practice so that you can know more and hone more about what what you want and what you need, right?

Logan | Yeah, this is true for everyone, but especially true for hesitators, because hesitators are like, Oh, I have to become perfect and lovable, and then I'll be out there, but it's like, well, once you're out there you're actually going to be starting from scratch, because you don't have those Dating Skills. Why don't you do that inner work in parallel with dating, because you're gonna get better at dating? And exactly, you know, people now when I talk to people about my book, they're like, I'm getting in my reps. I think it's a helpful way of thinking about it, right? We're born knowing how to love but we're not born knowing how to date. And dating requires practice. And it's as simple as how do you create an online profile that really helps you shine? What do you plan for a date that leads to connection? What do you talk about on a date that helps you stay in the flirty zone and not the friend zone? How do you go in for the kiss? How do you set up the second date? How do you define the relationship like these are skills based things that we are not born knowing how to do. And so the longer that you wait at home, saying One day, I'll do that, the longer it takes you to develop those skills. And the worst situation is the person of your dreams comes along. But then they're not interested in you because you're not ready.

Robin | Yes, absolutely. There's so many skills that you teach in your book, and there's no time to go through every single one of them. But because we've got a lot of material to cover, but this is why people have to read your book, because all the skills are so I think so important. So one of the things you do really refer to is the fact that dating is harder now. And I think that's just something that, you know because I think there's this idea that online dating is giving us this. It's like, oh, it's so much better, because you can go online, and you can shop. And we do we're gonna get into that too, about how people are shopping for a mate, rather than relationships shopping they're relationship shipping really, oh the other way around. But you point out that dating is harder than it was before. And there are many reasons for this, whether it's online or offline. So can you go through a few things of why dating is harder now?

Logan | Yeah, absolutely. And so one of the reasons why dating is harder now than ever before is that in the past, who you chose as a partner wasn't up to you. You had your community that helped you. You had maybe your father or a matchmaker or your parents were helping you right? It was like marriage was not something that happened because of love. Marriage was an Economic Institute of convenience or made financial sense, right? My parcel of land was next to your parcel of land. And so our fathers decided that we should get married. Now, it's something that is completely up to us. And so that is just a big change, right? In general, in history, people were not deciding who their partners were for themselves. Another thing is that we in general, have more freedom than we've ever had before. So if I was the same as my ancestors were 300 years ago, I'd be living in Berlin, as an Orthodox Jew. And I would know exactly when I go to synagogue, how to eat kosher, how to spend Shabbat, or what to educate my kids, every single part of my life would be predefined. In this world where a lot of people don't have religion, and things aren't defined like that. We have all this freedom. But what that also means is that if you can write your own story, and you don't like the story you write, you only have yourself to blame. And then something that I hear from singles all the time, they're like Logan, I wish I could be set up by a matchmaker, I wish I could have an arranged marriage because I'm not doing that well deciding this for myself. And so some part of that is just actually, freedom is beautiful, but it can also be overwhelming. Another thing is that we're told by society that who we choose as a partner is the most important decision we'll ever make. Warren Buffett says that Sheryl Sandberg says that we feel like wow like I can't screw this one up. Then there's other things like, we experienced Paradox of Choice. There's so many people to choose from that if you only had 10 Single people in your village, and one of them was engaged to your sister, you know, you don't have that many choices. And you choose among them. But there is this idea from Barry Schwartz that when we have so many choices, it actually makes it harder to choose. And we'd like the choice that we make less. And so of course, online dating has been incredible for many people. People have found great partners, people who are in the LGBTQ plus community people, over 55 people in rural areas. It's very helpful. But it also does introduce a sense of what else is out there.

Robin | Yeah. You said, it's analysis paralysis, right? Because there's like this choice. There are too many choices. And when you're given too many choices, it doesn't it doesn't end well. You need a limited number. And I was there it is. There's a lot of science behind that. The other thing, you the other thing that I that you really point out, because I mean, you are, you're a specialist in online dating, you work with a dating app company. So what you do point out is that apps are only able to display superficial information, not the things that we should be looking for in a mate. Right? So people are actually driven to be more superficial rather than focus on what really matters in a partner. That was like, Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Logan | Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, it's interesting. I wrote my book before I took my job at Hinge. And the way that I got my job at Hinge was that I interviewed the CEO for my book, and I was like, Alright, we have to talk about Hinge's tagline "designed to be deleted". I was like, it just doesn't make sense to me. What company wants their users to leave or to churn? You know, this, I don't believe this. And he was like Logan, I promise you that ever since we switched the app to be about intentional relationships, and designed to be deleted, we have done so much better than ever before. Because if your sister finds her husband on Hinge, if your boss finds his husband on Hinge, if you read about it in The New York Times Val section, you're hearing about successful relationships, and it makes you want to be on the app. And so being at Hinge, I really feel like every single metric, every single thing we do is getting people off the app and onto great dates. And so in that case, I feel like hinges doing a really good job with things like you can record a silly audio prompt. You can have video, there's all these ways that actually I think it goes deeper. And it's more like here's who I'm really like, I think that we are as an industry moving away from some of that superficiality to more like, here's me a bit more unfiltered. Here's my sense of humor. And it gives you a sense of what a first date would be like, even before we've met up in person.

Robin | Oh, that's wonderful. I love that. And I love that tagline. And that's, we won't go into this because the other thing I did want to mention about this how you said that dating is harder now. This was an insight that I gained from you is, you said 50% of the population are securely attached. But they're not in the dating pool. Right? They're married there with someone. The dating pool is filled with people that have anxious-avoidant attachment styles. Like, well, that is so true, because, I mean, I was that person before I met my second husband. I mean, I was divorced. And I'm right. It's like we all there's so many of us that are that came out that have come out of relationships. And it's like, we've got baggage. This is not our first go around, and so you think about that. It's like you have to you know, you have to come at this in from a different framework of a different mindset. Going and you do you talk about this in your book about being more compassionate with the people you're meeting. Because, you know, we're all here doing the same thing. We're all trying to find love. And approaching it from that way, understanding that we all have our different attachment styles and like going deeper with that, right?

Logan | Absolutely. Yeah. Isn't that an interesting one, because it's like, they say, 50% of the population is secure. And everyone's like, really, I'm not meeting them. And I'm like, there's a reason you're not meeting them. They get snatched up early on, or they're already in relationships. And so you have the anxious and avoidant people dating each other with this anxious avoidant loop. And so that's already really happening. But you know, you brought up being divorced. And that's actually one of the reasons why I encourage people to date people who are divorced is that it's possible and you can see by dating them, that that was somebody who was securely attached, they got into that early relationship, it didn't end up working out. And now that they're back in the dating pool, they're actually a catch, because they're probably, you know, going to get into another relationship quickly. They're good at being in relationships. And so when I have dating coaching clients who are like, Oh, it's a deal breaker, if someone's divorced, it means, you know, they don't have XYZ skill. I'm like, No, I have actually found that these people are realistic about relationships, they know how to put the effort, they don't want to make the same mistakes over again, and they might have been part of that securely attached pool.

Robin | So you talk about evidence-based tips for getting more matches and going on better dates.

Logan | Yeah!

Robin | So let's go through the evidence-based tips, you say you choose to chat with no more than three people at a time, I thought that was really good. Right, because...

Logan | Yeah! I can actually share some that are more updated since the book came out. Because I wrote the book before I was at Hinge, but now I've been at Hinge for two and a half years. So I have such great research, like in the weeds, you know, access to millions of data points. And so I would love to share that because like, a huge part of my job is how do we get people to date on Hinge in a way that actually works for them so they can get off Hinge and be in relationships. So one of the big things is your profile, I think people know that it's important, but they still can be kind of lazy about it. And I'm, I'm sort of shocked sometimes by profiles, I'm like, this is your billboard, this is saying like, this is who I am like, would you spend $10,000 on a billboard on a big highway, just you know, to spend two minutes on it. And so it's like, it seems obvious, but it's very important that this is you putting your best foot forward. And I also feel like, people think that when you message on the app, that's your opening line, but I actually think your profile is your opening line because your profile is putting out this is who I am. So it's like if you walked into a bar wearing a tutu, versus if you walked into a bar wearing a Game of Thrones t-shirt, you're gonna have different people approach you and say different things. And that's really you putting yourself out there in that way. And so just being so thoughtful about what's the story you want to tell? Who are you? What do you want to communicate? And showing variety showing a silly side, showing a serious side, showing that you have friends, and here's a picture of you and your active social life. And so, you know, I can understand that sometimes people feel like, Oh, this is a gross exercise in personal branding. But it's like, yeah, or you could say like, this is how you're introducing yourself to the world. And what do you want the world to know about you?

Robin | Absolutely. And something I was talking to my girlfriend about because I've got a few single friends that are dating online. And we were talking about your book and how you talk about, of course, updating your profile, updating your settings. And she admitted, she's like, No, I haven't updated my settings since you know, I think it was like six months ago. Well, things have changed and right. And so can you talk about that? It's like, et's talk about opening up your settings and opening up who you're looking for.

Logan | So in general, just from the research perspective, we know that when people are signing up for a product, whatever they put in as the settings, they rarely change. So for example, you know, in the United States, when you're signing up for a company, let's say you can do 401k, retirement savings, whatever you put as the percentage, you probably will never change again, while you work at that company, which is why it's so important for companies to encourage you to invest a high percentage early on, or you know, even something like your homescreen on your phone, you probably don't change it that often. And so how this applies to apps is that when you're signing up and you're rushing to see your matches, and you're really excited, you might just say okay, I'm 32 I'll date somebody who's 32 to 35. And that's the only people you see, meanwhile, you are preventing tons of people from being able to see you and so I think that people set their age restrictions way too strictly, their geography too strictly, people set really strict height requirements and my philosophy and what I found in the research is that in general, people think they know what they want, but they're often wrong. And so you think that you need someone who's six feet tall, okay, well, maybe that's wh you find attractive. But you could also be attracted to someone who's shorter and has a great personality. And so when we set our filters to be so strict, we're preventing ourselves from seeing a lot of potential great matches. And so for anyone listening, I would say, can you open up your app? Can you add three to five years to the age maximum, subtract three to five years from the age minimum? Can you expand your age radius? It's not that you have to date everyone. It's that I want you to realize that the kind of person who makes you happiest long term might be different from what you think.

Robin | Absolutely. It's like you have to expect that your partner is going to show up in a completely different package than you expect. And you can be attracted to many, many different people in this world. They don't have to be the six-foot, I don't know, something. So the other things you talk about is do not post what you're not looking for. Right? Come on, let's not be negative in our like, this is not what I'm looking for. Right. And you talk about focusing on what brings you joy. Yeah. And a lot of people say..

Logan | I like.

Robin | Sorry, go ahead.

Logan | I love this expression, Your vibe attracts your tribe.

Robin | Yes.

Logan | And so it's like, I just went to this really cool retreat center called Esalen. And I was like, I'm gonna buy a sweatshirt because I want to, I want somebody come up to me and be like, I love Esalen. And it's like, I just like want to put out that this is what I'm about and have somebody you know, it's going to attract those people. And it's the same thing if you really love dogs, and you want to project that, like, why don't you spend this precious real estate that you have on your profile, talking about what you love and attracting those people, as opposed to what people often do, which is like vegans swipe left, if you love Trump swipe left, and it's like, Oh, that's really what you want to project is that negativity? And so I would say, take that precious real estate, and really focus on telling people what you do want and avoiding mentioning some of these negative things of what you don't want,

Robin | Yes, so Logan, you tell the story. This is so good. Because like you said, people, some people have an idea of exactly the person that they want to attract. But actually, it's not the right person for them. They're putting out there. I love the story you told about this client that you worked with. She's looking for a burly lumberjack. She actually hated spending time in nature.

Logan | Yeah.

Robin | So I was like, that is so true for a lot of people. So can you just tell that story, please? It's really cute.

Logan | Yeah, so I had this client who said she was very attracted to lumber sexuals. And so she wanted this guy who wore the fleece jacket and was very into the woods and camping. And so when she made her profile, she made it to attract someone like that. And so she had a picture of her hiking. But when I spoke to her, I was like, I know you, you don't like any of this stuff. That's a picture from your company off-site, which you didn't even enjoy. You have a luggage tag that says, I love not camping. And so I helped her understand that the kind of person she was interested in, even if she tried to project herself as the right match for them. That's actually not who she was. And so she needed to lead with who she really was, which was, she loved travel, she was really into whiskey, she had sophisticated taste in restaurants. And through putting that self forward instead of this kind of fake projected self. That wasn't who she really was, she found a match who was a really good fit for her. And so I talk about this a lot when I teach my class, which is your profile should be flattering, but accurate. And so in that case, it wasn't accurate. And so for me, I like to tell this self deprecating story of like, there's a photo of myself, I really liked that I used to use in online dating, but at a certain point, I was like, That photo is six years old. That is not what I look like. And I don't want somebody to show up on a date and be like, Oh, you don't look the same way. And so it was flattering but not accurate. And you really have to toe that line.

Robin | Yes, you have to be accurate. So these are the big no's. Right? Like you just pointed out old photos. That's a no no. Right? pics with filters. What other things would you say?

Logan | Yeah a couple of other things. Smoking. Yeah, smoking photos are a huge turnoff to people. There are these cliches like, when I was online dating, it was the photo of the person with the sedated Tiger from the time they went to Thailand or now it's like the guy holding up the dead fish. People really hate those cliches. There's also you know, yes, selfies in general, mirror selfies. what I call the Where's Waldo pictures, which is like you as one of 10 bridesmaids and I can't tell which one you are. In general, you want to show us a clear photo of your face with no filters, a full body shot so we know what you look like something where you're with friends or family so we see your social life, and then if you have it a photo of you doing something you love because ideally your profile is saying this is who I am. This is what I'm Looking for and this is what dating me would be like.

Robin | Yeah, I like that. I really like that. So you already mentioned this before, but you want to craft your opening line. So can you give us an example? So I haven't been online dating a long time. But so right now, if you're on Hinge, is it your? Is your opening line shown in your profile right away? Or do people have to go into your profile? Like, how is it shown?

Logan | Yeah so let's say I'm looking at your profile, I would see your profile, and you would fill out six photos and a number of prompts. So prompts are written responses to icebreakers. And so I could just send you a like, but actually, the more effective way to do it is to comment on something and that's your opening line. And so let's say you had a photo of you with a really cute dog, then I would send you an opening line. And I might say something like, Hey, Robin, I noticed you have a really cute golden doodle in your picture. That's actually my dream dog. What's her favorite toy? I'll get it for her on our first date. Yeah, something like that. So it's like, what I did in that formula is I showed that I put effort in and I studied your profile, I drew a connection to myself, right? That's my favorite type of dog. And then I kind of end with a question in a flirty, a flirty date idea, basically saying I hope to meet up. And so the point is that so many people put no effort in they say, Hey, beautiful, Hi, cutie Hi sexy. How was your weekend? And it's like, you're just copying and pasting that to a million people. If you want to show that you're ready to be in a relationship. A good way to do that is to put effort in at every step of dating, including that first message that you send.

Robin | I love that. So I'm gonna tell you a personal story because I met my husband on OkCupid.

Logan | Oh nice!

Robin | And one of his pictures was him pushing a wheelbarrow full of I didn't know what it looked like, something that had grown in the ground. I couldn't I couldn't discern. And so my opening line to him, because we had liked each other, we starred each other. And I said, Wow, that's an impressive wheelbarrow full of what is that? What is that garlic that was harvested or onions? And that was it. I asked a question, right? And he messaged back and said, Oh, thanks so much. Yeah, it's garlic from my friend's garden. And we started a conversation. So that's how that unfolded. But that's how it started.

Logan | That's so sweet. I love it. You perfectly follow that formula.

Robin | Yeah. So okay. Once you've met in now you're going to be meeting in real life. And something that you Oh, first of all, I just wanted to say something about messaging people back and forth. Because this goes on a lot in online dating doesn't it?

Logan | Yeah.

Robin | It's like you're stuck on the app. And like, Hinge says, the point is to get off the app and in person. Yeah. So what do you suggest people do when they're just messaging back and forth? And how do you get off the app?

Logan | Yeah, I call this pen palling, which is basically it's like your relationship on the app is just messaging, it doesn't even seem like you're headed towards something. And not only is that frustrating, but I think it also makes it less likely that you will like each other when you meet up. And that's because of something that I call the Monet effect. So the Monet effect is this idea that when we don't know information about somebody, our brain actually fills in the gap to make them seem more positive. And so let's say you and I are messaging on the app, and we keep messaging, I keep building you up in my mind, and I create this fantasy. So even if we end up meeting five weeks later, and you're great, you're not the exact fantasy in my head that I created. And now I'm disappointed. But if we matched and then met up five days later, you're just somebody that I matched who I'm interested in meeting, and I'm not comparing you to this ideal version in my head. So actually, pen palling can be really hard, because it does perpetuate that idea of the fantasy. So one of my tips is just in general to try to move off the app and either to texting or video date, or real date as soon as possible a real in person date. And so something you can do is let's say the person's texting you something you say, wait, wait, wait, I want to hear that story in person. What are you doing on Thursday? And so I like to suggest a specific date a specific time and then the person can respond if you just say, When are you free? You'll go back and forth a million times. And there might be people that blow you off and don't seem that interested in meeting up in person. And then I think it's probably time to call it because that might just be someone who's bored and looking to be entertained, or isn't that intentional about meeting someone. And so, if you've asked several times to meet up and the person just doesn't seem that interested, they might be looking for a pen pal.

Robin | Yep. I love that. Don't waste your time. And I also really, I like the idea of being very specific. Like you just said, why don't we meet on Thursday? 10 o'clock for coffee Central Park, you got the time, the place. Make it easy for that person don't they could say that doesn't work for me. How about 12pm On Saturday, same place, same right. And it's just like okay, you've got got a place making it go.

Logan | Yeah.

Robin | Like you're trying to move this, move this machine forward so that you're not totally in limbo messaging forever. I love, I love that idea.

Logan | Exactly.

Robin | Okay. So for people that are not, you tell a story about a client that is not into online dating, or maybe just didn't work. And it doesn't matter like you. Even if you are online dating and you want to find a partner, you're still looking for opportunities to meet somebody in real life. So you've created the event decision matrix. This is, I love this. This is fantastic logan.

Logan | Thank you so much.

Robin | So can you explain how the matrix works? This is good because you want to figure out which events to go to.

Logan | Absolutely, sometimes people say to me, Oh, I don't want to use the apps. And it might be that they think it's unromantic. It might be that they haven't had success with it, maybe they're burned out. And so my general advice is, you don't have to choose either meeting people in real life or the apps, I generally think you should be on both, you should be doing both. And that having the identity of a data or having some, the identity of somebody that's looking for love is going to help you in all realms. And so you don't have to choose one or the other. For people who want the chance to meet more people in real life, I came up with the event decision matrix. And basically, it's a way of saying, Alright, there's a lot of events out there, which one should you prioritize, you don't want to get burned out. And so for any possible event, you chart it against two things, what is the likelihood that people will interact at this event, and what is the likelihood that I'll enjoy the event. And so you want to go to events that have a high likelihood that people interact and a high likelihood that you'll enjoy it. So for example, if you love horror movies, and you go to a horror movie marathon, okay, you're going to enjoy that. But people don't really talk at the movies. So whereas something like you know, a bike workshop, where people are learning how to work on bikes together, that's very interactive. But if you don't care about bikes, and that's not good for you. So when you find something that really has those two things, those are the events that you should prioritize, and I've had clients who did not have success on dating apps, were not having success being set up by people. And then when they went to these events, where it really helped them shine, and they could talk about their love of books, or you know, give a presentation on chemistry or you know, do something really artistic, all of a sudden, they were shining, because they loved what they were doing. And they had this chance to interact. And so sometimes that can break people out of a rut.

Robin | Mhmm. Choosing the events where there's a high probability that you're going to meet somebody is very important. And also you're going to enjoy it. So that'll be a, it's a win win for everybody.

Logan | Yeah, and part of the thing you'll enjoy is a brings out a good side of you and me even if you don't meet anyone, then at least you'll feel like oh, you know, I still had a good time.

Robin | It wasn't a waste of time. Absolutely.

Logan | It wasn't a waste of time. Yeah.

Robin | Okay. So this is a question we have, that you talk about in the book as well, if a person is like, you've got this concept of life partner, not the prom date. And there's a time when it's time to make the shift, right? So if a person has a life plan that includes them having children at a certain age, let's say by 35, when should they be getting serious about ditching the prom dates and dating a potential life partner?

Logan | Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think, in general, people want rules. And some of this stuff is very nuanced. But the big lesson here is that many of us start by having crushes on someone. And you know, we talked a little bit about attachment theory. So maybe you have a crush on the person who's not nice to you, or the boy who pulls your hair, or the girl who ignores you. And look, that person could make a perfectly fine prom date. A prom date is someone who is attractive, you want to dance the night away with them, maybe you want to go home with them at the end of the night, right? That's a very fun prom date. But too many people make the mistake of continuing to go after the prom date, long after the prom is over. So I want them to make this mental shift towards the life partner. And the life partner is someone who hopefully is securely attached, who's reliable, who's kind who's loyal. And the issue is that people wait way too long to make that change. And by the time they make that change, maybe it is harder to find a partner or to have kids and so I don't have an exact number that I feel married to. But I would say if you are somebody who wants a long term relationship and possibly kids, it's time to make that switch from the prom date to the life partner as soon as possible.

Robin | Yeah. And something you talked about in the book Logan, which hit home really close to me too, is about women who want to have children. Right. And, you know, something that you talked about is like when you were in your 30s. Right, you and your, you decided to freeze your eggs. That's something you've shared very openly about.

Logan | Yeah.

Robin | Which is, a lot of women don't realize, right. It's like your time is limited. I didn't realize that trying to have a third child when I was 40/41. It's like how do women not, we don't know, I didn't know this right. I'm thinking I'm a smart person how did I not know? That, you know, I had two children prior to this. So it's not like I was this was a third pregnancy that was kind of unplanned but then planned. But I think this is important information for people to know. Right? So you can't it's not about what you can't you want to get serious about what is what in your life matters to you most? And if it is having children having a family, then then you do you want to apply these strategies and do it in a smarter way.

Logan | Totally Yeah, I thought a lot about that little gray box in the book, because I, of course, you know, see myself as a feminist and want to think that men and women are equal, and men and women are equal. But there are just differences in biology when it comes to fertility and pregnancy. And so I was privileged enough to have a partner who got egg freezing and embryo freezing benefits as part of his job. And so I was like, I'm not going to turn down that very expensive benefit. And so we did it. And I feel really lucky to have those. But for most people, the price of egg freezing right now isn't affordable. And I hope that number goes down.

Robin | No, it's a very complicated process. Yeah.

Logan | Right. And so you know, it's complicated, and it's expensive, and this and that. But the point is that, if you are someone who feels like it's really important to you to be able to, you know, get pregnant and give birth to your kids and this and that, then you do want to think about your timeline. And yes, it would be great if women could also have kids in their 70s the way that you know, male celebrities have kids in their 70s. But that's just not the case. And so just really thinking about the fact that sometimes things are unfair, but true. And knowing that how should you take yourself seriously earlier? And what does it mean to make that shift from the prom date to the life partner a little bit earlier?

Robin | Yes, that was that's really solid, important. Important advice, really. So you talk about this concept of relationshipping versus relationshopping. Can you tell us the difference between that we should you say we should be looking for someone based on how they make us feel? Not shopping for them like a purchase? I love that.

Logan | Yeah. So relationshipping is a term that researchers use, that basically means the process of getting into a partnership. But what's come up in more recent years as a term in this space is relationshopping. And that's looking for a partner as if you were looking for a purchase. And so there's really great research from Dan Araceli and Mike Norton, that says, there's these two different kinds of things. There's something called searchable goods, and something called experiential goods. So a searchable good would be something like you are looking for a new Bluetooth headset, you want to know you know, your Bluetooth, you want to know how heavy it is, you want to know how expensive it is, you want to know how long the battery life is, etc, you can search for this, compare the different dimensions of it and choose the best one for you. That would be true for everyone. Then there's something called experiential goods. And those are things that you and I might have completely different experiences of. So it might be that I see this movie and I love it, you see the movie, you hate it, I think this wine is delicious, you think it's too sweet. And so experiential goods are not cannot be broken down into their parts, you have to experience them to see if you like them. And so the point is that humans are experiential goods, you have to go out with someone to see, do I like the way they make me feel? Do I like the sound of their voice? Am I attracted to them, but when we think about them as products that we can purchase, and we try to break them down into these parts, we're actually missing out on the bigger picture. And so the point is that we should be relationshipping not relationshopping.

And I think it's when you are, especially with online dating, Your book goes into so much about instead of swiping, you know, you're looking for that it's the physical characteristics, and no, that's not it. Okay. Let's look at this bigger picture here. And read the profile and get the nuance here. Okay, and get get on the phone with that person. How was that conversation going? Okay, actually, I'm curious, I would like to meet this person in person. So just opening your mind. And being more curious, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. And just understanding that, you know, somebody may be different from what you expected.

Robin | Absolutely. Yeah. So you've come up with... Oh, first, I did want to talk about a positive date mind shift, and you tell the story about a client you worked with who after every date, he would call or text and tell you five things you didn't like about this person? Right and give company over and over? And finally, my gosh, this is not cool. You have to I need to hear, these are all judgment. And how would you like it if I was getting calls from the these people you were dating and they were just judging literally like you're judging them? So can you tell us that story and how you, you invited him to shift to that positive mindset and how important that is? Because I think this is so common of human beings in general.

Logan | I think it's so common I mean, it can be very easy to look for the negatives it can be really easy to focus on that. There's something called the negativity bias where basically it's like, you know, over the development of human history, it was helpful to know who didn't like you, right? I think I spoke to and through this biological anthropologist Helen Fisher. And she was like, imagine you have five ex girlfriends, if one of them hates you and wants to kill you, it's important to remember which one Yeah. And so our brain does really remember the negatives. And so for this person, he was generally negative he was he was picking on people and saying all these negative things, and we had to shift that. And so there's this research on gratitude journals, that if you write a gratitude journal at night, then it trains you during the day to look for those things to be grateful for. And so I took a version of that, and I applied it to him, where, at the end of the date, he had to tell me five good things about his date. And so even if he was really trying hard, and he said, you know, she wasn't late, she used good grammar, right? Like, even if it was a stretch for him, he was training his brain to look for those good things. And so over time, he was able to move past that negative mindset.

Robin | I love that. Okay. So you talk about the important thing to this is about ditching the spark for the slow burn. People are always looking for the chemistry, the spark, right, and you're like, fuck this spark, you say this in your book, I love that you say that. The important thing to remember is the absence of the spark does not predict failure. And its presence doesn't guarantee success. How true? There are plenty of good relationships that started out with a spark and plenty of bad ones that did too. Yes. Right. Is this like, we're looking for this elusive spark? I mean, you all we all want that we all want to be attracted to our partner. And I think that is, you go into, of course, the truth that it takes a while to get to know someone to build that, that strong connection, that just like, oh, this is this person is right for me. But we're just, there's so many people are just looking for that the fireworks from the first date. And it's like, not happening sometimes. So can we talk about the three Mythbusters about chemistry?

Logan | Yeah, yeah. So I love this little catchphrase in the book it's f the spark. And I think it's really helpful for people. And I've gotten the feedback that people are like, Oh, I didn't even realize that I was doing that. But I definitely was where people felt like they were showing up to a date and if they didn't feel that instant chemistry, they were like, must not be the person for me. And so here are my three myths of The Spark. So the first one is that the spark can't grow over time. And we know that that's absolutely not true because a lot of people marry someone who they weren't initially attracted to. But they work together, they live down the hall from each other, there's something called the mere exposure effect, the more that you are around someone, often the more that you like them. And so the connection and the spark absolutely can grow over time.

Robin | Yes.

Logan | The second myth is that if you feel the spark, it must be a good thing. And this isn't true. Because it turns out a lot of the people that are very Sparky, are people who are just particularly attractive or particularly charismatic. And so you think that you're having a special connection with them. But actually, they give that feeling to many people. And they might even be narcissists who are kind of manipulating you to give you that feeling. And so sometimes that feeling of the spark, instead of being butterflies, is actually alarm bells saying stay away from this person, they're giving you mixed signals, they're not making you feel safe. And the third myth is that if you feel the spark, then the relationship has longevity. And the truth is that a lot of couples, as you mentioned, started with the spark, but the spark didn't last and so people get married because of these amazing romantic love stories, but just because you have it, in the beginning, doesn't mean it's long enough.

Robin | And you advise that of making the second date, the default. This is great advice rather than going okay, I'm gonna take I'm gonna try this first date. So many people when they're in the dating pool, dating world, they're like, Okay, I didn't feel attraction didn't get Nope, didn't like this about them that can they used the wrong fork. Probably might and probably not happening a lot. Not using there's not often two forks in a table anymore, but or like you're just picking apart the minor things about somebody just writing them off, no more second date. But you're saying make the second date the default. I think this is great advice. Can you talk about that Logan?

Logan | Yeah. I mean, as humans, I think that we tend to be biased towards people who are really extroverted or really vulnerable on the first date. And some people are just not like that. Some people it takes them time to open up. And so if you only accept the people who are super charming on the first date, you're missing out on some great potential partners. And so what if you just say, the first date it's kind of a warm up, it's kind of a rehearsal just to make sure that we at least have a few things in common and have something to talk about. And that in general, you will always go on the second date. And I've heard from so many people who DM me and email me saying, I met this guy, I thought he was boring. My mom encouraged me to go on the second date. And now we're together. And we're really happy. And so if you just understand that there are people in the world that don't immediately shine on a first date, and that those are in some ways, the best possible partners, then going on the second date allows you to find the people who other people miss.

Robin | Yeah. So we've got two community questions before we end today, Logan if you're open to answering them. Our first community question is, I have gone on three dates with a man that has a lot of amazing attributes, and would most likely be a good long term partner. However, I don't feel a spark with him. To be honest, he's not a good kisser. And it really turned me off. Should I try to get my head around this? Or am I right to think this won't work long term?

Logan | Yeah, so I have a few pieces of advice. So one is using the kissing thing as a chance to really tune in and learn how to give feedback, this is something that the kink community is really good at. So you know, there's a lot of talk about consent and knowing what you want and asking for it. And so it's probably uncomfortable for most people to say, hey, you know, Can you kiss me a little bit more gently, or, Oh, I like when you use less tongue, whatever it is, it probably feels so embarrassing, but this person likes you and wants you to like them back. And so they hopefully will feel lucky that you're giving them feedback. And so one thing specifically around the kissing is just to use it as an opportunity to stretch yourself, and to say something that might be uncomfortable in terms of whether or not to give this person a chance. So I have this exercise that I use called the post date eight, where after a date, you fill out a series of questions. And there are things like, how did I feel around this person? What side of me? Did they bring out? Did I feel energized or de energized? Did they make me laugh? And so the way that you can separate kind of the slow burn, the slow burn person who gets better over time, from somebody who you're just not interested in at all? Is do the post date eight after every date and see, is it trending upwards? Are you liking them more and more? And so it's more about? Are you liking them more over time, and that will help you understand versus if you feel pretty neutral? Or you're interested in them is waning, they might just be the wrong fit for you.

Robin | That's so good. Okay, wonderful. So the second question is, my partner and I have been together for two and a half years, he's pushing to get married, but I'm not sure. I just don't know how I'm supposed to know what the right decision is. Can you please offer any insight and advice?

Logan | Yeah, this is a hard one. I mean, deciding who to marry is such a big choice. For most of us, you know, it's just gonna be one person. And so you're really investing in so I would just say the fact that you have some ambivalence around it isn't a red flag to me, it means you're making an intentional decision. So that's totally fine. What I would say is, you can really think about do you see yourself with this person long term? Do you feel like you can make hard decisions with them? When life has its downs? Are they there for you? Are they kind? Are they loyal? Do you have the same values, just, you know, you probably love this person and enjoy being with them. But when you think about a life and all the hard moments, is this the person that you would want as your teammate, then I would think about why you are having second thoughts. Is it that you are the kind of person who's always optimizing? And so you would probably have second thoughts with anyone? Or is it that there's something really wrong that you need to address with this person? Do you need to talk about their spending habits? Do you need to talk about the fact that you feel like they're, they have unhealthy smoking habits, whatever it is. And so what is the thing that's holding you back? And then finally, I have this fun question called the wardrobe test, which is that you say to yourself, if your partner wear a piece of clothing in your closet, something that you own, what would they be? and you want to give a gut reaction. And so sometimes people say things like, my partner is my favorite pair of pants, which I wouldn't have bought for myself, but I love or they say my partner is a stretched-out sweatshirt that I would wear to the gym, but hope that nobody would see me and so you start to get a sense of how do you really feel about this person emotionally, not just intellectually, and that can give you a sense of what's going on.

Robin | That's really good. When I thought about the wardrobe question, when I read your book was one of my favorite dresses that I feel really, really good. And I was like, that's what my husband feels like to me.

Logan | That's such a good answer. I love that.

Robin | What is yours?

Logan | My husband is this pair of pajamas that I have that feel like wearing a hug and they're really cozy and I feel really cute and at home in them and yeah, it's just like me and my kind of silliest happiest self.

Robin | Oh, that's so sweet. Well, Logan at the end of your book, you talk about and actually I didn't realize it that was what hinge was working on to is what is beautiful is intentional love and intentional living. And can you just just talk about just your idea around intentional living and intentional love before we end.

Logan | Yeah, they're all related ideas, which are really, you know, I want you to feel like you're in the driver's seat of your life and the driver's seat of your dating life. And so that means going after the people who you want, having the types of conversations that are important to you, not holding back, talking about difficult things, moving in when you're both ready not just because one of your rent is up getting married after you've really talked about the future. And so just thinking about life as something where you can think step by step, is this the right move for me instead of just sliding your way into the next phase.

Robin | Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm just so glad that you were able to share this hour with us. And I loved loved your book. And you said that you're teaching a course you teach a course called date smarter. The Date Smarter Program. So Can people take that at any time? How does it work?

Logan | I'm running it a couple of times a year. The next cohort is in September, and I'm announcing it soon. And it's just so fun. It's a community of people who are like, I'm intentional. I want to go after it. I want to have fellow amazing daters. It's application only. And people have really been changing their habits and changing their lives. And it's just I love teaching it. It's really fun.

Robin | Wonderful. And I also encourage everybody, if you're dating to take the three dating tendencies, quiz.

Logan | Yay!

Robin | loganury.com/quiz. And we'll share everything in the show notes. And thank you again, Logan, you're just such a light. And I look forward to learning more from you. And I know our community is going to love spending more time with you and learning from you, too.

Logan | Yay. Robin, thank you for being so prepared. I feel like you're one of you know, you really studied my book, you really had the quotes and it's just so much fun to have a conversation with someone who's really in the work and so I really appreciate that.

Robin | Okay, we'll see you on the IG.

Logan | Yeah. Thank you.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey