Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 9 Episode 3 with The Gottmans | Transcript

27.02.25

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Hello and welcome to this special episode of Let's Talk Love today. We have the incredible honor of speaking to Dr. John Gottman and Dr. Julie Gottman. These are two of the world's leading relationship experts, and together, they have spent decades studying what makes love last I love this, you know, because it's not just about what's not working, it's how you make it last. That's why we're here today to talk about that both of you, your work, you're doing in this world has transformed the way that we understand relationships. We're also so excited you're going to be coming and speaking in person at our In Bloom summit in April in Vancouver. I think what it comes down to, and what we are dedicated to at Real lLove Ready, is learning from people like you, the experts skills that all of us can bring into our own homes, into our lives, because relationships are difficult and but we can learn skills, and that's what you're teaching us, which is like, I think that's the most amazing thing. And this book Fight rRght. Your your book fFght Right is so fantastic. I loved it. It's like, it's now going to be my Bible. And I love the fact I've dog eared so many pages, because I'm like, I'm gonna talk to my partner about these things. This is the this book is so full of tools that we could all use, right. There's there's prompts, there's language. And so I just want to give you huge kudos for such an incredible body of work.

Gottman's l Oh, thank you. Thank you, Robin. It's our Bible too, because we're no better at doing these things than anybody else. So tools are helpful.

Robin Ducharme | But you also share a lot of your personal story about your relationship. You've been together for decades, right? You said when you first met, you both came from volatile backgrounds in your own homes, and so you were, you're volatile with your conflict style

Dr. John Gottman l That was me.

Robin Ducharme | Yeah, so you practice what you preach.

Dr. Juile Gottman l No, he's innocent Robin. He wears a key pod this little cap, and it's actually a halo, if you will

Robin l Yeah, yeah. So can you tell us first, what brought you to write your book? I mean, I know there's just all this history with your work, but just really, what was the impetus on this book in particular?

Dr. Juile Gottman l Well, we started writing this book during COVID, and what we saw in COVID is that relationships that were troubled to begin with got worse during COVID, when people were really sandwiched together and inside a pressure cooker, there was no release valve, nobody could leave the couples who were doing fine did just fine during COVID. So clearly people really needed more help dealing with conflicts, because that's what rose during those years. The other thing we were seeing is much more polarization in our own country, the United States, and the polarization was resulting in big chasms between even members in a similar family, between partners, between parents and kids. Politically, the division was fueled by rage, and people had no idea of how to handle conflicts that arose within their relationships. So it seemed like a very important time to give people tools so that they could manage the conflicts that were naturally arising with more skill and more grace.

Robin l Yes. I quoted, I quoted you around this because it's like the micro. There's the microcosm in the macro, right? The micro and the macro. And if we can learn conflict navigation skills in our homes, that will filter out into the world at large, I mean it, that is that's true. You say we're at a critical point in human history, a point where, across the board, in every arena, we need to learn to set aside our defenses, open up and fight for peace and understanding. This starts within the four walls of our homes. Our romantic partnerships are the building blocks of our larger communities. They have ripple effects on our children, our friendships and extended families, our collaborators in the workplace. It's just so that was just that says it all right. Is like we we're going to have differences. But how do we learn how to navigate those right? And so many people are afraid they're misunderstood when it comes to conflict. And that's what you teach from the very beginning of the book. Can you talk to us about that people are afraid to fight, they're like they don't want to right?

Dr. John Gottman l Yeah, there is. There's kind of an American view that conflict is always dysfunctional and you you always want harmony in a relationship. And that's not the Italian view, by the way, Italian views more like conflict is inevitable and right, and when it happens, you know, really dig into it, because. It's an important event. And what we started with was the idea that conflict does have a goal, and the goal is mutual understanding. So all of our blueprints were dealing with conflict, which we learned from the masters of relationships that we studied over time really were able to use conflict as a way to get to this mutual understanding place, and that's kind of what our goal was in writing this book..

Robin l Yes, so in all of the studying that you've done, you started with the Love Lab 50 years ago. I mean, both of you have been working clinically in therapy, right? With clients couples. That's 1000's and 1000s of couples around the world, around this, and you're finding your study. This is scientific, right, of course, and there's experiential learning too, where you'll be able to predict with over 90% accuracy the future of a couple's relationship by watching how they behaved within the first 90 seconds. Is that right?

Dr. Juile Gottman l Not quite

Robin l I said that incorrect incorrectly, but it's like this, this stat that I was like, oh my goodness, it's just wow.

Dr. Juile l Well what we found is that how couples talked about conflict in the first three minutes of a conflict conversation, from that we could predict with 90% accuracy, not only how the rest of the conversation would go, but how the rest of the relationship would go. And a lot that had to do with how couples bring up their complaint. Do they bring up problems with criticism, blaming, finger pointing. You know, you're such a slob, why don't you clean up the kitchen? Or did they more describe themselves? That's what the successful couples did. They would say things like, I'm upset that the kitchen is a mess. Would you please clean it up? And the couples who were successful used what we call a softened startup to bring up a complaint which would not sabotage they're getting listened to by the part,

Dr. John Gottman l Yeah, let me. Let me amplify this. You know, before we started doing this research, the the primary model for therapists was a thing called active listening. And the formula in active listening was to say to your partner, when you do X, when you do something, it makes me feel like that was the model for active listening. But actually that is totally unsuccessful. There was a study done in Munich by Kurt Halveg and Dirk Gravenstorff that showed that this active listening model was completely ineffective as a tool of therapy with high relapse rates, and what we discovered was the reason that's so ineffective is that it's still pointing a finger at the partner and blaming the when you do this, I feel this way, like it's your fault, whereas the Masters, as we studied relationships, did soften startup where they just pointed their finger at themselves and said, you know, here's what I feel about the situation, not about you, but about the situation, like the kitchen not being clean, or whatever the issue was, and here's what I need. Here's my positive need. This is how you can shine for me. And so they had that, that positive suggestion, not what they resented, but what they really needed for their partner to shine for them. So that model replaced active listening. When you do X, I feel Y still pointing your finger partner, and that's kind of what Julie was getting at.

Robin l So the skill is, rather than what you just said, John, it's, it's, um, I feel X right? The problem is Y and I need this from you,

Dr. Juile l Yeah let's, let's detail that little bit more. I feel what emotion about what situation. So you're describing a neutral situation. And then what is your positive need? And a positive need means what you do want from your partner, not what you resent or what you're angry about, but what you do want. So if you have a complaint like, the kitchen is a mess, you could either say, God, you always leave it a mess. You're such a slob, or flip that on its head and say, you know what? It would make me feel so good if you cleaned up the kitchen now, and if the partner does that, it's great. It's how the partner can shine for you. That's what you're sharing.

Dr. John l So that was the formula we discovered that the masters of relationships were using at soften startup. But it's only part of the equation. Taking responsibility for your part in the problem is a huge thing that we discovered. Also, like, if you say, this isn't all your fault, I know I play a role in this. So let me try to understand my part in it. What are you feeling about it? Let's get at what we both can do to really make this work around this problem. And so, you know, when both people are doing that, they're really, they're really sort of on the same side working against the problem, rather than opposite side, working against one another. So that's that's another part formula.

Robin l I think it's so almost ingrained in us that couples. It's like me against you when we're in argument, it's like this person that you love so much is becomes your enemy. What can I do to convince you that this is not okay, or what you're doing is not okay, and it's like, but it's like changing it's, it's so much about changing the wiring in our brains around this, because it's the problem that we are sharing together. It's not you against me. We are allies. It's so it's just like I said, I think it's some human nature thing where instantly we're in like combat mode.

Dr. John l Yeah, we're in a Win, Lose kind of contest, almost like we're playing chess, and only one person can win. But actually, if they collaborate, both people went,

Robin l Yes your conflict can bring you closer together. And I think that's one of the best lessons that kept you know you kept reiterating in the book. It's like, this is about learning your partner deep on a deeper level, and and grow it. Your relate your conflicts can help you grow your relationship,

Dr. John l This place where you really understand your partner's position. And a lot of it had to do with, often not trying to solve the problem, but really asking six questions about your partner's position on the issue to better understand where your partner's coming from and what your partner needs. Questions like, do you have any fundamental beliefs or values that are part of your position on the issue? You know, what are you feeling about this? What? Why is it so important to you? Or what's your ideal dream here? Is there a deeper purpose, you know, in this and and so we discovered this, dreams within conflict, questions that deepen our understanding of the partners point of view. Because a lot of gridlock, conflict, you know, where people are locked into into not compromising, really has this existential part of what you believe, that's part of the issue, and people don't compromise on those gridlock conflicts, because they feel like they're selling themselves out if they compromise. So the dreams within conflict, which is Julie's favorite intervention, really winds up deepening your understanding of your partner. And we found 87% of couples with these six questions are able to solve gridlock conflict where they've never been able to solve it before just by staying curious about your partner's point of view.

Robin l I really love the example you give in your own relationship, around your gridlock, because you had Julie really wanted to have a place, a home on Orcas Island, right, right? And John, you're like no, not gonna happen, right? You're city boy. And she's like, love, the love nature, right?

Dr. John l Right

Robin l And that was a gridlock. That was a major gridlock for for you and your relationship, and it wasn't until you and you developed your dreams tools through that experience, right,

Dr. Juile l Right. We went on that for about six years, and eventually we went into therapy about it, and the therapist really liked John, because he was really great and charming and smart, and she didn't like me that much.

Dr. John l I thought she was a great therapist. She favored me,

Dr. Juile l That's right. And so at one point during a session, she said to John, look, you can tell her whatever you want, she has to go along with okay. And so after that session, we went home, and John said, honey, do I sound like that? And I said, Well, yeah, kind of. And then we started developing these questions to achieve deeper understanding for each other. You know what was really going on for him from his childhood, from his background history, what you know, what was playing a role here in his position on this issue? And the same thing for me, he asked me the same questions, and, boy, the whole world opened up in terms of what was really underneath, what was the ideal, dream and history beneath each of our positions on this issue, and as we uncovered them, we felt much more understanding, much more compassion for one another. And then. And it became much easier to arrive at a compromise because we weren't locked into gridlock with each other. So

Dr. John l Yeah, and this therapist was trained in the idea that a relationship works by creating boundaries and by standing on your own rock, you know, and having your position be clear, having having division between you, what was called individuation, you know, and that was the model of therapy that was developed by a guy named Murray Bowen, a psychiatrist, who developed this idea that boundaries are the basis of a good relationship. But, you know, our idea was, and what we discovered in the lab was that, you know, the basis of relationships is really interdependence, not separateness and autonomy, but really needing each other and relying on each other. And so by my understanding, Julie's position, in a very deep way. I learned how important that cabin was to her, to be a steward of nature, which wasn't part of my experience. And she learned that I grew up with the idea, because my parents were Holocaust survivors, with the idea that you don't invest in property, you only invest in the mind, because someday, you know, if you're Jewish, they will ask you to leave that country

Robin l Probably taken away from you,

Dr. John l Right. So you can only take with you what you have in your mind. And so, you know, I had to realize that that was a very limited view. It was based on trauma. It wasn't really sensible, because we were American's, and we all belong. This is a country where everybody was an immigrant some point

Robin l And so uncovering the under, it's the it's the core, it's the needs underneath that,

Dr. John l Right exactly, Robin.

Robin l And what you mentioned earlier on, compromise is, let's just say you weren't able to have those give each other the grace of asking those six questions to understand each other better. And just be like, Fine. We'll get the cabin. You know? Just you could kind of see, you could just see it, right? And then let's just say that John relented, and be like, fine. Well, just freaking buy the cabin, okay, Julie. And then you buy the cabin, and then you're full of you're feeling like you gave in to something that and she's still not understanding you, and then she's feeling but then that is just not a good way to go about it, right? Which I think a lot of couples sometimes find themselves in that predicament, and then you've got underneath resentments.

Dr. John l That's right

Dr. Juile l Yeah, it always backfires, Robin, so you know, you're really hitting the nail on the head. When somebody gives up, really against their will. Then they hold the resentment, they hold the anger, and they look for more negative reasons in the interactions with their partner to increase the resentment and the anger. Also they withdraw from their partner. They become more distant from their partner, and the partner feels that partner then doesn't know what's happening, also grows more distant, and the relationship is really heading south at that point,

Robin l Yep. So something I learned from you years and years ago, but maybe a lot of people don't know this, is that so many of our fights are not solvable. They're perpetual, right? Like oh, that's it's kind of like when I first started, I was like, oh, that's dark, but it's like, good to know that there's so many conflicts that you're going to have with your partner that are just going to repeat, and they're just going to come you're going to come up against these because you're just different people, different personalities, different culture, like, if you grew up in different cultures or different parents. So can you talk about solvable versus perpetual and how you navigate that?

Dr. John l Yeah, we found that 69% of couples problems don't ever get solved, so the majority don't get solved. And by following couples for as long as 20 years, and every time they came into the lab, you had to say, you know, what are the conflicts that you're facing now? And only 31% of the time was the past conflict resolved.

Robin l Wow.

Dr. John l You know, what would what were people doing when they had this gridlock, conflict in the relationship? What were the masters doing with their unsolvable problems? Well, they were really trying to understand one another better, and accommodating those differences, really accepting their partner as the part as the partner was, you know, with all the limitations that everybody has, as opposed to, you know, trying to change the partner's basic personality, which is always going to be failure.

Robin l Yes

Dr. Juile l One of the things that we really learn from the successful couples is that typically, the differences that were perpetual problems were created by either lifestyle preferences or personality differences and beneath. If each person's position on a gridlock tissue was typically a dream of some sort, or an ideal how they would like the world to be, and that was never talked about. You know, in the unhappy couples, they never got down to that subterranean region where the real heart and soul lives on every perpetual problem. So those six questions were designed to unearth what was way beneath each person's position and really foster that deeper understanding, that vision of who your partner really is that goes way beyond the surface.

Robin l I'm looking in the book right now, and I don't think I have dog eared. The six questions, do you know a few of them that you could please read, or that you know?

Dr. John l Yeah, we know them by heart.

Robin l Of course you do. You wrote the book.

Dr. Juile l So the first one is, do you have any values, ethics or beliefs that are part of your position on this issue. The second one is, is there some background or childhood history that is a part of your position? The third one is, why is this so important to you? Tell me more. The fourth one is, what are you feeling about the issue? What are your emotions about this issue? The fifth one is, what is your ideal dream here regarding your position on the issue? That's where it is. And then the last one is, is there some underlying purpose, life, purpose or meaning that is a part of your position on those issues. So you see, you're covering the emotional world, the intellectual world, the historical world, and you're also covering each person's existential position, in other words, looking for a life purpose to give meaning to your life, and how does this solution that you're hoping for to this problem fit into that? So you know, it's our belief, Robin, that no matter what your IQ, no matter what your education, every person is a philosopher, every person is looking for meaning to give to their lives. Those lives don't last forever, and day by day, people are questioning, you know, is this really what I want to be doing with the precious time I have? No matter you know who I am, so we bring up that piece of each individual's internal world as well. During that six question dream within conflict, conversation.

Robin l It realyy brings, brings you closer. Because you're, you're wanting to, I mean, you've been, how long have you been married?

Dr. Juile l Now it'll be 38 years this summer.

Robin l 38 years. Wow. And imagine how much you've both changed in those 38 years, right? So, you know, it's, this is what I am reminded of with my partner now. We've been together, it'll be a year soon, and it's a new relationship. So, I mean, we're, I am just so curious and constantly wanting to get like, just want to get to know him right on, on all levels. And I just, I really want to stay in that mindset, that curiosity and that just like tell me more, like, I just want to get to know him deeply, right? And I think have time as couples are together years and years and years and years, you lose that curiosity piece, which I think is just so key to maintaining a strong bond, because I want my person I'm with to constantly want to get to know me, because I'm changing,

Dr. John l Right. That's absolutely critical keeping curiosity alive.

Robin l It really is. And so you talk about your conflict culture, we all have a conflict culture, and you break it down into three, and I thought, Oh, this is good, because I think we all, we all kind of want to know, Okay, which one do I fit into? Or maybe I've got a couple, or maybe I've changed over the years. So your conflict culture is like your rules of fighting, your rules of engagement, almost, that you kind of learned how, or over time, like this, what you developed, right? So you've got avoiding validating and volatile,

Dr. John l Right

Robin l Can you please go through those for us, please? And then how, and then, yeah, start there.

Dr. John l So the this really was suggested by Harold Roush first, and he noticed these three styles, and he suggested only the validating style, where people listen for a while, you know, build an agenda, then try to persuade one another and then reach a compromise. That's the only one that works. The volatile style is people start persuading one another right away, mate, you're wrong. Let me tell you why. It just they're both passionate, you know, and more emotional. And then the avoidant couple never tries to persuade one another. They just agree to disagree, and they seem very detached that could. Cool, emotionally, and so Roush said, only the validator is successful but , what we discovered is all three styles are actually successful. And even mismatches, one person's in avoider r one person's a volatile can work as long as the ratio of positive to negative statements that they make during conflict exceeds, equals, or exceeds five to one. So if you look at positive things, they were things like nodding your head and saying, that's interesting. Tell me more, you know. Oh yeah, that's a good point. You know, saying all this stuff that kind of lubricates the interaction and being affectionate, having shared humor, being really interested in one another, as you mentioned, the curiosity. So that ratio of positive to negative and negative was defensiveness or criticism or hostility or anger, or that ratio of positive to negative among the Masters was five to one, and among the disaster couples, positive to negative was point eight, so a little bit more negativity in the positivity. And that kind of surprised us. We really didn't expect that. So all these different styles are fine. You know, Rush was wrong that only one style works. It's that ratio positive to negative that really greases the wheels of persuasion and listening to one another and reaching a compromise. So she's volatile and I'm avoidant.

Dr. Juile l We're opposite.

Dr. John l We're opposites.

Dr. Juile l So we have find a way to come right into the middle, right?

Robin l Really

Dr. Juile l I stood up and grabbed my chest and said, Nice shooting partner, you got me. And I felt it

Robin l In the middle of the restaurant,

Dr. John l Middle of the restaurant

Dr. Juile l And everybody stared at us. That place became silent. You could hear it pin drop, and I'm howling with laughter and jaunt on the floor, and everybody's thinking he had a heart attack. What did woman do?

Dr. John l There was a gallery on constitute in Manhattan once where you could draw against Wyatt Earp. And that was the that was. And if you got Wyatt Earp, he would say, you got me nice shooting partner, yeah. And that's where

Robin l I just think that's great, John, that you came up with that, and it broke the ice completely. And just like, okay, we're not fighting anymore. Like that is a perfect example of just, like, shooting that fight, like, just out the window, like, bye, bye. Like, we're done, right? It just really, it's awesome. And so you just completely switch the dynamic. And so what you're saying is, like, if we can, like, this is such a skill. You're in the middle of something, you're in a conflict. This five to one ratio is so important. So how can you bring positivity into your conflict? So, you know, there's a list on page 51 that I, that I it's like, like you said, you already, you already mentioned a few things, like the humor piece, the validation piece, the even, just like having this perspective, okay, I'm going to take a few deep breaths and just remember, this is not my enemy. You're my ally. And like, I like, I love you very much. Like, even though, right now I don't like you, you're just, it's like something about perspective in this has to shift. That alone can help, right a lot.

Dr. John l We really have a very similar sense of humor and a real appreciation for absurdity in life.

Robin l And yes, thank goodness.

Dr. John l We don't Think kindly of ourselves. So we had no trouble laughing at ourselves.

Robin l For sure, I think that's great. You have to bring levity into life, period. And yes, you can laugh about each other, laugh at yourselves. It's just so much better. So the other thing you say. Is one major reason fights come out of nowhere, like, because it could be like, this bomb that's dropped, and you're like, okay, and your fight is not about the pizza, right? There's, you get so many examples of, like, you could fight about absolutely anything, and it's like, it's just like, this huge, big deal. But a lot of this is about missed bids for connection,

Dr. John l Yeah, right

Robin l Your overall relationship. Can we talk about that? Because this is a huge learning for us.

Dr. John l Well you know, just imagine a couple there. They've settled down to watch television, they've ate some popcorn, and he's channel surfing, and she says, Leave it on that show. That's kind of interesting. And he says, Well, let me see what else is on first. And she says, No, leave it. And he says, yeah, let me first see what else is on, like I said. And she says, No, leave it on that channel. And he says, Fine. And she says, Well, the way you said, Fine, that kind of hurt my feelings. Why don't you? Why are you angry? And he says, I'm not angry. It's just that you always get your way, you always want your way, or you're always domineering and and she says, I don't even want to watch television with you. And he says, Fine. And he leaves.

Robin l So I'm getting I'm getting anxious just listening to this because they're pretty sure. I've heard my grandparents fight like this, my parents fight like this. I'm pretty sure I did it with my ex husband. I mean, I swear to God, it's like such a common interaction,

Dr. John l Right

Robin l How do we fix it?

Dr. John l They didn't fight about sex or money or, you know, any of those topics that people always suggest is what arguments come from. They really, they really fought about, you know, not connecting with one another, right? And not his not saying. Oh, well, if you find that interesting, you know, let's watch it. See. Watch it for a while being agreeable and understanding, or her saying, Yeah, fine, you know, go see what else is on. We can always come back to that show if there's not something more interesting. So they got caught up in turning away from one another, rather than away seeing that what one person says is often a bid, an attempt to connect with your partner, and it's an opportunity, even just getting your partner's interest. Like if you say, Oh, look at that bird outside, and your partner says, will you stop interrupting me I'm trying to read.? Or does your partner say, and it is a beautiful bird? Let's look it up. Or does your partner just ignore the bid and keep reading? So we covered that turning toward bids really is a great predictor of the future of the relationship. The people who stayed married in our newlywed study six years later in the apartment lab that we designed had turned toward bids 86% of the time, and the couples who were divorced six years later had had earlier six years earlier, turned toward bids only 33% of the time. So the people who were really responding to their partners bids for connection, were building an emotional bank account and the relationship. Want to say more about that.

Dr. Juile l You got it dear.

Dr. John l Yeah

Robin l Yeah. I think it's so important. You know, the five to one ratio and the building your emotional bank account, it's filling your relationship with positivity,

Dr. John l Right

Robin l Because the negative is going to come, the shits gonna hit the fan, and it's like, but if you've got a bank account that's full of all the positives, it's like, you have less to take you're taking out. But if a bank's full is not going to be depleting. So Right?

Dr. Juile l And let's, let's make clear that the five to one ratio we need during conflict only out of conflict. In other ways, in your relationship, it's 20 to one, positive to negative one. So you know, creating a really rich environment of positivity. And how do you do that? Well, we've just described one way turning toward which is a big one, really responding to your partner's bids for attention or to a need that they're expressing, also communicating fondness and admiration, giving your partner signs of affection that you still love them, that they're important to you, that you really respect them, and continuing to do that throughout the years, that hopefully you're together. And the third way that we saw our successful couples use is continuing to ask each other open ended questions, questions like, So, what are you thinking about our house remodel? You know, what's the most important priority to you? Or what characteristics would you like our son to inherit from your side of the family? And maybe, what characteristics do you not want our son to developo big, open ended questions that have paragraphs for answers, and realizing that over time, we evolve and change, thus the answers to similar questions are going to change over time and in order to stay in tune with our partner's internal world. We need to keep asking those big, open ended questions so that we know our partner as they move through the evolution of time.

Dr. John l We also discovered that none of this works unless there is trust and commitment in the relationship that those are absolutely critical. And so, you know, we needed to really define what we meant by trust and commitment. And trust really means that both people are thinking of not only their own benefits, but the other person's benefits as well. So even when I'm alone, it's like Julie's with me. And I'm thinking about, how would she see this situation? What would she need? Yeah, just a simple example ould be, I need to clean up the kitchen the way she would like it cleaned up, you know, or, you know, or you know, more importantly, you know, one example that I like to give is one time I was sitting on a bench outside of a pottery store, and Julian and our daughter were in that in there, and this very attractive woman came up to me and started hitting on me. So what does trust mean? Trust means that it was as if Julie were sitting there next to me in the bench, you know, and I I said to this woman, I think you're gonna really enjoy that pottery shop. My wife and daughter in there, and they just love the place. And so I was really saying to her, hey, you know I'm not available,

Robin l Right

Dr. John l You know Julie has everything. She has all my love for my whole life, and all my money that you're hitting on me, but you know, I'm just not available, right? It's really thinking for two is what trust is, right?

Robin l I've never heard it said like that. I just, I love that definition of trust

Dr. John l Yeah and and commitment. You know, we really learned about what commitment is from the research of a woman named Carol Rossboth who studied this for 30 years, and she discovered that that people who cheat on their partners are really different in that when things are not going right, instead of complaining to their partner, they complain to somebody else about their partner. Instead of going to the partner and saying, you know, I kind of unhappy. We have we're not having very much fun lately. We're just, you know, always doing tasks, you know, and I don't feel as close to you as I used to. Instead of doing that, they'll complain to the nice lady in Starbucks who has that welcoming smile, complain about their partner, to that person

Robin l Or ti their best friend or to their mother

Dr. John l Right, exactly. And so

Robin l You're breaking trust, right?

Dr. John l It really speaks to trust. And the other thing Carol Russball found is that when things aren't going well, people who are going to cheat on their partner really think in their minds, you know, who needs this crap? I can do better than this person. There's a real or imagined alternative relationship out there where I can be happier. And they start thinking that way, whereas people who are going to stay loyal to their partners start thinking, well, things aren't going very well. Now, you know, she was there for me when I was sick, you know, and and she really cares about me and my friends, and she's a very kind and compassionate person. Yeah, I'm kind of annoyed with her right now, but I'm pretty lucky to have her in my life. So they don't do this negative comparison. They really do a positive comparison, and then they talk to their partner about what they're unhappy about. So that's what commitment is. Is really saying, This is my journey, this is the love of my life, and I'm going to make this wor

Robin l Excellent. So what about, you know, things that happen in your in your relationship that end the way you fight, and it's what you call regrettable incident. I liked that terminology. I was like, Oh, that's really well put this is so how do you manage? First of all, I think you know, when there's things that happen, things are going to happen and you're going to come up, come up against, you're going to be hurt by one another. It's something you do so you regret it and but if you have to deal with this, right, and it doesn't, you teach that, it doesn't matter when you do it, it could be like, within a month. After it happened, or 10 years after it, but it's very important that you actually come to some solutions around it. So amends, not necessarily solutions amends around

Dr. Juile l So a lot of people will make the mistake after a regrettable incident which could be a bad fight or a mis bid for connection, they will apologize for it right away. And you know, that's really our typical pattern, and that doesn't work. Here's why, because you haven't really unpacked how your behavior impacted the other person, and because of that, you really don't know what you're apologizing for, right? So how is that going to work, you know, it's going to feel very superficial. So John and I developed an instrument for processing past regrettable incidents which has that name. It's a little booklet. And I think it's the aftermath of regrettable incident, something like that. And the way you know you've had a regrettable incident is that after it passes, it still festers in your mind. You keep coming back to it and ruminating about it from time to time, and that rumination doesn't go away, and the pain attached to that doesn't go away. So it's time to bring it up, all right, so it's a five step process that we devised. The first step is a list of feelings. Each person simply says what they felt during the incident without explaining why they had that feeling. Not yet that comes. The feelings might be things like defensive. I felt abandoned, I've angry, I felt afraid, I felt nervous, I felt exhausted, you know, and so on. There's a big, long list, and all you have to do is just name off the list which feelings you had, and then your partner does the same thing. The second step is a great one. I love it, where you take turns as speaker and listener, with the listener taking notes. That's a really good thing to do when you're listening to a perspective of your partners that may be very different than your own. So each person explains what they perceived during this incident, but they described their perceptions in terms of, I I felt this. I heard you say, I saw this look on your face. I imagined you were thinking, blah, blah, blah. I fantasized so it's all a description of your experience through your own perceptual system, not blaming not saying things like you said this mean thing. No, no, no, that's a criticism. So saying, heard you say, and then I felt, etc, and the partner may have no recollection of having said that. So the partner is just writing everything down, and the first person narrating their experience, and then the listener, after the the narrator is finished, says back a summary of what they heard the narrator say, to make sure that they heard it correctly and that they heard especially the most Important points, the salient points the narrator was describing, and as they are summarizing for the narrator, what they're also trying to do is put themselves in that narrator's shoes. What would that feel like to hear those words, even if I don't remember saying those words? And that part is challenging, because the listener has to really put their own perception aside in order to get into the shoes of the narrator, right and try to empathize with that narrator and validation. Then they'll give a few words of that. And validation can be as simple as saying, You know what? I get it. I understand how you felt that way. That really makes sense to me. So validation follows that summary, then they trade places. The other person the narrator, is now the new listener. Person who was listening first is now the new narrator, and the other person gets to hear the opposite set of perceptions, then summarizes those and gives some words of validation. That's step two. Step three is about triggers. What got triggered for you, and the way that we define triggers are feelings that came up for you. That are ancient. They're old. They got started long before this relationship ever got started, and those tend to be feelings like feeling judged, feeling excluded, feeling afraid, feeling abandoned, feeling rejected. So if any feelings got triggered for each partner, this is the time that they bring up those old feelings for which a button got pushed. And then they give an example, perhaps, of when the they might have experienced those feelings before this relationship, maybe in a first marriage, for example, or in childhood, that's the second or the third step, fourth step, finally is you're taking responsibility. See how late that comes after all that explaining and narrating. So in the fourth step, you first lay out through a series of kind of pointing out sentences that we've listed what set you up for these feelings. And it could be things like, I was feeling stressed, I was feeling lonely, I needed alone time, you know, I was exhausted. So they're explaining first, their general mindset during this incident, and then they're saying specifically what they regret saying or doing specifically and apologizing for it, saying I'm sorry. And then the partner, hopefully will accept their apology and say, okay, you know, thank you for your apology. Each person takes a turn doing that, and then the last step is saying, What is one thing your partner could do differently and one thing you yourself could do differently to avoid something like this from happening again? That is it. And what we have seen when couples do this, even in a huge workshop of 1000 people, you know where they're doing it privately, they're picking an incident and then using this process to understand it better, with just their partner, there's huge relief. There's my God, you were thinking that no wonder, no wonder you felt horrible, no wonder that got triggered. Wow, I never thought of that. And what you're learning through doing a process like this is, what are your partners enduring vulnerabilities? What's left over in relationships that still are hot spots inside of you that can flare up during a regrettable incident and give you a lot more pain. So when partners learn about those enduring vulnerabilities of each other, then they can learn it would be a good idea to circumnavigate those, avoid triggering those

Robin l You're knowing. You're knowing your partners inside wounds that may have, you know, have scars, but they're still there, right? That's the thing about knowing where the scars are and how that knowing your partner's deepest vulnerability, I think, is and and being so sensitive to that is such an act of love, deep love for your partner. I'm not going to go like just, it's such, um, it's such a knowing and deep knowing of that person and that I don't want to, I don't want to hurt you in that way. And I'm going to do everything in my power not to do that again, right? Or look at it, look it's just beautiful the way you explain that, Julie, thank you so much. And you, and you give examples of this in your book when you were fighting about your daughter in university, but people had to read the book in order to hear that story. So I just our time is up, and I just want to thank you both so much for for being in this world and for teaching us all how to navigate conflict, but also just be better in relationships. Because I think I know there's nothing more important in life than our relationships. They know we can have beautiful, healthy, nurturing relationships, our lives and the lives of those around us is are going to be better. The world's going to be a better pla

Dr. John l And we and we'll live an average of 17 years longer,

Robin l 17 years longer,neat because of healthy relationships. John, is that? This is that? Wow,

Dr. John l That's right

Robin l 17 years. That's significant.

Dr. Juile l Oh, wow. Thank you so much Robin for this opporttunity

Robin l I look forward to seeing you in April in Vancouver, so I'm going to close close with a blessing, and it's based on everything that I've learned from you and further reading your book, may we remember that conflict can actually strengthen our relationships. We can shift our mindset from seeing conflict as destructive to seeing it as an opportunity for growth and getting to know our partner better. May we understand that conflict is inevitable. It's not whether we will fight, but how we fight. That makes all the difference. Defensiveness and criticism shut down connection, but curiosity opens the door to understanding and may we learn how to fight right healthy conflict isn't about winning, it's about listening, understanding and finding a path forward together. So thank Thank you. Dr, Julie Gottman,and John Gottman

Dr. Juile l Amen I Iove that. Thank you. Thank you, and we'll hopefully see lots of listeners in April.

Robin l Oh, you will guaranteed.