Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 7 Episode 2 with Todd Baratz | Transcript

06.06.24

This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.

Robin Ducharme | Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice, to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love. Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk Love. Today we're gonna talk about love and relationships and sex with one of my very favorite people Todd Baratz. Todd thank you for being with us.

Todd Baratz | Robin, thank you for having me. You're one of my very favorite people. I'm excited to see your face.

Robin Ducharme | I sincerely love you. I really do Todd and I'm so happy that we're together this morning.

Todd Baratz | Me too.

Robin Ducharme | So I had so much fun reading your book this week.

Todd Baratz | Oh I'm so glad

Robin | It's awesome. I know. For those of you listening, you may not be out right now. Oh, actually, it will be all by the time this podcast is out.

Todd | Yeah,

Robin | Your book is called How to Love Someone Without Losing Your Mind.

Todd | Which you will lose your mind. But then you get it back, which is the good part. And then you loose it again.

Robin | Yes you do Todd

Todd | Rollercoaster

Robin | And I love the fact that is the reality of love and relationships is that your

Todd | And life

Robin | And life in general, everything's gonna lose our minds on a regular basis. But we'll get it back.

Todd | Up and down all around.

Robin | Yes. So I wanted to start by just asking you to please tell our community about yourself a little bit about your background and know you're a couples therapist and personal therapist. And this just just give us a little bit of a synopsis of who Todd Baratz is.

Todd | Who Todd Baratz is, well I'm actually trying to figure that out. It's ongoing. But I do know my name and what I do and what I like. So I'm Todd Baratz, I'm an LMHC. So that's a licensed mental health counselor. I'm also a certified sex therapist. I've been a client in therapy for my literal entire life, I've never stopped. So I'm helping people, I'm being helped by a team of people. And wellness, relational, relational wellness, sexual wellness is really something that I'm very passionate about. As corny as that might sound but, um, it's very much what I live in breathe in terms of my own life and my my personal life and my professional life. And it's something that I get a lot of meaning out of.

Robin | Yes I know, you must be just an awesome therapist Todd in the book you are just so real about the fact that you know, in school, you're taught, these are the rules. This is the game, you're not going to talk to your clients about yourself and your personal journey. But you're like, fuck that. I, I you tried that right in the beginning? And you're like, No, I'm not. Right.

Todd | Yeah it felt so incongruent. And that's not to say that I'm like talking about the trauma I have with my father with my clients. But it's also not to say that I won't like pepper in my personal experiences.

Robin | Yes. And you're funny, right? And you talk about how you bring humor into?

Todd | Yes, yes. I mean, when it comes to this shit, we really got to learn to laugh at it. So especially when we're talking about sex, like we have got to laugh at like some people, we, we talked about sex, and we're so afraid of it with such fear. And I'm like, remember, we're not talking about death. This isn't cancer. This is sex. It's fun. It's playtime. So, and especially when it comes to our relational issues, too, we have to learn to laugh. So I do try to have a laugh or two, at least in each session, and hopefully, the reader will have a laugh.

Robin | I laughed a lot when I was reading your book. Alright, so tell us

Todd | Great mission accomplished.

Robin | Yes, sir. Tell us about how you started writing your book, How to Love Someone Without Losing Your Mind. Like what was the impetus of that and kind of the process and why you thought it was important to put that work in the world?

Todd | Well, I've always loved writing and it's always something that's really stimulating for me, it's really peaceful. For me, there's nothing more that I like them being alone and just, ummm but it comes from a personal place, like what I was saying in terms of being in therapy have been in there forever. And so part of what's been so impactful and healing for me is writing my own story. So not literally, but figuratively, in my mind and talking it out and developing a verbal narrative. But writing it all down was really a wonderful experience for me both writing down my personal experience and my professional experience. And what really motivated me the most was you know, as I was saying, being in therapy for so long being in relationships and struggling for so long And also being a therapist with my clients, couples and individuals who were struggling with the same exact things. And being on Instagram and hearing from hundreds of 1000s of people struggling with the same exact things that I was struggling with that my clients were struggling with that the couples I was seeing, like all of the same stuff. So it really just became clear to me that that dual perspective, the dual roles that I play, there's this huge intersection where we all kind of meet in this collective experience. So it came from that. And I also just think that hearing about a therapist, life's interesting because I think I, which maybe I'm biased to the that sounds narcissistic of me, but a lot of people objectify therapists says, you know, problem phrase perfect people, or as you know, the most fucked up of us all, as people like to say, but I think it's interesting to hear how somebody who heals, heals. And so I thought that was also an important piece of the story. So comes from a lot of places

Robin | I agree, I, you share a lot about your your life, your upbringing, and in your relationship with your, your ex partner, Alex, and you were together with for a decade. I've just loved the fact that you're sharing so much about your story and how and the lessons that you learned. Can we just talk about that? Even just like the fact that, you know, of course, our. I think you're sharing your story about your upbringing and how you were raised outside of New York, right? You had?

Todd | Yes, yes.

Robin | You have three brothers.

Todd | Three brothers, four boys

Robin | Yes. For boys.

Todd | My mother how she did it!

Robin | Your mom and your and your dad, you share openly that your dad was abusive towards all four, all five of you.

Todd | Yes he was abusive to us all all, it was hard.

Robin | Yes, of course, that was and you know, your therapy since you were like 12 years old. Is that right Todd?

Todd | Yeah I mean, my my parents, my family was really dysfunctional. But the interesting part was, you know, this was in the 80s. And 90s. They brought me to therapy when I was 10. So it's an interesting, you know, juxtaposition seeing, you know, dysfunction yet, bringing kids to therapy. I mean, they should have been to therapy, but they brought us to therapy instead. But anyway, yeah, I started therapy at 10 I was very young. Which was it's changed my life.

Robin | Yes, yes. And what I really appreciate about this is like you're saying, You are okay. And then you came into the therapy world, you wanted to become a therapist. And just this journey of following that passion. But knowing that you know, you were you were stepping outside of what your family, your because your brothers worked for your dad. Right. And so there was all that journey of almost disconnecting from you are still are you still disconnected from your family? You are right, you're right about that?

Todd | I'm still disconnected from my family. I don't get into it too much. But yeah, we don't know. We don't speak anymore, which has been hard.

Robin | Of course it is. And so the therapy, of course, he was your therapist became like your, like your family, a family member?

Todd | Yeah very much like a surrogate father and Evelyn uncle. And he's still in my life. I have a session with him sitting. I see him. I'm seeing him every single week since I was 15. That's pretty wild. It never stopped.

Robin | And how could I? How could our childhood not affect? This is what you go into? It's like, we're all we're all fucked up. Like, that's kind of like one of the messages that you give us.

Todd | In wonderful ways

Robin | It's like you've learned Yes, in wonderful ways. Yes, Todd, I love that.

Todd | Yeah.

Robin | But you're very raw and real about the fact that even with everything you've gone through, and you are a therapist, you've learned all the tools to teach others how to heal. It's it's a lifelong journey,

Todd | Lifelong. I mean, there was this thing called trauma. It's the gift that keeps giving, no matter how much information and knowledge you have. I mean, I, I see clients, I've been seeing them forever. And they say similar things that I've said, right, you believe I still do dot dot, dot, I can't believe I'm still talking about fill in the blank. And I'm like, I've been talking about that for 15 years for over 25 years with my therapist, you know, we all have these pieces of ourselves that resurface that are triggered, that we struggle with and that we will likely struggle with for the rest of our life or not. And maybe at the same intensity might vary. But there are pieces of ourselves and parts of ourselves that, you know, were hurt and we still carry with us.

Robin | Yeah.

Todd | So yeah.

Robin | And so you are a sex therapist, and you go into I loved I loved how at the Summit, you you talked about?

Todd | All my sexual problems you're talking to talk with people topic.

Robin | Yeah. The topic at the summit your topic was, it's not just sex.

Todd | Yes.

Robin | Because people come into your office and they want help with sex. Let's talk about this. We're not we're not having it. We're having difficulty with it. And so what is your what is your approach from the from the very beginning when somebody comes in and says, like, we're just we're just we're so uneducated or maybe unskilled too. In the book, you talk about the skills necessary for having good sex. So just can you walk walk us through that, like an example of, you've got a lot of clients that are coming to you with sex problems?

Todd | Yeah, I mean, everyone has those sexual problems first,

Robin | Yes

Todd | Every single person has sexual problems. And if someone hasn't , they will at some point, and if they don't, I don't believe them. They're repressed. And that's something that I said when I was speaking. And I really firmly believe it. We live in a culture that's so negative and phobic, and we have such challenging relationships, when it comes to expressing our emotions that when we go to express ourselves sexually, there's no way that there aren't going to be a challenge that we're not going to experience a challenge. But sex is symbolic, sexist, symbolic of so many different things, of social values of growing up of attachment relationships, of physical limitations of everything. I mean, there's so many different things that go into sexual challenges, and sexual pleasure. So when someone is coming in to me and expressing, you know, the desire for change sexually, it's a really exciting place, because change is actually really possible when it comes to sex. I mean, it's really a lot of information and practice, because sex, as he said, and as I've said, and as many others said, sex is a skill. And so it really requires practice and work. And that practice and work pays if you do it.

Robin | Yes, I really, this is so empowering. When you're offering that advice. It's like, it is a skill. And we can learn that learn these skills and practice, practice, practice, practice. And talking and talking about it right, you say sex is psychological. Thank you. I put I put that in bold, like, so what does that mean exactly?

Todd | Well I mean our biggest sexual organ is our brain. Everything happens, actually, in our brain And what happens in our brain is psychological, philosophical, cultural, all of the things. So sex is mediated by all of those different systems that we have inside of us. Everything from the relationship, we had a mother to what we're having for dinner, to if we're constipated, you know, it's literally everything. But it starts in our brains. It starts in our heads, it's, it's psychological. And by that, I mean, it's a mix of emotional and relational experiences, and how and how it becomes a dynamic with whoever our partner is.

Robin | Yes. Something I also appreciated Todd, as you talk about performance, anxiety, and how we all experienced performance, anxiety in the bedroom at some point. This was like, there was so many insights. I was like, Yes, I love that. You say performance anxiety affects everyone. What's interesting, is that we don't consciously register our performance anxiety until after sex is happening, like you're in it, right. And there could be, it could be any number of things like that will like cause you performance anxiety, that can you explain how like, like, it can give you an example of that,

Todd | So sometimes it's unconscious anxiety. Sometimes performance anxiety is Oh, no, I'm worried I look bad in this position, etc. Oh, now my partner's gonna reject me. Oh, now I'm not hard enough. I'm not wet enough. Sometimes there's a conscious narrative. Other times, is more unconscious. And it's when our body is speaking to us, but our minds not caught up yet. So that's like if you're not getting aroused, but you're totally there. And you're like, why is this not happening? I don't understand body. Let's go, let's go, let's go. And the challenge with that is, then it really creates performance anxiety, because it creates a feedback loop, where there's an interaction between the psychological and the biological, the biological meaning you're responding, you're noticing that something's not happening psychologically, then you respond, you say, Hey, why what's going on? What's happening? And then that actually exacerbates the problem of a lack of arousal. So then it's just a cycle. And then what our body does is it prioritizes distressful hormones, which really obliterate any chance for arousal. So there's a variety of different types of performance anxiety, but the ones that I find most interesting of the unconscious ones, of course, you know, when you know, we're with a partner, and we want to go there, but it's simply just not happening. And, you know, I've had this experience many times, and this is what I worked through when I was very young with my therapist, you know, as you'd say, but the line he uses your dick, you want to go there but your dick doesn't. And you know, and then we would talk about why and usually it would be about something related to trust, safety, comfortability, body esteem, you know, there was a lot of meaning that in my mind, while I was like, oh my god, this is hot, I want to do this. My body was like, I don't feel safe with this person, I don't trust this person. And so by examining that I was really able to learn how I can approach relationships differently when it comes to sex, so I can feel safer so I can feel like I trust somebody or not have sex with them. So a variety of different types of performance anxiety are both conscious and unconscious, both annoying though.

Robin | Yes, and it's just so it's just so real. It's like the fact that it could, you could be in a relationship with somebody for a long time. And you're like, you're both you're both Why do you want to do it? But like, even in the middle of the act, you're like, oh, my God, I'm totally something's, your your mind is racing or something's going on. You're like having unconscious anxiety. Right.

Todd | Yeah distracted

Robin | Yeah, you're just distracted. So what would you what would you recommend somebody? What if that happens to you? Like after, after, after the act or whatever? Or even just right, then why not? Just would you want to engage in a conversation about it and be just be open and honest. Like, tell me what would it be?

Todd | Well, there's no right or wrong. There's no right or wrong. When I'm seeing a client, there's usually multiple components of it. There's the first component, so there's the action oriented component. Okay, so what do we do with our bodies? What are we like? What can we actually do about this. So if you're feeling performance, anxiety, and you're freaked out, whether it's about rejection, or you're bored, or whatever it is, you're not connecting to your body. So the action oriented part of this would be to strengthen the muscle of connecting to your body into focusing on the pleasure and to being present, a lot of mindfulness is helpful for that. And just simply redirecting your mind your body and decreasing the pressure you're putting on yourself to perform in a certain way. And so that is something that you just have to practice over and over and over. And then it will become something that's more of a reflex, that, you know, I did, we all have had experience in that reflex, where it's not even an issue, and we just have sex, and it's fun, and we're present. And then there are other times when we're not. And so it really just requires a lot of practice, sometimes the best way to practices is during masturbation, because it's there, you don't have to worry about all of these other relational dynamics that cause anxiety. But either way, those are some of the more specific actions that you can take, right away every day to work on some of that. The other part is the more, the symbolism of it all, how this is symbolic, often, like I was saying, for me, it often becomes about trust and safety and relationships. And so that is related to my attachment issues that is related to my traumas, where, you know, for me, it's hard to physically open up to somebody sexually, because it's very vulnerable for me, it's hard to do that, if I don't think the person is actually going to stick around. And so that's why at the beginning, for me, in dating, if I really liked somebody, sometimes it can be hard for me to open up sexually fully until I feel like I can trust. And so knowing that it's helpful for me, because then I can say to them, hey, just so you know, bla bla, bla, bla, bla bla, and I can really work on creating the best possible scenario for myself, to feel empowered in my body and to feel safe. And also increase the idea, it introduce the idea of trust and work on fostering it with new partners. And for other people, it's different, but there's always there's always meaning that I think is really helpful to uncover and unpack. So we make the unconscious conscious that some of the some of the sexual issues, and that can also help the the more action oriented work, because we're not feeling so bogged down by Well, I don't understand why this is happening. Oh, I know why it's happening. And this is what I do to work on it. And then this is what I do to practice and work on it. And then eventually, that anxiety will dissipate. But so it's a whole process.

Robin | It's a process. So one of the skills that you talk about is and I don't think there's a lot of people that really practice this possibly is selfishness in the bedroom. And, and self care, like while you are like intimate with somebody. And you say what is this, this was this was to me, it was like, yeah, like you want to prioritize your pleasure and understanding yourself and your body and body, knowing yourself. And talk to us about that. Talk to us about like being selfish, and how it's not a bad thing.

Todd | The idea of being selfish people freak out about and it's not deep prioritizing your partner's pleasure. It's not disregarding your safety. It's not discounting, minimizing gaslighting, not doing anything about your partner, being selfish is more about connecting with yourself first, sexually prioritizing your pleasure first, sexually, and then your partner. And sometimes people think about this in a cartoonish way, where it's like very slow mo and it's like well ne ne ne and but it actually it's a simultaneous process once you can become connected with yourself and your desires and preferences where it's not a matter of okay, this is now I'm only thinking about myself without the capacity of thinking about my partner, we can connect with ourselves and think about our partner at the same time. But we can just be focused on our partner's pleasure without first connecting with our own. So being selfish and also, I didn't use this word and I can't remember what author did but they use the word ruthless being ruthless with that. Because oftentimes what happens is that we get into this especially in a long term relationship. We get into his way of wanting to take care of our partner because we know them, they made us dinner, we made them dinner the night before. There's an emotional dynamic, there's emotional intimacy. And so oftentimes those relational dynamics can continue over to sexual dynamics and so then that idea of being selfish can kind of go out the window where we can just spend more time concerned about our partner's pleasure and what they're going to like. And so we keep them happy, and etc. And so being selfish often requires a ruthlessness to let go of some of that emotional caretaking and to really just focus on taking care of yourself. And again, not to disregard your partner, and as a simultaneous process, but first connecting with yourself. But it's important. It's really the only way that we can experience pleasure. And if you think about it, whenever I talk to someone, I say, well, what's the thing turns you on? Most people always say, seeing my partner turned on having a mutual sexual experience where both people are connecting first with their sexuality. And their preferences are those people are experiencing simultaneous levels of arousal. That's what often turns people on the most. So it required. Even if you're saying, well, I like pleasing my partner, hard to please that need pleasing your partner is pleasing yourself. So that again, comes back to the idea of selfishness. We could just call it being connected to yourself. Selfish is a scary word, but it's important.

Robin | Being connected to yourself. While I would say absolutely the same thing. If it was just all about self pleasure, you know, what I get the most out of is absolutely having my partner we're we're both enjoying it. Like we're both having the pleasure not. And sometimes it is, well, of course, you're taking turns. But yes, I love that.

Todd | Yeah, the mutuality. That's what makes sex exciting.

Robin | Yeah. Okay, I want to talk about relationship contracts. Okay, can you talk to us, at least your contracts? Because we've talked about I've talked to different people are therapists about this Todd, but I want to hear your take on what that looks like. What? Like, for instance, you're in any relationship? Are you still are you willing to talk about that? And I want to ask about, do you have relationship contract with your partner?

Todd | No

Robin | No, okay. Well, I want it I want to understand having that discussion, and what kind of things you would you would want to include in your relationship contract?

Todd | Well, I mean, like, it's not a moral issue to me, it's not like I'm like, This is good. This is bad. I think it's an individual preference.

Robin | Just agreements. Yeah.

Todd | I mean, I, we have unspoken not unspoken, but we have spoken. I speak about my needs very often. Maybe too much. But no, I mean, agreements. And understanding is really necessary for relationships, if you want to call it a relationship contract, and you want to get our pen and paper and go for it. If you want to go through a list of things with your partner of what you'd like, and the types of relationship that you'd like to cultivate with that, I think that sounds wonderful and beautiful. You know, and I think some of the things that we can include in that, you know, the first thing has to be about safety has to be about empathy it has to be about compassion and kindness has to be about how we treat one another, right, in terms of what you know. Like meanness is a no. Name calling is a no. And screaming and yelling is a no. I mean, a lot of these things, you know, could be helpful to cover with partners, but especially just in terms of the the minimum, the basic expectations around safety and how it's created, which is empathy, kindness, flexibility, and things like that.

Robin | And so what about for instance, and one of the things that I wrote down was like mitts mismatched libidos. If they're if you if you're reading into that, and it's something that is like, how would that be part of a contract or an agreement, like if, like, like, on, like, let's just say, I really want to make love, and my partner says, I'm not up for that. So then we could have come up with some sort of agreement where it's like, okay, well, you let me know when you would like to again, or like, so how would you communicate mismatched libidos to each other? If that was an ongoing issue?

Todd | Yeah I think I posted something like about a relationship contract and once and one of the one of the slides on it was about sets and negotiating sex and talking about sex and having that be not a rule because I don't like the idea of rules but having it be a piece of the connective tissue and how and having that the something that's regularly addressed because like we were saying, five minutes ago, everyone has sexual problems, and every relationship is gonna have sexual problems. And one of the most common sexual challenges is mismatched libidos every relationship every couple has mismatched libido it's rare that the two people are saying the same exact levels of desire the same time unless you have the same works get I mean, it's just not gonna happen. So I need a couple is seeing me or if this is your me, you know, the idea would be okay, if you're going to decline sex one, you do it really fucking nicely. So many people are just saying no, get off me. Don't touch me. Don't do that. You know, You want to hug your partner you want to look in their eye and in the kiss, you're hot. I love you. I'm fucking exhausted. I worked a 12 hour day and whatever, but let's have sex, you know, tomorrow at 3.15.I don't know. So or if they don't offer the alternative, you can say, okay, that's fine. What about tomorrow? Can we pencil in a date? And take that seriously. So that's, that's something, but to do, at least in the moment. But anyway, you know, part of a relational contract about addressing sexual issues is addressing mismatch libido and developing a plan and developing the skills to decline sex and developing the skills to reschedule sector for declining sex. You know, it's a real negotiation. Any, like any kind of difference, you know, what do you want to eat for dinner tonight, you would negotiate it, it just wouldn't be so emotionally charged, it wouldn't create projection, it wouldn't create major disappointment usually. So it's just it's something to talk about to communicate. But it is hard. I mean, I see couples that are crying and fighting and screaming, because they're not having sex. And they're not talking about not having sex, one partner really wants it one partner is just indifferent. And even the the dynamic itself can exacerbating the mismatch and the libido can exacerbate desire problems, which is even more frustrating. Right, because you have a mismatch, a couple with mismatching libidos, and then they don't address it, and then not addressing it brings up passive aggressive behaviors. And sex becomes this big monster about when we're having and it becomes so emotionally charged. And then it becomes an entire dynamic that actually strains the relationship and prevents sex from happening in the first place. So it's a really big deal. So it's something to talk about from the very beginning in your relationship, what's going to happen when desire declines? How do you want to manage that, and if you haven't talked about it at the beginning, it's never too late. You can talk about it anytime.

Robin | I think what this points to Todd over and over again, in your book, is really how important it is to have open communication. And it's you know, and I know we kind of like that word is overused, or maybe just miss, give, we're missing the mark. But really, it's like having these conversations and I know it can be scary. But it's like we have to have them in even if they're difficult. It's like taking like kind of taking away that there is gonna be fear. But it's like, if you don't talk about it, it's gonna become bigger and bigger and bigger. And that issue that was kind of could have been a good little conversation has now turned into like a major relationship problem.

Todd | Yeah, I mean, it's really hard. And the thing is, is yes, we're talking about communication styles, communicate, communicate. It's important because historically, no one my parents never communicated about anything, people didn't communicate. Now we're communicating about everything. So yeah, it's a really important piece, especially with sex. But the other thing that I'll say is that what's also just as important is to understand one extra word that you said it is scary, is to understand that you have to accept the fact that you're going to feel uncomfortable, and you're going to have to tolerate that because for most people communicating especially about sex, about really any kind of relational issue is going to feel uncomfortable. So that's the first step people like, I want to find a way to do it, where it's feels great. At the outset, it may not you have to tolerate. Secondly, we want to think about, we want to think about what stops communication and why aren't you communicating? I get so many questions. How do I tell my partner that whatever, fill in the blank, post, whatever, anything sexual, non sexual? And I'm like, my response is, well, what's there's a lot of anxiety implied in this question. What prevents you from communicating, which is just as important as delaying something to communicate, you have to understand what shuts down, what causes us to withhold and stay internal, and usually that there's a big story there. So it's really, really an important piece of this kind of trying to encouraging people to communicate, you get encouraged to communicate, communicate, communicate, reflect, reflect, reflect, reflect about why you're not communicating, reflect about why you think you can't communicate, reflect about why you can't find the words to communicate, why do we spend all day communicating, and we simply when we can't communicate, as I said, we can't communicate about your needs or disappointments. You want to examine why that is.

Robin | It's a really amazing piece.

Todd | Yeah.

Robin | The self reflection piece. Todd, you had this awesome story you shared during the podcast we did before In Bloom. And you said I think it was something that you wanted to talk to your your boyfriend about. And it was your like, first I journaled. Then I talked to you like first I thought about it, then a journaled then I talked to my therapist, and then I talked to my partner.

Todd | Yeah

Robin | So it was like this four stage, this four stage process of like that the first three pieces were reflection, I mean, working with a therapist is like, okay, reflect back to me. Am I is this am I on the right track here? Can I ask for some assistance, some help? And then the fourth step was talking to your partner I just thought that was beautiful. Like, that's a great example of like, doing a lot of the inner stuff before the communication directly to your, to your boyfriend.

Todd | Yeah I mean, communication gets really reduced down to just the act of speaking. But it's so much more I mean, it's about finding the reasons and the whys and and understanding what you actually really want to communicate in what you're prepared to listen to. But with the responses you're prepared to get and, and why the your desires are coming up in the first place. But yep, it was a it's a process.

Robin | Yup. Can you can you talk to us about what differentiation in the book you talk about differentiation. I've never heard this before. And I learned that when I was reading your book, so this is your work, we want to get to this point of differentiation. But it's deeper than just a place of where, will you explain differentiation to us place.

Todd | It's similar to I was talking about in terms of being selfish sexually, is the differentiation people often think about as being different, which is true, they often think about well being independent, but differentiation isn't about independence, it's about connecting with yourself first. The best analogy is people who say we're in the same boat, a differentiated couple is not in the same boat, a differentiated couple as in two separate boats that get closer together and get more distinct. So the idea is that you become more distinctly yourself, while also with your partner. Whereas so many relationships, we just lose ourselves, right? And so we over compromise, we people, please, we self negate to the point where we've completely lost ourselves. So the I don't want to say antidote, but the response to that is to become differentiated. So to really connect with what we want, who we are, and to do those things. First, before we do the self sacrificing, and the people pleasing and all that stuff. And that isn't, that's not, again, to just regard your partner's needs for safety, or their emotional needs or anything. But it is just really about connecting with yourself. First. It's the easiest way to understand it. Differentiation is something that happens, it begins in childhood. It starts usually around lessons when we start becoming different from our family, and we start exploring who we are and what that could mean. And ideally, we're in families that encourage that and say, you know, of course, go do something that no one in this family has ever done before. You know, I was not in a family like that, I was really discouraged and exploring my own independence, exploring what it meant to be myself. And so differentiation, for me has been really hard in relationships. But it's a story that starts in childhood. It starts with family rules and family values and the systems in our family. But it is really a story about what does it mean to become myself while in a relationship. And it's really fucking hard.

Robin | It is really fucking hard. But Todd, I really liked that how you said, it's okay. And you did talk with us about your two different boats. You're becoming more distinct and more yourself.

Todd | That's a quote by David Schnarch the great he wrote does a lot of great writing about differentiation in his book, Passionate Marriage, I think but it's a great analogy. It really is same page in the same boat. But that's really not the goal of our relationships. You know, we don't own our partners and we don't want our partners own us. And the thing that actually makes our relationships thrive is that we're different. That's oftentimes what drink brings us and brings us to our partners in the first place is the differences. We are drawn to that. That's what makes sexuality and eroticism between two people thrive when you know, when two people merge, there's this process,, there's no one to connect with after that. So really remaining true to yourself. And connecting better with yourself is crucial in relationships to become differentiated.

Robin | Yeah, you give an example of a couple that, like, I think we could all relate to this, when you're if you're fighting with your couple, right. You're sorry, with your partner, you having a conflict or having a disagreement, and you're taking how they're feeling or behaving very personally, we can all do this. We've all done it, right. And so any example of that, it's like you're saying, how are you, how do you differentiate in that? In that issue? You're like, Okay, how they're acting is not a reflection of me. And I it's not can you give us like, like, just a reframing on like.

Todd | Yeah so, common example is that I'll see a couple and one person will give a criticism, I need more whatever from you. And the person receiving that criticism is unable to hear that as my partner wants something from me. It isn't saying that I'm bad, but they're saying that they want something from me. And I know that I'm separate. I know that I'm connected to a sense of self that's, you know, fundamentally good and I can hear my partner's complaints about me, while staying connected to that sense of self. So I can listen to their complaints, I can hear their criticism, so long as they're not saying, you know, you're a piece of shit and being mean and awful and toxic, you know, I can hear their criticisms, through the lens of a sense of separateness, right? So they're not saying that you're this terrible person, because you did this thing, and you need to do this, whatever, you're hearing them saying that this is what they want. They want more of something, because they want more of something. Yes, and, and it's really, it's really hard. Because oftentimes, what I, what I'll see is that, you know, it's a lot of personalizing. And what that is really, you know, a more clear way of saying that is we take responsibility for our partner's emotions. And so that taking responsibility means that we own their we take ownership over their emotions. And that's, again, not to disregard their emotions with the impact we might have on them. But it's to say that we can't be responsible for them, that we have to see ourselves as being separate from our partner's emotional experience.

Robin | Right. And the empathy piece is saying, I, I'm with you, I see you where you're at. I'm not responsible for that. But whatever you're asking me here, I'm going to, I'm going to work on, on on making that change, possibly. So that right.

Todd | Yeah, on responding not being responsible for it

Robin | Being responsible. Oh, yeah.

Todd | And this is a learned experience from childhood and we take responsibility for our parents emotions of our parents are sad with little kids, as little kids do, we assume it's our fault. And that's the same thing that happens as adults, we assume it's our fault when we take responsibility for their emotional experience. And that's not to say that we can't be accountable, it is accountable, it's just to say that there's a certain level of separateness that's required when we're listening. That is hard to do. Which is where learning about differentiation can really come in handy. Yeah. crucial piece of that is, is understanding yourself, you can't become a differentiated person without understanding your history. And you also cannot become a differentiated couple without understanding your partner's history. Because part of that story is to say, I know that my partner gets anxious, if I'm not filling in the blank, when they're coming at me with this criticism, I know that I didn't do anything wrong, I know that this is their earlier trauma. And I know that it's getting stirred up. So I'm going to study my own emotional response and stay connected to myself and be present for them. And to understand that this is something for them that they need from me for their anxiety. And it's, you know, I call this emotional karate work, because it's really fucking hard, or Mission Impossible. But it's another skill, that, I mean, I'm practicing, and it's really hard

Robin | It is really hard Todd. And I just, I just like, these are skills that we can learn and we can practice and get better at. It's like, I think the there were so many repeat lessons that you that you taught in the book is around the fact that, like, come on people. I'm a therapist, myself, I know all the skills, and I'm still, but one of the things I want to say about this time that maybe you can reiterate or let me know if this is true, is because you do have the skills and you are practicing. Maybe the timeline on like, when you fall off, or you're in it, it's like a shorter, would you say that's true. When it comes to things kind of like faster

Todd | It's shorter woods, it's shorter, it's shorter. I mean, when I was doing this as a kid, I was drinking I was drugging I was hurting myself. Now I take really fucking good care of myself as sad, as you pointed out, you know, I, I journal, I do my therapy, I do this, I'm very kind of careful at it. And it doesn't mean I don't get overwhelmed or feel dysregulated or feel emotional, heartbreak and suffer, it just means that I know that the choices I'm making in my life are always acting on my own behalf and not making bad choices that interfere or create dysfunctional patterns in my relationships or in my overall wellness like I used to. And that's the key here is that the self awareness gives room to choice, we can make better decisions. So instead of just passive aggressively or aggressively spiraling out of control to my partner, I pause, you know, because I have an awareness of it. I'm make better choices so that I can communicate better. It's not that these things don't happen. It's that it's things slowed down a little bit in a way where I can digest it and make better choices with what I do with it. And my behavious.

Robin | Well, I will talk about the future because I want to hear more about that, what things are. Are things going well in your new relationship tie. Can you share that with us or things? Tell us a little bit without telling us doing details.

Todd | Things are going well. Oh, I mean, we're having challenges. But the The interesting part is that we're working through them. Whereas on my past relationships, we didn't really do any work to work through them. So it's interesting to see what that's like. And so where that goes, you know, who knows, but it's really it's kind of cool to be able to do that.

Robin | Yeah. I'm in a new relationship myself

Todd | Much as you.

Robin | Well what, but what I want to say is that there's a similar, I think we're similar in the way that we're looking at this, like, I am doing my very best to be present. take it day by day. And I think, you know, we could future think and be, like,

Todd | It's so hard not too

Robin | I know, is very mature and very adult about and just being like, let's just, and he's teaching me that. So, you know, because I think I can be anxious and just just way too focused on future. And it's like, no, I just want to be present and enjoy. And take it day by day. Yeah. That's, it's hard to do.

Todd | But so important

Robin | What it's beautiful.

Todd | It is.

Robin | Well, I hope everyone reads your book, Todd, because I absolutely loved it. Did you did you do an audio?

Todd | Yeah, there's an audio for audio and kindle and all of it

Robin | Oh good, people have to listen to it, as well as read that to have the text because you're so funny, and I love your voice. And I just like think that that would be the best part. So I'm going to close our little of our discussion with a blessing because and these are all from your words from your book.

Todd | Okay.

Robin | May we move forward, write our own stories, not hold back and experiment with everything. Fuck up and get it wrong. Learn from it, and go do it differently with new insights. May we develop a love of life, a deep appreciation for all of life's ups and downs. For not just the joy of it, but also the heartbreak and sorrow. You talk a lot about that about embracing the pain in our lives, right. Okay. It's not just all ups. It's there's downs, too. And may we understand relationships can be painful. Yet, they also provide the key to crafting a fulfilling life.Yes, they do.

Todd | They do.

Robin | Really do. Thank you, Todd Baratz.

Todd | Thank you Robin.

Robin | We love you.

Todd | Love you too

Robin | Thank you so much for listening. Visit reallovereadycom to continue learning with us. Please rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the tools and guidance you need to form more loving relationships and create positive change in your life. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well. Many blessings and much love.