Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 2 Episode #4 with Jayson Gaddis | Transcript

22.09.29

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Welcome to Let's Talk Love. I'm happy to introduce our guest, Jayson Gaddis. Jayson is a relationship teacher and student, host of The Relationship School podcast, and founder of The Relationship School. Today we're diving deep into the topic of conflict. Jayson teaches us the importance of conflict in our high-stakes relationships. He has created a dynamic, practical conflict resolution method aimed at helping us work through conflict with those we care about as quickly as possible. This is very important work. I highly recommend you read or listen to his book, Getting To Zero, and apply these conflict resolution tools in your own life. I wholeheartedly agree with Jayson's sentiment, "When you know how to work through conflict in your high stakes relationships, every other area of your life improves." I hope you enjoy our conversation. Welcome to the let's talk love podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love Ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless, of relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives. And the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through our no holds barred interviews with global experts will gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Robin Ducharme | Hi Jayson! It's so nice to have you on Let's Talk Love today. I just finished working through your book getting to zero. And yesterday, actually. And I spent all week diving into all the lessons and all the material. And it's a fantastic book. So I'm excited to talk to you about that today, Jayson. But the very first question I want to ask you, which I ask all of my guests on the podcast, is what in your life right now is giving you the most joy? And what is one of the challenges that you're facing in your life right now?

Jayson Gaddis | Yeah, most joy is my family. Married 15 years or so two kids 13 and 11. And yeah, we're just in a good space as a family. And we love each other. And we love spending time together. So high value on relationships, obviously. Yeah, Loads of joy there.

Robin Ducharme | That's really nice.

Jayson Gaddis | And yeah. And the big challenge? Well, it just kind of came today there was a challenge. I'm running a men's group, and just some miscommunication went down between me and some a couple people and it's challenging.

Robin | Yeah, yeah. Hey, this is the conflict that you're teaching about. Right, Jayson?

Jayson | Yep. I won’t be running away. Don't worry. [laughs]

Robin | Living through it, living through it. It's never easy, right? Well, it can be I guess, but I don't know. I haven't found that in my experience yet. No. So I have, I have a quote, I've got a lot of quotes that I've written down of yours because they're, there's just so many Jayson, and it's a really, really well-written book. So I'm going to start with this one. If you don't work through adversity with other people, your relationships will never reach their potential. You will never know the magic of what a strong friendship or partnership is like. You'll stay stuck and superficial or failed relationships where you don't feel emotionally safe or seen. or rob yourself of fulfillment and personal empowerment. And you might choose to blame all of that on others for the rest of your life. Well, I think that that, that says a lot right there. I think I I know, I know, people that walk through life like that, right? They're in this victim stance, and not willing to, as you say, go into the fire, which is conflict, right?

Jayson | Yeah, it's uncomfortable, you know, adversity and challenge. We're just going to have challenges with other humans, it's guaranteed. So a lot of us think that if we find the right person, we won't we'll kind of sidestep those challenges. And it's, that's never true. In my experience, it's, they're challenging too, you're challenging. We're challenging together, depending on what comes up in the course of a 10, 20, 30, 50-year marriage, or friendship. There's gonna be challenges. And the strong ones understand that there's challenges and we talk through them and we work through them.

Robin | Yeah, absolutely. So in your book, you start off telling a personal story of your past relationship life, and how you had an epiphany during a breakup in when you're breaking up with your girlfriend, in the Whole Foods parking lot. Can you share that story with us, Jayson? I thought this was like a turning point for you, and changed the trajectory of your life, right, this realization you had. So I would if you could please share that story with us.

Jayson | Yeah, for sure. So I'm, in my 20s, I was kind of a serial unavailable guy dating women who, for some reason were drawn to that. And so I had a bunch of short-term relationships. And I always, I didn't see myself as an unavailable guy, and I blamed women pretty much for every relationship issue we had. And I was doing that again. I was 29. And I was in a relationship, one of my longest relationships, ever. I think it was a year-ish. And with this woman named Andrea, I think I call her in the book. And I knew I was just doing my thing. I was like, not feeling it. I was starting to close off, I was already pretty closed off, and I was closing off even more. But we kept I kept the relationship going because I was too scared to end it. And she wouldn't end it either. So finally, I got the courage to end it and kind of had a plan and drove to the I said, meet me at the Whole Foods parking lot. We lived in separate places. And we met there and I got in her car. She was in the driver's seat. And I just in my wobbly trembley scared way began to tell her that the relationship was over and she was in tears. And she wasn't surprised. She kind of knew this conversation was coming. But I think I for the first time, I said something like, I think I'm the problem here. And I said that before as a way to look like the nice guy or the good guy to sort of save face. I didn't believe it. But this time, I believed that I said it. It kind of came out of my mouth. And I was like, wait, I think that's true. I think I think I've got some issues here. And she was like, Yeah, I think you should go to counseling. And I didn't even know what really counseling was. And I was like, Yeah, I probably need to need some help with us. And we, you know, ended that relationship. And I drove away feeling very free, not because I broke up with another woman and I got relief, but because I was on to myself. And I was realizing that I at that time was the one common denominator in all these failed relationships. I was the principal that was the same in every single one. And I was like, fuck, if that's true, then I can do something about me. I can't do something about all these women that, quote, have problems that I don't like, I can do something about myself. And that's when I, the course of my life changed. I soon after applied to graduate school to study psychology, moved from Utah to Colorado, didn't know anybody, and just kind of started my life over.

Robin | Wow, I just think that's such a beautiful story. And I love what you just said about I was onto myself. I go, Oh, the jig is up. And something about this is Oh, it's me. And I love that you felt freedom in that moment. That's powerful stuff.

Jayson | Totally. Yeah, it's it was new for me too, because I really was used to pointing the finger at everyone else.

Robin | Yeah, yeah. And you know what, when you're playing the victim, you're feeling disempowered, you're disempowered. That is the truth of it. Right?

Jayson | Yes. Yeah. Which feels so interesting, because it's kind of disguised in this self-righteousness, which feels like empowerment sometimes, but it's not.

Robin | No, it's not something out of your out of yourself is out of your control. So something some somebody? Yeah. So your book is called Getting To Zero and can you just explain to us what that means? And why did you name your book Getting To Zero?

Jayson | Yeah, I kept finding myself saying to couples and individuals look, you want to get to zero, you want to get back to a good place. And if zero is a scale from zero to 10, 10 being highly charged and triggered, like the most the worst feelings we can have, and zero is like the best we can feel. Getting to zero is like, let's get back to feeling good with each other and in ourselves. So I just, that was the title that came out. And it's a little abstract, but the subtitle how to work through conflict in your high stakes relationships says more. Yeah, so yeah, zero is just a good place. You know, we all no one wants to like, live a stressed out life where they come home, and they're at odds with their partner, and they stay up at night ruminating about the relationship. I mean, you know, we don't like that. We want to be at zero most of us if we're honest.

Robin | Yep. So you're, you say the crux of any exceptional relationship is always determined by how two people handle conflict. And I think that's, I mean, I know that's true. But how and why is conflict so difficult for most people? You know, we're just, like almost taught, don't, you're not supposed to fight or say, sorry, hurry up, make, like get this over with Yeah.

Jayson | Right. We're not taught that it could be generative and beneficial and growth for us. We're not taught that, we're taught the opposite. That is bad and you shouldn't have it and it's wrong and whatever. That's one, our biology is another one. We're wired as social mammals. And we're wired to connect and belong. And one of our worst things as social mammals is to have happen is to be an outcast from the group, or to be rejected or abandoned. We hate that. So we will do anything including betray ourselves and not speak up to maintain connection with others. So our biology is a huge factor. Yeah. And there was one more that I usually talk about anyway, that's, that's probably one of the biggest ones. And then not learning. We're not taught, of course, in school or anywhere about this stuff.

Robin | So you know, you just mentioned the biology around this, and you say, we're wired for protection and connection. So, yes, you're saying you want to protect yourself. So what you just said was, like, you in order to protect yourself in order to save the connection? Right? That's how we're wired, that's the biology.

Jayson | Well, we actually won't speak up. Yes, we'll do anything we can to maintain the relationship because none of us want to die alone or live alone, or most of us, I should say. So we will, you know, lie we'll manipulate will not say anything, we won't speak up around the hard things will continue to abandon our needs just to fit in and we do this, you know, any of us can look at our adolescence and, and we could all if we're honest, probably admit that we did some things in adolescence just to fit in. We wore the clothes, we didn't wear the clothes, we did our hair a certain way we did drugs, we just so we could have friends. This is and then on the first date or second date when people adults are dating, like, most of the time, they're like, if they really liked the person, they might do some things and not show some things. Because they want a third date or fourth date, right?

Robin | So you have a very simple and profound way of explaining what causes conflict, and you simply say it's because we feel threatened. That's really like the start of a conflict. I'm feeling threatened. Right? And you say, what causes us to feel threatened? is too much closeness. And or too much distance? When I thought about that I was like, wow.

Jayson | Yeah, it's kind of simple. And it seems true to me, right? It's like, well, let's, let's see if that's true. And if we come back to our social mammal thing, and one of our this fundamental desire to belong, and need to belong. What threatens that is someone in our space too much engulfing us invading us violating us or someone leaving us. Rejecting us, abandoning us, walking away from us. Those kinds of things trigger us the most it seems.

Robin | Yeah. Okay, so there's different ways that you explain this about our biology and how our brains work right between, okay, the front seat, operating from like, my conscious adult self and in the backseat I'm like, in my scared animal. Can we go into that, please, Jayson, the scared animal?

Jayson | Yeah, I just like to keep things simple, probably, as you know.

Robin | It is. I love the way you explain it.

Jayson | Cool, complicated brain science and interpersonal neurobiology and stuff, just trying to simplify. So the front part of our brain is our executive center, often called the prefrontal cortex, that's where we're making sense, rational sense when we can actually connect with people and empathize and understand someone's point of view. And when we get triggered and activated by other people, and we feel scared, we tend to move from the front part of our brain to the back part of our brain, which I call the back seat. So I use the analogy of a car, like the in the front seat, I'm driving the car, I've got the steering wheel, when I get triggered and activated, especially strongly, I sort of let go of the steering wheel, and I moved to the back seat. And what tends to take over this steering wheel is what I call the scared animal, the literal animal, the social mammal in us, that kind of knows just a couple of things. It knows to just survive and live and get by it, it can't think, really. And so in nanoseconds, we're activated and we say the stupid thing we make send the dumb text, we ignore someone, we just get so upset that we usually make poor choices. And this can also, by the way, we can be in our animal brain, when we're really excited and infatuated and, quote, falling in love. Also, we can make really poor choices when we're highly, highly emotional. Just like you can do that in the stock market. Right? People make really bad choices when they're scared and emotional. So it's it's important in if we want to be relationally successful, I think to understand just how you're wired, to not make it wrong, and to start to work with it in an intelligent way. And the work in conflict is to get back in the front seat as soon as possible the front part of my brain because that's where I'm going to work through these things with my partner the significant person.

Robin | Yeah. Something that I know I am not great at, and I'm learning to be better at and apply is, because I am I know about myself now, through counseling and therapy that I've got an anxious attachment style. And when I'm in conflict with my husband, it's like, I just want to fix it. Let's just get this. Let's get, let's just get to the meat of this. Okay, let's talk about it. And, and that is likely my scared animal talking. It's like, I'm emotional. I'm like, okay, like, you know, I'm just on that. I'm trying to get the repair done, like, get my point across. And, you know, let's just work it out. But that's not necessary. If I'm coming from that emotional place. I'm not coming from my adult-centered, you know, calm. I need that time. I need that space to get back into my front seat.

Jayson | Yeah, totally is more of a distancer, withdrawer type.

Robin | And that's common, right? That you have two attachment styles. That's very common, right that you would have in partnership. One is like the

Jayson | Yeah, anxious ambivalent, which is more of the person who's when, when there's a fight or there's distance or there's disharmony, the anxious ambivalent person tends to want like you want to figure it out, hey, let's get back to a good place. Let's get back to zero, let's talk about it. They get scared. And the longer it goes on, the more anxious they get. Whereas the withdrawer is more of a anxious-avoidance or insecure-avoidant, you could say, I think they're both anxious, insecure, avoidant, it's often called in attachment science. And that person under stress tends to withdraw and retreat, get quiet, and feel overwhelmed by more talking. So of course, we find ourselves with someone that's the opposite of us. And then we want them to be more like us. And that gets really challenging. And that creates conflict. So understanding our attachment, kind of, I just call it your relational blueprint, and how we're wired in where we come from and our family of origin. It's really important because then we can not make each other wrong for how our nervous system, the template of our nervous system, it's just like, it's just how it is. And it doesn't change all that much. In my experience over time, it tends to, it tends to stay pretty kind of the way it is. And so my wife and I know each other's stressors. And we also know how, what happens and so we can be more compassionate, and less irritated by what the other person does.

Robin | Yes. And we're gonna get into that, how you can start to understand your own triggers, and how to understand your partner's trigger so that you can work together, right? You're on the same team.

Jayson | Yeah, you're on the same team. Totally.

Robin | So let's go back to the original relational blueprint. So I was wondering about this, because like, my mom is like me, right? She was just like when there's something let's just we're gonna work through this. And it wasn't all butterflies and rainbows. There was a lot of arguing, a lot of fighting. And my dad was more No way. Like, I'm not going there. I'm walking out, like until you can calm down, right? So it's, I think it's very interesting that I'm finding myself kind of in that dynamic, not that I'm like yelling, yelling, screaming, that's not happening, but that, it's like, my partner has my dad's kind of way of doing it. And I'm like my mom. So I don't know if that's a common thing either, but

Jayson | Very common, very common. So if we're going to an adult partnership with two people, we can basically assume that if we both grew up in families with two caregivers, let's just assume that for a minute. Because I know a lot of us grew up with single parents. But let's assume it was two parents, we actually get to transmissions or downloads in our nervous system about how they do stress. And so your mom was a certain way and your dad was a certain way. Well, you probably then have both styles in you are both capacities. And so depending on the kind of relationship you're in, how long it lasts, how committed it is, et cetera, et cetera, it can fire those memories in the way your parents responded, and also how you responded to them. And it just, that's just the deal. And so it's very prudent and wise to work with. Gosh, this is how I'm wired. And then I educate my partner, Honey, how are you wired? Well, I grew up in a family like this. Okay, well, this is how we are. This is one of our core dynamics under stress, you avoid I seek shit, how are we going to deal with that?

Robin | Yes. So can we talk about the five most common fights?

Jayson | Yeah. The surface fights which are kind of like just everyday things, the dishes, the keys, the “you didn't pick up the kids on time.” These are often what I call surface fights, but below every surface fight usually, especially if there's charge about it. If there's just a mild irritation, it just goes away when we bring it up. That's there's like nothing to it. Yeah, but often, surface fights are is the sort of red herring that starts to sound the alarm bells is there's actually a deeper issue here. And these are the other four. So resentment fights, value difference fights, security fights, or projection fights. And those the other four so I can unpack any one of those would be like.

Robin | Well, I know we I would like to talk to you about resentments. So this, this was I, when I, when I read this, I was like, Oh my gosh, that really puts it in perspective. I was like that rings. So true, you say, another form of conflict is when I try to change you to get you to live by my values. Or when you try to change me to get me to live by your values. That's how resentments are built.

Jayson | Yeah, and this is so common in adult partnerships, of course, we get irritated by the behavior of the other person or how they are, and we want to change them. And when we start to do that, we actually start to think we can change them, they're gonna resent us. And we're already maybe resenting them because we want them to live like us, live like our values. So there can be resentment that gets created both ways. Another way I help people dissolve resentments is to use the sentence I resent Joe for not texting me back on time. And then the 100 times like he's done this all the time. He always does this kind of thing. Then it's we change the word resent to expect I expected Joe to return my texts in a timely manner. And he sort of never did. Well, I do that with people. Because when I take responsibility for the expectation, I see that I actually create I had an expectation that he live the way I live. Yes, you know, and that's, that's cool. Because then I can, something I can change. I can't change how Joe does texting. But I can change how I, my expectations I can lower them. I can not have them. I can do all kinds of things, right? I can, I'm more agile there.

Robin | Yes. And that's very important and you teach this, that you are being very clear with your expectations. I mean, it's fine. You can have expectations that people in your life, but it's like that has to be verbally spoken, that this is what I expect. I expect you to be on time I expected you. Or let's just say you're going to an event with somebody and they're the kind of person that is quite tardy all the time. Well, you could say, Okay, I really, I really would like you to be on time today, please. I expect you're going to be on time. That's it. That's a fair expectation. Right?

Jayson | Yeah. It's fair, but it's slippery territory. Because, for example, I'm like, habitually early, and my wife is more tardy. So I this was an issue early on in our relationship. And once I finally just accepted like, look, this is just how she rolls then I changed my expectations. I actually stopped expecting her to be on time. I don't need her to be on time to feel okay. And go wherever we're going. Like, it's actually good for me to be late sometimes because I'm so neurotically early.

Robin | Yes.

Jayson | You know, so we can get I think the point here is that if both partners can be agile, it's probably going to be better. A little receptive, a little flexible. Because resentments really just classically get born when we're, we want people to be like us, basically.

Robin | Yes. Yeah. And this whole thing about not you can't change another person is so like, we know this. We know that. It's fundamental when it comes to practice. Oh, gosh, it just goes out the window sometimes.

Jayson | Yeah. I mean, how many of us are especially people that are into personal growth? How many of us are trying to change our parents, you know, our siblings or some family member, during the holidays or on the family trip? It's like, well, if Uncle Joe would just do this, my mom would finally just listen to me and take an interest in my life. And it's like, well, no, that's a recipe for resentment. And kind of not really fair. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that'd be cool to have a parent like that. But that's not who they are.

Robin | Yeah, exactly. Okay, so let's talk about the cost of avoiding conflict because this book is all about really doing conflict in, you know, how to do conflict in a good way. But also, the most important thing is the repair, the reconciliation, coming back together, because you can't avoid conflict. But there are definitely people that avoid it. Absolutely. So what is the cost of avoiding conflict?

Jayson | Well, I think it's a lot of field life. Probably the biggest cost is, you know, if you're going to hold avoiding conflict is like a badge of honor. I don't do conflict. I don't fight with anyone. Yeah, and some people actually identify with that. You're probably not being that authentic. And you're not going to be that fulfilled in life, because the only way you can be fulfilled is by living according to your own values and actually being yourself not being who you think other people think you should be. So I think that's a big cost and another cost is you're not going to have great fulfilling deep, sexy relationships. Yeah, it's just not going to happen because you're withholding. Yeah, you're withholding the truth. And you're withholding part of yourself and part of your self-expression that I think should be honored and respected. And then we also know now from science, like, according to Goldman's, for example, that couples who know how to work through conflict live 10 years longer than couples who don't. So there's actually a health issue here. Our health is detrimentally impacted by our ability and willingness to work through conflict, and also the security of our relationships, we're gonna always stay stuck in insecure relationships if we don't get this figured out.

Robin | Yes. And use you talk about how you have a core inner conflict with any outer conflict, which I know that experience, right, because just for example, with my partner, and I'm the one that wants to, like, let's just get this sorted out, we need to work through this conflict. Because in the meantime, I'm like, it's in me, it's hurting my heart. I'm like thinking about it ruminating. You know, and it's absolutely an inner conflict, that's true, that's a real experience. It's like, this is not a healthy way to like, I'm feeling this is I'm agitated, I'm anxious. That can't be good for your body, your mind, your spirit, your age, your health,

Jayson | No, it's not, and I'm so glad you brought that up because that's one of the biggest costs is that gets it starts. Whenever I avoid an outer conflict, I create an inner one. Now I have two conflicts to deal with. And that I just mean that the inner conflict now is I have something truthful and honest to say to this person, yeah, and I'm just going to keep it to myself. But now I'm conflicted, because there's a part of me that wants to tell the truth, and a part of me that doesn't, that's the conflict between two parts of myself, yes, just to make that more clear with people.

Robin | And you've got to you talk about how we have to selves, our true self, which is our authentic self-expression. And you feel safe in yourself versus your strategic self. So this, this was a good, I loved this lesson about you have altered self-expression, right? And sometimes we do have to come at things from a strategic point of view from our strategic selves, like you said like you talk about this analogy of a sports team, you're on a team, you're playing the same game, and you with one of your teammates, you may not, you know, you guys are having a beef about something. I don't know if he didn't play it correctly. Or maybe you just said something really rude. You can't handle that on the field at that moment. So you have to be strategic, be on the same team until games died. And then and then you can go into the true self after the game.

Jayson | Yeah, I think I think masterful coaches of sports teams, or performance teams or dance teams, they're very good at helping people, the team, they're all different, you know, like a band. They're like an orchestra, they help them all learn how to play together well. And part of playing together well is acknowledging differences. And understanding, we're not always gonna see eye to eye and that we might have conflict. And I think probably good coaches, I don't actually have any evidence of this, but they probably help people work through challenging things.

Robin | Yep. So one of the practices that you have people do in your book is there's this picture of a V, you're in the valley, right? Yeah. And this is your victimhood. And what you're challenging us to do is move from victim to author in our lives. I mean, this is like, you know, you're no longer gonna be at the mercy. And but you know, another point I do want to make Jayson, which was a great point you made was that whenever we, whenever somebody hurts us, whenever we get hurt, we are a victim. And that's not a bad thing. It's just the reality, right? Because I think in this self-growth, self-help environment, it's like getting out of the victim. You're not the victim. Well, I mean, if you're, obviously if you're being hurt or abused by somebody, you are definitely a victim. But I'm saying if you get hurt in a conflict with somebody, you in that moment, you are the victim, and it's what we want to do is a move in the process out of that role into becoming an author.

Jayson | Yeah. Turning that V upside down to an A. Yes, totally. I love by the way, how much Robin is like a beast here reading this book. So you're so detailed. Thank you.

Robin | It was so good! I learned a lot, Jayson.

Jayson | Awesome. Yeah. And I want to underscore double-click on this thing you said about, we're all victims in any given moment, depending on when we get hurt. It's really true. Like, there's this language out there. And this is why victims feel blamed is because there can be especially in the personal growth movement, there can be this way in which is like stop acting like a victim. I'm in blah, blah, blah, get over your victomhood. And it's like, get over my victimhood? I don't think I'll ever get over my victimhood. I'm going to be a victim, when you hurt me, if you punch me in the face, I'm going to be a victim in that moment. Yes, right in, and I can't transcend that. That's just a human survival thing. And I'm going to feel like I want to fight you, I'm going to feel like I want to protect myself, I'm going to look for someone to help me that's a rescuer. You're the bad guy. That's the villain. I'm the victim. So now we're in a triangle, this is really normal. The work is to not stay a victim. And some of us are in chronic, you know, marginalized people, for example, are oppressed people are victims every day all day. 24/7. That's a different situation, I'm talking about everyday relationships, we can actually rise up and take personal responsibility, learn how to put one foot in front of the other, get lots of support, read this book, do so many things, to overcome our victimhood around that specific issue. And then we get empowered, and it feels really good. And then tomorrow, or next year, we're gonna get hurt again, and we're gonna feel like a victim again. And then here we are again. And it's like, how do we move from being a victim to an author about that situation?

Robin | That's right. Yeah. So you're it's a constant. It's, it's a dance. That's what life is. It's you're going you're constantly bouncing from victim and hopefully to authorship, and then you're going back and forth. But it's like, and you and I really liked this, how you talk about, it's a muscle and the more you practice these tools, I think the faster you can get back to the authorship. Right?

Jayson | Yeah, yeah, completely. And that's where I want to live. I don't know about you. I want to live my life there. You know, I want to be an author. I don't want to be a victim here. Because life when I'm in my victim place, it's hard for me to get out. Life is harder. I feel more depressed and anxious. I want to blame people. I don't like being there. So I'm pretty motivated to not stay there.

Robin | Yep. So you say the quickest way through any fight. What is the quickest way through any fight, Jayson? I love this quote.

Jayson | I don't remember what I wrote. But I'd say the quickest way is to take responsibility.

Robin | Yes, to own your part. That's where I went awry. That was good. Yeah, do you have to take right, you're trying to take responsibility for something you did or didn't do.

Jayson | Right? If I'm in a fight with you, Robin, and we can't get through it. And I'm just we're stuck a little bit and blame and this is very normal. And my wife and I still get caught in blame sometimes. Well, you didn't. And you should, and you if we start with you language and what the other because that's human nature, is to look at what the other person did wrong and is doing wrong. That's just normal. So we're going to do that. But as soon as possible, if we can get into I language, I raised my voice. You know what, this is going nowhere. So I'm gonna own what I did. And you let me know if that's true. I raised my voice. I was a jerk. I said that thing that hurt your feelings? What else did I do? Let's see, I blamed you. You know, I start owning this stuff. And now your nervous system is going to start settling down because you're feeling like Okay, wow, this person actually cares about me. And he cares about my feelings, and he cares about us getting back to a better place. So he's trying to actually help. It conveys a really strong message of any time you can get through this.

Robin | It really does. So the conflict repair cycle. It's simply, its connection, disconnection, which is this is all normal. Connection, disconnection, and reconnection. And that really is how and talk about zero really, that this is also the circle the cycle. So it's all about changing how we do the conflict repair cycle, right?

Jayson | Yes. And I would ask the listener here. Did you grow up in a family where when the big people hurt you that they repaired it? And a lot of listeners are gonna say no, a lot of us grew up in families that because of their limitations, they didn't have access to personal growth tools because of their values, whatever. They didn't know how whatever we didn't get a repair. We didn't get the apology. We didn't get the Hey, I messed up, Daddy, you know, hurt you. I'm so sorry. Like, a lot of us didn't get that. And so it's not, it's not natural for us. And we feel somewhat indignant, actually, in adult relationships. Like, oh, you should I finally should get that parent who's going to come in and apologize. And anyway, the conflict repair cycle is, if we can get good at this, knowing that I like to tell people look, pretend this is going to happen for the rest of your life that you will get in conflict, you will repair it, you'll get reconnected. And then a week later, a month later, you're gonna get disconnected again, and here is this roundabout you go. And that's why it's a cycle. Because it's going to come back again and again forever. So if that's true Then let's get really good at the reconnection repair process, which is, how do we make it right? How do we get to zero? How do we own our part? How do they own their part? How do we become a team so we can feel good again, feel zero again and feel like we're both relaxed and our nervous systems are connected again? This is where we really want to live our lives from. So the conflict repair cycle actually builds security and secure relationships over time. Most people don't want to repair they just want a secure relationship. Well, you got to earn that. Secure relationships are earned through this cycle.

Robin | Yes, yes, they are. And so you've got for the four re connectors. So you want to, you want to feel this way. And you want your partner to feel this way after when you're solving your conflict, emotionally safe, seen, heard, soothed, and supported. And yes, those are very, like, those are human needs. That's, you know, that's you also, you talk about that how these are basic human needs, they really are, right?

Jayson | They really are in our society. Now, we want to be in relationships, where we feel known, where we feel like the person cares about our best interests, they respect us, they look after our feelings. They support us and believe in us, and they challenge us to grow and to become who we really are. So that seems like a tall order. But and these are, by the way, adapted from Dr. Dan Siegel, his work on Attachment, that if we can feel these four S's safe, seen, soothed supported, and challenged, I added this supported and challenged part. Man, we're gonna have secure relationships, if I can give that to myself. And you if you can give that to yourself and me, we're setting ourselves up beautifully.

Robin | Yes. And I can see the opposite of why. Or I can see why if you don't have those, or even missing one or two, you're not going to feel truly connected to a partner. Because let's say, for instance, you're with somebody who is unable or unwilling to repair, you're okay, you're getting into conflicts, you hear that quite often, couples that fight and if that one partner is not coming to the table to actually do the repair work, or just like, you know, forget about it, like it's nothing or, you know, you're being stubborn, you're being, you're being crazy, or whatever you're gonna say. Like that is so incredibly hurtful, you're not going to be able to, you're not going to be able to connect on a deep heart level, if you can't express yourself, and know that you are being seen and heard. And like being able to express your true needs.

Jayson | Yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna learn to stuff that after a while, because as a kid, also a lot of us experience this. It's like, cool, I won't, I won't keep bringing who I really am and my feelings to you, because you don't want them and you won't receive me. So why would I keep trying? Yeah, and we'll just stuff it, and then we go along to get along, which is also a problem. So yeah you're right, those relationships are inherently insecure. And people, you know, sadly, stay in those relationships for a long time.

Robin | Yep. So something in your book I wanted to ask you about Jasyon is the triggers. Okay. So I wanted to tell you a personal story that I've been working with a coach. And she's helped me to identify my core vulnerabilities, and also those of my partners, right, I'm still working on figuring out more of my partners. But in myself, I was wondering about, would you say that our vulnerabilities and our triggers are the same thing because something that I learned, just going on a little bit more about, what I learned is that our vulnerabilities are something that they're not something to shy away from, they're not something to be ashamed of. It's like a turtle with a shell, right? Your shell is your like, you've protected yourself and your vulnerabilities is like, you know, the under part, it looks like the beautiful part of you. Yeah. And I didn't know that about myself. Okay. I was like, wow, I didn't realize vulnerabilities were a good thing. I thought they were like, something I have to fix. And I'm wondering, is that something that you like, is that a trigger? I was trying to figure out in my mind, okay, our triggers the same thing as vulnerabilities, because something I don't mean to take up all this time. But I'm thinking if somebody, if my partner, like pokes at my vulnerability, right? It's like, ouch, that didn't feel good. And so that would be the same thing as a trigger, right?

Jayson | Yes, but let me try to put a different spin on it. Just maybe this would be helpful in terms of how I'm seeing it right now. I liked what you said, let's use the turtle analogy that there's this underside of you that's often tender, and it feels easily hurt and sensitive. And, and just like any of us, all of us have that part of us. So that is a vulnerability. In the best of ways. It's vulnerability. Like it's the place where someone could hurt us. So if we're on the battlefield, we would want to protect even that part because we could get hurt there. We want to protect our vulnerabilities in an intimate relationship. You want to let the guard down.

Robin | Yes, yes.

Jayson | You want, you want actually a person to know, your underbelly? And how soft and sensitive and gushy you can sometimes be, and, and how tender that is for you, and really handle each other with care there.

Robin | Yes, that's well said.

Jayson | If I handle you without care, and disrespect or I make a comment, that hurts that vulnerable, vulnerable part, you're, you're, you could say your vulnerability is triggered. That's one way to look at it. Either way, I don't think it matters that much. If you're triggered, you're activated. You're in now self-protection because I wasn't sensitive to that vulnerability of yours. Like some of us have a really keen vulnerability sensitivity around criticism in partnerships, right? You might just be totally making a comment in the kitchen about dinner. And I take it as criticism, but you didn't intend it. There was no criticism and your voice. There was nothing you really did. That was like critical, but I received it as criticism, right? That's a vulnerability of mine that I should work on, probably. So that I'm not so easily triggered there. But you also know that about me, if we're in a relationship, so you would, you would be like, Oh, honey, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Cool. Makes sense. You got hurt, you know, totally not my intention. And I see that that hurt you. And I have no judgments here. I'm just appreciating you. And thanks for letting me know that hurt your feelings. You know, it's just not a big deal. But I can still care about you and empathize and, you know, repair it.

Robin | Yeah. I really like what you said about yes, you do want to stay open and, and really just be your whole, give your whole self and be your whole self with your intimate partner. And all those vulnerabilities come with you. But also knowing your own triggers and your partner's triggers so that you can be sensitive to those. That's, that's, that's really well, well said.

Jayson | Yeah, yeah. And, and it goes along, you know, goes all the way back to our history. And yeah, we should educate each other about where we come from.

Robin | Yes, yes. So you have this really good tool for listening, called LUFU. I like the acronym too because it's easy to remember. This is good. This is really good. So can you tell us about what LUFU is, and I really, this is, this was good stuff?

Jayson| Yeah, the origin story quickly is that I was listening to my wife, you know, to psychotherapists, for years, and I would get defensive and say she'd say, I don't feel understood. And I'd say yes, I do too understand you. And I went around in circles with that one for a long time. And of course, that goes nowhere. To tell someone Yeah, I do understand when they say I don't feel understood like it's that's gonna go nowhere. So I finally changed the rules for myself and said, Well, what if I set it up so that I only understand her when she says she feels understood? So then that turned in slowly to me teaching my clients and students how to listen better. And then eventually, it turned into this sort of simple acronym of LUFU listen until they feel understood, LUFU, so we call it here at the relationship school, we call it LUFUing someone. And that can get annoying. Obviously, if you're like, Honey, I need you to LUFU me. The idea is a better way to say that probably is I'd like to feel understood. Are you willing to try harder or try differently or whatever? Because so many of us think we're understanding and we're good listeners, but under stress in an intimate partnership, when the stakes are high, most of us aren't great listeners.

Robin | Yep.

Jayson | And it has eight steps. And I could go into each one. But that could take a while. But the three most powerful ones, you know, we're present, we're curious, of course. But we want to, we want what they're saying to us to make sense. Like, oh, you got mad because I raised my voice. And then I'm remembering and they grew up with a dad who had an intense voice. So of course, they're gonna get upset without it's a trigger for them. So I want to be able to say three words "that makes sense," and that your feelings make sense. And I want to do my best to empathize. It goes a long way when I can try to put myself in your shoes and go, Oh, I can see how that would feel shitty, that would feel sad, or I could see how you would feel hurt because I would be hurt too if someone if I was you and someone did that to me. So that's empathy, validation. And then we want to own what we did, like owning, like we were saying earlier is huge. It goes such a long way when I say, and I did raise my voice. So if I defend myself and say, I did not raise my voice. And you're like, Yeah, you did. i That's a waste of time to argue that I'm just going to trust my wife's opinion that I probably had a tone. It did impact her sensitive nervous system. I'm just trusting that. She's not trying to make that up to make me feel that. And so I would say, I probably did raise my voice. Yeah, I can see that I had a tone because I am a little irritated. Yes. So when I own that, again, helps her nervous system relax. So those are a few of the parts of LUFU.

Robin | Yeah, I really like that there's so much material in this book, Jason and people are just got to read it. That's it because I wanted to talk to you about there's, you know when couples have different values, right? You go into roadblocks to connection and how to establish agreements. We don't have time for all this, but people will just have to read the book. That's it. But we do have a few community questions before we close. Can you, would you like to answer those for us, please?

Jayson | Yeah, please.

Robin | Okay. So the first one is, what if you're in a high-stakes relationship with someone in your family who has proven time and time again, is not safe? You do not feel secure, seen heard or safe in that relationship? You're invested in your personal growth and responsibility. And you're not. You're the one who's consistently working to repair and reconcile during and after a conflict. This is a one-way street in many ways. My way of dealing with this now is to create a safe distance and boundaries and literally protect myself. What is your guidance on this?

Jayson | I agree with you that safe distance and boundaries with a family member like that is the best thing you can do. And letting, you know, depending on how much you want to reveal to them, you could say look, I'm in a place in my life right now where it's healthy for me and good for me to take space from you. And how some of your behavior and to talk about their behavior, not their personhood. That's another distinction that I made in the book that's important. I could do that. I don't have to do that. But if I, you know, if it's like a sibling that I'm going to see over the holidays, from time to time, and I'm gonna bump into them, I like to be explicit about where I stand. And it's okay if you don't, it's it can also be just this kind of silent thing you have in your head that like, I'm just kind of avoiding them. It's kind of brutal to be around them. They're never gonna see me or hear me. So I'm just taking care of myself. That's totally cool. But boundaries are a big one. If people are disrespecting you or treating you a certain way, it's like you get to you have agency there. And you get to say, I'm taking a break, or I'm not gonna be around this, or I'm not coming because of this.

Robin | Yeah. Yeah. So it's no person cells. So it's not all about repair and reconciliation? Right?

Jayson | No with people, right? There's just some people we all know, in our lives that are just not going to come meet us halfway. Yeah. So why would we exert that energy? It's a waste of time.

Robin | Yeah. So next question is my partner and I've been together for almost four years, we both have children from previous marriages, and are trying to come together to create a blended situation. The personalities between our children are not gelling, and creating huge conflict between not only them but my partner and myself. I feel like giving up and I think he does, too. But I've invested almost four years in this relationship and can't believe this is where I'm at. How do I know if it's time to walk away at my age? I'm in my 40s. Am I better trying to make this situation work? That's a hard one, right?

Jayson | It's a hard one. Yeah. I'm a big fan of, you know, I love family work and how families are together. And my wife and I talk a lot about this on our podcast. And the two of you need to be a united front, if you're gonna have any hope at the two, blending the family successfully, you have to blend yourselves successfully. And that has to be done daily and has to be demonstrated by both kids and both families that look, this is we're a team and we're unshakable. Even though we struggle, sometimes we still have this unshakable commitment to repair and work through, our stuff together. We model that to the young people, we live it, we have this deep commitment to each other, even though it's hard. That's the way to blend a family. Because what those kids are starting to sense most likely is that you two are not that stable, and so unconsciously, children, whatever their age 18 or eight, they're gonna start poking holes in your relationship by creating more drama, and more messes and more challenges. And I think that's, there's two ways to look at that, that that's really bad and a bummer, or that that's helping you grow. It's helping the two of you get stronger as a team, right? Because the young people in your family need you two to lead. They need leaders who are leading on the relational front, the emotional front, the boundary front, you're leading, you set the tone for the whole household and kids eventually will relax in a system that's trustworthy. Right now your system as a couple is not trustworthy. So you can work on that.

Robin | Wow. That's good. Oh, my gosh, Jayson, I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much for coming on. And I know that you teach The Relationship School and you have your podcast with I'm sorry, what is the name of your podcast, Jayson?

Jayson | The Relationship School Podcast.

Robin | Oh, the school podcast. Okay. That's wonderful. Well, I encourage everybody to read your book Getting To Zero. And I know you had talked about bringing this material into schools and I think I don't know where you're at with that. But that is it's so important that we learn this. We don't learn this in school, how to be in a relationship, or what a healthy relationship looks like. Because most of us, a lot of us aren't given that model in our families, and also how important conflict is and how to work through it. So I thank you for the important work you're doing, Jayson. You're just a pleasure to be with.

Jayson | Yeah. Thanks, Robin. Great. Yeah. Great hanging out with you. And thanks for all the amazing questions and for reading the book and sharing it.

Robin | Of course. Okay, we'll see you soon. Thanks again. Take care.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey