Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 3 Episode #9 with Dr. Jody Carrington | Transcript

22.03.16

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Welcome to this very exciting episode of Let's Talk Love. I am so thrilled to share this conversation with someone I adore and admire, and a woman I continue to learn so much from. Dr. Jody Carrington is a psychologist, Best Selling Author and public speaker. She lights up the room with her realness and infectious humor. I laugh out loud often, whenever I listen to her, and today was no exception. Today we talk about her new book, Feeling Seen. Jody teaches us about the life-changing skill of empathy. She walks us through key skills for learning how to emotionally regulate ourselves and others. Her message is simple: we are wired to do the hard things but we are so much braver when we do them together. Her mission is to lead what she calls a reconnection revolution. And she is definitely the right woman for the job. Enjoy.

Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships and they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward, and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love...

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this very special episode of Let's Talk Love. I'm joined by Dr. Jody Carrington. Hi Jody!

Dr. Jody Carrington | Hi Robin!

Robin Ducharme | People that are listening might be like, Oh my gosh, there's a lot of screaming going on. But I said before we started recording that I am such a fan of you, Jody, I want to call you Jode. I've got a cousin Jody and you're like such a Jode. You know?

Dr. Jody Carrington | Rob, you go right ahead. You go right ahead. I am very excited about that.

Robin Ducharme | So I am, we're so happy to be together and talking about your book, Feeling Seen. It is so amazing and those of you listening that haven't. So I bought it of course, but I also listened to it. It's not you. I was like, Oh what, Jody, I want to hear you and your laughter. But but it's still funny. I laughed out loud, like I always do when I you know, listen to you or read your books. But it really was, it's a brilliant, brilliant piece of work. Jody, I want to commend you on that. I really, really loved it.

Dr. Jody Carrington | Thank you so much.

Robin | And I passing it on to everybody I know, because we just we all have to read it.

Dr. Jody | Oh my gosh, thank you.

Robin | So please, can you please tell us how you came up with? Really, what does it mean to feel seen? And why?

Dr. Jody | Yeah, that's such a great question. And why. Yeah, goodness, I'm so proud of it, it feels a little bit like it just happened. And you know, we're just sort of catching our breath. Now we're in the middle of the book tour. It is, you know, I started out everything that I learned, I think, you know, really came from the biggest lessons in my life really have come from how people made me feel, either, you know, in their presence, because I think some of the most pivotal experiences in this lifetime don't happen with words, right. And when I think about growing up in a small town in Alberta, you know, it was really about when people kind of believed in you. And you felt that in your core. And, you know, when I think about you know, I worked at the Alberta Children's Hospital for 10 years on a psychatric inpatient unit for kids. When I think about working, you know, I was a civilian member of the RCMP, and you know, sitting with people who have seen and heard and smelled and tasted multiple things that people just shouldn't do, or see or hear or smell, you know, many, many times in their lifetimes. And they experienced that daily, there often isn't words for those experiences. And what it really comes down to is your ability to sort of sink into another. And that's really the definition of feeling seen, right? It is such a brave attempt at really feeling felt the felt sense of another. And we're all very, very good at it. When we are, it's predicated on our own emotional regulations. So you can't give away something you've never received. And you certainly can't do that for another when you are empty or dysregulated. Or you feel unseen yourself. So it's this really tricky cycle that we find ourselves in. Because right now in the world, I feel like we're in the middle of a mental health crisis like we've never experienced. And I think we have to step into some means that will be remarkably difficult. And I think the answer to it all, which is really the impetus of the book is is to get back to the best parts of ourselves because we are all born with this ability to truly sink into each other. We're wired neurobiologically for connection and the most unhealthiest amongst us stay disconnected, and understandably so. Particularly people who have come from multiple generations of abuse, neglect and trauma, or you know, have experienced as cultural genocide or, you know, have been taught again and again and again that human beings can't be trusted. And that's the story for so many of us, right. And it's interesting because the ironic suggestion is, in order to be whole again, or to be able to feel seen or allow somebody else to feel seen as you have to trust in the very relationship that likely caused you the trauma. So it's this wonderful thing, you know, and I love your platform so much, because it's really about that navigating the, the intricacies that are relationships, they're essential for living and the thing we run away from the most when we've been hurt, and it's the only thing that will heal us.

Robin | Yes. Oh, my goodness. So well said. And so your book is about a reconnection revolution. I love that, really. And can we talk about the disconnection in the world, you know, because you give some really good examples in your book, you talk about, you know, how in the past, you share the story about your grandparents, and you know, same thing with my grandparents, like, just like they grew up, my dad grew up in a very, very, like, small square footage, one bedroom, two bedroom home. And, you know, they didn't have, they had to have a coal stove outside. And they, they lived in close proximity to each other. There weren't cell phones, there wasn't a way for us to escape. Right?

Dr. Jody | Yeah, I because I think you know, the bigger question in this whole thing, Robin is like, why are we here? How did we get to this place where we've never had this much access to resources and research and but we're killing ourselves at higher rates from emotional illness and from physical illness for the first time in history. How are we this psychologically emotionally unwell? And in feeling seen, what I really wanted to do is unpack all of those things. And so for the first half of the book, it's this, like, rip your soul out bullshit around "Here's why we're so fucked up." Right? One of those things is we've never been this emotionally dysregulated. Right, the ability to stay calm has been more compromised now than ever before. The lack of proximity that has changed remarkably, in the last couple of years, right. Sorry, couple of generations, you know, as you said, it's not that old that our our fathers grew up in one bedroom houses. I mean, if you think about the square footage of the house that your grandfather was raised in, and the square footage of the house in which we raise our babies, right, and because of technological advances, which listen, technology isn't the problem. It is allowing us to do this today. But because of technological advances, the way we use them, we are becoming it's the facilitator of disconnection, because, you know, again,

Robin | Facilitator of disconnection, wow.

Dr. Jody | Yep. Well, listen, because it's the irony is, despite the fact that we're wired for connection, the hardest thing we will do is look into the eyes of the people we love.

Robin | Yes.

Dr. Jody | And we've never had this many exit ramps. And so when we're feeling unseen, overwhelmed in a mental health crisis, all we need is each other. But we have so many other places to jump off of, we'll take it, because we're not brave enough. And we're losing our skill in being able to have the hard conversations, to step into an elevator and say, Hey, good morning. you look so great today.

Robin | Yes.

Dr. Jody | Right. That's the exception to the rule. And that is, I think, going to take a revolutionary effort to step back into, not that we don't, everybody has the skill to allow another to feel seen. Right? It is mastered by none of us. But we all have the potential. And so the whole point is, how do we just remember that this is no senior leaders job, this is no government policy, it is up to you and me to do the next best right kind of thing. And when we do more of that in our families, in our organizations, in our communities, we will create a ripple effect, there will be a movement of sorts, the Mother Teresa said this, you know, your only job is to cast a stone. And I often you know, you know, I wrote about this in the book, but I keep Rahm Das's quote over my shoulder.

Robin | I love that.

Dr. Jody | I think it's the most profound. We are all just here walking each other home.

Robin | Oh, yeah, it's just so, it's simple, but not easy. And it's beautiful.

Dr. Jody | Well, and basically, it is like don't be a dick. Can you please just be nice to people and do not underestimate your power in that regard, I think is really the whole message.

Robin | And I really, I love the fact and this is what Real Love Ready, I mean really what we attempt daily to do is to bring us not only the information, the knowledge that we need to remember, but the skills and your book has a lot of skill that you know, and you say, like a lot of these things, you know, we have to be shown we and it's practice and awareness. So you say I would confidently argue that at the heart of all physical and mental health is one's ability to emotionally regulate. But if you're not shown how to do that, and even so, can we talk about like I love this to the section about flipping your lid.

Can you explain what flipping our lid is? Because we didn't realize that it was like a psychological term, right?

Dr. Jody | I know. And so I mean, listen, I did, I don't know, 12 years of post secondary education. And I never really learned much about the neurobiological underpinnings to all of this stuff around, you know, our psychological processes. Because you still to this day, we focus a lot on behavioral interventions, right? The fundamental, you know, I think, philosophical underpinnings of every major institution, education, and justice and parenting and corporate America is all based on this idea of behaviorism, you make a good choice and I reward you, you don't make a good choice, I punish you. And the hope is that you will then come out in a compliant way an emotionally regulated way calm, okay. So we put a high emphasis in our culture today, we always have on being calm. And it's interesting though, the only way you learn how to stay calm, is somebody has to show you. So when you bring a baby home from the hospital, the only way that they communicate is they lose their friggin mind, they cry. That's the job of little people is to lose their freakin minds. Because the chaos is necessary to learn the calm. And then the job of big people is to walk them home. Okay, okay. And the more I do that in a village, in the in the in the sort of experience of a child, if I have enough people surrounding that kid who can stay calm in times of their distress, they start to embody that understanding that if I, I can solve this, this is manageable. Here's how I use my words. Here's how I engage when things get difficult.

Robin | It's okay. It's okay.

Dr. Jody | Yeah, if nobody's been able to do that for that child because they've been surrounded by people who are unable or in their own shitstorm, then what they grow up into this world with is only fight, flight and freeze. Those are the things that we're all born with, right. And so when they get distressed, if they only have fight, flight and freeze on board, you know, somebody, they get into a fender bender, they jump out of the car and be like, "Fuck you. Asshole" versus like, "Oh, okay, okay. Hey, are you okay? What were you doing here?"

Robin | Yes.

Dr. Jody | Yeah, yeah, our ability to give it away, though, is that somebody has shown us how to do it. And we do this all the time with people is we try to practice what we're going to do with big emotion in a state of calm, and it is a waste of time. Because oftentimes, what we do, and I'll give you an example of this with kids, you know, we say or to husbands, or when we think about, you know, what we practice around a school shooting, for example, we want to go through all the scenarios when we're relatively calm. And so when I say to you, okay, okay, what are you going to do the next time a panic attack comes on? What are you going to do? You're gonna say, Okay, I'm gonna use my words, I'm going to take a deep breath, I'm going to journal, and you know, you're like, fuck off. And then in the moment, you know, two hours later, you step into that place, and you're like, [mimics the panting sounds of a panic attack]

Robin | The last thing you're gonna do is journal, right?

Dr. Jody | So when you're regulating what you need is people to walk you through it.

Robin | Yes.

Dr. Jody | And this is true of kids. You know, we do this all the time with kids, where we will say, you know, okay, you don't hit your sister. What do we do when you feel distressed, or some people who bullied you at school, and they can come up with all the strategies when they're emotionally regulated. Because when we are calm, we have access to the best parts of ourselves. And part of our job is not necessarily to figure out how we get people from getting distressed. I think it is so much more clearly important to figure out a roadmap for not when, not if, because we're all going to get there. But when we get distressed, what do we do about this? What do we do about that in our family systems, in our communities, in our organizations? Because we're up against things like, you know, colonization, the the effect of racism and marginalization is massive today, despite the fact that we should not be here we are. Workplace burnout is perpetuating every major organization, every small business. And when we think about, you know, rates of mental illness, I mean, the highest rate of suicide in our country is middle aged men, and at much more increasing rates, because they have the least access to emotional regulation. They have the least access to an emotional language, women, the future is female. And I say this, you know, unabashedly, in so many ways, despite the fact I mean, I'm married to a wonderful man, I have two sons and a daughter. This isn't about penises and vaginas. This is about women, generally speaking, have the skills needed in the next generations. We've come from generations that needed brute force to build infrastructure. We now need those of us with an emotional language, to take a seat at the table, to be confident to say, here's what I think needs to happen, or to step into hockey dressing rooms or leadership tables and say, boys, look at me. Come here. Tell me how you feel about that. Boys actually do cry. You don't have to suck itup. Tell me more. What's the hardest part? Because the more we have an emotional language, Dan Siegel also said this. He's a lid flipper guy. You have to name it to tame it because emotions won't kill you, but not talking about them will.

Robin | And not feeling them and letting them pass. Right?

Dr. Jody | Right and we put a high emphasis on like, we just want everybody to be happy. We want our children to be happy. We want our partners to be happy. We want our marriages to be happy. Fuck off, nobody's happy. Right. Every emotion is just an emotion and the more you give space to feel it, to name it to identify it. I feel like a failure. Right? I feel like, you know, our hockey team lost this tournament. And I'm so sad, right? Yes, you you have to experience futility baby boy, right, I'm sorry, that everybody thinks we should all get a medal. We have to figure out how we deal with the hard emotions too. And the more we stuff them and not talk about them, and it's bad to feel, you know, anguish or shame, then we don't know what to do when they come on.

Robin | That's fantastic. So Jody, tell us how like, what are some of the skills of emotional regulation? You talk about, you know, it's funny at first, can I tell us to write up about this before we get to because I really want to talk to you about skills. And I think where I learned it in my own life was around our daughter, my oldest daughter, when she was two and three, she had like the terrible twos and the awful threes, whatever they call them because she had two years solid of tantrums. And it was out of like, out of control. Like she was that kid when we go to the grocery store. And she says, Mom, can I have that candy? And I'd say sweetheart, not today. And she was that kid that would like lay on the ground kicking and screaming, like having the craziest loudest tantrum. And it was embarrassing, but I'm like, Oh, what did we do? Right? I'd pick her up. We leave the store the grocery cart's full of stuff, didn't didn't get grocery shopping accomplished today, people. So and we went to one of the best child psychologists here in Victoria and she taught us the skills of getting down on her level during the time of the freakout and repeating what she was saying, right? "I want that candy." "I want that candy." So I was like, "You want that candy. You want that candy." Right? And until Okay, she she's hearing, she is calming down. Because she is feeling heard. Instead of the strategy before, before we had these tools onboard. We were like, "No, absolutely not, you cannot behave like that. That's not the right way." Like we're trying to change her behavior rather than understand where she's coming from. And also giving her, so she's being heard. And we're actually acting really calm, which was a new skill. In the presence of this craziness. Chaotic child. It worked. It really really did. It was the it was these strategies. So what are the tools? What are the skills for emotional regulation?

Dr. Jody | I love that. There's so many. And so in kids these days. So this was the first book that I ever wrote myself. We self published it, and it became a national bestseller. But I mean, here's the interesting thing, right? If you watch me with my own personal kids, you wouldn't buy the book.

Robin | I love that.

Dr. Jody | Right? I wrote that bitch when I was regulated, because so much of the time is, you know, we're worried about getting kids to make good choices and to comply and to do the things that we want them to do. And I've assessed and treated over 1000 kids in this country, and I have never, not one time met a bad kid. I've met a lot of kids with lots of things on their plates when they're emotionally dysregulated. And their job is to be emotionally dysregulated. My Intervention always is with the big people, yes, with the parents, or the caregivers, or the teachers or the hockey coach or whoever. Because we're a barometer. And it doesn't mean that everything goes it means that you need to be able to take charge when kids get completely out of control. And most of the time, you need to be the walker, you need to be the one that says "Okay, listen, tell me more." So if there's five things that I think about quite often, and these are just sort of like not necessarily, this is what you need to do every time, but I will tell you, these are the strategies that work so effectively, in allowing a kid essentially to feel seen, so that their prefrontal cortex comes back on. And you know, one for me is always about when people feel like you are genuine in your desire to get to know them, to understand them. They come to you like sunshine. And so oftentimes there's some pre work that is done. If you are an educator or coach or even a parent right, signing up for the things that they're excited about. Lighting up. Toni Morrison wrote The Bluest Eye and she says this so beautifully, you know, it's, it's the thing that kids are looking for is the light up, but we tend to want to look for you know, the things that they're doing wrong. Do your coat up. Why didn't you comb your hair before we go to school? Is your lunch done? Instead of, wow look at you. And so what we want is to understand just sort of our role in genuinely seeing the people we love. It is so difficult to do that particularly for adolescents because everything they love is illegal. So very hard to be like "Oh my God the vaping!" [Robin laughs]

Robin | Way to go! How'd it taste?

Dr. Jody | Tell me about, is there a Root Beer flavored weed? But so much about the thing is, you know, teach me about social media, right? We're so scared about it, you know, what are you seeing on the snap face?

Robin | [laughs] "Snap face."

Dr. Jody | Whatever the fucking thing is, you know, but they, they know it. And when you engage in it, you're not going to love you know, with a little kids, you're not going to love, you know, the the the TV shows that everybody is all into now, you're not going to be a huge fan of Peppa Pig. But learn the characters. You know, when they get into that middle age group, right? Everybody's doing the TikToks do the TikToks. Right? Learn about them. Because when you show genuine interest in something that somebody cares about, they come to you like sunshine, and oftentimes, the ones who need it the most are the hardest to give it to, okay. And the ones that are most unlike us, it will be hard to sink into because we feel like we're condoning the behavior. Empathy is actually about suspending judgment. And stepping into the shoes of another not condoning or supporting or believing, but trying to understand it. And three of the words that I think these three words helped me more than anything, especially when I want to fix somebody or give somebody a consequence, or, you know, even with with my team, right, if I think they're completely off base. And I am sort of got a wall up before I ever even want to hear their idea. These three words save my ass all the time, tell me more. And I often have to say, tell me more when I don't want to fucking know more. But if I truly want to be in the place of another, to sort of attempt that emotional regulation, I have to put their needs in this way first doesn't mean I support it ,doesn't mean I'm going to go with the idea, doesn't mean that everybody gets a fucking candy, or medal or whatever it means I'm going to seek first to understand. Stephen Covey stole this from the Bible, you got to seek first to understand before being understood, and it is the hardest game in this human relationship world, because we desperately want to be seen ourselves. And when we don't feel seen, we get louder, we get more assertive, we get more defended. And it becomes one of the greatest skills in human nature to be able to sort of stay genuinely interested in another. The second thing for me is, you know, as you described, which is really cool, getting down on the same level as somebody. Now historically, when I worked with police officers, there is this understanding that if you intimidate another, they will, you know, give you the answer, they will comply. But the truth is, the data is really phenomenal around this, the more I can get on your level, if I can sit down and get you a coffee, the data that I'm going to pull from you will be much more reliable and much more valid, because you're regulated, versus me standing over top of you and being the authority figure, [deep voice] "You fucking tell me what you know", it works so much better when I co regulate emotion, right, which is why if I'm gonna get a narc or I'm gonna get, I'm gonna work on somebody, the undercover world works so much more effectively, because I'm going to get a legitimate response or disclosure, whatever the deal is now. And so down on the same level, if we're talking about kids, you know, one of the most ideal places is in the car, because it is one of the most socially acceptable places that affords proximity these days, and kids are locked in so they can't get away which is allso really helpful.

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Dr. Jody | The other thing that I think is really critical and closely related to that is, you know, the number three idea which is really around eye contact. And you know, a lot of times people talk about how difficult eye contact is for certain cultures or that sometimes it's even not, you know, acceptable to make eye contact or, you know, kids on the spectrum. So I, I respect all of those things very much. But I will tell you that the eyes are the window to the soul. And you can communicate so much more effectively if you can engage in some form of eye contact if it's safe for the other person to do so. And oftentimes, you'll notice that when we get the most uncomfortable what tends to happen first is we look away. And the initial title of Feeling Seen was Don't Look Away.

Robin | Oh, I like that.

Dr. Jody | Because it is so critical isn't that great? It's so critically important to understand, I think the importance of you know, when you slow down long enough to look at your partner and they're, you know, the research around this is really phenomenal. You know, Esther Perel has done a lot of stuff around this as well. It's like when you, one of the asks of some activities that we do in couples therapy is just to sit and look at somebody you love for four minutes.

Robin | It's like, I love the story about you and your husband, Jody, it's hilarious. How you practiced it for the first time with him. And yeah, it's just so good.

Dr. Jody | He's like, What is the rules here? What am I looking for? I was like, listen, I had a lot of choices in 1993, you better fucking look. So yeah, but I but I think so much about that is, you know, just really, when we have alternate places to sort of look and not engage with another, it is a powerful, it's, it's a spiritual experience to be connected truly with another. And oftentimes, the relationship that you and I have, is it particularly if you know, if we've done anything together in our lifetime, it's written without words. And so when I slow down and look at my husband, intently on purpose, I see all the things that I forget about everyday when we're busy, you know, what he looked like on our wedding day, or that he was the guy that laid on the floor of the Foothills Hospital for four hours when our you know, our baby was in the NICU, or, you know, all of those kinds of things. And I think that, you know, with my best friends, I think about this, you know, that we've started kindergarten together, it is never about the words that we say to each other, right? It is, when I can actually get her eyes when I'm most squared.

Robin | It's the history that you have with eachother, and just everything you've shared is, you can see that when you are when you are seeing that person fully. Beautiful.

Dr. Jody | Right. And so there's always exceptions to that rule. But it's really that sort of interesting thing about you know, genuine interest being on the same level, really sort of doing your best to engage and getting eyes. And then the fourth thing that I really, this is probably the most practical suggestion that I talk about all the time, you can't be emotionally irregulated and chew and swallow. It's neuro biologically impossible. So when I have a kid or a partner that is losing their mind, if our team is really struggling, I'll be like, Okay, let's get a drink of water and talk about it. And every therapy session I ever start in this office is always I want to make sure somebody has a water, a cup of tea and a coffee, whatever it is. Because if you can chew and swallow, you can't be emotionally dysregulated. And what's interesting, I mean, I have to say this example like if you've ever been at a funeral and you know, the snacks are out all the, I don't know if this happens in BC, but in Alberta, the universal sign of death is open faced egg salad sandwiches.

Robin | Deviled eggs. Yeah.

Dr. Jody | Right. Yeah, somebody's dead, okay. And so if you're like frolicking in the lunch section, and you take a bite of food, and somebody comes over to you and just sort of crushes your soul, they say something like, she, she talks about you to the very last breaths, you know, breath, you meant everything to her, my God, she's going to you, we're going to miss her so much. And you start to well up, what happens if you've just taken a bite?

Robin | You can't finish it.

Dr. Jody | You can't, because you lose access from your brainstem to your prefrontal cortex. And it's required for you to be emotionally regulated. So the reverse is true. When I get somebody who's losing their mind, if I have a kid, for example, even back at the Children's Hospital, it was like, you know, just destroyed a room or took their clothes off or told someone you know, was like, fuck you, I hate you. Instead of addressing the behavior, which is really irrelevant in this moment, because he's not in a teachable place, I would say things like, okay, okay, okay, let's get it, let's get a drink of water. And if you can use words in that moment, they'll say things like "I dont want water." And if they can say, you know, could you have juice, then we're in business, right. And historically, we've been taught to die in the juice hill, right? We're like, "I offered water, I'm the boss of you. This is not an option." Like zip your mouth, and get the fucking juice. And if I can, the purpose is not to reward that child in that moment, it is actually to get them regulated. So then I can teach.

Robin | Yes. I love it.

Dr. Jody | So food becomes a really critical place. And I mean, our grandmother's understood this, you know, breaking bread together, getting the family together. And when we think about you know, often gathering around food food has become such a reward and consequence kind of thing. You know, like, we're gonna reward you with food. You only get the cheat meal, if you've worked out, you only you know, if you if you read these books, you get to choose from the treat bin. using food as a reward has really fucked up our relationship with it.

Robin | Oh it sure has.

Dr. Jody | And so much of this is how do I use it as a place to sort of keep me healthy.

Robin | Nourishing and healing. Yes.

Dr. Jody | Yeah, so that's the fourth one. And then the fifth one that I talk about quite often is that like, we were never meant to do any of this alone. So separating from each other in times of distress is sometimes necessary in the moment, but nobody can do this alone. So sending a kid to their to their room, sending a kid outside the classroom. The silent treatment is probably the single most harmful intervention that you can engage in because we're all wired for connection, we're walking each other. And if you need to take a break, that's fine. If I need to, I'm a huge believer in time outs, for me! Because if I'm losing my mind, so if I have to send my kid to their room, if I have to lock myself in the bathroom, and I usually keep a bottle of white in the tank of the toilet so it's chilled. [both laugh] I don't, I don't.

Robin | That's hilarious though.

Dr. Jody | But it's then going to be my job as the big person or the one in the relationship, who has the skill to be able to come back and say, Okay, let's talk about it. Because little people or the people with less skill, tend to, to not not have that ability. It's not that they don't have, they don't desire it. It's not that they don't want to fix it. I mean, I don't know if you've ever had this with a child, but you know, they're having a temper tantrum, and they're like, Get out of my room. And you're like, okay, and you got to leave in there, like, where are you going?

Robin | Exactly.

Dr. Jody | What do you want from me? Like I, you know, because they know, they can't do it alone. But when we get the most dysregulated, we say things like, shut up, I hate you, get out. And the truest parts of each other is when we're regulated. When your kid is calm, that's who they are. When your partner is calm, they have access to the best parts of themselves. When you and I are calm, we have access to the best parts of ourselves. So it's not so much about teaching skills, as it is having an infrastructure to get back to the best parts of ourselves. And that's really what Feeling Seen is about. What do we do to get back to the best parts of ourselves? And then what do we do when not if we lose our way?

Robin | It is not when it's if. No, no, it's not if it's when. So actually, you made a good point, Jody about because you talked about this in the book too around if you, if you are the better if you are better skilled or better equipped to be the person to always go back like in couples, right? You've done so much couples therapy, and you hear this often like maybe from the woman saying, you know, I feel like I'm always the one to apologize, or come back and say, Can we talk about this, and then you begin to feel resentful. You're like I'm making, I'm the one that's making all the effort, he doesn't care. So but you reframe that. And you say, this is the person that's going like that is going back to repair has more, is more equipped or has more skill, right?

Dr. Jody | Yes. And I think that's that's part of the point, right, is that it's never anybody's responsibility to be the fixing all the time. But I think sometimes if we're expecting that we're in relationship with people who have equal skill, it often isn't true. And I think sometimes our ability, particularly as leaders, you know, women in organizations, we tend to have much more of an emotional language, because you can't give away something you've never received. So despite the fact that, you know, if nobody's ever truly apologize to you, if nobody's ever looked in, you know, the eyes of your husband or your father in law, and said, you know, what, I'm so sorry, that was really not fair. And I feel like I broke your heart. And I didn't mean it. If nobody's ever, not fed those words, if it's always been like, it's fine, you're fine, don't be a dick, get over it, suck it up. If that's the only sort of neural pathway that they have, then it becomes really difficult when the people they love hence, you know, you or me, are struggling, their skill set is to be able to be like, it's okay, it's fine, you're fine, it's fine, it's fine. And we can say, here's what I need from you. But what becomes really important is when we can sink into those relationships and start it and say, you know, tell me more, here's why this is hard for me. Like, I feel like I'm kind of failing in this way. And the more we do that, in the context of relationship for each other, we tend to be able to get access to the best parts of of of each other.

Robin | And you say that one of the, you know, one of the skills if you were to let go of everything else, you know, all the other skills you have in your life, that number one that you would keep, which is the most important is empathy. And you've talked a lot about empathy in your book.

Dr. Jody | Yes and we suck at it.

Robin | Yes and so like, Jody, this, this is what I think we do. And I think people think that they're really good at empathy. Maybe they don't understand what empathy really is. Like, what truly is the depth like how does empathy show up? How can you demonstrate empathy for somebody?

Dr. Jody | Okay, so two things I think what I hear often is like people say, this guy has no empathy or I'm worried about this kid because he has no empathy. Again, it is a skill you're not born with it. You have to receive it again and again and again to get good at giving it away. And the definition I mean, I think I talked about it in Feeling Seen because so many people have researched empathy and have nuanced the, the definition and then they disagree Are you with the definition and for me, it's as simple as this right? When I have the ability to truly understand another, it is going to require me to step out of judgment was Liz Wiseman talks about, like the four tenants of empathy. And, you know, one of them is, you know, I have to step out of judgment in that moment, which is so hard for us, you know, I have to truly seek, you know, this idea to understand what it must be like, you know, to be you, even if, if I'm devoid of that experience, like, and I say this all the time, as a clinical psychologist, I don't have to have schizophrenia, in order to be empathic around somebody who is struggling with a psychotic episode, right? You don't have to have experienced sexual abuse to have empathy for somebody who does. And it's very different than projection, because it's not something like, Oh, I know exactly what that's like. Right? That that is so debilitating, and in allowing somebody else to feel seen. And it's also, you know, not in this place of like, I know exactly what this is like. And sympathy, of course, is this place of I'm so sorry that you feel this way. None of those things are empathy. Empathy is truly a stepping in and wondering about, tell me more, what was that like?

Robin | And it's also not fixing it right Jody? Because you say, like you because you teach therapists and you said, you're amazed, even in a therapy world, because this was I was like, Oh, when I read that, I was like, wow, right. This is a skill, like you said, but I think it's like, empathy is not trying to fix somebody, there's nothing you need to do. Your job is to empathize, is to understand.

Dr. Jody | Yes, I love that you said that. Because it is. So it is. So every time I remember the power of empathy. It's so freeing, because as a therapist, as a mom, as a leader, I'm always like, Okay, what is the answer? I have to come up with something, you know. And when I remember that, it's like, it's just like, I want to truly get it. And there's so much healing in that process. It is the things like, what am I missing? Tell me more? What's the hardest part? Did it feel like? And you you try those on for size and see if that fits, right? Is this like, gosh, like, you're just you failed? No, no, not like I failed. It's like, I really, I let myself down. Ah, so it's like...

Robin | It's like you're excavating like you're digging. You want and actually, this is a really, this is really good, because you talk about how we want to, we do want to name it. That's, I'm getting this Jody as we're talking about it like, but it is important to put words to it, right? Because you might not be in that you actually give an example of this in the book about a patient of yours, you know, that you were working with who, I think it was this, you're talking about, like you were trying to name and she was like, Nope, that's not it. That's not it. And then you finally found the word and she was like, Yes. And you're like, oh,

Dr. Jody | Have you ever seen that though, Robin, when you're with somebody, like in this context relationship, and then you get it like you're with your friend or your with your something and you're like, you're not hitting it, you're trying so hard. And then you get it and it's like ahh, and the shoulders drop, and the breath comes back in. And they're like, that is a neuro physiological shift that happens when we're trying to sort of orchestrate our experience. Because when we experience something that happens viscerally in our bodies, or, you know, it feels traumatic, it was encoded in terror, or, you know, we don't feel like somebody's got it. The getting of that is essentially the processing of that emotion. And it allows you to free be free from it, not from the memory, not from the fact that it happened, but the sort of visceral hold that it has on you. Because we start to tell the stories about those things like Oh, my God, I must have been a failure. Fuck, it was my fault in that relationship. I didn't get to that, you know, that that emergency scene fast enough. I let my kids down in this way. You know, or is it more about, you did the best you could with what you had? You know, more now today than you did back then? You crushed it back then mama. That's what, that's what we, could that be it? Could it be that you just brought everything you had to the table? And in that moment, man, that was all you had? You didn't know what you know now. [sighs] It's often accompanied by sigh. If I see a sigh in therapy, it is like money in the bank. Because it's that neurophysiological shift.

Robin | So can we, let's talk about when you're working with couples and relationships and things that come up, because, you know, a lot of our listeners, you know, we're talking about intimate partnerships all day long. And I read this and I thought, Wow, this You said in marriage, so real divorce rates are still climbing, right? They're not... and that's that's a scary that's a scary thought thinking.

Dr. Jody | Particularly post pandy. Yeah.

Robin | Yes. You say in marriage, the relationships, you see relationships becoming rocky when a cycle of feeling a lack of security starts. A lack of security. So can we talk about that, Jody, please? Like, what does that? I mean, you've you've treated, you've had so many patients or, you know, couples that you're working with, I want to understand. It's like, tell us some stories, because you're such a great storyteller, maybe we'll understand better.

Dr. Jody | Yeah, no, I think that sometimes, you know, it's like, Why two people come together in any particular place is that there is a bravery of vulnerability. And the less I have invested in a relationship, the easier it is to be vulnerable, which is why you know, affairs happen. You know, Esther Perel talks so much about this. And it's like, it is so easy to that feeling is intoxicating, to be seen, to be valued, to be noticed. And the less I know about you, the easier it is to be able to give that to you. Right. And so in the beginning, I can be very excited. I talked about this, you know, on the second date with my husband, you know, all I know about him on paper is that, like, you know, he's got a PhD, and he's judged cattle around the world, and he's got a solid job, and he's got all of, you know, his teeth and like, things are happening. I'm super impressed.

Robin | And you've got a story, right? That's that we have for people that we don't know, it's like,

Dr. Jody | Yes, two brothers, and they grew up on a farm and like, oh, God, this is gonna be fantastic. And so, like, on the second date, I'm like, Tell me more. And oh, my God, he's like, do you want to show cows? Like, do you want to want to go check cows with me? I'm like, Oh, yes. Like, I'm, I've got the Carhearts, and I'm ready. And I'm like, all the things. Now, after 15 years of marriage and three kids on the ground, I'm like, I don't, I don't even I really want to, what do you mean, you have a ration to feed cows? Like, that is ridiculous and exhausting to me. And if you blow your nose like this, one more time outside, I'm going to throw up. Okay? So our ability to be open and vulnerable, is so much, you know, we're able to do this at the beginning of a relationship and the security in that sense of somebody else's wonderment curiosity about you is so regulating, it is so affirming. It keeps us open and connected. And what tends to happen in every single relationship is not to avoid the discomfort, the fights, the disagreement, in fact, when people say this, to me, we never fight, it scares the shit out of me. Because I want you to sort of, you know, so every one of the most I think successful, Harriet Lerner is one of my favorite psychologists on the planet. And she has written a number of things that really sort of indicates that this idea to get into a relationship is all about the synchronicity of a dance. She's written like the dance of intimacy, the dance of anger. And it really is, oftentimes when we sort of seek or we put it out there, we get vulnerable, it's not going to be received. Because I'm not in a place when Aaron says to me, you know, babe, I just think you're amazing. I'm like, Don't touch me. And then the next day, when I'm like, Oh, my God, I look at him with our babes. And he, you know, gets asked her to figure something out, I'm just like, you're amazing. He's like, okay, hurry up, we're gonna be late. And the more then when we sort of don't meet those, at the same time, when that dance becomes asynchronous, we start to sort of doubt whether we're effective, or whether we're needed or whether you really care about me in that way. And so what I love most about her most recent work is, you know, Her most recent book is WhyWon't You Apologize? Because she often talks about this idea is that it's not how much you fight, how much you disagree, because that is fundamentally the more time we spend with each other, we're going to find the things that don't align. It's not about that. It's not about how much sex you have. It's not about you know, what financial category you're in. It's irrelevant whether it's the same sex or heterosexual marriage. The question is, what is your ability to repair the Gottman always talk about this, right? The number one factor in couples who make it and couples who don't is about your ability to repair, which I will remind you requires an emotional language. So it becomes so critical in this dance of being able to somehow sink back into the state of emotional regulation. How do I light up around you? How do I genuinely even if it fucking kills me talk about cows, or curling, or tell me more about the things you love? Because when he gets excited about the things I love, or she gets excited about the things I love, I am like, okay, oh my god. I love you too. Okay.

Robin | Because you are being seen, Jody.

Dr. Jody | You are right Robin!

Robin | Full Circle. Oh, I love that. Okay. So, I do want to talk about comparative suffering. And then because that is actually very common in couples too. It's like your suffering is not. I know you're suffering but let me tell you what I'm going through. I mean, I've been with the kids all day long. I've been doing the laundry, I'm the one that does the grocery shopping, I pay all the bills. And what do you do when you're going to work? You go, you know, and you're clocking in at nine and coming home and sitting on the couch, like what the hell, like, you know, you're suffering is nothing compared to mine.

Dr. Jody | So I want you to think about. I want you to think about when we do that the most. Right? Think about the couples that you work with or in your own relationship. When do we feel the biggest need to pull from our partners?

Robin | When we are not feeling prioritized.

Dr. Jody | Yeah, when we're empty, we are seeking another to fill us up. And that is ideally in relationships, the synchronicity of that dance is perfect. And when I come through the door, Aaron is hopefully 100% filled up. And I don't have to turn it up real loud. Right? I don't have to tell him about all the things right? He asks. He's waiting with a glass of wine. He said, You know what, babe, I sent the kids to mom's tonight, because I just know that, like, you work so hard. I don't know what we would do without you. All of those things. Oh, God, you know, I'm filled up. If I come through the door, and he's like, I'm exhausted by it have been here for five days by myself, I don't even know where the fucking two year old is and I blah, blah, blah. Then I'm like, Oh, you're tired?! Did you know that I?! You know, blah, blah, blah. And so what's interesting about that is, you know, Brene Brown talks a lot about this too, you know, really identifying in a relationship with our partners, because we tend to be the ones that in the beginning of our relationships could fill each other up the most. We do know each other the most. And so if you're not okay, then I'm not okay. And if I'm not, okay, you're not okay. And if that perpetually happens, I'm going to look elsewhere to get somebody to fill that up. And if we rely solely on one other person to do that, for us, we typically are screwed. Because how do I get fulfillment from other people, if I just wait in angst for you to come home at the end of the day, and I hope that you're going to be in a good place to fill me up. And if you're not, I'm, you know, if I have done other things in my life, that day, you know, I pour my heart and soul into my work and into the children into my friendships, then I have a lot more to give to my partner, because I am fulfilled in so many other ways, right? I'm looking after my body, I'm drinking my water, I'm doing all the bullshit that you know, is supposed to make us healthy. And I'm doing the very best to stay regulated. Right? And, and then gives me context to your day. And context is the prerequisite for empathy. When I remember that, as my wife, you today, did a, b, and c, you put together this podcast, you got those babies off to school, you did all the things. And today was my day to be at the office. And so then when I come home, I see you in aa different context, and I have empathy. And then I can sink in, and all of a sudden, when I give that to you, then you're so much better able to give it to me. And can I tell you, I'm just thinking about this out loud. But you know, one of the greatest context providers for me, and we all need this in my particular marriage. It's my mom. She says to me a lot. Do you know how lucky you are? I am so impressed with Aaron. When we were on the road in this book tour, she would like text me and say like, Do you know how remarkable that human is? And all I see in our conversations aren he doesn't know how to fucking cook. Why is this kid late for practice? Olivia is just texting me to tell me that she feels like you're yelling at her. And what are you doing? Right? And he's like, you know, that's what I get from him. But I get this text from my mom in the meantime, saying, Oh, my God, Aaron's really tired Jode, and he is like, crushing it here. I came in and he was struggling with Livy on the couch. I'm woke. Context is a prerequisite for empathy. So then my phone call to him isn't? It's like, how was your day, hun? I'm so grateful for you. I'm so glad you're here today. And then we talk about the fact that like, Could you please not yell at Olivia? I'm gonna rip your lips off, you know. So it's how we get to those places. That is we weren't meant to do any of this alone. Yeah. You know?

Robin | Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, I am just so, the other thing you talk about in this book, Jody, and you share this, this is like you are just such a living example of everything you're teaching. And I love your storytelling. And you talk in the book about a way, like one of the one of the most powerful ways that we can heal and help each other heal is by telling our story by sharing our stories. And I'm a storyteller myself, I absolutely love telling stories and sharing stories. I want to hear other people's stories, because we that's how we connect and that's how we learn and, and heal. So I just want to tell you how much I love you Jody. I'm just so glad that we shared this time together. I'm so grateful.

Dr. Jody | Aw I love you!

Thank you. It was such an honor. I love all of the things that you do. doing and I you know, with respect to that, you know, story idea. Richard Wagamese. This is how I open and close feeling seen. He's the author of Indian Horses, a most brilliant indigenous human being. And we talk a lot he talks a lot about the idea is that that's all we are. At the end of the day is story. And the more we're familiar with our own story, the more we're able to receive others.

Robin | Yes. Well, thank you for being with us, JOdy and for sharing all of your stories and your amazing energy and the laughter. The other thing you talk about in the book is joy. And I am like, like, that is like one of my top values, is joy. So we have so much in common, Jody, you're my new friend, whether you like it or not.

Dr. Jody | I know! Done.

Robin | Okay, what everybody I'm holding up this beautiful, beautiful book and my shirt matches.You know what I see, like spirit and source. And that's where we all come from, the same place and we're all wired in the same way. And we're also connected. So thank you very much, Jody. We'll see you soon.

Dr. Jody | Thank you for having me. It was such an honor, Robin.

Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At reallovereadypodcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play, and encourage everyone listening to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey