Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 3 Episode #6 with Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh | Transcript

22.02.23

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hello and welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today I am joined by Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh. Dr. Sara is a world renowned social psychologist who specializes in sexuality and relationships. She has worked across more than 40 countries with individuals and couples who seek to create meaningful relationships. Dr. Sara is helping to redefine our perspective on love by teaching an emergent love model. She believes we can all cultivate emergent love through consistent, continuous and completely intentional efforts. Today we talk about the pillars of strong relationships, and key ingredients necessary for a partnership to thrive. Dr. Sara believes we all deserve happy and thriving relationships. And her mission is to help people achieve them. Enjoy.

Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships and they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love...

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. I am so happy to be joined by our guest today. Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh, it's so nice to see you, Sara.

Dr. Sara | Yeah, likewise. Nice to be here and be with you.

Robin Ducharme |This has been a long time coming. I have been following your work and learning from you. And we have a mutual friend who we've worked with before, Dr. Alexandra Solomon. And I know you've worked with her in different capacities. So anyways, I just want to say that I'm just so happy to be joined by you today and learn from you. And I know that our guests are going to be, are gonna get a lot from this conversation.

Dr. Sara | Absolutely, I'm here and let's make love. [both laugh]

Robin Ducharme |So Sara I know that you are, you know, you are so incredibly passionate about helping people have healthy relationships. And can you go back to how you actually came into the field of relationships, I love the story you share, I hope you will share this story about your parents, and how they really inspired you growing up and just watching them as an example of a couple that were like engaged with each other on a daily basis.

Dr. Sara | Yes, well, um, we all have different ways that we get motivated, right? So some of us are running away from pain, and some of us are running toward pleasure. So these are the binary model that has been a this has been discussed in so many different ways, like a dual control model or dual motivational model so many different ways. But for me, to be honest parts of my parents' relationships were what they did in everyday life, which was interesting because when they fought, they fought. And they were both very passionate, you know what I call like a stallion model of fighting that they are going at each other. But then when they were together was really interesting to me. And I often questioned both of them, like why are you still together? Really? And then I could really connect this little daily chores like daily rituals that they had with each other. And then little by little I understood how it works. So that love that you never fight, you never have a disagreement. You're always Lovey Dovey, when I come through the door, your heart disappears or melts or you know, whatever that we call it. That was not the actual love with four kids. By the way. The actual love was after we all had dinner as a family, which was a must, unless, you know like an exception happened. So we all had dinner together and then after dinner kids went, you know, away we did our own thing. And then our parents would go to a corner of a specific place of our you know, living room and they would have tea with each other. Sometimes they played backgammon with each other and they shared about their days and what was happening. And through that I never realized such an important part of their bonding through all of these years with each other Yeah, so that was the piece that I took away as the pleasurable part. That's what I wanted somebody that I still enjoyed after all these years to play with, to laugh with, even to fight with, you know, so all of that. But then on the other side of it, there were so many relationships around us. And around me specifically, that didn't work. And I was always fascinated, what is it that makes it work? What is it that makes it bloom? Back to the name of your event. You know what is it that is going to make them thrive or just survive? So I was always fascinated with these human connections, especially in an intimate environment.

Robin |To make them thrive versus survive.

Dr. Sara | Yeah.

Robin |Yeah. And you do say that everyone, you don't use the word lightly "deserve" Everyone deserves a thriving relationship.

Dr. Sara | Yes.

Robin |A healthy, thriving relationship. Yeah, I believe that too. I really do. So you so tell us about your, your practice your day to day. Because you do many things. You're an author, you're a speaker, you are a social scientist, you're doing, you're studying, you're also seeing people in your office. Correct? You're a therapist. And so can you tell us about you know, the breadth of your work and what you're doing day to day? And then the type of clients that you're seeing,

Dr. Sara | Right. Robin, for the longest time, I actually dreaded when people asked me that question, or even asked me to send them their, you know, my resume or CV or because it's so confusing. But then after a while, I realized hang on a minute, I can actually explain what I do. In very simple terms. I help people connect in a way that they could cultivate meaningful relationships from the bedroom as a psychosexual therapy, sexuality educator, you know, seeing that vulnerable side of people, and then to the kitchen, that you know, the day to day stuff and parenthood and coupledom to the boardroom, because I'm an adviser to United Nations, to multiple companies. So that's how I can describe it as what I do. And that describes what happens in my weekly life, like, you know, as a consultant, as a, you know, couples counselor, as a psychosexual therapist, and author, and I do research.

Robin |Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I'm hoping we're gonna dive into all of that. So can you please tell us and you know, really, what, really what I wanted to get to today is something that you teach, and you're talking about, and you help people understand, I've heard you say, that, we really have to learn to turn love on its head and just think of love differently in our relationships. So can you please give us your definition of love?

Dr. Sara | Absolutely. Love is something that is cultivated and that's based on everyday effort that we put in place intentionally and on the things that matter because many people come to me exhausted. They think they gave it all they think they are doing all they can and still they're heartbroken. Yes. So I think How about because, you know, Einstein said, you cannot solve the problem with the same frame of mind that created it, we have to see the world anew, right? So if you really go back, that was actually the motto that motivated my PhD thesis, the whole PhD thesis was based on that, to look at things from an epistemological perspective, so that we are going to look at it from different aspects, right. So because love has been described by so many different people in the most wonderful way from the place that they view it. Right. So how about we actually take ourselves and our anecdotes out of it, and make it evidence-informed? Yes. And to the credit, my wonderful colleagues, Dr. Gottmans, you know, they were actually the few people, the beginning of the few people who said, Hang on a minute, actually, there's a science behind this, this is not just Hokey Pokey, and just roll the dice and see what will happen, right. And then prior to that, we have thinkers like Erich Fromm, who talks about love as a verb as a commitment. So we have it is not like you know, something. So these have been the things that have been studied and said, what I'm bringing to the table is that the love that we are defining is mainly arrows is based on the physical connection that we feel with somebody or physical chemistry that we feel with somebody. And that is not the whole story. That is not what needs to happen for a couple to thrive. That is the whole story that I would like to present here. Like when I say turning love on its head, instead of creating heartbreaks, let's give your heart a break.

Robin |Oh, I like that.

Dr. Sara | And, right, and then all of these thinking that I have, obviously as a social psychology's, I see couples. So that's how it was formed. And three forms of research that took us 10 years to put together, as well as systems thinking. Like, if you look at systems thinking. So he talks about love as an emergent entity. And that was so inspiring to me. So instead of love is all we need, the rest will follow, the rest is in place, and love will emerge. That's what I call emergent love.

Robin |Emergent love. What I thought we would do is go through a few myths that people have, right? Around love. Like, for instance, you talk about, you know, people just have this idea that it's so chemistry is just so incredibly important. And having those butterflies, it's just like I just want to get, first of all, I want that when I first meet somebody. And if they're not there, it's like big trouble. And if you're with somebody for a long time, you're like, I just want to get back to those feelings. I want those butterflies again. So it's like two different experiences that we're looking for first dating somebody wanting them and then you're with somebody a long time and you want them. So can we just go through that about butterflies?

Dr. Sara | Absolutely. So butterflies is what, the feeling of butterflies is a little bit of a kind of nervousness. But sometimes that nervousness is okay is almost giggly nervousness. And sometimes it's bothersome, right. So, if you just peel back a little bit from the social sphere and relational sphere and think about it from the neurobiological perspective and neurophysiological perspective, when something gives you that feeling, it means that something agitated your nervous system, what it means is not necessarily a positive thing, not necessarily a negative thing. But because we are at the presence of a person that we feel like they need to really tickle us a certain way, then we actually mistaken that with the sexual arousal that we might feel with somebody. And imagine that that butterfly is actually if it's sexual arousal, then are you really going to base your relationship on sexual arousal? Up to you if you want to do it, but then don't come to me and say that, you know, I have that feeling. And it really breaks my heart. It really does. Because they come after 16 years, was that it? You know, like, was that it, like, for example, when they come? They're like, Well, I was misled, I was betrayed by the whole idea of love, you know that, that piece of it really bothers me. And to your point about getting that butterfly back, after a period of time when people feel that, you know, arousal, and even sexual chemistry with one another. It's abnormal for you to to keep that because it's like a constant state of race. That's one agitation around somebody. The other thing is, can you really tickle yourself and laugh?

Robin |That's true, it's really hard to do. You can't.

Dr. Sara | Right, when you are regulated, co-regulated very much co-regulated with somebody. That's what people talk about when they say, well, we lost it. You know, because the, it's impossible for you to be able to really view that person unless you really follow this emergent love perspective, at least I'm absolutely biased. And then you really keep your individual nervous system separately enough, give yourself enough separateness, to be able to nurture that third entity and then that and then that chemistry that we are talking about that needs to lead to attraction, and then attraction to intimacy Other than that, we're just fighting against something that is not even real. It's an illusion.

Robin |So you say that we are not living our relationships, most of the time, we're doing our relationships. So what does that mean? Can you explain that to to us?

Dr. Sara | The best way I can explain I need to do is when people come to me and say, teach me how to be socially engaging, teach me how to shake hands very firmly and you know, professionally or intimately, you know, whatever. And I say, Well, I can teach you the doing. However, if your state of being is nervous, you can't just fake certain things, right? If your state of being is not accompanying that gesture, then you are going to shake hands beautifully, but with a sweaty hand that is drippy dropping, is that what you want?

Robin |So it's being present, and being way more engaged with what's going on and the person you're with, rather than going through the motions.

Dr. Sara | Exactly. And sometimes you need to go through the motions, but you need to also have that state of presence, as you said. So being versus doing look at our lives. Every morning, when I wake up, I have a list of things to do. Even my meditation is do meditation Sara, you know? So it's like dictated doing is like, you know, like getting engaged without a time to really sit back and be present to see what comes what is the flow. Many people talk about relationships at nauseam, and then when I look at the content is not going to go anywhere. You know, so that is it.

Robin |And so you did you did just talk about how you know, you have lived in how many countries have you lived in Dr. Sara, you've lived in so many countries. When I I learned that about you and just listened to you and watched you, what it's been something like 30 countries or something extraordinary?

Dr. Sara | Well, I live about four countries that I had practices in, yes, but my work, actually I stayed there for a period of time to work 41 countries.

Robin |Wow, that's incredible. And in all those places, I mean, you've studied couples, and relationships. And so you've analyzed over 350 individuals and their relationships. And this has formed the basis of your work. And what you have said is there are foundations and themes that emerged from your analysis that are necessary for good relationships. And these have formed your emerging love model. Correct?

Dr. Sara | Yes.

Robin |So can you go through this with us the emerging themes and foundations that really are like, the foundations, the pillars of a healthy relationship?

Dr. Sara | Sure. So one of the things is for the research, there were multiple pieces of research that went into each other that is going to be discussed, kind of in Love By Design. But let's say for example, that was the emergent love that was with 312 couples that were my couples. That, you know, I worked with, and you know, I had the pleasure to witness their journey over the years. And after that, we did a study with the sample representative of the US couples, 159 couples. And then we did individual research with individuals who were members of those thriving coupledom's and then we validated them. So we went through multiple iterations of the research to get to where we are right now. Now, the pillars that we have, some of them are the fundamentals for individuals who would like to end up in thriving relationship, right, there are qualities that the person should have. There are other things that are dyadic, between the two of them as a couple they need to have. And the most important part of it all of them are important, but the most part, important part are those ingredients that need to be intertwined and inconsistent base is being generated by each individual in a couple of them to make sure that that emergent love doesn't die. So now, the pillars: one of them is attraction. And one of those models of attraction is physical attraction. The other one is compassion and empathy. And I have a separate definition for them because we don't need them both at all times, and a couple of them. And then the other one is shared vision that the couple should have respect and trust and commitment that they need to have. Again, these are the pillars that were talked about by many different colleagues over time, however, the angle that I'm bringing is a little bit different because some people who did the research, they were not practitioners, some people were practitioners were not researchers. So I'm hoping that we bring all of it together and make sense all of you know, from all of it together. So that when people have this book, this is like the book, that they go through it and then make sense of it for themselves. So I don't want them to become again relationship doing, I want them to be in their desired relationships. So a personal, you know, personal level interpretation is allowed too.

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Robin |So, let's talk about chemistry, chemistry, which is, uh, we touched on it a little bit, but this is something that people really focus on, right, especially if you're dating. And if you're in a relationship, and you're like, we just don't have it anymore, right. So you say that sexual compatibility cannot be created, but sexual harmony can. Can you explain the difference? And how does somebody create sexual harmony?

Dr. Sara | Right. So sexual chemistry versus sexual harmony, right?

Robin |Right. Okay. So sexual chemistry cannot be created, but sexual harmony can?

Dr. Sara | Yes, yes. So sexual chemistry has, it has an evolutionary basis based on our knowledge to database and scientific data, right. So you meet somebody, and based on the genetic variation that you carry, each of you, you are going to be attracted to a person not attracted like that's physical attraction. sexual chemistry is usually with a person who is not too similar to you so that you can produce healthier babies with better immune systems, and have a better chance to live basically, in this world, right. So that is the sexual chemistry, the basis for sexual chemistry. However, I differentiate that with sexual attraction, which is mostly socially constructed, and we can go in depth in that and sexual harmony, sexual harmony, could be amongst people who first of all had this sexual chemistry or not, they just chose, you know, they were just sexually attracted to one another without the chemistry, right. So meaning that when you look at somebody without those butterflies, and oh, my god, I can't get my hands off of you and situation. But I feel like you know, like, oh, I want to be with this person, I want to kiss them, I want to be with them, I want to have sex with them. Right. So that's sexual attraction. And then from that, they are moving forward to learn about each other, about themselves, hopefully, before even being in that situation. And they're going to learn about themselves within the coupledom too. Because every coupledom has, has a dance, you know, you might be sexually different with this person and that person, right. As they're doing this as they're learning and relearning each other, then that could create sexual harmony. That is attunement, that is full presence for one another and with one another. That is what I'm talking about when I say the differentiation between sexual chemistry and harmony. And I remember the first time I spoke about this was about 18 years ago at Big Think. And the topic of our conversation was going to be something else. And the producer liked it so much. Oh, my God, and they filmed that part instead of the actual part that they wanted to.

Robin |Yeah. Well, everybody loves talking about sex, right? It's something that, to learn about it and just be like, how can we really have really good sex lives? Who wouldn't want that right? And so, and something that you do talk about, which is creating novelty in your relationship, if you've lost if you really have lost that, you know, hot and heavy sex life that you used to have as a new couple, like one way to get that back is through new experiences, doing things that are outside of what you normally do to create that. The newness. Right?

Dr. Sara | Yes. And before that, for everybody who is listening, and who has that fire still, like the sexual chemistry and hot sex, da-da-da, before that dies, which it will, I'm afraid. So before that dies, just make sure that you use that passion to make sure to learn about each other so that you have what it's what it takes for the harmony to be created. While you still like to be hot and sexy and wet with each other, just get together and really educate each other, educate yourself, and then take those mechanics of it, those attunements of it so that you can bank on later on when that spontaneous sexual desire is not there anymore. Right.

Robin |Oh, I love that. That's fantastic. That's great. So the next pillar that I wanted to talk about, too, is shared vision. So this would this is a really important one, right? So what are some when you're working with a couple, or even just let's say somebody's looking, they're like, Okay, I want to make sure that I want to attract somebody that has my shared vision, what does that mean exactly? Like what pieces would go into a shared vision? Because there's a lot of things that you would want to share with your partner to make sure that you're going in the same direction, right? And why this is so important.

Dr. Sara | Yes. So for shared vision, I would say first, the person needs to have a vision for their life. I'm not talking about figuring it out completely. But you need to know what are your non negotiables. And I'll give you an example, for shared vision, there are certain categories that I invite people to look at. But just off the top of the list, think about this. I had this beautiful couple coming to me. And then as we are talking, I asked the, this is a heterosexual couple, you know, man and a woman and then, you know, so as we were talking, I said, Well, where are you going in 5 years, 10 years? And the gentleman said, Well, you know, I really would like to live in a high rise in the middle of Paris. And this is a client that I saw, you know, the couple in London. And then the lady on the other side of it said, Well, I actually more see myself and the ranch in Idaho. In the ranch, Idaho, I would love to have horses. And I just looked at them and said, and you will be still together. That would be wonderful. So what do you think about this coupledom. And this is a couple that I consulted pre maritally. They just wanted to look forward and they came to me to see if they are you know, kind of having what it takes. And then I said, Well, it's not unworkable. But you realize the amount of work that you need to put into this. One of you is in a ranch in the United States, one of you in a high rise in Paris. Are you going to share your time with each other like six months here? Six months here? And how does that look like after you have maybe kids? Maybe pets, maybe horses? Maybe you know, families that you're creating? Who is your social circle? Where do you see yourself as your social capital? So that is that is my point with everything that I talk about. You know, in English, you have a term that you say devil is in the detail. I would say love is created in the details. Because you really need to go deeper. It's not enough to say, Oh, lovely. You want to live in a ranch. So how about when we are in our 70s? How about when we have a kid? Continue the conversation. You don't stop there, don't think that, you know, you really need to know more. There's a very good book by again, my colleagues, the. Gottmans, it's called 8 Dates. They have questions actually, as conversation starters, for people. For anybody who is listening, that's a good start for you to go and, you know, get in.

Robin |And your vision when you are, if you are together with somebody, your vision changes, you change, you evolve as a person, and your partner inevitably, inevitably will too. So it's just keeping those conversations going. And when I read this, and listen to you talk about this before, I was reminded of my mom, and she dated this man, who and this is this whole idea like love is not all there is. Like you could love somebody very very much. But it's just like if you're going in separate directions it's just not going to work. And my mom like loves to be on the beach in Mexico and just enjoy the sun. And you know, being with her friends being very social, and she dated a man who owned a farm in the middle of a province in the prairies, like in the middle of nowhere and raising horses and growing lentils. Just like, so. They had this like deep love for each other, and she would spend time on his farm. But then she'd be like, okay, let's go, let's go to Mexico now and have some time on the beach. Like, you know, there were both at that age where and he didn't want to leave. So it's just like, love really wasn't all there was, you know, it's it's more than that. And you have to have you have to be going, want the same things. And that's a big thing.

Dr. Sara | Yes. And actually, you brought up a very important point. Remember how I said my parents did the backgammon and you know, tea sharing and stuff?

Robin |Yeah.

Dr. Sara | Those are the daily check ins. So it's not like, you know, we are sharing our visions with each other once a year. No, in every day and especially in our coupledoms, in our generations. I watch my own things on Instagram, and YouTube and Tiktok. And, you know, whatever my husband does his own thing. So I don't know, every day, I'm exposed to different things, he's exposed to different things. If we fail to share with each other, what kind of a person am I by the end of today? You know, reconnect with each other, then tomorrow comes then tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow. What's going to happen? Drifting apart. And that's one reason for people who split. It's not like, you know, the big things that people think. It's just drifting apart. One day you wait, I don't know you. Right?

Robin |Wow. One of your pillars is compassion and empathy. So, first question, because I've, I've got two questions around this. Why are compassion and empathy, a pillar and a thriving relationship? I understand how important compassion and empathy are to, you know, to have a good relationship with somebody. But I'm just wondering, I would love to hear your thoughts around that. Why it's a pillar. And then we could talk about the difference between them.

Dr. Sara | Absolutely. So I remember the first time that we had this, this conversation was with my friend, Esther, Esther Perel. And so I ended up presenting on these on the sessions, you know, in New York, because many people ask me, because there are so many definitions of this compassion and empathy. If you're not an empathic person, then there's no relationship for you. So we really wanted to address it there and then write compassion means basically, based on my definition of it in a coupledom, is when you feel for a person, and empathy is when you feel with the person. And these are they have their time and place in a coupledom. So that's very important for people to realize, again, there's so many different ways to describe it. And the and to answer your first question as why this is a pillar because that emerged from my research, multi layered research, the first, second, all of that, compassion, and empathy was a part of it.

Robin |Yes. And is it true that somebody can have too much empathy, but not enough compassion?

Dr. Sara | Yes.

Robin |And how does that show up? Can you please do kind of tell us examples of how that shows up in a relationship? How that's not a good thing.

Dr. Sara | Yes. I'll tell you an example that I think brings it home. Imagine that we are a couple, you come to me share something with me that is hurting you. Right? You're angry, you're tired, you're exhausted, whatever, right? The way that I look at it is that you show me that, Sara Look, I'm bleeding, right? Empathy is I'm coming and say that, Oh, you're bleeding. Oh, my God, you're bleeding. I freak out. Or I say I'm bleeding too. And who is helping who? That's empathy. Because you're bleeding, and I'm going to say, Oh, my God, because you're in so much pain, I'm going to cut myself and bleed to that's empathy. For me. That's what I see in couples. Now, compassion, is, are you bleeding? Where's the bandage for you? I first take care of you. And if I'm bleeding, then I will take turn to tell you that you know what Robin I'm bleeding too, then you will get a chance to go and get that band aid for me too. But if you're both bleeding, that's not going to help anyone. And if I want to be a little bit more nerdy about it, is like just neurobiologically thinking, if you're dysregulated, for whatever, whatever reason you come to me, I get dysregulated with you, we are no good. That's emplathy. But if we are, if one of us is able to regulate themselves in that moment of crisis and be compassionate, meaning that keep themselves regulated, you will eventually be regulated because I'm regulated. That's compassion.

Robin |Yes, beautiful. Something that you say over and over. Again, which I just think is just so it's so true. And just something that I think we all have to keep in mind is really how fragile love is, like, you know, just such a very important thing that you know, this idea that you love someone and the rest will follow. Not true. Right? And you say we blame everything on love.

Dr. Sara | Yeah.

Robin |Right. It's just like, Well, no. And I just and I think you really just reminded us too, of the fact that divorces, separations are happening because people have grown apart. It's not because they didn't love each other anymore. They didn't know each other anymore. What a realization that is. Wow. And so this is really what you are teaching. What your new book is about, it's about how love really needs nurturing. It's love. Love is a fragile thing. It has to be tended to your partner your relationship. You say one, can you talk to us about that Sara? How it's like one plus one equals three. And it's not this enmeshment or emergent love, it's we want to go to a place of, sorry, immersion compared to, you tell me. [laughs]

Dr. Sara | I'm actually pretty impressed that you are familiar with the terminology by now. It's like, so the model of love that we are encouraged to do is what? Meeting the person come together spend as much time as possible. And when we are like this, we are in love. So imagine the two circles, intertwining a little bit and then completely fusing, so to speak. That's submerging love, many of the people that I see that are in that stage, they can't breathe, they have affairs, because they're lost, they lost themselves somewhere in the relationship. They want something, something to come out to breathe. That's, that's what submerging love is. What I'm offering to the world, hopefully, is emerging love, meaning that one plus one doesn't equal one, one plus one equals three. So that's what I'm offering that you know, you really keep yourself.

Robin | Yes

Dr. Sara | Not the narcissistic injury that many people impose upon themselves because they think that you know, I have to do only self love. And if I do self love, I cannot love you anymore. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is, you know, like having that individuation with one another. Again, this is a concept that many people talked about. However, one of the things that I'm hoping that people take away from this is what do I do as an individual? What do I need to look at when I'm dating? Or, you know, I'm shaping a relationship? What does it take for couples to cultivate, create and cultivate a thriving relationship? So I would like to bring everything together in one go. And then form this new model of love. And I understand that when people listen to us right now. It's a concept that I'm hoping that people give it a chance with an open mind. Again, going back to Einstien, you need a new frame of mind to accept this. So, I'll give you an example. The first time ever that I presented the results of our research was at Stanford about 10 years ago. After the talk, a woman stood up crying and clapping at the same time. I said, Can you please pass on the mic to her? And then she said, Well, you just ruined everything I believed about love. And where have you been 20 years ago?

Robin | Wow.

Dr. Sara | That was enough to know that this has to come out. This can't be just for the couples who I see in my practice. This has come out.

Robin | Yeah. Well, I'm so glad that you are doing this work. You've been doing it for decades. And now you have a book that's actually going to bring it all together in one place. And you say it's coming out next Valentine's Day?

Dr. Sara | Yes, yes. Yeah.

Robin | Wow. Wonderful. I know, we're gonna be releasing this episode in February of 2023. So it'll be February 2024. And I would love to have you back on to talk about your book when it's really Sara and in the meantime, I know this conversation, I hope gives people some tools and some skills, even just like you said, just to turn our perspectives upside down and for us to look at things from a different way and look at our relationships in a new way. And I have a quote of yours that I wanted to share before we close. So really what you and I think it really does encompass your new paradigm of love and what You say, which I think is just, it is a simple way to look at not simple. But. "Think about when you first committed to each other, the shared vision that you had in mind, but you did not articulate clearly. In order to have emergent love, your efforts must be consistent, continuous, and completely intentional every step of the way. These are aspects of relationships that require work and dedication." And I know that sounds like Oh, that's pretty heavy, but actually, it's not. If you want to have a loving, beautiful nurturing partnership, it takes work and dedication. And I think that is the other piece that really needs we need to hit home on right. It's it's not easy. But the benefits are a beautiful relationship.

Dr. Sara | Absolutely, absolutely.

Robin | So, thank you, Dr. Sara, for being with us today.

Dr. Sara | My pleasure. My absolute pleasure. I hope that your listeners find the love that they desire and deserve. And please, please, please, if anybody's listening to this, one thing to take away is, don't let anybody tell you otherwise. You deserve to be in the loving relationship that you desire.

Robin | Yes, you can have that. Yes. Beautiful. Well, thank you again.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey