Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 8 Episode 4 with Terri Cole | Transcript
17.10.24
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Robin Ducharme | Terri, hello and welcome to Let's Talk Love. I am so happy for today because I'm joined by my friend. Oh, I love you, Terri. I love working with you, and I just love all the work you're doing. Terri, Cole, thank you for being with us today.
Terri Cole l Oh Robin, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be back together.
Robin Ducharme | I know. And today we're going to be talking about your newest book, which I loved reading. It's called Too Much, a Guide to Breaking The Cycle of High Functioning Codependency. I thought it was I thought it was really great, Terri, you've been talking about high functioning codependency for a long time, and now there's a whole book dedicated to this topic. And you actually coined the term because, of course, there's codependency, and then there's the high functioning codependency.
Terri Cole l Yes
Robin Ducharme | So tell us. Tell us, first of all about your about this book and why, what inspired you to write it after all these years of 25 years of doing the work you're doing?
Terri Cole l Well part of it is that it there was a need, right?
Robin l Yeah
Terri l There was a need for this. So what, what really inspired me to write the book is that, you know, I have a very particular kind of clientele that's in my therapy practice. I very high achieving women in my practice. And so if I would say to them, hey, what you're describing that's, this is codependency, immediately they would reject the notion. Immediately they would be like, what, I'm not dependent on anybody lady, everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money I'm doing, all the things I'm managing, all the people I'm making sure that the whole family gets from A to B to Z, like, there's no way I'm dependent. So I felt like they were coming from the Melody Beattie codependent no more. You have to be enabling an alcoholic in order to be a codependent, even though that's not even what Melody is saying anymore, but meaning she's expanded the definition. But the reality is that there are so many myths around it. And then I started looking at my clients and saying, what is it like they don't see themselves in the definition. So how can I help them see themselves? Because we can't fix it if they don't know they have it right, if they think that's for someone else. So I added high functioning to the moniker, and then I made it really is my own definition of it, because the irony with being a high functioning codependent and with codependency is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it's still codependency. So we're still suffering, we're still exhausted, we're still burnt out, we're still bitter, we're still pissed off, we're still trying to control everything. But nobody is really, you know, Robin, nobody's checking in on us. When you're an HFC, nobody's
Robin l HFC
Terri l I wonder how Robin's doing. They're all like, oh, she's definitely fine. You know what I mean
Robin l She's good, she's good, she's she's, this is why the high functioning piece is, is the difference. It's the key. And you know what you say is, the more capable you are, the more codependency. Like, well, that's exactly what you just said, right? So what it is, though, what are the keys to the codependency piece? Like, how are you going to identify yourself as a high functioning codependent?
Terri l Well, let, I'll first give you my definition of codependency, right? Is that you are overly invested in the feeling, states, the outcomes, circumstances, situation, relationships, finances, and more of the people in your life, to the detriment of your own internal peace.
Robin l Right
Terri l So you're a lover and a daughter and a friend like we are, mothers and sisters and decent human beings. So obviously we're invested in the people we love being happy, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about being overly invested, where we actually feel responsible for their outcomes. So at its base, codependency is an overt or covert bid to control other people's outcomes. As soon as I added the high functioning part to the codependency piece, my clients were all like me. I'm the problem. It's me. Not to quote Taylor, but I will without shame, though, right, without embarrassment, because they were like, Oh, I thought a codependent was like the long suffering wife of an alcoholic man who is pathetic, which, of course, nobody who's codependent is pathetic. But that's, that's the image that people had. And suddenly, when I changed the name and and also changed what it's about, you know, Robin, I opened the book with a story when, when you were high functioning codependent, you're not just codependent with the people in your life. You could be codependent with the entire world to a degree, right? I share this story in the introduction, where I was on a train platform in Long Island in, like, the late 80s,
Robin l Yes.
Terri l Right. And I was coming back from therapy, because I, for some reason, I went to my therapist in Long Island instead of Manhattan, which is where I lived. But anyway, and I saw this kid standing on the train platform holding like a little blanket, and immediately my helper radar was like, what's up with that kid?
Robin l What's he doing here?
Terri l At 10:30 at night, which is funny because he was like, 19 and I was probably 22 but anyway,
Robin l Yeah.
Terri l I was like, he shouldn't be out late alone. So I start chatting him up on the the train. And I said, you know, what are you doing? He said, oh, I was hired to drive a car from Long Island back to Indiana, but the thing got canceled. I go, so what are you doing? He's like, I'm gonna go sleep in the station. I was like, what station? He was like, Penn Station.
Robin l Penn Station
Terri l No you're not dude. Have you been there? And keep in mind, people, this was the 80s. New York was rough. I was like, you will get mugged, for sure. And he goes, well, I don't know anyone in New York. And I go, Yeah, you do? You know me.
Robin l Know me.
Terri l And I took this perfect stranger home to my apartment studio room that I shared with a woman, another friend, who she was also an HFC. So she was like, obviously,
Robin l She's also HFC.
Terri l You couldn't let Billy die in New York. And now that was okay, like, right, without incident, right. You know, he left the next day.
Robin l But it could have been dangerous, right Terri? I mean, really, you don't have this perfect stranger, yeah?
Terri l Of course
Robin l You bring home here, yeah.
Terri l And even if you have never, or anybody listening or watching has never done that extreme, trust me, you've had your if you're an HFC, you've had your own Billy's in your life where you took or felt overly responsible sometimes for people that you barely know. And so I really did actually flush out what are the differences between codependency and high functioning codependency. Because why do I know this? Because this was my own flavor of codependency in my own life experience, and it caused so much pain, so much resentment. Oh, my God, I just resented everybody. I thought everyone was taking advantage of me and everyone was entitled, and not realizing until I had a therapist, it was like, but, PS, you're the common denominator and all these relationships, maybe it's you. And I was like, oh, it's me. I'm serving myself up on a platter, and then I'm mad when people are taking me up on all of my generosity So and, oh yes, that's how it came about.
Robin l So Terry, help us understand the difference, like you just said you you have really flushed it out. Difference between codependency and high functioning codependency?
Terri l Well high functioning codependency is we just make this shit look easy. High functioning codependency is that you are incredibly capable and you are getting it all done, but you are doing it at the expense of yourself. So it's like, you're not, quote, unquote, a victim. You are asserting yourself in this way, but you feel overly responsible, and probably like I did when I was in my 20's and even early 30's, is that I thought that it was love, the way that I was relating in my family relationships, my friendships, my boyfriends, all the things I did not know. It was codependency. So how do we know?
Robin l How do we know?
Terri l How do we know? Well, the first thing you can do is check your urgency, right. If your friend calls you with a crisis, how quickly are you putting down all the things you were doing and like getting on Google and like calling friends, texting somebody.
Robin l You're in fix it mode immediately and like and trying to find a solution?
Terri l I mean…
Robin l Right?
Terri l But not, not just like, how quickly are you concerned about your friend? Because, of course, you are. How quickly does her crisis become your your crisis to fix?
Robin l Yeah, okay, that's a good one.
Terri l So that's one is you're going to check your urgency, but you're also going to check your resentment. So we'll do a quick resentment inventory, because where you are feeling resentful, probably you're over functioning, over giving so, so why don't we, you know, Rob, what I think would be helpful? Well, let's talk about the traits of HFC first, then we'll talk about the behaviors, then we'll talk about the cost, and then we'll talk about the fix. Has that?
Robin l Okay? Perfect. I love it.
Terri l So traits, feeling feeling overly responsible to fix other people's problems. Um, going above and beyond, even when you're not asked to, sort of like giving till it hurts, as I like to say, always ready to jump into damage control mode. And here's the thing, you guys, even when you get into recovery, because you'll never be cured of this. It's only it's a recovery thing. You the your ability to always be able to jump into damage control mode. These are really high level skills that you have, and when you get into recovery, you will still have those skills. You will just be more discerning about where and when you use them, so it isn't like you're going to be a different person when you get into recovery, you just won't be so tired and burnt out. You just won't be so mad all the time.
Robin l Like you said, the discerning piece. It's like, where do I want to spend my energy?
Terri l Exactly
Robin l And is this my place?
Terri l Exactly so what you're going to learn, we are going to learn, and we learn in this book to really identify what is your side of the street and what is someone else's side of the street. Another trait is kind of being a little judgmental, because down deep, we really do kind of think we know what other people should be doing, and we probably have very good advice. We probably are managing right we probably do, which is why people come to us for it. You know, another trait is getting frustrated and angry when others don't take our advice. We're like mad. I spent two hours on the phone with Betty, and then she went back with that idiot, and now I got to listen to her complain about him, you know. And the question is, do you because maybe you don't. Okay other trades, feeling exhausted, resentful, bitter, right? Feeling sort of that other people feel entitled to our sunshine, to our resources, to our love, to our bandwidth, to our willingness to help. And another thing that's happening, but it's hard for us to really even see this. At least it was for me and many of my clients, is that we're really not respecting other people's right to be sovereign, to be self, determined, to be autonomous, right? You'll see, you'll see where I'm going with this when we get into the actual behaviors. So let's start with the number one behavior, which is auto advice giving.
Robin l I think this is so okay. I was talking to one of my best friends yesterday about this, okay? Because I was like, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be with Terri tomorrow. I was telling her about your book, and I said, as friends, we do this a lot with each other, right? Somebody's going to tell you what's going on, like shit hit the fan over here with my kids, or this my partner, or whatever, and and then we're automatically giving advice. Like, we do that all the time. It's just a natural thing that friends do, right? Yeah, so this was a good learning for me.
Terri l Okay good because it's, here's the thing. It's, it is? It is natural, especially if you're someone, if you're an HFC, this is how we roll in the world. Is we want to help. If there's a problem, we want to help another behavior is being overly self sacrificing, like we're kind of almost always willing to take one for the team, because we were strong, because we feel like we can, because we don't think other people are as strong as we are most at the time. Auto accommodating is another behavior where, let's just say you and your partner are, you're going to work, and you walk outside and one of the cars has a flat tire. You have two cars. Immediately, the HFC will go, you know, babe, just take the other car. I'll just, I'll just get an Uber just go, like, we just want the problem solved. We just want it fixed. And we don't mind. We're always like, let's do the most efficient thing. This makes the most sense. You're already in your suit and going to work, or whatever it is. Another auto accommodating example that I actually give in the book is that I was, I was trying to auto accommodate. I was in my hair salon in Manhattan, and it was a busy Saturday. I'm not usually there on Saturday, right? I'm not usually there because I hate being there when it's so slammed but anyway, and my hairdresser, my hair colorist, is like a friend. She's been doing hair for 28 years, so she's, you know, doing this long mask on my hair. So I'm laying in one of the sinks with this mask on. I'm going to be there for like, 15 minutes, and the longer the line for the sink is getting the more anxious I'm you're getting.
Robin l Your getting yep
Terri l Every new person that's standing online with waiting around with their little robe on, I'm like, why are they, they should move me. I don't need to sit at a sink. They could just pin it up and I'll just sit at a seat. So anyway, raise my hand. And as my anxiety got to a point where I couldn't take it anymore, raise my hand. I have the assistant come over. I said, well, hey, I can move blah, blah, blah. And she was like, yeah, lady, we're good, because we do this every Saturday anyway. Like, hello.
Robin l Uh huh.
Terri l Why do you think you need to and this was a huge epiphany for me, because it only happened about five years ago where I realized I could have been doing like this is where the cost of being an HFC, I mean, there's other costs which we're going to talk about, but it was so obvious. I could have been laying there meditating. I could have been resting my exhausted brain. I could have called my mom. There was a million and five things I could have done except what I was. Doing was not on my side of the street. I was trying to control the sink flow at a busy my busy hair salon. Why? Why?
Robin l I think this is such a great example that you give Terry because I can relate. I would do that. I would be like, or I would be talking to the women that are waiting in line and saying, okay, we'll sort this out.
Terri l Yeah
Robin l I'm gonna take charge over here and be like, can I please move and these,
Terri l Yeah
Robin l You're trying to be kind and caring, but in the same no, you're totally interfering with their business, and they're modless, right?
Terri l It's really controlling and meddling, and yet it's so hard to look at it that way. Because here's the thing, what I could have said is, no, my heart was in the right place, but, but here's the thing, when people say to me, I'm just being nice, what's wrong with being nice? I'm all like, dude, if you can't not do it, you're not being nice. It's compulsive. If you can't not to really do it.
Robin l That is where it is, right there, right?
Terri l It's compulsive, like any other addiction. We are compelled. And so in the unlearning that I walk you through in this book, we create inner expansion. We need to create space to be able to question and have self consideration. A, do I want to do this? B, is it mine to do? And when you ask those questions, you you really can interrupt this habitual, compulsive behavior, but you have to want to, all right, let's, let's finish the behaviors.
Robin l Ok
Terri l So we have anticipatory planning. So this is where you know you're going to be with some people. Sometimes we have difficult people in our lives that we're going to be with. So if Uncle Bob is coming to the party and Uncle Jim is coming to the party and they don't like each other, well, we make sure that we have Uncle Bob's favorite drink on hand for sure, and then we also make sure that we don't sit Uncle Jim next to Uncle Bob like we're literally, I had I share this story in the book where I one of my friends used to be I'm so grateful they broke up, but for a long time, she's a close friend, and she was with this guy that I did not like, and nobody did, because he was such a pot stirrer or trouble maker. But anyway, so I would try to anticipate everything that could go wrong when we would go away as couples, I'd be like, well, I know he likes to go to steak houses, so let's, let's make sure we at least one night we eat at a steakhouse like all this consideration, because we also knew that if something went wrong, he would end up torturing our friend, which we didn't want. So anyway, I was doing a jig when they broke up, but that's another example of anticipatory planning. Instead of me telling Uncle Bob to get his shit together and if he can't get along with Uncle Jim, not to the party. Or instead of me going, my friend is involved with this guy, not me, let the chips fall where they may, because they're not my mother effing chips. Like, why am I? I'm trying to protect my friend from her bad choice in males. Why?
Robin l Wow, I just really these, these examples are so good. Terry, because we can, I've been there a million times. Yep, you're controlling. You're trying to control the outcome, like you said, the future, yes.
Terri l And we don't want here's the thing. We just want peace. We just want peace. We want peace in the valley. We want peace in the house. We want peace inside of us. We want peace everywhere, peace in the world, right? We just don't want there to be any problems.
Robin l Right
Terri l This is really what drives us. There is a profound dislike of conflict or feeling out of control. So when you think about all of these covert and overt ways that we're trying to control, we're doing it because we don't like to feel out of control. So another one of the behaviors is the over functioning. So we're doing more than we should, right?
Robin l Yep
Terri l And we're doing things for people that they can and should do for themselves. And so you end up in this over and under functioning dynamic, which really does breed a lot of resentment. I we used to kid around and say that I could turn a perfectly capable boyfriend in my 20's into an under functioner In two weeks or less.
Robin l Yep, because you are doing it all, and you give this example, Terri, of this, I believe she was an emergency nurse, and so she had a very busy job, and she had a husband that had a heart condition, and so he sat in his Lazy Boy chair all night drinking his beers, and she's like, going to work. And he says to her, right before she's walking out the door and putting her shoes on for goodness sakes, like, can you please make me some eggs, dear? And she's like, actually, and this is years of patterning, right?
Terri l Yes.
Robin l And he's, she's like, No, you got to make your own eggs, bud. And he was like, Oh, okay. And like, because before he she would have done it. And he finally said no, and he didn't know where the pans were. He's like, do I put oil in or butter? Like, how do I cook the eggs? Where are the eggs? Like, what the hell? And it's just like, she's realizing how really bad that is, right?
Terri l Yes
Robin l I think a lot of this could happen a lot of couples and in families, right? Like
Terri l Yes. So infantilized, so she over functioned for so long when she finally hit the wall, because I do see that with women perimenopause and menopause, a lot of times, it's a time you're just so hormonal, you're just so fucking over all the things that you just hit a wall where you're like, I don't even have the bandwidth to over function. And she finally got over. She was already in her early 60s, this client, and he was, I couldn't tell from her story, like we thought he really was making it more dramatic than possible, than it was, so that he wouldn't have to do it.
Robin l Yes
Terri l And then she finally was like, Oh my God, for God's sake, just I'll do it. Forget it. But that was the beginning. And then they were able to talk about it, and he came in for a few sessions and and we were able to sort of get to something, because they used to really have a good relationship, but it can turn into this over and under functioning nightmare, where even if you're the one who initiated the over functioning, you eventually resent the over functioning, because we we teach people how to treat us, and when you're an active HFC, high functioning, codependent. You teach people to do less because you do more.
Robin l Oh, my goodness, yes. And what about it? Is one of the this is this behavior related to, you know, I'll do it better, like, they're not going to do it to the standard, like, for instance, like the kids, like, we talk about this as moms right around kids, helping out around the house, vacuuming, and you're like, oh God. Like they're gonna miss that whole area. They're not gonna get out of the stools, whatever, so I'll just do it. And then you're resentful, because you're thinking, My kids don't help out around the house.
Terri l Yep that's that's a perfect example, Rob. And something that, you know, I remember saying to my mother many years ago, I was living with a boyfriend before I was with Vic, and I remember complaining. And I was like, this guy doesn't know how to vacuum, doesn't know how to brown garlic. He can't make garlic without burning it, like, I don't get it. And my mother was like, first of all, Terri FYI, your father never touched a vacuum or a pan, so just the fact that your boyfriend is doing that, I think is good. And she said, listen, if you have to have it all done your way. You'll end up like me, doing it all and doing it all alone.
Robin l Hmmmm
Terri l I was like she's like, let him fucking vacuum. However, he vacuums, right? What's a little burnt garlic? Who cares? At least he's cooking, yes. So I know, listen, I know the bar was a little bit lower for my mother, who got married in the late 50's, you know. But it actually really stuck with me, this thought of if you need to control everything, and nothing is ever good enough, because a lot of perfectionism with HFC's, a lot of times there's a perfectionism element to it too, that we have to learn to allow we we we have to learn to surrender. The whole last chapter of the book is called surrender, because that's what it's about.
Robin l Right
Terri l So when you start to realize the cost of these behaviors, one thing that is a specific cost is that when we're in our head, so much with all of this, trying to control and anticipate, anticipating what people are doing, and trying to avoid things and all the stuff, we are not present. So you live what I deem life lite like, l, i, t, e, because life does, it just doesn't hit the same when you're in your mind, when you're thinking about someone else, when you're thinking about something else, when you're trying to avoid you're listening to the conversation, but you're not really present because you feel like, oh, that something's someone's gonna start talking about politics. I need to distract them. I need to get some food. I need to get the hell out of here, whatever it is that you're thinking of to avoid. So life lite, it's only half as juicy, only half as enjoyable, only half as anything, than it should be.
Robin l I like that. That's a great
Terri l It's a big cost, you know? And then then burnout is another cost. I see this all the time in my therapy practice, just women, you've just, it's almost like we couldn't stop on our own. So our bodies are just like, Fu, you're going to stop.
Robin l Right
Terri l So if that means TMJ, insomnia, autoimmune disorders, whatever I gotta give you so that you slow the down and take care of yourself, I'm going to.
Robin l Yep
Terri l So that the burnout, the bad health, the lack of joy in our lives, the walking around like this, it's almost like this low key aggravation or resentment, like we just, we're just waiting for someone to do something so that we can explode because we're so we've it's cumulative, the resentment that happens from these behaviors over, you know, weeks, months and then decades, and then a huge cost is that you're not fully self expressed. So again, no one really knows you. You're checking boxes, right? We get into that place that even the things that we used to love to do, and I feel like as moms and wives and grandmothers and all the things that we are, we've all been there where it's like even those things feel like a friggin burden. Feel like a. I normally like to go see my mother, but when I'm overwhelmed, or if I'm not taking care of myself or my self, consideration is shit, it's just checking a box, I go, I have the breakfast, and I'm like, okay, good, good, great seeing you bye. Like, check, I did it. Okay, I'm the dutiful daughter. But that's not the same as being expansive and being present. And then if we look at the cost to other people, Rob
Robin l Yes
Terri l Their autonomy, right? They people have a right to fail. People have a right to flail, to not know what the hell they're doing, to drop the balls, right? Figure out which ones can they pick up. But a lot of times, when you're an HFC, we feel like that's the worst thing, and it's hard, especially parenting kids like we need to teach them critical thinking, deductive reasoning, the consequences for their actions. And if we're endlessly so paranoid for them to fail in any way, shape or form, and we make sure they don't, they're now prepared for real life, because real life comes and there's nobody there to make sure that they don't, you know.
Robin l You talk about the story, I love, this story you share around, like, the cost to your other relationships around your sister, right? Jenna, you tell the story about how she was with, like, a bad guy who was like, you know, in addictions and and abusive, and she would call you in a panic and be like, Terri, I need your help. Like, this, is this what's going on, and what do I do? Or maybe she just wanted to vent. And you were,
Terri l Mostly that
Robin l You were at the end of the on those phone calls each time, and how, you know, it was, it was so hard for you to sit back. Well, you weren't sitting back. You were trying to give her the solutions and like, be there for her, as you would, because you love your sister so much, and it's like, but it's costing you your your peace in your relationship with Vic, and your your step kids and all of this, right? So
Terri l Yep
Robin l In that example, how do you want to go into this now? But I would just say, how did you change your behaviors so that okay? Because how did, how, first of all, I want to understand the caring versus codependent dynamic in that story. For instance,
Terri l Yep.
Robin l And then what behaviors did you shift in yourself so that you could be more at peace?
Terri l Okay? So I really thought it was my job, right? So that's the truth. Like for being for being me, seeing my sister being in an abusive relationship, which we were not raised that way, every day was a five alarm fire. Every day it was like, like a full blown code red crisis for me, because I was like, I have to get her out of there, you know? And I remember crying to my therapist, and I was like, Bev, I've done what am I going to do? What am I going to do? I've done everything. And she straight up said to my face, Terri, what makes you think you know what Jenna needs to learn and how she needs to learn it in this lifetime?
Robin l Wow, right, right?
Terri l And I was like, well, I think we could agree she doesn't need to do with an abusive idiot in the woods without running water. And she said, No, I cannot agree with that. Do you know why? Because I am not God and neither are you. But do you know what's happening for you? And I was like, no. And she said, You need to draw boundaries with your sister. I didn't even know I was allowed to. I didn't even know I could do that. And she said, You don't have to talk to her about this guy, because it is so distressing for your nervous system. I was like bawling my eyes out all the time about it, you know? And she said, and you can also be there for her. So I had a conversation with my sister, who she was very understanding. I said, this is just so just ripping me apart. I love you, and
Robin l Yes
Terri l I can't talk about this all the time, but when, and if you want to get out, I will always be your person. And then less than nine months later, she called and said, Are you still my person? And I was like, I'm putting on my sneakers right now. Jumped in my car, picked her up, and what happened was the important part of the story, though, and I think that this is the part that we don't like to think about as HFC's. But if I had saved my sister, quote, unquote, I would then be the hero of her story, so to speak. But because I didn't, she is the hero of her own story, and it stuck. She got into recovery, she went back to school, she got a career, she changed her life herself, not because I was balling my eyes out, but because she was ready. She reached her body and the relief of my therapist basically saying, Ter, I'm not saying you shouldn't save your sister. I'm saying, in a real way, you can't. It's an impossible task, because this is her life and her journey. She's got to want to she's got to be so sick of this that she wants to get out and then you can appropriately help her, which we did. So what we don't like to look at, what was hard for me to see was that I wanted you know she was like Ter. You, you've worked for many years to have a harmonious life, and your sister's life being a bit of a dumpster fire is really messing with your peace, and you really want your pain to end, right? You want your pain to end
Robin l Yes, yes
Terri l And I was like, You are not lying. Bev, I want my pain about my sister's bad situation to end. You are correct. And so there's something very humbling about having to go, wow. My obsession with saving my sister was more about me than I'd like to admit, and yet, the most loving thing to do was to respect her autonomy and listen, you guys, I'm not talking about don't do an intervention if someone is a heroin addict killing themselves. I'm not talking about that right. There are times when it's appropriate for us to do it, but this wasn't one of them, this. This wasn't it, and it wouldn't have stuck. Is my is my belief. And what we're doing when we auto advice give, when we try to not let kids make mistakes, and I don't mean when we're teaching them appropriately. I'm talking about when we're panicking they didn't do the assignment, and it's two in the morning, and you stay up all night to do the assignment that they didn't do, and they're in fourth grade, right? That is codependency. That is inappropriate behavior. They didn't do the assignment. They need to have a consequence for their actions. They could get creative. They could ask their teacher for an additional day. They could say they're half done. I don't know what they could do, but you could ask them, instead of telling them, how do they think they should handle it? Like get them thinking, because that's what it's about. But I think that realizing that we are centering ourselves in our friends situation that was so painful for me to admit, because I think that my ego, the way that my my self image, I really thought it was love. I really did.
Robin l Yes
Terri l And it's not to say you don't have a loving heart, and I don't have a loving heart, because I know you do, and you know I do, but I really had to admit to myself how much my behavior was driven by a desire to control,
Robin l Yes
Terri l Outcomes.
Robin l Wow. I just think this is so important to learn, and I love it so much, Terri, and I think it is recovery, like you said, because you're gonna, you're gonna see these things come up over and over and over again in different relationships and different scenarios and and that's what you're teaching in the book is like pausing, creating space so that you can change your behaviors. Because you might just your gut reaction might be, just be like, okay, I'm jumping in. Right. Yep, right.
Terri l Oh and it will be, it will be Robin. Here's the thing, yeah, we don't expect, just because we know this stuff, that we're going to not want to. I'm been in recovery for years, and from alcohol too. It's just like being in recovery from alcohol. For me, the only difference is, when I have a thought like, Hmm, a glass of wine would be nice, I just don't do it because I can't. So this is the same thing where you you become really aware, you raise your awareness around these particular behaviors that are HFC like, and then you create expansion, right? We need to surrender to what is, instead of auto advice giving, we learn to become a really empathic listener. We ask expansive questions, even to kids. All right, Bobby, what do you think you should do? I trust your gut instinct? So let's really think about it. What do you think with my friends and family too? Now, I'm never the first stop on the bus. Is never what I think. It's always, what do you think? And they say, I don't know. That's why I'm coming to you. Say, okay, but let's just brainstorm it a little bit, because the truth is, I can tell you what I think, but the most important thing in this scenario, even if you don't know, is what you think, even you're not knowing, is more important than my advice, because it's your life, but I'll be the most loving thing, Rob is that we agree to be in the foxhole with the people we love when they're in pain, instead of trying to treat people like projects and fixing them, which nobody likes to feel that way, it's very dehumanizing. When you really love someone, we have to say, how can I best support you right now?
Robin l Really, really like this. So the part you share a lot, you know you I love the fact you're so open with your relationship with Vic, and how you guys are a beautiful marriage, and you work at it, right? And you talk about when you first met and how you were a lot of women can relate to this hyper independent, right?
Terri l Yes
Robin l And how that it's like learning. To and how important this is in our relationships, is actually to start easing on that and, like, start depending on this person. We're not talking about going flipping into codependency.
Terri l Yes
Robin l But
Terri l Yes
Robin l Interdependency, if you're using that term
Terri l Yes
Robin l Right?
Terri l Yeah.
Robin l So how was your hyper independence? And how did you notice that in the beginning and how you softened to really more rely on him in different ways.
Terri l It's so interesting. I I couldn't, I couldn't understand the things he wanted to do for me, right? He was, he was always trying to do stuff for me. And I'd be like, well, that doesn't, like, actually make sense, because I could just take a train. It'd be so much faster. What you're gonna get in the car from New Jersey, drive to the Upper West Side, pick me up to go back to I could just take the train, you know? And it was my mother who said, Ter, why? Why you keep blocking this guy is trying to do nice things for you. He would always say, let me come scoop you up. He would always say, right? And she's like, how about you just let him scoop you up and stop controlling and she said, Tert, because again, if you keep rejecting the offers stop coming.
Robin l Wow
Terri l You can't be the only person who enjoys giving. She's like, imagine that he's wanting to scoop you up. That's him handing you a little blue Tiffany's box. It's a gift. Would you bat that to the ground and stomp on it? You would not. You would say, thank you. And so I started really flexing my muscle, my receiving muscle, because as HFC's
Robin l Receiving it's a receiving muscle.
Terri l It is the receiving muscle and how it was so scary. So the reason why we don't we're not good receivers, and certainly this was true for me, is that I did not want to be vulnerable to him. I never thought I was going to get married. I had had lots of relationships that were fine, but none of them were like, yes, every day till the end of time, fine. You know what I mean? I was like, I don't think so. So I was very fine with not getting married. I was already in my early 30's, and so I really was kind of set in my ways. And once I realized I was in love with Vic, like, really in love, I was like, oh my God, this guy has the power to annihilate me, like, if he is not who I think he is, I think I might die. Like, it sounds so dramatic, but that's the way that it felt. Because my therapist was like, why aren't you letting him do because again, I was like, blocking all these ways. And I was like, if he turns out to be a jerk, and she's like, well, do you have any indications that he's a jerk? I'm like, no, but it's early. I was like, there's still time. And of course, I eventually got over that. But I think the hyper independent is a very common trait of HFC's, yes, for the same exact reason. It was for me that being a burden like right now, I could ask you, are you great at asking people to do things for you. You personally. Robin, are you great at asking for help?
Robin l I have to say. Terri, yes, I'm getting really good at it.
Terri l Amazing.
Robin l I wasn't always and now I know I asked
Terri l There's no way you were
Robin l No, but I really am, and I actually take a lot of like I really do. I ask for help on a regular basis.
Terri l Yeah, amazing.
Robin l Yeah.
Terri l And Isn't life so much sweeter it is when you do it.
Robin l Like this morning, I'm going to give you an example. I called my partner because I've got the tire light on my car saying tire pressure low. And I'm like, oh, shit. What do we do about that? Because I really, I really not, I'm not exactly sure. And so I called him and I said, like, I need your help with this. Like, what I've never done it before. Do I go to the gas station? How do I operate? Like, what is the indicator? How do I get this like, and he walked me through it. And so after I pick up my daughter from school, I'm gonna go to the gas station and follow the directions that Hector gave me. So I'm like, That is a perfect example of me not just like, going in the manual. I could have gone in my manual or gone online, but I'm like, he will have the answer. And if he doesn't, somebody else will. I'll ask somebody else for help, right?
Terri l Yep, it's amazing. It's gonna be okay. But to receive even that amount, what you're doing is you're saving your bandwidth. You're letting the universe know, you're you're not an island unto yourself, and that it's okay to ask for help, it's okay to receive, it's okay to allow. And I feel like, in the end of the book, I talk about surrendering, and that there's a few things that we could get good at as HFC's in recovery that are really helpful, yes, and one is that when we're thinking about wanting to auto advice give our friend or whomever, and they're telling us their story about this thing that you don't think they they should do necessarily or it's not what you would do. And I'm not talking about if they're talking about robbing a bank, right? We're not talking about extreme we're just talking about a normal life where people are doing something that you wouldn't do, and your normal tendency would be to be like, well, if it was me, I would you just have to say to yourself, and this is a Mel Robbins thing, let them. Just let them and see what happens to your central nervous system when you real, even though it's an illusion, right? Because we're not letting or not letting in all reality, right? People are sovereign human beings. But there's something helpful about being able to say, let them. And another thing that can be really helpful is and Cheryl Richardson wrote a book about this called Let Me Disappoint You. We just have to get with the fact that if we are to be healthy, and being healthy means that we what, how we feel, what we think, what we want, matters and to us it matters the most meaning what I think, how I feel, and what I want matters to me more than anyone else, including Vic I take him into consideration. Compromise all the time, but we must know these things in order to compromise appropriately. We must know how we feel, what we think and what we want in an honest way, and fight for those things. Value those things and again, it doesn't mean you're selfish. It doesn't mean you never compromise anyone in a relationship knows you do and you will if you're in a relationship. This is how we do it. But I think that realizing that when we prioritize ourselves, sometimes that means disappointing others, and that
Robin l Yes
Terri l We don't give people enough credit, right? Like, how fragile do we think we are, and how fragile do we think our relationships are? And I promise you, they're not.
Robin l I love that I really do. Can you talk about another trait or behavior or just limited and unsatisfying intimacy in the bedroom, okay? And how that that is something that is very common among high functioning codependents,
Terri l Yes
Robin l And why is that?
Terri l Well, here's the thing, when you think about the basis of HFC, is control. The basis of erotic sex is being out of control, right? It's
Robin l Yes
Terri l Having things be sort of the unknown, or like anything could happen, or like being spontaneous. And when you're an HFC, you you may listen. We are we are coachable as hell. We are good girls, and we are coachable. So if the conventional wisdom says that me and my partner should be having sex once or twice a week, we will make sure that that happens. But again, from, from, where from where are we when we're making it happen, are we checking a box? Oh, good. You're satisfied with that experience. I'm satisfied with that experience. Great. Check the box. Wednesday's sex is done, right? So I think that, and this is a common thread that I've seen in my HFC therapy clients, and so part of the the recovery is re- knowing ourselves sexually and sensually, and especially if you're in a life change as well, because being Peri or menopausal or perimenopausal, that's also influences how you feel and honoring that, not not being ashamed of that, not feeling like something's wrong with you, just because the patriarchy in society never gave a crap about women in menopause, that's changing Like there is a whole one of my friends has a documentary film coming out called the m factor. Tamsin Fidel comes out october 17. You can stream it on PBS like that. We're not going back. The world is changing, but it's important that we value how we feel and that we value if we're satisfied sexually or sensually or not, because it's up to us to make those changes. But I've seen this over and over again where it becomes a box to check instead of a real experience to have, like, you've got to let yourself be messy. You've got to let someone else lead at least at times.
Robin l Yes
Terri l And I feel like for HFCs, it's very hard, it's hard. It's giving up the control, yes, being present all those things that you were talking about. And all that shit is scary if you haven't been doing it, but it's also exciting and liberating and fun and satisfying and sexy and all of those things too. So just be gentle with yourself as you're sort of being honest with where you are sexually, and make small changes. What would make it better for you? Could you give up some of the control that you might be holding on to tightly? And it can start by just being self sexual in a different way, really caring about what is erotic to you, right? So much of the time we're just like, whatever like, it doesn't matter. It's like, okay, it's all about the other person. Because most of us, if you're an HFC and you're a good girl, we really were raised to be focused on the other person's experience and their feelings really more than our own?
Robin l Yes, I think that's true about girls in general, as we're being raised thinking about other people before ourselves. Yes. So something that really hit home with me, and I know there's going to be readers out there that are in the same is high functioning codependence in relationship with narcissists. You talk about this in the book Terri, and you know, here I am, like, going through a divorce with a narcissist. Like, thank God, that's over, but holy shit. How the hell did that happen? And it's like,
Terri l Yeah
Robin l And I've and I've got best friends that were in the same situation, Terri, it's like, these are, like, loving good, like high, I guess, high function, codependent women.
Terri l Yes, yes.
Robin l And how the hell are we ending up in these very awful relationships?
Terri l Because we're such people pleasers, and this is what it is. So if you look at it this way, you go, a narcissist is like, okay to be in a relationship with me is gonna be all about me. Okay,
Robin l But in the beginning, we don't see them, right?
Terri l They don't say it, of course not.
Robin l No
Terri l But that's the reality for an HFC. The reality is I can't wait to focus on making you happy. I can't wait to please you. I can't wait to give you everything you want.
Robin l Because I can
Terri l I can't wait to be the perfect partner, right? Because I can, because I'm so competent, because I can read your mind, because I know what you like, because I want to do that. But then it gets old. So we fall listen how do we fall in love with narcissists? Obviously, love bombing, all the promises, all the things, all the ways they made you feel special in the beginning that are never to come back again. But love bombing can last for a long time. It could be the first whole year of a relationship, even longer,
Robin l Right
Terri l Until you're hooked. And then, once you're hooked, you will see there will be a moment when it now, it moves into they're critical. They say something mean, it's shocking. In the beginning, you're like, Oh my God. And then you're working to get back to that beginning love bombing phase, which you will not be able to because that's not the way that it works, even when you can cycle though, right? So, so you might get back to it being better between you or them, sort of letting you back in the fold. But, you know, there's a cycle of abuse, and the problem with HFC's is that we don't give up.
Robin l Yep, like, let's go to therapy.
Terri l We stay long.
Robin l Oh, yeah. And you think that didn't work, yep, so it's just you actually give some really good ways so that you can prevent this from happening, avoiding future narc relationships. There's a section in the book about that, right? It's,
Terri l Yeah but you've got to know yourself like part of the way that we avoid the future narcissistic relationships, especially if we've had one, is that we cannot fall back asleep.
Robin l Right
Terri l We have to stay awake. We have to keep our awareness the moment your body wisdom. The moment you feel a constriction about something, they say, you say something about it, you go, hey, hey, I have to say I do not appreciate that tone of voice. I don't love it. And I'm going to make a simple request that you do not use it with me. If that person is a narcissist, they're gonna lose their shit. They're gonna be like, what? But we gotta do it early and often, because then they out themselves, they act like they're the most amazing, and everything is great. And once you push back a little bit, maybe they make a plan to go to dinner, and you go, oh, that's so sweet of you. But actually, if you don't mind. I'd rather have Italian than Japanese. It will be they'll be hard pressed not to be like I cannot believe how entitled she like that. They're going to respond in some way that will reveal who they really are. Do not let someone pressure you into this fast and furious relationship, because that is a trick that narcissists use, whether they're conscious of it or not, I don't know, but I've seen it over and over again, where it's really fast and furious, where it's like, the week three, and they're like, I love you. They're like, do you want to go to a wedding with me next year? You're like, Oh my God, all this future pacing, all of this, you're the perfect woman for me. No one else understands me. You're so special because you can understand me, but nobody else can understand me like their sex is amazing, because a lot of times narcissists are amazing lovers and super charismatic. So that's also seductive, where they're like, you're so amazing, you're so gorgeous, they're pouring it on. During the love bombing phase, and that becomes the drug that we continue to seek. So my feeling is, and I would always say this to my clients, listen, if this thing is good in right now, and it's actually good, it'll be good in four weeks. There is no reason you need to be making all these moves so early in a relationship, take your time.
Robin l Take your time
Terri l Pump the brakes on this.
Robin l Yes
Terri l And if they're normal and you pump the brakes, they will be able to tolerate the way that makes them feel. Right. If you slow it down and say, actually, this weekend, I'm going away with my girlfriends, they'll be like, oh, that's disappointing, and I can't wait to see you Sunday night when you get back.
Robin l Yeah
Terri l But that's not what a narcissist will most likely say,
Robin l Yeah.
Terri l So don't give up your friends. Don't give up your life. Don't let that person isolate you if they're super judgmental about everything, you know, once the love bombing phase is over, take note. Stop hiding your head in the sand, right? This is how we avoid it is we we analyze the crap out of what happened in the last relationship. We go, oh yeah, there were red flags left and right, and I ignored them. You know, you know. Oh, you know.
Robin l Definitely
Terri l You do.
Robin l You're not. You're no longer at liberty or able or willing to ignore red flags. No way.
Terri l Yep
Robin l Not happening
Terri l Exactly. Yeah, you we can't ignore them. Yeah, because there is a way to avoid this. It only has to happen to you once. That's right, it's your job to not let it happen again. And you can't be a people pleaser with a narcissist. You can't, because it will ultimately be your undoing. You know, right,
Robin l Right, right.I love it how your mug is Boundary Boss. Your first book that was another, such a great book, Terri, I always love spending time with you, my dear friend,
Terri l Same
Robin l You're the best.
Terri l Same
Robin l And I hope everybody picks up your book. And I don't know what's going to be coming out. Audible, inaudible too. So you can, people can listen to you read your book, which I think is my favorite thing, is listening to you as I read. So I hope everybody picks up a copy. And I love you so much. And I'm going to close our little chat with a blessing. Do you want to say anything else before
Terri l I'd want to say one more thing that if people want, and I guess it depends on when this drops, but I actually have a gift for you, no matter when it drops. Thank you. Go to Terricole.com forward slash HFC, and I have a little HFC toolkit for you.
Robin l Excellent
Terri l It's got two video lessons, it's got some meditations. So if you listen to this and you're like, I don't know what the hell. I don't know where to start this HFC toolkit will help you. So Terricole.com, forward slash HFC
Robin l Oh that's that's beautiful. Thank you for that gift. We're going to receive it.
Terri l Right on. See good receiver.
Robin l May more women recover from high functioning codependency, ditch the disease, to please and control others and start living from a whole different paradigm of authenticity, inner peace, surrender and flow. May we adopt open mindsets with the knowledge that the universe responds with synchrotastic affirmations, as you would say, which are sometimes quite incredible. When we're alert to these signs and see the universe is always conspiring in our favor, we can relax and may we know it's never too late to create the life and relationships that we desire. It is never too late. No, I know, I know that's in my experience. I just, I know that's true. So thank you. Terri Cole, we love you.
Terri l Thank you, my friend. I love you too.