Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 3 Episode #7 with John Kim & Vanessa Bennett | Transcript

22.03.02

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin | This is a very special episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm having a conversation with two relationship experts, John Kim and Vanessa Bennett, both therapists and partners and co-authors of their book. It's Not Me, It's You: Break the Blame Cycle. Relationship Better. John and Vanessa dissect their own relationship to help readers figure out theirs. They share real stories of clients they help in their own therapy practices, and also offer us skills for changing unhealthy relationship patterns. I myself have been implementing Vanessa's lessons on mindfulness during hard conversations, and it's made a world of difference in my life. I hope you read their excellent book. Listen to this podcast and learn something new. You can apply in yours. Enjoy.

Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships and they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love...

Hello everyone and welcome to Let's Talk Love. I am so excited to introduce our guests today, who I have been, you know, you and I John have worked together before, um quite a few times with Real Love Ready. John Kim, @theangrytherapist, and his beautiful and so intelligent and smart. Vanessa Bennett, I'm so excited to meet you for the first time.

Vanessa | I know same. I feel like I have!

John | How do you know if she's smart and intelligent yet?

Robin | Well, because I've read, I've been watching her and learning from her on her podcast and reading your book. Are you kidding me? Your wife is so smart. Get out of here. [laughs] So thank you for being with us today. And I really wanted to we're going to be I know you've been on this major book tour, like you said, doing all these podcasts talking about your book. It's Not Me, It's You. I loved your new book. And I hope you're getting just so many accolades and praise for this, this work. How is that going? What's the feedback been?

John | We've gotten nothing, you're actually our first compliment. So thank you for injecting some hope into our careers.

Robin | Well, you know, what I really like about it is the combination of Of course, it's your, you are including stories about your own marriage, your relationships and your past experience in other relationships before you met. And their combination with the work that you're doing as therapists, so you're telling stories about your clients, and how you're helping them in their relationships. And then you've got your practices part, which I think obviously we all need the tools and the skills to do this in our own lives. So I love the combination of the three, and it was just such an enjoyable read too. It's funny, it brings your personalities into it. So I loved your book.

John | Thank you.

Vanessa | Thank you. I like hearing that. I'm always glad when it resonates, you know.

Robin | Yeah. So in the beginning of your book, you talk about how you met. And Vanessa, I loved your manifesting story because you don't often, you know, in relationship books you're not. I mean, I read a lot of books about manifestation. I have, you know, a spiritual, very spiritual practice. And I think about manifesting all the time. I believe I'm like a super manifester. Sometimes it's good, sometimes not so good. You have to be very clear on what you're manifesting. But I really wanted to talk, open up about that Vanessa and just talk about how can you just tell us about how you believe like, you, you manifested. John, you say that in the book. Are you like, you felt like first of all, my first question about around manifesting was, is did you before you met John, did you think Okay, I'm ready for my next relationship. I really want to meet somebody I want this to be possibly, you know, my long term, next long term partnership. Did you think that your mind when you talk about the manifesting because I know you said when you when you knew about him when he came into your kind of universe, you know, you knew you had a knowing, but before the knowing did you...

Vanessa | I don't think that I like, I don't think that I thought, Oh, I'm ready for a relationship. I actually think what happened was I came out of something, maybe six months or so before I met John, that had been pretty traumatic and traumatic only in the sense that it was a real like wake up call for me that I was kind of living out of like projections, like I was in a relationship with a projection of who I thought this person could be. I saw the potential for us. I saw a potential for him. And it was a reality check that I had been kind of living that way. And being in relationship in that way, pretty much my entire life, which I actually think is very common for women to do.

Robin | So common.

Vanessa | And I had just kind of called myself on my bullshit, and I had been kind of done with it. And so I knew that I was ready for somebody who had the emotional tools had the language could have these kind of hard conversations with me. And I remember actually talking to my mom about it, because I was still in grad school at the time to be a therapist. And I remember saying that's it, I'm only dating therapist from now on. And she was like, well, you, I think you're minimizing your dating pool a little bit.

Robin | Isn't that funny that you said that?

Vanessa | Yeah, I'll be single forever then and she was like, Okay, well, let me know how that goes. And, yeah, it just was one of those things where I had said it out loud, like, I was sick of my own bullshit, which I actually think the idea of manifesting, sometimes that's actually where it starts. Like, we have to get sick enough of our own shit for things to really change. It's almost like the universe is like, Well, are you really ready? Like, prove it to me prove that you're really ready to make this change, prove that you're really ready for this thing to come into your life. And then I don't know, I saw John something that he had posted. And there was just something internally in my gut that was like, Oh, and you know, like, I say, in the book, I sent it to my girlfriend, and I just said, I'm gonna date this guy. And she was like, okay, like, What are you talking about? And I was like, I don't know. I just know I'm going to date him.

Robin | Yes.

Vanessa | And here we are.

John | Yeah, I don't think it was like I find him so attractive I want to date him. I think it was like kind of a more of a like a spiritual knowing that we're gonna collide.

Vanessa | Well, don't downplay it. I did think you were hot. I told her that too. But there was a greater knowing than just I think this guy is hot.

Robin | Yes, it wasn't just because you had the beautiful thing about Instagram, and having people's social platforms, especially you did talk about how John was already, he had a huge, huge platform. So you almost feel like you can get to know somebody pretty well, by just listening and watching them, you know, do their work. So that's great. And it's funny, the funny thing is to I find this humorous that John, you said, when you met when you had your, your friend, your joint friend, say like, she's a therapist, you're like, Oh, God, I don't need to date a therapist. And Vanessa's like, I want to date therapists. So it's really.

John | Yeah, we were in very different places. I was, I was trying to be single on purpose, I knew that the next relationship would probably be like, you know, the big one that I invest in. So I was just, I didn't want someone with tools. Like I wanted the other. I wanted.

Robin | Yes, yes. You wanted debauchery and fun!

John | Yeah, I just wanted to get on the ride, you know, and I wasn't looking for, you know, marriage commitment. I mean, ultimately, of course, I would be, but I felt like I had a window of just going crazy. And then of course, when you want something like that the universe throws a wrench and it came in the form of Vanessa.

Robin | Yeah. Yeah. I love it, how there's there is beauty in the universe at all times. And I think sometimes the things we don't think we want are the best things for us.

John | Yes, Yes.

Robin | So you talk about the idea of "the one" being an illness, and it is an illness. And I think even Vanessa, what you just said before about projection, that right there, right, we get into these relationships with people that we're, we just want, like, you're like I can, this person can be this. They're not that. They might be showing up completely honest and real of who they are. But it's like we're projecting. So that's like this. I think it's just social conditioning. Of and you do say it's an illness, right? It's like you say, there's a reason why all Disney movies and with the wedding, they're not going on after the wedding. It's like this picture perfect. And John, I like how you describe it as like the Norman Rockwell painting that we all a lot of us aspire to, from the time that we're little and even into adulthood. But then we don't want to be, we want the picket fence, but we don't want to be like our parents. Like we want to, we don't want to duplicate that. If we come from a broken childhood, or just not the healthiest relationship. You want this, but you don't want that. It's like this, so you're just really not. You're not manifesting what is in your best interest. Can you talk just more about the one being an illness?

John | Yeah, and I love that you're calling it an illness. Or maybe we say that in the book.

Vanessa | We say sickness but

Robin | Sickness, sorry. Yeah.

Vanessa | No, I mean, you know, semantics.

Robin | Same thing.

John | I think a lot of our clients. Yeah, I know, for me that a lot of my clients were unhappy because they haven't found the one. And I know even for me being caught up in you know, I was raised in this world like everyone else. And so always looking for the one and so I realized that you could have many ones in your life and the one is the one that's currently in front of you. And if you don't look at it that way, you're always going to wonder Oh, what if there's different and then you could actually use that as, as Vanessa says, as, as an eject button to not really roll your sleeves up and work on the relationship instead, tell yourself, oh, there's someone else waiting, I gotta find this person. And then you're drifting in your current relationship.

Vanessa | Yeah, or the opposite. I've seen this happen too, which is you're in something where you think it's the one. And you're like, Oh, this is the one or the one. They're the one and then it goes south. And suddenly, you're completely devastated and shattered, and you think that you're never going to find love again, right? So it's like one or the other? And at what point? Do we give ourselves a little bit of a break and realize that to John's point, the one in front of you that you're choosing to love is the one right now. And how powerful that actually is, with that kind of practice of presence, like being present with the person in front of you, versus always in your head thinking about, you know, this magical being that is the one.

Robin | Yes.

John | I think also this generation, we've been very trained for instant gratification. And when things get rough, to always have other options, right, this idea of, of backup plans, and I know with me, because I'm 49, my generation, and even even before, I feel like we, I feel like we worked harder or gave up less, and I think today's generation are very fast to bounce if things are uncomfortable.

Robin | I think that's also, I agree with you, John, I also think, obviously, online dating, it's like this never ending catalogue of people that you can choose from like, oh, I want this type, Oh, no, he's not gonna work, flip or swipe. Right. It's just this whole idea that there's somebody else that and if that first date is a complete, maybe it's a complete disaster. Okay, let's not, but even if you're even slightly a bit curious, but not good enough. Okay, next, right. I'm not back on the app. So it can build up this false sense of endless choice.

John | Yeah.

Robin | So you both came to a point in your life when you woke up. And I think this is common in around that age, right in your 30s, this happens to a lot of us. Can you talk about that time? For both of you, Vanessa, you say. Can you talk about it individually, when you think you kind of woke up? And decided, okay, I no longer want to be operating the way I have been in the past because this is just not working for me.

Vanessa | Yeah, I mean, I think I had, I think I've had multiple breakups in my life. But depending on what the specific behavior or pattern was that I finally got sick enough of that I decided to get to the root of it, right, and try to own my part and make the changes that I needed to make because there's something about the wakeup that happens when you finally own your 100%. And you stop blaming everybody else for the things that have gone wrong in your life, that is actually really powerful. Right? It takes you out of the victim mentality, and it puts you into the driver's seat of your own experience and your own life. And so I think for me, that moment of of wake up, you know, one of them came when I packed some suitcases and moved across the country, and left a relationship behind that I have now been told by other people that it apparently is very mind blowing that at 31 years old, as a woman, I ended an engagement and moved across the country and said, I'm redoing everything. I didn't think about it like that. In the moment. I just knew that this wasn't the trajectory of my life, and I needed to make a change. A very drastic one. But apparently, that's, that's a big deal. That's what I've been told. [laughs]

Robin | It shows a lot, it shows so much courage.

Vanessa | Yeah, I mean, I just think I realized for the first time ever in my life, I had to put myself first. And I had never really done that I've always kind of been the people pleaser. I'm the eldest daughter. So I'm, you know, pretty parentalfide. I'm always the caretaker, things like that. And I just didn't care anymore. I didn't care what other people thought I didn't care. If I was letting people down. I didn't care like it, it finally became apparent to me that I needed to choose myself. And so that was kind of a domino, a first domino. And, you know, over the course of however many months until I met John, I got little mini lessons in having to choose myself, I think. And then I think that John and I meeting was kind of another really big opportunity for me to choose myself again, again, I think the universe keeps going. Okay. Are you really sure? You know, have you really learned the lesson?

Robin | Yes. And it's like you and you think you can learn it. Yeah, I think our learning just gets deeper and deeper. Sometimes. I mean, obviously, it doesn't just instantly you have to ingrain the learning. It has to be like, part of you. Like I know I have to change this but then how do I do that? It's like through process.

John | You know, I'll just say something about the choosing yourself because I know it's very common. I think for someone like Vanessa who grew up fasten had to put others before her. Of course, choosing herself is the prescription. Right, that's going to be the first domino. But then after that, I think when you get into a relationship, at least for me, I think choosing yourself gets the plane to be stable. And then when you choose to love someone, I like the idea that I'm choosing us, there's something about choosing us, that makes me feel like now I'm fighting for something bigger than me. So you know, the whole, I understand, you should always choose yourself. But I think the next level is okay, I have chosen myself, I'm pretty stable. I like where I'm at. I've got this plate spinning. Now I want to choose us. And when I think about us, now, you know, I check my ego, Icheck what's for the greater good. Now it's no longer about me, I feel like if you're just focusing on choosing yourself when you're in a relationship, and that's the only gear it could, it could actually backfire. It could be not only two individual people, but two individual people drifting. Does that make sense?

Robin | It makes complete sense to me. And I think that this is where, you know, at least in my world with real already, and I'm sure this is where you're at with your relationship, because you write about it, and you're teaching it. And I think I think that you're encountering people in relationships in your practice, that are really trying to learn this part of it. That's where we're at is because, you know, I believe that I've had self love and you know, I know how to care for myself. I know like when I'm faltering. I'm like, I'm going off the rails here. I need to like get back to the gym, I need to be, you know, eating better. I need to be sleeping better. Like I know how to take care of myself really well. But when I when I'm really having a hard time with my husband, my partner, I'm like, Okay, I need to get out of my ego, Myself. Myself part. And this is about us. It's about we, not me. Right. And I think that that is a new framework, a bigger framework.

John | Also with a child. With a child does that, how does that impact? Because I know that you know,

Robin | Oh yes, we've got three kids. So two from a different marriage. But we have three, there's five of us in our family. This is nothing little to be messing with. You have to, it's all about us. Right? Yeah. You can be narcissistic, if you're always thinking about yourself, and how am I doing? And you can, I think we can get lost in that.

John | Yes.

Robin | So can we talk about when you when you first started dating, and I think that and I really like this idea about getting past the breakers because this is where, you know, you say I love this analogy. Because I get it right. It's funny, I just got back from Maui a couple of weeks ago, and there's a beach there McKenna beach. And it's dangerous. I mean, you literally have to dive in. And you have to get past those breakers, if you think you're gonna, if you're gonna have a good time at that beach, or in the water. But I mean, a lot of people aren't willing to get past those breakers in relationship. But I really wanted for you to share your experience in the first few months of dating and how you really did come up against, in each of you, what you really had to face like, John, you wanted to run? Right? You were like, Oh, I don't know if Vanessa is the one and Vanessa, you were dealing with? Can you just go through that with us? Please share that, because I think a lot of people can relate.

John | It's not that I wanted to run. I was conflicted. I was confused. And then of course that showed up in some ambivalence. And then her feelings.

Robin | Yes.

Vanessa | Yeah. And I think, you know, for me, I think the lack of safety was something that I was very familiar with. And again, here I am on the heels of really trying to break old habits and patterns and do things differently. And I think I had been so in love with projections of people in the past that I had overridden my internal sense of this feels safe to me, this feels right. And this feels honest, right. And I was very clear that while I was in this, and I was committed to seeing where this went, I was also highly committed to myself. And I was not going to allow myself to pretend that I felt safe when I didn't, or pretend that I felt chosen when I didn't. Right, because I'd done a lot of pretending in my life up to that point. And so, you know, this idea of me ultimately having to choose myself. I mean, it was in that moment with him a few months in where I just said, I choose me, like, I know that this is good. I know that this could be great, but I'm not going to beg you. I'm not going to try to pretend, I'm not going to try to convince you, right. And so I think you know, a lot of my clients I mean, a lot of a lot of women in particular, do a lot of attempting to convince, right? Like again, we're very in love with the idea we're very in love with the potential and so we tried to convince or try to drag somebody along into our vision. And I'd been down that road, I saw what it looked like and what it felt like. And so I just said to him, like, with love, you make the choice because I am not doing this anymore and I gave a little bit of an ultimatum. I mean, I think I was it was pretty clear that I was done in that moment. But I think that was John for you, maybe a point where you decided that you wanted to see where it went?

John | Yeah, I think what came up for me was I realized, I was loving with my past. And we talked about this in the book, meaning comparing Vanessa to exes. She's obviously different. Everyone's different. So instead of seeing beauty in the contrast, me taking the contrast putting a black light over it and saying, Oh, we're different. I don't know if this is going to work. So of course, I was attracted to her things on paper made sense. But it was a combination of that. And also me being in that little window where I wanted to debauchery. And I felt like I was getting older. I was like what 45?

Vanessa | Something like that.

John | Yeah, I was the college kid at the high school party, you know, and I was like, I don't want anyone to know. I want to go have a threesome, I want to wake up with someone, you know, [Vanessa laughs] like, Vanessa has all these exciting stories from when she was in her 20s that I kind of got envious of. I mean, everyone does. But I was always in a relationship. So I didn't get to have my recess. Right. And so I think part of it was that wanting that recess, and then part of it was loving with my past,

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Robin | So okay, so John, you used the word ambivalence. And this was a lesson for me when I read this in your book, and how it can be such a killer in a relationship, but I don't think ambivalence has talked about a lot.

John | Yeah.

Robin | Can you go through how that shows up? And really what that means and how... when I read that I was like, Oh, wow, that is true.

John | Yes.

Robin | But I don't think we really talked about it. So can you teach us about ambivalence and how that can be so detrimental to relationships?

John | Do you want to talk about the

Vanessa | Why don't you talk about what the what the actual kind of manifestation of the behavior is, and then I can talk about what it feels like?

John | Yeah, it feels like a lukewarm handshake with no eye contact. And I think ambivalence.

Robin | Oh, yeah.

John | Doesn't make you trust the person, obviously. But I also want to say that when you're in a relationship, it goes up and down, right? I see relationships as a living breathing thing. I don't see it as like, oh, I swim past the breakers. We're working stuff out. Now it's on. it's 110 every day. No, it's not like that. So ambivalence, I think, can fluctuate, but it's constant ambivalence. If ambivalence is the only gear you're in. People are gonna start feeling unsafe, undesired, unloved, unseen. And of course, that's a giant crowbar, right? And so you really have to make a decision, am I going to lean forward and try to build something or respect the person and let the person be free? Let the person find someone who isn't ambivalent.

Vanessa | Yeah. And I will say too, the word ambivalence was and still is huge. But I also find that the way that ambivalence shows up for a lot of clients is in congruence. Right? So words and actions not aligning, and I think a lot of people can relate to that feeling. And so many times I work with people who say to me, you know, well, in the very beginning their words, and their actions didn't align, and I kept moving forward. And now, you know, however many months down the road, something happens that blows up, and they're beating themselves up. And so a lot of the work I'm doing with clients is to start to ask the question of, why is it that we accept ambivalence? Why is it that we accept incongruent behavior? Right? And so I think, for me, again, I had hit a point where I was very aware of that I was very aware of how often I had taken kind of the breadcrumbs in relationships. And it just wasn't enough to feed me anymore. And I wanted congruence, I wanted somebody to not be ambivalent, but to be sure, and not sure again, like you're "the one" but sure that like in this moment, and John and I had multiple interesting conversations where he would say to me, how do you know? But how do you know? And I would say, I don't know. I don't know that you're the one but I know that in this moment I'm enjoying myself, I know that I'm this moment, I want to see you again. I know that in this moment, I'm having fun. Like, for me, that feels like enough. I'm not thinking about 10 years down the road, right? And I think a lot of us again, give into that idea of like, what could be, and it takes us out of what is happening right now. Because if you're really present with right now, and things are incongruent, then you have to be honest with yourself and say, what does that feel like? What does it feel like to have somebody be ambivalent? And if it feels like shit, and you're doing it anyway? That's kind of on you.

Robin | Yes. Right.

John | Robin, I was I was 45, I needed the ring. I needed the promise. I was seeing white in my hair.

Vanessa | He was all the single ladies. [sings "All the single ladies"]

John | You know why, you know, you know, when Vanessa was saying, why do people say when people are in ambivalence? The reason is, because it's not a no, it's a maybe,

Robin | You don't want to be a a maybe.

John | A lot of younger people would prefer maybe over a yes, there's more excitement. There's more chasing, there's more, you know, all of that.

Robin | Or the other would be like having a maybe instead of a no.

Vanessa | That's it. I think it's more of that, Robin. I think you're right. I think I think especially again, because we've been socialized as women to believe that we are of lesser value, if we are single than if we're partnered, that we will take any breadcrumb we can get as long as that means there's a potential for partnership. And so women will take a maybe over a no, versus standing in their own power and saying I want a yes or a nothing. Right. And again, it's not to say you have to say I'm the one and we're gonna be together forever. But you're either in this or you're not shit or get off the pot because I choose me. I know my worth. And my worth is not a maybe. My worth is not a breadcrumb. That's not enough for me. And it shouldn't be for anybody actually.

John | Can we cue the Miley Cyrus song?

Vanessa | Yeah. [sings "I can buy my flowers"]

Robin | Wow, I didn't realize that that was and then my daughter told me that it was her like going back to his song and or what? Anyways, that was very, very smart, too. Well, I was like, Ooh, that's a good one.

John | Smart, passive aggressive.

[everyone laughs]

Robin | All of it. All of it in one.

Vanessa | I'm here for it.

Robin | Witty. Let's go with that.

John | Yeah. Speaking of flowers. When Vanessa came to me said, Let's take two weeks off, you make a decision. I bought her flowers. I remember I came back to her apartment with the flowers. And she said I buy my own flowers. No she didn't. [laughs]

Robin | You thought she was there to break up with you but really it worked out. That's great. So let's talk about the breakers. When things get hard. These are the things that make you want to walk away because they take work individually and as a team. And you say love doesn't actually start until things get hard. I totally agree with that. Love happens when you swim past the breakers. So how do you know what's difference between a breaker and a red flag?

John | I think breaker is when you see the 360 of the person right? A lot a lot of this happens when you move in with someone and you see oh, you know, we call it the dirty socks on the floor. The way they you know are are messy or not messy or whatever it is right and so seeing not the cardboard cutout you know, not seeing them on the date but seeing them as living breathing people with all their, you know, imperfections, shortcomings and all that. Oh, he snores Oh, you know, whatever. So those are surface breakers. But I think the deeper breaker is the difference in Love Languages difference in attachment styles. So Vanessa and I are different so many ways. You know, how we show love, you know, all of that stuff. So those are all breakers and those are all things that need to be talked about, processed, worked through. And also continuing. That I think is what love is about, you know, and that's that's hard. A lot of people bounce when things get hard.

Robin | That's for sure. You say the easy parts not love, it's lust. People are getting, especially when you're first dating somebody right? You're so wrapped up in this and you're thinking I'm so in love with this person. And really it's like the real stuff is like the love you can't you can be so in lust with someone right? You're like thinking I am just, this is it. This is the person that we talked about. This is the one. But it's infatuation and just like all the newness that comes it's just the excitement of being with somebody new. But really, the love doesn't, like you said, the love doesn't start until it gets hard and before that it's the lust stage.

Vanessa | Yeah the lust stage is, it's great, right?

Robin | It's so fantastic.

Vanessa | That's why everybody seeks it out and that's why people leave after a year or two and they go to somebody else. That's why we've got the serial monogamist for a year or two and then they jump and they jump because they want that constant feeling, they want that constant feeling of dopamine because in their minds that equals love, right? And we know I mean, even biologically, we know that after two years, those hormones start to fade, right? It's the I need to mate, I need to mate kind of hormones. And the question then becomes, what if you do want this kind of sustaining relationships. So what is love? Right? What is love once the shiny veneer has worn off? And it's not to say that you don't experience those moments. It's not to say that the person walks in, and occasionally you still feel butterflies, and you still want to rip their clothes off. I mean, you know, that still happens. But if it's not happening all the time, what does love mean? What does connection mean? What does commitment mean? Right? And this is the time when you need to really start asking yourself those questions, because you can't just rely on that shiny veneer anymore to get you through things. It's not enough.

John | Yeah, and I don't think that lust goes away. I think it kind of grows up and matures.

Vanessa | I like that.

Robin | Yes, I like that.

John | So like, if you look at love, as, you know, in elementary school, the four food groups, the laminated poster, and I'm probably dating myself, because they probably don't have that now. But you know, when I think lust is a part of that, so under, you know, lust, chemistry, all of that, the dopamine, and that should be in every relationship. I don't think that should be gone. But I do think that it matures, I think it you know, I would say ferments but

Vanessa | That's a very different meaning. Then it becomes Kimchi. [all laugh]

Robin | Yes, you want the lust in your relationship to stay. Yes. It's a very important part of your relationship, Keep the fire going, right?

John | Can we call this episode Lust Becomes Kimchi? [all laugh]

Robin | So I really, really appreciated. So, Vanessa, thank you so much for everything you taught in the book about mindfulness. After I read the book, and it was funny, I found myself in this situation this weekend. And it was my husband and I were in this heated discussion. It wasn't about us, it was about something else that was going on in my life that I was bringing to him for advice and counsel. And I found myself getting really heated and just getting you know, and, and I employed Vanessa's, your tips around mindfulness. And I just really appreciated that part of the book, because this is something that is so important when you're in hard conversations, when you're in conflict, is just being present. And can you talk about the mindfulness practices that you have in your life? And really, and also about what you have learned to do within yourself in those hard conversations or those conflicts?

Vanessa | Yeah, you know, I think that when you were talking about being in conflict, I think we need to really get familiar with how we are and who we are in conflict, because it's different for everybody. And a lot of it has to do with our upbringing, a lot of it has to do also with our nervous system and our wiring. You know, not everybody is going to have the same tolerance level for conflict. One person might say, What are you talking about, that's not even conflict at all, and the other person is completely flooded, right? So you can't expect somebody to respond in the same way that you do, the best that you can do is get really familiar with what that feels like and looks like for you. Right. So I know for me, I get flooded very easily. And flooding for me, I also tend to be more avoidant. So flooding for me tends to be on the surface, like I check out, you know, I have a hard time keeping eye contact, I get really tired, my whole system kind of shuts down. And I started realizing that, obviously, the kind of buildup of the rage and the anger that leads to the shutdown is not conducive to trying to have a healthy conversation. So in order to kind of slowly increase my capacity for that, it's been really important for me to say, okay, I can feel the heat, I can feel the tightness in my stomach, I can feel the emotion welling up in my throat, right? And I tend to dissociate a lot. Like once that happens, I'm gone, like I leave my body, like I said, I'm not paying attention. And so I start doing things where it's like, I'm pinching my leg, or I'm digging my nails into the chair, something that is physical that will help keep me in my body and keep me present. And I gave that example of my toolbox to I guess, be maybe a catapult for other people to say you need to figure out what your toolbox is, it's all it's always going to be different, right? But in order to help you stay present, and to stay out of that, like kind of childlike version of yourself that we all go to when we get activated, right? Because nothing good comes from that part of ourselves. Like if we're acting in our adult relationship from that childhood version of ourselves, especially in conflict, you can guarantee nothing good is gonna come of it. So is there a way that by understanding myself and practicing those mindful skills that I can I can keep myself in my adult body for just a minute longer, right? And it's not about perfection because I still do it. I still check out. I think my nervous system will always do that. But I can do it a lot longer. And I know now when I need to take a break, and I know how to ask for a break. And so those have been some of the, I think positive benefits from that practice for me.

Robin | I also really love this mantra that you have when you're, when you're in. It's like, I want to listen to understand first before being understood.

Vanessa | Yeah, and I stole that from John. He always does it and then I realized that for me, mantra repeating, like repetition of a mantra was actually really helpful to help me stay in my body. And so at some point, I realized that was actually a really good mantra to repeat during conflict, because it is exactly what I'm attempting to do in those moments. And so I think even that as a practice can be helpful, right? Find something like that, that works for you and use it as a tool. Repeating it for yourself.

Robin | It's such a good, that's a great tool while you're being mindful. It's also this is, you know, you have a big you have a large section in your book about communication, skills for good communication, nonviolent communication. And listening first, you know, you want to understand the other person before, making that a priority before being under sorry. Does that make sense that my saying that correctly?

Vanessa | Mhmm. Trying to understand before being understood.

Robin | Yes, yeah. What about you, John? How does it show up for you when you're in a hard conversation? Because I feel like when Vanessa explains how she's feeling physically, I feel those ways I do I think I do shut down. I think I'm more like, oh, you know, slow everything down.

John | You know how earlier we're talking about waking up, all of us kind of waking up. I'm still sleeping. So you know, what's been helpful is, so like, last night, we got into it last night, we got into some conflict, a hard conversation. And in the middle of it, Vanessa said, I feel like I'm about to be flooded. And that was really helpful for me, because when she said that, it was a sign for me to be, oh, let's put that first let me Let's calm down or backup or John, you need to shut up or at least be aware. So even something like that one sentence. So her being aware of how she feels and then communicating that to me, gave me instruction. Right. And I think that helps hard conversations from going from being productive, expressive to overwhelming, traumatic, and, you know, out of control. So her being, I'm just saying that her being mindful also helps me because it becomes a radar, you know, it becomes a compass.

Vanessa | Yeah, I think I think John, he's expressed this, you know, whether it's communication style, or conflict style, I think I tend to be again, whether it's avoidant, anxious, whether it's like the the sweep it under the rug, verbal diarrhea, like we kind of go back and forth on this. So I think when John gets really heated, he can, and he has said this like play lawyer or be a little bit of a steamroller, which to me just activates that like pulling in and not responding and not engaging even more. And so I think the more that we can both be aware of this is my pattern. And again, this is my inner child being activated, right? This is not the adult version of myself showing up in my best way, my best version. But if we can be aware of that, and in that moment that I say that to him, him being like, oh, okay, maybe what I can do is change some of my behaviors in this moment so that she doesn't get flooded, or I need to pull back a little bit, then we can have more productive conversations, and it doesn't turn into like you said, kind of a war.

Robin | Yeah. So we have a little bit of time left. So I wanted to go over apologizing, and how very important this is. And you do cover it in the book, because I really, I really liked how you open this up and said, rarely do both. Rarely do you both. You in your practices. You don't hear apologies, you don't hear people apologizing very much. Right? And I'm not I wasn't by this. Maybe people say sorry, but they're following it by but, but, but right? So that's not a real apology. So can you talk more about this and really the importance of an apology? I think a lot of people don't have this skill. And it's such an important one.

Vanessa | Yeah, I think the way I've started to really look at it is how common it is for us as people to not be able to separate the feeling or the thought I've done something wrong or I've done something quote-unquote bad with I am bad. A lot of us have those two thoughts or beliefs coupled. And so the practice for us internally, it's not our partner's job, but it's ours is to really work through where that comes from, why that's there, what triggers that response. Right? What holds us back from apologizing? Because then we get into our ego, then we get into the arrogant place of ourselves, you know. And a lot of that arrogance is just masking. If I apologize, and I admit that I did something bad, then that means that I am bad, right? And so I have compassion when I realized that's where it comes from. But the actual day to day practice is really exactly what you said, can you say I'm sorry for x, and just put a period at the end of it. Without trying to explain it right. Now, people will argue, yeah, but what if like, something is really important, and I do need to say it, that's fine. And we say this in the book, you can have that conversation later, after the apology has kind of been taken in by the other person, and they feel like you've seen them, and you've heard them and you've taken ownership, then maybe later that day or a week later, you can have a conversation about some of the things that went sideways that led you to behave in the way you did. It's just not the moment in the moment. It's the moment for the apology, and that really should be it.

Robin | Yes. The taking responsibility piece is something that people have a hard time with.

John | Yeah, I was gonna say, yes, people use a lot of commas instead of periods. So there's, there's two things for me. One is actually saying I'm sorry, even if you could disagree, you could disagree with what happened. But saying sorry, for the pain, the hurt or how your partner is feeling. So I'm sorry. And then yes, the second piece, also, most of us dropped the ball. What are you going to do about it? Right? What's the action? What's the ownership? You could say? Sorry, all you want. But are things going to change? Right? So I'm sorry, I cheated on you. And I will never do it again but I'll also look at where that came from and why and take some kind of ownership. Right. So there has to be two things. For I think, apologies to be effective.

Robin | Yes. And something we didn't go over, which I think is you know, you say in the book, too, that how we like learning to say sorry, is something that most of us learn, either we learn or we don't learn from our parents, from growing up. Right? And, John, you grew up in a family where there was a lot of explaining, not apologizing. This is why this happened. This is why I did what I did. Right. And Vanessa grew up. Correct me if I'm wrong, Vanessa, but it was like, either avoiding or it's like, I'm sorry we fought.

Vanessa | Yeah. But pretending it didn't happen at all.

Robin | Right. That's like, I'm sorry, you feel this way. Right? It's like, well, that's not a sorry for what I did. I'm sorry, you feel that way. Well, that's kind of like putting it back on you. So we learn these things. We learn to do it incorrectly. And then we're expected to do it, within in our adult relationships. So it's that awareness piece too. Where it comes from and just like, Okay, I don't want to repeat that.

Vanessa | Yeah, and I'm trying not to write like, we, you have kids. It's like I find myself apologizing a lot. You know, and just bottom line. It's not I'm sorry, I lost my shit, because you weren't listening to me. Like, you not listening to me does not justify me losing my shit like bottom line. It doesn't right, even at three years old. And so I find myself even with her being like, I lost my cool. And that wasn't okay, I shouldn't have spoken to you like that. And I'm sorry. And just putting the period there, you know, we have the opportunity to correct it even with our kids.

Robin | Yeah. Just the other day, just few days ago, before we go. My daughters, they were horsing around, my two girls were horsing around in the kitchen after dinner. And all of a sudden, Todd and I were upstairs, we hear this bang and a plate had fallen on the ground and something else fell on the ground. We didn't know, it was a big bang. So the plate’s broken, we come downstairs and they're cleaning up the mess. And Todd asked, did my iPad fall on the ground? Nope. Both of them just, you could tell it had because just the looks on their faces. They were lying. Right? So I just said, Okay, let's clear up. They cleaned up. And we sat down on the couch later. And I asked straight out to my younger daughter. I said, Did the iPad fall on the ground? Yes, I think it did. Mom. I was like, you need to take responsibility for that. So he came back to the room. And she said I think it fell on the ground. And I'm sorry about that. But you know, she was learning you have to take responsibility, whether you like it or not. And it all ended up well. But that's a good example of being like you have to take ownership for your mistakes. So I just want to thank you so much for both of your time. I loved our conversation. And I really, I hope everybody that's in a relationship or even wants to be in a relationship will read your book. Because the bottom line is there's so many practical skills that people can bring in to, to their relationships. And I think of it just as like shifting. You say this right? It's about shifting relationship patterns, these old patterns of thinking of being so that really we can we can bring our relationships to a bigger place of us So, instead of just you and me, us. We.

John | Yeah. So, Robin, I want to thank you for something. So, you know, we've done a lot of podcasts and hosts, they don't even open the book, let alone read it.

Robin | What?! I can't believe that!

John | Okay. Me included. Cause I have my own podcast. I don't read shit, but it's, it's we're busy. I get it, but you actually read our book. So that in itself is says a lot about you. And it just says you have a lot of time on your hands. [all laugh] Yeah, but thank you for reading it. I appreciate it.

Robin | Well, thank you both.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey