Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 3 Episode #5 with Vienna Pharaon | Transcript

22.02.16

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today I had the honor of speaking with Vienna Pharaon, a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in New York, where she treats individuals, couples and families in a clinical setting. I just finished reading Vienna's book, The Origins Of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate The Way We Live and Love. It is a profound guide to understanding and overcoming wounds from your family of origin. You know, I read a lot of relationship books. I read about one a week and this book has had a lasting impact on me. I have been doing a deep dive into my own wounds and working to change unwanted patterns in my close relationships. And we can all benefit from Vienna's work. I hope our conversation inspires you to read her book, and begin healing old wounds, which in turn can help improve the quality of relationships and the quality of your life. Enjoy.

Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships and they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love...

I am so very excited and honored to have our guest today, Vienna Pharaon of mindfulmft. And welcome Vienna!

Vienna Pharaon | Thank you, Robin. I'm so excited to be here. Such a lovely introduction. And yeah, I know, it's been a long time coming for us.

Robin Ducharme | It really has. And Vienna, I know, you are releasing your book. And by the time this episode comes out, your book has been released. And I feel very privileged to have received a copy before it's out in the world. I'm sure there's, there's a number of us that have had the honor of reading your book, but I just want to say that it, it was, it's an incredible book.

Vienna Pharaon | Thank you.

Robin Ducharme | And I'm excited to dive into it today. It's called The Origins Of You, and those of you that are watching this on YouTube, you're gonna be able to, you have to get a copy. Because I love listening to books, and having the real copies that I can highlight, make notes, of course, refer back. But I do recommend that people have the paper copy because it's like it really is a deep dive. And I was telling my friends and family about reading this book. And I'm like, oh, no, there's no such thing as speed reading this book, you gotta take your time. Like, this is healing work. And this is deep. It's deep work. So first, I want to congratulate you really, Vienna.

Vienna Pharaon | Thank you. Thank you, thank you. And I really appreciate the kind words it's so nice to start getting feedback on the book, outside of my editor, or legal being like, Okay, we have to change this, or we have to do this, it's I love that it's slowly dripping out into the world. And obviously, February 21st is when it actually hits everyone else. But you're right, it's a I, I hope that the reader or the listener if people are going to listen to it on audiobook, feels really held by me throughout because it is such a heavy lift. But my hope is that it feels like a safe exploration and, but like a necessary one, right? One that we all really need to dive into.

Robin Ducharme | I agree, I felt that way I felt very held by you. I felt very supported. And it's something like you you do refer you go back to the fact that this is a process. Of course, it is our like, our healing is lifelong. And, and this is not like, you know, like this is why I'm like, Oh, thank goodness, I have this copy in, you know, in print. Because I have to. I'm already I already know, I've identified some of my wounds for sure. And I have more than one, which I was like, because so let's just dive into talking about it.

Vienna Pharaon | Okay, let's do it. Let's do it.

Robin | Okay, so your book is called The Origins Of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate The Way We Live and Love. So your body of work a lot that you focus on in your therapy work with clients, individuals and couples, is family of origin work. Correct?

Vienna | Yes.

Robin | So Vienna, can you please, for those that don't know you and aren't following you yet. Can you please give us a background on on how you got into focusing on this, this body of work and how important this is with clients and really how that blossomed in your career and why it's so important?

Vienna | Yeah, yeah, of course. So I went to school for marriage and family therapy. So I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. And yeah, that training is really focused on understanding the systems that we grew up in, and how those systems shape us, right. And so of course, one of the first systems that we look at is our family of origin. Family, right? If we just want to shorten it, right, the family that you grew up around, and for some of us, that might be one family, for others of us, that might be two or multiples, we might think about parents, step parents, sometimes grandparents, you know, you notice, like, who kind of comes into that system. And it's part of your childhood, some of it is blood related, and some of it is not. And we have to explore how these systems not only shape us and teach us about the world at large, about ourselves, about relationships, but also the wounds and you alluded to it before, when you said I have more than one, but also the wounds that we accrue. During this time, I focus deeply on understanding our family system, what those relationships were like growing up, how they've evolved, and what's changed. Some of it is between you and those people. Other times the focus is around the people you observed, right? So sometimes it's through experience that we learn things. And other times it's through observation that we learn things. And so yeah, this deep dive into family systems work is vital. And I know sometimes people roll their eyes and they're like, I'm unaffected by it. Like, there's nothing bad there. I don't want to go backward in order to go forward. And I get it, I get it. I know. Of course, so many clients come into therapy, and they're like, here's the thing, I want to focus on, here's the issue at hand. And listen, I was that person at one point too. So I fully get it.

Robin | I think we all have been there. We’re like, I've done so much therapy, and it's just like this is the issue. No, it's deeper than that.

Vienna | That's right. Yeah. Right. So it's like, here's this gentle guide to say, hey, could we just turn our heads around for a little bit? I don't want to stay here forever. This is not a book about bashing parents or throwing people under the bus or anything like that. This is a book that says let's understand how the past is with us right now. Because I promise you it is. Sometimes in really obvious ways, sometimes in really subtle ways. But the past is, is running the show. If you are an adult right now who has any unwanted pattern in your life, I promise you that looking backward is going to really support in opening this up and finding a path forward.

Robin | Wow. Yes, I have already started to experience Vienna. So I'm like, this is powerful stuff. I love it so much. So you start the book by telling your story about when you were five years old. And you had an experience with your parents that really, what you say. It really ignited, and formed your safety wound. So there's different types of wounds. We're gonna go into that. But can you tell the listeners about that?

Vienna | Yeah, my parents got separated when I was in first grade, they went through a nine year divorce process, which was the longest in the state of New Jersey at the time.

Robin | Yeah, that is such a long time.

Vienna | It's a long time. And their separation process into the divorce process was highly conflictual. There was a lot of psychological abuse, manipulation, gaslighting, paranoia, and emotional flooding, like it was really, really hard to be around and to watch and experience. I am also an only child. And I share that detail because I was this tiny little human existing in this in this system, really by herself, right? There was no other sibling, where I could say, hey, oh, my gosh, this is what's up, can you believe what's going on? I didn't have any other adults in my life in terms of, you know, neither one of my parents ever re-partnered or remarried. And so there was no step parent or partner who could be a source of grounding or clarity for me. And so as a tiny human going through this experience, right, it's just like I was in it by myself. And yeah, I share this story at the beginning of the book about this massive rupture that took place in my family, really the initiation into the separation and the divorce. And the fear that you know, there's an acute moment where I'm running from my grandmother's home to the neighbor's home because my dad is on the way over, after he told us if we had left the house, you know not to come back. And you know, I'll find myself hiding in a closet with my mom as he and police officers come to the neighbor's door. And you know, I remember this moment being in the closet. And then there was a moment before where I was peeking over the windowsill. And I could see my dad from afar, kind of circling my grandmother's home and just wanting sort of, really feeling split, right? Like, Hey, Dad, I'm right here. And then also with my mom, like, oh, shoot, we're scared. And we're, you know, existing in this moment, and I need to quiet down. And yeah, this splitting moment of how do I protect both of them? You know, how do I care for both of them? How do they both know that I love each of them equally? And yeah, this was sort of this, this big rupture at such an early age. And as I said, Before, they really moved into a highly conflictual place with each other. And so from there, I took on this role of flying under the radar, being the Peacekeeper, saying the things that I thought both of them needed to hear in order to make sure that the operation kept on functioning, I really believed that they were, you know, one hair away from just crumbling, crashing and burning. I say they were crashing and burning in the system around me. And so it left me feeling like there wasn't room for me to not be okay. They were not okay, clearly, I could see that. And so I was really afraid.

Robin | So you had to be okay.

Vienna | Yeah. Right, I moved into this space of presenting like I was okay. And listen to this to this day. You know, it's, I don't know that that was necessarily true that I couldn't be okay. Maybe there would have been room for me. But the point is that I didn't know that at the time. And so I became this person who presented I was a little girl who was sort of a needless little girl, who was always saying everything was fine. And I'm good. And I got good at anything I put my mind to relieve as much stress as possible. But that little girl turned into a woman who was also a needless woman, a woman who kept saying that things were fine when they weren't, who had zero boundaries. Who pretended like things were, I pretended, like I was unaffected by things that I was affected by, because I just didn't know how to transition out of this role that I had carried with me for decades.

Robin | Wow. I it's just it's so this is there were just so many realizations in this book, Vienna. And we'll go into this, but I just think that in itself, it's like you are, it's this whole thing about adapting in this role that you were put in, it was totally out of your control it was going on between your parents, and how understanding all of that brings you into your adulthood. Whereas those say behaviors they become, like, we know is like maladaptive, right?

TVienna | hat's absolutely right.

Robin | I'm thinking of, but it's like, you don't know that you're not consciously acting this way. And that's, and that's where I think there's, there's so much learning and healing to be done. And I just, I love how you teach it in the book. Because I mean, obviously, I would love for you to be my therapist so you could walk me throught this. But a lot of people can't, they don't have, they don't have that. They don't have the therapist they can work with. But this book really gives you the tools to go through and identify and name it, like you're and we'll go through all the steps that you can go through. So then you went to therapy yourself, right? And you said, you saw how a finite experience that happened decades ago. And it wasn't that one experience that spurred it on, but all these things, which I think you know, the combination of all those years, and living going through the nine year divorce separation with your parents, all of that just kind of reinforces this, these thought patterns, these behaviors, right? You said I had attempted to ignore the original wound that had shattered my sense of safety, and to sidestep the resulting pain. So this work, yeah, go ahead.

Vienna | I was gonna say this is what so many of us try to do we minimize or distort or invalidate our experiences. And listen, I was this person who walked into grad school, saying My parents divorce didn't affect me and bless the professors and advisor, and supervisor who were like, Oh, this sweet woman. But to acknowledge the pain required me to come into contact with the truth that I wasn't fine. And that was so hard for me because for so many decades, that's what I had taught myself to believe. And it felt really overwhelming at a point to be like, I'm not okay, this did affect me. There's so much vulnerability in that but then there's all of the emotion that comes to the surface that wants to then be processed. And so I fully understand why people don't necessarily want to lean into this work, right? Where it's like, well, I'm okay. I'm a fully functioning adult, I'm doing okay in the world. Like, Why dig this up? And, again, I was there before, but we dig this up because the pain comes with us. It finds a way, there's a point in the book where like, our wounds are not out to harm us. They are out to be healed, right? They're tugging at our shirts. They're just like, hey, please, because our wounds will find a way to resurface, they'll find a way to show us the pattern over and over again. And when we just try to brute force our way through or when we try to say like, I'm going to skip over the stuff that was so long ago why is it even relevant today? That it is right like to tend to the origin wound, right, the pain that set the framework for whatever it is that we're dealing with today, we must go back into that space, we can't just tend to what's showing up today. Because otherwise, we're bypassing the original pain, right? We're bypassing whether it's the, for me, the five year old, six year old, seven year old me who wanted to be acknowledged who needed to be seen who needed to know that there was space to feel whatever emotion that was there for her. But it's so easy, and it's so common to want to skip over it, to avoid it. I often say we can not avoid our way to healing. Right, we can certainly use discernment, we must really need to, but we can't avoid our way to healing. We have to get to that origin pain, that origin wound to really attend to it properly.

Robin | Yes. And you do say that you've yet to meet a person who doesn't have some kind of origin wound. This is this and you know, something that you do talk about which I think you were saying this too when you walked into grad school, you're like, you were like almost idealizing it's not idealizing your childhood, you were like, Okay, I was good. I wasn't affected. It was because of my parents. It was between them. Like, I'm good. Right? But a lot of people will, will come into your office maybe and just say like, I'm good. Like, I had a great childhood. My parents are still married, they're still like, they're in a loving relationship. And they don't want to like you say in the book, you say they don't want to feel disloyal or unappreciative of the care and love that they had as a child growing up, or their wound compares. They're comparing their wounds to other people, like, other people had it way worse, their childhood was way worse than mine. And I'm good. So let's talk about that on just like it may not. This doesn't mean that you have to have had the worst childhood or gone through a very terrifying experience. Like you went through Vienna, right? But it's like acknowledging that yeah, there there there is inevitably going to be some wounding and you're going to, you can become aware of.

Vienna | Absolutely. Yeah, we, I mean, we are allowed to have great parents, right? It's, and that's what it feels like we're not searching for, you know, we're not on the hunt to find something wrong with, you know, with this experience, but the reality of it is, is that if your parents are human, right, then they're flawed, right, then they, they're not going to get everything right all of the time. And so, yeah, again, this isn't about throwing the adults under the bus. This is about naming and connecting to the thing that was hurtful, the thing that caused pain, the thing that caused wounding, certainly some people have trauma. You know, you hear some people's stories, and you're like, oh my gosh, right, like the weight of that. And we know that other people have stories that look nothing like that. And you're right, though, the wound comparison, so many people do that as a way to avoid naming what they went through. They sort of feel embarrassed or guilty, like so and so has this terrible story. I would feel ridiculous, right? And complaining about this little thing that happened in my life. But that's the thing that takes us away. It's a distraction away from that which needs to be healed. And so I tell people sort of to just exist in your own experience. This is not about anybody else other than you and being able to name that and shed a little bit of light on what that pain was, is going to start carving out the path forward. You can absolutely have had a really great childhood. But again, like I said in the book, I have yet to meet someone so if you're out there, let me know. But I have yet to meet someone who doesn't carry around some type of pain, some type of I wish this had been different. I wish that right is like an to really tune into that, because the I wish this had been different is probably showing up in some way, currently.

Robin | And so that's one of the questions that you ask, that's one of the first questions that you ask if it's okay, let's say a couple of comes in, and they're like, Okay, we just, we just cannot communicate, it's just not working out, like we fight over the same thing over and over again. Okay, so that's the issue at hand. But you're going to flip that upside down and be like, Let's go deeper here. And one of the questions you say is what you most wanted was, what you most wanted in your family system, but didn't get was likely something you really could have used. So, you give examples of and this is like some of where the wounds are naming, right? You say, maybe you wanted to feel worthy, even when you weren't bringing home perfect grades? Or you wanting to belong and feel accepted, and loved for your differences. And you give an example in your book, and I love the fact that you shared anonymous stories about your clients that you've helped. And there was one client that you helped who was gay, and his family was very religious, and, and they, they pretty much shunned him in the house, right? It was just like, and it wasn't just, it was the parents and the siblings, it was like, you're not allowed to be gay. So that is, I mean, that feeling of acceptance and the worthiness, that you just don't feel worthy, or safe in your own home. There's a lot of wounding that can go along with that.

Vienna | There's a lot of wounding, right? Worthiness, belonging, safety.

Robin | Yes. Belonging.

Vienna | You know, trusting people. The people you love the most in the world and the people who you think are, are supposed to love you the most in the world, and having that be something that's ruptured? Yeah, that question, that prompt is such a powerful one, right? Like, what is it that you wanted most as a child and didn't get? And I remember when a therapist asked me that question, I was like, oh, boy, okay. Yeah. Right. Like, I wanted to know that it was okay for me to not be okay. Right. And like, I needed to know that, right. I needed that to be more explicit, right. Because the way that I was showing up in the world, you know, it was it was working for them. Right, it was working for them. Know what I mean? Most parents like an easygoing child, right, at most parents, like a child who is doing well in different areas of their of their school, their extracurriculars, whatever it is. And so I had found this way of coping with it, but I really wanted to know that it was okay for me to not be okay. I had a full emotional experience during that time that I would say neither one of them really understood deeply. And I wish that that had been the case. I think that question, you know, even for listeners right now, to take a moment to say like, what did I wish for the most What did I crave for, as a child the most that I didn't get and as we come into the, the wounds, right, it might be like, I wished that I knew that I was good enough for a parent, I wish I didn't have to be, quote, unquote, perfect in order to be loved. I wish that I didn't have to perform or be the type of child that my mom wanted me to be in order for there to be peace in the house. I wish that I was a priority to a parent who was working endless hours and seemed to never have time for me. I wish that people cared about my emotional well being and created a safe environment in the home instead of constantly screaming and yelling at each other. You know, the answers are endless, right. But to tune it into, what is it that you wish that you craved is going to bring you closer and closer to understanding where you might spend some time in the origin healing process.

Robin | Yes. Wonderful. Okay, so let's get into the wounds, Vienna.

Vienna | Sure.

Robin | There are five, correct?

Vienna | Yes, I speak of five in the book. Yeah.

Robin | Okay. So the first, the first one that I wrote down was worthiness wound, I want to feel worthy. And so how does this and actually you said, the more time I spend with people, the more I'm convinced that we all have some type of worthiness wound. And I think, you know, and I think that this is true on many on many levels, and this is why, like, you know, there's there's so much in social media memes, whatever else about like, and you know, you're talking about self love and self care a lot about like, you, are you do you feel worthy, are you and we're looking for that worthiness from somebody else. Maybe we didn't get that in some way in our families. So can you give us examples of worthiness wounds and how they operate, how people might operate from this wounded place.

Vienna | Yeah, absolutely. I do think that probably all of us brush up against it at minimum at some point in our lives, right. Am I worthy? Am I deserving? Am I good enough? And, you know, this is, one of the examples that are given the book is about a woman who, she shares that when she was quite young, her, her mom left, her mom left the family. It was her father, and her sister. And one day, the mom just says, This isn't good for me. And she gets in a car with a friend of hers and drives off. And the client talks about how she like what else besides it being related to me, right? Because she said, this isn't good for Mama. That's what the mom said when she left. And so she and her sister had really internalized that as, as, okay, there's something wrong, it had to be us, right? Because what else is it? You gave no other explanation. And of course, as again, as tiny humans, right, our brains are not able to process things differently, right? We personalize things and so of course, right? When we have these childhood experiences, it is something that we internalize as being problematic with us. And so this is a great example of okay, I believe that I am undeserving unworthy of people sticking around of people loving me of people staying with me, fast forward. Here's this woman who finds ways to push partners away. Even before they want to exit a relationship, right? She finds ways to test and push and you know, sabotage, and listen, sabotage is a protective mechanism. But we still engage in sabotage and really ending relationships because at the core of it, right, we're, we still believe that we are unworthy undeserving of being loved, chosen, having somebody commit to us, and on and on.

Robin | And she would test, she would test them in the fact that she would put demands on her partner, on the people she was dating.

Vienna | Yes.

Robin | Like, I need you to pick this up for me. I need you to do my laundry or pick up my dry cleaning. Yeah, like doing a lot of...

Vienna | Tasking.

Robin | Yeah.

Vienna | Yes, tasking people. And then if they didn't follow through on something, she'd become really passive aggressive and punish them. And this, you know, obviously, that's something that people don't like, and it does push people away. But she had never spent time talking about her family of origin, she had never spent time in therapy, really connecting to and feeling into, and really grieving the pain of when her mom left. And we started to see how this worthiness origin wound was running the show in her adult romantic relationships, because at her core, because she had never tended to this wound, right, that wound was essentially running rampant. And it was pushing people away, and making great relationships end prematurely because she didn't believe that she could receive that. And so we had to work to really tend to that pain to start to make space for there to be a different story. Right? It's sort of that it's kind of this fulfilling prophecy, right? As we talk, self fulfilling prophecies of like, I don't believe I'm deserving. And so I'm going to do things to really make sure that that message gets repeated to me over and over and over again, right, it was easy for her when relationships would end for her to, you know, fold her arms across her chest and say, See, I'm not worthy. See, people leave always right. Instead of

Robin | Yeah, this is the way it's always been.

Vienna | Yeah, exactly. Right. So instead of getting back into the driver's seat, to say, Okay, there's something that needs tending to here in order for me to really heal this wound more, right? And it doesn't mean that we heal and then we're done. Right grief will show up over and over and over again. But it's, you know, to tend to it more and more so that it's not running the show, is really the goal that we're aiming for.

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Robin | Yes, and one of the steps in healing which we, hopefully, we have time to go through. But if not you just have to get the book no matter what but is grieving and I think this is, you know, you are you're making your naming so that there's awareness, and you are witnessing, and grieving is so important. And I think this is so similar to you know, losing someone you love, grieving is something you cannot bypass. And in the same sense with this woman that you're talking about, she, she literally lost her childhood. I mean, she was forced to almost become like this adult in such a, she was without a mom, right? And, and then, oh, it's just so sad, but I mean, you think about it, and you can understand how she without, without actually looking at that and grieving everything she'd gone through. It's like a part of herself that she had to reclaim.

Vienna | Yeah, and some of the other like some, some of the other ways that it can show up, if you are a people pleaser, or if you are a perfectionist. If you're a performer, right, if you had any experiences in your childhood, where it was like, Okay, I need to be x, whatever x is a great student, a phenomenal athlete, I need to be a bit more quiet, I need to be a bit more this, you know, if you had those experiences that made you realize, like, Okay, I am more loved, I am more accepted, I am more, there's more peace in my home, there's more calm in my home, when I do X, Y, and Z, a lot of times that's wrapped up in worthiness, right? I am worthy of my dad's attention when I perform well on the soccer field, I am worthy of my mom's love when I have the type of body she wants me to have. I am, right? And and so we really tune into some of these things, we're worthiness can really start to get picked at. Right, where it's like, ah, there's something conditional here. And I talk about conditional love in the worthiness chapter. Very quickly, I know we want to get to, you know, all of the wounds. But one of the things that I had realized personally, is that my, my dad was someone who would show up really beautifully when I was, quote, unquote, the good girl when I was behaving, and showing up in the way that he liked. And if there was ever a time that I was not, you know, and ie., being a teenager, like, I was never doing anything that I think was particularly, you know, out there. But, you know, if I was engaging in a way that he didn't like, then he would withhold love and communication from me, oftentimes giving me the silent treatment for days or weeks on end. And I started to learn that when I was, quote, unquote, easy going, that was my connection to presence, love, communication. And when I was more difficult, quote, unquote, that was going to lead to disconnection or the absence of love. And it went really well hand in hand with the role that I had taken on, I'm fine, I'm good, etc., et cetera, right? Because it was like, Okay, well, now just be an easygoing person. And you can have love and presence and connection as well. Right? And so just so fascinating, again, to just think of like, what those childhood experiences are that create the conditions of operation for us as adults today.

Robin | Yeah. And I think we did touch, we did talk about belonging wound. That is the second wound that you teach about. Belonging wound, I want to belong. And, you know, you talk about this dynamic on how it's human nature for us to choose acceptance and belonging over authenticity. Yeah. And a quote that I wrote down was, As a kid, you don't have a say, the beliefs you're given, fitting in is the golden ticket. Like, it's about, and when, when you're talking about your belonging and a family. You're, you're given your beliefs, right? Like you're being said, here's like, saturated with all the what, this is where we do, this is what I believe this is how we act. And some of its just you know, family traditions and a lot of its some of its really good, good things, right. But then, there are things that for instance, when the story that you tell about this boy who turned into a man of course, and he was gay, and his and he was not it was not a safe place for him to be himself. He could not be his authentic self. So he was having to choose between the group, compared to himself authentic self vs attachment and attachment won.

Vienna | Yeah, I love what Dr. Gabor Mate says, right. It's like these are our two core needs as babies, as children, right. It's like authenticity and attachment. Right, but when attachment is at risk, right, we will trade our authenticity for it right because it's the lifeline. And they both are in their own right. But as babies, as kiddos right, attachment, right, because that's our, that's our emotional safety, our physical safety, our spiritual safety, you know, everything, right. So we we must trade authenticity in order to have attachment. And so if we grew up in a family system, and I also talk about societal systems, right of like how we have to navigate the world at large to, quote-unquote, belong to quote-unquote, feel safe. You know, that requires us to shift ourselves and we often become inauthentic in that space, if what we're trying to preserve is love, connection, presence, etc.

Robin | Yes, a belonging wound can show up later in life. Right? You do talk about that. So it's not just like, you know, we are talking about family of origin. But our wounds can absolutely, they can be formed at any point in our lives.

Vienna | Absolutely. The first time, anything significant happens that sort of shifts the trajectory. And that can happen at any point in our lives. Of course, this book does focus mostly on what happens in our family of origin. But absolutely right, because the first time we might experience something might have been in our teenage years, it might be in our young adult life. And it takes shape and form and sets us on a very different path than the one that we were on before. And so yeah, we're not limited just to the family of origin. But that said, usually, when we have some type of a sensation present day, it's likely that we're going to be able to find some connection in the family of origin.

Robin | Yeah. Okay, so the third is prioritization wound. I want to be prioritized. And you give an example of sharing a story of one of your clients whose mom was really depressed. And it was this little girl's job to really tend to her mom, who was depressed, and her dad would say, be good, be happy, go cheer your mom up, right? So it's like, she's put in this place this role of, you're not the priority as a little girl that needs attention, your mom is not doing well, we have to tend to her. So like the priority wasn't on caring and tending to the little girl that needed that.

Vienna | Right. There are so many things that can take over in prioritization.

Robin | Yeah or like you said, some people have, like, There's one story that you have about, it was a boy whose mom had two jobs. And I think this is very, this is common, both parents, both parents are working. Maybe you're the one that has to get yourself home from school, feed yourself, feed the siblings dinner before the parents come home. So you really it's not like, this is the function of the family. But it's not. And it's not your fault. There's no fault, you know, right.

Vienna | Exactly. Yeah, sometimes wounds happen without there being any type of malicious intention. Right. Like, of course, sometimes we look and we're like, wow, that's clearly negligence. Wow, that's clearly abused. But oftentimes, right, there's these stories that are just like, these are, these are just the circumstances of life. And I think sometimes it's even harder, right? When we know that a parent worked their tail off, when a parent sacrificed everything for us to be able to come into contact with the fact that there still might be pain there. You know, that part is so hard because we hold them in such a high regard. We love them so deeply. Yet, there can still be a wound there. And yeah, with prioritization, right at the core of it, it's, I want to know that I am important. And I want to know that I can be a priority in your life, or I want to be a priority in your life. And whether it's addiction that takes over whether it's a mental health challenge that takes up space, I think that's what you were talking about with the little girl whose mom became depressed at a certain point. And that became the thing that, you know, the family was so focused on, whether it's a parent who is focused on dating, whether it's a couple that has been in high conflict, and that's the thing that's been the priority for two years. You know, sometimes it's ongoing, sometimes it's sort of this acute moment, that where it happens, but you know, to think about what else Oh, and of course, I should certainly mention this, because this is a really common one, right as a parent who prioritizes work over your child, you know, and that's, that's one that we see so often. Right? Your work is more important than showing up for my recitals, for my games. For me. To be present in my emotions, right?

Robin | Yeah. And so this client's in the book her name is Isabel. So it as an adult and in her relationship with her partner, it was this prioritization wound that was on that she didn't realize until she worked started working with you was showing up in her relationship in the fact that she didn't feel prioritized with her partner, and her behaviors became quite controlling, right? Like her partner wanted autonomy and like some independence and being like, I just want to hang out with my friends. Without you sometimes, and I don't want you to be like checking up on me every like when you're coming home, and feeling like I'm not prioritizing you. Right?

Vienna | Sometimes we try to force ourselves into prioritization, right? If I can control you, then I can be the priority. And that's just the illusion of it right is, is that's actually not how we're going to tend to a prioritization wound. Their case in particular is really fascinating. Because Isabelle, the woman, you're talking about the little girl that we were just talking about, too. There was a moment for a period of time in her life where she was the priority, she was the focal point. And then it shifted, and with her partner, Jo, she, they both came over from Spain, for grad school. And for a period of time Isabelle felt like the priority and then something shifted. And so this was a really interesting case, because it wasn't just oh, here's the prioritization wound. It really developed in a very similar way, I am a priority to you, and then all of a sudden, I no longer am, right, there's this, there's this massive shift that takes place in the relationship. And so it was so fascinating to be able to connect to that origin pain from the past. And then to begin understanding that we can't control our way to prioritization, we can't brute force our way we can't make, you know, Jo just respond to text messages within a period of time. And you know, throw anything up against the wall to see what would stick right, it really required us to go back into that origin pain that had never been tended to when Isabelle was a little girl, and to really witness that pain and grieve the pain. So that, again, it wasn't in the driver's seat in the same way it had been, because it was going to push that relationship further and further and further apart. You can't force a person to prioritize you. And even if you successfully force a person to, it will not be something that you trust, because on some level, you really do understand that it's not coming from a genuine, authentic place in the other person, so it never actually heals the wound.

Robin | Yeah. Wow. I love it. So the next one is a trust wound.

Vienna | Yeah.

Robin | And so this, you say when someone you love betrays you, it can cause you to question everything in your world, of course. And so you talk about this is this somebody named Troy, whose mom divorced and she remarried. And his step dad came with kids, so they were a blended family. And no matter what Troy did as a little boy, it was like he was to blame. He wasn't his mom wouldn't stick up for him, which I think that is, that's really hard. It's like he was, he was always like, the bad guy or the odd man out, right in the family. And just feeling like, you know, the person who I trust the most is my mom to stand up for me is just not taking my side. And it just it you know, there's different elements to trust. But, you know, you talk about betrayal. You feel betrayed and deceit. Deceit can show up creating a trust wound. Abandonment, right? So, can we talk a little bit about trust wounds?

Vienna | Yeah. I mean, trust, of course, is so nuanced. You know, sometimes again, there's sort of like there might be an outrageous event that takes place that really shakes a relationship with trust. And other times, and I think this is a great example that you're giving. In Troy's case. It's a little bit more subtle. And as you said, right, there was an ending to the relationship. she remarries. He has a stepfather two sons, the stepfather always has loyalty to the two sons and always takes their sides. Troy is the one that's always at fault, but mom never steps in to have Troy's back. And, you know, so a little bit more subtle, but it was a rupture of trust for him. And as you said, if I can't even trust my mom to have my back, who can I trust? Who can I trust? way, as a little boy turns into a man and he's presenting with conflict with his partner comes in and is like, you know, my partner doesn't have my back at parties, you never take my side, etc, etc. And you know, sometimes we have repetition, that's just so obvious and you're like, Well, here's the link. And other times it's a little bit more, a little bit more tricky. But, you know, they were playing something out that was so clearly connected to this origin pain, this origin wound with trust, and wanting in Troy wanting his partner to just side with him have his back, agree with him, even when Troy was behaving, or say, behaving in certain ways or saying

Robin | And his partner was like, I'm not gonna stand up for you in that case, because you were not in the right.

Vienna | Right. But there's also another great example. I talked about her in the beginning of the book. This woman was coming in, and she was trying to decide whether or not to continue on with a relationship. It was getting to the point of engagement.

Robin | Yes. With Clyde.

Vienna | With Clyde, sweet Clyde, right. And she was saying, you know, Clyde is this incredible, man, there's nothing wrong. But I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And I start poking around. Well, when has the shoe dropped? When has the other shoe dropped before? Has it dropped in other romantic relationships? Has it dropped in family of origin? It is she's like really protective. No, I don't know why you want to go there. I don't know why you want to explore that. And then eventually, in our therapy, we come to find out. And she was someone who presents, my family was amazing. I really had a great childhood. I don't think you're going to find anything there. And finally, we get to this point where she reveals to me the first time that she's ever spoken this out loud to anyone that when she was a teenager, she had come across emails between her father and some woman who wasn't her mother. And he had been having an affair for a really long time. And it shattered this image that she held of her father, this man who she thought was, you know, he was home every night by a certain time always eating dinner with his family presented loving everyone and just being this wonderful human. And she could not understand how this had happened. And so this other shoe dropping really originated from here's my father, I hold him on this pedestal. Here's the family, I think I have they had kept an a secret from the entire family. She had never shared this with anyone, it was almost like she had absorbed it as if nothing had happened because she needed to continue on.

Robin | And he also said to her, we cannot tell your mom or your sister.

Yeah, please don't tell them.

Robin | This is a secret, you have to keep it otherwise the family will fall apart, What a thing to put on a child.

Vienna | So much to put on a child. And it really, she had never said it out loud until she had said it to me. And we were then able to see that this fear, right that something was going to go wrong, that she was going to find something out about Clyde and really any previous relationships she had been in, besides Clyde, she would always terminate relationships before they got to that point. And that was her way of protecting herself from the fear of having her trust be shattered yet again. But she had no clue that this is what was running her decisions as it pertained to her relationships. Right, and so it's just, it's just fascinating work. You know, I love my job, I love this work. I think it's so important. Again, as we said at the beginning, you know, this isn't meant to go hang out in your childhood for years on end. But it is to say we have to take a peek because there's stuff that has happened that plays some type of role in the way that we operate today, the patterns that we get into the types of fights that we have the things that make us reactive, right, there's lots of short tale signs that we might have an origin wound. But if we can just get curious. And I think, you know, I use a lot of people's stories in the book, as well as my own.

Robin | I like that.

Vienna | Yeah, I think storytelling is such a beautiful way to land something for others because sometimes it's easier to see ourselves in someone else first than it is to just do a full analysis of ourselves. And so I love the storytelling in this book because I really think you will find yourself in someone or you'll find your partner in someone and it will resonate with you on some level. But yeah, Troy and this woman are really good examples of the way that a trust wound can show up in our adult relationships and really stir some stuff up.

Robin | Yeah. And so the fifth wound we talked about in the beginning was a safety wound. Yes. And, you know, you know, you say that parents, which is the truth, right parents are meant to protect, respect be attune to advocate for, and set rules and boundaries to maintain your safety. And if you think about all of those examples, if those if those things are missing, you're not going to feel safe. And that's how that wound can absolutely originate.

Vienna | Yeah.

Robin | So then, we talked about all the wounds, and the time is going by so fast. Of course, a lot of the book is about healing the wounds. And so you've got a healing practice, each of the chapters that we saw each of the wounds, you've got a healing practice for diving in, and how to really unearth and then obviously tend to and, and work on healing these wounds. And so, number one is naming the wound, identifying which wounds you have, right?

Vienna | Yeah, exactly naming, identifying what the wound is for you. For some of us, it might just be like, Yeah, I have a worthiness wound for some others, you might feel like you get even more specific with the wound, you might use more language to describe that wound. Naming and you started off this way. I've identified some of my wounds. Right?

Robin | You know what one of mine was Vienna? Because I was like, I wrote them down in my book with a highlighter too. I felt like I was not able, I wanted, something I wanted it that I didn't not get at a certain time of my life was I just wanted to be a kid. I felt like I was put in this position where I had to be the grown up in a lot of ways. And like my mom and my dad would both put me in the middle of their conflict. Robin, I need you to talk to your dad about this. Right? So I'd be going over and talking to dad about this. Okay, my mom needs this amount of money. We're gonna do that it. Okay. And then my dad would say, Okay, well, you tell your mom this. Okay, there I go back over here. And I'm talking to my mom about what my dad just said, yeah. Like, mediator? Are you kidding me right now? Like, you guys should be hiring a mediator.

Vienna | Right, not your child.

Robin | It's just ike, that's not cool.

Vienna | But that's it, right? Like you what you needed was not prioritized.

Robin | I identified it. I'm like, prioritization wound.

Vienna | Yeah. I know.

Robin | And I know, yeah. And then I thought about how my husband and I are, you know, in our conflicts now that I've read this book, and I'm working through it and really, really thinking about it. I'm like, and then one of the tools that you you teach is like, using words to describe what you're thinking, what you're feeling right there. What is it? Like, narration?

Vienna | Narrating the experience. Yeah.

Robin | So right now, I'm not feeling prioritized in this way, right?

Vienna | Yes.

Robin | And I'm realizing that that's actually where it's coming from. Like, that is like the underlying feeling is like, I'm not feeling that I'm a priority in this example. Right. And so I'm having to go back to Okay, Robin, but this is from your childhood, this is where this is coming from. And in some ways, I'm blowing it out of proportion. That's another thing that people do. It's like, your reaction is not aligned with the experience that you're having. Right? So you, you can tend to blow things out of proportion, because it's not related to exactly the experience you're having is related to the wound that you

Vienna | All the experiences you've had up to this date. Right.

Robin | Yeah.

Vienna | Which makes it makes sense when we have that context? But without that context, it can feel really disarming and confusing to the other person. It's, you know, there's just so we can name it to the listener, right, is that, yeah, there's naming and identifying the wound, we then move into witnessing that. So for me, and you'll see this in the origin healing practice that I offer, is that there's a real need to witness the pain, to not bypass it to not avoid our way through it to not find ways to dismiss it, or intellectualize it or invalidate it, right? Many of the things that we talked about earlier, right to actually witness the pain, we can do that for ourselves. And I highly, highly, highly recommend that. Or we can also have, you know, partners or friends or just trusted people in our corner, do some of that witnessing. So we get deep into that in the book and really understanding what that looks like. And then the next step is the grieving process, right, which is really allowing ourselves to feel deeply for the loss that took place, right, whether it's the loss of not feeling worthy or prioritized, for example, or whether it's the loss of the self that had to adapt or adjust ourselves in order to try to get what it is that we wanted or needed at that point, and really just tending to those emotions, letting them take up space. And then the fourth step is the pivot, which is about really laying down the new track, right to not let our wounds drive the show, to not let our wounds take control, always and forever, right? The pivot is like, Okay, I'm taking the wheel back, right? And I am going to exactly like you said, I'm going to have a different conversation with my husband about what's happening, right, instead of just being in conflict, I'm actually going to be able to say, you know, I don't feel prioritized right now. And you know, why this work is so important. And especially for for relationships, right, is that when we can understand each other's origin pain and stories, a lot more makes sense, right? So instead of getting looped in the conflict, right, you're able to tell your partner, you know, I was always a kid who was in between my parents, they were constantly asking me to do things for the other person, and, you know, be the mediator when I didn't want to be the mediator, and it robbed me of the experience that I wanted to have. And no one cared enough. No, everybody else's stuff was more important than seeing that Robin didn't want to be here that Robin didn't want to do this. That Robin just wanted to be a kid and have freedom and ease in her life. Right. And so when X, Y, and Z happens in our relationship, oof, yeah, right, it's like, I feel that that's the sensation that comes up, I want to feel like my experience is important to you and matters to you, and that you can prioritize that sometimes, right? And to begin to have that conversation, right, instead of the same old conflicts that we might get into. And, you know, in the book, I talk about how the unhealed origin wounds will show up in the dysfunction around, you know, conflict or, you know, communication falling down, or boundaries, right, those are the three main ways that I, you know, bring it to life. And I love those chapters, I think those chapters are so powerful to see it play out in real life scenarios of like, right, if I don't tend to this, if I leave this wound, unresolved, here's the way it's has a chance to play out in conflict in setting or not setting a boundary in, you know, different types of communication that we might engage in. And yeah, I found I find that section to be really powerful stuff.

Robin | I love it. And, you know, you talk, you talk about this many times throughout the book about and in the end too, around, you know, making changes in ourselves and our relationships. But also, this is generational change. Because if you, you know, it's like our parents wounds were passed down to us, which we if unhealed will pass down to our children, and on and on. And so there's like this bigger responsibility. It's, I just think this is why we're in this business, this why we do what we do is all about relationships, and how very, very, very important they are in our lives. It's such an incredible book, and I've just, I've so loved our time together, Vienna, and I know, everybody has to get a copy. Because the healing work is really in the practice that you teach. And the step by step and you have, you have a very, very doable, powerful healing practice that you can that people can implement to get through, to go through it. I feel like I'm at the very beginning stages of being like, Okay, I'm naming I'm witnessing and might be in the grieving stage right now. [both laugh]

Vienna | You're doing it bit by bit, and you'll come into contact with more and more and more I always do every time I go back and be like, Okay, what was my childhood, like, you know, it's like, I'm like, Ah, there's the thing, or oh, here's, I didn't realize this before. And I think that's the gift, you know, in some ways, quote, unquote, the gift of life. We're like, cool gift. Thanks a lot, life. But right this gift, as we continue to move through our lives, right, we come into contact with new things over and over and over again. And those things, they will direct us back to the origin wounds. And if you're willing to look right, if you're willing to notice, ooh, I had a reaction there. Ooh, I blew some things out of proportion. Oh, I can give advice to people, but I can't implement it or take it myself. Right. It's like, you start to notice some of these things, then the antennas come out. Right? You must get curious to be like, Okay, what is familiar about this? Right? And working backwards into that space, right? Like what's actually happening here that's needing tending to because I'm having a response to something that is letting me know that something else wants my attention.

Robin | That's right. The trigger. Yeah, it's really is like this. This flag, you say put it, that flag in the sand. This is where we need to focus right now. We need to stay here and tend to this beautiful? Well, the title of your book, The Origins Of You, you say, the subtitle is, The Origins Of You will teach you how to break family patterns and help you liberate the way you live and love. And I do believe that that is the powerful work that you're doing Vienna and I thank you for your time and thank you for the work you're doing.

Vienna | Thank you, Robin. So nice to be in conversation with you.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey