Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 3 Episode #10 with Connor Beaton | Transcript

22.03.23

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today I had an excellent conversation with Connor Beaton. Connor is the founder of Man Talks. An international organization focused on helping men from all over the world find purpose, healthy love, a joy filled life and fulfilling sexual connection. Today we talk about Connor’s new book Men's Work: A Practical Guide to Face Your Darkness, End Self Sabotage and Find Freedom. Connor is an excellent teacher and mentor. He says the goal of this work is to become a more empowered, self led man who can effectively impact the things that matter most to him. I've learned a lot about men through listening to Connor on Man Talks, on his podcast and by reading his book, and I hope you learn something new today too.

Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships and they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love...

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm very happy to have our guest today, Connor Beaton. Connor, thank you for joining us on Let's Talk Love.

Connor Beaton | Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Robin Ducharme | I've been following your work for a few years now, Connor. And I'm just so happy for this opportunity to talk to you today. This is, I was thinking this morning, I was like, this is the first time we've had a guest on to really just dive into the psychology of men. And like just around the whole discussion around that. And I read your book Men's Work. This is this is a really solid piece of work that you put out Connor, and I hope you're really proud of it. I learned a lot when I read it. And I'm excited to talk to you about it.

Connor Beaton | Awesome. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's it's been it's been great. I mean, it's only been out for a month now. And you know, men and women alike seem to really be loving the book and learning a lot. And I think especially the guys that go through it, because there's so much there's so many exercises that are built into it for guys to do. You know, I think not a lot of, not every man wants to go to therapy. But, you know, a lot of a lot of guys are open to reading a book as sort of like that intro. So I took a lot of the therapeutic principles and practices and put them in there. And yeah, it's it's doing well so far.

Robin Ducharme | Awesome. And both you and Vienna released your books around the same time. So it's been busy for both of you. It's funny because I was talking to, well I met with John Kim and Vanessa last last week or a few weeks ago, they said podcast shows aree the new book tours. So you must be busy doing a lot of doing a lot of shows. But So Connor, tell us about your background. I'm fascinated because you're from Alberta. I'm from Calgary myself. And where are you from in Alberta?

Connor Beaton | I'm from right outside of Edmonton a town called St. Albert.

Robin | St. Albert! Oh, wonderful. Okay.

Connor | Yeah. Yeah. And then I did some, I did some work some construction when I was like 18 to 22, I think in northern Alberta, like near Camrose. And not as far as Fort McMurray. But yeah.

Robin | I know, you said he worked in some of the not the oil sands, but you did work, do some work in the oil patch. And my family is all there's a lot of oil, oil and gas in our family. I was just fascinated to hear some of your history around that. So tell us coming from Alberta. You're living in New York now with your family and doing so much work with your company Man Talks. Tell us how you've been how you got there from from from working in Alberta in construction to where you are now doing like working with 1000s and 1000s of men and helping them do the work.

Connor | Yeah, I mean it. The condensed version is you know, I went to university. I got a music degree. It was

Robin | Yes opera! I was fascinated by that too Connor. You've got a history of opera singing that's so cool.

Connor | Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was, you know, it was a wild one paying for my music degree, doing construction, building sidewalks and stuff like that. It was certainly not what I expected in high school, but it ended up working out well. I got to travel the world and perform and you know, it really taught me a lot about life and culture and people. And when I left that, because I didn't really like the career, I had hit a bit of a rock bottom in my life and and I was fortunate enough to have a mentor in my life at that time who was in his 70s. And he was just, you know, he was very well versed in Jungian psychology and cognitive behavioral therapy and NLP and Gestalt, and Buddhism and Zen and Taoism. And so I ended up spending about two and a half years apprenticing with him. Because I've always liked this model of, you know, learning from the best learning from the masters and sort of sitting with them, and academia, nothing to knock it, I have nothing against it, it's just, that's not necessarily the format that I'm proficient with, I can sit and watch somebody, observe somebody and replicate very quickly and learn very fast. But if I have to try and assimilate that knowledge or information from a textbook, it's much more conceptual for me. So I like the direct to direct to consumer experience of learning from my mentor. And so I spent about two and a half years with him, learning about union psychology and Shadow Work and archetypes and Gestalt. And I've just continued that practice, you know, over the years, I've worked with some amazing PhDs and psychotherapists, and, and psychologists and therapists along the way, and have learned a tremendous amount. I'm not a licensed psychologist or therapist, but I actually enjoy that I actually like that in some ways, because I think, you know, there's, there's still a big stigma around men going to therapy. And, you know, it's why our tagline with Man Talks, is it's not therapy, it's training. And I liked that notion, because I think for me, as a man, I, I really liked the idea that I could train and develop myself into a better version into a more grounded, coherent self, lead man, husband, leader, you know, partner, business owner, etc. And so that that's really what got me started is I had a career change, I had a rock bottom, and a mentor in my life, thankfully, that helps to give me some guidance and direction. And that put me on this wonderful path where, you know, I spent a few years working for Apple in the in the corporate world and when I was doing that, I realized that I just had this pul to use some of the psychological tools and resources to support men that had been on a journey like myself. And so that led me to creating Man Talks probably about eight or nine years ago, I think, about nine years ago now. And it just took off, you know, sort of immediately. And it's, it's changed a lot over the years to what it is today, where, you know, I host live weekends and workshops online and groups, and there's, you know, an online forum for men that has hundreds and hundreds of guys from all over the world. So it's, yeah, it's been one heck of a ride. But I I love every minute of it. I really feel like I found a sense of passion and purpose in life. So I'm very fortunate for that.

Robin | Definitely. So can you tell us really what Man Talks is about? I know, you said it has definitely grown and changed over the years since 2014. But what is it now and what is it that you're helping men do? And through this book too Conor Men's Work. Like, what is this book about? What is it for? And how is it that you're leading? You are mentoring men. Right? And I love the fact that you know, you even in your podcast you talked so much about there's there's structure and there's practice, and I but I'm interested in like a man that would just be like, Okay, I need to do that. This is, who are these men that are coming and asking for help from you and training?

Connor | Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the men that come into our ecosystem, it's interesting, because there's a very wide range of diverse backgrounds, you know, very different lifestyles, you know, guys from all over the world. But the commonality is, we attract a lot of men who are tired of sabotaging you know, their sex life, their relationship, their finances, their health, guys that are that are really ready to get themselves on track. And men who are wanting tools and resources and sort of practical direction of how do I lead myself effectively as a man, because I think that's one of the things that for myself, you know, I wasn't leading myself in the ways that I wanted to, I was out of integrity. I was lying, I was cheating. I was I was sort of a mess. And that had a very real impact on the people around me in my life. And I didn't like that, and I don't think many men do. And I think that we live in a in a time where it's become much more socially acceptable for men to be highly domesticated and just sort of live a mediocre life. But a lot of men are just not happy in that, you know, they don't like this sort of mediocrity that they've settled into in their career, or their health or in their relationship. And so you know, the organization is really for men. And the work that I have produced through the podcasts and the book and whatnot, is really to give them challenges, tools, resources, but also a community of other men who are doing this work. Because there is this notion that we as men need to still be the Lone Ranger, and that that garbage just doesn't work. You know, I know it doesn't work, because I tried it, because I've seen hundreds of men try it. And you know, it just doesn't function. So part of what we do is provide a community for guys who are all going through this who are working towards being better fathers, better husbands, better business leaders, better entrepreneurs, men who are committed to self development. And I'll just wrap up by saying, there's a, there's an institution out of the UK, I don't remember the exact name of it. But the guy's name is Dr. John Berry. And it's an institution that does a lot of research around men and masculinity. And what they've found through their research over the last couple of decades, is that the, the number one thing that for men leads to a sense of fulfillment in their life is actually self development. When we as men are working on our skills, bettering ourselves, working on expanding our businesses, or our relationships, or whatever it is, it's very important to us, there's an intrinsic sense of fulfillment that starts to emerge out of that. So I think that's, that's how I've tried to counter this sort of isolation and loneliness epidemic that has been emerging with men. And counter, you know, a lot of the fatherlessness that a lot of men have experienced not growing up with masculine role models at home or at school or in the workplace. We it's not that we, you know, need less masculinity and culture, it's actually that we need more healthy, masculine examples and role modeling. Because we, as young boys and young men, we just as men in general, we learn through modeling, we learn through seeing what another man is doing, and then developing ourselves alongside that, and so that that type of modeling is incredibly important. So that's, that's really what the book and the work is really all about.

Robin | Yeah. Wow. It's so like, I love it. And I've, I just, I really, I've been learning so much from you, Connor, on your show, and on who you're interviewing about men, I think it's just, it's awesome. It's just, I'm so like, happy that I've been learning from you and learning more about men in general. I mean, I've, I've got two brothers. I've got my, of course, my husband and a lot of family members that, you know, it's almost like as a woman, I'm learning more about how how men think and how they behave and why. And it's just I think that's really important that we learn more about, like, there's just so much. Yeah, so we'll dive into that. So one thing I did want to ask you about which I really wanted to ask for clarity on this idea that I heard you discuss on your podcast, is the decline of men. What exactly can you can you please explain that concept to, to me and to our audience? What exactly does that mean? It's like not the population. We're not talking about, like a declining population of boys to girls or men to women. It's not that. It's something different.

Connor | Yeah, it's, you know, there's a lot of research and data that's been coming out in the last few decades talking about a number of different things. One is the sort of meteoric rise of women within our culture, which is phenomenal. But there has been this steady decline of men. And that decline, you can see in the plummeting college graduation rates, right. So something like 42% of the graduates from college this year will be men 41-42%. And the other the, the other percentage is women. Right? So you have less men than ever before graduating from college. And there's a number of substantial reasons for that. But there's this slow checking out from culture and society from men. Right. So I'll give you a couple more data points. So we can talk about this. Number one, one in four kids are going to grow up without a father in the household.

Robin | Wow, when heard that stat. I was just like, wow, it is such a high, like 25%.

Connor | Yeah. And the interesting thing is that when you drill further down into it, young girls who grow up with a single mother are largely unaffected. There's some data that shows that that might lead to a higher level of of risky sexual activity or a number of other things dropping out of school and stuff like that. But the young boys are the ones that really pay the price. So the stats arts around it are pretty wild, right? It's like 80% of high school dropouts come from fatherless homes. 90% of homeless people are coming from fatherless homes. And the majority of those high school dropouts and homeless folks are men. So young boys really are impacted by not having a father figure around, then you can see within the college institution, right, again, 42% of graduates and I have a lot of men that will, you know, counter that and say, Well, what does that matter? What about trades and these types of other things? Yes, to all of that, right, you can still make good money running your own business, working in a trade. I'm not saying that that's not a reality. But what is the reality is that 80% of women that have gone to college, don't want to date or would prefer to date a man with a college degree. So if you're a man who's wanting to, you know, have a long term committed relationship, build a family one day, and you know, there's this certain caliber of woman that you're wanting to date, the reality is, is that there's a huge subset of women that won't see you as a viable option, simply because you don't have a college degree. So that's just one piece, I think the other piece of of decline within men is isolation. You know, a lot of, I think it's something like, I think it's 18% of a recent poll that was done was 18% of men under the age of 30 can't even identify a best friend, right? Not one. And in the last, in the last few decades, we've seen the steady decline of male relationships of men having other relationships, and this steady increase of men checking out from relationships. So a couple more things. And I'll just pause here for a second. When you look at the percentage of men who aren't being sexually active, or in a relationship, it's gone up three to four times in the last decade alone, so that 27% of men under the age of 30, either haven't been sexually active in the last year or at all. And so you have this, and again, that's up from like, 13%, a decade ago. And when you look at women, women are at 13% or 14%, right now. So you can just see this increase in isolation, of disconnecting from male relationships, of disconnecting from female relationships, not dating, not being in a relationship. And you have also lastly, an increase in there are more men living at home than in a relationship under the age of 29. Right? So you have this kind of retreat from culture and society. And where a lot of these men are going is onto online forums. Right? They're just sort of living in the digital space there. And this isn't to knock them right. This isn't necessarily, quote, unquote, their fault. It's not to pass blame on anybody. There's a lot of pieces that are responsible for this, you know, we see that things like the education system, for example, right, young boys' prefrontal cortex develops later than young girls, speech centers, decision making centers, all of these things develop later. And so when you put a five year old or a six year old into education, when you put a five or six year old boy against a five or six year old girl, she will naturally be developmentally about two years ahead of him. And so that young boy, most the majority, maybe not all, but the majority of young boys are going to naturally inherently struggle. And so this is why you see grades between boys and girls throughout the lower education between grade one and grade 12. There's this huge discrepancy that is that has started to emerge, because well for another a number of reasons from a neurological and developmental standpoint. So these are some of the indicators as many more but I think that this just gives a good context for what that quote unquote decline looks like within young boys and young men.

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Robin | And so you talked about isolation, you know, how that's such a big contributor to what's going on with boys and men. And in your book, you have the one rule of men. And can you talk to us about the one rule of men Connor? And then I really wanted you to share the story about when you when you were you in your, in your phase of your life when you definitely had hit rock bottom, and you sat across from one of your best friends, and just how that conversation went. Because when I read that I was like, wow, that was a powerful story.

Connor | Yeah, well, the though, if anybody's watched Fight Club, which I encourage everybody to go do because it's sort of a commentary on on masculine culture and male culture within our modern society. And I think it's more applicable now than ever before. But in Fight Club, the first rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club. And that's a take on what I call The one rule of men, or my one rule of men is a take on the rule of fight club, which is, when you're a man who's struggling or suffering, don't talk about it, you just don't talk about it, you don't talk about what it's like to be a man going through divorce, who's lost a parent, you don't talk about what it's like to be a man who's been living in a sexless marriage for two years, unhappy in his relationship, you know, unhappy and depressed in his career, you just don't talk about that stuff. And one of the other things I've talked about in the book is this notion of isolation. It's not just socially isolating ourselves, it's actually isolating the parts of us as men that we don't want to talk about. And when we do that, the very simple reality is that isolation equals amplification. So when you isolate yourself, because you know, maybe you're feeling anxious or depressed, or, you know, you don't like your job, or you're struggling in your marriage, that isolation is going to amplify your internal experience. So rather than working through the depression, or working through the anxiety, or whatever the perceived issue is, you actually amplify that experience, because there's nowhere for it to go, you're not discussing it, you're not talking about it. And as men, we've sort of bought into this notion for decades, that has become very counterproductive, that says, There's strength in suppression, that you as a man will be more masculine, more manly and more competent, the more you're able to suppress what you're experiencing. And the result of that is, as I experienced is catastrophic, right? If that type of suppression leads to needing to numb out through drinking or drugs or, you know, copious amounts of pornography or gambling or, you know, whatever it is, reckless endangering behavior, antisocial behavior, there's, there's a byproduct to that suppression, you know, when we're suppressing our anger, or frustration, or bitterness, etc. We personally pay a price for it, but then we also need something to help us push it down. So, you know, to answer your last part, I mean, I, I did hit a rock bottom in my life. You know, I was out of integrity in a lot of ways, and was lying to people and cheating and unfaithful, and I was very much unhappy, you know, was abusing substances behind the scenes, and nobody, nobody knew. Nobody really knew what was going on in my life or within me, and and how I was struggling. And I had bought into this idea that, that was making me a strong man in some way, shape, or form by holding all that shit in. And it just sort of all collapsed, you know, relationship ended, decided to leave my career. And I didn't want to tell anybody it was going on, because I was still bought into this notion that I had to figure it out by myself. And that, that by admitting to other people, what was going on that I was somehow weak and weaker. And for a lot of us as men, that is the thing that we do not want to admit, we don't want to admit where we feel weak, where we feel powerless, where we feel helpless. And so we withhold it. And in the conversation that I write about in the book, I had a conversation with one of my buddies and told them everything that had been going on behind the scenes. And he, you know, he thanked me and he broke down and my transparency, my my courage and my willingness to be transparent with him, allowed him to just be honest back and be transparent back and he proceeded to tell me about how he had been struggling with severe depression and had tried to commit suicide a month and a half before our conversation. And, you know, it hit me that I knew everything about this guy, you know, I had a very sort of quintessential male relationship. I knew that the type of his favorite Scotch, his favorite TV show, where he liked to eat, the women he liked to date.

Robin | And you would say like this is one of your best friends.

Connor | Yeah.

Robin | But really you don't, you say that in the book. You said you don't. You were just shocked that you're like, I actually, you came to the realization that you don't really know this. You don't know each other. You're not sharing what is so so real and important. in your lives, right?

Connor | Yeah, there's there was depth missing from the relationship.

Robin | I think that this is so common.

Connor | Yeah. Which I think is what a lot of men are, are experiencing. You know, it's very common for, you know, most women to have very open and transparent relationships where they talk about the majority of things. That's not the case for most men, because we have these very competition based relationships, where we don't talk about the the intricacies and the nuances and the and the vulnerabilities, right, the dare I say the use the V word, right, the the vulnerabilities of what we're actually experiencing how we feel incompetent in the boardroom, with the bedroom, in our finances, and our health. And we just don't openly talk about those things. And so part of my mission is to be able to give men the tools and the resources and the community to talk about those things. But then to also give them the tools and the resources to develop the competencies. Because I think part of the part of the inherent reason why, you know, I get this question all the time, why don't more men go to therapy?

Robin | Yes, I love your answer to this Connor. This was my I was like, blown, I was talking to my husband about it. Tell us why. There's a really good reason why.

Connor | Well, I'm curious what your husband thought about it. But yeah, I mean, the, the big piece is, it's sort of twofold. One, it's that, you know, only 29% of psychologists are male, and it's even less, right. Even less therapists are male. And, and to the therapeutic model, for the most part is based off of the medical model, which is about talking about the symptoms, triaging and medicating. And so a lot of men go into therapy, and what happens is that that therapeutic model, because it's so female focused, it aims to have you feeling heard and understood and accepted. And those are important things. So you know, that's, that's not to say that those aren't important things. But a lot of men are sure they're needing that they need to open up and be vulnerable, and, and, you know, feel heard and understood, but they actually, in a lot of ways, are wanting to build competencies. They're wanting to develop skills, they're wanting to, they're wanting to build this internal experience of I am capable, because that capability, that competency is linked to a sense of self power, self worth, self value. And so I think a lot of the therapeutic modalities that are out there are very powerful in helping men deal with their trauma, you know, deal with childhood abuse, feel heard and understood, and help them make sense of things. But where it starts to really lack is in the ability to give men very specific direction and tools to develop competencies to actually feel more competent in their relationship in their conversations, sexually, you know, in their finances, in their relationship to their own body. And so there's this gap that a lot of men experience, and I see this all the time. I mean, I just, I run a, I'll say this last piece, I run these small eight man groups called the men self leadership program. And they're these like three months intensives, where I guide men through, and I had two of them just launch recently on on Wednesday. And in both of the groups, multiple men said the exact same thing, which is I have been to therapy. And I've been in therapy for years. And not only did I not get what I needed or wanted, but I have found more value in this one session than I got in years of therapy. And it's it's just this shift in let's talk about how to develop yourself and your competencies in life, because that's going to give you the the strength and the and the assurance that that a lot of men are looking for when it comes to I know I'm valuable. I know I have worse because in our modern culture, the way that things have been set up, for better or for worse, is that a lot of men are looking to get their value reaffirmed by women, and reassured by women that women have become the sort of card holders of men's values to say yes, you're a good man. No, you're not a good man. Yes, you're a man who has value. No, you're not a man who has value. Yes, you have worth. No you don't. And so a lot of men are chasing this value. This is the nice guy syndrome, right? A lot of men are chasing after a woman's affection, validation, because he thinks that in order to feel valuable as a man or have worth as a man, he needs to get it from her. Right so his worth his inherent value is outside of himself with versus something that's within him that he can inherently develop.

Robin | Yes.

Connor | So, thanks for coming my TED talk. [laughs]

Robin | I love it. I love it. Connor, this is just, all of it is very fascinating. And especially, the learning that I've been gaining is around just how it is, it is very different how you would approach a man versus a woman when it comes to this, like, you know, like, like, you make that point about how, you know, social media, you go on Instagram, you go on, and you see, you know, there's so many therapists that are women that have these large followings, and they are speaking to women, you know, like talking, like you said before, like the vulnerabilities like, and we want our men to be vulnerable. Well, what does that mean? And what your you make the point that, you know, a man looking at that a lot of men would just be like, that doesn't sit right with me. That's not, they already resonate with the fact that that's, that's probably not going to work for me, I'll go to the gym, or I'll do something else that is going to let out something be some some sort of therapeutic way of working through their stuff. Because the model that we have predominantly on socials, for instance, doesn't speak to men.

Connor | Yeah. Well, I so like, in the book, I write about the myth of male vulnerability, which is the this, this notion that, you know, culture and society is finally starting to talk about the challenges that men are going through, right, because that for a long time, there's been this notion that if you talk about the challenges, or the obstacles, or the issues that men have, are having or experiencing that you're somehow anti women. And I think that that's starting to collapse, right? We need to be able to talk about both, we need to be able to talk about the inherent challenges that men are facing culturally and women are facing culturally, otherwise, there's otherwise what are we doing, right? You can't just talk about one side and not the other. And maybe you need to oscillate. But anyway, the myth of male vulnerability looks at the challenges that men are facing in their relationships in culture, in all areas of their life, and projects, a more feminine or female oriented solution onto men that says, the answer to all your problems is just be more vulnerable. And men hear that and they think, well, maybe vulnerability is the solution to some of my problems, surely, right, if I'm not talking from not opening up, if I'm not admitting or being honest with people in my life, but it can't be the total solution. And so that's a part of it, right? Because we have to build these competencies. But the other part is, men know that there's a risk and opening up, period, you know, men know that there is a risk in opening up even our intimate relationships, you know, there's, most men have some form of a story of being super open and super vulnerable in a relationship with a woman and maybe talking about his past or talking about a previous heartbreak. And having that partner not be able to hear or hold what he went through, and it having negative consequences, right? Suddenly, she's not interested in him, she's not calling him back, maybe she's judging him, maybe there's, you know, a sort of criticism that he should have done something differently, or, you know, she's not attracted to him sexually anymore. Or all of a sudden, that relationship ends two weeks later, you know, so men know that there's this very real risk in being open and vulnerable, because historically, women haven't had to, women haven't even had the opportunity to see what a man's vulnerability looks like.

Robin | You talk about this in the book, Connor, right? About how that dynamic does play out. And you say that, it's like, women, maybe you can teach us about this. Women want to know that you've got this. Okay, tell me your emotional state. I want to know where you're at. How are you feeling? And we want to know that the men in our lives like they got it handled, right. Yeah. And that is that is that kind of explaining it in a nutshell.

Connor | Yeah, that's, that's pretty much it. The misconception. Like when we as men here, oh, you want to be vulnerable? A lot of guys take it and say like, Okay, you want me to just tell you everything that's going on inside of me. And so we bring our complaints about work and, you know, all the stuff that we're feeling about our parents and stuff like that, and it's unprocessed, uncontained, undealt with it's sort of like, here's this emotional mess that I am feeling and experiencing. And because a lot of men don't have other men to bring their challenges, their their hardship to, what ends up happening is that a lot of female partners end up becoming a man's emotional processing center, where he brings all of his emotional stuff to say help me deal with this. What do I do? How do I work through this? And when a woman is saying, I like to open up more, I want you to be more vulnerable. What I've noticed over the years, and this isn't the case for every woman or every relationship, but the majority of women are saying, I want you to know what you are feeling and experiencing, and to be able to communicate to me what you're feeling and experiencing, but also to communicate that you're, you've got it in some capacity, that you are resourced, and you have men to talk about it with, you are talking to a therapist or a coach or a psychologist, or that you have a specific thing that you're looking to from me, in order to support you. But I need to know that in some ways, you've got it. Because if you just bring this big stuff to me, I don't know how to contain or what to do with it. So I think those are the main pieces and, you know, for for men to know that, you know, that they can open up, they can be real, they can be transparent with their partner. But there's also such a thing as the right time, the right person, and the right amount, you know, so learning that is valuable.

Robin | So you say the first step for a man to start their healing process is to recognize the pain in their life, specifically, whether they have been a recipient of pain or caused others pain. And then you go into shadow work, which you have a lot experience and mentorship with and how important that is. We can't go through the whole book today. Obviously, Connor, but I just wanted to go into that and how you, you know, obviously you, you say men had been taught, you know, traditional ways to deal with pain, like suck up, stuff it down, drink. Right? Rinse and repeat.

Connor | Numb it out, don't talk about like some of the stuff that we've been talking about. And, you know, a gentlemen that I had on my podcast, I think I wrote this in the book, like Francis Weller said that your your pain has its own intelligence. And so we as men need to understand and get close to our pain to understand it, without judgment without villainizing it, without becoming a victim, without shaming ourselves, learning that art. Because otherwise, that pain is going to become the intelligence that is convincing us to act out of integrity, you know, to sabotage our relationships to sabotage our sex life, to sabotage our health and our finances, that pain, left unattended, will divert your life or shift your life in ways that you don't want it to go. And so you best understand it. And you can see this in every, you know, Joseph Campbell talks about the hero's journey, and every myth and mythology, you know, whether it's whether it's Greek or otherwise, you see the sort of metaphorical facing and journey that a man must go on to understand his own pain, whether that's the pain of feeling neglected as a child or bullied, or like you could never live up to the the incredible man that your father was, every man carries a certain type of pain. And he can either do the work to, to move towards it and understand it, or it will work on him in his life, trying to get him to pay attention. And so we as men need to choose which path we're going to walk, and we can avoid it for long enough, but it will show up. And it might not show up in the ways that we want. So we best turn towards it. You know, it's like pay attention to the oncoming train, rather than pretending like it's not barreling down towards you.

Robin | Yeah. And I really appreciate that you share a lot of stories of men that you've worked with. And there was a theme that I recognize there was so many men that didn't know what, they're like, I had a great childhood. Things are good. My parents are still married. Oh, yeah, really? And then you're digging more into it? Well, how did your dad treat your mom? Don't really want to talk about that. Well, how did your dad treat you and he and this person this man is thinking it was a normal childhood, it was good. My parents are still married, or you know, or no, his dad did pass away, the one gentleman that I'm speaking of, but turns out he's and he tried to figure out why he's living in the basement. And why it's just like, How did I get myself into this predicament? When I had a, you know, it's not about my childhood. It's not about my pain. Is that common? Connor that you're seeing? It's almost like it is this maybe it's this, this perception that you know, there wasn't I wasn't, you know, physically slappd. But then again, this man talks about how he was duct taped to a chair. That is so abusive, right, but he's thinking that that's just normal, maybe for boys to be treated like that, because you gotta man up or.

Connor | Yeah, I mean, I think it very much depends on the culture that you've grown up in. But yeah, I mean, I I over the years over the last, you know, 8, 9, 10 years of doing this work, have encountered a lot of men where, you know, there is this notion that there's something to it to admit weakness or to admit that something happened or, or transpired in a way that we didn't like, or that wasn't good, or that was harmful to us, is to somehow admit that you're broken or weak as a man. And that's very counter. I mean, if you study things like the art of war, if you study war game tactics, one of the most prominent rules that you need, it's one of the most primary rules in any in any war games and in any war tactics is to fundamentally understand your own weaknesses. But in our, in our male and masculine culture, we've thrown it out the window entirely. So what a lot of men will do is I don't want to admit where I feel weak. I don't want to admit my insecurities. I don't want to I don't want to admit where I'm struggling.

Robin | And that's what they need to do, right?

Connor | Right and so we become blinded to that in the effort of creating the illusion of strength, where if you look at somebody like even David Goggins, or Jocko Willicks, I mean, these guys are Navy SEALs, former Navy SEALs, they've done some incredible things. They openly talk about their weaknesses, some of them are physical, some of them are mental. Some of them are their past, you know, I mean, David Goggins has talked about the abuse that he faced in his childhood, he talked about being 300 pounds. And so these types of things are things that we have to admit, right, Carl Jung, who created the notion of shadow work, which is a lot of my work is is founded on says that the first step in any therapeutic process or spiritual process, is confession. It's the admission of what's actually happening, right, it's why it's the first step in AA, you have to admit that you have a problem. So that's the first step that we as men need to take is admitting where we're struggling, even if it's just to ourselves, even if it's just to a friend, a close friend to say, you know, what, I've been talking as if my marriage has been phenomenal, but we actually haven't had sex in a year, you know, or I've been talking like, my business is doing great. But I have two months of runway before, you know, whatever, I have to lay off 50 employees, and you know, BK at right file for bankruptcy. So it's just this first step of admission, and for a lot of men, that is the biggest hurdle, it is the biggest hurdle that every single, I faced it, I still face it to this day, you know, even being in this in this work, constantly having my own powerful men's group of, you know, eight other guys that I meet with on a weekly basis, who I respect and admire who challenged me and push me and love me and support me, it's still the hard part to say. I don't want to admit this, but here's why I'm struggling. You know, it's the jumping off the diving board, you know, taking the leap. And, and, you know, I think if, if anything, I always try and approach every conversation that I that I do, all the work that I do, is geared towards helping a man, in some ways, take that first step to just admit that there is something unsavory that's not working in your life currently, so that you can begin to address it. And if you can do that, then there's room for change. But if you can't admit that there's something that you're struggling with, whether that's in your business, or your relationship, or your health or your mindset, whatever it is, there's just not going to change. Right, change is not possible without confrontation. Period, just not possible without confrontation. And for the majority of us, the threshold of that confrontation is admitting, it's confessing.

Robin | Yeah. Awesome. So let's talk about relationships.

Connor | Okay. Let's do it.

Robin | And you talk about how, you say women are a mirror reflecting what you are unaware of about yourself as a man. Woah.

Connor | Yeah.

Robin | Well, like before we get into this more in depth what I was thinking about when I was talking when we were preparing for this podcast, Connor and I was talking to one of my best friends who, I work with her as well. And we were talking about this about relationships now and how we know women, we've had a lot, girls, we grow up talking, like we have, we have this experience of talking about our feelings talking amongst each other. And this is such a gift for us, right? In the fact that we are community builders naturally and it's like, it's like so almost ingrained to like, talk about our feelings and what's going on in our lives and, and like we share every little little detail whether, men like it or not, it's like oh, no, the girls are talking now. Right? And so it's almost like we've had so much practice in this. And, and then, you know, we're reading the books, we're, you know, I do this for a living every week, I'm, you know, working and reading books and going to therapy myself and talking to therapists. So I feel like I have a really good base knowledge skills to work through my stuff, right. And I want a man that's on the same level. And I imagine this is, these are the men that you're being surrounded by Connor are people that men that want to level up, they're like, uh oh, like, the women aren't happy about where I'm at, like, I really need to level up my awareness or go into, you know, the depths of me so that I can be on that same plane of self development and growth.

Connor | Yeah, yes. 100%. What was the initial question? I feel like I lost it.

Robin | This is just me talking about it before I get the question out. But then in your book, you do talk about this on just like how our relationships are a mirror of where we're at?

Connor | Yes, right.

Robin | And you say in the book men are asking you, they're going into, you're saying the question isn't is she the right one for me? The question is, how can I better see if I'm being a man, I respect when I'm with her? Wow. So this goes for men that are like looking for a partner. They're like, they're looking outside themselves. They're looking for like, Okay, what does she look like? What does she like, right? But more, it's about like, can I be my true self? My best my strongest self when I'm with her? I really liked that perspective.

Connor | Yeah. So we, like men are very externally focused, right. And there's a lot of research and data within the evolutionary psychology field, and, you know, behavioral psychology and a number of different psychological fields that talks about how there's some discrepancy, between men and women, that women are more interested in people and men are more interested in things. And the discrepancy is, is, is small, but substantial. And so a lot of guys are very externally focused. So we look, when we get into a relationship, we look at our partner, and we think, how do I get things right for her? What does she need? How do I fix things for her if she's upset? How do I figure her out? If I can just figure her out then I can get things right with her. Right? So that's very externally focused, and what often gets missed out on are our morals, our ethics, our values, who we are, right? Our reactivity, our anger, our sexual desires, all of those things start to take a backseat because we can get so fixated on who is she? What does she need? What does she want? How do I get it right with her? How do I fix her problems? How do I solve things for her? How do I figure her out? And so, so much of our consciousness and our cognitive bandwidth, and our the way that we relate in an intimate way is external. And when we can begin to turn that back around and say, Okay, this conflict keeps happening with her. And rather than thinking to myself, How do I fix this? How do I stop this argument? We can turn the lens around and say, Who am I being in this conflict? Right? How am I showing up? Am I becoming reactive? Am I being petty? Right? Am I you know, character attacking? Am I shutting down and walking away and closing off the conversation? And by doing that, we begin to turn our consciousness and our energy and our efforts and our time towards the things that we can actually influence, which is us. We start to take more ownership or responsibility, we start to see who we are. And very clearly, what will start to happen is you'll, as a man, you start to move more and more towards who you want to be how you want to behave, how you want to speak, how you want to act, right? You abide by your morals, and your ethics and your standards. And when you do those things, it becomes very apparent whether or not that person is the right person. And it frees them to operate as they want to operate naturally, and you stop trying to change them, you stop trying to alter their behavior or fix them or correct them or whatever. And there's a kind of freedom that shows up in there that all of us as men crave, right? The masculine within us just desires freedom. And so in doing that, we also send a signal to our partner, that, hey, I'm moving towards my own stuff. I'm moving towards who I am and what I can control and what I can influence and what I want to focus in on. And it's in that space that we act from a sovereignty, from a sovereign place, from an individual place, and free up our partner to show us their truth talk about who you know what they're actually going through what they're experiencing. And this is what creates the foundation of, of intimacy. Right? Into me I see. Not into you, so I can try and fix you and get you to be who I want you to be. But into me, I see, what's my truth? What's my desire? Can I bring that out more fully? How might I be acting from an insecure place right now? How am I might I be sabotaging our communication by shutting down or becoming volatile and reactive? And so as we as men can turn towards our own responsibility, we will become more and more aware of what am I willing to tolerate? And what am I not willing to tolerate? Right? Is this actually in alignment? With what I want? Because I know who I am. Not, is this in alignment with what I want? Because, you know, I can't, I can need to figure out that person to figure out if it's right for me. But if I am being who I know I'm capable of being, then it will be very clear to me unequivocally, if it's the right situation. And then I'll be acting with respect and confidence, and all of the things that are appealing to our partners.

Robin | Yeah. I think that's a wrap. [laughs] That's just so great. Honestly, it really is. I'm passing your book on to all the men in my life. And are you doing an audio? Did you already do an audio yet?

Connor | It's up on Audible. Yeah.

Robin | Oh, fantastic. I didn't find it on Audible. But I mean, I love reading. You know, I love having hardcover. But I recommend everybody that's listening to the podcast, listen to your book, read your book and pass it on, man it forward, as you say. And I just thank you so much for for our time together, Connor, and I look forward to the IG and you answering our community's questions.

Connor | I'm excited.

Robin | Where else can people find you? So like you said you do these intensives with men. Ttell us about that before we go so that people can sign up for working with you one on one if that's possible.

Connor | Yeah, I mean, probably the best way is just go to mantalks.com. The book is there. The workshops, there's weekends that you can join. There's virtual groups that you can join. And then there's the podcast. And you know, I've been doing the podcast for seven years now. And I've had some cool people like Wim Hof and Gary Vaynerchuk, and just some incredible human beings. So, yeah, man.talks.com you're gonna find everything you need. And then Instagram @mantalks. You gotta you gotta follow along on the Instagram.

Robin | Yeah, yes, you have to follow along on Instagram. Well, I love your podcast and everything you're doing is just like, just so great. And I'll continue learning from you, Connor. So thank you again.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey