Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 3 Episode #3 with Paul C. Brunson | Transcript

22.02.02

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today I shared a fantastic conversation with Paul Carrick Brunson, known as The Love Doctor, and real-life Hitch. Paul is a relationship counselor, matchmaker, television host, serial entrepreneur, and author who specializes in relationship science. Paul was chosen as the World's Most Influential Matchmaker by the Matchmaking Institute. Today we talk about Paul's book. It's Complicated (But It Doesn't Have To Be): A Modern Guide to Finding and Keeping Love. What I really wanted to learn from Paul today is how with his decades of experience, he helps his single clients find lasting love. He shares the biggest challenge facing singles today, and four key principles to follow to determine who is a good match. If you're someone looking for a partnership, I am sure this conversation will help you along your journey. Enjoy

Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships and they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love...

Welcome everyone to this episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm so happy to have our guest, Paul Brunson and Paul, see Paul, you have a three, three name, you have three names in your name, Paul Carrick. Brunson. So, is this two last names? Is this your middle name? Where's Carrick from?

Paul C. Brunson | That is my middle name. There's a long story.

Robin Ducharme | Oh nice!

Paul C. Brunson | Yeah, there's a long story for the middle name. But yes.

Robin Ducharme | I really liked the fact that you have your middle name in your name because I mean, I could say Robin Helen Ducharme but I don't. I say Robin Ducharme. Maybe I should say Robin Helen Ducharme, it would honor my grandma, who I'm named after. Anyways, that's it. That's a good one. I like it.

Paul C. Brunson | Exactly.

Robin Ducharme | So Paul, I'm so happy to have you on the show today, I really have been following you since 2012. And I love your work. And I just think you're just such a genuine, genuine person with great integrity from what I know about you. And you're just so incredibly smart, and also just so relatable. So I'm so excited for this conversation.

Paul C. Brunson | Wow, that's the best. That's the best way to welcome anyone. [laughs] I will take it. Can I say I'm honored by the by the 2012. That's interesting. That's a, you know, that's, that's over 10 years ago. So that's some time.

Robin | It is. I'll tell you more about in our conversation. So Paul, today we're going to be talking obviously about love and relationships and about your book, which I so enjoyed. And I learned. I mean, every time I read a relationship book, I learn so much. And I learned a lot from your book. And I am a fellow of former matchmaker and love coach. And so you know, a lot of things you were talking about in your book, I know and I resonate with, but obviously, there's always something new to learn. And when I was researching you, and I know that you know your former life, you worked as an investment banker. Right? Is that true?

Paul | Yes.

Robin | And then you switched, you switched careers you did you did a 180, 360, whatever you call it, and you went into the love business. And I really like the story of how in the process of you know, switching careers. And if I'm wrong, you please correct me but you and your wife, Jill, hosted singles dinners, like you would invite your friends that were single together and play games and interact and matchmaker, in a way. So can you just tell us a little bit about that, and how, how you got into becoming, you know, entering the love business? And it was kind of almost like a natural. It felt it seemed to me, like from learning about you, that it seemed like a quite natural transition.

Paul | In hindsight, it definitely was. And it was, it was, you know, I believe that we're always you know, in the place that we're meant to be. And even though that place may feel uncomfortable, we have to stop, take a moment, take a breath and understand why are we there. And the key way to do that is to think about the lesson. Right? What are you learning in the moment, and what was interesting for me is that as you mentioned Robin is I was, my first part of my career was in finance and I hated it, I would think to myself, Why am I here? What's the point of all of this? But it led me to understand humanity and why we do the things that we do. And it actually gave me skills. And those skills allowed me to start a summer camp program. Or a program, a tutoring program. And it was through that tutoring program that allowed me to become a matchmaker. Right. And so you could see that I would not have become a matchmaker if it wasn't for the summer camp, if it wasn't for the tutoring, if it wasn't for, for for the finance career. But specifically to your question I had, so this was the summer of Oh, my gosh, what is this is 2008, 2005! This is the summer of 2005, roughly, my wife and I had a summer camp, where it was a tutoring program. But we and we had it up and down the East Coast of the United States. But in particular, this one was running in Washington, DC, it was focused on children who were coming from low income households, and, you know, needed help with math and science and English. And in the camp when you registered, we would ask you a series of questions. One question that turned out to be the, you know, the million dollar question was, well, how many parents live in your household, Robin? Right. And what you would see is that you'd see child, after child, after child would say, Well, I only have you know, one parent, or I only live with grandma, or I only live with Auntie. And so there was a succession of, I don't live with both of my parents. And there was very little male representation in the household. And I thought that was really interesting. And so I would talk about that often at the camp. And the counselors at the camp would say, Well, Paul, why don't you just become Hitch? You could just be Hitch and hook up all the moms and dads.

Robin | Yes. Oh, I love that.

Paul | Yeah, right. And that would be it. And so that was what seeded the idea for my wife and I just started hosting these parties that we called the brown sugar party. Now, Robin, I have to ask you do you know why we call it the brown sugar party? And these were parties at our house where we would invite singles over. Do you have any guess?

Robin | I don't know why.

Paul | Do you have any guess? The brown sugar party.

Robin | Well, the guess would be that you're inviting people of like, like black people to your parties. Are you? Does it have to do with your heritage? Like you're Jamaican. And I know in DC, there's a lot of representation. So is that something?

Paul | So this is why I asked because this is the answer that everyone gives me. But that wasn't it. It was because we were drinking alcohol that adds to it brown sugar. It was like Henessy.

Robin | Like rum.

Paul | Yeah, Rum. Any kind of brown sugar alcohol, and that actually went along with it with the party. But it's interesting because whenever I say brown sugar, everyone says oh okay, it was a black thing. And I was like, No, it was just everything. Oh, I know why. [both laugh] Yeah, so we were drinking because a lot of it had to do with questions and answers. And if you didn't get the question or answer right. You had to drink.

Robin | It was a drinking game party.

Paul | It was a drinking game party. It was. It was a good, good. But but but but the point, though, of the party was to allow for an environment for people to interact and meet outside of a club, or outside of work because you know, circa 2005/2006. The top way that we were meeting significant others wasn't yet online. It was through work, the church was still up there. Friends and family were still up there. restaurants, clubs, bars, you know, were still up there. But people were clamoring for new ways to connect and that was an environment that we thought were, it was a bit prearranged. Because we only invited. You know, it was all, it was heterosexual. So it was seven men, and seven women. But we invited you so there was a little bit of strategy, you know, to it.

Robin | Yes, I really, I just so love that.

Paul | That's what happened. That's how I started.

Robin | Well, and you were, it's such a gift that you and your wife were giving the community of giving that opportunity to meet other singles and you were setting it up. I mean, I just think it's a beautiful thing. Yeah.

Paul | It was fun. It was definitely fun.

Robin | Yeah, it sounds like it. I would love to be at a brown sugar party. That sounds great. [both laugh] So today, I really want to dive into your book. And also there's community questions that we are always asked of our experts. And so I wanted to integrate those as well. Your book, really your book is called, It's Complicated (But It Doesn't Have To Be): A Modern Day Guide to Finding and Keeping Love. And it really the finding is a big piece and keeping is a big piece. So, you know, that is, you know, we'll go through I think, you know, really you talk about the tenants of what it really is to attract, to bring in somebody that is a good match for you. And it's not just about your type, type hype and all that stuff we're gonna go through. But then really, it's like, once you meet that person, like okay, is this for real? Do you really want to get into a marriage or a long term partnership? Are you ready for that and what it entails? And then how do you keep that going? So yeah, so one of the first community questions is, what do you see as the biggest challenges single space in the dating world today? And how would you suggest people approach them? That's a big question.

Paul | Yeah, that's a big, that's a popular question. You know, so I think one thing that we have to understand, and this is around the world, so I primarily work in the UK, in the US and all throughout the Caribbean. And so I'm seeing lots of different cultures. And what's interesting is, is within every, within each one of those nations, within all the cultures within those nations, you have people talk about how hard it is, how challenging it is, to meet a significant other in this day and age, right?

Robin | Yes. There's all these reasons, right?

Paul | There's, there's so many reasons. So the list of reasons are numerous. But one of the bigger reasons that I believe we have such an issue today, is this whole Paradox of Choice. And Barry Swartz wrote a book a long, long time ago, around this around the paradox of choice, and he's the one who phrased the term less is more or you can say more is less, right. And this whole notion of analysis paralysis. So whenever we're presented with many different perceived options, and I want to underscore perceived, whenever we're presented with many perceived options, we take less satisfaction in the choice or in the option that we actually choose. So you think about the number one source of meeting a significant other today is online. Right? Without question, it's online. As a matter of fact, there's some studies that suggest that up to 80% of new spouses are the derivative is online, right? There's a lot of Prince Harry, Megan Markel commentary right now. And I think one of the biggest epiphanies lately about them was Oh, my God, they met, they technically met on Instagram, you know?

Robin | Yeah. Like, back in the day, it used to be like, one in three, right, which, which actually was a larger number. I remember that when I was matchmaking in 2014/2015. Right? It was like 33%. Now, if you're saying 80%, I'm not surprised. But wow.

Paul | Right? And by the way, that 80% number is just going higher and higher.

Robin | Oh, yes.

Paul | Yes. So here's the issue, as it connects to Swartz is that we have perceived options. So many of us think we can get on to our mobile device, and just keep swiping and swiping and swiping and have an endless choice. And therefore when we do end up making a choice, we have so little satisfaction, so little value in that choice. That right now some of the crazy, I wont even say crazy, they're startling, startling studies that I've seen, suggest that one out of every two people who are on a date that goes wrong, right, so you think that the date isn't going to last or you know, you want to get out of the date, they have already jumped back online on a dating app before they reach home. So they're already in that swipe, already in the same, you know, in the same period. So the whole point is that we have less satisfaction, the choices that we're making. This, I think is driving a lot of the issues, not all but a lot of the issues when it comes to us being able to, to to not connect and so the answer to that. The antidote to that is that you want to understand you don't have endless choices. Just because there's 50 million people on Tinder doesn't mean that you have you know, 50 million options because they're not all out there for you. So that is to intellectually understand you don't have endless choice. Secondly is to put more energy into the choices that you're actually making, right? And that energy is not only in the choice selection but also how you show up, why you show up the evaluation of the person when you show up, which hopefully we'll get into. Because I think that's also a, it feels like the evaluation or how to choose a partner wisely. Is so it's such a mystery to people, but these are some of the antidotes. But the reason was, because your question was why. And I think that it's a lot of it has to do with analysis paralysis, right? We think that there's endless choice out here.

Robin | Yep. I fully agree with you, Paul. So one of the, you know, I think this quote from your book is a great start to the getting into the deep of what makes a good match, because people are gonna be like, Okay, I mean, I'm sure you get this question all the time as a matchmaker. Okay, well, then, okay, how is this gonna work? Right? And you say, I found in my practice that if you can confirm that a partner shares your top values, has a personality that meshes with your own, which is what I really would I want to talk a lot about because people don't people miss that one. And meets your non starters. And there is a healthy level of romantic attraction. Okay, we want it's not always about just all the romantic attraction, which I think people are way too focused on. Your chance of making a successful match goes from virtually nothing. From about point 0.04% to nearly 50% chance, so 50% chance. Okay. But Paul, do you want to expand on that quote, before we go into really talking about the non starters and personality types? And what do you want to say about that? I think those that really sums it up, though, don't you think?

Paul | No, no, absolutely. And that is a great dovetail off of that last topic that we were talking about. Because I think a big challenge that so many of us have is then when we're out on these dates, and we're really trying to, you know, even like us just like, what is the date? You know, to me, it's about exploring, if there is romantic interest, or if you're already in a relationship to expand or to sustain that romantic interest, right? That's, that's to me what a date is. But unfortunately, when a lot of people go on dates, and they don't yet have that partner, they don't know how to determine if that person is the right partner, you know, especially when most dates kind of start with people just binge drinking, continuing to drink into the day. So it's like, you know, how do you assess, and so that that quote that you just pulled from the book is, I think a baseline, it's like, okay, let's identify, well, what are your values? Let's see, if there's a compliment in personality, let's see if there's any nonstarters. So these are things that directly impact your health or happiness. You know, do you have any non starters because if you do is going to directly impact my health or happiness, you know, let's make sure that there's mutual attraction here, minimal level of mutual attraction. If you have all of those things, you start from a place of strength as opposed to a place of weakness.

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Robin | Yes. And I imagine in your practice, what you're seeing with clients, which I was day in, day out, is people come in and I say okay, and you know, and maybe it was my own trap I was falling into was like what are you looking for in a mate? Right? That was my one of my first questions, of course. And it would inevitably turn into this is my type. This is my list. And I make, I've got my piece of paper, my pad of paper, my pen, and I'm writing down the list. Like we talked about in online dating. It's like this is this, this wish that you're putting on the universe for this perfect person that looks like this, that acts like this, that right? And it's all you know, for women, he you know, of course, he has to be over six feet, he has to be tall, he has to be successful, he has to be handsome. He has to be well groomed like you have this list in your book too. And the funny thing is there's like these oxymorons that are obviously present right like yes, it you say he has to take charge, lead and direct until she disagrees with his direction. A man who will pay the bills,but she has to be an independent woman. Right. So what are you talking about? And then the men are like, okay, she's hot. She's attractive. She's skinny. She's slim. But maybe she's got a little bit of a booty, whatever. She is, but she's soft and gentle, nurturing, but she also has her stuff together, and she's independent. But she also has to be a good mom. And she's like drama free. There's just like all of these things like, what do you and then you say, like, at the end of the day? Are you asking for a computer? Like, program? Like, is it a bot? What's the word you use? Bot? Or whatever?

Paul | Bot yeah.

Robin | Yeah, this is the problem with the type.

Paul | This is it.

Robin | This is really where people are at, though. And when they're going online, they've got their type, when they're, when they're putting it out there. It's so superficially focused. So we really have to steer away from that.

Paul | We do and but I guess we also have to understand that, you know, we get the type, subconsciously, that type comes to us.

Robin | Yes, absolutely true.

Paul | And it's based on the content that we've consumed across our life, you know, so the type begins, in that whole attachment theory, you know, with attachment theory. So in that attachment phase, so, when we are literally, you know, from zero to age four, roughly, when we're forming that first love with the caregiver, that's, that's where our type begins, whoever that first person is that we felt safe with, who nurtured us, that becomes the ideal person, because here this is, this is exactly the person who is supporting us. And then from there it grows, right, when I say grows, it's the type evolves. So it's about where do we live, who we're socialized around, right? The clubs and activities that we're in, the television shows that we're watching, right, as we get older organizations that were part of, organizations that were not a part of, right, all of these things, all of the content that we consume, and right now, a lot of it is Tiktok, and Instagram, and what we perceive as the ideal, so the ideals of all of these types become what we see as our go to. And so we have to understand, we just have to accept this, you know, this is why a huge part of relationships with other people begins with the relationship we have with ourselves. And you can't have a relationship with yourself without an understanding of yourself. And why it is that you think the way that you do what drives that thought, right? To actually do that exploration helps you tremendously because then you can understand how to manage and change if necessary. So I'm totally with you on the type, types tend not to be successful, they tend to be, they tend to be fences, almost, because if someone doesn't fit that type, we end up pushing them away. Whereas they could actually be a terrific match for us. And so if we understand this, that types are not good, which they're not right, types are not good, then what we need to do is understand why it is that we create these types, and it's because of the content that we consume. So, therefore, how do we change it, consume different content.

Robin | I really love that. You made an Instagram post on this. A while back and it was something around, it's so important, what we daily consume. What books are you reading? What shows are you watching? Who are you interacting with? Like, I mean, it's just, it's all like, you know, you're watching horror movies you're watching like the you know, I don't know, you're reading? I do. I do. I do read the Daily News on my on my apps every day just to see what's going on in the world. But you have to take that with a grain of salt too. But I know, I know exactly what you're saying right now. And I think, you know, going back to how our attachments are formed and where our type is formed. I mean, it's so much of this is, all of that is, well's it like for instance like little girls and boys like watching cartoons. It's like the fairy tales. And it's like, I mean, I grew up, like we all grew up on that, a lot of us did, from a very young age until I stopped watching cartoons, but all of it's the same message. The woman, the girl gets saved. It's like my prince charming. And it's like, everything has to do with finding that Prince and happily ever after. It's like there's no set. It's not that's not the way it goes.

Paul | Yeah, Robin, I mean, that's, that's a brilliant, brilliant point. Because even the prince who is the prince, the prince is always like describe the prince he's tall, dark, handsome. And actually, I mean, even to get into the racial element is like, you know, the prince is technically not dark, he has tanned features, but he's never a black prince. It's like you have all of these types that you're right, as a child, we're seeing and we buy into subconsciously.

Robin | Yeah. So how do you work with clients too? Because you know, talking about getting to know yourself first. How do you work with clients to get to know their top values just quickly, like do you go into a website, do you, because I just think, I thought about this, because I'm like, I know I've done a lot of exercises like this in my life. And if I was to say my top values right off the bat, I'd know, you know, my family, my friends, my spirituality, it's funny, but even this year, I think your values can change. Or maybe you just identify them differently. But like this year, because we've gone through a lot of hardship on our family, I'm like, joy, I cannot live without joy. It is a must. It is like, I need that in my life. It is a value that I hold so dear. And I didn't realize it until I was without it. I'm like, you know? So how do you help people nail down their values before they are looking for that match in a partner?

Paul | Yeah, it is, it can be tricky, because to your point our values evolve. And they, I even think they mutate in a way. Because, you know, joy has probably always been a value. But it's almost shapeshifted, you know, across your life. But one of the quickest ways one of the best exercises is to sit down and to identify, where do you spend your extra money, and your extra time. Now, a lot of us don't have extra money or extra time, but I'm talking about, say you don't work on Sunday. Right? So let's

Robin | Yeah what are you doing?

Paul | So last sunday you didn't work? Exactly. What are you doing with that time? Now, clearly, you could have worked all week. So you sleep in, right? It doesn't mean that you're valuing sleep, although we all should value sleep. But what I'm saying is, is that then when you wake up and you have that extra time, you have some time on your hand, you have a free afternoon. What do you do with it? Right? And if you look, and then where are you spending your money? Right? When you have a little bit extra to spend? Where are you spending it, if you look across the last several months, at that extra time, and that extra money, that is probably going to be precisely what you value? And the reason why this is to some people a shocking exercise is because we begin to see that we may value certain things that we don't profess to value, if you know what I mean, right, that we don't profess to value. So what I found a lot of the time with matchmaking is that if I were to ask, What do you value? Right out the gate, people would say religion, you know, it's all about religion, this, this, this. And then when you begin to unpack their last several months or year you realize, hold on for a second, do you truly? Is this really what you value? And so because you're not spending any time or money towards it, so you want to look at those things. And that same exercise that you apply to yourself, is how you evaluate someone else's values. Because you could ask someone until they're blue in the face, what do you value? And they will always give you what they either want you to think they value

Robin | or altruistically what they think they should value.

Paul | Exactly, exactly, is it because they're out here trying to get that job as your woman or your man, you know, but instead, that's why the evaluation period in dating is so important. And so by the time you're on that third, fourth, fifth date, you should understand it while you're on the call, like, what have they been spending their time on? What have they been spending their money on? You know, they say they value family, but they never call their parents. They never want to see their parents. They feel like they're estranged from their family. So how is it that they truly value family? You know.

Robin | Oh my gosh, I really like this, Paul. This is really good exercise. Fantastic. And this goes to I think what's really also very important, which you, which you mentioned a few times is you know, the fourth, fifth date, it's like give somebody Okay, first date, if it's a complete disaster, and you're like this person is absolutely clearly not a match. I do not want to see that person ever again. Forget it. Right. However, like, like Rachel, like Rachel Greenwald, who we both know and have learned under she, she always said like, give people three dates minimum, like just let's just start there, and then we'll go up from or not, but I really agree with that. Because it's like, the first date is just like, oh, you posted something about this. It's like you're interviewing or it's like a facade, you're meeting somebody that is probably not showing up as themselves fully.

Paul | Yeah, their representative.

Robin | Their representative, right? And by the second date, okay, maybe a little bit warmed up, by the third. So I just think you have to give somebody time and you're not going to see their values show up or get to know that about them without giving them those like more than three, four dates, five dates, wouldn't you say?

Paul | So to that point, this, this touches upon what we were talking about earlier, as far as when you said that that first question was, well, how do we, like this, it's so hard to find a partner in this day and age. And my thought was okay, to counteract analysis paralysis, you have to put more effort into the selection. Part of that is this idea of and Rachel's idea of, okay, I'm going to see this person three times, that's a totally different mindset that you have to go into that first date with, then if I'm going to see this person, maybe for just 30 seconds, then I'm going to walk out, right, the ladder, but they become more disposable, the former is, is hold on. If I'm going to go on three dates with this person, I am going to do a lot more analysis upfront. But also, I'm going to now have enough time to give my questions time to breathe. And I'm not going to feel as rushed. But I'm going to also be analytical. It's a different approach that you take. Now, let me underscore, if you go on a first date, so I buy the you should go into your first date thinking that you're going to see this person many times after. But if you go into the first date, and there is no, you feel the person is not listening to you, right, they're not listening to you. And or you feel as if there is no physical attraction from your side. No, I'm talking about zero physical attraction, then there's no need for a second date. There's no need for any anything. But if you find that they listen to you, there's a minimal level of physical attraction. You need to show up on that second date. It's very important,

Robin | Because there is this notion, I love talking to you, Paul. It's so fun. And I feel like we're like, Oh, I love matchmaking conversation. This is my wheelhouse, I love it! So what about this notion that you can build attraction? Okay, let's just say right, you're, you had a great conversation, this person super interesting. They listened to you. But like you said, there's no attraction. What about this notion that you can build attraction over time?

Paul | Yeah. So the question is, I love this question, because this has also been one of the most popular questions through the years. Right. So So I now have the research to back up all of all of my answers on this one. So if there is, let's like, cut right to the chase on physical attraction. The real question around that for most people is would you have interest in having sex with this particular person? Right. Like, ultimately, and I'm not talking about one off, I'm talking about continually

Robin | [laughs] I'll try it once and see if I like it!

Paul | Yeah, cuz you talk to you especially talk to a lot of guys. They're like, Well, yeah one time. But no, no, I'm talking about continuely right. So this is, this is one question. Now. The next is, is there zero? Or is there minimal? Because there's a difference between zero and minimal. Zero means no, I have no attraction. Minimal means, Yeah, I've seen a lot better looking guys or girls or whatever it may be. And you know, what, there's certain things about them that are, you know, that are not appealing, but minimally. Like, yeah, I can see it. Maybe. Yeah. If you could see it, maybe that is enough to get you into the game. Because what the studies then show is that attraction builds over time, as we become more intimate and I'm not talking about physically intimate, I'm talking about emotionally intimate, because there's a whole range of emotional intimacy. And the highest, the highest level of emotional intimacy is complete utter vulnerability. And in order to get to that highest level of emotional intimacy, you need to have complete utter trust. And here's my guarantee is if you have complete utter trust with someone that you could be entirely you and vulnerable with, I guarantee you if you started at minimal attraction with them, they will be super hot to you. Super hot to you, right?

Robin | Oh, yeah.

Paul | So, this is something that we have to understand that also from a pure artificial standpoint, no I shouldn't say artificial, from a pure superficial standpoint, because this is what a lot of the guys, I hear a lot of the guys a lot of the fellas but I know a lot of ladies say the same thing is oh my gosh, I'm minimally attracted to now, once they get 10-15 years older, like, ah, no no no, let me tell you, we live in a day and age where you have men and women who are 60 and 70 physically looking way superior to 30 year olds out here. I mean, we have, right now we're living in a different age, where we are much more health conscious. You know, even though we have high levels of health issues, we're just more health conscious. And we're more cosmetically aware than we were in the past. And, and you know, when I talk about cosmetics is, you know, you think about even how shirts fit people, you know, and jackets and clothing, they fit and they hug in different areas to enhance the physicality of us, right? It's a different age, it's a different age. And so from a superficial standpoint, there's no, like, we're just getting better with age, you know, in essence, but then also, the larger point is, if there's a minimal level, I guarantee you, you work on the emotional intimacy piece, it's going to take you, it's gonna take you, it's gonna take you home. It's gonna move you from, yeah kinda to oh yeah.

Robin | Yes, because I can be fully myself with that person. I can share a lot more than just this physical, it's this, this deeper openness that you can have with somebody, and that lends itself to good sex. [laughs] I mean really, no, no, it's not just, we know that it's not just like this having like sex with somebody you don't know is like, you know, often uncomfortable, like, I mean, you know, and then it's just, uh, but if you know, somebody really well and you love them, and you have that, let's just say you have that deep sense of I'm feeling really good around this person outside of the bedroom, inside, it's gonna be even better. So yeah.

Paul | Hands down.

Robin | Yeah. So let's talk about non starters, because I want to understand how you help your clients identify what those are. You said they affect your health and your happiness long term. So how do you, like and this is this is a need, right? Or is this a want? Or is this is like a deal breaker, like how do you I want to understand a difference between nonstarter, need and deal breaker? Are they the same?

Paul | Yeah, no, no. Good question. Good question. So, you know, we all have wants, to me a want is a bonus, you know.

Robin | Yes.

Paul | But a need is never a bonus. Because a need is what you require a need actually is a part of your boundary. And I always say that the higher our boundaries, the higher quality of life we have. So a need makes up, a need is like a brick in your boundary, you know, in your like that your boundary fence, that's what a need is. And so a nonstarter is exactly that. It's one of those bricks and a nonstarter is something that directly impacts health and happiness. And really what that means is it directly impedes, you know, it stops your health or happiness. So a big one, a big big one. The desire to have children. This comes up all the time. You know, someone who feels, you know, so it's typically talked about from the woman's perspective, but even I'll talk about it from my perspective. I knew since I was little that I wanted to have kids. I had a cabbage, this Cabbage Patch Kid named Raymond that I used to carry around all the time.

Robin | Awesome. I love that. I had a Cabbage Patch Kid too. That was our generation.

Paul | What was your Cabbage Patch Kids name? Do you remember?

Robin | You know, it's really funny because that I was I was that girl that had had dolls because my mom and dad bought them for me. But I had two brothers and so I played more with my brother's toys than they did with the dolls. I can't remember their names at all. I wasn't attached to them in anyway.

Paul | Oh my gosh. Robin, I was in love with little Raymond. This is how in love I was. So I got little Raymond when I was who knows, you know, maybe 11, 12. Who knows? But I kept Raymond, and I brought Raymond to college with me.

Robin | Wow. Oh my god, Paul. [laughs[

Paul | So what I moved into my dorm. I had Raymond with me. So it was one of those where everyone knew okay, this guy's like, just a little weird or really wants to have kids.

Robin | That is so cute.

Paul | Yes. So, so for me, that was a that's a non starter. We're not I mean, I'm sorry, we can't do this. If you can't, if you're not, if you're and it's not even just you being open to the conversation, it's know you've consciously thought about wanting to have children and you've said to yourself, you are interested, right? That is a boundary So that's that's one a very popular nonstarter today is are you interested in being married? Because we're we're also in a day and age where we have many nuances to coupling now. Right? Yeah, it's not just marriage, you could have hundreds, literally hundreds of variations of of coupling, you know, from polyamorous to, to, you know, other non monogamous styles to monogamous styles. You just there's lots of different. And so one question for a lot of pee. A lot of people say themselves, Well, you know, I want to be married, I want to be married. But there are many people who have no interest, no interest in marriage, that could be a non starter. Right. So nonstarters, they're bricks within your boundary fence. They are things that directly impact your health or happiness.

Robin | Yes, I really like that. I can't believe the time is going by so fast, Paul. But I do want to touch about really importantly, as well is understanding your own personality type, and how important that is, and then how you want to find somebody that has a personality type that complements yours. And really, because really, what this comes down to on the very simplest basis is you want to be with somebody that you can get along with long term. I mean, you are talking about being with this person, if you are thinking marriage and long term, or even just you want to be in a relationship with somebody you want to have. You want to enjoy their company and actually be with them. Just have a good like, I mean, you're here to enjoy life, right? I mean, life is so like, it's so difficult at times. And if you don't, if you can't be with somebody that you really want to be with, that you enjoy being with, and what's the point? So I just think there's there's not enough discussion around personality types. When it comes to finding your match. It's like, it's so like, we just talked about the beginning, it's so much about the stuff like their job or what they look like and their, their stature and all this just like what are you talking about? You have to really like that person and get along with them.

Paul | Right. Amen. Everything you say, I'm saying, I'm saying amen to. You know, I agree. As a matter of fact, via social media of the last couple months, I've been really oh my gosh, I've just been going in on this subject. Because we don't do enough analysis. And yeah, it doesn't sound it sounds kind of nerdy to say doing analysis. But no, no, but that's the case. Because if your route is a partner for life, you have to understand that that's the most important decision of your entire life.

Robin | Yes, by far.

Paul | More important than the schools you go to, more important than the jobs you choose, more important than the friends you choose. It is who is going to be your partner for life, if that's what you if that's the route that you want to go, that's your most important question. Right? So that's your most important question. That's the most important decision, you have to give it analysis, you have to give it diligence, right? You have to give it investigation with rigor, and to your question of personality. We don't give personality typically any analysis. And to me, personality is even more important than just base level communication. Because you know, if you read all the books, you know, I'm big into Are you either into it or not into it or maybe you could be anti? I don't know. I don't know. Because Robin I sense to me, you seem very one with the world. Right? So you may not be into this but are you into AI?

Robin | You know what, I am not. I don't know much about it. But you know, I know there's this there's a lot and I don't know yet but trust me, I'm getting into it because there I know there's this. There's a lot of talk about AI but please share.

Okay, alright that's fair because some people are very anti.

Robin | I'm not anti it, but I don't know much about it yet.

Paul | Okay. Well, AI is something just because, you know, my brother's an engineer and so I'm always listening to him. But long story short is his AI is very sophisticated right now. And there's something called Chat GPT which is definitely like, many people are predicting that it's going to overtake Google, you know, even in terms of its sophistication of research. But my first time using chat GPT, what I did is I went into this AI system, and I said, I want you to tell me, the 10 most popular books ever written on finding and keeping love. And then chat GPT gave me the list of the books. And then I said, I want you to summarize each one of these books. And tell me, what were the top three lessons from these top books ever written on finding and keeping love. And then, it works in seconds. So then chat GPT came back. And number one, by far, as you could probably guess, was these books talked about communication, and the importance of being, the importance of articulating an idea and having someone to receive the idea. But this is what I think has been missed in the conversation about communication is great personalities to me, it's about the ability to resolve conflict. That's really what the personality is about. Because you can say a relationship is purely about joy, which I think it's definitely about joy. But many of us could also look at a relationship and say, it's also a place of growth. And if a relationship is a place of growth, it must mean it's a place of discomfort, because you can't have growth without discomfort. And if it's a place of discomfort, that means it's a place of disagreement. And if it's a place of disagreement, that means it's going to be a place of conflict,

Robin | There's going to be conflict. It's inevitable.

Paul | So that means if it is, you need to have communication to resolve the conflict. And to me, that's what having complementary personalities is all about and that's the reason why it's so important.

Robin | That's right. And in your book, you do go through a lot about this. And I think it's not about finding somebody that's exactly like you because that is probably not gonna work. But it's, it's finding somebody that will compliment you. I think about my, I was trying to think about because you use Carl Jung's model of personality types in your book. Yes. And I'm like thinking to myself, Okay, and I have to, I really want to dive into that a little bit more to actually pinpoint. I think I'm a few. I know, my husband's definitely an analyzer. And I think I'm, I think I've definitely like a little bit of I don't know, mixed with controller and promoter, I think, yeah. But, but I think we really complement each other because he's so analytical. And I'm, like, I'm like the big picture. And he's more like, hey, let's get down to like details of figuring this out researching, I just think in that comes down to even our communication styles. But when it comes down to getting to know somebody, and meshing with them for life, and partnering with them, you have to understand their personality so that you can work with it. It's not like it, it is who he is. I am who I am. And so we have to learn each other. But anyways, it has so much to do with personality.

Paul | Yes, I'm with you.

Robin | It's a big topic.

Paul | It is.

Robin | So we are out of time. I can't believe this, Paul, but I wanted to talk, I want to talk for another hour about how you and Jill have this amazing thing called 10 lessons about marriage. And I just want to ask you to come back on our show and we can talk about that because we talked about the finding and we talked about the keeping because I think when you implement these, like these principles that we just talked about, when you're looking for a mate, this gives you a much better chance of finding, finding somebody that you can actually be with long term. Really, I mean, it's so, so important. So I think we covered that. But then next time we talk, I really want to go into the keeping love and how you do that long term, because you've been with your wife for over 21 years. Is that right?

Paul | Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's 22 years.

Robin | Wow. Yeah, that's, that's just beautiful. And yeah, just because you're such a great teacher and a great mentor and all-around great guy. So thank you so much, Paul, for being here.

Paul | I appreciate that. But, Robin, there's one question I have to ask you. You didn't give me the Rachel story.

Robin | Oh my god, I didn't give you the Rachel story. Okay. So, we are similar in the fact that we changed careers. I was I mean, I've had different careers in my life. I sold medical supplies for many, many years. Loved it. I became a realtor. And then I had my first daughter, and I took a year to be with her. And then I was like, Okay, I'm going back into work force. And I was like, I don't want to do that again. So I thought, You know what, I'm going to do something different and my twin brother, he's like, Robin, I think you should become a matchmaker. Like, who the hell thinks of that? I feel like it was out of nowhere, like out of left field. And I said, Reece, I was like, Are you crazy? Like, what are you talking about? He's like, I think you would love it. I don't you just go into it. Just look into it. So I did my research. And I found Rachel, I, you know, I'm like, I'm gonna learn from the best of the best. That's the only way to do this. If I'm going to enter a new career I better interview different people that are doing really well in this and see if this might be a good path for me. And so I did. She was at the top of my list. I interviewed actually quite a few matchmakers mostly out of the states. And Rachel said you need to come to Denver and take my matchmaking bootcamp. So I did that. And then I went to I went, went and joined the matchmaking Institute with Lisa Clampett and aways I studied and it took you know what I did, I did the whole thing. I felt like I went back to school for two years, started my own practice, as a matchmaker and love coach did that for many years before entering into this side of the love business, but it's, so we have we have Rachel in common, and I love her so much.

Paul | And Lisa.

Robin | Oh, Lisa is so great.

Paul | Yeah.

Robin | So it's a beautiful world being in this business. I really, I get to meet people like you and talk about what's really important, which is our relationships. There's nothing more important.

Paul | Nothing, nothing more important. Amen. I mean, I've been saying Amen to everything that you've said. I completely, completely agree.

Robin | I really thank you for your time, Paul, and I look forward to seeing you on the IG. And hopefully at our next summit in Vancouver next year, because I really want you to be a speaker.

Paul | Yeah, I would love to go to Canada and be there with you. That would be awesome.

Robin | Okay. Okay, great. Well, thank you again, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.

Paul | Thank you. It's been an honor.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey