Preamble | Robin Ducharme | Today on Let's Talk Love. I speak with John Kim, the Angry Therapist. We talk about self-care versus self love, the hazards of losing yourself when you're single or in relationship, how to manage conflict with your partner, and about continually updating our definition of love. The overarching theme of our conversation is about building a strong relationship with yourself so that you can build healthy and meaningful relationships in your life. There are a lot of gems John has to share. Enjoy.

Introduction | Robin | Welcome to the Let's Talk Love Podcast, where we flip the script on outdated narratives and cliches about love and relationships. I'm your host, Robin Ducharme, founder of Real Love ready. This podcast is for anyone who wants to be better at love, regardless, or relationship status. We'll talk about the intimate connections in our lives, and the challenges and complexities inherent in those partnerships. Through are no holds barred interviews with global experts we'll gain insight about ourselves and learn new skills to improve our relationships. Because when we learn to love better, we make the world a better place. Are you ready for open and honest conversations about love? Let's get started.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the next episode of The Let's Talk Love Podcast. Today, I am so excited to welcome our guest, John Kim, the Angry Therapist. He is a licensed therapist, relationship and life coach, speaker and best selling author. He's written three books: "The No BS Guide to Finding and Living your Own Truth", "I Used To Be Miserable Fuck", and "Single On Purpose: Find Yourself First". John offers no bullshit, uncomplicated, real-world experience and advice. He's someone his clients can relate to and I know I can relate to John. We have worked together a few times in Real Love Ready. And, John, I just want to thank you so much for giving us your time and wisdom today.

Elizabeth Overstreet | Of course, and thank you for having me, on many things, and now this this podcast, so congratulations on the podcast. And also thank you for saying the word "fuck". I was at a bookstore once—I was there a bookstore signing once and they said you didn't want to say the word, so they are like, the author of "I Used to be a Miserable Fudge" and I was like—"It's not the same". That sounds like a little piece of fudge that was not happy and that's not my story.

Robin | Well, actually, John, that's where I wanted to start. I just want to ask you where "the Angry Therapist" came from? Why do you call yourself the angry therapist? How did that even start?

John | Well, about 35 It's been like 13 years now. went through a divorce and had to start all over with nothing. And this is before some social media before Instagram before, I think Facebook was around. But I got on Tumblr, because I had a lot of time, and I started to blog and I didn't think anyone would read it. And I picked the Angry Therapist partly because I thought it was funny that a therapist is angry, you know, like a therapist actually expresses his feelings. And also, I used to be angry, I was unhappy. I was in my 20s and 30s, I was just busy chasing shiny things. I hit pause on life, and I didn't allow myself to be happy until I got the big things, the big things never came. And so I was miserable. And so I just thought it was the kind of a funny, appropriate title for a blog. And I didn't think anyone would read it. And then later as I started to build a community, and people would ask me that question. I thought, "You know what, it's actually my way of saying I'm human". And so this idea of humanizing the therapist pulling the curtain back, showing yourself because in therapy school, we're not really taught to do that. We're taught to be very neutral and be more of a cardboard cutout right. And so, me doing that kind of, I don't know, I feel like I hopped the fence. I feel like, you know, I was worried I started to work in unconventional ways, starting with the tone.

Robin | Mm hmm. Well, and you did say that in your book that you were angry at the clinical approach. The clinical system was broken in a lot of ways that you were experiencing.

John | Yeah, I started with a fire in my belly to help other people, and then by the time I got done...So I became a therapist because I was in my own therapy and my own therapist was like, you know, the screenwriting isn't working. What do you want to do? What would you do if you decided to change careers? I said, "I want to do what you're doing. If I can't, you know, affect your move people by the masses, I'll do it one at a time". I loved psychology, I loved, you know, processing and all that. And so he was like "Go back to school". And I was a kid who never got good grades. I don't like school, you know, I don't read books. And so I was like, "No, I don't think I could do that". He said, "Look, it's only two years". I thought you had to have a PhD, like, you just need a master's. So at 35, I went back to school, what he didn't tell me was after the two years, you need 3000 hours. And this is where I was like, man, and it took me five years.

Robin | That's a lot of hours.

John |

It's a lot of hours, and you're underpaid. You're overworked. And so, once I experienced all that, I realized, by the time you finish this, you almost no longer want to do this. Because of the system, you know. And, by the time you're out, you start doubting, you know, and I got really lucky because I started this blog, and then, you know, started being active on social media, I built a full practice and then that led to book deals and stuff. So I feel like I got lucky. But if but if that never happened to me, and if I never got on the internet, and I was just working in the clinical world, I don't think I'd be happy. I think I would just be punching a clock and wearing wrinkle free pants and not being myself. And I would be stuck in a job, you know, like a quote unquote, "job" job. And that's not what I wanted. And so I was like, man, we got to change this, you know? Yeah.

Robin | And so what it what is your book "I Used to be a Miserable Fuck" about? I've listened to "Single On Purpose", but I haven't read your other two books yet. Tell us about that.

John | Um, the pop up book! No, I'm just kidding. It's about my rebirth. Crossing the Great Divide from boy to man. I'm a late bloomer, I have addiction in my blood, and so it's kind of like, once I went through a divorce and start to rebuild myself: simple things like making my bed, you know, looking inward taking ownership. So it kind of tracks through kind of like short tips on how to adult. How to grow up. Yeah.

Robin | Yeah. So, I'm almost finished. I just have, like, maybe four minutes left on your "Single On Purpose" book...

John | Are you listening to it? Or are you reading it?

Robin | Yes, I love audiobooks. I've got a baby. And there's lots of life going on, right? So if I can take things in an audiobook...You know what, John it is fantastic.

John | Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.

Robin | This book is not just for singles. And I think that is one of the lessons that you share right away. It's about building a better relationship with yourself. So you can build healthy and meaningful relationships with others. Yeah, we know this, right? This is such an, a lesson that we're surrounded by. But this is, I think it's just so good.

John | Thank you so much, and you know, that that book: the birth of that book came from me coaching over the years thousands of mostly women in their 30s, who felt less than because they were single, like, you know, they put they hit pause on their life, because they haven't found quote, unquote, the one you know, and it's like, I'm not qubit I couldn't find them the one but what I could do is I could challenge their beliefs. I could ask themselves, "What have you started to connect to you first, as you, you know, explore and invest and date and all of that?" And that's kind of the how that book started was. And then also just realizing, we live in an interesting time where we've become baseball cards and swipe culture and ghosting, and the way that people meet today can be damaging, can be, you know, traumatic at times.

Robin | Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you're talking about happiness, and being single. And this is just like you said, there's this cultural idea that we have to find "the One" in order to be happy. I mean, that's just so false. You're gonna I've got so many quotes that I wrote down, John, that I want to share today from your book. And for those of you that are listening, you just have to download it, listen to it, because I also love the fact that you narrate the book and because you have such great humor. You're so funny. I was laughing out loud.

John | Yeah, I wanted to get Morgan Freeman to do it, but he wasn't available. Yeah, I hate listening to myself. I hate watching my videos all of that...

Robin | Oh no, it was fantastic! So this is the quote I wanted to share: "The truth is, you do not have to be in a relationship to be happy. A relationship is not required for you to be happy." Of course right? And you have this funny Barbie analogy....

John | Yeah Barbie never needed Ken! What is that about? Ken? Ken you know can can be gay, you know! All she needed was the that awesome convertible 'vet. But you know, Barbie is a great example of how society, how advertising, how the world says, "Okay, here's the house, here's the fancy car, and then here's the man and this equals quote, unquote, you know, success are happy", right? And so as a young kid, when you're playing with Barbie, you're very you're already like being programmed.

Robin | You are, you are. Definitely. And you said "It's time to empower singlehood and providing better blueprints for building happiness. It's time to celebrate singlehood." Which I think that is really powerful. I do believe that it's like, why are we questioning? "Why are you still single?" Well, how ridiculous is that?

John | You know, you go to a party. And if you've been single for a while, like over a year, you know, it's almost like, if you don't bring someone they almost like look at you like something's wrong, or like, "Are you okay? Or how can I help you?" And it's like, no, I'm single. It just means I have choices. You're in a relationships so you're done. You don't have choices. I have choices. You know, it's like I think we should give single hood a cape and Mattel if you're listening: there should be there should be a single Barbie, there should be a Barbie that's like, "I don't need a man. I'm good the way that I am right now."

Robin | That's right. That's right. So but you do you know what there's, there's so much honesty around this right? When you are single you know there's loneliness. Right? But maybe it's not—This was a powerful thing that I learned listening to your book is that: Of course, it's natural to be lonely. You want to share your life with somebody, right? We're naturally programmed—like in our DNA—to want to be with people and share our experiences. But you said "There's a difference with 'feeling lonely' and 'I am lonely'. Yeah. On is the experience any other is the identity."

John | The internalization. Yes. And a lot of my clients, they took the feeling of being lonely, which is a human feeling, and we all experienced it. But then they tied their worth to it. So their identity, their value, they became someone less-than because they were feeling lonely. And the feeling of loneliness is okay, you know, we even get sometimes we get lonely in relationships, too. Right? So feeling through that. But when we start to think that we're defective, because we are alone, I think that's when it can get dangerous, you know?

Robin | That's right. And so just you talked about radical, like, radically accepting, yes, radical acceptance, right? Because let's say—We do in our community, we have people in our a lot of people in our community that are wanting to be with a partner. They're trying many, many different ways to do this, right. And as you know, them, it can be a huge slog, right? It's like a full time job, you're online dating, you're, you're asking for introductions, you're doing anything, and everything you can, right?

John | Also, if you're, if you're successful, and you're you're used to putting in this much effort, and then you you know, you're used to building things you're used to just, you know, everything that you do is is quote unquote, "successful" but then when it comes to love and relationships, you're frustrated, because this is something you can't control.

Robin | Yes. But I think what you really hone in on is changing your beliefs. So yes, because even let's say it takes all this time, and you're putting all this effort in, rather than it becoming a problem of yours, right? It's like, "Oh, there's a problem with me. I must not be worthy, I must be faulty in some way". It's changing your mindset around that.

John | Yeah. Yeah. And I also know, it's not easy, right? I don't want to minimize because I've been single for stretches of, you know, say like four years. I think that was one of my longest stretches. And I was, I've experienced loneliness. I was wondering, "Am I ever going to find someone? Am I ever going to be, you know, am I going to have a partner again?" Like, I didn't know who I would meet next. I felt discouraged. I felt you know, all those things, right. So I get that that's a real feelin, but if you've been in a relationship, you're going to be in another one. You know? And my big question is not so much who you want to be. I think that's a great question when you meet someone, but how do you want to love? How do you want to love when you find someone you know, when you when you find someone who you want to invest in?

Robin | So how do you want to love so yeah, let's let's talk about that. How do you dive in with your clients on discovering that? And what questions would you would you ask me to self reflect on "How do you want to love?"

John | I would start by examining the black box, right? Many planes have gone down. We're 50% of any relationship. So not living there, but kind of going back and reviewing from a distance. What do you want to do that's different? How do you want to show up? That's different, right? Why did those relationships, why did they not work. And so exploring old patterns, taking ownership of what you bring to the table, right. And even if you were in a relationship that was toxic, or abusive, and of course, it was the other person that was toxic or abusive, we still we sit, we can still own things, whether it's enabling, or whatever it is, right, our energy. There's always something to own, you know, in any relationship, any exploration. And I also think that when you're single, the soil for growth is the richest, right? When you're seeing your man, you don't have one to you, all you have is yourself. And so when you're in a relationship, it's actually it's hard to work on yourself. Because now you're you have a partner, and you're doing life with each other and their schedules and all this stuff, we get busy very fast. When we're single, we have a lot more time to slow down and work on ourselves. So it's precious time. That's the ticking clock, not the, you know, whether you could have a baby or you getting older, the ticking clock is you're going to meet someone, how do you want to love when you do? You better get to work, you know.

Robin | Yes, and actually taking this time to celebrate being single so that you can do this work. It's an inter almost uninterrupted work, where you're not creating that container with somebody else. I love this. And then that's the and that's one of the things you do talk a lot about in the book is, this is rather than having this focus so much on the "we": "Okay, this is this is actually great. I've got this time for me." Learning and exploring yourself.

John | Yeah, and I don't think we practice that much. I think when we get into it. I mean, even from like the high school days, you know, we want to satisfy the other person take care of the other person. Many of us grew up very fast, right. And so this idea of taking care of you is foreign. We're not used to it. We know logically, we should do it, but we actually don't practice it. And so when you're single, it's really important to practice that. I took a lot of time going on motorcycle rides by myself taking myself out to dinner, sitting at diners, you know, speaking of audiobooks, listening to a lot of audiobooks, going on long walks, ditching work going to the beach, just a lot of things that I never did alone, you know, getting comfortable with me.

Robin | Yeah.

John | Yeah.

Robin | So I'm talking about understanding your patterns.

John | Yes.

Robin | I have a question from one of our communities, community questions. And this person's asking: "I'm just realizing, after my recent breakup, that I abandon people. I didn't abandon this relationship physically. but a big reason we broke up was because my partner said I didn't seem as connected as I once did. I've always been called very empathetic, sweet, in-touch with my emotions. But then there is this. I didn't even realize I was the real problem in this sense. Until recently, I'm the kind of person who tried to change my bad behaviors. So now that I'm realizing this, I need to know how to change."

John | Yeah. And I think what's important, what a great realization, revelation that "Oh, I actually abandon" and that could come from fear that could come from I mean, I mean, it's so many different reasons. That's the behavior that's coming from somewhere. So the next piece is to explore why, you know. Why do you run? Are you in fear of it? Are you afraid of rejection, afraid of intimacy? Do you believe you don't deserve love? I mean, there's so many things that could possibly be promoting this kind of behavior. And so once you follow that string down, and it's going to be, you know, tied to your story, what happened, all of that kind of stuff, and you understand yourself better, and you're like, "Oh, I abandon and here's why I do it. I run, I hide, here's why I do it" then you can actually start to work on that you can actually process that you can untangle that, and then you could try to do something different, you know, in your next relationship. And that's, that's where growth happens. And change. Yeah.

Robin | This next, the next community question I have is, is regarding patterns as well, I think: "I'm a 35 year old male, currently single, and I've recently been reflecting on past relationships. I realize I've never felt truly happy or content in a long-term relationship. I have no idea what it feels like. I've always just kind of drifted along, going with the flow thinking "This is nice, she's pretty". These relationships have lasted two to seven years. I still like and respect these women and keep in touch, but I never felt we clicked. The closest I've ever felt to things being right. It was over 10 years ago, but the relationship was over after a few weeks, when I had to move for work. How do you know when your relationship is right? Am I chasing a pipe-dream?"

John | Oh, that's interesting. The beginning of that question made me very sad. It made me think a lot—

Robin | It's a long time to be with somebody and not...

John | and not—Kind of like this idea of just going through the motions, you know, being with someone because it's convenient. Or because you don't feel like you have choices, right? All of that. So many people are in relationships like that. Being with someone because you don't want to be alone. Like that kind of stuff, right? So that's, that makes me very sad. Being aware of that, and then I think the first question is: What does happy look like to you? What do you want? You know, what are you not willing to negotiate?

Many people like this person, just, I guess the word is 'settle'. Someone likes them. And they're like, "Oh, great. Someone chose me, I'm just gonna, you know, but it's like, it's okay". And relationships—I mean, you know, this—they're so hard already if you don't have a running start, if you don't have, you know, common values and chemistry and all this stuff, whatever is important to you. Man, like, it takes so much work to build. You gotta have a foundation so that investment is worth it.

Robin | Yeah, yeah. And so, the last of his question was, how do you know when your relationship is right? Am I chasing a pipe dream?

John | Well, I don't think it's like the I don't think there's a constant that you know, I think every day is a choice to love. And I think some days it's easy to love. And some days, it's it's hard. I think it's cumulative. Right? And I think you know, because you're dropping into your body and you're feeling it. I don't think it's a logical thing. I don't think it's a "good on paper" thing, or checking off boxes. I think it's, yeah, this person makes me feel safe. First of all, no one's perfect, no relationship's perfect, right. But "I like what I'm building with this person. Because it makes me a better version of myself. I like myself more in this relationship. I have a lot to give. I'm transparent. Also, that relationship is challenging me. It's not easy. I'm learning things from this marriage or from this relationship". Because that's the whole point of relationships, you know, they should sharpen us and challenge us. So I think it's different for everyone. But those are some of the things that I would look at.

Robin | Yeah, yeah. Sharpness and challenges. That's

John | Yes. You know, when when I hear people like, "Oh, we never fight". Like, it's a good thing. I'm like, "Oh, then something's wrong."

Robin | Yeah, yeah. It's not somebody to be just—because I think those of us that are in relationships when there's definitely some challenges, of course, it's two people, right? Yeah. And then you're going to start questioning your relationship—well, we do we definitely have conflicts. Well, there's nothing wrong with that.

John | Sure. "Oh, you never fight. You mean, you guys aren't showing up? You guys aren't showing each each other? You're true. You mean you're hiding? Yeah. Okay, I get it."

Robin | So you this is—I've got another quote here to share. And it's: "We want to love someone and that's okay. We're biologically built that way. What's not okay is losing ourselves because we don't have someone to love, or losing ourselves in the person we have chosen to love."

John | Yeah. And also, that happens over time, right? We don't go into relationships saying, "Okay, in this one, I'm willing to lose myself". It's a slow drip, you know, it's years, right? But then we wake up one day, and we realize, "Oh, we've negotiated everything", or we realize, "I don't really know who I am", or "I'm just in this, but I'm kind of like a leaf floating into this relationship. I have no sense of self". So, it's important. And again, this is why I think the runway of being single is important because if you have built a life that doesn't hang on someone else, and you have connected or you are working on connecting to yourself and your passions, and you know all everything that that that is your definition of a whole person. Then when you find someone, you're not going into it, powerless, you're going into it as a whole being not as someone who's going to easily lose herself in someone else.

Robin | That's right. Something you say is: "There is a difference between compromise and compromise of self." And that's really what—right? If you continue to compromise yourself, you are going to be losing yourself eventually your relationship will go sideways.

John | Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Every relationship has compromised whether we're talking about friendships, relationships with our, you know, their family. But compromising self right? When you exchange your truth, for love, for membership for approval for validation, whatever. That's kind of the beginning I think of slowly losing yourself, right?Suppressing your voice, your wants your you know what you feel you deserve all of that. And so, yes, relationships require compromise, but not when you're compromising yourself.

Robin | Yeah. And you talk about how there's a difference between liking yourself, and loving yourself. I really know this. You see, that's really what the root of all of this, a lot of this, comes from, right is like: When you know yourself, and you take care of yourself, and you like yourself, and you do all these things that are very important to have—you feel whole, you bring into your relationships.

John | Yeah, I get pushback on this because I think not not everyone agrees with me. But the thing about love—and I know that with self betterment, you know, the concept of self love, because it's so commercialized to me almost means nothing now, because so many people say it the throwing in your face, it's become a bumper sticker, right?

Love is a choice. You know, we have, we know people that we love, but we don't really like, we have family members that we love, because they are our family. But we don't, don't doesn't mean we actually like them, right as people. Liking has to be earned. Right? And so when it comes to yourself, yeah, of course, you could love yourself. And that's a choice. I think it's harder to like yourself, I think it's more important to like yourself, liking yourself requires a journey. Loving yourself is just a decision. Because liking yourself is earned. Right? So that's why I say it's important to like yourself more so than to love yourself.

Robin | Yeah. And if you do talk about, you know, spending time growing, your mind, your body, your spirit, all those things combined on a daily basis, or regular basis, right? And that's all part of liking yourself, nurturing and caring for yourself, just like you would care for someone you love. You must be caring for yourself on a regular basis in all those areas.

John | Yeah, the relationship was self has that those components the the mind, body. You know, in elementary school, the laminated posters where it says "here's the four food groups, and this is what you need to eat for well balanced meal"? And I think, of course, later we find out those are made by I think meat and dairy. It's propaganda. But it's like that—it's like it you know, your relationship with yourself requires mind, body and soul requires the whole self. It's not just, you know, one thing that you're doing, but it's this idea of exploring, and connecting to a complete person.

Robin | Something that you talk about is one of one of your chapters is one of the most common mistakes in relationships is letting yourself go. This is so common, when like, especially long term relationships.

John | Yeah

Robin | You're, you know, next thing you know, you're 10 years in and 10 pounds heavier, you're not working out anymore. I mean, I'm absolutely guilty, I'm coming home or in wearing my joggers, like for the rest of the night. That's not gonna change. That's always been Yeah. That's fine, I think.

John | I know, you know what this is called Robin? It's called false advertising. Yeah. I think we all have a responsibility. And listen, you know, when we get to relationships, you know, I get it, takeout, Netflix, whatever. And, you know, there's comfort to that. I'm talking about really letting yourself go, I'm talking about, you know, not taking care of yourself. And it's less about aesthetics more about, I mean, people who don't take care of themselves, it's just not attractive, right? And so, who you were when you met the person, letting that go, is unfair and irresponsible, because that's not what your partner signed up for. Right? Why they were attracted to you is partly how you are in you, you taking care of yourself, and part of that is also you know, fanning the flames of what you're passionate about and going out and making a dent in the world and all that stuff. Right? And so if all that is gone slowly, then I don't know, I just think it's dishonest. That being said, we do go through winters, there are times that we are going to, you know, eat a lot of chips and sit on the couch and that's okay. It's part of life. But generally speaking, we have a responsibility to take care of ourselves for sure.

Robin | Yes, and it's all aspects. This is just like you said, this is not just physical, you know, if you one of the community questions is this: "What do you say or do if you're in a relationship and your partner is not taking care of themselves? How do you approach that? Lovingly? I have had many conversations with them about this, and nothing seems to be changing. Do you have advice? Or words on how to talk about this in the best way?

John | Yeah, I would say empathy and kindness is always the door to go into, you're not going into it like like what I just said, "this is false advertising", you're not going into it like, "hey, you're not who I fell in love with", right? You're not going into it with pointed fingers. I think you have to go into it with empathy and that maybe that person is going through a winter. Exploring what is going on inside, not blaming them for what's on the outside or what's not happening. And also leading by example, you know, ask yourself, are you taking care of yourself, you know, and then supporting your partner, asking, you know, coming from love in that, like, "I care about you is something wrong, how can I support you? You're, you know, not socializing with friends. You're not working out, you're eating like, shit. I'm worried about you". So it should be coming from a place of care and love. Not "What is this bullshit, I want my money back", you know,

Robin | Return policy. Something we talked about during the live IG was managing conflict. And I really like how you explained. Can you explain it again, John, just about having this safe, really just having this safe container?

John | Yeah, yeah. Fighting—I think people think fighting is a negative thing, and it's not about how many times we fight because we're going to fight, we should fight. It's about how we fight. So if we have the tools and ability to approach any conflict with love and resolve it, you know, where people aren't going to bed with resentment. Oh, man, that's, that's what's gonna make the relationship sustainable. I think it's one of the greatest tools. It's one of the primary colors, you know, and many people don't have this many people are very reactive, and they fight or like that, a couple that, you know, says we never fight the avoid fighting, of course, right. And so there's no growth in that. So, learning to fight in a healthy way that learning to, you know, resolve differences and use those differences to grow and evolve. That's, I think that's the nectar of a relationship.

Robin | Yep! So these next two community questions aren't necessarily about how to handle conflict, but there's definitely conflicting ways of being in this relationship. The first is what can I do when my partner chooses to surround themselves with bad people? My boyfriend has two guy friends that constantly overindulge in drugs and encourage my boyfriend to do as well. They've also encouraged him to cheat on me—Oof—there's been several times these friends have even come up to me and been rude and unkind. When my boyfriend doesn't see them as much. He's a much different person, kinder, sweeter, healthier person, I'm at a loss as to what to say or do in this situation.

John | Yeah, oh, that's tough, is most people go toward ultimatums, which I don't think is fair. I think what you can do is express how those relationships impact you how they make you feel, you know, how they're impacting your life, and then if your partner cares and loves you, they're going to consider that, you know, and it doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna, you know, end all relationships and do whatever you say, but it should be a factor your happiness, your well being since you're doing life together, should be a factor on who he chooses to surround himself with and invest in, you know? That being said, these are his relationships. So, you can't force someone to not be friends, you know, because they have history or whatever. Like, at the end of the day, it's his choice. But I think it's important to express how that relationship impacts you. Yes, yeah.

Robin | Varies, so important. The next question is about having kids: "My girlfriend and I have different views on what is the timeline to start a family and I'm getting scared to commit any further at this point in our relationship. I'm feeling ready more than ever to start a family but she's not there. I feel like we're in completely different timelines. And yet, I do see myself with her. It's kind of a heart versus reason dilemma. I'd love some perspective on this."

John | Yeah, I was just gonna have a blanket answer. Just don't have kids. Everyone don't have kids. No, I'm kidding. I have a two year old I'm like, "Oh my god, this is so hard". It's so much. It's also something that no one really talks about. They just post the cute photos of their kids. They don't, they don't talk about what they've lost and how hard it is and the sleepless nights. But anyway, I think people change their minds, you know, I'm 48. And I just, you know, two years ago, I had a kid, I was, I didn't think I was gonna have a kid, and then I did. So I would leave room for that, you know, I wouldn't label this and stamp this as, you're never gonna have kids, I would keep it a conversation, and I would be open to people changing. And a lot of times in relationships, someone wants a kid like now, or this is when they really want what the other person doesn't. And then it flips and the other person comes around, and then suddenly you don't have a kid. And then you know, you don't want to have a kid with someone who doesn't really isn't, you know, ready or on the same team as you. So, I would wait, I would be patient, I would communicate, and when the timing is right, and both of you guys are on the same page, then do it.

Robin | And alternatively, you may have to, you may have to end the relationship if that if that doesn't change.

John | Sure. Sure. That's fair. I mean, if it's if it's a non negotiable, and that is, that is something that you want in your life, and the person is back and forth and ambivalent, and you feel like, Okay, I'm getting older. And then that Yeah, sure. That's enough. I mean, that's, it's it's people who want different things. And that's going to create drift. So...

Robin | Yeah. I have a few questions with dating. The first is about sex. I think this is such a common question and common conversation. "When if you're when you're dating somebody new, when is it? The best advice on when to take a relationship to the next level and sleep with that person? I've heard so many different viewpoints, on best time to and I'm curious what you think."

John | I think we should stay away from numbers, like, "Oh, how many days do you wait until you call someone back? How many days you wait until you have sex? You know, what I think it all comes down to you, and what works for you. And that may be on the first date, or that may be you know, a year later, whatever works for you. And you're honest about it. And that's your decision, and that decision is going to promote your relationship with self. That's all that matters. You know, I wouldn't force myself to do things because of society, or shoulds or this is the quote unquote "normal" I think the word normal is dangerous.

Robin | Mm hmm. So the next one is about, you know, just dating: "I'm dating in my 40s. We run up against many obstacles, kids work, sports, friends, finding the time together can be such a challenge. Do you have the best advice for ways to bridge the gaps, especially for someone whose love language is time spent? And it's, it's very difficult for these two people to come together and spend time with their busy lives?"

John | Yes

Robin | Especially if you're actually trying to get to know somebody new, right?

John | Yeah, Google Calendar. And you probably due to Robin, you guys are both busy. Everything is on that calendar. You know, this is when we do date night, this is when we go to lunch, this is... No, I think it's about a change in mindset. And the change in mindset is, and this comes from personal experience, try to find beauty in the contrast. So with my current partner, we are very different. We speak different love languages. We have different attachment styles, we have different humor. And at first there was a lot of resistance, I started comparing this to the old relationships, and I thought, "Okay, this maybe isn't gonna work, because we're so different". And then I realized, you know, what, there's actually beauty in the differences, you know, and what if I started to look at the differences, and start to lean into them, and really tried to find beauty in their contrast, instead of seeing our differences as a crowbar, you know, or a sign that we shouldn't be together. And once I started doing that, I started to appreciate things, or how she was I was very different than me, you know? And so I think that's, that's a big part of building something with someone. And also, I don't think that has anything to do with the question.

Robin | No I really like that, though, John, you know, beauty the contrast Yeah. And you do talk about creating new love experience, definitions of love, whether you're single, or in a relationship. So this is a new def—or you said your definition of love should be naturally evolving and changing.

John | Yes, yes. And, and I could talk about this for days because I am so passionate about this topic. We want to trace old love experiences just subconsciously because they smell familiar, because that's what we're used to. And usually young love was unhealthy low, right? We don't even—When we're young we're just going by feelings. We don't have tools. We don't have awareness, and so as we get older, if we don't create new love experiences, we're just going to chase our tail. We're just going to, you know—the only thing that's going to change our faces, and we're just going to create the same dynamic.

So if you want a new love experience, you actually have to give yourself one. So that includes who you pick, that includes how you love, I mean, so many choices, right? But I think if that's the North Star, if your goal isn't just to have hot sex, but your goal is to give yourself a new love experience so you're convincing your body, that there's something different so it's not just a logical thing. You are literally reconditioning and rewiring your body, where you're like, "Okay, this is what I want, I didn't know that existed, I just gave myself the experience and now that it's proof, I feel it, this is what I want". You're just gonna have a clearer picture of the kind of lemon and it's going to be different than what you're used to.

Robin | So creating new experiences so that you can create a new definition.

John | Yes. And and break free from old patterns.

Robin | Yeah. So how do you but how do you really do that, John? If you're, if you're single, and you're not, you know, you are. So you're looking for your partner, and you really, you desperately want to change your definition of love because you just keep looking into the past, right? So you're saying, like, just can you give us an example of something?

John | Yeah, I mean, one example is is what I just said about my struggle with labeling differences, because they're not the same. So if I didn't start finding beauty in the contrast, in this relationship, I would have broken up with her and I would have found someone who was similar, or who you know, someone that I was more used to, and then that would have just kind of traced old patterns. But, because I decided to lean into my discomfort, and actually find beauty in the differences. Now I'm creating a new love experience, right? And so once I swim past those breakers, I'm like, "Oh, this is different. I've never had this before. I actually like it. It's actually healthier". And so, a lot of people don't swim past that. A lot of people because it brings resistance in it, it's not what they're used to, they will label it and leave it. Creating a new love experience it's hard, because it's like, foreign and new and different, you know?

Robin | Yeah. My, my favorite part of your book is the last chapters. And you talk about, you know, getting a life, right? And this is, we just—so many of us are just like we just kind of get swept up in our, in our jobs, and our families. And these are all very important things. But it's like, what about you? What fuels you? Right? You say, "Because there's more to life than just who we choose to love." Right? Yeah, many of us forget that a rich, colorful life doesn't just happen. We have to engage in it for color to appear. And it requires effort and intention. Yes, yes.

John | Yes. And you know, that's all that's, that's a lot of times, that's a very strong when we're single, and then we get into a relationship, it kind of goes out the window. But also, when we're single, a lot of people don't have a life because they're just focusing on trying to find someone and that becomes their life and their line with desperation. One of the things that really helped me when I was single, and it was like a mantra, I said it over and over again, it's: "Number one, where are you going? And then number two, who's going with you?" If you reverse that order, you're going to be going by yourself. So one of the things that when I was married, she was the sun I revolved around I put her up on a pedestal. "I'm going with her" was first and then "Where am I going" was second. So passion, purpose, things that are greater than me was was second. So when that relationship didn't work out that my whole life crumbled, right? "Where are you going? What are you doing?" That should be first. "Who are you going to share your life with?" I think should be second. Yeah. Because then it doesn't hang on a relationship, you know.

Robin | And maintaining that in your relationship is so important. You talk about the three things right? For keeping your your own life and your own self going is "joy", which is so important in in your life, "engagement", and "meaning and self worth".

John | Yeah, and I and I say those three things because I never had those things. I didn't know the joy is produced. It just doesn't fall on your lap. You have to go out and create a space for joy. Engagement: to actually engage. Eye contact, you know, conversations engage in life. Don't just be in your head. I just was in my head the whole day, right? And then, meaning was that the third one meaning?

Robin | Yeah

John | I don't remember what I wrote!

Robin | Yep! It's meaning and self worth.

John | Building a life on meaning what what matters to you what's meaningful? And also when you when you meet someone, this is also what makes people attractive. You know? If someone isn't able to produce joy, they have no meaning in their lives and not engaging. What are they? They're just, you know, cardboard cutout like, what are they? And so, you if you have these things, working toward these things, you're going to be more attractive, and there's a higher chance you will meet someone, you know?

Robin | Yeah, I've been remarried since August, so very new in our relationship—

John | Congratualations, yeah.

Robin | Oh, thank you. And we had a baby in May, and he ended up in ICU for six weeks after he was born, he was very sick. And, you know, I've got two other daughters that were having a very hard time with blending our family, it was just one thing after another. And I said to my best friends who I was missing, and you know, just that contact, right?Talk about like, engagement. I was definitely so immersed in all this stuff that was going on, but I was missing the engagement piece with people outside of you know, that my sick son and all the drama going on in my family, but also the joy. Like it was a huge piece that I was missing. And I said that I said like, "I need to create more joy, I feel this huge it's like, your get sucked under. Right?" And it can be the little things, but it's just so important in life. All those three things are key.

John | Yeah, absolutely. And I from from my own personal experiences. It's not like it's something that I studied or read the book. It's through my own life and lacking those things where I realized how important they were.

Robin | Yeah. So I got one last community question before we before we say goodbye. Yeah. And this person is asking, I feel like I am pretty balanced when it comes to maintaining my life and wholeness in my relationship. What if my partner is not doing the same. He used to have time with friends, follow his joy through activities he enjoyed, working out, it's affecting our sex life, the fun we have together, and our relationship. Do you have advice on how I can help him engage in his own life outside of our home and family?

John | Yes: "Here's what I'm seeing. I care about you. I'm worried about you. How can I support you? What is going on? Here are the differences that I'm seeing? You're no longer whatever spending time with your friends, you know, you're, you're, you're noticing that you're not happy? You're not who you used to be? How can I support you?" So I think coming at it more from love and support, not, you know, "Get off your ass, I'm not attracted to you anymore". So coming at it from a holding instead of grabbing.

Robin | Yeah, yeah. I love that.

John | And if the person doesn't change his or her life, over a certain amount of time, and it's now the person is taking you hostage and your quality of life, it's okay to say, "Hey, you know, this, um, this doesn't work for me anymore, too."

Robin | Yeah, and getting getting therapy around that. And that's the other thing. We talked about the importance of therapy, if you can afford it, and you've got you know, you can invest in that in your relationship and with yourself and with your partner. It's that's that can be such a game changer.

John | Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely changed my life.

Robin | Yeah. Well, I'm just so happy that we had this time together, John, and I would recommend anybody download, listen to your book, or read your book, but I just I got so much out of it even I mean, I'm in a relationship, but it was just really, I thought the biggest lesson was about: TI is about yourself, right? Self care, and going inward self reflection, so that you can be your best self in your relationship, whether you whether you are in one or not in one.

John | Right. Yeah. Robin, thank you for having me on your podcast, and thank you for all the work that you're doing. It's important, and yeah, thank you.

Robin | So John, what are you working on right now that we can we can point everybody to your website and what are in your work life? What is your your passion these days?

John | Yeah, we just I just turned in another book. It's called "It's Not Me, It's You" and it's my first relationship book. And I wrote it with my partner who's also a therapist, so that comes out in September.

Robin | Oh that's fantastic. Yeah. So you're in Vanessa wrote the book together?

John | Yeah. Yeah, it's very, it was terrifying because it's very transparent. I didn't want to, you know, we said "if we're going to write a relationship book, we don't want to be the quote unquote, therapist, experts who are coming at people, we want to come with people. So that means we need to show all our wounds and shortcomings and you know, all of that and so on". Yeah, it was hard to write it because we had to be so vulnerable and transparent.

Robin | Wow, I can't wait to to listen to it. I hope it's gonna be an audiobook.

John | Yeah it will for sure!

Robin | Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you again, John. And I know we'll see each other again soon. Yeah, thank you. Take care. Bye.

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The Real Love Ready Podcast is recorded and edited by Anna Lafreniere transcriptions I otter.ai and edited by Anna Lafreniere. We, at Real Love Ready, acknowledge and express gratitude for the Coast Salish people, the stewards of the land on which we work in play, and encourage everyone listening could take a moment to acknowledge and express gratitude for those that have stewarded and continue to steward the land that you live on as well.