Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 3 Episode #4 with Todd Baratz | Transcript

22.02.09

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today on Let's Talk love, I'm joined by Todd Baratz. Todd is a certified sex therapist, licensed individual and couples psychotherapist, podcast host and writer who specializes in sex and relationships. Todd is not interested in formalities, tradition, diagnosis or labels. In fact, he actively works against any categorical binary of the human condition. Instead, he works to humanize and empower. Today's episode I asked Todd your sex and relationship questions. Todd gives advice on infidelity, sexual compatibility, having hard conversations about STIs and jealousy in relationships. Todd's approach is real, authentic, inclusive, and very relatable. I hope you enjoy.

Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships and they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love...

Wonderful. Hello, everybody and welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today I am joined by Todd Baratz.

Todd Baratz | Hi.

Robin Ducharme | I'm so happy to have you, Todd. We had so much fun on the IG Live a while ago.

Todd Baratz | I did. We did.

Robin Ducharme | And we had so many engaging community questions for you that we couldn't even get through a quarter of them. So I'm happy that we're able to record this podcast and have you answer more of our community's questions.

Todd Baratz | Cool. Let's do it.

Robin | Because I really love your approach, Todd, to, I mean, what you. Maybe you could share. Let's start off by you sharing your philosophy. I know you're a sex therapist, you are an individual and couples counselor, and psychotherapist. And I really love your approach. So why don't you, why don't we start with that?

Todd | Sure. Well, philosophy is the word to use. Just because I like, we don't, I don't think, I don't experience my life through a psychological only defined reality. You know, I really think we all need a little bit more philosophy in our lives. So I really do take more of a reflective approach to some of the issues that are more historically been thought to be psychological. So I don't diagnose. But I do work as a clinical therapist. But a big portion of what I do is really understanding how our environment impacts us and creates context for relationships, family and structures and systems that can contribute to our overall wellness, physical and mental health or not, and the privileges that contribute to some of those experiences that we have. So that's really the baseline of my approach, is really understanding the cultural impacts that shape and define our lives rather than jumping into rules and ways to live. So instead, I approach my clients in cases, it's just curiosity. I just want to hear what's going on I want to know their story. And I want to help them understand themselves and the who, what, when where whys, but I'm not interested in labeling and I'm not interested in you know, big judgmental statements about who is good, healthy, mature, immature, narcissistic, toxic. All of that other stuff.

Robin | Too many labels.

Todd | I want to know the story.

Robin | Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're surrounded by so many, so many labels and trying to put people into boxes, ourselves included. And I know you you tried to steer away from, like, right. You know, he's right. She's wrong. Back and forth. Black and white. That's, that's just not the reality. So I just, I just love it. So I think I think the best way for people to get to know you is for us to go through the questions and just how you answer and give just such solid advice.

Todd | Sure.

Robin | I love it. So let's do it. Okay, so the first question is, how do you cope with differences you and your partner have in context of physical touches? There are plenty of things I don't enjoy, which he loves. Is this a deal breaker? Well, obviously it's not a deal breaker but would be you're just enjoying different physical ways of interacting with each other and touching each other.

Todd | Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing is, you know the question difference, how do I deal with this difference? Touch How do I deal with the difference of bedtime? How do I deal with the difference of appetite, the difference of difference? And, you know, with the touch stuff, okay, so we could say logistically, like, you know, how much of the two of you talked about the differing types of touch? What are we talking about? Are we talking about sexual touch? We're talking more sensual? Genuine affection? And can you give him more them? I don't know the genders. Can you give them the type of touch they want? And can they give you the type of touch that you want? Can you show up for each other in that way? You know, because logistically, it doesn't have to be one or the other. But I think we're talking more about is how to negotiate differences, especially differences that are involved with physical communication, for many people are tough, you know, the power of touch, whether we're talking about again, sexual, sensual, whatever affectionate for all of us, is a pretty triggering topic, specifically, in terms of intimate relationships, even with strangers, you know, when you're meeting somebody hug handshake, especially now with COVID. So touch is really meaningful story, and especially in our long term partners. One, it's likely that two partners or three partners are all going to have differing preferences for touch. So we have to understand, accept and encourage and honor those differences. But I think for most people we come from at least I know, I came from a place where being different wasn't necessarily No, it was not encouraged. You know, being gay, it was not encouraged, you know, being different, not straight. So negotiating differences with someone that, you know, the consequences can be pretty bad for me, like an intimate partner, many people shut down. So I always think about the question within a question, you know, how do I what do we do a difference in touch? Well, what is it that shuts you down in the face of difference? What is it that you lose your capacity to prompt and ask your partner or to give your partner what they want, when difference arises? For most people, it's anxiety, anxiety about rejection, shame about preference, especially if it's sexual. But even if it is about affection, you know, feeling like well, my partner says they don't want to do it. So I'm the problem, or they're the, you know, there's a problematising thing that happens. So long story short, you know, talk about talk about your differences, negotiate it, and, you know, don't overthink that. If it's affection, give each other the type of affection you want. But then think a little bit deeper on the role of difference in your overall life and, and what that brings up? Because it seems like

Robin | If it's an issue for you. It's a trigger.

Todd | Yeah.

Robin | And then it's, there's something that could be underneath that.

Todd | For sure.

Robin | That's often the case, isn't it?

Todd | And there is for everybody.

Robin | Yes. Oh, I know. This is the whole thing about relationships and why they're so freakin difficult. Because it isn't just the topical issue of I don't want to be touched that way. It could be something way deeper, like you said, about about managing the differences and how, Wow, I've never thought of it that way Todd, that's awesome.

Todd | Oh good.

Robin | So, infidelity, I reconnected with my ex recently, and we are both in much better places to start fresh with each other. The thing is weighing on me is that we reconnected when he was still with someone else. How can we make peace with the fact that we both crossed some lines we thought we'd never crossed to be with each other?

Todd | Oh, well. I mean, another highly triggering issue for people, infidelity, cheating, affairs, betrayal, abandonment, trust, honesty. I mean, so many different things come up in the face of this question. I mean, the first thing I would say, there's so many questions about do I Is it good or bad to get back together with an ex? Should I? shouldn't I? Which there's only two options.

Robin | And that is one of the questions we have after this. So we can talk about.

Todd | Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah um, and I, you know, I don't know. I think for some people, it works and for some people it doesn't. What I always tell people is, you know, you can't have the same relationship again, just you know, but you have to make sure to do something different, literally anything different. If you have access to therapy, you know, I really do think that's a must do thing. If you're in a relationship and it ends, you have to, and you want to get back together, you have to figure out what happened. So you can't just click back in, well like you could many people do, but I would discourage that. I would encourage putting in a lot of work. And in terms of the question about trust or about infidelity, it's unclear about whether or not there was infidelity in their relationship or if it was just the matter of they met each other while they were both in relationships. There's no answer. I mean, I think so many people think there's like a huge book that will say the answer what to do when but you know, like, these things are complicated. I always do this to thing where I say, well, at the surface, you know, here's the like, logistical like, do this kind of thing. But then also there's meaning behind it. So with this, I mean, to me, it seems like the person might be overthinking it, that many people get into relationships when they're in a relationship. And it has nothing to do with cheating or infidelity that this one once a cheater, always a cheater thing. It's it's not a thing. It's a stigmatized, cultural phenomenon that people believe, but it's not necessarily the case. So I don't know, I don't see this as an as a big factor. But it seems like this person might be anxious about that. So I mean, talk about it, talk about it with your partner and plan. But at the same time, you know, we can put all of this effort into our relationship and someone can cheat cheating happens. It's just something to talk about with your partner and to be open and realistic that this is something that happens in relationships.

Robin | Yeah. So in relationship, this question is, how do you talk to your partner about their bad habit and lack of prioritizing self care and health?

Todd | Yeah, you don't. [laughs] I don't know. It really depends. Everyone has bad habits. Bad defined by, I don't know who but know, if someone's not showering, and they smell, I mean, you can say, in a loving way, hey, so I love you but you stink. And you can laugh about it and call them a stinky little piggy and be cute, like, okay, and now it's time to get in the shower. But some other habits may not be the thing to get on their case about. It really depends, you kind of have to just use yourself. Whatever you think is best, and whatever you how much you know your partner in terms of what they might find offensive. But um, I don't know, I think humor plays a really big role in relationships that people often underestimate during these potentially conflictual dynamics. So you know, the tone of your voice is going to have an impact, the words you use, it will have an impact, the pre existing relationships can have an impact, you know, so it isn't just about what do I do? It's what's happening in the relationship? And who are you? And who is your partner? And do you know yourself and them enough to approach this? If it's a big deal for you, if it's not that big of a deal, and it's just, you know, one of those fucking annoying things they do, I would say, deal with it. But it depends on if someone's chewing loudly. I mean, are you going to police their chewing? I mean, I would probably say that's, that would be annoying, both to hear the chewing loudly all the time, but also to be policed while you chew. So it really depends on what it is, you know, if it's a real personal hygiene thing, and it gets in the way of sex and wanting to be close to the person, you know, say something, if they have bad breath, say something if you don't want to kiss them, you know, the alternative is...

Robin | Yes, if it's affecting your relationship and your connection then I think it's, you just have to say something. And but I like the I like the idea about, obviously, just using some humor around it. And it's it is how you approach that conversation. That does probably have to happen if it's affecting your relationship, right?

Todd | Yeah, humor is a really, I think, a huge important part of relationships, you know, that you can really disarm a lot of conflict through humor and prevent conflicts from humor versus, you know, if you say you stink, you know, that's gonna really make someone feel bad. But if you make a joke about it, and you giggle and you smile, and you laugh, and you say, let's take a shower together, and I'm going to make sure that I get you nice and clean. And then that can be not a conflict that can be a connection.

Robin | Yes.

Todd | You know, we really need to think about being gentle, and cute and funny and flirty.

Robin | How would you want to be approached?

Todd | Yeah, yeah.

Robin | So I know you are a sex therapist, and there's a lot of sex questions. So, is sexual compatibility a thing? I've never had crazy chemistry with anyone. Is it me or just the wrong matches? Can sexual compatibility grow?

Todd | All of the above. Yes. I mean, look, this is something that I you know, I as a single person dating, I'm trying to answer for myself and It really depends on the person, you know, the challenge is the opportunity to develop compatibility. Sometimes it's non existent because you can feel so much a lack of compatibility and that can make you anxious and then decrease the opportunities, you have to actually have open communications and experiment and explore, to actually try and create something compatible. But usually, what I would say to start with is to so start to try to create compatibility and see what happens. And for some people, it I do think it can, and for some people, it's just not going to be there. But you do have to get your anxiety under control about it. Otherwise, you won't be able to explore and talk about and have fun when you're trying to create some compatibility. That also depends again, on what we're talking about. Some people say we're not sexually compatible, because I don't know they're a top and a bottom, or they like it rough and I like a gentle. And so then the question becomes, okay, well, can you both come a little bit to the middle, and maybe one day you do them and the next day, you know, it's other person's turn? But so it depends, we're talking about compromise or talking about connection? There are many different layers to this. But I mean, I would say try, try to create it. I don't know, I don't know if anyone could say no, if you're not sexually compatible, it can't be created. or Yes, it can be. I mean, it's, it's a case by case, kind of a thing, but I would definitely say try. And the things that you do to try is, you know, to really give a full presentation, a PowerPoint, you know, draw a picture exactly what you want and what you like, what you want to hear, the words you want your partner to say or not say, the places that you know, really get into it. And let's see if it can unfold a little bit slower.

Robin | I think it's, you know, I think about myself, and how, when I was younger and dating, I wasn't comfortable talking about sex. And I think this is common with a lot of people in general. But this is such an important part of the relationship. If you want to have a very healthy and happy sexual life, then talk about it. And I think that's just so under it's like, it's underrated, right? Like you have to communicate like what you like and what you don't like, and, and how you how you want to be touched and, and that way you hopefully can increase the satisfaction you have with a partner. Right?

Todd | Yeah, I mean, for a lot of people, it's a lot of anxiety that makes them inhibited. And sometimes we can miss interpret inhibition as a lack of compatibility. And so, for some people, it may take them a little bit of time, before they feel uninhibited with with a new partner, before they're able to really feel comfortable and to relax into expressing the full spectrum or whatever small part of the spectrum they've felt comfortable expressing in the first place. So you know, sure, sometimes it's like mind blowing sex at the beginning, but not always. And that's not necessarily a sign of a lack of compatibility. It's a sign of many, many different things. So in the absence of knowing we have to simply try and see what works and what doesn't work. And if you try and nothing works, and you are can't sexualize the person, and you don't you're not really attracted to them, then you know, I think you can call and say we're not compatible.

Robin | Yeah. Oh, I like that. In the absence of knowing you have to try, love that.

Todd | Yeah.

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Robin | So what about this question? This is about how can you tell the difference between relationship anxiety, like anxiety you're feeling and your intuition in relation to having questions about your partner, or somebody you're dating?

Todd | Well, I mean, it's usually both. And I wouldn't dismiss either the challenge with the firstly, talk to your partner, if you're anxious about something and you think something's happening or not happening or just ask them you know, there's a quick kind of thing to do there. But the other piece here is that some times we're picking up on something, and it's making us anxious about our relationships. But the meaning we assign to it isn't necessarily accurate. So our partner could be busy or depressed or stressed out about work or feeling like a failure or whatever, and somewhat withdrawn. And we could understand that as you know, they're disinterested in me, the things aren't going well, they won't even talk to me, me, me, me, you know, through this kind of narcissistic lens of, you know, I did something wrong. And that's okay, that that's happening. But again, you know, inquire, prompt and ask. So, that's why it's often both, we may be picking up on real things, but we may be unlikely, often assigning the incorrect meaning to what we're picking up on. And then other times, we're picking up on stuff. And we don't even know that we're picking up on it, but it's there. So I wouldn't dismiss any, any part of just relational anxiety, or being, it's not just. It is relational anxiety, probably, and it is something you're responding to. And neither of which needs to be something big and scary. It's just something you know, to really see if we can think about what's going on, you know, what's the story behind your anxiety? What might you be picking up on? How might you approach your partner and say, Hey, I, it's probably a mixture of things, but I'm feeling like you blah, blah, blah. I'm a little worried, you know, but it will take both different approaches. So a little inner inquiry and a little outer inquiry. Yeah. But a lot of this stuff, you know, really comes down to fear, fear of rejection, a fear of, of something, you know, in terms of not talking about sex, not asking our partners if what we're picking up on is accurate, not doing something in the context of a relationship. And we may not, we might consciously not be thinking, I'm afraid, but the withdrawal, the retreat, the internalizing, you know, this is the, I think, earlier stuff for most people, when we get to this almost regressed not regreessed place but when we stay internal, and we shut down, and we just simply don't ask, you know, there's a lot more to that story. When we don't engage, especially with a partner, you know, it's not some random person Street, it is our partner that hopefully we know and feel safe with. And it's specifically in that context, that we engage in a dynamic that is likely a reenactment of some earlier, something that we that is surfacing with our partner, but is about the earlier stuff. So figure out what the story is.

Robin | Yeah, yeah. So on your Instagram, you have, I love your Instagram, Todd, there's just a lot of

Todd | Thank you

Robin | amazing advice and wisdom that anybody can learn from. And you have relationship agreements to follow. And I thought we would go through those because they're just it's, they're pretty simple, but like, just good, really good, right? Like, number one, we will create a safe relational culture. Can you please explain what that means? When you want to create a safe relational culture between you is that like, you want to feel safe to be yourself. And also like rules of engagement? Is that what you're where you're going with this?

Todd | Oh, I don't know what I meant. [both laugh] No I'm kidding. I wrote this awhile ago, I tend to just repost things, a safe relational culture. You know, when we think about safety, safety is defined by a variety of things for people in relationships. When I think of safety, I want to feel respected. I want to be given space to speak if I want to speak about something, this is about the difference thing, you know, feeling okay to say, No, I don't want that or I'm going to go to bed early, you can stay up or I'm going to go away with my friends and and not have someone completely overreact. So feeling safe to be ourselves in the context of our partner.

Robin | Yep.

Todd | Yeah.

Robin | And then number two, I think you said we will, we will be realistic about validation. You're not expecting your partner to be a therapist for instance. I mean and be able to validate everything that you are feeling?

Todd | Yeah, I mean, this validation stuffs a lot. I posted something and someone, people really called me out about this, saying that it's really important that our partners validate us, you know, and, of course, it's important that our partners validate us, you know, that that's really, you know, a nice experience most of the time, but we can't expect our partners to always be there to validate us especially during conflict. Sometimes our experience and their experience are going to completely differ, maybe even contradict, and this is what is so important about differentiating in a relationship is being able to stay connected to ourselves and honoring our partner, even if they're completely different without requiring validation and return, you know, I think people haven't talked about healthy communication and healthy commun... I don't know, I read this in some book that was like mind blowing, when I read this there's so healthy communication as defined by, you know, validation, and understanding and feeling seen, etc. But then the person who wrote this was like, but when you're communicating or communicating, so, you know, we've newly redefined healthy communication as only including, you know, the communication that feels good, you know, that's validating where you feel seen, and it's fluffy. And it's wonderful. And like, yes, that's so great. And let's all strive for this. But you know, I think any of us who've been in long term relationships knows, this is not the reality, that people are getting pissed off and triggered. And, you know, we're human beings and adults do throw temper tantrums. And it's simply, you know, sometimes communication goes ary. So we kind of have to allow for that I'm not encouraging abuse, or yelling and screaming, but, you know, we have to be realistic about how much we expect from our partners in terms of how valid they make us feel. Because the real kind of internal validation has to come internally. And of course, we want our partners to be mostly validating, but I'm saying there will be times, maybe 20%, maybe 30% of the time, our partner is simply not going to be able to say, I validate you, I see you, and I want to hold space for you, it just it's just not going to happen. And if the if it does happen 100% of the time, you know, that sounds a little concerning.

Robin | Yes. And I think it's coming, disagreements, arguments from you know, learning the skills that we're all learning, especially this community, right. And it's taking a step back, and like there's, there's times now, it's taken me years to get there. But I'm like, able to be like I was, you're you're right. And it's not about right or wrong. But actually it is sometimes, right. It's just like, actually, I was out of line and you were like, you're right. And I'm I validate how you're, you're thinking and I was not rational in that. Right? Being able to be like, I take accountability for when it's just like, I was wrong and you were right.

Todd | And that takes a lot of practice. years, decades, sometimes. Yeah. So I think when we start people off, who have no relational education, no background, no therapy and saying you must validate each other all the time. It's outrageous.

Robin | Yes. So you know, I'll go through the other ones quickly you say we will not expect the relationship to fll everything in our life, that's for sure. We will not test each other or expect mind reading, we will not hold on to conflict. That's a good one. We will prioritize sex. These are just simple agreements that I think every intimate relationship requires. We will develop self awareness, and we will be independent and autonomous. Those are solid. They really are. So going back to sex, do our kinks and fetishes have anything to do with our mental health or, or childhood trauma?

Todd | Maybe. People ask this question a lot. And it worries me and one part of it worries me is that people may want to ask this question because they want to do away with a kink or a fetish. So as they're approaching their kink or finish as a result of something bad,

Robin | And thinking it's wrong.

Todd | No, like, if I you know, if I can resolve my daddy issues, I won't want to be choked while I'm having sex because being choked is bad. You know, that's a no, you know, we don't want to understand ourselves so we can stop being ourselves. We want to understand ourselves sexually, emotionally, whatever. So we can honor ourselves and feel comfortable being ourselves. So there are some people who have kinks and fetishes that are related to traumas. And there are some people that don't, the same thing could go for food or any type of preference or thing that makes us feel excited, like people who grew up going to the amusement park may like rides later as kids, you know, does that mean? What is that or not? You know, what is it? Honestly, it doesn't matter. What I find fascinating, though, about sex that people are open to learning is that it can deepen the story, your story, it can deepen how you understand dynamic relational dynamics and your own history. You know, for example, people who are more voyeurs you know, often have experiences that are connected to wanting to be invisible, not wanting to be seen, which is often connected to earlier experiences with their parents where they did feel invisible, and they weren't seen, you know, and so is that to say that, okay, now they know that and they shouldn't be worried. No, it's just to say that wow, this is how deep some of this is. And this is sometimes where what arouses us where it comes from. So I think if you want to explore where your erotic mind comes from, I think that's great if you want to create meaning, but only to create meaning.

Robin | Hmm, yes. Wonderful.

Todd | But there's a lot there.

Robin | There sure is.

Todd | But also, it doesn't have to be either. You can just say, You know what, I like feet because I like feet. It doesn't have to be pecific, it doesn't need to be related to a trauma in order for it to be valuable, and pleasurable and wonderful,.

Robin | Yeah. So this is about STIs. How would you discuss the topic of STIs with a partner, who may have unknowingly exposed you to one? How do you address resentment in such a case?

Todd | How do you address STIs with a partner who may have unknowingly exposed you to one? Hmm, seems like it would go the other way around. That the one who exposed the partner?

Again, it's a conversation. I mean, if you want to, the question is, how do you? I'm sorry.

Robin | I'm thinking if it's your partner, and they gave you an STI, and they didn't know they did? And you're present, you're resentful about it? I mean, I think I would be. Having that conversation. I mean, that guess what?

Todd | Yeah, I'd want to know, you know, what's the STI what happened? What's going on? I want to know, if they were tested, if they need treatment, if I need treatment, you know, if there was an open relationship, if it was a closed relationship, what the rules are, in terms of expectations about hooking up with other people. But there's a lot here, but again, I think, you know, you want to talk to your partner.

Robin | Yes. It's funny how there's so much repetition and a lot of these questions that we receive from our community, and just people in general around just having the hard conversations. I mean, I think about an STI, and that's a very serious conversation that you have to have, it's your health. And if there's if this is going in between you, and with other people, you know, this could have a lot of detrimental effects. So it's a conversation you have to have.

Todd | I mean, that's how I always say there's questions within the question. Yeah, I mean, there are questions in that question and you know, I think some of these questions are, you know, you need to talk about it, blah, blah, you know, this kind of logistical action oriented aspect to finding potentially if there is a solution, or at least easing whatever tension the not addressing it as created. But then there's also the question of the question, which is the anxious component, you know, in terms of something is coming off that you are not able to engage around that you're worried about the consequence, the response and the result? Like I was saying, with difference, most people have a hard time negotiating it, because they weren't safe to express difference as a kid, they weren't asked, they weren't told they could be different. Whether that's about emotions, or about hobbies, or whatever difference, you know, the conversation about STIs. STIs have been historically stigmatized, unnecessary, so outrageously, it'd be like, you know, like, we're talking about strep throat, but we're not we're talking about an STI, it's no different. But the discomfort and the fear of bringing it up comes from the cultural stigma that really defines STIs. So there's a lot of different questions that lurk behind some of these questions that are also important to consider. And it's, you know, the, it's, it's a lot of anxiety, I think it's a lot of anxiety. And people want to try to find a solution to that anxiety. And you know, I think we all know, okay, if you have problem with a partner, you have talk to them about it. But what is the experience of a problem? What is your experience of your partner? What is your experience of the relationship? What's the environment of the relationship? what shapes the values that shuts you down to talk about it? Is it cultural? Is it familial? Is it medical? Is it philosophical? You know, what is it? So there's a lot here for people to think about, if they're open to expanding how, how they're experiencing these here and now complex, because that's what's happening is, you know, we experience all of this emotion in the here and now and it shuts us down. And it surfaces, you know, in our current conscious life, but it's about so much more. And so we kind of we really need to widen our perspectives here.

Robin | Yes.

Todd | But it's easy for me to say, you know, when I'm not the person who has to talk to my partner, and I'm not the person who has to make the decision, so I'm biased.

Robin | So, around mental health: I have bipolar disorder, and it affects my ability to be open and communicate effectively. I also have never been in a relationship before or at least not something I would consider serious. I have the biggest crush on a guy from college, but he seems so intimidating. I simply don't know how to approach him. Any tips?

That's a hard one but maybe it just comes down to if you don't try, like, what do you have to lose?

Todd | Yeah, I mean, I think what's interesting about some of these things is we can spend so much more time questioning, wondering, thinking, Oh, no, and being fearful, much more time doing that, than if we were to simply start a conversation, you know, and it's often harder not to than it is to actually engage. I learned this a while ago. But it's really true is that, you know, and our time, and our energy is really fucking precious. And if we're spending, you know, weeks and months in agony worrying about something that could, you know, we could really improve our overall life experience by simply engaging, you know, we have to think about, okay, well, what's going on here that we can't engage and create a sense of calm within ourselves. Because the reality is what we're fearing is actually a lot less scary than not approaching it, because we've spent so much time worrying about it. And worry, and fear is pain and suffering. So you know, if you want to suffer less, and if you want to decrease your pain, this avoidance stuff doesn't necessarily work. It just increases your pain suffering. So talk to the guy. That sounds exciting.

Robin | It does. Take a risk and just do it right? Really, what do you have to lose? Nothing.

Todd | Literally nothing.

Robin | So do you have tips for how to break out of a pattern of being attracted to unavailable people? This really, and I've heard you say this before, Todd, that, and I really would like to understand this better. If you're with somebody that is demonstrating that they're not available to you. This shows that you are unavailable on some level, right yourself? Maybe?

Todd | Yeah.

Robin | But how do you self identify ways that you're unavailable? If that really is the case?

Todd | Well, if you're pursuing only unavailable people, then you're clearly unavailable. You know, if we're pursuing, we're only going to restaurants that don't serve food, you know, we're not, we're trying to restrict our appetite. So, we, the focus lately is so much on other people, they're doing this bad thing, they're toxic, they're in narcissitic, they're unavailable, shift away from focusing on this person being unavailable and focus more on connecting with what it is that you want. And doing that in a way that you can trust yourself and feel confident, in believing that what you want is okay. And I think that when it comes down to is people have very low self esteem, and don't take themselves seriously enough, because they don't trust themselves. And so they pursue people that can't give them what they're seeking. And again, this is about earlier stuff. But it can be a pattern. I mean, the other thing, just in general, there are a lot of unavailable people, not bad people, but people that are just preoccupied, maybe literally busy, maybe emotionally unavailable, a lot of people are unavailable.

Robin | Not everybody is relationship, um, not even the word ready. It's like they actually don't have the capacity to have a long term relationship. They just, or the skills or the want, like what would you say around that Todd?

Todd | Yeah and I think a lot of people aren't looking for, aren't available to themselves, are busy with work, are socially scheduled to the point where they literally don't have time. For whatever reasons aren't available. And that, I think is more than majority people. I don't know, I was reading some statistic. It's a lot of people.

Robin | Wow.

Todd | But again, you know, I think what prevents us from investing in ourselves. And that's really the question because if we want a relationship and we're pursuing relationships with people who are rejecting us, for whatever reason, doesn't matter. You know, why are we doing that? Yeah, you know, so many people focus on why they do that, you know, or why didn't they want me? But the point is why do you want them? Why are you pursuing them? If you're pursuing someone who is not able to give you what you want it's wrong.

Robin | Yeah.

Todd | It's like going to a sushi restaurant if you don't eat sushi.

Robin | Yeah, yeah. Why are you doing that?

Todd | The challenge though, is that so many people develop attachments and I don't mean attachment style. I mean, just attachments they get close, they feel a bond they feel chemistry, compatibility, whatever word and they feel attached to someone who they also know is unavailable and so it can you know, and being single and dating is really fucking hard and really lonely. And if it's been a long time, and someone holds us and kisses us and shows up sometimes and we fuck, and it feels good, and, you know, it's like breathing air. And so you know, it can feel like Mission Impossible to say, Okay, I'm gonna cut off my windpipe and never read again. But you know, to some extent, it's okay if you can't stop seeing this person or talking to them, because I think it's hard for many people, been there. But I what I would say is make sure you're seeing other people go on other dates, put yourself in other positions. So you can see and be reminded that there actually are people out there, it's not going to take as much work as you're putting in to feel desired by this person. Where they will be available. And they'll say, When are you free next, and you'll set up plans and you'll meet and it won't be hard, logistically, you won't be negotiating the intimacy, it'll just happen. But if you stay waiting by your phone, dating this one person who's unavailable, nothing's going to change. So it's so easy to say stop pursuing unavailable, but some people simply cannot. So then what I would say is start pursuing other people.

Robin | Yeah. So with jealousy tied when you've got clients, one of the question is, what are some tools to use for jealousy? I get jealous of my partner's best friend. And when I was thinking about this question, I was like, Well, does this come down to trust, like past or past wounds? And when you're dealing with somebody that has jealousy issues? I mean, it could I mean, it's so dependent on on the, the relationship, right? I mean, you could be with somebody that's actually demonstrating behaviors that you're like, are not are not cool. Like, I'm feeling kind of jealous here because you're crossing some lines. Or it could be related to past stuff. Right?

Todd | Yeah, I mean, the first thing I'll say though, is jealousy is a normal experience emotion, like happiness, joy, excitement. You know, I think, similar to anger, jealousy has been one of those experiences and emotions that have been stigmatized as being bad as being rooted in something negative. But sometimes it's not sometimes you know, it's okay to be jealous. And I think that's kind of the first step, when we think about jealousy is accepting that we're gonna feel jealous, it's not going to kill us.

Robin | Yeah it's a normal emotion.

Todd | It's a normal emotion, a normal thing. And to be comfortable talking about it. Again, this is where I think humor is a good idea. It does depend on the situation, as you're saying, like, you know, your partner might be crossing a boundary, you know, if they're spending every day with their friend and canceling plans on you to spend with their friends. I mean, I think the question isn't about jealousy. The question is about, you know, getting your needs fulfilled in the relationship, and it sounds like you may be shrinking down. So this is again, about engaging. But jealousy is normal, I would say, you know, have a conversation with your partner, not on the daily because that is unnecessary for both. But you know, one conversation, maybe come up with a secret word, it's a silly word, ask for reassurance when you need it. But you know, I think really, jealousy becomes such a monster, scary monster for people. And it doesn't have to be.

Robin | So what do you mean, when you're, when you're asking somebody to come up with a silly word? Like, can you give us some context around that?

Todd | Yeah it's like, I'm feeling, I'm feeling blueberry, again, I don't know. Or I'm feeling like Charlie's entered the room, you know, if you come up with something, that it's not a scary thing, because some people they hear the word jealousy and they go on the defensive or whatever. Or they become passive aggressive, which is what you don't want to do if you're jealous. But to just face it head on. But a lot of this again, comes down to I think self soothing and differentiating in terms of being able to be separate, and also being able to let your partner be separate too and feeling comfortable and safe in that space. And jealousy often disrupts that comfort and safety and it feels uncomfortable. It feels like it's not a good feeling. So you know, acceptance, tolerance, and coping with that some of that jealousy without writing it a full narrative and story into what it might mean beyond a simple feeling. And again, it might mean something but you know, who knows?

Robin | Yeah. So there is so much talk, education, tools about self reflection around your, your attachment style. And I know you, like you know, we started this conversation about how you're not it's not about labels. And you know, you've said, you say that adult love is too complex for an attachment diagnosis. Right. But I'm sure you get a lot of people that are saying, like this question is, can you offer tools and healthy habits for an anxious attachment style? And if somebody was avoidant, you could probably give them some tools too but when people ask you about that, what what is your approach?

Todd | Well, if I have a client that comes in, and they see, I'm anxiously attached, and it feels uncontrollable, what do I do? I say, Tell me about your relationship. You know, what's going on? What are you anxious about? Are you anxious they're going to leave? Are you anxious that you're unlovable? You know, what's the story? I want to know if this the first time you've experienced this type of anxiety. Or, you know, I want to know what's going on there. If someone wants to use that frame, then that's, you know, I will work within it. But it's not something that I voluntarily pursue, just because I think it's become more of a cultural phenomenon and a trend, then. I don't know, at least for me, then something that's been helpful in my clinical work or just work in general in terms of understanding people. I often talk a lot about attachment in terms of attachment traumas, and in terms of what it means to attach sometimes when people are reenacting certain attachment dynamics with their partner. But oftentimes, as adults, those dynamics are tied up into a variety of different real life experiences that contribute to the felt experience of anxiety. So it isn't, it's, it's rare, that it's just a simple matter of oh somebody has an anxious attachment style, and they're just anxious. As I was saying, Before, you know, you'd ask the difference between insight and, or intuition and I don't know, relational anxiety, anxiety.

Robin | And anxiety.

Todd | And, you know, as I said, it's usually both. So it's rare that I have someone come in where they're anxious about their relationship, claiming to have an anxious attachment style, and they're not actually responding to a partner that's doing something or a relational environment or something that is contributing to their anxiety. So I want to know what the story is, you know, I, and in terms of their life, their experience growing up, their attachment relationships, but also what's going on in the relationship, what's trust like, what's safety like? You know, if it's anxiety about being abandoned. You know, does the partner know? What does the partner do? Are they willing to offer reassurance? Or do they just yell and say, I can't give you reassurance? You know, I can't remind you every time that I love you, you know, which isn't a very loving thing to say it would make me feel anxious, too. So there's a full spectrum of color here that goes missed, I think when people are like, Oh, my attachment style is anxious and my partner is avoidant. What do we do? You know, there's, there's a lot there. So I don't necessarily know what to tell this person, but this is what I would do in session. And usually, once the thing, the blank start to be filled in with information and story, and color, there's, it becomes self evident what needs to be done. But people I think, have gotten so disconnected from their cell themselves, that it can be hard to understand that the difference between you know, is this a complete, anxious attachment style is this you're being very triggered by your the dynamic that's been created in your relationship, you know, what's happening?

Robin | Yes. Wow, I love that. Something that you've said that I'm going to quote you, you say traditional relationships aren't the goal, break the rules and cultivate a relationship trajectory that works best for you. There is no inherently factually correct way to structure a relationship. That's just the truth, right? I think the older I get, the more

Todd | But not the truth that we grew up with.

Robin | Absolutely not. And I think that we're still it's like, We're lost in this dynamic of wanting to have the traditional, but also not understand, like, it's like not fully understanding and living the fact that there's, that's not traditional, and it's not, we all have to create the relationship that we want, which is so custom to two different individuals coming together with two different histories and how we were raised. And in our past relationships, it's just it's way more complicated than that. There's no such thing as a fairy tale, which is what you talk a lot about do.

Todd | I wish there was, I mean, I was in a relationship for 10 years. And it ended and, like, the idea of getting in another relationship, you know, I say, I want it to be forever, even though I know that, you know, it's not necessarily it's sometimes not a thing anymore, that people don't stay together forever. You know, but I grew up in the, in the, in the fairytale land where, you know, you got married and stayed together forever and, you know, vows till death do you part, but it's just not how things have at least currently. unfolded with love lately.

Robin | Yeah. So Todd, tell us about your courses that you offer, you have courses on your, on your website, and how people, you know, there's a lot of people that just don't have access to a therapist. Or let's just like, you know, where do you start, right? But you do offer your courses online. And so how does that work with people that want to engage with you and in grow and learn about themselves and relate better? Tell us about that.

Todd | Yeah, so the course is on love and sex, there's two separate courses that are part of the program. But I think the best part of the program is the sessions with me. And those are sessions with a group of people. For me, they're extremely powerful. It's basically like group therapy, where, you know, we talk about all of the questions here, but we get the story. And I ask about the story. And I hear the story. And we all share, including myself, the story, and how it's all very relatable in terms of the anxieties that come up, what shuts us down, the origins of those withdrawals, etc. So those to me are the most important aspects of the program. But also when you sign up, you get classes and workbooks with exercises to practice and journals to help you reflect better and create self awareness.

Robin | I love that.

Todd | And that's online.

Robin | Yes. Wonderful. And that's so that's on your www.toddbaratz.com website.

Todd | That's on my website. But also, like most therapists have courses. And so as therapy for some people isn't accessible, these courses are really great ways to work on yourself. So whether it's mine or someone else's, you know, you can really find a lot of programs online, low cost that can be really impactful in your relationship in your life.

Robin | Definitely. You know, I love the fact that you, you share that you've been in therapy since you were 10 years old.

Todd | Forever.

Robin | And you're still, you're still doing it.

Todd | Still learning.

Robin | And I think there's a stigma around therapy. It's so necessary. I love it there. I love going to my therapist.

Todd | I need the space.

Robin | You do. I mean, some people don't have that. But Todd, you can be that for people at an accessible price by people taking your course. So that's fantastic. Well, I so enjoyed our time together.

Todd | Me too.

Robin | I really appreciate the work you're doing and we'll continue bringing you into our community for help.

Todd | Yeah me too. It was good to see you again. Thank you for having me here.

Robin | Thank you, Todd. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.

Todd | You too.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey