Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 4 Episode #2 with Michaela Boehm | Transcript

01.06.23

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme| Today I had the joy of speaking with someone I have admired from afar. Since watching her on Gwyneth Paltrow's Netflix show Sex, Love and Goop. Michaela Boehm teaches and counsels internationally as an expert in intimacy and relationships. She is a gifted speaker and counselor, her unique body of work centers on the intersection of intimacy and embodiment. Michaela is the author of The Wild Woman's Way, which is a guide to helping us reconnect to our body's innate wisdom. I've been applying the skills Michaela teaches in my own life. She guides us to live a more embodied life. Use our intuition and connect to ourselves and each other more deeply. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, let's talk love.

Robin Ducharme | Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk love. I'm so excited to welcome our beautiful guest today. Michaela Boehm. Thank you for joining us, Michaela.

Michaela Boehm | Oh, Hello, and thanks for having me.

Robin | This is really exciting. I met you on the screen. I didn't meet you in person. But I was introduced to you when I was watching Love Sex and Goop. And I absolutely loved that show. And you're a part in it. And, you know, you like I learned so much watching that series. And over the last few weeks, I've been reading your book, The Wild Woman's Way, and continue my journey of learning from you Michaela. And I just wanted to say like, I just, I love the work you're doing in the world. And I'm just excited to talk about talk to you and, and continue continue learning from you. You know, it's funny, because every week I interview, a different relationship expert. And I think there's something beautiful and synchronistic about the work that we're doing. Because when I when I read the books, and then I interview the expert, it's like that this is what I needed to learn at this exact time in my life. And can you talk to us about your book and what it's about? Why you why you wrote the book?

Michaela Boehm | Yes, well, it's the hopefully one of many to come. Because it's kind of a first entry into a body of work that I've created over more than 25 years now. And the wild woman's way is essentially the aspect of my work that deals with rewilding, you know, rewilding, in the context of bringing the body back into not only life, but relationship pleasure, you know, the engagement with others, not only, you know, from a relationship standpoint, but also of who we are in the world and how we navigate our various relationships. And so it was really meant to be a manual for women in the 21st century, and the demands that we have on our bodies and our you know, emotions and our minds, in the context of it being so busy and there being so much doing and so little bit, so little, I should say, you know, of the being and relaxing and having the aspects that are dear to most of us.

Robin | Yes. And this is what you're this was what I was reminded of while I was reading and listening, I listened to your book, and I read it at the same time, which is my favorite thing to do. Because I love thank you for narrating your own book that is so important. When you hear your voice and your intuition, or your intonation and, and your intuition. Coming through. When somebody's listening to you. It's that is so powerful. And I love this. You're just such a great storyteller. You share a lot of stories in your book about you start off talking about yourself as a little girl growing up in Austria, and I can picture it right you say I grew up like you know the sound of music, the beautiful fields of the flowers and the scenery, and you could just picture it right. And you see when you were a little girl. You aspired to be a witch. You said I wanted to be a witch and you were so connected to the land, and flowers and animals and your love for animals. And that was, that's just a beautiful picture. And I think what I gleaned from that was around this idea that even when we're little like we have these dreams, these aspirations, and our gifts come out, right? And somehow, in our adult lives, and throughout, you know, going through life, we lose weight, some of us can we lose that sense of where we are really born to do and where we were naturally inclined to be and do in the world, which is what you're helping people come back to is like, what are your gifts? And what do you are you naturally inclined to be in the world?

Michaela Boehm | Right, yeah, I think yes, for you. And I'm very passionate about that, particularly in the context of who we are when it comes not only to relationship but to who we are in the world. Because a lot of times, we're told we're not enough of this, or this part of us is sufficient is not sufficient, or we should change and a lot of the personal growth industry, of course, is all about, if you could just change this or have this breakthrough, you'd be okay. And the whole concept of rewilding is essentially coming back to our original nature. And with that, of course, to who we really are, when we're not forced to be whatever, right? That the thing that society or our own conditioning, or other people's conditioning forces us to be. And so that's, it's, I think, very important that when we kind of remember who we really are, that's a gift to everyone, including ourselves.

Robin Ducharme | Absolutely. So you, you had a like you said, You've had decades of experience working with people and in psychology and helping them as a counselor, as a therapist, and as a healer, right. So you I love the story of how you like you were so passionate with your teacher, who you traveled around Germany, follow following and learning from her and studying psychology, and then you lan. Can you talk to us about your practice in Los Angeles, and how you came to that point in your life after so many years of doing it, and being so busy and, you know, eight hours of work working in therapy with these high, influential clients. And then at night, you're working more and more, because you're, you've got a very busy practice that you're running in a very busy place of Los Angeles down, right. And then you decided, okay, this is this, this can't be for me anymore. I need to rewild almost you started your own process of rewilding and moving to the country where you've got this home now. Can you share a little bit about your story?

Michaela | I mean, you pretty much told the story. But but to elaborate on that I've done an enormous amount of client hours of time, over 30 5000s, one on one client hours. And a fair share of that was some really heavy duty clinical focus on you know, I mean, always oriented towards relationships. But I've done quite a bit of work with very traumatized populations, and in the context of, you know, addiction and abusive things as well. So my background is both in the classical, let's say, relationship counseling domain, but it's also in the trauma therapy, and, and working in, you know, in the realms of it not been so good. And that, of course, takes a toll on on the body and the mind as well. And so, about 10 or 12 years into doing that, I decided I needed a bit more space as well. And I found this gorgeous, gorgeous property about an hour and a half north of Los Angeles. And I eventually transitioned. And that transition in itself was both excruciating and miraculous in the sense that I still maintained an apartment and an office in West Hollywood, and I lived out here and the gap got bigger and bigger, and I had to kind of, you know, eventually make some decisions around not doing you know, the office anymore. And that process was very instructional because nowadays, of course, I know that it's possible to do both. If you have enough, practice in both realms, but back then, of course, I didn't have enough practice in both realms, meaning I didn't have that strong of a connection in nature because West Hollywood isn't exactly a place of neck nature anymore. It's very loud and very full. And so, you know, now I get to be here and be in nature, but I also get to do business towns and travel and, you know, kind of being in the world, and I can come back to a place of rest, I can also find that place of rest more internal, but it took the coming back to nature, you know, externally first before I could come back to nature internally.

Robin | Yeah. Beautiful. I love this story of just how you had the property came into your life, and then your community gathered around, you know, the neighbors that came in and help support your move. It's just beautiful. So you're, you are helping women and men rewild and you talk about a wild woman archetype? Can you explain to us really what an archetype is? And what the wild woman archetype is?

Michaela | Yes, I can. So Well, first of all, archetypes in general, right are essentially a way to bring collective experiences into from the subconscious or in Jung would call it the collective unconscious, into conscious awareness. And so when something is raised from the kind of more instinctive in the body, in the subconscious aspect, to the conscious aspect, we can, of course, examine it, and we can make sense of things. And we can also find ourselves within the archetype because we all have all these parts of us. So archetypes are very, very useful lens for self exploration. And furthermore, archetypes are a way for us to link into a wisdom that's already been mined, or discovered, or, you know, brought into existence that we can kind of lean into or, or make use of. So when we look at archetypes in general, it's kind of a really useful way to look at what have what have humans experienced for millions of years, essentially. And then from there, we can pick archetypes as a means of engaging with certain slices of that experience. And so myths and archetypes, you know, these go hand in hand, are very useful as an as a tool for self exploration, which I personally love a lot and work with a lot because it's kind of a sideways entrance. And it's not as full on and allows each person to find themselves without being forced to, you know, confront something head on, which is sometimes not possible. So that is that that's to be said about archetypes. And now the wild woman archetype specifically, it's kind of it's, it's a bit deceiving in the context of people think it's like this crazy, you know, spitting nails, clawing at the wall, madwoman, and you always hear this right from people who haven't really kind of fully engaged with it, but really what the wild woman archetype is, and it's not just for women, you know, we are all archetypes of plot apply to all humans. But the wild woman archetype is specifically the archetype that connects us back to nature, and nature as in our original nature, meaning who we are as a human, and how we our talents and gifts arise, but also nature as in the part of us, that's ancient, but our bodies have kept us alive and kept us thriving for much longer than we had brains like fat, you know, hyper developed brains. So that part of us that is essentially connected to instinct connected to how to live and thrive and survive in, in the world. That's the wild woman and furthermore, the wild woman is the part of us that is connected to rhythms, our own good, you know, could be menstrual cycles or circadian rhythms are things of that nature and then how our body will relate with the natural world, meaning, the rising and falling of tides, the moon, seasons, sunlight versus, you know, the sun going down. Nowadays, of course, there's lots of research on circadian rhythms and how they are important for humans, particularly in this moment in time with artificial lights and things like that. So that's the art archetype and was in that archetype does a vast exploration of who are we when we get to be us? And then also, how are we connected to nature? And how can we use that connection for not only Optimal Living but also thriving?

Robin | Yes. And you, you say the wild woman is an antidote to the common self development fallacy, which operates on not being enough, and you touched on that, right? It's like, it's true, you say not not not being enough is big business, it absolutely is, we're just so drowned by these ideas that we have to be thin. And we have to be career women, but also excellent mothers. And you can and you say, this is like, we're, you're just so wrapped up in who we should be, according to social norms, that you also see, you can't you can't be at all, you can't do it all. So we have to be way more realistic about that. As women, it's like making choices that are that are aligned with what we truly, truly want. And a lot of us sometimes don't know what we want, that has to. That's, that's, that's really, that's a really important understanding.

Michaela | It is very liberating, when you understand that you don't have to be everything. And also that you can learn to have different aspects available and switch back and forth.

Robin | Yeah. So this, there's, there's so many different concepts in this book that you teach. And I just like one of one of them, which made such such sense to me and like, was quite like a good way, a simplistic way to look at this is like, we so much of us are stuck in go mode, that we're no longer in flow, right? It's like go versus flow. And I thought, and it makes sense, right? Like, if you're, for instance, with me with my work, and I'm sure you you to Mikayla sometimes it's like you're you're sitting on your on your computer, if you're doing interviews all day, or whatever, you are all in your head, you're not in your body. And you're giving people tools on how to come back more. And so it makes sense that you're not being able to tap into the wisdom of your body, if it's all in your head, which a lot of us operate from a lot of our days, right?

Michaela | Yeah. So yes, I mean, there's so much in here, but one of the things that's very important, and that's why I call it go and flow, and not, you know, some of the previous tropes used in this context, like masculine feminine, for instance, I don't use those terms, specifically, because they have nothing to do with masculine and feminine meaning man and woman, you know, so and often when people use those terms interchangeably, there's a real suffering, they're both in creating kind of a separation of ourselves with ourselves, and also with the external genders and things of that nature. So what I call go is essentially the part of us that gets stuffed down. And you know, meaning everything that has to do with being on the computer, guiding things, making things happen, checking things off lists, you know, giving struck like strategy or going places, what we are doing right now should really go in the context of we're both thinking, we're looking, we're speaking, where, you know, getting something done, and go happens in that upper part of the body. And that's important to understand, because what happens in the lower part of the body, when we are up here very engaged, is the lower part of the body is essentially parked. And what I mean was parked is you don't need much energy in the lower part of the body. And when the country, when the energy is needed up here, it needs to be pulled from the lower part of the body, because we have a finite amount of energy per second, as human beings. So the body is incredibly energy efficient. And wherever we don't need energy, it's being pulled from an allocated where we need it. And that is not a problem. And that's why I don't like this, oh, you're in your masculine, you're not in your masculine, you're simply using energy where it's needed. That's neither a good thing or a bad thing. It's the thing that the body does. So at the same time, when we do need the energy further down in our body, we typically need that energy further down in the body for things like, pleasure, intuition, boundary setting, sourcing, extra power, you know, grounding, all of those things that happen in the lower body, which is what I call flow, relaxation, enjoyment. But technically flow, of course, is the part of us that essentially is connected with the body because all the, let's say, reproductive and active aspects that have to do with the body are in the lower part of the body, both for enjoyment, but also for survival. So when we are constantly up here, we don't need down there, that's perfectly fine. When we need to be either in you know, in a pleasurable state or in a body state, for whatever reason, we need the energy down here. And typically, if we would be living different kinds of lives, we would have both of these faculties available freely, and some people still do. But for most of us, because we do so much GO, GO has become the pattern because of course, everything you do often, through repetition builds a pattern. So now you have a body, emotion, mind habit pattern that keeps you up here all the time. And that's where the energy also pools when it's constantly happens, which is why we all have tight shoulders and neck and jaw and hit and restart, that becomes your primary, go to pattern. And then when you want to have flow, that pattern isn't as developed, it's a little bit I always liken it with bodybuilders, right? You see bodybuilders who have like these massive upper bodies, and then they have these spindly little legs, because they don't actually train their legs depart. And it's a joke, right? It's a trope, but it is a bit like that we do we train the goal muscle all the time. But we don't train the flow muscle as often. And so our lower body is energetically spindly legged, so to speak. And then of course, when we want to do the things that we're really enjoying, like, you know, creative endeavors, or connection, or sex or pleasure, or, you know, engaging with our senses, where we have atrophied flow muscles, so to speak. And so in, in my book, and in the work I do outside of the book, as well, because I work with the same principles in relationship and with men and within the context of trauma. What what I look at is, how do you strengthen flow? If you need more flow? And how do you make the flow practice such that it can be incorporated, even in the busiest of go days, and that's been kind of my personal game with myself is to constantly come up with new practices that actually allow for that reversal in very quick bursts. So it's available when you need it, but it doesn't, you know, it's not more doing.

Robin | Yes. And this is what you're really talking about your wild woman's foundational practice, right? Michaela? Yes, it's integrating practices into your, into your everyday life, that will bring you back into flow, bring you back into your body, so that you can access you know, I love the fact that you know, this really what your read I learned so much about through your book is how much wisdom all of the our wisdom is in our bodies. It's in our, in our power center is like our lower pelvic region. And correct me if I'm if I'm saying this incorrectly, but your decision making, right, if you're able to live more in your body, you'll be able to make decisions more readily that that align with you, your intuition, your use, you teach different intuition, honing practices, and like you said, this is practices, these are skills that you can build, which it makes perfect sense, right? And this is why it's so important. I think that there's so many of us that are we've lost touch with making the right we're like, how do I make that decision? You're like, you're stuck. And and one way to get back into it, which is like the simple tools that you're teaching is to get back into your body. I was just anyways, it's profound. It's not complicated, but it's very important. It really is. Like I was, I want to tell you this week, I was because I work at my desk so much and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna Hi, what Michaela is teaching here, I'm gonna, like, just lay on my couch for a bit. My body is telling me I'm really tired. And I need to rest. Like, this is what I like. And you're thinking, and I'm thinking, okay, Robin, you gotta take a break. But that's not it. That's a good thing. It's a very, very good thing that my body's telling me. You just need to rest lay down and breathe deep. And how important rest is Michaela?

Michaela | Yeah, right? Yes, yes, well, there's a lot of things in what you just said. And and I think the important thing is to understand that it's not about fetishizing, the body, so to speak, is like the best of the best of the best tools. It's bringing the body back into the general, let's say, consortium of advisors, right. So what I mean by that is, we have different faculties, one of which, of course, is our body, and then our emotions and our minds. And you know, and then there's education and things like that. So one of the things that happens when we are primarily in our heads, then that becomes the biggest advisor, so to speak. And very often, even our heart is kind of put second to the mind, because the mind is just so very, very, very developed. And so what all these practices are about is to essentially avail ourselves of this real wisdom that happens in the body. And that then also encompasses more of the emotion as an available tool. But not foregoing the mind, obviously, but integrating those aspects, right. And so when you're saying, you can feel how tired you are, and you're actually laying down, that is key for let's see long term success in managing your system. Because if you're constantly overriding the body, for the sake of the mind, you'll burn out and people do it all the time, but your adrenals are fried your nervous system is no longer able to regulate itself. And that's a very bad state to be in. So we have to fairly heavily lean on body practices in the context of creating a balance. But then once that's done, then you can pick and choose what you need, right, you can sometimes make decisions with your mind that override, let's say, fatigue, but then the moment you are done with that, you can also hear the fatigue and give it space and actually rest. And you can learn the difference between let's say, habitual chronic tension, and situational tension when you need it. And you know, there's there's a lot in there where you can work with your body for really optimal performance, so to speak.

Robin | Yes, I love that. I know everybody has to read your book and listen to it as well. Because it's because it's this is just a very quick interview we're not there's no way that we're going to be getting covering everything but I you know, I just love and appreciate this story shared about your friend James and you and your you're talking about your intuition during this chapter about one of your you said he's one of your dearest friends that you like he was out of your besides your husband, he was one of the people in your life that you just like love spending time with. And you use you woke one night and you you actually saw or felt his his accidental death happen. And I don't want to I want people to read the book to hear that story, Michaela, but it demonstrated to me how powerful our intuition is, if we are able to listen and be in tune with it. That was an incredible, incredible story. And you say that our intuition is like, I love this, you say like learning about our intuition is like, we're all born with with it. Right? And some of us have like, like learning to play an instrument. Some are extraordinary musicians. Like there's some people that are just completely gifted beyond. And they can play everything and just be like concert pianists, but then there we can all learn to play an instrument with practice, practice, practice, and the more we practice something we can be better at it. And so in your in your practice, are you helping you are helping people with with learning how to hone their intuition, their skill of intuition, correct?

Michaela | Yes, I would go well, I want to say also about intuition. Of course, intuition is such a big part of what's available in the body because of course When you look at how human beings developed, right, being able to feel outside of yourself was a fundamental survival skill, right? And any mother, of course, knows that you can feel your child from a mile many, many miles away. And of course, why is that? Well, because all humans are connected in many different ways. You know, you don't even have to be very spiritual or metaphysical. Just mirror neurons in the body, right? I mean, there's so much there, that allowed us to actually survive, and anybody who's ever hunted or fished, right, knows that you can with your body feel the movement of animals, and so on, and so on. Right? So it's not exactly, you know, some highly esoteric thing when we talk about developing intuition. And I want to say that because a lot of time people think that's like the domain of psychics or something like that. And it's not, it's something that's a big part of what we are able to do. And, you know, it's very useful. And so within the context of that my entire work is essentially geared towards giving people access to the skills that they have, or to the attributes that they have naturally. And so my entire work is about skill development, essentially. Because these are all skills, right? They are not yes, they're not voodoo, or woowoo kind of things. They're all learnable skills, everything from, you know, intuition to dating to, how do you use your body for different things in different times? It's skill development, and when you take it out of the kind of magical realm of Oh, how did that happen to this is how this happens, and you can practice it. And you can actually repeat certain actions and, and practices and become sufficient. I think that's very empowering for people when they understand that.

Robin | Yes, you shared a story about a client that you're working with, who had different job offers available to her. And she, she did use she's She sat with those opportunities, I think it was between two or three opportunities. And she was going into herself and tapped into her intuition and her body and her all of her faculties and decided, Okay, this one out of the opportunities, this one feels the best. And it turned out, she made the right, which I think this is it like the more we practice, and she made the right decision. And you shared that. Within a few weeks or months. It was like that, that opportunity. The other opportunity was like the company did a quick layoff of all their new employees just like oh, well, she's like, thank goodness, I did, I did make your decision. And I followed my intuition on it. And it didn't steer me wrong. And yeah, I think we can all have, we all have similar experiences when we can really tap into our own wisdom and be like that didn't that ever? It didn't feel right, this one felt better. So can we let's talk about dating and relationships and how that, of course, we have to come full circle, because a lot of our listeners, of course, this is what they want to learn, right? How to be better in relationship. And so how do you suggest people who prepare themselves when they're while they're dating, or even before they start dating, let's say, to make the right, or let's just go with that question and see what I would love to see what you have to say about that, Michaela?

Michaela | Yeah, I mean, I think it's very important that we make some distinctions around that, right. So one aspect of getting into a relationship or maintaining a relationship is of course. Let's see how I can say this. There is psychological aspects. And then there is skill development aspects, and both need to be addressed. It's just quite interesting that mostly when people are addressed the psychological aspect, they often address it outside of the, let's say, skill development aspect. Meaning people might go to a counselor or a therapist while they're not in a relationship, or when they're in trouble in a relationship, right? These are usually the two options is that people go to a therapist when they can't get the relationship they want, or they notice that there's something that's holding them back, or they go when there's trouble, and very few people understand that. You know, it's useful to understand what's happening when you're not in, let's say, a dire straits situation. That's the first thing to say.

Robin | Yes

Michaela |Having an understanding or a roadmap is very important. I'll talk a little bit about how to do that. But then the other aspect is that of course, once you have a roadmap, you can, you can only learn by doing, meaning it's all in the skill development domain. And you can only develop a skill when you actually practice. So you know, we were talking earlier about learning an instrument, if you've never played the piano, and suddenly, I want you to play whatever, back on the piano, you're going to not be able to do that. Because you're actually unable to mobilize the motor skills, or the musical skills to play. Even if you're very musical and you know, the concerto you're not having the dexterity to play it in the way it needs to be played. This is true in relationship, it's true in sex, it's true in dating, if you don't have so to speak the motor skills or the pathways, you're going to have a very hard time, can it spontaneously be great? Absolutely. But how are you going to make it happen, you will need some skills. So there's the psychological background, and then there is the skill development aspect that happens on the job, so to speak. So I'll talk a little bit about the psychological just as a, as a means of saying that, I like in understanding your psychological aspect to having a map. And so for instance, if I'm about to go up to a salon in a Big Sur, it's like really wild and, and, you know, very overgrown up there. And you know, there's a vast stretch of land between the highway and you know, the, the mountains behind it, that's just wild. So I always think about what it must have been for the first settlers, to make it through these mountains, not knowing where they would end up since they had no idea of what was on the other side. So it's very hard to find your way, or to navigate properly if you don't have an overview. So often, doing a bit of counseling and doing a bit of exploring the psychological domain is kind of getting a big overview roadmap where you can go, I am here, here's the ocean, I gotta go that way, versus going up this way or down this way, right? So it's that simple. And it doesn't have to be this big heavy, are gonna go to therapy, I'm so fucked up, you know that kind of? You could you could look at the appropriate counseling, as a means of getting a roadmap makes it a lot easier. And then though, you have to assess which are the skills you need, and how do you get them. And long before people start dating, or go get into relationship, one of the most important skills that they can acquire is a connection with the body as a means of having proper understanding and insight into their own feelings and sensations. Because for instance, if you don't know what you're feeling, moment, by moment, you cannot set proper boundaries. Obviously, this is one of the big things that we've all I think, experienced at some point or another, where essentially, something happens and takes 20 or 30 minutes an hour or even longer, till it filters up from the body into whoa, this was actually not okay. I don't know if you've ever experienced that gap where you're in a meeting or you know, in some situation, and you're like, you know, you're just going ahead and then suddenly, half an hour later, when you're out of that situation, you're like that didn't, this didn't feel good, this wasn't okay, then it's very hard to get back to setting the boundary because time has passed. So one of the most fundamental thing that people can learn how to do and that I teach, everyone who comes in contact with me, in some way or another is becoming current with what's happening in our inner landscape. This neurosciences is called interoceptive awareness, meaning the ability to understand physical sensations, emotions and accompanying thoughts as they arise. This is also what we in our work call embodiment, because embodiment is nothing else but the the being able to listen to the messages of the body. And when that's done, the opposite end of the or the other side of the coin of proper boundary setting is, of course, high responsiveness and high responsiveness in the in the positive aspect is pleasure, enjoyment, you know, the ability to feel really good about the interaction. So and those are both incredibly valuable and important skills when you start dating, and also later in the relationship is the ability to set proper boundaries. And then on the other end, the ability to be responsive to pleasant stimulus.

Robin | And you there's a section in the book about how a lot of women in particular, will date, potential. And this is like this trap, right? Because we're wired to be nurturers and care for people. And it's like, these are things like you can we could really pick out the great things in somebody, but we're overriding things that we just like, it's almost like it's this people pleasing to in our society as women, like where it's like this codependency, right, we want to be wanted or needed. And so and we can be the fixer uppers, can you talk to us about the potential the trap we can get into in dating? Yes, and how it's so prevalent,

Michaela | It is literally the fixer upper, where you essentially take the apartment nobody else wants with, you know, and essentially with a view of fixing it up, and, you know, harvesting the potential of the of the of the fixer upper. And that's a very bad idea when it comes to relationship. And so essentially, the very cold hard truth sphere is, if you can't live with any trait of your prospective partner, as it is right now, you shouldn't be with them. And that's very hard for most people, because like you said, on one end, we well, on one end, we sometimes don't feel that we deserve any better. Right? There's lots of people who essentially look at that fixer upper apartment and go, Well, this we can afford this we can make happen, this is within our budget, right? And the psychological or emotional equivalent in relationship is that sometimes we look at somebody who is not really up to the standards that one would expect. And this is of course, very subjective. You know, when I say up to the standard, I'll explain that in a second. But we go well, with the right kind of clothes and, you know, in the right kind of attention, and it was a little bit of love. And it was, you know, a little bit of time, this is going to be the guy that commits to me? And the answer is no. Yeah, if he's not willing to commit to you now you should not be with him doesn't make him a bad human being just makes him not your human being. And that's the important thing, right? It's just, it's not about devaluing somebody or denying them, who they are. It's just assessing if who they are really works for who you are. And so for instance, I see this a lot, of course, was women in their 30s, who now want a life partner to have children with, but are, you know, constantly going with guys who are maybe five or 10 years away from that, if at all. And the guys might even say, Yeah, I don't want children right now. And all the women here is right now, but of course, when it comes to something like children 10 years from now is not a time you can wait obviously. And beyond that, you know, if somebody doesn't like the job or the family or the situation that somebody they're dating is in there is a subtle, disapproving of who they are, which they will also be able to feel. So anytime you're trying to fix up the fixer upper, what you're saying is you're not good enough for me as you are right now. And that's a really horrible thing. Because it's the equivalent with talking women to men in what you just said this goes other ways too. But it's the equivalent of a guy saying well, if you were 30 pounds lighter and the blonde in new two languages up my perfect girlfriend. You run really fast unless you have very, very, very difficult internal processes in place right You'd run very fast if a guy demanded that kind of stuff from you. You know, or even worse if he'd if he'd say, well, not only do you need to lose 40 pounds, but I also need you to be 511 and a blonde, right? And it's like, buddy, you're barking up the wrong tree. The same is true when we expect a man to, you know, be things that he clearly isn't. It's it's very hard for the partner in question as well, because they'll constantly feel that subtle disapprovment. And then that creates a whole other kind of unpleasant dynamics in the relationship.

Robin | I think you hit the nail on the head, Michaela about when you're dating somebody, and it's like, you need to be really you, like you said, you have to be accepting of and if you're not, then you pay attention, right? Because we're not we're not here to change people. I think that's, that's what that's really comes down to right. We can all change. But it's not like the fundamentals of who you are as who you are. Right?

Michaela | That's the thing. Absolutely. And people do change in relationship and certainly being loved and being cherished, does change somebody for the better. But if if you're waiting for somebody to become something else, you're not loving and cherishing them as who they are. And so it's not that you cannot want to develop or somebody who is willing to develop, but you have to always go if this person would stay like they are right now for the rest of their lives. Would I be okay with that? If the answer is yes, then great grow together. But if the answer is no, you need to find somebody whom you can say that about for both people sake.

Robin | Wow. I love that they're gonna we're gonna have to quote you on so many things in this interview today. We can I just love that. The end of your book it's so when when we are doing our summits and we always end with a with a closing blessing. And in your book, you have a closing blessing. So I thought I would close our time together with something that you wrote, well, it's a blessing. May this book support you in connecting to your very own wild way. May your enlightened body guide you to embrace who you truly are. And may your untamed heart love with abandon. Oh, I love that so much. Thank you so much for all your time, and your wisdom and just the beautiful, important work you're doing in the world. Thank you.

Please visit real love ready.com To become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At real love ready podcast@gmail.com We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The real fit podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We get real libretti acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening. Take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.

Transcription by https://otter.ai & edited by Maia Anstey