Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 4 Episode #1 with Elizabeth Earnshaw | Transcript

25.05.23

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Today I had the pleasure of speaking with Elizabeth Earnshaw. Liz is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and a certified Gottman therapist. Today we talk about her book. I want this to work. I've read a lot of relationship books, and this is one I would highly recommend. Liz is an excellent teacher. And she has a wonderful way of explaining relationship dynamics. I hope our conversation offers you some practical tools to make positive changes in your own life. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love. Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk love. I am so excited to welcome our guest, Elizabeth Earnshaw. Welcome, Elizabeth to our show today.

Elizabeth Earnshaw | Thank you for having me, I'm so excited to be here.

Robin Ducharme | I sent you a message last week as I was listening to your book and reading your book. And I just had to like reach out and say how much I was loving it. Because it really is an amazing, amazing piece of work. So I want to congratulate you on that. Thank you so much.

Elizabeth Earnshaw | I really appreciate hearing that

Robin Ducharme | I was reading, I was reading your book. And my my colleague, Kirsten and I were best friends. And we worked together on all of our podcast episodes. I said to her, you know, we read books every week, and we interview a new expert every week. And I really believe that your book is one that everybody should read. It's like it's like a combination of so many, you know, experts that you have studied under and studied with, and your own work and all of your all your experience all in one like, and I feel like it's very easy to digest. Like these are big concepts, right? And a lot of skills. And I think the way that you explain it, I was like, Oh, that's so that is like it's an it's an a cover, it's like easy to what's the word? I guess it's just insane. You make the term that complicated ideas more simple to understand and apply.

Elizabeth Earnshaw | Good. That is exactly what I was going for. Yeah, I felt like

Robin | I couldn't explain it properly. But that's where we're going with this.

Elizabeth | There's just a million ideas out there. And I think can be hard to conceptualize how they fit together and what they actually mean. And so absolutely. one spot for people.

Robin | Yeah. And, and it's so it's a it's a big book, it there's a lot of it's dense. So we're not going to be able to go through, obviously, everything. But I wanted to go through some key concepts that I really learned, and I think that our community can benefit from. So first of all, I want to hear what about you and just tell us about how you got into working in relationship field and becoming a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. And just what led you because I really believe you're a gifted healer and teacher. And I just wanted to learn how about how that evolved into your life?

Elizabeth | Yeah, so it was definitely kind of a winding path. I did not initially think I was going to be a couples therapist or a therapist at all. I went to school to be a teacher, I realized I was not a good teacher,

Robin | Or you aren't good teachers. See this is I love it. Our life leads us down these paths. I think the fact that you just said that out loud is just that might is mind boggling to me because you are an amazing teacher.

Elizabeth | Oh, thank you. Well, I'm not a good classroom teacher. Okay, small children. Yeah, I have I love small children, when there are 20 of them, I cannot manage them very well, because I like to be one on one so much with people or in small groups. And so, you know, one of my biggest problems was always sit, you know, sitting with a student while the rest of the students, you know, needed my attention and classroom management. So, after I graduated with my degree in education and all of that I realized I'm not going to be a teacher. What am I going to do? And I was totally in one of those periods where I was like, lawyer, doctor, architect, I don't know, what am I going to do? I'm gonna have to go back to school. And I was driving down the highway one day, and there was literally a sign there was a billboard. That was for a marriage and family therapy program. And I thought that would be great. I could still work with kids, I'll do family therapy. So I applied only to that program, I got into it and started that program, like within a few months. And I went into it thinking I was going to concentrate and working with kids and doing play therapy and all of those types of things. And ultimately, during that experience, after I graduated working with kids and families, what I realized was the, the people that I felt like I could support the most the kids needed the support to but the ones that I felt like I could support the most for the parents, they were coming in and saying, you know, fix my kid, they're angry, they're out of control. They're sad. But when I would try to help the parent navigate that at home, they couldn't, because they weren't able to regulate themselves, or communicate or do any of those things. So I transitioned into only working with the adults and only working with the couples. And so that was really how the process started. And then from that point, I just started eating up anything I could that had to do with couples therapy.

Robin | Yes, I just absolutely love that Jody Carrington, who we interviewed a few weeks ago. She's, she's Canadian, as well. And she's amazing, I love her, and she says, She's, she's a child psychologist, and works a lot with adults. But that is what she discovered, right? It's like, like use, like you learned. We're not just addressing the children's behavior. It's the adults that are modeling and teaching, and leading right through example. And that has to be like, the first step before you're going to the behavior of the child is like, how are you helping? That's Wow. And this all comes down to. So what you say in your book, you saying in order to be able to build successful relationships, we need to be exceptional communicators. And most of us are not taught to be exceptional communicators. Like this is this is what I because we do this, like I said, for a living, right, I interview people, I'm just like, soaking in hopefully as much as I can, in regards to being better in relationship. But this is like, and this is what you're teaching this book is like, this is a whole new language. This is a whole new not just a language, it's a whole new skill set. That takes time to build and a lot of knowledge, and skill, and practice, practice.

Elizabeth | All of that. And I think that people are really hard on themselves if they can't naturally do it. But it is just not super, it's not an incredibly natural thing to know how to do because what is natural, is to be born into a world where you model yourself after the adults that are around you. And so that the most natural thing is that you came into the world reacting to whatever was happening either by mimicking what you saw, or pushing away what you saw, and try and be completely opposite. But neither of those things is necessarily going to be the right path for how to navigate a lot of different types of adult relationships that you're going to come face to face with.

Robin | Exactly. Yeah. So in your practice, so you are seeing you in your practice. I know you've got such a, you know, you've got a lot going on on Instagram, and you're teaching a lot online. But you're also seeing couples, therapy, correct? Yeah. So what would you say, are the biggest challenges that you are seeing coming up over and over again, with couples today?

Elizabeth | Yeah, so it's interesting, because over the last several years, even pre 2020 of the biggest things that I've seen start to come up more than I saw it in the past was how to couples navigate, overwhelm, and stress. And this is not something that they come in saying, right, they don't come in saying, we're fighting with each other a lot, because our lives are out of control. They come in saying, we're disconnected. We don't have sex anymore, we yell at each other. I don't know if I like this person anymore. And often there's something like diagnostic about the other person, right? Like, they just, they I think they're just too anxious, or I think they must have a problem or they don't know how to communicate or something like that. But when we dig in, what I've been finding is that we kind of live in this hyper manic world right now, where people are thinking that there's an expectation that they do everything, that they're good at everything that they take everything on. And when you're in a partnership and you're both doing that, then it becomes incredibly overwhelming. And if you want we can talk about this a little bit more later. I'm not sure if it'll come up. But the way that that impacts our physiology impacts how we can be in a relationship. So we're irritable with each other because we have too many projects, because we're trying to do too much stuff for our kids, because we're ripping too On another wall in the house to open up the bathroom, during the same week that we're getting hand surgery, you know, like, there's all of these things that people are trying to do. And then they're like, why are we yelling at each other all the time, I'm like, because you are constantly under threat, because of all the stress, heart rate is bracing, your brain is saying you are not safe. And so you are on edge with each other. So that is the common thing that people come in with. The second I would say, is feeling like they care about each other, they love each other. This has been an interesting trend, as a lot of people come in a couples therapy, saying, we actually, I don't think we're gonna get divorced, but something's making us unhappy. And that usually tends to be more along those communication issue things like, we just don't know how to talk about our differences. Yes. And we don't know, a path forward. And so we really want help, so that we don't yell about our differences in opinions, so we don't block each other out. And so that we can figure out how to navigate those. And then the third group of people would be the group of people that have had something significant happen, that they're not sure if they can get over it. So it might be some sort of betrayal, you know, whether that's like sexual or emotional infidelity, but it could also be like financial infidelity, or something else. But they are coming in saying, I'm not sure, actually, if I can continue with you, because I've been hurt in such a good way. And so wanting guidance on that.

Robin | Wow, I love the story in the book of how you say that. How people, if you ask them, you know, you're wanting to get to know this couple. And you ask them, How did you meet? Yeah, and how you can tell where they're at, in their relationship on how they relay that story to you. Can you talk about that? Because that yeah, that was an insight for me. I was like, Oh, wow, fascinating.

Elizabeth | One of the, when I'm meeting with a couple, after I hear what's going on, I tell them, we're going to take a sharp left turn, and I want you to tell me about the beginning. And then you're gonna tell me more, but how did you meet, and I can very quickly, this happens within the first 15 minutes of the session, I can see how good of a place they're in, because of how they're telling that story. And it doesn't mean that they actually have to make the story flowery, but it's do they see it in a positive light or a negative light. And so a couple that's in a really good place, they might have actually met in a really horrible way. So they might say something like, you know, it's a really horrible story, actually, we met because, you know, my dad was dying in the ER. And, you know, she ended up she was the nurse, and it was really bad, the hospital was a mess, and they weren't being compassionate, and everything was horrible, but she was there. And I remember her. And I remember that being something where I felt like I had somebody who cared, right, but if they're not in a good place, that same exact story is going to be related as my dad was dying in the hospital, and she was a nurse. And, you know, I guess then I thought maybe she was gonna, like, be a light, but I think we probably just trauma bonded. And

Robin | Now it's like turning into a negative.

Elizabeth | Back, the hospital was a flipping mess, which makes sense, because she always signs up for these jobs. And like, they're always a mess. And she's always complaining about them. And so honestly, it's kind of the same as it is now. So really, the way that the exact same story could be relayed as it was a beautiful moment, or it was a really hard moment. But I saw this person in a positive light, or I see this person in a negative light, even then has a lot to do with where they are in that current moment.

Robin | And that would obviously dictate or guide you on where to start. Like there's bigger issues underneath. Like, you know, communication is a skill that absolutely we can all benefit and learn from and do better, do better. But if they're so if they're in a positive, they're telling the story positively, you're probably gonna go in that direction. I'm not trying to do your job here, Liz, but I'm like, I kind of see how, you know where, where you would be guided to help a couple when they're not in a good place compared to where you're like, oh, this actually there is they're talking positively about each other. They're just they need some more skills.

Elizabeth | Exactly. So I mean, obviously, there might be a few other things but when people and you can see it even right like yeah,

Robin | Yes in their body and they tolerate. You know, you tell the story.

Elizabeth | They laugh and they they correct each other in a cute way like That's not true, I was the one who went in and did that that was like Suzy or whatever. So you can kind of see that. And then what you know, is, wow, these are people who they have a foundation of friendship, they have a foundation of, I actually see this person in mostly a positive light. And I see our story in mostly a positive light. And so what they're probably really looking for is, can you help us to build on that foundation, like I want to keep respecting a person, I want to keep this story going. And I'm a little bit worried about the skills that we have, right now. Somebody who's in a place where they're like, that's not how I remember the story. And I've worked with a lot of couples where I actually have to like say, is there anything else you could tell me? What did you find attractive, you must have found something attractive to ask for their number. I can't even remember, I can't even remember what I found attractive. You know, in those moments, it's like, wow, something happened here. That is not just about skills. It probably happened because of a lack of skills. But something has happened here where there's like a wound. And that wound has created a door that's open to contempt and resentment, and lack of respect, and all of these things. And those things are going to have to be healed, before anything else is really going to absolutely.

Robin | So I love how you explain in your book about the stages of relationship. And I think it's important. Like I really, like I said, You're an amazing teacher, Liz. And I think I would love it if you could walk us through those stages. Because, like, even how you explain infatuation, like I was like, Oh, that makes perfect sense. Like, I don't, we don't need to get a whole bunch of time for that. But I actually would like to, can you can you please tell us about the four stages of relationship because it does, how you start a relationship, like we don't realize what's going on even in our brains. And like, I just love how you explained it.

Elizabeth | So please, please do that can you know, there's a lot of ways that people describe the stages of relationships, but they all follow this, right? So we start out with infatuation. Or somebody else might call it puppy love, or lust or whatever. But you're really into this other person. And you're actually kind of being biologically driven towards them, right. And because of that biological drive, to want to partner with a person, all of these hormones are flushing through their body, your body. And actually, there have been studies that show that those hormones are the hormones that make us see everything through rose colored glasses. So when we look at a kitten, or a dog or a cute baby, and it's like, my baby is so beautiful, right? And then sometimes I look at pictures of my baby from five years ago, and I'm like, that isn't the cutest.

Robin | But it's biological. That's what that's one thing that I was. So that really was reinforced for me was how so much of what we are experiencing in the infatuation stage is biological. Yeah. And it's like your mind is not right.

Elizabeth | And I think like, truly sometimes I look back at like a photo of my baby who is the most beautiful baby in the world, of course, but it'll be a picture that I like sent to my friends like, oh my god, don't you think he could be a Gerber Baby? And I look at it now. And I'm like, yep, didn't have good lighting. Like,

Robin | It's so funny. Just the other day, my daughter showed me a picture of her holding my son when he was like six weeks old. And of course, I thought he was like, the most amazing, most beautiful baby in the world. And I'm like, oh my god, he looks like such an old man. Like, I'm like, Oh my God. Like it's so funny. Like, now I see that. But I didn't see it back then for sure.

Elizabeth | No, you're like texting everybody. Like look at just be. So this thing is happening more being driven towards someone we're interested in, where it's like, everything they do is amazing. So they leave that towel on the floor. And it's word of mouth thinking no big deal. Oh, disgusting. slob, that third bedroom by smells like mildew. We're like, Wow, there's so laid back. It's so romantic. This feels so European. We're just laying in bed all day. We're, like very drawn to connect. And so our bodies minimize negative or our brains minimize negatives, and they maximize anything that's good. And we see all of the good and we defend all the good and all of those things.

Robin | So the reason I wanted to ask you about this particular lens is because if you're dating, right and even when all of us when we first start like you know I'm married in the beginning, of course everything was roses, butterflies, rainbows. And yeah, I'm sure like for him to like, you know, I have no false, right? But it's the red flag. Thanks. Right? Yeah, you are you may not be seeing in somebody else you're not seeing. You're ignoring.

Elizabeth | Yeah, even if you do, which is sometimes why like those red flag lists, they're hard for the actual person in it. Because even if you do your brain is literally finding ways to make them positives. So it's like, yeah, that's a red flag list, but not for this person. Because for this person, it means this other thing. So when you're dating, it's really important to have this things actually, because, like I said, if you have a really good, positive experience in the beginning, that is a great foundation for 15 years down the road, when there's conflict, you can say, I remember you, you were wonderful, you're still wonderful, we have so much fun. And something that Dr. Alexandra Solomon, actually, we were doing a live one she said that I thought was really helpful, is just taking time to reflect after you spend time with that person, when those chemicals are coming down, can be really helpful. So even if that means journaling, you know, after the date, and really writing down like this is actually some of the questions that I had after that, or this is actually how I'm feeling right now can make it so that you're not getting so swept up all of the time in those in those hormones. If you decide to meet, if you make it through that stage, and it you decide you want to continue on the next thing that usually happens between people is a period of tension. So this is when people tend to start kind of like questioning things, they are frustrated that the other person isn't like them. A lot of the stuff that didn't bother them all of a sudden becomes a problem. So you know, when I met my husband, he was living with a group of guys still. And they had one of those gross guy showers. You know what I'm talking about? Yes,

Robin | You're there's no way you're stepping in that? Yeah. Yeah. Unacceptable. Yeah.

Elizabeth | Yeah, it was like, so it's so weird looking back, like I was like, I'll just wipe it down and take a shower. It's okay. And then as we really we were living together and all of those types of things. All of a sudden, I start caring, right? And I'm like, Why does our shower look like this? I would never leave it this way. Yeah, you should be. Why don't you wipe it down after you get out of it, you know, just things where I'm expecting this person to be really different than they were before. And this is a period of time where a lot of people break up, because, and that's okay, they recognize these moments of tension are not what I can move forward with. And it's also a period of time where you have a lot of opportunity to really start to connect with each other and communicate with each other. There is within this like, realization, right? So I'm realizing who you really are, I'm realizing that you are a separate person from me. And I'm realizing that there are things that I do and I don't like so this realization and this tension phase, it is a time where people are kind of like, I don't know, if I want to be with this person, and they're moving back and forth. And then ultimately, if you get through those stages, you move into this, like secure attachment phase. And that that's where you're saying, I actually see who you are. And it's not all perfect. And I accept that you never know you're never going to be the person who cares as much about whether the grass is tall as I care about it. You're never going to be the person that wants to spend five hours at a dinner with friends the way I want to, but I'm not going to get mad at you about it anymore. We're going to try to figure out how to connect on this. Throughout our relationships, we move through that like tension and realization, especially at different transition phases. Right? So I accepted a lot of things about my partner in this acceptance and attachment phase. And then we had a baby. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, yeah, they see who you are. And him too, right? It's like, oh, like, who are you? You aren't the person that I married. I mean, there were conversations like that that we had, right? Like, this isn't who I thought that you were, and I'm like, This is how I, this is who I am when I'm breastfeeding. And then you have to go through that tension again. And so you're moving in and out of these phases over and over and over again throughout your relationship.

Robin | Wow. So you say relationships thrive on responsiveness. and die with dismissiveness. Yes. So, you know, and this is something that, you know, Jodie talks about to, you know, her books called feeling seen. And she said, like, you know, and you say the same thing like we want to be seen in our relationships. And our connection dies when we feel dismissed and unseen. Yeah, right. So I want to ask you about ambivalence, and how damaging that is in relationships and how you see that in your practice with with couples and how that shows up and manifests and then how that can be such a damaging thing in a relationship.

Elizabeth | Yeah, it's interesting, you would think that really loud conflict would be the most damaging, but it's actually the turning away the dismissiveness and ambivalence that's the most harmful. The Gottman Institute did a study on this. And they found that there's three ways that we respond when people want us to turn toward them in positive and happy moments and sad moments, too. We either respond by turning towards, which can be as simple as somebody saying, Oh, it's a beautiful day. And we turn towards by saying,

Robin | Yeah, you're right. It is. Yeah.

Elizabeth | And that's it. That's all you have to do. And yes,

Robin | It can be that simple. Right?

Elizabeth | You can turn against by saying, what? I hate gray days, you know, I guess Yeah. Beautiful day, what are you talking about? And then you can turn away by just not saying anything right now. Huge problem with that is you look at your cell phone, you just keep scrolling, you don't even hear what the other person said. So obviously, turning against and turning away are both harmful, that turning away is actually more harmful. Because there is no energy. At least if I say to you, I love your shirt. And you say don't comment on my shirt. At least I can say, Oh, I'm so sorry. Like, I didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. And maybe we can still connect even after you kind of rejected me. If you've seen nothing, that I'm left in my head going just Pravin care about what I just said, or is weird or whatever. And over time, I actually stopped making attempts. Because I know.

Robin | That is, that right there is a big problem.

Elizabeth | A huge problem. And with the cell phone thing, it's a really big problem. Because what happens over time is then I say, Well, if you're sitting on your phone, I'll just sit on mine. And so I'm not even going to reach out anymore. I see your scrolling, all scroll, and I'm not going to share stories from my day, I'm not going to share my plans, I'm not going to share my thoughts. I'm just going to go within within myself. And so the disconnect, and this cascade into like isolation for both people is really powerful when that's happening on a on a chronic level.

Robin | Oh my god, it makes me sad just thinking about it. But yes, it mean that this happens. Yeah. Yeah. So I really like how you explain interdependence. And you break it down, I you know, because the one insight that I gained, like so many insights lives, I loved your book, but one of the insights I gained was around the positives of dependence. And then you flip it, okay, if you're too dependent, so So you first you break it down by dependence and independence. And then you're talking about how in a very healthy relationship, you want to have interdependence. So can you go through those concepts for us, please, because I just love how you explained it.

Elizabeth | So you know, when I was growing up, you like learn like, oh, this foods unhealthy that foods unhealthy and like, my mom was always great at being like, they're all fine, just don't have too much in moderation, right? Yes, ice cream is amazing. Eat it every day, just don't eat the entire tub. So that's the same theory here, right? Independence is amazing. dependence is amazing. But if you're living just fully in either those areas, you're going to really impact your relationship. So interdependence, is the ability to balance both of those things in a relationship. So healthy independence. If you think about a small child, the moment they come into the world, they are trying to figure out healthy independence. You know, they take their first breath that's independent, and that moment, you aren't, they are no longer in a belly. They are out in the world independently breathing. That's amazing. And your job as a parent, is to let them learn to walk to let them learn to have social time without you too. So independence is really healthy. But dependence is necessary to you know if my son when he was two needed to zip his rain jacket, and I said, you're independent. Now it's your own job. Too bad. Ever zipped it right. If I can let them practice, I can let them try. But I'm going to let them depend on me and say, Mommy, I can't sit my jacket. Now, adults are no different. If I need independence, I need space to myself, I need to be able to go after my own hobbies, to learn new things to think private thoughts, all of those types of things. That's really, really important. But there's also times where I need to be able to go to my partner, and I need to be able to say, I have no idea what to do. I know, I'm usually the one in charge of the bills, I have no idea what to do this month, can you help me? Or I feel so sick, I cannot get up this morning. And, you know, can you actually call my work for me because I can't even call like, let them know, I'm not going to be there. So we need both. The problem is, is that sometimes when we're growing up, we learn to lean into one or the other because of anxiety. And so maybe we didn't have people who when we asked for help, maybe they didn't help us. So we learned, that's not a safe thing that asked for, it's also not a productive thing to ask for. So I don't need anybody, I'm fine on my own. We might also have always felt like for whatever reason, maybe we had hover parents, or maybe we never felt confident in our own abilities, or we were abandoned. And so we have a lot of anxiety, if I want you to be close, I have to manage and control this relationship at all costs. And so we become codependent, right, which is a sign, I'm focused, I think that my job is to regulate this other person's behaviors and emotions and all of those types of things. And if they show independence, or if I show independence, there's something wrong here. Because we can only be, you know, a fixed at the hip, or we're really going to be running into trouble. And so when you're in a relationship, you kind of just want to be asking yourself, Am I doing things for myself? Still? Am I Am is my partner? Are we allowed to have, you know, time where we're thinking on our own? And where our own ambitions and hobbies and all of those types of things are honored? And do we have a relationship where we can depend on each other?

Robin | Yes. So we don't have a lot of time left, but I wanted to talk about self loss in a relationship, because I think that this can happen and has happened to me, I remember, like, you know, some of my relationships when I was growing up, like, you know, as a teen and like, early 20s. Absolutely. I lost myself in many ways, I was bending over backwards to appease the other person, right, which I think is quite common. And so what what what happens with self loss and relational? You know, you say self loss can lead to relational loss. Absolutely. Yeah. But how does this you know, I think about, like, how does this happen over time, because sometimes it's just like a trickle effect it just slowly, slowly, you're losing pieces of yourself, you're losing your voice, you're losing your ability to speak up because you want to, you don't want to upset the applecart. And I think something like do you think a lot of that has to do with us giving up our core values? In some cases? Yeah.

Elizabeth | Yes. And there's multiple reasons that happens.

Robin | Yes. I would love to hear you. Yes, please tell us.

Elizabeth | Three off the top of my head. One is that it's really easy to have it happen in that infatuation phase. And that is where i i look back into my 20s. And, you know, every guy I dated, I suddenly liked the music they liked, you know, and that was just totally small, silly example. Like, all of a sudden, I'd be like, oh, yeah, I love this band. And like, let's go to the concert not just I want to support your, your like of this band. Like I like it even though it didn't really work. Or, yeah, don't worry about the food I like we'll get I love interesting food. I know you like you know, just getting a hamburger. So sure we can just get a hamburger every Friday and our I don't believe in the things you're saying. Like that would be something I'd really struggle with somebody that I liked would do something that I really didn't agree with, like, their belief or their behavior or something like that. But I really liked them. So I wouldn't say anything. Or maybe I would like play along or whatever. I mean, if it was really egregious I could step out of it. But there would be things were just Oh, yeah, like maybe people who do have you know that many kids maybe that is silly, even though I'm like, don't think that at all right. So that can happen during that infatuation phase. Another time it can happen is when you've entered a period of time with your partner, where there is some sort of kind of social built in social obligation, you believe you have to be a specific way, even if necessarily you and your partner don't intellectually believe that. So a really common example would be you have kids. And you and your partner went into it thinking we're going to be really egalitarian. And we're going to help each other and that, and all of a sudden, two years has gone by and you're like, where am I? You know, why am I the only one carrying the mental load and doing the emotional labor? That is not what I thought I was going to do, but I've done it. And sometimes it has nothing to do with having a bad partner, or yourself being a bad partner. It has to do with you fell into a role that was really easy to fall into.

Robin | Yes. And time goes out and time has gone on. And now it's like you find yourself in this. Now it's like, how do i There's no backpedaling out of it. It's just like, I'm not happy with this situation. I'm resentful. Like, yeah, I can see that.

Elizabeth | Yeah. And then actually, there's two more. So the third would be there's a major stress, major stressor, or like, somebody gets really sick or something, and you just have to, so I call those like that, you just had to do it, there's, it was actually a survival mechanism, your partner had cancer, and you had to lose yourself for a year so that they would stay alive. That was just it, let's figure out what to do next. And then obviously, last is abuse. So people who are in abusive relationships, they can be manipulated to the point where they don't even know what they want anymore who they are, because life is so confusing. So it's super common. It is really common. In even relationships that are good. It can be because there was a transition. And it's not about saying what's wrong with me, or I'm so mad at myself for this or any of that. But when you recognize it, being able to figure out like, what can I start to do to take some of myself back and to have parts of myself emerge in my life and in this relationship.

Robin | So what happens is when you're working with couples, and you, you, they identify that they there, they are so misaligned in different core values like that is something like let's say you're you've been together for 10 years. And this is something that I've realized is so integral to me, and it's so important to me, and they're not budging. Or it's like maybe it's just like so what about that, because your values are? I mean, when I was a matchmaker, it was something that I was I really talked to I love coaching, I've talked to a lot of my clients about, like, what are your values? A lot of people would say the same things, right? Friends and family, and children and travel. And you know, like, I don't like you know, you're kind of you're not 100% sure what your value, like you're not really, really clear on Yeah. And you get into a relationship with somebody and you're like, oh, that thing right there that I am. This is really important to me. It's like, you can only have so many discussions about it. And you're like, but this is me. It's not just like a want. It's a need.

Elizabeth | Yeah, yeah. The Gottman say that those types of things are so core to you that removing them would be like removing your bones from your body. You just couldn't do it. And if you did, you've just become a big floppy mess. So it's really important to be able to still live out your core values in a relationship. When people have opposing values, the first thing that we do is we see if there's any way to get them from the gridlock with that, which is it means to be able to step back and say, I'm actually going to respect that you have different values than me. And I'm going to try to understand your philosophy. I'm going to try to understand like what a life looks like, if it's led that way, you're going to try to really understand like, what's the fear, if you don't have that what happens and then you flip and I'm the other person is going to try to understand their partner on the same thing. And hopefully, what you can do is come to a compromise that allows both people to live out their values. A big example of this would be I value financial security. And the other person says, I actually value really being able to take risks with money and to spend it while you're alive and tomorrow I might die. So what do I care and cup a couple could sadly decide that that difference just means they can't be together. What can happen though, my husband and I actually have this value difference is being able to say like each of you if you ruled the world, what do you believe people should do with money? And you know, I would say I think they should spend it have fun, you could get hit by a car tomorrow, just you know, have some to keep yourself safe. But yeah, spending, and my husband would say, I think you should save it. I don't think you need to spend it on very much. I think you should find happiness in life that's not attached to spending money. And that's very important to me. And then being able to go one step further and saying, like, what so where did that philosophy come from? And this is a really powerful conversation for people and they have a different value, because you can start to empathize. So I would say, by parents were very floofy with money, and it actually always ended up working out. And my happiest moments, were the moments that we went on the impromptu vacation that we didn't plan for, or when we randomly went out to dinner, or when, you know, my dad brought home, a random new car.

Robin | A new car. Yeah, that's 1980. And I'll find that was it just a way to go, right.

Elizabeth | And my husband would say, I grew up being afraid all the time, that we didn't have enough money, and not having what other people had and having to really learn that I can be happy, even if I don't have what other people have. And so then suddenly, my husband can say, Liz, I totally get you. Like, that makes sense. I want to fun life for us, too. And I can say I get you I want in life, that's not scary. And that doesn't make you feel like we're at risk. And so then you can move into a conversation that's like, Well, how do we it? Can we together have a life around money that is both spontaneous and secure? And what does that look like? And you can start to come up with all sorts of ideas, you know, we'll we'll have our spontaneity bank account and spend away, do whatever you want with it. And then we have our secure account, or whatever. But sometimes you have this conversation, and the couple might say, we, we can't compromise, it won't come together. There's absolutely nothing about what Liz believes that I believe, and I won't budge, and I'm not willing to integrate their perspective into my perspective. And that that's the point where you have to say, we'll do then, except this is very different, it's probably going to irritate you forever, and you're not going to come up with a solution. And for whatever, for whatever reason, you might decide yes. Or do you say I think that we need to part ways. Because we can't, we can't come to some sort of acceptance or some sort of compromise.

Robin | So in the book, you have a section, I mean, this is this, so much of the way we relate to another person is about how we look and treat ourselves. Right. Yeah. So the self love piece is just so important. But I also think it's misunderstood. And, and just even how important it is to and what it means to truly love yourself and heal yourself. I mean, it's a lifelong journey, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I'm still healing, and I probably won't be till the day I die. But you say that when you begin to work on yourself, something beautiful happens. As your your the relationship you have with yourself. You reveal the nature of what your partnership truly is, I thought this was quite you say if your relationship feels worse, as you're healing, you didn't cause it, you just created space to see it. And it feels better. It's because of that space you've created to. So I thought in closing, I would ask you to explain that because I was like, Whoa, that's such a big concept. But I need you to please explain that to us. So that like because I make it makes sense in one way. But I'm like, how does that translate? How do you see that in your, in your experience?

Elizabeth | Yeah, so I work with couples and individuals. And when I was in rituals, one thing that will happen, and I do want to put the caveat, as you said earlier that self care isn't what we usually think it is. So if you are saying self care is like spending a bazillion dollars on yourself and like saying, I don't care about anybody in my life. I'm gonna do whatever I want and your relationships feel worse. That's on you. Yes. If you're actually doing self care, which at its baseline is taking care of your basic needs. So if you're, you know, saying to a friend, I'm really trying to save money and so I can't go to that Taylor Swift concert. It's $2,000 for the ticket. I wish I could and if your friend writes back, while that's really flipping rude, I thought we had this plan together. You didn't really cause that kind of tumultuous dynamic by saying that, but what you did was you, you didn't mask it anymore. So prior, you likely were masking that there was this dynamic, you would say to your friend, yes, I'll pay the $2,000 for the Taylor Swift tickets, because I know, I know I can't, but I'm going to do it because this person's going to yell at me if I don't. And so you were masking it. So yes, it probably felt okay, you would go to the concert, you would have fun, everything would be all right. But then suddenly, you've you've worked on in therapy, I'm not going to spend money I don't have. And so you say to your friend, I'm not going to spend money I don't have and your friend gets really mad at you and stops inviting you places and all of those types of things. That was always there. And you actually felt that that was there, which is why you couldn't take care of yourself in that relationship, because you knew it would cause conflict. And so if you're noticing, I can't take care of myself in this relationship. And when I do take care of my needs, when I say, you know, I, I can't stay out that late, or I'm really exhausted, or I can't take on another house project, honey, because it's going to completely overburden me, and the other person isn't able to navigate that with you. And I'm not saying that they can't have a human reaction, right? Your friend's initial reaction might be what disappointment or shock,

Elizabeth | I thought we had a plan. But if they come back around and say, Hey, I didn't, I didn't mean to do that you have every right not to spend this money, that's great. But if there's these patterns of every time I take care of myself, this isn't masked anymore. And it becomes really hurtful or really challenging or really painful, then you're just kind of uncovering what you were what you were hoping to mask for so long.

Robin | Wow, I really liked how you put that if you are not able to take care of your if you're if you're relationship you're having with somebody else doesn't allow you to take care of yourself or honor yourself fully, then that's definitely you know, something you need to be aware of and be work on. Right? Yeah. Wow. That's a really, really good way to look at it. Well, this, you know, and we started our conversation with this. I mean, this is all like our, everything takes practice, and to be good at something, you need to keep working at it. And I think that's why we're doing what we're doing. And we're you what you're doing in the world is helping people with such important such an important, important skills is for us to love ourselves and honor ourselves in the best way and love each other in the best ways. But all that requires a heck of a lot of work and skill. It's not easy. No, it's very complicated. And you have to give yourself grace. Like, like you said, in beginning you have to be patient with yourself and compassionate like this. You know, I've been doing this for years and meeting people every week and learning these skills. But trust me, it's like, but I do recognize them like, oh, Robin, you do that differently. Good for you good pat on the back. Or like, you know, like, it doesn't happen overnight transformation is sometimes a very long time.

Elizabeth | I didn't scream this time. Good job, Liz.

Robin | Right. All right. Well, thank you so much for your time was, yeah, it is a long journey. Yeah. And I just, I look forward to continue to learn from you and people can go to your Instagram Liz lissons. And your website and your book. Everybody has to read this book. And I wouldn't listen to it and read it because but I love having it in my library. I want this to work, an inclusive guide to navigating the most difficult relationship issues we face in the modern age. And we'll make sure to put this on our website, but I really believe that everybody should have this in their toolbox for relationship advice. So thank you.

Elizabeth | Thank you so much for having me.

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Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey