Let’s Talk Love Podcast Episode 110 with Trevor Hanson | Transcript
24.07.25
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Robin Ducharme | Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas and expert insights. Every week, our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships, and they're here for you with tools, information and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions, not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host. Robin Ducharme, now let's talk love. Hello our beautiful community, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. Today, I'm going to be speaking with Trevor Hanson. Real Love Ready, we have been following Trevor's work for years, and we finally are meeting in person and spending some time together, learning with Trevor. And guess what? Trevor lives in Hawaii. Yay, Trevor. Thank you for being with us.
Trevor Hanson l Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to talk with you today.
Robin Ducharme | So Trevor, tell us you are a coach, you're a therapist, and today, what we're going to be talking about is helping our community understand more about anxious attachment and really how we how we identify like, what, what that looks like? Okay, because there's a lot of anyways, we could talk a lot about attachment theory, but I don't think that we're not doing that today, because we all know what that is. I think you know, we've talked a lot about that. But really, how do we become so much more secure and fulfilled in our relationships, rather than running these old programs because of our attachment like maladaptive behaviors. So I'm really excited about this, about this talk today.
Trevor Hanson l Yeah, me too. This is all I ever talk about. So I'm, like, absolutely excited.
Robin Ducharme | So I would just love for you to start by telling us more about yourself and how you got into this work around helping people with their attachment and getting more secure in their relationships, within within themselves
Trevor Hanson l Yeah, so it's, you know, it's one of those things where I never had a name for it. I didn't know what it was, but I and I honestly didn't have enough awareness to even recognize that it was a challenge for me, but I had struggled with anxious attachment, like, for my whole life as a youth, as like a kid, it looked like being nervous and afraid that I wasn't quite good enough, or that I was going to fit in with with other people, and just this, like, lack of confidence and that was kind of unfounded, like I didn't really have a reason to feel that way. And then throughout my life, I kind of just felt like I had to prove in some way that I was like worth keeping around, whether it was friend groups or girls that I was interested in or whatever else. And, you know, there's not some big glaring thing like in my childhood that says that, but I think since I've learned that really subtle things, really subtle patterns that happen on repeat over time, can influence the way we feel about ourselves. And so anyway, fast forward a long ways. I had gone to school for business. I graduated, started working at Tesla, and I was like in their corporate office in Reno, Nevada. We were building what's called the Gigafactory. It's the world's largest building by footprint. It's like, a mile wide, half a mile so it's like,
Robin | Wow
Trevor l Sorry, mile long, half mile wide. It's monstrous. And I was, you know, and in even that, I feel like, you know, it was a good opportunity, and I love it, and I don't regret it, and I think it was the right choice. But I think I even chose that because it felt like it was one more thing that I could lift up and show the world like, see I'm good enough. I got a job at Tesla. How cool look at me. And so I went, and it was awesome. And then eventually there was this intersection of all sorts of things that happened at once. Some of them were due to anxious attachment, and some of them weren't. I'll mention the ones that weren't first I got laid off from Tesla in a corporate wide layoff. With all these managers I had, I transitioned into a different role that was, like, more strategic, as far as, like, managing sales and delivery teams, and they were taking another direction. So, you know, countless sales managers and people across the country were getting laid off. So I got laid off. I broke my jaw in a skiing accident, and the story is still a little unclear. They say I collided with somebody else. I feel like he collided with me probably it wasn't my fault, no, but I don't know.
Robin | It happened
Trevor l Probably happened. I have no memory, right? I just remember waking up in the helicopter as they were life lighting me off of salt resort in Utah. So broke, my jaw got laid off, and then the ones that were due to the anxious attachment is where I think I was experiencing the most pain. The emotional pain was much bigger than the broken jaw. I struggled with dating, and this is how my anxious attachment created issues in my life, the fear of not being good enough, the fear of rejection, fear of abandonment, led me to maybe cling a little too tightly in relationships, you know, ask for commitment too soon, all those things that puts a bit of pressure on another person, or I just show up with a lack of confidence, which isn't very comfortable, it doesn't feel safe, and it's a subconscious cue that you send to other people that says I'm not really, actually that like safe to be with. And so I had failed relationship, had failed relationship, and so the anxiety got worse and worse and worse. And then I finally found somebody, and she was probably equally, if not more, anxious and insecure, and we just held on to each other like the other one was the life raft that we needed, and it found in just horrible chaos, a lot of kind of abusive patterns, from the standpoint like there was a lot of control. I wasn't gonna I wasn't allowed to see my friends. She was very fearful of betrayal. I was looking at the floor when we were going out in public because she was upset thinking I was looking at other girls, like there was just, I just lost my person. I lost me in the process, holding on because I, deep down, didn't believe I was good enough or worth more, and eventually that relationship forced me out. I didn't choose to end it. It was all sorts of horrible, you know, hurtful words. She's taken me to court like the gambit. You can't even believe the season, and I'm finding myself waking up with nightmares, and, you know, having thoughts of not really wanting to be around, and all the real scary stuff all at once. And I went and I got some help from a therapist, and I was like, man, this is really awesome. I love this is so cool. I think, I think I could do this. I don't have a job, might as well go back to school and get a master's. So I got a master's in marriage and family therapy. And in that process, I also started working as a therapist. And along the way, a gathered what was already working in the world of therapy, and said, awesome, I'm gonna pull the best of the best to help people like me. And then I decided also to fill in the gaps that I could see in how traditional therapy, therapy approaches, healing, anxious attachment, because I think there's a lot of gaps in that process that if we fill them, people have a better experience. And so that's in a very kind of long nutshell, what led me to where I am today.
Robin | I love that. So you talk about how you lost yourself, right? And I think that a lot of us can relate in it doesn't have to be just in, like, the whole relationship, but just like in the way we behave, it's contrary to like, it's like you're you're doing, you're abandoning yourself through your actions, right, through your behaviors.
Trevor l Yes
Robin | And so what does and that would be like, you know, I would say that's like, it's abandonment. So fear of abandonment, you say, the more you fear abandonment, the more likely you are to abandon yourself.
Trevor l Yes,
Robin | Oh my gosh. I just, I thought that was pretty profound, because it's like you're attracting your fear. You're like, I don't want to be abandoned, and so you're more likely to abandon yourself through your behaviors, because you're like, living out that fear.
Trevor l And you know what's so like, what's so revealing? It can be, it can be either hopeful to hear this because you recognize the pattern and you break it, or it can be such a gut punch, but it's as you abandon yourself in pursuit of other people. You know, through the people pleasing, sacrificing your own needs, whatever else, you also send yourself the subconscious message that you don't matter. You know, I gave an example one day on my Instagram story, and I actually didn't think this was gonna go so well, but I didn't I thought it's just gonna be a normal story, but tons of people were responding about it. And I said, you know, today I was on a podcast, and I told them I had a firm cut off at noon. And you know, when you say something you like, that usually means you have another meeting. Somebody else is depending on you. But in that case, I needed to go to the beach, swim for a minute and get my favorite fish and chips place across the street as my my commitment to myself that day, and I said I wasn't gonna break that, because if I broke that, I would send the message to at least a part of me that says, Trevor, you actually don't matter. Like I can your your appointment with me isn't as important. I'm gonna bail on you. I'm gonna make commitments, and I'm gonna break commitments. Can you imagine being in a relationship with a relationship with a person who does that, you know, breaks commitments last minute, all the time, hey, here and there okay, that's that makes sense, right? There's, there's forgiveness and understanding, and you, you try again. But I don't want to be in a relationship with myself, where I am late, where I break commitments, where I say things I'm gonna do and then I never do them. No, no, no, no, no, no, because that just destroys my confidence, and it shows me that I'm not worth it.
Robin | Trevor, I think this is so awesome. I was talking to a nurse, one of the nurses that tells me with my son yesterday, and we were talking about this, this exact thing yesterday.
Trevor l Really
Robin | Because I learned this. This was just talked about on the podcast last week with Dr Sue Varma. And and she says that this is, this is such a solid, solid way to incrementally build your self love and self care. It's by giving, making commitments to yourself that you will keep. And you think, these are small, they're not small. Like going for a swim and then getting your favorite fish and chips, that is an act of like, this is self care, like, deep self care. Like you think this is not light to me at all. I'm like, This is freaking awesome. That's exactly what you need to do to love yourself or take care of yourself. Like we make commitments all the time to other people, like you said. It's like, I know at, you know when I've when I got my daughter at 315, 315, I'll be there to pick you up. I mean, she knows, because that's a like I've made to my daughter, or I think about, you know, you're showing up for my partner at a certain time and like things we've I'm just saying we are making commitments all the time to people around us that is, like, part of our daily life. But what are we committing to within ourselves? And we have to keep those promises.
Trevor l Yeah
Robin | That is really good. We don't talk about that enough
Trevor l You know, as you say that, I also can't help but think, okay, if we're talking about attachment styles and an anxious attachment, the question is, how does that is that created? How was that formed? And it wasn't that somebody sat you down and taught you you need to be afraid of abandonment. That's important. Okay, you got that, and you're like, Okay, got it, and you write it in your little book of notes in your life, and you put it in your heart. That's not how it worked. You have people who were expected to pull through for you in whatever way it is, right, whether it's meeting your emotional needs, maybe it's eye contact when you're crying and they don't just, you know, pull away. Maybe it's showing up to your appointments, you know, picking the kids up from the doctor, whatever it was, there was all of these experiences that sent you subconscious messages. They weren't written down. Nobody said them, but they were messages like, I'm going to be here for you when you need me. You're valuable, you're worth showing up for you for I care about you. And really, when we think about healing an anxious attachment and building security, we need emotional experiences that carry secure messages, just as old experiences carried messages that create insecurity. We need new ones that help us to feel secure. This is one small example that we're talking about. I'm going to keep a commitment to myself and and I'm going to hold that commitment, and when I do the emotional experience that comes from it and it gets even better if you pay attention, if you're aware of it, if you heighten the feeling, if you heighten the feeling of being like, man, I'm so grateful that I took care of myself today. I'm just floating the freaking ocean, and it's beautiful, and the mountains are awesome, and I did this for me. Boom, one little drop in your secure bucket, you're gonna get better. You're gonna keep getting better if you keep giving yourself those emotional experiences of healing.
Robin | I really, really, so good I think about abandonment. And I'm writing a book right now. It's very exciting, and one of the chapters I'm working on is how our past shapes, how we relate, of course, and when I was growing up, my parents broke up a lot and got back together a lot. And when they did break up, my dad would leave sometimes for the night, sometimes for a couple days weeks, sometimes we'd move into different houses for like, a year, and then back together again as a family. And it wasn't that my dad was leaving us as kids. He was leaving my mom's the relationship. That was their agreement. Like, you know he's out, and they'll figure it out sometime, but you feel as a kid that that's about you're abandoned. It's not
Trevor l Yeah
Robin | That you know, okay, so, like, you understand that we all do. But then as a little girl, you do feel abandoned,
Trevor l Oh yes
Robin | Instead of me being like you think, as an adult right now, if my partner, if somebody, if somebody, walked out on me, the natural reaction would be like, complete pain, like very guttural, like, you're sad, you're in pain. I'm an adult, so I'm not abandoned. Like you're not gonna abandon me because I'm a grown woman, but Frick that hurts, right?
Trevor l Yes,
Robin | And you're gonna get angry. You're gonna, like, hopefully, voice like, not okay, like, all the things you would do to a loved one that, like, just abandons, like, you know, in that in that way, it doesn't matter if you just walk out like, just you feel left and disregarded. So what I'm saying is like as a little girl, I would rather than react in that way. And I think this is a good learning for me, myself and I as we're reflecting on this, but also our listeners in that when you're little and you and you feel like you are disregarded, or you're in pain, or all those things, it's like our way of behaving and emoting is like we want to get our security and safety and love back from that person that we rely on for our for our life, our security and for our protections.
Trevor l Yeah.
Robin | So rather than being angry at my dad and being like, Fuck you, man, like, as if I'm going to do that as a six year old girl,
Trevor l Right, right
Robin | I would be like, fawning and being like dad, like, love me, love me. I'm good. I'm a good girl, like, I know you're like, and there was this code in our family, don't talk about it, you know, you know what I mean, don't talk about your feelings like, so it's just like, all I'm doing is trying to get his love back, because I'm thinking, I need to do everything I can to keep this relationship strong, because my dad might not be around. So I'm like, then you translate that into your adult life, and you kind of you're acting like that, right? When somebody's hurting you deeply, you're actually fawning for that love, like you could see how it naturally carries into our adulthood, but it's recognizing that's what we're here to do, is to recognize when those patterns of behavior are not serving us anymore. How we did it as a child was, was actually a very strong, healthy way that we we were trying to maintain our connection,
Trevor l Yeah
Robin | But as an adult, those behaviors are not serving us. That's what we call maladaptive, right?
Trevor l Yeah and yeah it's, it's one of those things where we, like you, said we weren't doing anything wrong, like
Robin | No
Trevor l Doing what was natural, the instinct, right? It's just this. It's as natural as pulling your hand quickly off of a stove.
Robin | Of course
Trevor l It's your reaction. And is that reaction now helping us? No, that's where
Robin | No it's not
Trevor l Now in my case, right? The the people pleasing, the trying hard, the staying in this relationship, that was my what I call protective behavior, right? I'm trying to protect the relationship, and if you're in a committed relationship, it can also look like a protective behavior. It doesn't sound very protective, but like when your partner is doing something that cues or signals that abandonment fear in you, maybe they don't show up on time, and it's benign, they got in a wreck or something happened, and it's totally, totally benign, and everything is actually okay, but maybe you come into that situation with a bit more kind of criticism or judgment, right? It's like,
Robin | Taking it personally
Trevor l Yeah. And you're pointing out, and it, honestly, it's a good strategy. Logically, it's, I'm going to point out the thing that's wrong so they can be fixed as quickly as possible, is the logic behind that you did this, you're not doing this. You never do that. And why do you always write all those kinds of words and then you kind of drill into them, but at the end of the day, what happens is that you get that avoidant shutdown withdraw most of the time if you're in kind of that classic relationship dynamics. And so it's it's protective behaviors that come honestly from a good place, and I think that's one of the key things that I teach in my work, is that your anxious attachment is not a flaw in you. You are not a person that is broken and needs to be fixed. You have a part of you that needs to be loved because that part of you is afraid that it won't be loved. It's a part of you that was created through childhood experiences where you didn't feel seen, safe, heard and loved. And there's, there's, there's an opportunity there to do some healing of that part of you. And so it's not some piece that you need to shame and push away.
Robin | Yes. And, you know, I think, you know, we talk about inner child, like, what part of you do you have to be like, okay, little Robin, this is showing up right now.
Trevor l Yeah,
Robin | You're, you're gonna be okay, actually
Trevor l Yeah.
Robin | And so it's, and that's the work that you're doing. You're helping people to identify, okay, this is the behavior that doesn't feel good. And I'm like, I don't want to be like that anymore, right? React that way. And like, how do I self care? It's really like, how, how do we actually do that? But at first I just wanted to go through I wrote down a list of things that that it looks like what it looks like to abandon yourself.
Trevor l Yeah
Robin | You say saying yes, when you really mean no, just to avoid conflict. I mean, we've all done that before, right? You're like, right there, you gave the example Trevor of like, okay, the hard cutoff is 11:45, and you want to go swimming, get your fish and chips, and you continue until 12. I mean, that right there is that you're actually you don't want to say yes, you're but you are, yeah, so no shrinking yourself to be more likable, putting others needs before your own, to earn approval over explaining, over apologizing, or working overtime to keep the peace. I am somebody that over apologizing. Oh my gosh. I think about this example, I think, you know, we just kind of share stories, right? Because, like, how else do you get it? But, like, I saw my, like, anxious attachment, like, just like, Oh my gosh. So at my wedding, which I'm no longer married to this man, but the way back when I did, when I was married, anyways, it was during the COVID, during COVID times. And of course, we had limited guests that we were allowed to invite, because it was like, everything was shut down, but they were opening things back up, and I had family members. I didn't invite their child because it was like, first of all, it's a childless wedding, except for my own, and they each got one friend. That's besides the point. It's my own wedding,
Trevor l Yeah.
Robin | But secondly, it was limited numbers and so but guess what they were showing in all of their behaviors and all of their passive aggression that they were not having this, like, why the hell is my daughter are not invited?
Trevor l Yeah
Robin | So it turned into, like, this passive aggression that I was being shot at, you know, through my other family members, but through them. You know what I mean?
Trevor l Right, right
Robin | And, you know, guess what guess what Robin did? Like, the little child in me was, first of all, I was very angry, because I was like, like, I'm like, this is BS, like, you're mad at me for not inviting your child. I mean, it's COVID. I've got all the reasons. So
Trevor l Yeah
Robin | I'm trying to over explain, okay, that's the first behavior. The second behavior is, then I'm, like, trying to repair this relationship that actually is totally dysfunctional, like, you know what I mean? And then I'm over apologizing and over explaining and going, I'm sorry that, you know, and then I'm trying to, it's like that, you know.
Trevor l Yeah, yeah.
Robin | So all of it is like me, not honoring myself, not showing myself the care and the regard that they are not doing at all like that. That behavior was not loving, it was coming there from them to me. And so if I was to go back in time, you know, anyways, it turned out, you know, over time, everything just kind of got, you know, put under the rug, and we're good now, but my behavior was not honoring myself, right?
Trevor l Yeah,yeah
Robin | If I was to be self honoring and self loving in that example, I would not have acted that way. I would have just been shutting it down, all of it 100% going too bad, and just standing in my power and being like, you guys got a deal and just as much as we can just ignore that ridiculous behavior. You know,
Trevor l Yes, yes.
Robin | I mean, I don't know how else I could handle it, but I'm thinking that would have been me maybe a more self loving approach.
Trevor l Yeah,
Robin | What do you think Trevor?
Trevor l Well totally, right. It's kind of one of those things where there is, there's a narrative that plays out in our head about what could happen. And we may not actually be playing it all the way out, but I feel like there's almost like a subconscious part of you maybe thinking like the catastrophic outcomes or just following into patterns of like. I need to over explain. I need to apologize. I need to make this right, when, in reality, whether you did those things or not, it probably would have been fine, right? It probably would have ended almost the exact same way that it did now, you know, if you reran the experiment, and if, and if nothing else, it might have actually even ended better, not better, in the sense that everybody loves Robin. And, you know
Robin | You know that's not the thing people don't need to, no, it's the it's this, that's the self that the people pleasing, all of those things are coming from a place of anxious attachment. I didn't want to break the attachment with them, the connection,
Trevor l Right
Robin | But at the end of the day, as adults, what I think we need to start really living and understanding is that we are not here to please everybody. We are not here to have close connections with people in our lives that actually hurt us. I mean, really though. I mean identifying like that person might be family, that's all great, and I love them. But from a it's like, it's almost like a warning sign going, like, bing, bing, bing. Like, that's not cool behavior. Like, I don't need to have a strong attachment to that. Because why? Like, I mean, that's pretty that's how I think of it.
Trevor l Yeah, yeah. You know, we, we can easily abstain from a lot of things as people well, and we also struggle to abstain from things, right? Some people have a pretty easy, hard line in their life. They're like, I don't eat meat, and then they just do that. And that's like, what creates a great life for them. Wonderful. Some people say, like, oh, I don't drink alcohol, or I don't do these kind of things. And they create that world within there that they want to live in. And it's their design. And there may be judgment from other people, like, you don't even drink socially. What are you talking about? I'm one of those people. I don't and then there or the people who might judge a lifestyle choice, such as what you choose to eat. And at the end of the day, that's fine, because what happens is, the more you are within your wheelhouse, within your decisions of what you want to come into your world, those things will come into your world. You're not keeping people out. That's not the idea. You're actually putting up a big billboard and a big sign that says, hey, everybody who's like me and wants to be part of my world and and, you know, like me in these kind of ways, right? We like people who have that are different in certain ways too. But it's just saying people that value what I value, come on in, and you will attract those people in droves. And this is kind of the fearful, like, hurdle that I sometimes have to overcome, especially with my single clients who are like, well, if I start setting boundaries, then then I limit my dating pool, and I say, yes
Robin | You want to limit your dating pool
Trevor l Yes but actually, you expand your dating pool,
Robin | Yes
Trevor l Tremendously, because all of a sudden, you know, can you imagine, like, walking into a room and you have a favorite band, and you walk in the room and all of a sudden you start seeing like, maybe, like three or four people, and they're wearing T shirts with that band, like their tour t shirt, or like a photo of them, and you're like, oh my gosh, like, you are my people. I love you. I'm gonna talk to you right now. What's your favorite song? You're amazing. Instantly you have a signal that says, we're gonna be buddies, like, Let's just hang out for a little while. And it's not that everybody else in the room isn't good or worthy or anything else like that. You just have limited time as a human being, so spend it with those who are going to enrich you in not financially, is what I'm saying, but enrich your life with a fullness, and those to whom you can also enrich and give. And it's when you frame it like that, it's like, wow, that's not too scary. That sounds kind of
Robin | Yeah what I what I just so appreciate about the work that we're in is like, I mean, I just love it. I really do. Because it's like, I learned so much from the people that that we get to talk to, like yourself, you know, on a weekly basis, reading the books, doing the all the things, and then getting to apply it in my life and seeing the difference. You know, it's like my my relationships are so good, so strong, so beautiful. And it's like I'm loving myself more and more because I'm identifying with the patterns in within myself. And I'm like, That's not serving me, that is not good. And these, that's not happening overnight, these.
Trevor l Yeah
Robin | And that's that is the truth of it, right? It's like these, these little things. They're little things that we can do when the awareness is the first thing, and then is practice. And then it's like, we're creating new pathways in our brain of behavior and actions through new habits. And then it's like, and then it's like, the new it's like, going down a new road, right? Like, you know, I think about the brain as, like, having all these, some of the roads are, like, very well traveled, but they're like, that's the childhood road I'm going into the adult like, you know, I don't know. It's just one way to look at it.
Trevor l Yeah, yeah. I love that, you know. And as we talk about this, I'm I'm thinking also that, you know so we've covered some ground. We kind of understand that, like anxious attachment is created through emotional experiences, we heal them through emotional experiences. One of them is letting people into our life that we want and keeping those out that we don't. And it's not want, it's the that serve us or help keep our life safe and enriching and showing up for ourselves as another one. And then we kind of briefly touched on the inner child. And I'd love to share a story about thist
Robin | Please because I think a lot of people don't really understand, like, inner they're, they're like, inner child, Oh God, what is that? And like, it's just so,
Trevor l Right yeah, it's, it can sound kind of like hokey or kooky and kind of weird, but let me, you know, we, we do a lot of this in my program. It's called the secure self club. It's exactly as it sounds, to help you become secure, right. And so the the idea is, well before I explain the idea, maybe we'll,
Robin | The story
Trevor l Yeah, the story. So I was sitting in Chick Fillet one day, you know, and I was just on a quick break grabbing some food, and across from me in a booth, there was a dad and his daughter, and the daughter's like, I don't know, like, four maybe, and she's doing the classic, like, she's running to the playground. She's running back, getting a bite of chicken, you know, back and forth. And it's just the cutest thing. She's sweaty, she's stoked. She's barefoot. Her little feet are just slapping on the tiles, and she's in the best place for a four year old to ever be. She's just loving her life. But it comes time in like every four year old's day at Chick Fillet, the worst moment, the worst moment when
Robin | We have to go
Trevor l We have to go. You got it exactly. And he says that. And what happens is that all of a sudden she reacts in the way that she's supposed to as a four year old, with all of her irrational fears and beliefs about that moment. And you hear them out loud, she's saying them to Dad, Dad, we're never gonna come back, huh? Okay. Fear number one, we're never gonna come back. Number two, you're being so mean Dad. Dad's being so mean, and she kind of goes on with other beliefs such as this, that you start hearing her voice. And what dad didn't do that unfortunately, we sometimes witness, is grab her hand, rip her out and say, like, stop being so dramatic. Like, get your shoes. Let's get out of here. He didn't do that at all. He kind of leaned over to her and he goes, oh my gosh, you're afraid that we're never going to come back. And all of a sudden, just saying that, she starts to slow down. And she's kind of like going, wait a second Dad's tuning in with me a minute here, and it feels like maybe there's some trust being built. And she gives that little yeah, you know, like the yeah that squeaks through, like the tears and the almost closed throat, yeah. And he goes, Oh. And you feel like dad's being mean, huh? He's like, well, yeah, you're telling me I gotta go. And he goes, oh, I get why you feel all of that. That makes a lot of sense. You love it here, don't you, you've got friends that you made today. It's so fun. I get that. And again, he's just pausing, and she's confirming everything, yeah, it's true. And at this point, she's feeling trust with dad, because he's recognizing the fear that she has. He's He's not telling her that it's true. He never said, Yes, that's right. Dad's being mean, and we're never coming back, never, never, never. But he just met her where she was
Robin | He's validating.
Trevor l Yeah. Yes, he's validating. And then it gives him power to give her new truth that's grounded in reality instead of her narrative that's not grounded in reality. And he goes, Well, sweetie, you know, Mom's really excited to see you at home, and so I don't want to be mean. I want you to go hang out with mom. She's so excited, and she's kind of recognizing, oh yeah, I want to see my mom too. And he goes, your princess bed isn't here. Where are you gonna sleep? I know you love the red chairs. Red's your favorite color, but we can't sleep on those. And she kind of laughs. And then he also tells her, you know we're coming back. We always come back after your cousin's soccer practices. It's like our spot. And she's kind of realizing dad is right, and all of these truths, they feel safe, they are okay. And then he invites her to take a new step, instead of protecting herself by, you know, throwing the fit, staying firmly planted, he says, why don't we go to the car we go home and see Mom.?Does that sound good? And she willingly goes. She doesn't do it, you know, clenched fists, fearful. She willingly, naturally goes with him. And I saw that, and I said, that is inner child work. In a nutshell, that is inner child. That is the perfect example of what this looks like. And I'll pause before explaining, I guess the crossover to but, but, yeah,
Robin | I think that is just such an amazing story when our daughter, when my oldest daughter, she's 18 now, but when she was two and three, she had the tantrums. She was that little girl that, like, we she would just have, like, she's that kid that you'd see on the grocery floor, like, grocery, grocery store floor. Like, absolutely,
Trevor l Loosing it
Robin | Like, so embarrassing for us as parents, because we would like, at that point, there was no reasoning with her. We would just pick her up. We could leave the grocery store like, Oh, we're getting groceries tomorrow, I guess. Like, holy crap. But we went to a child psychologist, and she taught us exactly the way that dad was validating. And that's, that's what worked with our daughter, Maya. It was like, you want that cereal, don't you? You really want that cereal, right? It kept happening. We had to change our approach. But she taught us exactly that example, what you just gave and how we had to, how we did communicate differently with her, and how it worked every time. And it was like, and it was a great skill for us too. It's just like, we really need to learn this. And it was that's just awesome. Trevor
Trevor l Yeah totally. And so if you, if we translate that into our
Robin | As adult
Trevor l Yes, interacting with our inner child. So the idea of the inner child is not just metaphorical. Is a part of your nervous system that was created and is still built in a particular way, in your brain. It's biological. It actually lives with inside of you, which is, I think is so cool that it's both this metaphorical, spiritual idea, but physical. And so maybe it was that you didn't have somebody show up for you consistently, right? We'll do this on an example. Maybe mom and dad, they said they were going to do things, or maybe they weren't there for you when you were feeling emotional or needed some help. And so nowadays, you've got this thing that you call an anxious attachment, and you're sitting there, you're waiting for somebody to respond to you, maybe you text them and they're not texting you back, and all of a sudden, that part of your nervous system is activated. It's an inner child. It's a part of you that is, it's not all of you, right? There's another part of you that logically can be like, yeah, people get busy. I'm fine. You can say all the right answers, but you don't feel them deep down. And what we're focusing on here is changing the feeling so it matches your logical adult brain, the wise part of you that could comfort and a little child who's afraid that people are going to leave them or comfort the little girl in Chick Fillet right? People listening to this, listen and go, oh, I could, I could do that. Yes, you can do that. So there's two parts. There's the inner child part of you that is fearful in that moment and responding out of irrational beliefs such as this person hates me. They're never going to text me back. If they don't text me back, then I'm going to be alone forever. You know, everything that you could possibly believe. And then there's a rational, loving adult part of you. It's kind of like the dad version of you, and that's the part of you that could comfort your own child or pick up a niece or a nephew when they're feeling a little bit fearful, and walk through things and validate. You've got both parts in you, and so we're going to use both parts to heal. And so, you know, it looks like taking that wise version of you and just noticing maybe in your body, where you feel the inner child, where you feel that fear and anxiety. Maybe it looks like closing your eyes and picturing the little version of you that first felt this fear of abandonment, this fear that people weren't going to respond or be there. Imagine them. Where do you see them? Maybe on their bed. Maybe they're crying. Maybe it's, you know, waiting for mom to pick you up from soccer practice. Maybe you're hearing your parents argue in the other room, whatever it is, or, you know, in your case, waiting for Dad to come back and not knowing if he is right, imagining her this little self and walking in and doing the same moves that Dad did, where we recognize the beliefs and validate them. You're feeling like this person's not going to text you back, and if they don't, that means things about you, that you're unworthy of love, that everyone's going to treat you this way, that you're never going to find. Somebody, you know, all of those things that makes a lot of sense. I get why you feel that way, right? And at this point, we're having an internal conversation. And if it helps, I speak it out loud. I'll look at a photo of myself. I'll imagine myself. We do active visualizations, like processes in our program that that lead us through this. But I'm giving you kind of the short version. And then, and then Dad, from that place was able to build trust and then reveal reality or truth. And when you build trust with your inner child through this, you know, visualizing process, speaking to yourself, you notice that your nervous system will start to calm down. You start to feel calm, and that's the signal that you're gaining some trust. You're gaining some ground. And it might not be immediate. Sometimes we got to go with rounds of this. People are like no, my inner child won't listen to me. It's like, it's funny. It's almost acts as if it truly is a separate being that lives inside of you sometimes. But
Robin | Acting like, a little child is just like ignoring,
Trevor l Yeah like digging in the heels in, right? No, I can't go with you. And then you could reveal truth, such as, hey, just so you know, if they don't text back, we're going to be okay. We are still lovable. We're still valuable. All of the things you might write on your affirmations list. And this is why sometimes affirmations don't work. You haven't built trust first, you haven't created a place within you that could actually receive the truth, such as, you're worthy of being treated well. You know people. You know,
Robin | Right
Trevor l Not everyone's gonna leave you. The people who aren't worth it will leave you, and that's okay, right? You can't get in touch with those truths if you haven't first calmed the part of you that's so protective. And then what happens this is the coolest part, and it's the image of Dad walking to the car with a little girl willingly, where she didn't do it, fearfully, holding on for your dear life. And sometimes we try that. We try to do the secure thing, right? I'm just gonna fake it till I make it. Well, you might not make it because you're just clenching on short term that works, right? We call it white knuckling. If we talk about, like, the world of addiction, they talk about white knuckling it where it's like, I haven't had a real, intrinsic change. I'm just doing this because I know how to do the behavior. But when you heal this part of you, you gain that trust, you reveal the truth that you're worthy, you're lovable, everything is okay, then the fearful part of you will follow the wise, rational, loving, secure part of you willingly, and you don't even have to try. You start showing up better in your relationships. You're waiting for the text back, and you're like, oh, man, it would be a bummer. Would be a bummer if they didn't text me, because I like this person, but I'm okay. Like, you naturally start doing all the things that you hope to do, and then your relationships get better. You find the person, you heal the conflict, like you rebuild the trust that maybe you've broken over time with your you know, emotional reactions to your partner, all of it starts to naturally take care of itself. And communication skills go out the window because you just do them. You just naturally do them.
Robin | Yes, oh, I really that is, that's good Trevor, right. It's like, we've got all these skills, but it's like, yeah, it's not about your actions are in, like, you already know, the learning, but then you're just, it's naturally being demonstrated,
Trevor l Yeah, okay, yeah. People, people, well, and I tell people, so in, in, like, our work, for example, we have like, secure self journey. It's like stages, steps and stages, this like structure on how we go from anxious to secure, and we do have some things on skills, like setting boundaries or communicating with your partner, and some frameworks to use, and that's helpful, but it doesn't it doesn't come first. It actually comes last, because we want to build security. And then when you're secure, you naturally stop doing the things to protect yourself, which like, maybe you used to be very critical or defensive because you were insecure, and a healthy communication strategy or skills looks like reducing defensiveness and criticism and gives you new ways of communicating your needs. You kind of will find that people get to the healthy communication section and those skills, and they'll go, whoa. I'm kind of already doing all of this now. I'm like, yeah, exactly. That's the moment that we're looking for the big reveal, where you go, holy crap. This is helpful because it fine tunes what I'm doing. But like, I'm already doing a lot of this, because I just don't have to protect myself anymore. I'm secure. I'm good.
Robin | Yes, I know that this is where I'm at right now in my relationship with my partner. It's like I feel so secure in myself. And if there's stuff that we need to talk about, it's like I'm coming in with a with open mind and more curiosity and like, okay, I want to figure out where he's coming from. Like, I know my thoughts around this, and they could very well be false, but like, I'll figure out where, like, where he's coming from first, and then we'll, I will come to it we'll come to some sort of, like, you know, as long as I'm coming from that place of like, I want to know where, where your where your thoughts are at. And then the communication is so different, so different,
Trevor l So different, so different. And so I tell people, instead of trying to, honestly, this might sound backwards, because I've been a couples therapist for a long time. Maybe instead of going to couples therapy, or maybe instead of trying to get on another dating app or make yourself more pretty or like whatever it is, right? There's the single who want to be connected in and find the person. There's some there, and then there's a group who you found the person, and yet you have conflict, instead of maybe those obvious routes of creating success in your relationships, I would suggest going to the core of what healing you need and becoming secure. Because becoming secure, as we're talking about, the natural byproduct is my relationship starts to get better. And what's so cool and hopeful about this. It doesn't rely on another person. It doesn't rely on your partner to show up. It doesn't, none of it. You are in control of your destiny, which also means there's a lot more accountability. Like it's like, it's on you. You can't, you can't play the victim, which is hard if you have been and we all have done it at times. So there's no shame in that. It's just about changing that pattern. But man, how hopeful is that? Like, wait, there's another route. It's not just that we have to go to couples therapy, or I have to download another dating app, or try to look better, or all these things. It's like, no, no. Just make yourself so whole complete, calm and secure that you can navigate those situations and that you naturally attract into your life the kind of healthy love that you deserve.
Robin | Trevor that is like one of the gems of this conversation. Because I think there's, like, this narrative that is still pretty, pretty big in our world around, well, online dating, let's just say, or just dating in general, where it's that you have to fix yourself or heal yourself before you can be a good partner. And I think really, on a bigger perspective, is like you said, being secure. That's what you're shooting for,
Trevor l Yes
Robin | Before you bring in a new partner. So what are the ways, like, you know, we could say healing ourselves. I mean, come on, I'm on a healing journey for the rest of my life like I'm in partnership, like, so it's just like, I'm not gonna heal my my myself 100% before being in partnership. That's just not the way it goes. But I definitely worked on becoming my secure self before I met my partner, and it was it totally served me 100% in my dating journey before we met. Like, I remember, like, on my the third guy I met online, I only met three, so the second person, we had gone on, like, four dates. Like it was, like, our third date, sorry, three dates and a third date we sat at. He sat across from me during dinner, and I came back from the washroom. I thought it was going really well, like, I thought it was like, we're having so much fun, like, conversation. And he looked at me, and he was like, Robin, I just need you to know that I am not physically attracted to you. It was a sting. It was like, somebody just like, freaking sucker punched me, right. But I looked at him in the face, and I was like, I'm gonna leave now. Like, thanks for everything. Bye, bye. And I got up and left. What else do you do? Right
Trevor l Yeah, what else do you do?
Robin | There was nothing left to say. So anyways, I was calling my best friend on the phone on my way back to my condo, going like, this just happened. But to tell you the truth, I was like, he just gave me the best gift of like, telling me exactly where he was at, and I didn't take it personally, like, I'm not gonna be with somebody that doesn't find me, like, that's not gonna and the way he said everything, the way I was, like, you're not my guy and it but it was like, I was secure enough to be like, like, it was just like, I laughed about it because it did hurt. But then I was laughing. I'm like, That was hilarious. I mean, seriously,
Trevor l That was hilarious.
Robin | My my insecure self would not have handled it that gracefully, or, like, you know whatI mean? It's so I think that that says a lot about, like, how secure I was feeling.
Trevor l Yeah, yeah. And you didn't pre plan that moment, right? You, you didn't, you didn't say, okay, I'm going to respond this way because we try to sometimes manage. And that's kind of the almost fake it till you make it strategy. You have to, you have to run through the scenarios ahead of time and be like, okay, this is how I'm gonna do it, which is helpful at times. Sure, that's great love that be intentional. But when you are secure, you don't have to really plan, because you just react from a new place. You're reacting. And here's the, this is it. You're reacting in from a place of fear when you are in your anxiousness, attachment or insecurity. You are reacting from a place of love when you are in your security, love for them, love for yourself.
Robin | Yes
Trevor l It's just love and respect. And that's really the simplified definition of the difference.
Robin | Oh yes, it is. Oh my gosh, Trevor, so I want to hear more about, tell us about this course that you, that you put on, because I think it's, it's, it's different than other, you know, we can all sign up for different courses, but I think this one is different and, like, it's so integrative, right?
Trevor l So that's I guess, to help understand like the nature of this is and this is also revealing things, whether you join our course or not, it doesn't really matter to me. It's it's about giving you some bits of information that might be helpful if you feel stuck, if you're like, I'm doing therapy, I'm reading books, I'm doing the podcast. It's not working, and usually there's one or all four things are missing here. Number one is that you don't have the emotional experiences that heal you in your therapy, in the books and the podcasts, a lot of times, you're just getting new information so much
Robin | Right
Trevor l The time people say, I go in, we just kind of talk about my week, and then I leave and I don't really know, like, I don't feel any different. There was nothing earth shattering. Sometimes we realize something from my past, and that's kind of nice, and that's cool and but there's no emotional experiences that transform me. So that's one challenge. Number two is there's not enough repetition. You know, you're going maybe once a week, maybe every other week, and if you're getting in any kind of repetition, it's a bit random, right. Like I'm reading this book, I'm listening to this podcast, and those are all good things. Fill your mind with good things. That's wonderful, but your nervous system needs repetitive emotional experiences that heal you deep down. The next one that we we just heard people complaining about, so we figured we fix it is structure. You know, I go to therapy, I don't have any assignments. I don't know what to do next. I don't know where I'm going. I don't know if I'm making progress. How long is this going to last? And there's honestly, this is horrible. Some therapists are going to HATE me for saying this therapy itself isn't built in a way to keep therapists accountable for results. It keeps them accountable for, like, ethical and keeping their people safe and all that, which is beautiful
Robin | But results.
Trevor l No, yeah. I mean, every time you come, they get paid.
Robin | They know it's working. How do I know if I'm getting better?
Trevor l Exactly and like, what incentive, other than their good heart, do they have to make you get better if they're getting paid every single time you show up? That's kind of a little controversial, so I'll keep going, but it's the structure and the plan. And then the other piece is just community. You were wounded in a moment where in relationships, you were not seen in your rawness in who you were with safety and love. And so we want to give you an opportunity to show up in your rawness, in your anger, in your shame, in your hurt, and then a community that says, I love you and I accept you who you are, I see you and I am actually not just seeing you. I am like you. And so the secure self club kind of fixes all four of those things, the structure, the community, the repetition and the emotional experiences. It's a four month experience where we deep dive into what's called the secure self journey, through individual coaching, through group coaching, through some self LED modules. That's where a lot of like the assignments and the homework comes in. So it's, it's not so much even like a course, like, of course, it's part of it. It's like a very small part of it, but the community and what's amazing, it's honestly becoming a bit of like a movement within the within the people that we work with, because by time they're done, they're going, we want to keep meeting together, because we do it in cohorts. So it's
Robin | Friends right
Trevor l Small difference. And so, yeah, we, we're we do, like retreats together. We we continue to meet as a group. I work intimately, like I'm involved. I join every single group call and lead all of them. It's just an enriching experience for those who say, I want to become secure and I need one resource. I'm exhausted reading all the books and all the podcasts. I just want one place to go, and I want it to happen faster than sitting in therapy for four years. It's like, cool. Let's do four months instead.
Robin | I think, I think it's um, I think it's awesome. All of those pillars that you talked about are so important the community piece. I think when you bring together like minded people that are like, you know, we're all going in the same direction, which is towards our most secure selves and all out of love. It's like amplification, like our healing is amplified in community.
Trevor l Yes
Robin | Well, you have to be with right people, but that really is like a powerful force, like coming together in service of each other and yourself
Trevor l Yes.
Robin | And at the end of the day, Trevor, it's like we're all becoming more secure, which means we're gonna create better relationships. And I'm all about, like, creating a more loving world. I mean, at the end of the day, it sounds altruistic, but it's true. If you if we have better relationships in our lives, we're showing up as our as more loving people.
Trevor l Yes, yes, it it's so true. And it's, you know, to talk about the community piece, we've actually kind of tracked this to see if there's a significant difference those who have group and have the community versus who don't, but everything else is the same. Those who have the community piece, they accelerate multiple factors faster than those who do not. And it's kind of hard to track, because it's a little bit, you know, it's just people telling us and, you know, selecting on a sliding scale how they feel. But there is actually notable difference that we can see in that in those who have the community and the connection. So it's worth doing.
Robin | I don't doubt it. Well, thank you so much Trevor Hanson for your time today. I just love talking to you. It was awesome.
Trevor l So much. Yes, it's been a joy.
Robin | I'm gonna close with a blessing. I love doing this, So may we remember the more we fear abandonemet the more likely we are to abandon ourselves. May we build self trust by listening to then guiding and comforting our inner child. May we understand that in order to feel secure in our relationships, we must start by being secure in our relationship with ourselves, and may we give ourselves grace and self care. Becoming secure in ourselves is a practice, and we will definitely get there over time. So I know that's I know a lot to be true, because I have been walking this path, and I can see the changes in myself, because I'm so much more secure, and I'm so glad that you're helping people get there. Trevor, it's awesome work.
Trevor l Oh, thank you so much, Robin, and you as well. I love what you're doing. I keep watching it, and I'm just like, I'm so excited for all of that, and I'm so grateful that I get to be part of what you're doing now, just even being here is so meaningful. And you as a person, I have loved talking with you. I didn't know you personally before, but now, my gosh, like I've she's my friends
Robin | We're friens now, so buddy, we're gonna know each other again. I know we are
Trevor l I know we are yes,
Robin | Thank you.
Trevor l Thank you.
Robin | Thank you so much for being here with us. Let's Talk Love is brought to you by real love ready and hosted by Robin Ducharme. If you'd like to keep learning with us, visit realloveready.com for more resources and tools to boost your relational skills and get better at love. If this podcast has resonated with you, it would mean the world to us if you could take just 30 seconds to do these three things, follow or subscribe. Never miss an episode by hitting the follow or subscribe button wherever you listen to your podcasts, whether it's Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite app, this makes sure new episodes show up automatically for you, and it helps us get more visibility so more people can find our show. Leave a rating and review. Your feedback means everything to us. By leaving a five star rating and a thoughtful review, you're not only showing your support, but also helping others discover the podcast, share an episode that really spoke to you with someone in your life, whether it's a friend, partner or family member, your recommendation could just be what they need to hear. We at Real Love Ready acknowledge and express gratitude for the Co Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work and play. And encourage you to take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded it and continue to steward the land that you live on as well many blessings and much love.