Let’s Talk Love Podcast Season 5 Episode 2 with Vanessa & Xander Marin | Transcript
05.10.23
This transcript is from the Let’s Talk Love Podcast, available in our Podcast Feed.
Robin Ducharme | Today on Let's Talk Love. I sat down with Vanessa and Xander Marin to talk about their book Sex Talks, where they share five conversations that will transform your love life. Vanessa is a licensed psychotherapist with 20 years of experience in the sex therapy field. Xander refers to himself as a regular dude who has been married to a sex therapist for over a decade. They say the loss of spark isn't actually about the loss of the spark, it's about the lack of communication. Vanessa and Xander give us real and practical ways to learn more about ourselves and our partners and dialogue to talk about it openly, clearly and lovingly. I highly recommend their book and following their work for ways to improve your sex life. As I say at the end of the podcast, life is too short not to have great sex. Enjoy. Welcome to Let's Talk Love the podcast that brings you real talk, fresh ideas, and expert insights every week. Our guests are the most trusted voices in love and relationships. And they're here for you with tools, information, and friendly advice to help you expand the ways you love, relate and communicate. We tackle the big questions not shying away from the complex, the messy, the awkward and the joyful parts of relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme. Now, Let's Talk Love.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of Let's Talk Love. Today we are going to be talking about I think hopefully, some of our favorite subjects our favorite subject sex, which is like I'm so excited about this. We have very special guests husband and wife, Vanessa, and Xander Morin. Thank you for joining us.
Vanessa Marin | Thanks so much for having us. We're really excited to be here.
Robin Ducharme | We I've been preparing for our podcast and loving your book i and I've been Sex Talks. It is such a fantastic book. And I can't wait to dive in to the content and ask questions and just go through. First of all, I would just love to know, so your book is five conversations that will transform your love life. And I read a lot of sex books. Every week, I read a new relationship book. And I have to say this is one that I'm going to come back to time and time again. And I hope all of our audience reads your book and listens to your book. I love listening to it and reading it because you both have your stories are really funny, and how you interact. You know, you're you're like that on your podcast, your podcast is called Pillow Talks and which is excellent.
But I just love listening and also reading it. So I bet it's gonna become like one of my, my sex Bibles. Because there's a lot that you just can you can go back to a lot of conversation tips, a lot of ways that you can engage with your partner about talking about sex. So kudos to you on writing an excellent book.
Vanessa Marin | Thank you so much. It never gets old seeing it in somebody's hand. And yeah, it's such an honor to hear that it's one of your favorites, especially knowing that you read so many,
Robin Ducharme | Definitely. So why don't we just start on why you wrote this book, like what inspired you to put it in with everything you're doing through your audience into a book?
Vanessa Marin | Honestly, the very first idea to write the book happened many years ago, at the beginning of our relationship, you know, we went through something that I think so many couples can relate to, you know, when we met each other, it was hot and heavy, the chemistry was great, everything felt so natural and effortless and easy. And I think we both really took that as a sign that, hey, I found my person, we're compatible. The chemistry is great, like this is it. And then we got a year or two into the relationship and life started catching up to us. We weren't having sex as often the sex that we were having was pretty predictable and routine. And both of us started wondering like, what happened, what happened to all this amazing chemistry that we used to have. And we really struggled at the time to figure out how to talk about what was going on. Like it was obvious to both of us what was going on, but we really struggled to talk about it.
Xander Marin | We made a lot of mistakes along the way.
Vanessa | We made a lot of mistakes along the way. And so it wasn't until years later that we had built up this business. We've created all of these courses and and really focused on helping couples keep the spark alive and their long term relationships. And I knew that I wanted to write a book and I kept going back to those early experiences of our relationship and our own struggles. And once we created this business together, you know Xander and I we were talking about sex every single day together like it was for our business. But of course we were talking about it a lot you know in our own relationship. And I really started realizing like, the more that we talk about sex, the better our sex life is getting. So it was kind of this being able to experience both sides of it, like the npains of not communicating, and the joys of having so much communication that we realized, like, I think this is the thing we want to write about.
Xander | And yeah, and we really just wanted to write the book that we wish someone had given us. Back, you know, when we were a couple years into our relationship when we were really struggling. So that was kind of like, we were kind of picturing ourselves, you know, as we were writing it like, this is for that couple and no, I think most couples, probably 99% of couples go through that at some point in time.
Robin | Definitely. I think what you said, is going to resonate, you said a lot. But I think what you said around when we when we first meet somebody, there's this, there's this idea that yes, of course, you're like hot and heavy, and the chemistry is so great, and you're having sex like two, three times a day, maybe possibly. And for and you don't even think about it, it's effortless, you just want each other and it's just this like animalistic, like this. It is so biological. That's the only thing we got kind of have to remember about this too. In the beginning, it's bringing two people together. And it's like, I don't know, we can get into the science of it. But it's natural. It's like something you're not really thinking about. And then as time goes on, you're that infatuation stage turns into, you're committing to each other and like, and all of everything kind of changes chemically, hormonally. And you settle into like real life, your real relationship, you start seeing things about your partner, and the sex does start to wane. You're no longer like these, I need to be with you like 24/7. But I think there's just an understanding that just even that by itself, for couples to remember, like that's totally natural. So you actually talk a lot of talk about that in the book, I think that's important for the understanding piece to notice. And this is such a common, and it's probably going to happen in your relationship.
Vanessa | Yeah, yeah, we really wanted to share our own story and kind of take the lead and be vulnerable and share that because I think we don't talk about sex very openly. And so so many of us are left feeling like something is wrong with our relationship. And, you know, it's one thing when you're just starting to date somebody and like having brunch with girlfriends and talking about like, oh, you know, the chemistry was so amazing was so great. But you get into the relationship, and it becomes so much harder, like even with your closest friends to talk about, like, yeah, I don't remember the last time my partner has initiated or that secret move that he thinks he has, I actually secretly hate it. And I've hated it the whole time. Like, it just feels so much more complicated. So we wanted to share our story and really take away the shame from it and help people realize like it is more normal for the chemistry in your relationship to wane than it is to just feel that passion, like for the entire time you're in your relationship.
Robin | Yeah. And what you what you say is the loss of spark isn't actually about the loss of spark. It's about the lack of communication. So that's what this that's what your book is really bringing home is that you really need to talk about sex. And it's such an important, important you talk about everything else in your relationship, as you say, right? And you talk about your job, you talk about what restaurant, what you eat for dinner, what are those that you're talking about everything else you relationship, but so many of us in our partnerships are missing the key piece is talking about sex, and talking about sex. So what you reminded me of when I was reading this, talking about sex is such an intimate act. It brings intimacy into relationship, as you said, you guys talk about it every day, because you work together and your this is your job. But the more you do talk about it, it brings more intimacy into your relationship. So getting beyond giving, giving people the tools to do that.
Vanessa | Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think the idea to talk about sex, that's nothing new. Like we've all heard that advice a million times. But the problem is that we don't know how to talk about it. So when you read that article online, and at the end of the article, it says talk about it with your partner,
Xander | Just talk about it!
Vanessa | They were left wondering like, Okay, I know I'm supposed to but how do I talk about it? What do I say? When do I say it? How do I phrase it? What if I'm worried my partner is gonna get upset or their feelings are gonna be hurt? So we wanted to take this concept, and really get into the nitty gritty specifics. That's what we love to do. We hate generic advice. So we wanted to come up with these five conversations that we think every couple can benefit from having and walk you through exactly what to say when to say it, how to say it so that you can have these incredible conversations that like you're saying, like brings so much intimacy into your relationship. Like we didn't want to write this clinical book of okay, now you have to talk about this, and now you've talked about that this is sex we're talking about it should be fun, it should be passionate and playful and pleasurable and all those things. So we want the conversations about it to feel fun, too.
Robin | Yeah. So before we get into the conversations, the first part of the book is really, you're really looking at trying to understand yourself, and your partner's what you call sex manual. Right? So can you talk to us about what because there's two different types of sex drives? That's the other thing that, you know, I, I'm learning more about this, and we're educating our community on it. But I just think we just we need more, we need to understand more how our bodies actually operate. Because it's not just, you know, in the beginning, like, I think what we're talking about is it you know, we've got hot and heavy rock chemistry, it's like, there's a lot of spontaneous sex going on. It's like, you just want it all the time, right. But when you're settled in, and it's like time has passed, actually, you're our own bodies sex drives are can be quite different, like between partners. So can we can you go through that with us?
Vanessa | Yeah, so like you were saying, the first section of the book is all about understanding yourself better. And I think that's really important for people, especially for us, women, so many of us feel like we don't really know who we are sexually. It's like, well, what do I like? And what do I want? You know, your partner asks you like, what do you want in the moment? And you just go blank, like, I don't know, what are the options? So we really wanted to help people explore and understand more about their own sexuality before we go into these conversations with our partners. So one of the one of the things that we talk about is what your what you just brought up the two sex drive types. So most of us don't know that these two types exist. And most people feel like desire is just supposed to be spontaneous. That's how you see it on TV. That's how you see it in the movies. That's often how we experience it at the beginning of relationships. Like,
Xander | That's how we always talk about it with friends, like, Oh, I just wanted it so bad. Yeah, did that. And then it was like, we were just rolling around in bed.
Vanessa | Yeah, you know, just comes out of nowhere. But there is a different SEC stereotype which is called responsive. So these two types boil down to where we feel desire first, so we can feel desire mentally, like the idea of sex sounds good. And we can feel desire and arousal physically, like our bodies start to get excited and ready to have sex. So spontaneous sex drive is when mentally the desire comes up mentally first, and then the physical arousal follows. So that's when you get that idea out of nowhere that hey, sex, sounds fun, I want to go find my partner right now. Responsive desire is the exact opposite. You feel it in your body first, and then your head catches up and thinks like, oh, sec, sounds like a good idea. So the classic way to know that you're responsive, and by the way, the majority of women are responsive SEC stereotypes, that the classic way of knowing is if you've ever found yourself in the middle of sex, or at the end of sex, even thinking to yourself, This is really fun. Why don't I want this more often. So the really important thing to understand is that if you have responsive desire, it doesn't mean that you're low desire or no desire, it's just that your body has to be turned on first. So if you approach a mentally a responsive sex drive type, you know, just out of the blue, like, Hey, are you interested in sex? Do you want to have sex right now? They're almost always going to say no, because they haven't had any physical stimulation yet. So it's just a really crucial misunderstanding that so many women in particular have, we're we're beating ourselves up for thinking, Oh, my God, my sex drive is so low, when we're just actually in reality, not understanding that we need to give our body attention first.
Xander | And then the second big misunderstanding that, that so many of us have is, you know, we hear that information. And we go, Oh, ha, so like, maybe, maybe I do have a responsive type, or maybe my partner is responsive, tight. But if I rewind it back to the beginning of our relationship, didn't it seem like we are having all this spontaneous sex? And we like to kind of challenge that and say, Was it really that spontaneous at the beginning, because the reality is, most people in the beginning of a relationship when they start dating, as soon as you start having sex, like, every time you're planning a date, you are essentially planning, planting the seed that you are going to have sex and so you are thinking about having sex like, bit possibly many days in advance of that day, you know, as you're coming into that date, you're getting excited, you know, you're getting all pumped up getting dressed, you know, putting on you know, doing, you know, trying to look your best or whatever it is, and like, you know, so even if you are a responsive type, like you are you are getting yourself ready over the course of many hours to have sex and then we remember that as Oh, it was just so spontaneous. But the reality is, is that we put a lot of effort in at the beginning of a relationship and then you know, and then it's you know, later Iran, maybe after we are more committed, we're living together that, you know, if someone is spontaneous, it is more likely that you are just going to get that random question like, Hey, want to do it in the middle of the day? And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, like, I don't want to do it, because I'm not I'm not prepared. I haven't put any effort into that yet.
Robin | Yeah. There's just so many lessons that I learned from reading this, because that just brings up so many questions for me around, which is, so there's just all these things that people can relate to? And well, we'll get into it. But I want to talk about the five conversations, because I think that's important for us to go through. So conversation one is, is the importance of acknowledgment that really sex is a thing and we have it right. Like it's just like, alright, like this is. So can we let's go through let's let's go through that when to start out with why is acknowledgement. The first question that you want to address, conversation steak that
Vanessa | Most people make when they talk about sex is they wait until they don't want to talk about it, and they wait until something is really wrong or bad. And then they're so anxious to bring it up to their partner that then their partner feels the anxiety and it just turned into this big awkward, uncomfortable conversation or maybe even a fight. So what we wanted to do is help people avoid that conversation, because that, of course only reinforces like, Oh, I do not want to talk about sex, it goes badly whenever we do. So we want to take a completely different approach. And we want people to start with getting comfortable talking about sex in a positive or even a neutral way. So we don't want to go in with the complaints or the criticisms or even their requests, we just want to get comfortable talking about it. Because the reality is so many couples, even couples who've been together years or decades, like haven't had a genuinely open, useful and productive conversation about sex, which is wild.
Xander | Yeah, are they you, maybe you have a lot of roundabout conversations, right? Like, you know, sort of like, Hey, want to do it, but not much else more than that. That's
Vanessa | Just an initiation, that's not a conversation even. Right. So we wanted to start with just getting comfortable with sex as a topic of conversation. So that's what this acknowledgment chapter is all about. So here's a great like little exercise that people can do after listening this episode is take a moment to think about one of your favorite sexual memories with your partner, and then share that memory with them today. So you can share it face to face, if you're really nervous, you can even text it. But all you're doing is sharing the memory like, you know what popped into my head today, like I was just thinking about that anniversary trip that we took that hotel that we stayed at in Mexico, and we stayed in bed all day that one day like that just popped into my head randomly. It's just a fond memory, so I wanted to share it with you. So even though that sounds, you know, like a pretty simple like is that even a conversation like you're actually doing a lot of things with that you're starting to create this foundation in your relationship, that sex can be a safe and fun topic to talk about. So you're not giving you know, any complaints to your partner, you're not making any requests of them, you're not telling them anything you're doing, they're doing wrong. You're just giving them this experience of hey, we can talk about sex, and it can be fun and sexy and flirtatious. And there doesn't have to be any sort of ulterior motive behind it either.
Robin | Right? And so you're, you know, you share a story in your book about, you know, your anniversary trip to South Africa, and you're, you know, you're having sex with the elephants watering hole and all. That actually was just like, so really, it's like you said, you're bringing intimacy on this, this very special experience you both shared. And I like the idea about having like, you know, you've got inside jokes, you've got this history together, and just sharing that experience. And then of course, it will bring up more conversation hopefully around like, what do you think like, let's, let's create more of these experiences. It opens the door. Yeah. Right. Yeah,
Vanessa | Yeah. Yes. So yeah, all you're trying to do in that first conversation is just getting comfortable talking about and so we walk you through other things, too. Like if you're somebody who just hasn't even said a lot of these words out loud. There are some exercises for you in there and just other ways to talk about it. But without any sort of goal. You're not trying to do anything other than just get comfortable talking about it.
Robin | Yeah. Okay. So what would be the next conversation? That's really important.
Vanessa | Conversation two is connection. What do we need to feel close to each other? So we want to talk about emotional intimacy, which I think may surprise some people they may think like, oh, this is a sex book. When are we talking about the kinky fantasies? Emotional intimacy is so important in a relationship like too often we think of sex as something that just happens at the end of the night with in the bedroom with the door locked and the lights turned off. And we compartmentalize it, but that's just like not a good approach to it, because how the two of you relate to each other throughout the day, it's going to affect how you show up in the bedroom at the end of the night.
Xander | Yeah, we hear from so many couples who are like, got like, we haven't been having sex. It's been months and months like what's going on? And the first question is like, what's going on otherwise, with the two of you? Like, how was your How was your general connection? And it's like, oh, well, we're super busy, you know, with work and the kids, we never see each other. When we see each other. We're only arguing. But we're not having sex. And like, if we were having sex, maybe what those other things wouldn't be happening. It's like, well, maybe it's all those other things that are impacting the sex, like, of course, you're not having great sex, because you're not having much of a connection right now.
Robin | You talk about this in some of your podcasts as well. Around, there's different types of there's different ways that we want to connect, right? It's like one person wants to have, needs to have sex in order to connect, and the other person feels connection through sex or through, sorry, you need an emotional connection in order to have sex. And the other person is like, well, in order for me to feel connected to you, I have to have sex does that, did I say that in the right way? I think that is pretty common with couples.
Vanessa | Interplay, the interplay between physical and emotional intimacy, like usually in a relationship, you're going to each want something different first, like, I want to feel close to you for a while, I want to have sex with you first, because that's how I feel close to you. And so it can feel like a real source of tension for a lot of couples, like, well, how are we supposed to, you know, I want my thing to come first of all, I want my thing to come first.
Robin | Yes. And I think that that is just and this is how maybe a lot of couples end up in like a standstill, where Okay, they're having this like major dry spell, if there's a difference, you know, that there's a lot of things that could bring on a dry spell. But this was you share this, I just want to put out there that I just love the fact that in your in all your work, you're always sharing you, this is why you work so well together. It's like you're sharing your clinical experience, Vanessa and you know, being a psychologist and sex sex therapist, and Xander you're married, you're just this regular guy that just will share my experiences. And now of course, you becoming an expert yourself just working in this field. But I just love the juxtaposition. And also the fact that you share your real stories. And you do share about how you went through a dry spell, like we all do in our partnerships. But you were Vanessa, you were like, I just wanted him to like be like come on, let's like, initiate and you're then you're getting overtime, getting really kind of pissed off. Right? Like, okay, and then you're like, you know, you're kind of just kind of angry, and I could I've been in this place, right. A lot of us have. And then Xander, you're feeling the same way or like, well, I don't really want to have sex with some angry person. And she, and I want her to initiate too. So it's just this like, you're at this place. But what happened in the end, right, when you tell the story is that you talked about it, which is what you need to do. And then you came to understand each other, that this is how I'm feeling this is why I'm not initiating. And then can you just talk about that a personal example? Yeah, and how you actually did come together.
Vanessa | In this example, we're actually the opposite of what the typical gender role that we see is. So typically, we see women are the ones who want to feel emotionally connected before having sex, and men feel emotional connection by having sex that were the opposite. So I'm somebody who, you know, one of the ways that I feel close to Xander is when we are having sex, and he wants to feel close to me before having sex. So what one of the big misunderstanding is that we had a bunch of them. So first of all, like we both want both things. Yeah. So we were getting stuck in this stand still of like, well, I want my thing first, and forgetting that, like, we both want emotional intimacy, and we want physical intimacy. And we didn't realize that we were each like trying to get both of those things in different way. So it took us having this conversation and Xander laying it out that way and saying like, you know, I like I it's hard for me when we've had a period of disconnection, like jumping to the sex doesn't feel good for me. Like, I feel like I'm having sex and disconnected sex and it doesn't feel like intimate. And I realized in that moment, like, oh, we're approaching this in such different ways, because for me, I'm like, we're feeling disconnected. So I want to jump into the sex., so we can like jump start feeling reconnected with each other again.
Xander | Oh, yeah. And sorry. And yeah, what we ultimately came to realize was that it is it's ultimately so much, it's, it's most important to make sure that there's a baseline level of emotional connection there because at the end of the day, you want that sex to feel safe to both partners. And so I think that you know, a lot of people get in their heads about okay, how can we compromise about that, or how can we give each partner a little bit of one or the other, but we actually talk a lot in the, in the connection conversation about how to maintain a baseline level of connection and really understand each other around connection. So that, you know, you're not getting into the situation of feeling like only one person gets to win.
Vanessa | Yeah, that that was a realization that I had to come to as a therapist. And it was very difficult for me, I shared this in the book, like, I wanted, like, I want my thing to come first, I wanted to come up with some reason of like, no, I think sex really is the cure for creating more emotional intimacy for everybody. But in working with so many clients, and you know, talking to our community, and a lot of conversations that we had in our own relationship, I realized like, yeah, I do think it actually is important for the emotional intimacy to come first, especially if a couple has been going through a difficult time, because it just doesn't feel safe to the person who's, you know, wanting that emotional intimacy to have to jump into physical. So we encourage couples to create, like Xander was saying like this have a closer connection with each other. And in that, in this chapter, we talk so much about like, very practical, simple, everyday ways you can maintain that connection. So it doesn't feel like you're always getting into these like deficits and then having to work back up into feeling connected again.
Robin | Right. And I love how your book has has, like you said, a lot of tangible, practical conversations, questions, ways that you can come together. So you've got a list of questions that you like you want to you said, You sent me about learning your partner's user manual, and how you want you want to learn how you want to receive love, and how your partner receives love. So and it's, it's more than it is love languages, but it's more specific. So you've got really, like, I love the questions, you're saying, well, one question would be, what are three to five specific things that can help you feel connected to me? Like what are three to five favorite ways you like to receive love, and I can think of ways for instance, like with, with my husband, it was like, I wanted to laugh and just have more fun. That's how I feel connected to you, we need to do more of that. Right? And he might be surprised to learn that, but it's like, that's the top of my head. That's how I really, really feel the most connected to you. And for him, it might be, well, I just want to sit and just talk and hold hands. Okay. Right. When you listen, you talk about these things, you know, and then do them, you don't know.Right?
Vanessa | Yeah. And it's just so important to get specific. I think one of the big, big problems that we have in relationships is we throw out these general things like, Well, I just want to feel closer to you, or I just want you to care more. And it's like, but what does that mean? You know, like, for me, like, what makes me feel close to Xander is so different from what makes him feel close to me, which is going to be so different from what makes you feel close to your husband. So we have to, like get down into the specifics for ourselves to like, understand ourselves better. And to share that with our partner too.
Xander | Yeah, when we talk about it, you know, in a vague sort of way like that, or we don't talk about it at all, what ends up happening is, you know, we end up just we see the world through our own eyes. And so we tend to assume, okay, well, this is the way that I like to receive love. This is the way that I like to feel cared for, or this is, you know, this is the way I like to feel connected. And so I'm going to do those things for my partner. And you know, like you said, almost every partnership, almost everyone has a different order of you know what the top thing is. And so for me, I'm a I'm a big, physical touch person I love when Vanessa comes and gives me a hug out of nowhere. And so, you know, I used to do that all the time to her. And it was like, huh doesn't seem like this lands very well. Like it's
Robin | Not reciprocated. But yeah,
Xander | is she? Is she not that into me? What's the deal? Right, and then, you know, it took many, many years, till I realized that Vanessa is number one thing is compliments. She loves receiving compliments. And, you know, I learned what some very specific compliments are that really light her up. And if I throw one of those in, you know, at a random time in the middle of the day, like she just gets this big goofy grin on her face, you know, like the same way I feel when she gives me a hug out of nowhere. So now that we understand that we know in any given moment, like what the best way is to supercharge that connection, even if we're feeling a bit disconnected.
Robin | Oh, it's just so it's powerful stuff. Okay, these are not complicated things, but that's important for you to understand. It's just that just goes back to understanding your partner and yourself so that you can just it's great, such a stronger bond. So and I really liked the exercise which I this was a new one for me that 30 and 60 Study. I really I've heard the long kiss, but the 30 second. So this so can you talk about the 30-60?
Vanessa | Yeah, these are two research back two ways to get connected to your partner quickly. So there has actually been research showing that a 30 second hug and a six second kiss. Really deep and lasting feelings of connection, closeness and intimacy, they just skyrocket up our oxytocin levels. And I love both of these because like, who doesn't have 36 seconds in their day, I don't care how busy you are, you can find 36 seconds to create this connection with your partner.
Robin | And you give you give examples. Xander you talk about how Vanessa did this, it was just like, again, this goes back to the acknowledgement. It's like acknowledgement of each other. So it's like when, when you're seeing each other for the first time in the morning, getting, you know, getting up at different times, it's like, looking at your partner in the eyes and being like, good morning, how are you? How was your sleep? It's just these are simple things. But we can't we can get lost in our own in our in our book or our phone or just whatever we're doing. And, you know, it's just these are these are not, these are, these are very important things. Let's just say that, right?
Vanessa | Yeah, simple things, but they're so powerful. And that's those are really our favorite techniques to find. Because, you know, so often people think like, oh, well, we just, we have to go away on a vacation together, we have to go to like a Couples Retreat or something like that, like, that's great if you can, but yeah, cherry on top type of thing, what we're really looking for, like, what are the things that you can do on late on a Tuesday night when you've had a crappy day, and you just want to feel connected quickly. Like we want the maximum bang for your buck.
Robin | You know, you talk about rituals, and how rituals are very important in a partnership. And you're you do these things daily, which is that's where I think we want to get to is like, every day we do these things to keep ourselves connected. This is preventive medicine. And so this is, you know, you talk about every night, you cuddle in bed for five minutes, or however long it is right. And you take your dogs for a walk everyday together. So this is your connection time that you make time for each other. This is anyways, I just I just love the examples you give. So it's good.
Vanessa | Yeah.
Robin | So
Xander | I think with a lot of oh, sorry, I was just gonna say I think with a lot of those really simple things, it's easy for those pieces of advice to go in one ear and out the other. It's like, oh, yeah, well, like, obviously, I should know what my partner, you know how my partner likes to feel connected to me. But it's actually it is creating that habit or creating that ritual with that seemingly simple piece of advice. That is when it starts to get really powerful, because well hear me, oh, that's so simple. And you do it once you're like, oh, cool, that was great. And then you forgot about it. And it's like a month later, and you're like, oh, shoot, I was I was supposed to try to make you laugh because you love that. So it's actually you need to rewire your brain to like, it's not that it's simple. It's like, oh, it's simple, and I have to start doing this on a daily basis or a weekly basis and maybe even set some reminders for yourself until you get into that habit. And that habit becomes a ritual and then then that becomes a really meaningful thing.
Robin | And you did that you Xander you put a reminder on your phone to give us a compliments, because you're like that really worked like I think I think your compliment to her was you kicked ass. Are you, way to go. You rocked it. I can't remember what exactly, but it's something along those lines. And she really responded in such a beautiful way and you're like, wow, I gotta do more of that. So So you've been your phone and set reminders, and then after so then we have to as human beings, we have to, like new habits take a while to form. So you said after a while okay, I never I no longer need the reminders. It was set into my like it has turned into a habit and it's a beautiful habit. So perfect. Good on ya. Yeah. So conversation three is what do we each need to get turned on? This is about desire. So this is learning more about what what actually so can you go into the meat of that conversation?
Vanessa | Yeah, so this is talking about what do you each need to feel excited about intimacy. So we talk about you know, once you in part one discovered what your sex drive type is sharing that with your partner in this conversation. We also talk about a model that we developed called the initiation styles helping you and your partner each understand like what are the specific ways that you like sex to be initiated? How do you like to be invited to be intimate with your partner? So this is all about like getting excited to connect with each other and experience that intimacy.
Robin | And this was this there's so many, because like you talked about before like off is a very often people will just be like, you want to do it like as xx, right? That's like one way to initiate but I think that's probably the most common way to initiate It's a long term partnership just like saying, and sometimes just like, like, what do you what? That you actually made a good point about that in the book? Like you go into that in depth about like, what exactly do you want to do? Like? Is it just a quickie? Or do you? I'm exhausted after work and I don't really want to get into a really long drawn out romantic sex session right now. You're asking me for a nice cuddle and a quickie? Maybe I'll say yes. But so it's being more specific. That was a good,
Vanessa | Yeah, initiation is is such a, it's an area that so many couples get into trouble with because we feel like we're not supposed to have to directly initiate like, when you ever you see sex on the movies and TV, like, it just happens, nobody's actually initiating it, right. So we don't know how to initiate we feel really vulnerable about initiating, we often don't love the way our partner initiates. But we don't know how to tell them what to do differently. And yeah, like you were saying, like, we also we don't initiate with any sort of specificity. So if you're exhausted one night, and your partner is initiating, like, it's gonna be a big difference for you. If they're saying, hey, I want to spend the whole evening together, you know, having romantic drawn out sex versus like, Hey, would you be open to a quickie? So it's learning how to get the confidence and the skill to initiate and how to do it in the right way. Because I really believe that so many couples are missing the opportunities for connection simply because they don't have initiation skills.
Robin | Yes, I there was a lot about this topic in your book, I loved it. So what happens there's also a large section about learning how to say no, in in a very compassionate way. So it's not just like, not into it babe like no. So because if you hear that over and over again, you're gonna stop initiating.
Vanessa | Of course, yeah, yeah, this is another skill that we've never had the chance to develop. And, you know, most of us, it feels so uncomfortable when your partner initiates, and you're not in the mood, that a lot of us end up being pretty short in our responses. So we might even, like, kind of tease our partner of like, oh, you're trying to have sex right now. Like, after the day we've had, you're crazy. And so it just can be, you know, turned into such a vulnerable experience for your partner, like, it always feels vulnerable to hear and know it, you know, actually, the longer you've been with your partner, often, the more vulnerable it feels. And so we need to learn how to handle these really well, because we want to encourage our partner to keep initiating and we ourselves like need to keep initiating so it's such a crucial skill for couples to learn how to say no to each other. And we really think we can teach you how to do it in a way that actually creates more intimacy rather than feels like it drives you apart.
Robin | So one of the things that you say, which is so good, is I'm turning down sex for this reason, like, let's say you give the reason. I'm not turning down you. That is wow,
Vanessa | I know personally Yeah. I think you know, most people, if they hear a no, they're gonna go to, it's all about me. And especially us as women, we can go to these places of like, I'm not sexy enough, I'm not pretty enough. Like my partner doesn't like my body, they've noticed the weight that I've gained, or my mom bod, all that kind of stuff can come up for us. But the reality is that the vast majority of the time people turn down sex because of the context that's going on the the situation. And so if we can learn to share what's going on with us with our partner, that's going to feel so much gentler and easier. Now the key is to share how whatever it is that's going on for you impacts the way that you might show up for intimacy. So I'll walk you through an example here like if Xander initiate sex with me and I say, No, I have a headache.
Xander | I'm like Yeah, sure. Yeah. Like again. All right.
Vanessa | Yeah. It kind of feels like the classic you know, excuse for for sex. But if I was to say to him, like, I, you know, I really appreciate you initiating I have such a bad headache right now though and I know that it's not going to allow me to show up in the moment with you and be present and connected and have fun the way that we usually do and that's so important to me. Like then he's really getting the message that sex is important to me our intimacy is important to me the way that I show up with him is important to me. So it feels so much better than just a straight up no or even then like when I have a headache it's like it really drives home the point
Xander | Yeah, I think, you know, when you hear from people that are you know, kind of in a tricky spot with initiation where maybe one partner has been hearing a lot of no's what that partner will often say is, it feels like sex isn't important to my partner. It feels like I'm not important to my partner, but you know, if you if you hear what Vanessa just said, like she's literally saying in that sex is is really important to me, you are really important to me and I'm not able to, you know, to show up in a way that, you know, will give you that, you know, show you that importance. So, you know, so so let's do it a different time. And I think the other kind of bonus points that you can, you can add on top of that, if you're up for it, you know, obviously, if you have a migraine or something, you just need to lie on the couch, just lie on the couch. But if you're open to it, suggesting another form of physical or emotional intimacy can be really valuable. Like, hey, you know, like, you know, I have a really bad headache, you know, I can't show it the way I would like to, but I am totally open to cuddle on the couch and watch this TV show with you. Because so often we are just looking for emotional intimacy, whether it's through sex, or through something else. So instead of it just being like a no, and we go to separate ends of the room, and we don't talk to each other. It's like, hey, let's do something together, whether it's sitting on the couch, going for a walk, you know, maybe you know, a different sexual activity, whatever it is that you're open to, I think that way whoever initiated, you know, yeah, there is that vulnerability you are hearing and No, but you're also getting something else out of it.
Robin | Right. I can think of, first of all, we're going to talk about, how part of this question. So I can think of an example in my own life of like it is I think it hurts no matter like it stings, when you hear no, but when you're initiating no matter like you said, Where are you are in your relationship. So I can think of a time when we, my husband and I were on our trip, and I was like, would you like to make love? Like, really, I'm so like, I really don't want to do it right now, but let's go for dinner, let's go for a walk. And then when we come back, I'd love to. So it's like, okay, like there was this? In the future, we will get to that point. And it was it was great that night, right? So but that's the other part I want to ask you about is if you are saying no, and whatever reason that is that you're you have every right to say no. But are you also adding in somehow, like tomorrow or the next day like I would love to, or it's like you are is that you're putting the onus on the on the person that said no, to come back to the other person later on, right? In some sort of expectation.
Vanessa | That is one way that you can do it, like, of course, all approaches, you know, different things are going to work for different couples. But one way to approach it can be really nice is you know, if you're saying no to sex, then you are also committing to, I'm going to initiate with you next time so that you're creating more of a balance in your relationship, making sure you're both doing initiating because it is a vulnerable thing to do. You can also just build more time into it. So people often think of initiation is something that has to happen in that moment. But for a lot of people it it's actually more exciting to draw initiation out. So your partner might actually like for you, you know, maybe in the morning like, hey, do you want to be intimate tonight? Or do you want to be intimate tomorrow? It like gives you that time to build up some anticipation and to get yourself ready and excited for it. So it doesn't have to be like right now or nothing type of thing.
Robin | Right, right. So conversation four is about pleasure. And this is about what do we each need to feel good. So yeah, go ahead.
Vanessa | Yeah, this is such an important conversation. And you know, of course, like a huge part of why we have sex is to feel good, so many of us, you know, especially in long term relationships, like, we get into a little bit of trouble in this area, and we've been there ourselves, so we get it, but it's just so easy for us to slip into these routines where we're having the same old sex over and over again, and it's not feeling particularly pleasurable or enjoyable or exciting anymore. So the last two conversations actually are really about bringing more excitement into sex. And particularly in conversation for we also wanted to talk about in male female relationships, the orgasm gap, the the fact that we women are having far fewer orgasms and experiencing far fewer, like far less pleasure than our male partners are. So we talk a lot about how female pleasure really works, how we need to like balance the scales, so both partners can enjoy the experience. And this conversation also loops back to the desire conversation really nicely, because of something that we call the enjoyment desire connection, which is that if you are not enjoying the sex that you are having, you are not going to crave it, it wouldn't make any sense to but so many women feel and women in particular feel like you know, oh, I have no sex drive. What's wrong with me? I'm broken.
Robin | They're just not enjoying it.
Vanessa | One of the first questions we ask them is okay, well tell us about the sex that you're having. Well, it's boring. It's predictable. It's all about his pleasure. I don't really get anything from it. It's like well, why would you crave that then? It makes no sense to crave an unenjoyable experience. So the good news here is that you can kind of tackle two things at the same time. Like if you work on having more pleasurable sex, you're going to have more pleasure and more orgasms. And you're also going to increase your sex drive.
Robin | This is important stuff when I was like this. And there's there's a whole, the whole back part of the book is all about your about pleasure and learning how to be like you say, the two most common reasons for low sex drive, or lack of communication, which is very, very important and lack of enjoyment. So if you're like, you want to be enjoying what you're doing in the bedroom, otherwise, you're not going to want it. So,
Vanessa | Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Robin | So like I dog eared like a whole bunch of pages. Because this is about, like, you've got a section about where I like to be touched. And this is for you to understand yourself and talk to your partner about like, how I like to be touched, where I like to be kissed how I like to be kissed. And I think this is like your touch map, right?
Vanessa | Yeah.
Robin | And with the energy that turns me on, I was like, oh, that's an interesting, and there's all these choices that you can circle, and talk to your partner about something like that, so you and that's the other thing where you might have differences with your partner, like I want this energy, and he might want that energy. So it's good to know and good to talk about.
Vanessa | Yeah
Robin | So many things.
Vanessa | Yeah, we love giving options. Like, we don't want to just ask these open ended broad questions, because so many of us are like, Oh, I don't know. So there's so many exercises in the book where it's like, okay, here's a whole menu of options, what sounds good to you? And I think, yeah, the energy with that we want to have during sex is such a great question that most couples have never talked about before. But it's, you know, it makes such a big difference, the energy that we tend to enjoy, it's going to be so different from the energy that a different couple tends to enjoy. But if we never talk about I mean, just imagine, you know, you're in the mood for like your partner to be romantic and sensual and making eye contact and telling you how much they love you. And they're going for some like wild animalistic, like, intense pounding. You're like, what? What is happening? Yeah, so we want to get on the same page about like, okay, these are like the top five, kind of energetic experiences that we like to have with each other.
Xander | Yeah, I think a lot of people just don't realize that there are sort of options when it comes to the energy that you show up to sex with and when you don't talk about it, or if you've never really thought about that, you know, sex just it, you know, kind of turns into this narrow thing like, Okay, well, this is just how it is for us. And it's kind of always the same type of energy. And, you know, maybe that works for one or both of you most of the time. But the reality is probably one or both of you are going to be getting a little bit bored of that energy. But if you're feeling like you want to show up with a different energy, you don't know how to do that, because you feel kind of locked into the way that you've been doing it. So I think, you know, we really want to give people the language to be able to discuss, like, yeah, what, like, what is the experience that I want to have? And I think it kind of opens the possibilities up for people of like, Oh, we don't, it doesn't always have to be super serious. And like, just want the one or two positions that we usually do, like, oh, it could be goofy and playful. It could be, you know, it could be energetic and quick, or, you know, it could be all kinds of things. And, and I think that just, you know, like so many of us think like, oh, well, we have to do really kinky stuff to explore, it's like, you can explore all kinds of different energies. And you know, and like really expand your sex life, you know, without necessarily needing to do all these things that we think of like to have a really active or exploratory sex life.
Robin | Yeah, there is this section that I really love this about, about fantasies, right and talking to each other about what you'd really like to try. And you did a poll, and because you've got hundreds of 1000s of community members, and the poll was like, people are like not really resonating with the word fantasy. Righ?. And you this was really great, because you flipped it into what are you just curious about? What would you like to try that you've never start talking to each other about your curiosity, rather than this, because fantasy just is loaded word. Like I think about
Vanessa | Yeah
Robin | I was talking to my best friend about this yesterday. I'm like, I don't think I've got many fantasies. I'm curious about this curious about. So that was that just kind of opens it up.
Vanessa | Yeah, so this is conversation five exploration, like, what should we try next? And I think most of us, we've think of fantasy is something like, oh, that means I have to know that I'm super turned on by it and it's gonna give me the best orgasm I've ever had. And it's like this wildly kinky, very involved thing
Xander | Like and I can't stop thinking about it.
Robin | Yeah,
Vanessa | It doesn't have to be that way. If you have a fantasy that's amazing, but it doesn't have to be that way, so we love the word curiosity instead, like what something that you're curious about trying? But even like fantasies can also be things that you guys do already. It doesn't have to be something brand new. So another way to think about exploration is to think back to the earlier stages of your relationship. And like, what did you use to do during sex, that maybe you haven't done in a while? So if you feel very nervous about trying something new in the bedroom exploring, like, just go back to oh, yeah, we used to spend a whole lot more time using our hands on each other, or we used to do a lot of oral sex. And we haven't done that in a while, or were you to try a lot of different positions, like, just go back to something that you've already done, but just haven't done in a long time.
Robin | Yeah. So what if this is a question that we've, I've talked about with my friends before? Because I just think about like our boyfriends way back when and you're just like, oh, my god like that. That guy was such a terrible kisser. We like laugh about it. But like, what if you are with somebody and you're like, you're, and you're just not enjoying something that you're just doing on a regular basis with them? For instance, kissing? How, because I think I just I've learned so much from both of you on just even how to have these hard conversations. That's what a lot of your book is talking about. Like, you have to have the conversations, but there's a way to do it as well, in a loving way. And in a productive way.
Vanessa | Yes. Yes, feedback is such an important thing. This is in conversation for us, like how to give feedback and a helpful way. So like I was saying, like, right at the beginning of this interview, you know, the mistake that a lot of us make is we wait until we're really frustrated or really disliking something our partner is doing. And then we kind of come at them with like, oh, I hate the way you kiss, or like, the way you initiate is so bad. Of course, if we say it like that, that's going to hurt your partner's feelings, it's going to put them on the defensive, and they're not going to want to make any changes, because they're just going to feel embarrassed and ashamed. So instead, we have what we call positively pleasurable feedback, which is learning how to give feedback in a way that is like focused on the positive on what was what is working on what you like. So focus on asking your partner, you know more for things that you like, and you enjoy, rather than talking about the things that you don't like. And there's always a way to turn it around to flip it around and to focus on the positive. So one of the most classic examples that we hear is women say, you know, oh, he rushes to sex so quickly, it just like we're kissing and then 30 seconds later, he's trying to get inside of me. So again, if you say it like that, like, oh, why are you always in a rush? Slow down, like your partner's that's gonna hurt his feelings. But if you say to him something like, you know what turns me on so much, when you go so slow, you're touching me kissing me everywhere, and you get me to the point where I'm begging you to go further. Like, that just sounds sexy in and of itself, that's gonna be a turn on to your partner. But it also makes your partner feel so much more motivated to actually follow through on that. It's like you're telling him like, here is the golden key to making me feel good and enjoy the experience and crave this experience. And like kind of pumping him up already about like, it makes me feel so good when you do that. So it makes him feel excited and motivated to actually keep doing those things.
Robin | Right. Well, I just wanted to close on something that I thought was really important that you talk about a lot on your podcast, and in your book about appreciation, gratitude, focusing on the positives, like you just said, Vanessa, like how important those things are to do. And just your daily gratitude and your daily using using compliments and positive reinforcement in your relationship on a regular basis. And how really, how, how integral is that how important that is.
Vanessa | Yeah, research has actually found that gratitude was the number one predictor of marital success.
Robin | Yes
Vanessa | So I know most of us have heard of gratitude, and it's easy to be like, Wow, okay, I am grateful for my partner, you know, it just like feels kind of cheesy, but is the number one predictor of marital success that's wild. And gratitude is free. It's easy. It takes just a few seconds. Like it is the most low hanging fruit you can possibly imagine. But it's just so powerful like it we feel so good when our partner takes a moment to express their appreciation for us to say like, hey, I saw what you did, and I appreciated that or like I see this in you as a human being and I love that like it feels so good. So it's a great thing for couples to get in the habit of doing like just express your gratitude for your partner every day. Your relationship will be so much happier and healthier, I promise.
Robin | Yes, you give really good ways on giving compliments but also learning how to accept compliments.
Vanessa and Xander | Oh, yes.
Robin | So that's a whole other. That's a whole other topic. But I think it's just giving and receiving and just how important it is to go back and forth. I want to thank you both so much for this conversation. And I hope everybody that listens to this podcast reads your book, because I think it's like one of like I said, a sex Bible that we can all learn so much from him keep turning to. So thank you. Anyway, I'm going to close our conversation with all my podcasts, we close with a blessing. And it's based on the lessons that I learned from you. So may we keep being brave, work daily to stay connected, and keep talking about sex, because we are all capable of having extraordinary sex lives.
I think that we should be dedicated to life short, you know, we got to have good sex. So thank you so much.
Vanessa and Xander | Thank you so much for having us. Thank you.
Robin | Please visit realloveready.com to become a member of our community. Submit your relationship questions for our podcast experts. At RealLoveReady podcast@gmail.com. We read everything you send. Be sure to rate and review this podcast. Your feedback helps us get you the relationship advice and guidance you need. The Real Love Ready podcast is recorded and edited by Maia Anstey. Transcriptions by otter.ai and edited by Maia Anstey. We at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening. Take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.